August 25, 2025 ā¢ 31 mins
Rachael Geiser pulls back the curtain on her 26-year career as a criminal defense investigator, working on America's most notorious trials including the West Memphis Three and Lester Street cases.
- Explains the role of a criminal defense investigator who works with attorneys on first-degree murder cases
- Details how investigations have evolved with body cameras becoming standard equipment for police around 2018
- Describes her educational journey through Rhodes College and University of Memphis before entering criminal defense
- Shares how she worked on Damien Echols' case from 2005 until his release and continues to assist when needed
- Discusses her long-held opposition to the death penalty and commitment to preventing wrongful convictions
- Emphasizes that criminal defense investigation is a profession requiring specialized skills developed over time
- Explains how telling stories from her career can help others navigate the criminal justice system
- Previews future episodes that will explore her experiences with high-profile cases in more detail
Join us next time as Rachael shares her introduction to the West Memphis Three case and the extraordinary journey that led to Damien Echols' release.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tony (00:03):
For the last 26 years, Rachael Geiser has worked in the
shadows of America's mostnotorious trials.
As a criminal defenseinvestigator, she stood beside
defense teams in cases thatshook the country Damian Eccles
in the West Memphis Three, JesseDotson in the Lester Street
case and many more that nevermade the headlines but changed
lives forever.
Let's pull back the curtain andhear what really happened.
(00:26):
Welcome to Geiser Files Files.
Hello, welcome to episode oneof Geiser Files Files.
I'm very excited.
How are you doing, Rachael?
Rachael (00:38):
I'm doing great, Tony.
How about you?
Tony (00:40):
Oh, fantastic Thanks.
I'm excited to be doing thiswith you.
It's a long time coming right.
Rachael (00:45):
Yes, it is a long time coming.
We've talked about this for atleast.
Tony (00:48):
For me it's been several years, for you it's been 26.
Rachael (00:53):
That we've talked about this.
Tony (00:56):
I'm kidding.
Can I give you my impressionsfirst and why I want to do this?
Yeah, I think I've been a bigpodcast fan for a while now and
I keep hearing people talk aboutstuff that I know my wife knows
more than you, right?
Rachael (01:15):
It's a big podcast world, from what I understand.
I'm very new to it.
I just I mean other than as amom, I mean my podcast world
until recently was all thingscollege admissions.
I'm a quasi expert on that,honestly.
Tony (01:34):
Yeah, you really are.
You can make a lot of moneyconsulting getting people into
elite universities.
Rachael (01:39):
Yeah, I mean, we managed it with two of our
children, right?
Tony (01:43):
We did.
Our oldest son recentlygraduated from Vanderbilt
University.
Rachael (01:48):
Woo.
Tony (01:49):
Anchor down.
Rachael (01:50):
Anchor down.
Tony (01:52):
Very proud of him.
Very proud of him With a degreein computer science.
He's now active duty in theNavy defending our nation.
Rachael (01:59):
Yes, we're very, very, very, very proud of him.
Tony (02:02):
Our younger son is Can.
Rachael (02:04):
I say it and then you say it.
Our younger son is a student atPrinceton University.
I was going to say it thePrinceton University.
Tony (02:12):
That was a weird pause that you gave.
Rachael (02:14):
Yeah, well, because after anyone says Princeton,
what do you say?
Tony (02:19):
Anchor down.
I don't know what do I say?
Rachael (02:21):
Maybe you've heard of it, I blew it.
How did you do that?
You ever heard of it Right, soyeah, so anyway, college
admissions yes, we're very proudof him as well.
Tony (02:42):
He's a sophomore doing good stuff At Princeton.
It's a little private school inNew Jersey.
This isn't about that.
Rachael (02:50):
No, I was just saying.
My podcast world up untilrecently was that.
And the younger one's alsothinking he wants to be a
pre-med.
So I've been learning all aboutpre-med and Army and all things
Army.
He's an Army ROTC, so I knownothing.
You're a Marine.
Gabe is a.
Tony (03:08):
Sailor.
Rachael (03:08):
Naval officer, and Jacob who went Army.
I don't know crap about Army.
Tony (03:14):
Yeah, nobody wants to be a Marine anymore.
It's too hard to A littledisappointing.
Rachael (03:18):
So much running, so much running, so yeah.
So that's until recently.
I started listening more tothis true crime podcast world
True crime.
I live it.
I live it.
Tony (03:33):
I was going to ask you that's my first question then.
Who do you think you aretalking about?
True crime issues?
Rachael (03:40):
Well, I am a criminal defense investigator.
I'm a licensed PI in the stateof Tennessee private
investigator, but I have spenthalf of my life over half of my
life now doing criminal defenseinvestigations.
I work on criminal cases fordefense attorneys to get them
knowledgeable about the facts oftheir cases.
Tony (04:01):
Get them knowledgeable about the facts of their cases.
So yeah, go into that a littlebit.
What does a criminal defenseinvestigator do?
Rachael (04:09):
Well, on most of my cases I either get hired by the
defense attorney, which isn'tthat often, or appointed by the
courts.
In Tennessee.
I've worked in Arkansas otherplaces in the southeast,
primarily working for defenseattorneys to look at their cases
.
Put together a list ofinvestigative tasks I think
(04:31):
needs to be done and then go doit.
That involves witnessinterviews, background research,
getting videos, establishingalibis, if there is one.
Tony (04:43):
Videos is a big deal nowadays, right?
Rachael (04:45):
Yeah, it's really changed the whole landscape of
investigations, in my opinion.
Tony (04:52):
I see you watching a lot of body cam video.
Rachael (04:55):
Yeah, I watch a lot of body cam.
In Memphis with the MemphisPolice Department, they started
wearing body cam around 2018.
Police department they startedwearing body cam around 2018.
So every case that I get now,we get hours and hours and hours
body cam for every officer whowas involved in the case, with
the exception of homicide.
So if a homicide detectivestill is interviewing a witness,
(05:18):
they don't necessarily have toturn their body cam on.
Tony (05:21):
They almost always give us videos of Do you want to hear
my body cam impersonation?
Rachael (05:26):
Yeah, just not so loudly in my ear.
Tony (05:29):
Okay, I'm not going to do it then but it's mostly
overweight men running throughthe woods.
Rachael (05:35):
But that's not what happens on the body.
Yeah, that is your impression.
Tony (05:39):
That is mostly what it is.
Rachael (05:40):
I don't actually get a lot of running police officers.
I get a lot of police officers.
All of my cases I should saythis all of my cases for the
past eight years now have beenfirst-degree murder cases.
Tony (05:54):
First-degree murder cases.
Rachael (05:55):
Yeah, so I'm really no, what makes?
Tony (05:56):
a murder first-degree.
Miles of forethoughtpremeditation.
Rachael (06:01):
The state decided to charge them that way.
I mean, that's what.
Tony (06:04):
Okay, Well what are in their estimation?
Rachael (06:08):
what makes it first degree A premeditated, you know,
murder, something like that.
Tony (06:12):
We'll probably talk about the degrees of murder.
How many degrees are there?
Rachael (06:16):
Well, in Tennessee you have first, then second, then
voluntary manslaughter, thenreckless, then criminally
negligent homicide.
Those are the levels you couldbe if you go to trial and you
ask the court to include lesserincluded offenses in the jury
instructions.
That's what you could get, notalways, but you could if the
(06:37):
proof played out that way Iimagine we'll talk a lot more
about stuff like that in futureepisodes.
Tony (06:44):
You've been a criminal defense investigator for 26
years.
How do you get into somethinglike that?
How did you get into it?
Rachael (06:51):
Well, try not to make this too boring.
So I graduated undergrad fromRhodes College locally in
Memphis in 1995 with a degree inpolitical science.
Tony (07:05):
Quick side note yes, do you know who also graduated from
Rhodes?
Rachael (07:12):
I do know one famous person.
Tony (07:15):
Current Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett.
Rachael (07:18):
Yes, Justice Barrett.
Tony (07:20):
You went to school together.
Rachael (07:21):
We did.
She graduated a year before me,and I did not know her though.
Tony (07:27):
You didn't know her.
Rachael (07:27):
I did not, unfortunately.
That would have been awesome toknow her.
I mean, she's a US SupremeCourt justice.
I mean, come on, it's amazing.
What an accomplishment.
Honestly, I mean talk aboutsomeone who I mean, what kind of
podcast could she have if shewas having a podcast?
That would be awesome.
Someone who, I mean, what kindof podcast could she have if she
was having a podcast?
That would be awesome, I'dlisten for sure.
Tony (07:45):
Alright, I interrupted you .
You went to Rhodes University.
Rachael (07:50):
I went to Rhodes College.
Tony (07:51):
Rhodes College.
Thank you, Go Lynx.
Rachael (07:53):
Woohoo, I played basketball there.
Tony (07:57):
You did play basketball there, I did Got that.
Rachael (08:02):
Yes, I did, I played basketball.
Tony (08:03):
You should mention that more often.
You went to Rhodes College.
You played basketball in the90s, Graduated with a political
science degree.
Rachael (08:11):
Which you can do nothing with Other than go to
law school.
Tony (08:14):
I don't know if that's true.
Rachael (08:17):
I didn't want to be apologetic.
I don't know what I wasthinking.
It's so different.
When we raised our kids, whatdid I tell them?
Tony (08:24):
R-O-I Return return on investment.
Do something that's going tohelp you make money.
Rachael (08:29):
That's for the other podcast, though the one about
raising kids in collegeadmissions no.
So after that I moved to Arizona, did undergrad I'm sorry.
I took two years off betweenundergrad and grad school and
when I was in Arizona I workedfor a behavioral health agency
called ComCare and my caseloadas a case manager.
(08:49):
My caseload was individuals whowere charged with crimes who
also might suffer from mentalillnesses.
That got me interested in goingto grad school to get a
master's in criminology,criminal justice, which I did at
the university of memphis,graduated from there in may of
1999 with the math, you call it.
Tony (09:10):
You called it criminology or criminal justice really
criminal justice is there adifference?
Rachael (09:14):
I took.
Yeah, there is a difference.
Uh, interesting.
Yeah, we did a lot of theory.
There were a lot of theoryclasses that I took that sounds
fun, theory sounds fun I alsoalso took several psychology
classes while I was doing mygraduate studies as well, which
I really liked.
Side note, I actually my sisterfor one of my psychology
(09:34):
experience in grad schoolprojects I had to do.
She was struggling in algebraand so I did this whole like
psychology experiment with herto improve her grade and it did,
it worked.
Tony (09:47):
Well, don't keep that a secret.
Well, that's not for thispodcast.
Rachael (09:51):
right, I have all these other things too.
Yeah, I mean, how long is thispodcast?
Tony (10:00):
Okay, so that's your education background.
You come back to MemphisUniversity of Memphis
criminology.
Rachael (10:09):
Go Tigers.
Tony (10:11):
Criminal justice MBA.
It's a master's in criminaljustice.
Rachael (10:16):
Yes, I did that and I had the intention of working for
a federal agency.
Specifically, I wanted to workfor the FBI.
I had a calling.
I really, really, really wantedto work on missing children,
kidnapping cases.
That happened a lot back in theday, like when we were growing
(10:36):
up.
Tony (10:36):
I wonder if it still does.
We just don't hear about it.
You don't hear about it thatmuch.
I mean you and I both, we hadthe whole milk carton thing
growing up.
Remember that.
Rachael (10:43):
And you and I both talked about it and we've both
almost been kidnapped.
Tony (10:46):
I know, isn't that weird?
Yeah, we'll tell that's anotherepisode.
Yeah.
Rachael (10:49):
But I mean anyway.
So that's something I reallyreally wanted to do and I took
the psychological exam.
Tony (10:56):
How'd that go?
Rachael (10:57):
They tell me I passed it.
I mean, who knows really, but Igot shelved because they said
they went on a hiring freeze.
That might have been a way ofletting me down, I don't really
know, but they said they were ona hiring freeze.
Tony (11:07):
I would think they don't have much qualms about saying no
.
Rachael (11:11):
You think that if they were just like get out of here,
they would have said nah, youare not a fit, yeah, yeah.
Well, they did not say that tome.
They said they were on a hiringfreeze.
Tony (11:19):
How much different would your life have been had you
gotten into the FBI?
Rachael (11:26):
So much different.
I'm sure I wouldn't have stayedhere.
Most likely initially I wouldhave had to Could have been
anywhere in the country, trained, gone to Quantico first right
and then trained.
And who knows?
And then who knows what theywould have put me into doing?
Tony (11:38):
Quantico is also where they train Marine Corps officers
into doing.
Rachael (11:43):
Quantico is also where they train Marine Corps officers
.
Did you know that?
I did know that.
Yeah, gabe actually went to agraduation of his Marine.
That's where he went last year.
Was it last year I?
Think that was yeah, so Ididn't know what I was going to
do.
This is I'm about to graduate.
It's April, I think, of 1999.
And I was waiting tables at arestaurant in Memphis, thought I
(12:06):
guess I'll just do that for alittle while while I figure this
out.
You know, and Ron Lacks ofInquisitor Inc was asked by one
of my professors, dr Vandiver,to come in and talk about what
he does at his privateinvestigation firm Inquisitor.
And he did.
He came in, spoke about all thethings he does surveillance,
(12:27):
insurance, investigationsotherwise known as subrogation
and the criminal defense teamthat he has.
At that time it was really justa few of them.
It was Ron doing the factinvestigation.
Tony (12:40):
Kind of visionary huh.
Rachael (12:41):
Yeah, no, I mean he really, I got a hand ron.
Tony (12:45):
It didn't end well, which we may or may not talk about
later, but I mean, you know, Ican't take that away from him.
Rachael (12:49):
I worked there for many years and then left, but ron
was a good investigator.
He was and he was a goodbusiness man, obviously, um, so
he made this firm and he hadthis team.
He really his pet project, Ithink really was working on
capital cases.
So at that time in tennesseethere was the capital resource
(13:11):
project which provided resourcesand funding to investigators to
help attorneys on their capitalcases.
And back then we're talking theearly, not in 90s there was a
lot of death penalty cases.
I mean people were noticing fordeath.
Well, attorneys were, attorneygenerals were noticing for death
on all kinds of cases.
I remember for a period of timeyou had to get a lot of capital
(13:34):
cases on, you know, felonymurders.
Tony (13:37):
Were there more crimes being committed that warranted
the death penalty, or were theyjust more bloodthirsty?
Rachael (13:45):
Oh no, I mean, I would not say that there were more
worthy cases back then thanthere are now.
No way, I just think that Ithink the pendulum swings.
Tony (13:55):
They were more willing to.
Rachael (13:56):
Yeah, I think the pendulum swings to some extent
with society's thoughts on thedeath penalty, like even you can
see it.
It has in my personal lifegreatly yeah, right, I mean look
at what happened, what'shappened in memphis.
This is definitely getting offtopic, but after the time.
So covet happened, right and Iremember you know there was a
(14:19):
lot of crime.
Remember there's a lot going onin this house there was a lot
of crime in this house yeah no,there wasn't.
so what are you talking about?
But in memphis there was a lotof things happening crime wise
in memphis at that time and, um,you know a lot of things
happening and then tyree nicholshappened, can I?
Tony (14:41):
summarize Tyree Nichols.
Rachael (14:43):
Well, as best you can.
I mean, I did not work onTyree's case.
Tony (14:47):
I got you.
I suddenly am drawing a blank.
I know that he, oh he walkedinto a store allegedly Tyree.
Yeah, am I wrong?
Rachael (14:58):
Oh no, I'm so wrong.
Holy cow, no Tyree.
So wrong.
Tony (15:01):
Holy cow, no.
Tyree Nichols was well.
He was brutally murdered bypolice officers after a traffic
stop.
Gone bad.
Rachael (15:12):
Yes, in Memphis Most of it on video, maybe all of it,
but I've only watched thesegments they put out in the
news when they released thevideo, when DA Morrow did that.
But I actually skipped somebecause during covid there was
george floyd first, right,george floyd happened and then
everyone like police defundingall this kind of stuff.
(15:34):
So there, that happened what aweird time that was weird, yeah.
And then tyree happened and Iactually, after Tyree Nichols'
case happened, I actually sat inor volunteered for some sort of
informational session that theDepartment of Justice had with.
They wanted to get input fromthe defense community about
(15:57):
police officers and how can webetter train police officers to
handle or de-escalate situationsand they went to people like
you yeah, they asked for ourinput and public defenders and
stuff yeah, and so Iparticipated in one of the
sessions and I said and gettingback to you know body cam stuff.
I said the best way and I stillbelieve this to train an officer
(16:19):
better on how they'reportraying themselves in the
communities, to have them watchtheir own body cam.
I mean, I've watched enoughbody cam of officers.
I can tell you which officershandle situations better by
watching their body cam,obviously.
So if I can do that, theyshould.
What have you like?
Can you imagine if you were towear a video around all day long
(16:40):
and then go back and see howyou interacted with people?
Tony (16:42):
Yeah, I mean, you learn from that, you would think right
If I'd had a body cam on as aserver or bartender, you know.
Rachael (16:49):
Oh God, we could make money on that, Tony.
It would have been horrible.
Tony (16:53):
right, you're hilarious.
I can't imagine like that kindof high stress situation that
they are often cops are often in, and then uh, yeah, and then
you, oh, here's a recording ofwhat might have been the worst
day of your life and I'vepitched this idea many times.
Rachael (17:09):
Maybe they are watching their own body cam, I have no
idea, but I felt like that wasthe best way to get them to at
least open their eyes a littlebit to how they are being
perceived.
You know so.
So that happened, and so thenAmy Weirich was our DA, and
during Amy's tenure you couldeven have, you could see how the
(17:30):
notices for death were droppingoff over time.
But during the George Floyd,tyree Nichols thing, and then DA
Mulroy was elected and he isknown as a progressive DA and
very anti-death penalty and henoticed for death on two of the
first cases that you know,happened after he was elected
(17:52):
and then very rarely since.
But neither one of thoseindividuals that got noticed for
death after his election are ondeath row.
They both have since settledtheir cases Interesting.
Yeah, we should have a longerepisode on death row.
Tony (18:02):
They both have since settled their cases Interesting.
We should have a longer episodeabout death penalties.
I was about to give my opinionon it.
Rachael (18:09):
Yeah, we're getting off topic.
Tony (18:11):
I'll earn the right to give that opinion later.
We're talking about how youbecame a criminal defense
investigator.
Ron Lacks came and got you.
Rachael (18:18):
He did.
He gave me the job, so hetalked about what he did.
He had an opening on his teamAt that time.
It was just Ron Denise who wasan attorney, Was it?
Tony (18:26):
because of your affiliation with Ron that you
were exposed to maybe the mosthigh-profile case you've ever
worked on, right?
Is that fair?
Rachael (18:35):
Oh for sure, yeah, that's because of Ron.
Tony (18:37):
What case was?
Rachael (18:38):
that Well.
West Memphis 3, damien's case.
I worked on Damien Echols' caseas his investigator from
November of 2005 until wellrecently.
I still you know do what'sasked of me when they need
something.
If I can help out, I definitelydo Try to.
Tony (18:56):
Yeah, because most of the work they would need is in this
area.
Right yeah sometimes.
And who else would they get todo that?
Rachael (19:02):
Yeah, I mean mean they reach out to me.
Of course they've used otherpeople as well.
I think there have been otherinvestigators and jason has his
own investigators.
I'm not sure if dan stidham hasor jesse has used anyone.
I know it well in the in recentyears.
I should say um, I know onjason's case there was a man
named john Harden who workedvery hard.
(19:24):
He was a nice guy.
I like John.
Yeah.
So yeah, there's been a lot ofpeople, there's been a lot of
collaboration.
There's some things I do know,some things I don't, and I've
had just a lot of experiences.
And growing that happened, Imean think about it.
I came on that case in 2005.
Growing that happened, I meanthink about it I came on that
(19:44):
case in 2005 what year, is itright now?
20, 25, yeah, that's 20 years ofbeing exposed to a lot of highs
and lows.
On that one, well, on that one,yes, for sure, and on, and it
ended on a high note, obviously,when they were released, um,
but yeah, along the way, andeven during that time period
when you know the Damian, jasonand Jessen were released, I had
(20:07):
all these other things going onas well.
Just another high profile caseI worked Jesse Dodson.
Um, he had actually gone todeath row, um, sentenced to
death, to die six times over.
So that was not fun and um.
Tony (20:21):
So, yeah, a lot of highs and lows, for sure wow, yeah,
some of it's hard to talk about,but, um, I think it's important
that you do.
You've said, uh, 26 years, 20years on the west memphis three,
you've never.
You've done some interviews andstuff for other people's
projects, but you've never doneyour own.
Rachael (20:42):
I've never done my own project, never written my own
book, never written an article.
Tony (20:47):
Why now I?
Rachael (20:48):
have lots of thoughts about it.
Tony (20:49):
Why didn't you?
Why now?
Why wait until now?
Rachael (20:54):
Well, I think it's probably a lot of reasons that
came into it.
I don't think I had thebandwidth to even contemplate
doing telling anything about myexperiences with any case until
now.
I mean, I'm 52.
Our kids are grown and I stillthink this.
(21:17):
But these clients' storiesDamien's story, jesse's story
they are their stories.
That is their story to tell.
I think I'm finally starting tolearn that I did play a part,
obviously, in what's happened.
Tony (21:33):
I think a big part Bad for .
Rachael (21:35):
Jesse, honestly Good for Damien and that part of my
part of the story I can tell andI can own and there is merit in
it for other people to hear.
Tony (21:49):
Yeah, I get what you're saying about it being you know.
So let's say Damien, right, ifhe's going to talk about what
it's like to be a prisoner andto be locked in the same four
foot by four foot room for 18years.
You know that's.
You know you shut up and listen, right when he talks about that
.
But you know handling all theinformation, you know collating
(22:17):
that and pulling the signal outof the noise.
Right, you have a lot ofauthority to speak on stuff like
that.
Rachael (22:27):
Yes, my experiences are my own and for the longest time
I didn't own them and I knowyou hate that.
You hate when I say experiences.
Tony (22:36):
I don't know, why?
Rachael (22:36):
Why do you hate that?
Tony (22:37):
My experiences are my own.
No, that's fine.
Rachael (22:40):
I don't hate it, okay, but those are the stories I can
tell because that's myperspective, right?
It's sort of like it's notuncommon for you and I to talk
about something that happened tous, you know, years ago and
sometimes I don't even rememberit Right and you and to you it
(23:00):
was a very important moment and,for whatever reason, that was
your perception or somethingthat was meaningful to you, in
whatever experience that was foryou that I might not even
remember.
Yeah, that happens a lotactually I don't know why that
is right, so I think I'mstarting to own that part of it.
Tony (23:17):
I don't think you love me very much.
Rachael (23:21):
No, I just think that some things stick better than
others, and even for me on casesit's time to talk about it yeah
, I think it's time I findmyself telling stories to people
that's a good sign.
I find myself wanting to with myfriend, glory Shuttles, who
(23:42):
also worked on the West Memphis3 case, and at some point I plan
to ask her to be on the show ifwe make more than one episode
right, because she has lots ofstories, always has, and so
Glory worked on Damien's casewhen it happened, right.
I mean, she and Ron workedtogether on Damien's case and
she had all.
She has all these stories aboutthat time period.
(24:04):
She has all kinds of storiesabout all kinds of things that
she did and places she went,people she talked to that are
just beyond the whodunit.
It's not always about thewhodunit, it's about the
interaction.
Tony (24:21):
What's about the drama?
Well, yeah, things that happento you in the places that you
are Whodunit is not all of thedrama, right?
Rachael (24:27):
no, no, so um glory, and for years.
You know, I met glory when shewas in her 40s.
She's retired.
A few years ago she actuallyworked with me at the public
defender's office for a periodof time before she retired.
She can't help but tell stories.
(24:48):
And that's how kind of I alwaysknew her to be, and I find
myself doing that, so I don'tknow if it's something that
comes with age or just over timeyou are starting to see the
best way to teach other peoplearound you attorneys, other
investigators, clients thatyou're talking to stories about
other things you've done thatare somehow relevant to that
(25:11):
situation as well.
And so I got all these stories.
Tony, you want to hear some?
Tony (25:15):
of them.
Yeah, I'd like to hear them.
Okay, so let's say, we keepdoing the podcast and we do one
episode, and then we do 10, andthen we do 100, right, and it's
a huge success.
Rachael (25:30):
Do I have 100 stories?
I don't know.
Yeah, probably I'll carry theshow Okay, thanks.
I didn't need that.
Tony (25:37):
What does that mean to you ?
What is success?
Rachael (25:41):
I think the success would be having people see that
what I do for a living as acriminal defense, how I've spent
most of my half of my life nowis a profession.
It's not just a job.
This is something that you knowcomes with experience too.
(26:06):
You know how to talk to people.
I mean, not everybody can justshow up to someone's house,
knock on the door and ask themto talk about what might be the
worst moment of their lives.
That is not something that alot of people can do and you get
better at it as you do it more,and some people can never do it
.
This is a profession.
(26:27):
Profession.
It is an important part of thecriminal justice system.
It if you, if you as a defenseattorney, you know you have an
investigator and they're doingtheir job and they're doing it
well, you will be prepared.
And if you're reading thematerial and you, you know
listening to them, they've metwith the witnesses, they know
(26:48):
the case, they should, and it isimportant.
So, long term, if I were to sayhow I want to, where I would
want to go with this is to talkto other investigators, or even
attorneys or clients, if they'reallowed their mothers, their
(27:09):
family members, if they havequestions about their cases and
they want some feedback.
Tony (27:14):
I want to lend an ear and Offer advice, yeah, consulting
essentially Sure, yeah, freeconsulting.
Rachael (27:23):
Yeah, I mean this is just a show that we're doing
consulting.
Yeah, I mean, this is just ashow that we're doing and it's
something that I feel like I canhelp with.
Tony (27:34):
I'd like to yeah, I think you're uh really good at there's
always hope, right yes there'salways something you can do.
There's the state has a burdento prove stuff and you're going
to make them do it well, thereshould be a reminder about that
right I think I've always beenthis way.
Rachael (27:51):
I think about when I was in college and I was in um
professor pullman'sconstitutional law class and he
was very anti-death penalty.
I've always been anti-deathpenalty and I was raised
catholic, I think you know.
I don't know if that hasanything to do with it, but I've
never actually thought that thedeath penalty was a way to
(28:11):
serve justice in any form.
So we were in class and hethrew out a statistic.
I think he said something likeat that time maybe there was
some study that showed maybe twopercent of people who were
executed on death row were laterfound out to be innocent.
And he threw that out there,made that statement and said
(28:32):
what do you guys think aboutthat?
And I think it.
For me, it took like a fewmoments to even process what he
was saying.
Are you kidding me?
2% that is ridiculous.
That's crazy.
One person for me is too manyright.
Yeah.
And I remember vividly therewas someone in the class, a girl
, I don't know who it was, buthad said something like well,
(28:55):
that doesn't seem like a lot,that's fine Holy cow.
I almost jumped out of my chair.
Tony (29:00):
Acceptable losses.
Rachael (29:02):
I couldn't believe it, right?
I mean, I didn't jump out of my, of course I did not attack
this poor girl, but I'm prettysure I gave her my opinion,
though immediately.
Yeah, you're good at that Iknow that about me has not
changed.
I don't even know if I'vecalmed down any, since you know
college days maybe.
So, yeah, I knew.
(29:24):
So this was definitelysomething I should be doing with
my life.
You know.
So, yeah, I knew.
So this was definitelysomething I should be doing with
my life.
I think it's always.
The system only works well theway it's supposed to be if
everyone is doing their job, andthat's from police officers to
judges, attorneys, prosecutors,clerks, jail custodians, judges,
(29:45):
clerks, jail custodians.
You know everyone should.
If everyone was doing their jobthe way it was supposed to be,
then we would not have innocentpeople go to jail or people
overcharged, and we you and Iboth know that doesn't happen.
But as long as I play a littlebit of part in that to make sure
I'm doing my job, then there'sa check on some part of the
system Right, and I remain thatcheck in some way.
Tony (30:08):
Yeah, I think that's a good reason.
Yeah, all right.
So that's who you are, that'swhat you do, we are going to do
another episode, do you think?
Or no.
Rachael (30:20):
Yeah.
Tony (30:20):
What do you want to talk about in the next one?
Rachael (30:22):
I think in the next episode.
Well, I think I should probablyjust talk a little bit about my
introduction.
I think people are interestedin knowing more about what I did
on Damien's case and, to theextent that I can talk about my
(30:43):
experiences, I will and I had alot of interesting times that I
can talk about and how I wasintroduced to the case and then
leading up to, obviously, hisrelease, which was an amazing
day, so I can talk about thatand see if people are interested
in hearing about that and seewhere that goes.
Tony (30:59):
Okay, We'll look forward to that.
Thank you for the.
I got nothing.
We got to come up with someoutro thing.
Rachael (31:07):
Yeah.
Tony (31:09):
All right, love, you mean it.
Rachael (31:10):
Love you mean come up with some outro thing.
Yeah, all right, love you meanit, love you mean it Bye guys,
bye.
For the last 26 years, Rachael Geiser has worked in the
shadows of America's mostnotorious trials.
As a criminal defenseinvestigator, she stood beside
defense teams in cases thatshook the country Damian Eccles
in the West Memphis Three, JesseDotson in the Lester Street
case and many more that nevermade the headlines but changed
lives forever.
Let's pull back the curtain andhear what really happened.
(00:26):
Welcome to Geiser Files Files.
Hello, welcome to episode oneof Geiser Files Files.
I'm very excited.
How are you doing, Rachael?
Rachael (00:38):
I'm doing great, Tony.
How about you?
Tony (00:40):
Oh, fantastic Thanks.
I'm excited to be doing thiswith you.
It's a long time coming right.
Rachael (00:45):
Yes, it is a long time coming.
We've talked about this for atleast.
Tony (00:48):
For me it's been several years, for you it's been 26.
Rachael (00:53):
That we've talked about this.
Tony (00:56):
I'm kidding.
Can I give you my impressionsfirst and why I want to do this?
Yeah, I think I've been a bigpodcast fan for a while now and
I keep hearing people talk aboutstuff that I know my wife knows
more than you, right?
Rachael (01:15):
It's a big podcast world, from what I understand.
I'm very new to it.
I just I mean other than as amom, I mean my podcast world
until recently was all thingscollege admissions.
I'm a quasi expert on that,honestly.
Tony (01:34):
Yeah, you really are.
You can make a lot of moneyconsulting getting people into
elite universities.
Rachael (01:39):
Yeah, I mean, we managed it with two of our
children, right?
Tony (01:43):
We did.
Our oldest son recentlygraduated from Vanderbilt
University.
Rachael (01:48):
Woo.
Tony (01:49):
Anchor down.
Rachael (01:50):
Anchor down.
Tony (01:52):
Very proud of him.
Very proud of him With a degreein computer science.
He's now active duty in theNavy defending our nation.
Rachael (01:59):
Yes, we're very, very, very, very proud of him.
Tony (02:02):
Our younger son is Can.
Rachael (02:04):
I say it and then you say it.
Our younger son is a student atPrinceton University.
I was going to say it thePrinceton University.
Tony (02:12):
That was a weird pause that you gave.
Rachael (02:14):
Yeah, well, because after anyone says Princeton,
what do you say?
Tony (02:19):
Anchor down.
I don't know what do I say?
Rachael (02:21):
Maybe you've heard of it, I blew it.
How did you do that?
You ever heard of it Right, soyeah, so anyway, college
admissions yes, we're very proudof him as well.
Tony (02:42):
He's a sophomore doing good stuff At Princeton.
It's a little private school inNew Jersey.
This isn't about that.
Rachael (02:50):
No, I was just saying.
My podcast world up untilrecently was that.
And the younger one's alsothinking he wants to be a
pre-med.
So I've been learning all aboutpre-med and Army and all things
Army.
He's an Army ROTC, so I knownothing.
You're a Marine.
Gabe is a.
Tony (03:08):
Sailor.
Rachael (03:08):
Naval officer, and Jacob who went Army.
I don't know crap about Army.
Tony (03:14):
Yeah, nobody wants to be a Marine anymore.
It's too hard to A littledisappointing.
Rachael (03:18):
So much running, so much running, so yeah.
So that's until recently.
I started listening more tothis true crime podcast world
True crime.
I live it.
I live it.
Tony (03:33):
I was going to ask you that's my first question then.
Who do you think you aretalking about?
True crime issues?
Rachael (03:40):
Well, I am a criminal defense investigator.
I'm a licensed PI in the stateof Tennessee private
investigator, but I have spenthalf of my life over half of my
life now doing criminal defenseinvestigations.
I work on criminal cases fordefense attorneys to get them
knowledgeable about the facts oftheir cases.
Tony (04:01):
Get them knowledgeable about the facts of their cases.
So yeah, go into that a littlebit.
What does a criminal defenseinvestigator do?
Rachael (04:09):
Well, on most of my cases I either get hired by the
defense attorney, which isn'tthat often, or appointed by the
courts.
In Tennessee.
I've worked in Arkansas otherplaces in the southeast,
primarily working for defenseattorneys to look at their cases
.
Put together a list ofinvestigative tasks I think
(04:31):
needs to be done and then go doit.
That involves witnessinterviews, background research,
getting videos, establishingalibis, if there is one.
Tony (04:43):
Videos is a big deal nowadays, right?
Rachael (04:45):
Yeah, it's really changed the whole landscape of
investigations, in my opinion.
Tony (04:52):
I see you watching a lot of body cam video.
Rachael (04:55):
Yeah, I watch a lot of body cam.
In Memphis with the MemphisPolice Department, they started
wearing body cam around 2018.
Police department they startedwearing body cam around 2018.
So every case that I get now,we get hours and hours and hours
body cam for every officer whowas involved in the case, with
the exception of homicide.
So if a homicide detectivestill is interviewing a witness,
(05:18):
they don't necessarily have toturn their body cam on.
Tony (05:21):
They almost always give us videos of Do you want to hear
my body cam impersonation?
Rachael (05:26):
Yeah, just not so loudly in my ear.
Tony (05:29):
Okay, I'm not going to do it then but it's mostly
overweight men running throughthe woods.
Rachael (05:35):
But that's not what happens on the body.
Yeah, that is your impression.
Tony (05:39):
That is mostly what it is.
Rachael (05:40):
I don't actually get a lot of running police officers.
I get a lot of police officers.
All of my cases I should saythis all of my cases for the
past eight years now have beenfirst-degree murder cases.
Tony (05:54):
First-degree murder cases.
Rachael (05:55):
Yeah, so I'm really no, what makes?
Tony (05:56):
a murder first-degree.
Miles of forethoughtpremeditation.
Rachael (06:01):
The state decided to charge them that way.
I mean, that's what.
Tony (06:04):
Okay, Well what are in their estimation?
Rachael (06:08):
what makes it first degree A premeditated, you know,
murder, something like that.
Tony (06:12):
We'll probably talk about the degrees of murder.
How many degrees are there?
Rachael (06:16):
Well, in Tennessee you have first, then second, then
voluntary manslaughter, thenreckless, then criminally
negligent homicide.
Those are the levels you couldbe if you go to trial and you
ask the court to include lesserincluded offenses in the jury
instructions.
That's what you could get, notalways, but you could if the
(06:37):
proof played out that way Iimagine we'll talk a lot more
about stuff like that in futureepisodes.
Tony (06:44):
You've been a criminal defense investigator for 26
years.
How do you get into somethinglike that?
How did you get into it?
Rachael (06:51):
Well, try not to make this too boring.
So I graduated undergrad fromRhodes College locally in
Memphis in 1995 with a degree inpolitical science.
Tony (07:05):
Quick side note yes, do you know who also graduated from
Rhodes?
Rachael (07:12):
I do know one famous person.
Tony (07:15):
Current Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett.
Rachael (07:18):
Yes, Justice Barrett.
Tony (07:20):
You went to school together.
Rachael (07:21):
We did.
She graduated a year before me,and I did not know her though.
Tony (07:27):
You didn't know her.
Rachael (07:27):
I did not, unfortunately.
That would have been awesome toknow her.
I mean, she's a US SupremeCourt justice.
I mean, come on, it's amazing.
What an accomplishment.
Honestly, I mean talk aboutsomeone who I mean, what kind of
podcast could she have if shewas having a podcast?
That would be awesome.
Someone who, I mean, what kindof podcast could she have if she
was having a podcast?
That would be awesome, I'dlisten for sure.
Tony (07:45):
Alright, I interrupted you .
You went to Rhodes University.
Rachael (07:50):
I went to Rhodes College.
Tony (07:51):
Rhodes College.
Thank you, Go Lynx.
Rachael (07:53):
Woohoo, I played basketball there.
Tony (07:57):
You did play basketball there, I did Got that.
Rachael (08:02):
Yes, I did, I played basketball.
Tony (08:03):
You should mention that more often.
You went to Rhodes College.
You played basketball in the90s, Graduated with a political
science degree.
Rachael (08:11):
Which you can do nothing with Other than go to
law school.
Tony (08:14):
I don't know if that's true.
Rachael (08:17):
I didn't want to be apologetic.
I don't know what I wasthinking.
It's so different.
When we raised our kids, whatdid I tell them?
Tony (08:24):
R-O-I Return return on investment.
Do something that's going tohelp you make money.
Rachael (08:29):
That's for the other podcast, though the one about
raising kids in collegeadmissions no.
So after that I moved to Arizona, did undergrad I'm sorry.
I took two years off betweenundergrad and grad school and
when I was in Arizona I workedfor a behavioral health agency
called ComCare and my caseloadas a case manager.
(08:49):
My caseload was individuals whowere charged with crimes who
also might suffer from mentalillnesses.
That got me interested in goingto grad school to get a
master's in criminology,criminal justice, which I did at
the university of memphis,graduated from there in may of
1999 with the math, you call it.
Tony (09:10):
You called it criminology or criminal justice really
criminal justice is there adifference?
Rachael (09:14):
I took.
Yeah, there is a difference.
Uh, interesting.
Yeah, we did a lot of theory.
There were a lot of theoryclasses that I took that sounds
fun, theory sounds fun I alsoalso took several psychology
classes while I was doing mygraduate studies as well, which
I really liked.
Side note, I actually my sisterfor one of my psychology
(09:34):
experience in grad schoolprojects I had to do.
She was struggling in algebraand so I did this whole like
psychology experiment with herto improve her grade and it did,
it worked.
Tony (09:47):
Well, don't keep that a secret.
Well, that's not for thispodcast.
Rachael (09:51):
right, I have all these other things too.
Yeah, I mean, how long is thispodcast?
Tony (10:00):
Okay, so that's your education background.
You come back to MemphisUniversity of Memphis
criminology.
Rachael (10:09):
Go Tigers.
Tony (10:11):
Criminal justice MBA.
It's a master's in criminaljustice.
Rachael (10:16):
Yes, I did that and I had the intention of working for
a federal agency.
Specifically, I wanted to workfor the FBI.
I had a calling.
I really, really, really wantedto work on missing children,
kidnapping cases.
That happened a lot back in theday, like when we were growing
(10:36):
up.
Tony (10:36):
I wonder if it still does.
We just don't hear about it.
You don't hear about it thatmuch.
I mean you and I both, we hadthe whole milk carton thing
growing up.
Remember that.
Rachael (10:43):
And you and I both talked about it and we've both
almost been kidnapped.
Tony (10:46):
I know, isn't that weird?
Yeah, we'll tell that's anotherepisode.
Yeah.
Rachael (10:49):
But I mean anyway.
So that's something I reallyreally wanted to do and I took
the psychological exam.
Tony (10:56):
How'd that go?
Rachael (10:57):
They tell me I passed it.
I mean, who knows really, but Igot shelved because they said
they went on a hiring freeze.
That might have been a way ofletting me down, I don't really
know, but they said they were ona hiring freeze.
Tony (11:07):
I would think they don't have much qualms about saying no
.
Rachael (11:11):
You think that if they were just like get out of here,
they would have said nah, youare not a fit, yeah, yeah.
Well, they did not say that tome.
They said they were on a hiringfreeze.
Tony (11:19):
How much different would your life have been had you
gotten into the FBI?
Rachael (11:26):
So much different.
I'm sure I wouldn't have stayedhere.
Most likely initially I wouldhave had to Could have been
anywhere in the country, trained, gone to Quantico first right
and then trained.
And who knows?
And then who knows what theywould have put me into doing?
Tony (11:38):
Quantico is also where they train Marine Corps officers
into doing.
Rachael (11:43):
Quantico is also where they train Marine Corps officers
.
Did you know that?
I did know that.
Yeah, gabe actually went to agraduation of his Marine.
That's where he went last year.
Was it last year I?
Think that was yeah, so Ididn't know what I was going to
do.
This is I'm about to graduate.
It's April, I think, of 1999.
And I was waiting tables at arestaurant in Memphis, thought I
(12:06):
guess I'll just do that for alittle while while I figure this
out.
You know, and Ron Lacks ofInquisitor Inc was asked by one
of my professors, dr Vandiver,to come in and talk about what
he does at his privateinvestigation firm Inquisitor.
And he did.
He came in, spoke about all thethings he does surveillance,
(12:27):
insurance, investigationsotherwise known as subrogation
and the criminal defense teamthat he has.
At that time it was really justa few of them.
It was Ron doing the factinvestigation.
Tony (12:40):
Kind of visionary huh.
Rachael (12:41):
Yeah, no, I mean he really, I got a hand ron.
Tony (12:45):
It didn't end well, which we may or may not talk about
later, but I mean, you know, Ican't take that away from him.
Rachael (12:49):
I worked there for many years and then left, but ron
was a good investigator.
He was and he was a goodbusiness man, obviously, um, so
he made this firm and he hadthis team.
He really his pet project, Ithink really was working on
capital cases.
So at that time in tennesseethere was the capital resource
(13:11):
project which provided resourcesand funding to investigators to
help attorneys on their capitalcases.
And back then we're talking theearly, not in 90s there was a
lot of death penalty cases.
I mean people were noticing fordeath.
Well, attorneys were, attorneygenerals were noticing for death
on all kinds of cases.
I remember for a period of timeyou had to get a lot of capital
(13:34):
cases on, you know, felonymurders.
Tony (13:37):
Were there more crimes being committed that warranted
the death penalty, or were theyjust more bloodthirsty?
Rachael (13:45):
Oh no, I mean, I would not say that there were more
worthy cases back then thanthere are now.
No way, I just think that Ithink the pendulum swings.
Tony (13:55):
They were more willing to.
Rachael (13:56):
Yeah, I think the pendulum swings to some extent
with society's thoughts on thedeath penalty, like even you can
see it.
It has in my personal lifegreatly yeah, right, I mean look
at what happened, what'shappened in memphis.
This is definitely getting offtopic, but after the time.
So covet happened, right and Iremember you know there was a
(14:19):
lot of crime.
Remember there's a lot going onin this house there was a lot
of crime in this house yeah no,there wasn't.
so what are you talking about?
But in memphis there was a lotof things happening crime wise
in memphis at that time and, um,you know a lot of things
happening and then tyree nicholshappened, can I?
Tony (14:41):
summarize Tyree Nichols.
Rachael (14:43):
Well, as best you can.
I mean, I did not work onTyree's case.
Tony (14:47):
I got you.
I suddenly am drawing a blank.
I know that he, oh he walkedinto a store allegedly Tyree.
Yeah, am I wrong?
Rachael (14:58):
Oh no, I'm so wrong.
Holy cow, no Tyree.
So wrong.
Tony (15:01):
Holy cow, no.
Tyree Nichols was well.
He was brutally murdered bypolice officers after a traffic
stop.
Gone bad.
Rachael (15:12):
Yes, in Memphis Most of it on video, maybe all of it,
but I've only watched thesegments they put out in the
news when they released thevideo, when DA Morrow did that.
But I actually skipped somebecause during covid there was
george floyd first, right,george floyd happened and then
everyone like police defundingall this kind of stuff.
(15:34):
So there, that happened what aweird time that was weird, yeah.
And then tyree happened and Iactually, after Tyree Nichols'
case happened, I actually sat inor volunteered for some sort of
informational session that theDepartment of Justice had with.
They wanted to get input fromthe defense community about
(15:57):
police officers and how can webetter train police officers to
handle or de-escalate situationsand they went to people like
you yeah, they asked for ourinput and public defenders and
stuff yeah, and so Iparticipated in one of the
sessions and I said and gettingback to you know body cam stuff.
I said the best way and I stillbelieve this to train an officer
(16:19):
better on how they'reportraying themselves in the
communities, to have them watchtheir own body cam.
I mean, I've watched enoughbody cam of officers.
I can tell you which officershandle situations better by
watching their body cam,obviously.
So if I can do that, theyshould.
What have you like?
Can you imagine if you were towear a video around all day long
(16:40):
and then go back and see howyou interacted with people?
Tony (16:42):
Yeah, I mean, you learn from that, you would think right
If I'd had a body cam on as aserver or bartender, you know.
Rachael (16:49):
Oh God, we could make money on that, Tony.
It would have been horrible.
Tony (16:53):
right, you're hilarious.
I can't imagine like that kindof high stress situation that
they are often cops are often in, and then uh, yeah, and then
you, oh, here's a recording ofwhat might have been the worst
day of your life and I'vepitched this idea many times.
Rachael (17:09):
Maybe they are watching their own body cam, I have no
idea, but I felt like that wasthe best way to get them to at
least open their eyes a littlebit to how they are being
perceived.
You know so.
So that happened, and so thenAmy Weirich was our DA, and
during Amy's tenure you couldeven have, you could see how the
(17:30):
notices for death were droppingoff over time.
But during the George Floyd,tyree Nichols thing, and then DA
Mulroy was elected and he isknown as a progressive DA and
very anti-death penalty and henoticed for death on two of the
first cases that you know,happened after he was elected
(17:52):
and then very rarely since.
But neither one of thoseindividuals that got noticed for
death after his election are ondeath row.
They both have since settledtheir cases Interesting.
Yeah, we should have a longerepisode on death row.
Tony (18:02):
They both have since settled their cases Interesting.
We should have a longer episodeabout death penalties.
I was about to give my opinionon it.
Rachael (18:09):
Yeah, we're getting off topic.
Tony (18:11):
I'll earn the right to give that opinion later.
We're talking about how youbecame a criminal defense
investigator.
Ron Lacks came and got you.
Rachael (18:18):
He did.
He gave me the job, so hetalked about what he did.
He had an opening on his teamAt that time.
It was just Ron Denise who wasan attorney, Was it?
Tony (18:26):
because of your affiliation with Ron that you
were exposed to maybe the mosthigh-profile case you've ever
worked on, right?
Is that fair?
Rachael (18:35):
Oh for sure, yeah, that's because of Ron.
Tony (18:37):
What case was?
Rachael (18:38):
that Well.
West Memphis 3, damien's case.
I worked on Damien Echols' caseas his investigator from
November of 2005 until wellrecently.
I still you know do what'sasked of me when they need
something.
If I can help out, I definitelydo Try to.
Tony (18:56):
Yeah, because most of the work they would need is in this
area.
Right yeah sometimes.
And who else would they get todo that?
Rachael (19:02):
Yeah, I mean mean they reach out to me.
Of course they've used otherpeople as well.
I think there have been otherinvestigators and jason has his
own investigators.
I'm not sure if dan stidham hasor jesse has used anyone.
I know it well in the in recentyears.
I should say um, I know onjason's case there was a man
named john Harden who workedvery hard.
(19:24):
He was a nice guy.
I like John.
Yeah.
So yeah, there's been a lot ofpeople, there's been a lot of
collaboration.
There's some things I do know,some things I don't, and I've
had just a lot of experiences.
And growing that happened, Imean think about it.
I came on that case in 2005.
Growing that happened, I meanthink about it I came on that
(19:44):
case in 2005 what year, is itright now?
20, 25, yeah, that's 20 years ofbeing exposed to a lot of highs
and lows.
On that one, well, on that one,yes, for sure, and on, and it
ended on a high note, obviously,when they were released, um,
but yeah, along the way, andeven during that time period
when you know the Damian, jasonand Jessen were released, I had
(20:07):
all these other things going onas well.
Just another high profile caseI worked Jesse Dodson.
Um, he had actually gone todeath row, um, sentenced to
death, to die six times over.
So that was not fun and um.
Tony (20:21):
So, yeah, a lot of highs and lows, for sure wow, yeah,
some of it's hard to talk about,but, um, I think it's important
that you do.
You've said, uh, 26 years, 20years on the west memphis three,
you've never.
You've done some interviews andstuff for other people's
projects, but you've never doneyour own.
Rachael (20:42):
I've never done my own project, never written my own
book, never written an article.
Tony (20:47):
Why now I?
Rachael (20:48):
have lots of thoughts about it.
Tony (20:49):
Why didn't you?
Why now?
Why wait until now?
Rachael (20:54):
Well, I think it's probably a lot of reasons that
came into it.
I don't think I had thebandwidth to even contemplate
doing telling anything about myexperiences with any case until
now.
I mean, I'm 52.
Our kids are grown and I stillthink this.
(21:17):
But these clients' storiesDamien's story, jesse's story
they are their stories.
That is their story to tell.
I think I'm finally starting tolearn that I did play a part,
obviously, in what's happened.
Tony (21:33):
I think a big part Bad for .
Rachael (21:35):
Jesse, honestly Good for Damien and that part of my
part of the story I can tell andI can own and there is merit in
it for other people to hear.
Tony (21:49):
Yeah, I get what you're saying about it being you know.
So let's say Damien, right, ifhe's going to talk about what
it's like to be a prisoner andto be locked in the same four
foot by four foot room for 18years.
You know that's.
You know you shut up and listen, right when he talks about that
.
But you know handling all theinformation, you know collating
(22:17):
that and pulling the signal outof the noise.
Right, you have a lot ofauthority to speak on stuff like
that.
Rachael (22:27):
Yes, my experiences are my own and for the longest time
I didn't own them and I knowyou hate that.
You hate when I say experiences.
Tony (22:36):
I don't know, why?
Rachael (22:36):
Why do you hate that?
Tony (22:37):
My experiences are my own.
No, that's fine.
Rachael (22:40):
I don't hate it, okay, but those are the stories I can
tell because that's myperspective, right?
It's sort of like it's notuncommon for you and I to talk
about something that happened tous, you know, years ago and
sometimes I don't even rememberit Right and you and to you it
(23:00):
was a very important moment and,for whatever reason, that was
your perception or somethingthat was meaningful to you, in
whatever experience that was foryou that I might not even
remember.
Yeah, that happens a lotactually I don't know why that
is right, so I think I'mstarting to own that part of it.
Tony (23:17):
I don't think you love me very much.
Rachael (23:21):
No, I just think that some things stick better than
others, and even for me on casesit's time to talk about it yeah
, I think it's time I findmyself telling stories to people
that's a good sign.
I find myself wanting to with myfriend, glory Shuttles, who
(23:42):
also worked on the West Memphis3 case, and at some point I plan
to ask her to be on the show ifwe make more than one episode
right, because she has lots ofstories, always has, and so
Glory worked on Damien's casewhen it happened, right.
I mean, she and Ron workedtogether on Damien's case and
she had all.
She has all these stories aboutthat time period.
(24:04):
She has all kinds of storiesabout all kinds of things that
she did and places she went,people she talked to that are
just beyond the whodunit.
It's not always about thewhodunit, it's about the
interaction.
Tony (24:21):
What's about the drama?
Well, yeah, things that happento you in the places that you
are Whodunit is not all of thedrama, right?
Rachael (24:27):
no, no, so um glory, and for years.
You know, I met glory when shewas in her 40s.
She's retired.
A few years ago she actuallyworked with me at the public
defender's office for a periodof time before she retired.
She can't help but tell stories.
(24:48):
And that's how kind of I alwaysknew her to be, and I find
myself doing that, so I don'tknow if it's something that
comes with age or just over timeyou are starting to see the
best way to teach other peoplearound you attorneys, other
investigators, clients thatyou're talking to stories about
other things you've done thatare somehow relevant to that
(25:11):
situation as well.
And so I got all these stories.
Tony, you want to hear some?
Tony (25:15):
of them.
Yeah, I'd like to hear them.
Okay, so let's say, we keepdoing the podcast and we do one
episode, and then we do 10, andthen we do 100, right, and it's
a huge success.
Rachael (25:30):
Do I have 100 stories?
I don't know.
Yeah, probably I'll carry theshow Okay, thanks.
I didn't need that.
Tony (25:37):
What does that mean to you ?
What is success?
Rachael (25:41):
I think the success would be having people see that
what I do for a living as acriminal defense, how I've spent
most of my half of my life nowis a profession.
It's not just a job.
This is something that you knowcomes with experience too.
(26:06):
You know how to talk to people.
I mean, not everybody can justshow up to someone's house,
knock on the door and ask themto talk about what might be the
worst moment of their lives.
That is not something that alot of people can do and you get
better at it as you do it more,and some people can never do it
.
This is a profession.
(26:27):
Profession.
It is an important part of thecriminal justice system.
It if you, if you as a defenseattorney, you know you have an
investigator and they're doingtheir job and they're doing it
well, you will be prepared.
And if you're reading thematerial and you, you know
listening to them, they've metwith the witnesses, they know
(26:48):
the case, they should, and it isimportant.
So, long term, if I were to sayhow I want to, where I would
want to go with this is to talkto other investigators, or even
attorneys or clients, if they'reallowed their mothers, their
(27:09):
family members, if they havequestions about their cases and
they want some feedback.
Tony (27:14):
I want to lend an ear and Offer advice, yeah, consulting
essentially Sure, yeah, freeconsulting.
Rachael (27:23):
Yeah, I mean this is just a show that we're doing
consulting.
Yeah, I mean, this is just ashow that we're doing and it's
something that I feel like I canhelp with.
Tony (27:34):
I'd like to yeah, I think you're uh really good at there's
always hope, right yes there'salways something you can do.
There's the state has a burdento prove stuff and you're going
to make them do it well, thereshould be a reminder about that
right I think I've always beenthis way.
Rachael (27:51):
I think about when I was in college and I was in um
professor pullman'sconstitutional law class and he
was very anti-death penalty.
I've always been anti-deathpenalty and I was raised
catholic, I think you know.
I don't know if that hasanything to do with it, but I've
never actually thought that thedeath penalty was a way to
(28:11):
serve justice in any form.
So we were in class and hethrew out a statistic.
I think he said something likeat that time maybe there was
some study that showed maybe twopercent of people who were
executed on death row were laterfound out to be innocent.
And he threw that out there,made that statement and said
(28:32):
what do you guys think aboutthat?
And I think it.
For me, it took like a fewmoments to even process what he
was saying.
Are you kidding me?
2% that is ridiculous.
That's crazy.
One person for me is too manyright.
Yeah.
And I remember vividly therewas someone in the class, a girl
, I don't know who it was, buthad said something like well,
(28:55):
that doesn't seem like a lot,that's fine Holy cow.
I almost jumped out of my chair.
Tony (29:00):
Acceptable losses.
Rachael (29:02):
I couldn't believe it, right?
I mean, I didn't jump out of my, of course I did not attack
this poor girl, but I'm prettysure I gave her my opinion,
though immediately.
Yeah, you're good at that Iknow that about me has not
changed.
I don't even know if I'vecalmed down any, since you know
college days maybe.
So, yeah, I knew.
(29:24):
So this was definitelysomething I should be doing with
my life.
You know.
So, yeah, I knew.
So this was definitelysomething I should be doing with
my life.
I think it's always.
The system only works well theway it's supposed to be if
everyone is doing their job, andthat's from police officers to
judges, attorneys, prosecutors,clerks, jail custodians, judges,
(29:45):
clerks, jail custodians.
You know everyone should.
If everyone was doing their jobthe way it was supposed to be,
then we would not have innocentpeople go to jail or people
overcharged, and we you and Iboth know that doesn't happen.
But as long as I play a littlebit of part in that to make sure
I'm doing my job, then there'sa check on some part of the
system Right, and I remain thatcheck in some way.
Tony (30:08):
Yeah, I think that's a good reason.
Yeah, all right.
So that's who you are, that'swhat you do, we are going to do
another episode, do you think?
Or no.
Rachael (30:20):
Yeah.
Tony (30:20):
What do you want to talk about in the next one?
Rachael (30:22):
I think in the next episode.
Well, I think I should probablyjust talk a little bit about my
introduction.
I think people are interestedin knowing more about what I did
on Damien's case and, to theextent that I can talk about my
(30:43):
experiences, I will and I had alot of interesting times that I
can talk about and how I wasintroduced to the case and then
leading up to, obviously, hisrelease, which was an amazing
day, so I can talk about thatand see if people are interested
in hearing about that and seewhere that goes.
Tony (30:59):
Okay, We'll look forward to that.
Thank you for the.
I got nothing.
We got to come up with someoutro thing.
Rachael (31:07):
Yeah.
Tony (31:09):
All right, love, you mean it.
Rachael (31:10):
Love you mean come up with some outro thing.
Yeah, all right, love you meanit, love you mean it Bye guys,
bye.
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