Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
TGI, the global island
(00:03):
Yo what is philosophy? Is philosophy even necessary?
How do you define your terms? What tools can we use to make sense out of the world?
Me and Matt have a dialectic about Christianity and Buddhism
We talk about what our biggest question would be if we ever met Jordan Peterson
We talk about lost knowledge and the importance of going back to the old philosophers
(00:24):
We get into Chad Juby T a little bit too so I think you might enjoy this episode
Subscribe
(00:59):
I disagree, it doesn't owe anybody anything
It's not that it has to burn forests but it doesn't owe anybody anything
So what do you think philosophy is?
I think it does, I think the philosophers like you were bringing up Plato
Where we need this enlightened king
I think philosophy owes people to be the most transparent in its thinking
(01:22):
What do you mean transparent in its thinking?
Be the most aware of how it goes from point A to point B
Where in other methodologies like religion we can just presuppose things
Like God exists therefore God is going to heal your broken leg
And there's no mechanism by which we can go further
(01:45):
Yes there is theology and you could spend a lot of time studying that
But there's other presuppositions that the theologians aren't going to take time to really philosophize about
But the philosophers are the ones who really try to question everything
Take on every perspective and try to be as transparent in their thinking as possible
Yeah but you don't necessarily have to describe it in a way that is as transparent as possible
(02:10):
I mean philosophy to me can be very artistic and I hope that it is
This is really where I agree with Paul Firebend about philosophy
That it would be wrong for philosophy to start following in the path of most other academic traditions
Especially science which is what Firebend really mentioned about
(02:35):
But it is this pluralism within it, that art, that music, that fiction, books, writing, theaters, plays, speeches
Whatever it is, how you want to describe it can be a form of philosophy
And philosophy is defined as like a making sense apparatus
(02:56):
Sure
These are methodological pluralism, there's many different methods by which we can make sense out of the world
Absolutely but it doesn't necessarily owe an answer to something
Aldous Huxley's
But isn't that the whole point? The whole point is to try to produce answers
Well, answers to what?
So if we look at this at different levels, so I understand this in the East, in the West
(03:22):
There is an issue, there is a way, let's say democracy
Democracy has pros, democracy has cons, we need to discuss the pros, cons
We need to understand the systems behind it, we need to understand the governance
And we're doing it because we're trying to make the system better
Yeah exactly, that's great for Western philosophy
But for Eastern philosophy it doesn't really make sense because you're not actually trying to answer anything in certain things
(03:45):
Especially when you look at like the Kyoto school
So what are you trying to do in Eastern thought? What is the ultimate?
Relation
Maybe understanding?
Well, sure, it's a bid
But isn't that still an axiomatic goal?
Well no, because it could also just be your work
(04:09):
There are people, individuals, that this comes more naturally to them
And they're able to express it in different ways
And then this is where it becomes your dharma and your work
To essentially philosophize on certain aspects
You look like I want to make you cry
(04:31):
So what the hell is the goal of the East?
There's no goal
I mean I can't speak for the East entirely
You can genuinely say that
So you can with a straight face say that the East has no orientation to it
Sure, Buddhism has no goal
It has no goal because any goal that we could essentially philosophize
(04:57):
That we could discuss, anything that we could really write down
It could only point us towards the trueness of this
You can never really fully say it
But isn't that a goal in and of itself?
To point towards something?
Yeah, like the point of the East is to point to the reality that the philosophizing, the dialogue, the semantics
(05:22):
This is not as objectively or this is not the ultimate
It's good, but it's not the ultimate
Yeah, sure, you can
But that is a narrative, that is still a goal
But what would be the goal to say that this is not the ultimate
Rather than to say Christianity is going to help fix the West's problems?
(05:43):
I understand what you're saying
The Western Jodhya Christian goals are much more practical things in the world
But the East is still, there is an orientation that has a hierarchy of value
And on the top of that hierarchy is oneness
Well, it's not even that it's at the top of the hierarchy
(06:05):
Because the hierarchy doesn't really exist
Yeah, there is no hierarchy
There is absolutely no hierarchy
So, hierarchies completely dissolve
So, the East ultimately just wants to say all of this, all this thinking is not the thing that's the most real
(06:26):
The thing that is the most real is actually the awareness of the thinking
Exactly, and you know, I will, here, you know what?
I'm going to criticize the East for you, just to make you happy
For understanding, sure, that's absolutely great
But I guess this is where people like Peterson absolutely love to scream about Christianity
In that it is very beneficial in your everyday life with easier amounts of work than say Mahayana Buddhism
(06:55):
Because it tells you to pick up your cross, it tells you to make sacrifices, to love your family, to love your neighbors yourself
And these are very practical things that tomorrow morning I can wake up and I can do
But if a Buddhist monk said, be enlightened
They would never tell you to be enlightened
Some of them would tell you to go away
If you say enlighten me, they'll say get away from me
They'll say go shine some shoes
(07:17):
Exactly, go shine some shoes for 20 years
But I think that that's a little bit of a longer route for someone to love their neighbor as their self
Where they can just read the Bible and they could be like, wow, I've actually been really selfish with my wealth
And I haven't really given my wealth to the poor as much as I should be
And that's a very practical thing that I can get from a, you know, biblical text that actually improves my life and improves society
(07:44):
Versus the East, you know
Yes, but it, the East, sure, you might say, you might call it the long way around
But for some people it's the short way around
There is no actual time frame, this can happen instantly, this can happen over 30 years
So then how do we create a synthesis between the Jordan Peterson types that are very, you know, have a stronghold on the biblical text?
(08:09):
Get over this idea that Buddhism, that mysticism, that this is absurd
Get over your personal righteousness
Get over your religion's righteousness
And understand that you can both give it up and do it all at the same time
(08:32):
So long as you hold on to something
But what if the Christians say that you're the ones who are being self-righteous
And the Christian is the one who's actually taking on the humility to submit and surrender to a higher form of God
I'm sorry you feel that way
Ben Shapiro came in this room with the Halifax, I don't care about your feelings
(08:53):
No, that's not it, it's that they feel that way
Sure
Do you understand? But like a Buddhist wouldn't combat a Christian the way that you see
But can't I just turn that back to you and be like, sorry that you hate Jordan Peterson for loving the biblical stories
I don't hate him for loving the biblical stories, there's no issue with that, you know what I mean?
(09:15):
But I understand what you're saying
That's still an emotional critique, but philosophically I do see your point of you've got to get over this dogmatism
That becoming enlightened and realizing that you could be oneness with God, becoming the God-like self
All those things that we talked about in previous episodes
Yeah, absolutely
(09:36):
That that is a selfish or a self-righteous path that is actually sinning
You have to get over that dogma
And if I was going to say something to Jordan Peterson, like if I was going to talk to him in a room or something, like when he had that discussion with Richard Dawkins
And I'm blanking on his name
Alex O'Connor
Alex O'Connor that moderated when he was like, I want to have this discussion because you understand this literature
(10:00):
It would be so much more beneficial, like just Alan Watts spoke about this, what, 50 years ago
The fact that we are too caught up in this Christian way of being and Christianity being here
I don't think it's necessarily the answer
I understand this loss, but to say that, oh, the universities are crazy, we need more Christianity
(10:24):
Even though Christianity has been going on forever
I think there needs to be more synthesis as Alan Watts did where you need to understand Christianity and you need to understand the West
Read Hegel, read D.T. Suzuki, read the Kyoto school, Nishitani, read all of these people, read Aleister Crowley
(10:45):
You will see between these so much that can be synthesized
Read Immanuel Kant
There's nothing wrong with reading both and synthesizing them together
Now I understand not everyone can do this everywhere, always, all the time
But there are people who can, they need to communicate these ideas better
People that are in these positions, you know, I'm sick
(11:08):
If Jordan Peterson brings up Cain and Abel one more time, I'm going to gouge my ears out
Wait, what did Richard say? You quoted Cain and Abel 37 times
Dude, the fact that Dawkins, I could just see Dawkins sitting there reading the book with like a tally mark, Cain number 147, Abel number 152
(11:35):
Like I can just see him doing that, which is hysterical
But I feel like the discussion in philosophy, especially around religion, is completely caught up
Where these people almost have become theologians that believe these religions
It's almost more how they talk rather than understanding it from a nihilistic point of view
(11:58):
Through the Kyoto school where it essentially has no essence
If nothing has essence, let's talk about the mechanisms of everything
Let's talk about the content of everything
See how they stand up and see where their synthesis lies and how they speak to every culture
Would you agree, I'd love to know your thoughts on this
If we were in the room with Jordan Peterson right now
Wouldn't you agree that the greatest question we could ask Jordan Peterson, possibly, could be
(12:24):
Jordan, I want you to steel man an argument for the East
Tell me everything that you think the East has provided us that is useful and beneficial
And I think that would reveal his knowledge of the East, right, first off
Would reveal whether he actually thinks that there is anything beneficial
And that if he goes on and actually can tell us a lot of really good positive things from the East
(12:49):
Then we can follow up and be like, then why aren't you incorporating this in your
splurging of Christian narratives that you think are really good orientating principles for young men
To actually pick up their cross and actually go on in the world
Why aren't you also helping all those young men in India, those young men in Asia
(13:11):
Why aren't you helping those young men who these narratives are more familiar to them and being non-sectarian
This is the point that Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt and Jordan Peterson
When they were in conversation on one of Jordan's podcasts, Pinker said
We need to have narratives that are non-sectarian
I agree
And he, that was his biggest critique with Jordan, you know, being so obsessed with these only Christian narratives
(13:35):
Well, I think we need non-sectarian, you need pluralism, plus you also need to realize Canada and the United States
These are very multicultural societies, this is not the 1950s where Christianity is the dominant
And then you also have the Jews as well, like there is so many more religions than there are now
There are so many more different languages, cultures, experiences, you know what I mean
(13:57):
So he is only going to a very select group of people
And while I agree with you that you have a brilliant and wonderful and well thought out question to ask Peterson
There is that absolute, I don't know what you would call me, what is it, a sadist or masochist?
Which one is where you want to like, where I...
Sadism is where you get the enjoyment of watching other people suffer
(14:19):
Okay, sadism, I would just ask him, Jordan, do you believe in God?
No, come on, this guy
What do you mean by belief?
Yeah, exactly, I just want to hear that, I think it would be, he would be going off and I would be laughing
Yeah, yeah
You're spot on though with your question because it would help gain a better understanding of where he's at
And I think Sam, in like those debates forever ago, really...
(14:42):
Well, that's because they just disagreed on their definition of truth
It took them two full like three hour conversations to just understand that one is viewing truth through a metaphorical truth
And one is viewing truth through an objective materialistic perspective
But yeah, okay, so, but, okay, this is the reason why philosophy is so important to me
And why it actually illuminates, right?
(15:03):
Philosophy, and to me, philosophy is like the meta conversation, right?
Like we have like meta-ethics, we have meta-cognition, thinking about thinking, thinking about ethics
To me, philosophy is the tools that we use by which we can say, hey Jordan, hey Sam, quit having a three hour conversation
Let's define our terms here
What do we mean by truth? What's our epistemology, right?
(15:25):
Like what we did in our first and second episode with our worldviews
I think that's so important because now when you ask me questions, now when you confront me with something that I'm unfamiliar with
You understand my thought processes, you understand my philosophies and my core beliefs about the world
So you reinterpret your questions through that lens
I always try to
Or at least try to, right?
(15:46):
The same way that I tried to do that with my question towards Jordan Peterson, right?
I was like, okay, Jordan Peterson respects Steele Manning, Jordan Peterson respects that there are narratives that actually help people
But for some odd reason, he's just not talking about the East at all
And so how do we bridge that in a way that
(16:07):
Like this was something that Alex O'Connell talked about where when he was in conversation with Ben Shapiro
He's like, I noticed when I had a question that came from an orientation of confrontation
Ben Shapiro would respond with confrontation
But if I came to the question with a genuine desire to actually learn his belief about it
(16:28):
Or try to seek truth alongside him
Ben Shapiro would respond in a very more objective, thoughtful response
And so Alex O'Connor was saying, you know, I think the same thing is with Peterson as well
Like the way that we approach these characters, we're either going to get the woke more or less
Or we're going to get a genuine desire to actually try to bridge these gaps
(16:50):
So does he believe in God?
No, I know what you're
Have you seen Jonathan Vaveky's conversation with Lex Freeman?
No, I have not
Probably the most important podcast I've watched to date
He talks about there's different forms of knowledge
There's propositional knowledge, there's procedural knowledge, and he gives two others
But I think this distinction is really important
(17:11):
In the West, all we care about is propositional, right?
Like all of our cognitive thinking, right?
Like PowerPoint presentations
But when we teach kids how to ride a bike
We're not putting their face in front of a PowerPoint presentation on how to ride a bike for three hours
We're getting them out there and they're in the world and body moving, right?
And this is where the West has lost procedural knowledge
(17:32):
On my way to my new job on my first case
I was feeling really anxious
And my girlfriend was like, you were over-prepared
You were so knowledgeable on what you have to do
You should not feel nervous at all
And she's like, you know what you got to do?
You just got to think until you make it
And I kind of convinced myself of that
I was like, yeah, I actually have all of the cognitive resources
(17:53):
And the propositional knowledge to do great in this new job
But what I realized is the reason why I was anxious
Is because I wasn't fully prepared
Because I wasn't procedurally prepared
Because this was the first time that I actually procedurally was in the world
Embodying all those propositions that I memorized, right?
And so that's why I was anxious
Because I actually was unprepared
(18:15):
Well, I mean, working in this world
Like working in anything like social work, clinical therapy
Any of that world where you're working with other people
Their emotions, their feelings, you know, goal setting
Whatever it is you're working on, like with those clients
Experience is not
I mean, professionalism, background knowledge
And almost the most important part is experience
(18:39):
But I do think personality definitely plays a key
When it comes with working in the field
Be higher in trade openness?
I guess that's one way of putting it, you know
Like, I'm
You have to be incredibly empathetic
Empathetic and compassionate
Yeah, because you know that
You have to celebrate the small wins
(19:01):
Because you know that some people are just so off the beaten path
That just like one positive step towards the right direction
Well, it depends
Because also at some points you're going to work at something
With somebody from a completely different perspective
Than you're familiar with
Well, yeah, sometimes it's going to be totally out of the box
Like a game of Uno or a game of Jenga
(19:22):
Out of the box
Those are fun, I'm familiar with that
It builds relationships
And over time
A way of like this is a different way in
And it depends on who you're working
I mean, there's again
There's no way to truly understand
The amount of experiences when working with people
(19:45):
You know, especially in like this sort of world
Because everybody's going to have a different experience
And you know what?
Sure, I'm agreeing with you
I think philosophy should help a way on how like people
Like in our positions can work with learned experience
Because when people focus too much on like CBT for example
(20:07):
It's just that technically doesn't actually work for everyone
Do you know what I mean?
And I think this is where the beneficial of understanding
Of more mysticism, religions
You know, will be beneficial to people
There are other methodologies by which can produce therapeutic outcomes
That are not just our philosophical proposition
(20:28):
Absolutely, and a lot of that is
That sounded like chat GPT
Yeah, right
Don't we all just sound like chat GPT at the end of the day?
I'd love to just record like five hours of myself talking
Like talk like me
You know, see
I want to see how insane I really am
No, no, okay, so here's the thing
So chat GPT has a memory, right?
It's building up your conversations
You should ask it to have a conversation with you
(20:50):
But try to take on your perspective
Can you like have you ever just as in been like
Build me a philosophy of myself
You can, yeah, yeah
My girlfriend actually sent me a prompt where you ask it
Based off of all of our interactions
Give me a summary of what you think
Like I am truly like
And it was really good
(21:11):
Based on all our interactions
Sure, we've discussed
Damn, you got like a British accent?
Yeah, I always do the British accent
Are you ready?
So the prompt is based off of all of our interactions
Can you give me a detailed summary of what you think I'm like
And what you think my core beliefs are
Based on all of our interactions
Can you give me a detailed summary of what you think I'm like
(21:35):
And what you think my core beliefs are
Oh, sure
From our interactions
I gather you're deeply intellectual
With a strong interest in social issues
And the dynamics of human behavior
You're drawn to exploring complex philosophical concepts
Particularly those related to power and societal structures
You're also practical and compassionate
(21:57):
Focusing on applying theoretical knowledge to real world problems
Especially in the realm of social work
Your diverse culinary tastes and interest in health conscious meal planning
Suggest you value variety and well-being
Overall, you appear thoughtful, curious, and committed to making a positive impact in your field
(22:19):
And the lives of others
Does that sound about right?
Interesting
I see where it pulls from
Obviously it's not an all
It's only had a few months to actually get to know you
Yeah, and I use it to learn
I gotta be honest, I have this one professor that is a potato
Wait, wait, wait, slow down
(22:41):
Please describe what that means
You never heard that term?
Like, oh, I'm a total potato
Basically means useless
They're a rock
They're a potato, you know what I mean?
They might as well just lay, you might as well put a potato in front of the class that sits there
And just like
A potato flew around my room before you came
(23:04):
Okay, okay
So I have this one professor that's like a total potato
And everything that they teach
I literally put into chat GBT and then I start discussing it
And then I take notes on that
And I ask it for sources to kind of double check to make sure that what it is giving me is actually correct
But it has been an amazing educational source in the classroom
(23:27):
For when you have a potato of a teacher
My girlfriend's professor in nursing school is honestly brutally, disgustingly horrible
And she pays for the full version of chat GBT
And that's been saving her ass
Oh yeah, no, listen
Dude, I mean, the first year of social work school
But isn't it crazy that the mechanism by which we are learning the most is absolutely free?
(23:50):
And you're paying how much money to go to social work school?
I don't want to talk about it
You know what I mean?
I mean, like, much of the benefit I get actually is from the professor's experience
And their conversations on things that they're interested in, they're working in
You know what I mean?
So like, there is a benefit with that
You know, so like, in some classes I pay attention, in other classes the professors are potatoes
(24:13):
And you're trying to follow your curiosity
Yeah, exactly
This is a huge tangent, we can kind of end it here
Is there any sound argument in your worldview that what Sam Altman and what Ilya and the leaders of OpenAI have created
Might be one of the greatest gifts to mankind?
To answer it like a Zen monk, we shall see
(24:34):
And we shall see
Seriously, I don't know
Dad, do you know that that's like the koan?
We shall see how it ends up
But I think right now it's just an amazing gift to humanity
I think it's worth to give the Nobel Peace Prize to
TGI, the global island
(00:03):
Yo what is philosophy? Is philosophy even necessary?
How do you define your terms? What tools can we use to make sense out of the world?
Me and Matt have a dialectic about Christianity and Buddhism
We talk about what our biggest question would be if we ever met Jordan Peterson
We talk about lost knowledge and the importance of going back to the old philosophers
(00:24):
We get into Chad Juby T a little bit too so I think you might enjoy this episode
Subscribe
(00:59):
I disagree, it doesn't owe anybody anything
It's not that it has to burn forests but it doesn't owe anybody anything
So what do you think philosophy is?
I think it does, I think the philosophers like you were bringing up Plato
Where we need this enlightened king
I think philosophy owes people to be the most transparent in its thinking
(01:22):
What do you mean transparent in its thinking?
Be the most aware of how it goes from point A to point B
Where in other methodologies like religion we can just presuppose things
Like God exists therefore God is going to heal your broken leg
And there's no mechanism by which we can go further
(01:45):
Yes there is theology and you could spend a lot of time studying that
But there's other presuppositions that the theologians aren't going to take time to really philosophize about
But the philosophers are the ones who really try to question everything
Take on every perspective and try to be as transparent in their thinking as possible
Yeah but you don't necessarily have to describe it in a way that is as transparent as possible
(02:10):
I mean philosophy to me can be very artistic and I hope that it is
This is really where I agree with Paul Firebend about philosophy
That it would be wrong for philosophy to start following in the path of most other academic traditions
Especially science which is what Firebend really mentioned about
(02:35):
But it is this pluralism within it, that art, that music, that fiction, books, writing, theaters, plays, speeches
Whatever it is, how you want to describe it can be a form of philosophy
And philosophy is defined as like a making sense apparatus
(02:56):
Sure
These are methodological pluralism, there's many different methods by which we can make sense out of the world
Absolutely but it doesn't necessarily owe an answer to something
Aldous Huxley's
But isn't that the whole point? The whole point is to try to produce answers
Well, answers to what?
So if we look at this at different levels, so I understand this in the East, in the West
(03:22):
There is an issue, there is a way, let's say democracy
Democracy has pros, democracy has cons, we need to discuss the pros, cons
We need to understand the systems behind it, we need to understand the governance
And we're doing it because we're trying to make the system better
Yeah exactly, that's great for Western philosophy
But for Eastern philosophy it doesn't really make sense because you're not actually trying to answer anything in certain things
(03:45):
Especially when you look at like the Kyoto school
So what are you trying to do in Eastern thought? What is the ultimate?
Relation
Maybe understanding?
Well, sure, it's a bid
But isn't that still an axiomatic goal?
Well no, because it could also just be your work
(04:09):
There are people, individuals, that this comes more naturally to them
And they're able to express it in different ways
And then this is where it becomes your dharma and your work
To essentially philosophize on certain aspects
You look like I want to make you cry
(04:31):
So what the hell is the goal of the East?
There's no goal
I mean I can't speak for the East entirely
You can genuinely say that
So you can with a straight face say that the East has no orientation to it
Sure, Buddhism has no goal
It has no goal because any goal that we could essentially philosophize
(04:57):
That we could discuss, anything that we could really write down
It could only point us towards the trueness of this
You can never really fully say it
But isn't that a goal in and of itself?
To point towards something?
Yeah, like the point of the East is to point to the reality that the philosophizing, the dialogue, the semantics
(05:22):
This is not as objectively or this is not the ultimate
It's good, but it's not the ultimate
Yeah, sure, you can
But that is a narrative, that is still a goal
But what would be the goal to say that this is not the ultimate
Rather than to say Christianity is going to help fix the West's problems?
(05:43):
I understand what you're saying
The Western Jodhya Christian goals are much more practical things in the world
But the East is still, there is an orientation that has a hierarchy of value
And on the top of that hierarchy is oneness
Well, it's not even that it's at the top of the hierarchy
(06:05):
Because the hierarchy doesn't really exist
Yeah, there is no hierarchy
There is absolutely no hierarchy
So, hierarchies completely dissolve
So, the East ultimately just wants to say all of this, all this thinking is not the thing that's the most real
(06:26):
The thing that is the most real is actually the awareness of the thinking
Exactly, and you know, I will, here, you know what?
I'm going to criticize the East for you, just to make you happy
For understanding, sure, that's absolutely great
But I guess this is where people like Peterson absolutely love to scream about Christianity
In that it is very beneficial in your everyday life with easier amounts of work than say Mahayana Buddhism
(06:55):
Because it tells you to pick up your cross, it tells you to make sacrifices, to love your family, to love your neighbors yourself
And these are very practical things that tomorrow morning I can wake up and I can do
But if a Buddhist monk said, be enlightened
They would never tell you to be enlightened
Some of them would tell you to go away
If you say enlighten me, they'll say get away from me
They'll say go shine some shoes
(07:17):
Exactly, go shine some shoes for 20 years
But I think that that's a little bit of a longer route for someone to love their neighbor as their self
Where they can just read the Bible and they could be like, wow, I've actually been really selfish with my wealth
And I haven't really given my wealth to the poor as much as I should be
And that's a very practical thing that I can get from a, you know, biblical text that actually improves my life and improves society
(07:44):
Versus the East, you know
Yes, but it, the East, sure, you might say, you might call it the long way around
But for some people it's the short way around
There is no actual time frame, this can happen instantly, this can happen over 30 years
So then how do we create a synthesis between the Jordan Peterson types that are very, you know, have a stronghold on the biblical text?
(08:09):
Get over this idea that Buddhism, that mysticism, that this is absurd
Get over your personal righteousness
Get over your religion's righteousness
And understand that you can both give it up and do it all at the same time
(08:32):
So long as you hold on to something
But what if the Christians say that you're the ones who are being self-righteous
And the Christian is the one who's actually taking on the humility to submit and surrender to a higher form of God
I'm sorry you feel that way
Ben Shapiro came in this room with the Halifax, I don't care about your feelings
(08:53):
No, that's not it, it's that they feel that way
Sure
Do you understand? But like a Buddhist wouldn't combat a Christian the way that you see
But can't I just turn that back to you and be like, sorry that you hate Jordan Peterson for loving the biblical stories
I don't hate him for loving the biblical stories, there's no issue with that, you know what I mean?
(09:15):
But I understand what you're saying
That's still an emotional critique, but philosophically I do see your point of you've got to get over this dogmatism
That becoming enlightened and realizing that you could be oneness with God, becoming the God-like self
All those things that we talked about in previous episodes
Yeah, absolutely
(09:36):
That that is a selfish or a self-righteous path that is actually sinning
You have to get over that dogma
And if I was going to say something to Jordan Peterson, like if I was going to talk to him in a room or something, like when he had that discussion with Richard Dawkins
And I'm blanking on his name
Alex O'Connor
Alex O'Connor that moderated when he was like, I want to have this discussion because you understand this literature
(10:00):
It would be so much more beneficial, like just Alan Watts spoke about this, what, 50 years ago
The fact that we are too caught up in this Christian way of being and Christianity being here
I don't think it's necessarily the answer
I understand this loss, but to say that, oh, the universities are crazy, we need more Christianity
(10:24):
Even though Christianity has been going on forever
I think there needs to be more synthesis as Alan Watts did where you need to understand Christianity and you need to understand the West
Read Hegel, read D.T. Suzuki, read the Kyoto school, Nishitani, read all of these people, read Aleister Crowley
(10:45):
You will see between these so much that can be synthesized
Read Immanuel Kant
There's nothing wrong with reading both and synthesizing them together
Now I understand not everyone can do this everywhere, always, all the time
But there are people who can, they need to communicate these ideas better
People that are in these positions, you know, I'm sick
(11:08):
If Jordan Peterson brings up Cain and Abel one more time, I'm going to gouge my ears out
Wait, what did Richard say? You quoted Cain and Abel 37 times
Dude, the fact that Dawkins, I could just see Dawkins sitting there reading the book with like a tally mark, Cain number 147, Abel number 152
(11:35):
Like I can just see him doing that, which is hysterical
But I feel like the discussion in philosophy, especially around religion, is completely caught up
Where these people almost have become theologians that believe these religions
It's almost more how they talk rather than understanding it from a nihilistic point of view
(11:58):
Through the Kyoto school where it essentially has no essence
If nothing has essence, let's talk about the mechanisms of everything
Let's talk about the content of everything
See how they stand up and see where their synthesis lies and how they speak to every culture
Would you agree, I'd love to know your thoughts on this
If we were in the room with Jordan Peterson right now
Wouldn't you agree that the greatest question we could ask Jordan Peterson, possibly, could be
(12:24):
Jordan, I want you to steel man an argument for the East
Tell me everything that you think the East has provided us that is useful and beneficial
And I think that would reveal his knowledge of the East, right, first off
Would reveal whether he actually thinks that there is anything beneficial
And that if he goes on and actually can tell us a lot of really good positive things from the East
(12:49):
Then we can follow up and be like, then why aren't you incorporating this in your
splurging of Christian narratives that you think are really good orientating principles for young men
To actually pick up their cross and actually go on in the world
Why aren't you also helping all those young men in India, those young men in Asia
(13:11):
Why aren't you helping those young men who these narratives are more familiar to them and being non-sectarian
This is the point that Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt and Jordan Peterson
When they were in conversation on one of Jordan's podcasts, Pinker said
We need to have narratives that are non-sectarian
I agree
And he, that was his biggest critique with Jordan, you know, being so obsessed with these only Christian narratives
(13:35):
Well, I think we need non-sectarian, you need pluralism, plus you also need to realize Canada and the United States
These are very multicultural societies, this is not the 1950s where Christianity is the dominant
And then you also have the Jews as well, like there is so many more religions than there are now
There are so many more different languages, cultures, experiences, you know what I mean
(13:57):
So he is only going to a very select group of people
And while I agree with you that you have a brilliant and wonderful and well thought out question to ask Peterson
There is that absolute, I don't know what you would call me, what is it, a sadist or masochist?
Which one is where you want to like, where I...
Sadism is where you get the enjoyment of watching other people suffer
(14:19):
Okay, sadism, I would just ask him, Jordan, do you believe in God?
No, come on, this guy
What do you mean by belief?
Yeah, exactly, I just want to hear that, I think it would be, he would be going off and I would be laughing
Yeah, yeah
You're spot on though with your question because it would help gain a better understanding of where he's at
And I think Sam, in like those debates forever ago, really...
(14:42):
Well, that's because they just disagreed on their definition of truth
It took them two full like three hour conversations to just understand that one is viewing truth through a metaphorical truth
And one is viewing truth through an objective materialistic perspective
But yeah, okay, so, but, okay, this is the reason why philosophy is so important to me
And why it actually illuminates, right?
(15:03):
Philosophy, and to me, philosophy is like the meta conversation, right?
Like we have like meta-ethics, we have meta-cognition, thinking about thinking, thinking about ethics
To me, philosophy is the tools that we use by which we can say, hey Jordan, hey Sam, quit having a three hour conversation
Let's define our terms here
What do we mean by truth? What's our epistemology, right?
(15:25):
Like what we did in our first and second episode with our worldviews
I think that's so important because now when you ask me questions, now when you confront me with something that I'm unfamiliar with
You understand my thought processes, you understand my philosophies and my core beliefs about the world
So you reinterpret your questions through that lens
I always try to
Or at least try to, right?
(15:46):
The same way that I tried to do that with my question towards Jordan Peterson, right?
I was like, okay, Jordan Peterson respects Steele Manning, Jordan Peterson respects that there are narratives that actually help people
But for some odd reason, he's just not talking about the East at all
And so how do we bridge that in a way that
(16:07):
Like this was something that Alex O'Connell talked about where when he was in conversation with Ben Shapiro
He's like, I noticed when I had a question that came from an orientation of confrontation
Ben Shapiro would respond with confrontation
But if I came to the question with a genuine desire to actually learn his belief about it
(16:28):
Or try to seek truth alongside him
Ben Shapiro would respond in a very more objective, thoughtful response
And so Alex O'Connor was saying, you know, I think the same thing is with Peterson as well
Like the way that we approach these characters, we're either going to get the woke more or less
Or we're going to get a genuine desire to actually try to bridge these gaps
(16:50):
So does he believe in God?
No, I know what you're
Have you seen Jonathan Vaveky's conversation with Lex Freeman?
No, I have not
Probably the most important podcast I've watched to date
He talks about there's different forms of knowledge
There's propositional knowledge, there's procedural knowledge, and he gives two others
But I think this distinction is really important
(17:11):
In the West, all we care about is propositional, right?
Like all of our cognitive thinking, right?
Like PowerPoint presentations
But when we teach kids how to ride a bike
We're not putting their face in front of a PowerPoint presentation on how to ride a bike for three hours
We're getting them out there and they're in the world and body moving, right?
And this is where the West has lost procedural knowledge
(17:32):
On my way to my new job on my first case
I was feeling really anxious
And my girlfriend was like, you were over-prepared
You were so knowledgeable on what you have to do
You should not feel nervous at all
And she's like, you know what you got to do?
You just got to think until you make it
And I kind of convinced myself of that
I was like, yeah, I actually have all of the cognitive resources
(17:53):
And the propositional knowledge to do great in this new job
But what I realized is the reason why I was anxious
Is because I wasn't fully prepared
Because I wasn't procedurally prepared
Because this was the first time that I actually procedurally was in the world
Embodying all those propositions that I memorized, right?
And so that's why I was anxious
Because I actually was unprepared
(18:15):
Well, I mean, working in this world
Like working in anything like social work, clinical therapy
Any of that world where you're working with other people
Their emotions, their feelings, you know, goal setting
Whatever it is you're working on, like with those clients
Experience is not
I mean, professionalism, background knowledge
And almost the most important part is experience
(18:39):
But I do think personality definitely plays a key
When it comes with working in the field
Be higher in trade openness?
I guess that's one way of putting it, you know
Like, I'm
You have to be incredibly empathetic
Empathetic and compassionate
Yeah, because you know that
You have to celebrate the small wins
(19:01):
Because you know that some people are just so off the beaten path
That just like one positive step towards the right direction
Well, it depends
Because also at some points you're going to work at something
With somebody from a completely different perspective
Than you're familiar with
Well, yeah, sometimes it's going to be totally out of the box
Like a game of Uno or a game of Jenga
(19:22):
Out of the box
Those are fun, I'm familiar with that
It builds relationships
And over time
A way of like this is a different way in
And it depends on who you're working
I mean, there's again
There's no way to truly understand
The amount of experiences when working with people
(19:45):
You know, especially in like this sort of world
Because everybody's going to have a different experience
And you know what?
Sure, I'm agreeing with you
I think philosophy should help a way on how like people
Like in our positions can work with learned experience
Because when people focus too much on like CBT for example
(20:07):
It's just that technically doesn't actually work for everyone
Do you know what I mean?
And I think this is where the beneficial of understanding
Of more mysticism, religions
You know, will be beneficial to people
There are other methodologies by which can produce therapeutic outcomes
That are not just our philosophical proposition
(20:28):
Absolutely, and a lot of that is
That sounded like chat GPT
Yeah, right
Don't we all just sound like chat GPT at the end of the day?
I'd love to just record like five hours of myself talking
Like talk like me
You know, see
I want to see how insane I really am
No, no, okay, so here's the thing
So chat GPT has a memory, right?
It's building up your conversations
You should ask it to have a conversation with you
(20:50):
But try to take on your perspective
Can you like have you ever just as in been like
Build me a philosophy of myself
You can, yeah, yeah
My girlfriend actually sent me a prompt where you ask it
Based off of all of our interactions
Give me a summary of what you think
Like I am truly like
And it was really good
(21:11):
Based on all our interactions
Sure, we've discussed
Damn, you got like a British accent?
Yeah, I always do the British accent
Are you ready?
So the prompt is based off of all of our interactions
Can you give me a detailed summary of what you think I'm like
And what you think my core beliefs are
Based on all of our interactions
Can you give me a detailed summary of what you think I'm like
(21:35):
And what you think my core beliefs are
Oh, sure
From our interactions
I gather you're deeply intellectual
With a strong interest in social issues
And the dynamics of human behavior
You're drawn to exploring complex philosophical concepts
Particularly those related to power and societal structures
You're also practical and compassionate
(21:57):
Focusing on applying theoretical knowledge to real world problems
Especially in the realm of social work
Your diverse culinary tastes and interest in health conscious meal planning
Suggest you value variety and well-being
Overall, you appear thoughtful, curious, and committed to making a positive impact in your field
(22:19):
And the lives of others
Does that sound about right?
Interesting
I see where it pulls from
Obviously it's not an all
It's only had a few months to actually get to know you
Yeah, and I use it to learn
I gotta be honest, I have this one professor that is a potato
Wait, wait, wait, slow down
(22:41):
Please describe what that means
You never heard that term?
Like, oh, I'm a total potato
Basically means useless
They're a rock
They're a potato, you know what I mean?
They might as well just lay, you might as well put a potato in front of the class that sits there
And just like
A potato flew around my room before you came
(23:04):
Okay, okay
So I have this one professor that's like a total potato
And everything that they teach
I literally put into chat GBT and then I start discussing it
And then I take notes on that
And I ask it for sources to kind of double check to make sure that what it is giving me is actually correct
But it has been an amazing educational source in the classroom
(23:27):
For when you have a potato of a teacher
My girlfriend's professor in nursing school is honestly brutally, disgustingly horrible
And she pays for the full version of chat GBT
And that's been saving her ass
Oh yeah, no, listen
Dude, I mean, the first year of social work school
But isn't it crazy that the mechanism by which we are learning the most is absolutely free?
(23:50):
And you're paying how much money to go to social work school?
I don't want to talk about it
You know what I mean?
I mean, like, much of the benefit I get actually is from the professor's experience
And their conversations on things that they're interested in, they're working in
You know what I mean?
So like, there is a benefit with that
You know, so like, in some classes I pay attention, in other classes the professors are potatoes
(24:13):
And you're trying to follow your curiosity
Yeah, exactly
This is a huge tangent, we can kind of end it here
Is there any sound argument in your worldview that what Sam Altman and what Ilya and the leaders of OpenAI have created
Might be one of the greatest gifts to mankind?
To answer it like a Zen monk, we shall see
(24:34):
And we shall see
Seriously, I don't know
Dad, do you know that that's like the koan?
We shall see how it ends up
But I think right now it's just an amazing gift to humanity
I think it's worth to give the Nobel Peace Prize to
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.