February 19, 2025 • 31 mins
Too many companies are stuck doing business with customers using methods that are long expired. Because of the rapid rate of technological change and influence on everyday interactions, customers have come to expect more of companies with their digital experiences. Digital Transformation is “An intentional, coordinated, and consistent effort to move an organization from its current state to an aspirational future state by digitally innovating their customer experience and business model to achieve strategic outcomes.” It’s not a matter of “IF”, but “WHEN” and “HOW”. In this episode we discuss organizational maturity, transformation readiness, and key points along the Digital Transformation journey.
Thanks for listening and be on the lookout for more episodes. To learn more, visit us at www.guntergroup.com, or explore additional content on our LinkedIn page. Be sure to subscribe so you can follow along with the release of each episode.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Thoughtful Action, Tangible
Results, Bettering YourBusiness, a podcast from the
Gunter Group.
Here, we believe that everybusiness decision has the power
to spark transformative businesschange.
We're not just about theories.
We deep dive into strategicissues that impact
organizations.
Thank you for joining us todayas we explore critical topics in
(00:21):
the business world.
Our goal, to arm you withactionable steps to deliver real
business results.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
I'm Nate Ferguson, senior consultant with the
Gunter Group.
And with me today is Matt Bader,partner and digital
transformation expert at theGunter Group.
Thanks for joining us today tohear about our perspective,
approach and insights intodigital transformation.
Matt, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Nate.
Thanks for having me.
Matt, we're glad that you'rehere.
But before we dive into ourtopic, can you tell us a bit
(00:53):
about yourself and why we'rehere talking about digital
transformation?
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Yep.
So I guess to start, maybe I'llgo, I'll go way back to the
early days.
Because it does tie to kind ofmy career path and where I ended
up today.
So originally, like my firstpassion as I think about like my
quote unquote professionalcareer was really in the pursuit
of athletics.
(01:16):
So I was passionate abouthockey.
I played ice hockey growing upand from a very early age knew
that's what I wanted to do andpursue into college and
potentially beyond.
Long story short, I pursued thatpath.
I enjoyed a lot of successes andfailures and ultimately ended up
getting recruited to play at theAir Force Academy.
(01:38):
And so, you know, of through thepursuit of sport ended up, uh,
in a military institution where,you know, I was really focused
both, uh, intentionally and bythe environment that I was
placed into, uh, on leading andjust challenging and ambiguous
environments.
Uh, and that's really where Istarted to pursue that, uh,
(02:00):
that, that discipline a littlebit more intentionally through
the path that hockey had takenme on, uh, enjoyed, uh, playing
hockey there for four years,pursuing my education i served
as a two-time captain of thatteam uh but then eventually that
that path of hockey uh pivotedright because i eventually had
to serve a military commitmentafter graduation so that first
(02:24):
chapter of my life uh you knowreally investing my passion
pursuing athletics buildingleadership and teamwork through
those experiences pivoted to uhto a military environment so i
served as an officer for fiveand a half years in the air
force uh I spent some time as acontracting officer on the East
(02:44):
Coast and did a little time inthe Middle East before my wife
and I eventually decided that itwas time to kind of transition
from the military and settledown and start a family.
So we moved back to the Portlandarea and met Mike Gunter about
the time that he was foundingthe Gunter Group.
So I was one of the firstemployees, have been doing
(03:06):
management consulting, which iskind of my latest chapter in my
professional journey.
ever since.
And, you know, why I'm heretalking about transformation and
more specifically digital, youknow, I've done a lot of things
at the Gunter Group or TGG overthe last 13 years.
But kind of my sweet spot, andfrankly, the sweet spot of much
(03:27):
of our firm is really helpingorganizations work through their
most critical initiatives.
And a lot of those are whenchange is hard, right?
And how do you get anorganization to both mobilize
around the fact that they needto change or want to change?
How do you bring an entireorganization through a new way
(03:51):
of working?
So we refer to transformation, alot within the firm, and a lot
of our clients, frankly, engageus for support on big
transformation efforts.
And, you know, I think everyonesees over the last number of
years that digitaltransformation has been very
prominent in the minds of ofleaders for a number of reasons
(04:11):
that I think we'll talk abouttoday.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks for sharing a bit aboutyour background, how you got
here, and a bit about our firm.
We've got a few really criticaltopics to dive into today.
So first, we're going to share alittle bit about TGG's
perspective and definition ofdigital transformation,
including its importance to yourbusiness, assessing the
readiness, and where to start.
(04:34):
Next, we'll discuss some keyquestions paired with practical
recommendations, like how to useour digital transformation
starter kit.
So Matt, let's get started.
Our first question is what is soimportant about digital
transformation?
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Well, I think the first thing is we should really
align on what digitaltransformation means and how do
we at TGG think about it and howdo we try and talk about that
with our client base.
So TGG's definition, I'm justgoing to read this briefly, is
an intentional, coordinated, andconsistent effort to move an
organization from its currentstate to an aspirational future
(05:09):
state by digitally innovatingtheir customer experience And
the business model to achievestrategic outcomes.
So I know that's, that's a lotto take in.
But I think for me, there's acouple core elements associated
with that definition that aresuper important.
So first and foremost, one, youhave to define an aspirational
(05:30):
future state for your business,and you have to continually and
intentionally be moving towardsthat, that future state.
So it's kind of that continuousimprovement mindset, right?
What is the aspirational visionof what we want this
organization to be?
And then how do we continuallymove towards that goal over
time?
I think the second component isreally that you're leveraging
(05:51):
digital technologies andinnovation, not just for
technology's sake, but toimprove the customer experience,
right?
What are the customer outcomesfor your organization?
And then how do those alsoimprove the business outcomes
for your organization and thestrategic outcomes that you've
set for your team?
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
Yeah.
And with that definition, Ican't help but think of the
digital transformationimperative.
And so now that we understandwhat it is, help us
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
understand why is it so important then?
(06:44):
Why is it, you know, one of themost commonly discussed terms in
business these days, but alsoone of the most misunderstood,
right?
And I think what we're seeingis, you know, the pace of change
for business and fororganizations, the agility that
(07:04):
people have to have to bestserve their customers, to
respond to different marketforces, that pace of change is
rapid these days.
And, you know, the technologicalinnovation, the digital
innovation that we're seeing,the tools, the things that are
available to every organizationand accessible to every
(07:27):
organization of every shape,size and scale is pretty
incredible.
And so what you're seeing isthat is influencing customers
expectations across industries,across business segments.
A great example would be, youknow, the experience that you
have on Spotify influencing howyou think about your Alaska
(07:50):
Airlines boarding experience,right?
You know, we're serving clientsacross industries.
It's not just the technologynative organizations anymore
that have to be thinkingdigitally.
It's the insurance companies ofthe world, right?
It's the government agencies ofthe world.
You know, we've supported localcity governments in digitizing
(08:13):
You know, they're permittingexperience, right?
These are some of the most bluecollar folks, inspectors and
construction workers nowexpecting a digital experience
from their local citygovernment.
So that's an example, maybe inpractice of how we think about
the digital transformationimperative.
(08:34):
If you are a leader, if you haveresponsibility for a function,
an organization, a set of teams,and you're serving somebody,
which is every business, everynonprofit, every government
entity, then you should bethinking about digital
transformation in some form orfashion.
SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
Yeah, with all these factors from customer
expectations, their needs, theirwants, as well as the pace of
change with what our competitorsare going on or market dynamics,
sounds like a lot ofcomplicating factors.
And so I think one of the greatthings that we've come up with
is this digital transformationstarter kit.
So just talk a little bit aboutthat before we move on to the
next question.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yeah.
So, you know, assuming that youbuy into what we're saying,
which is the digitaltransformation imperative is
real, you should be thinkingabout how digital innovation
impacts your organization.
You know, we tried to step backand be like, well, if I was a
leader, how would I make senseof this imperative?
(09:37):
How would I start to think aboutwithin my area of responsibility
or my scope of influence?
transforming my organizationdigitally, both for my
customers, but also for thebusiness outcomes that I'm
trying to drive or the strategicoutcomes I'm trying to drive for
my organization.
So we created a starter kit thatreally tries to give some high
(09:59):
level context with data, likehow is the world changing?
Why is digital transformationimperative.
And then we tried to set thestage for how you should be
thinking about about bothassessing where your
organization is at and makingprogress to make it better over
time.
So I'm sure we'll dig into thatmore throughout this
(10:20):
conversation.
But we tried to make it aninformative but easy and
practical read.
And at the end, we also includedsome real tools that you can use
from the second you finish theread to both align your
organization on what you'retrying to do and assess where
you're at and where you'regoing.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Yeah.
And if folks are feeling a bitoverwhelmed with how this might
apply to their world and theirbusiness or their function, if
they're a leader or they'rethinking about strategy.
This is something that can be anexciting thing for an
organization.
It's not just changing thecustomer's experience and maybe
the way that you did business,but it can have some real
(11:01):
impacts on the organization.
So tell us a little bit.
I can tell there's someexcitement in your voice, having
lived through this a couple oftimes and have been thinking
about this for quite a while asa leader here at TGG.
So what excites you about that?
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
I think the thing that excites me the most about
where we're at with digitaltransformation and how
ubiquitous it's becoming acrossdifferent industries and
organizations and teams and isjust the potential that it
represents both for customersand customers and for
(11:34):
organizations to improve theirown business.
I think those that know me well,it's like I do have a creative
bent to the way that I engagewith the world, whether that be
music or things like that.
And I think there's a creativitythat's inherent in the potential
(11:56):
that lives with digitaltransformation that's really
exciting.
You don't have to be the world'sleading expert on digital or
technologies.
You don't need to be the CEO ofa fortune 100 company to affect
really, really positive changefor your customers and your
organization.
And there is, I think what we'reseeing with our clients, and
(12:21):
certainly how we're trying toinfluence those organizations
positively is There is a way ofexecuting against digital
transformation initiatives overtime that really empower the
organization to get creative atthe team level to solve problems
in a really, really excitingway.
SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Yeah, that's really cool.
And it sounds like maybe there'sa momentum factor here.
Once you get started and you canget going.
So share with us an example ofone of those successes after
having built some momentum,maybe taking the plunge, jumping
off the deep end, whatever youwant to say with maybe tackling
something as daunting as digitaltransformation.
But share an example of one ofthose positive experiences.
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
Yeah, for sure.
So, you know, maybe a good,simple example for folks to kind
of trace this through in realtangible terms.
You know, our organizationsworked across a number of
industries, but an example thatcomes to mind for me, you know,
we've served, you know, clientsin the education industry and,
(13:25):
you know, obviously, you youknow, prospective families
looking for care for their kidsare going to engage digitally
with an organization, right?
They're looking for informationabout the best place to get care
for their particular child.
And one of our clients, youknow, had an experience that as
a person starts to move frominquiring about, you know, care
(13:48):
for their kid and into anenrollment, so, you know,
transacting information throughdigital means to enroll their
child in the service So, youknow, in a real practical sense,
let me engage with you as abusiness.
There were some real likecustomer experience barriers,
right?
Simple things like moving to adigital portal that frankly
(14:11):
didn't represent or look likethe organization's front end
experience when people areinquiring about care.
So, you know, people gettingconfused.
Am I even engaging with the sameorganization as the one that I
inquired about?
And obviously that hasimplications on just their
overall experience and trust andconsideration as a provider for
(14:35):
care for their kids.
So, you know, seeing thatorganization kind of reorganize,
focus their teams around thedigital experience And then how
that experience translates tothe actual physical care for,
for their customers, kids, uh,it was incredible, right?
So seeing it come from a prettynegative experience and then
(14:57):
teams really focused onvisioning what an ideal
experience would look like,breaking that down into discrete
features and releases that theycould pilot and test with
customers over time made atremendous impact on the folks
they're trying to serve.
Now, the other side of the coin,back to our definition at the
(15:18):
beginning, you know, there's thecustomer-facing goals, there's
also the, the business goals ofthe organization.
And, you know, the improvementsin those experiences can, can
really have real direct businessimplications on things like, you
know, consideration andconversion and, and frankly,
(15:40):
profitability for theorganization.
So, so that's where that like,kind of excitement and the
creativity that, you know, therubber meets the road back to
the definition we talked aboutat the beginning.
It's continuously improving thatdigital experience over time for
both customers and the business.
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
When you were sharing thatexample, that future state that
you have to envision, right,means new work in new ways.
And the reorganizing the teamsand the different approach to
innovation in that example thatyou shared really highlights
that for me.
So thanks for doing that.
So thinking about some of theother clients we've worked with
(16:19):
in digital transformation, whatare some of the, one of the
biggest hangups ormisconceptions organizations
have or experience with digitaltransformation?
Where do they get stuck?
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Yeah, I think I would answer this question in a
couple ways.
I think like, you know, maybe ameta misconception, if you will.
I'll start there.
And then maybe I'll give yousome more tangible examples of
common misconceptions we see.
But like the meta misconceptionis that just because you have a
desire to do digitaltransformation, or you've put it
(16:53):
on your strategic plan, oryou've made, you know, a
financial and a resourceinvestment, from your
organization into that.
People think that the desire andthe investment alone is enough
to make them successful.
And, you know, our researchshows and research that we see,
(17:14):
you know, online shows thatroughly like 70% of digital
transformation efforts fail toreach their original stated
goals.
And I think, you know, for somepeople that'll be surprising.
I think for many people inconsulting, it's actually not
that surprising.
It's fairly in line with bigenterprise, you know,
(17:36):
transformation efforts or changeinitiatives, right?
This stuff is hard work, right?
So the intention is good.
It's a good first step, but it'snot enough.
And that's why, you know, atTGG, we think that folks fail
because they don't put in theearly work into what we call
(17:58):
digital transformationreadiness.
They're not preparing theorganization to undergo the a
new way of working at scale, andthey struggle, right?
And they can make biginvestments and make little
progress towards their originalgoals.
SPEAKER_02 (18:16):
Yeah, a different version of counting the costs
and really checking if you havethe intestinal fortitude, if you
will, to undertake such a bigand important sort of thing.
And I think in the DigitalTransformation Starter Kit, we
get a little bit more detailedin talking about the common
digital pitfalls.
So check that out.
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
One thing I did want to just bring up, Nate, is like
we referenced this starter kit.
You should definitely godownload it.
You know, there's a ton ofinformation in there that's and
visuals.
It's a nice pairing to theconversation we're having today.
You know, so I described kind ofthat high level misconception.
We talked about digitaltransformation readiness.
(18:57):
We give you some more detailedstructure on what does readiness
mean.
And and for us, we we've kind ofput together a model for folks
to use in this starter kit.
So if you're a leader beinglike, well, is my organization
ready?
You know, are we ready to dosomething, you know, of this
magnitude and scope and scale inthe digital space?
(19:18):
Or maybe you're stuck, right?
Your organization hastechnically been doing a project
or program called digitaltransformation, but you're not
seeing the outcomes materializeand you don't know why.
Check out the digitaltransformation readiness model
that we have in there andframework that we have.
So, you know, it's reallybreaking the organization down
(19:40):
into a couple of keycapabilities that we would
typically see in a highperforming digital organization.
So, you know, I'll share thesebriefly, but, you know, we have
a domain called strategy, right?
One called organization,process, technology, customer
and culture.
And it really helps you frame upand think about, you how well
(20:05):
the organization is prepared inthose different areas to
undertake a digitaltransformation effort.
Absolutely.
I think
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
it's something that can help folks go from talking
the talk to walking the walk.
And so if you're interested inchecking out the digital
transformation starter kit, goto guntergroup.com and search
digital transformation.
It'll be linked there along withsome other materials we've had
with thoughts that we shared orother experiences around digital
transformation.
But that's the best way to getit.
Thanks for highlighting allthose details, Matt.
SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
Nate, the other half of your question, I think that
maybe I didn't jump to more, youknow, in more detail is just
what are the common likemisconceptions that we see
across industries and acrossclients?
And I kind of hit on theoverarching umbrella or that
meta misconception.
But, you know, I can give some,frankly, just common
(20:57):
misconceptions that I'm suremany folks listening to this
conversation might be familiarwith.
Yeah, let's do it.
Let's hear it.
So, you know, there's obviouslya list of common misconceptions
in our digital transformationstarter kit.
You should check it out and seeif there are any of these like
that resonate with you and yourcurrent organization or what
(21:18):
you've seen in a past life.
I'll just highlight a couplejust for the sake of the
conversation.
So one I alluded to at thebeginning, which is just
treating digital differently.
as a project.
So we see this a lot, right?
Companies realize their digitalexperience and how they leverage
digital innovation to furthertheir business isn't where they
(21:40):
want it to be.
They're leaving opportunity onthe table.
They throw it on a strategicplan or a roadmap.
They slap a dollar value and anaccountable leader against it.
And everyone in the organizationlooks at that person and their
teams and says, OK, are we done?
And this is something that wecome across a lot.
(22:01):
And it's a big mindset shift forsome organizations.
But the companies that we see orthe organizations we see that
really are doing digital theright way, they're They're
treating it like continuousimprovement initiative.
It is a different way ofworking.
It's a commitment to innovatingdigitally over time to serve the
customers and the business inthe right way.
(22:23):
It's not a one and done projectwhere you check the box and, you
know, roll out the missionaccomplished banner and call it
good.
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
Right.
Maintenance mode won't cut itfor this sort of thing.
Right.
It's a new way of embracingdoing work.
Maybe that means some newcultural things as well as some
new practical things.
So thanks for highlighting thatone.
Is there any others
SPEAKER_01 (22:47):
you want to share before we move on to the last
portion of the discussion?
(23:08):
came from a differentorganization and this is how
we've always done it.
They treat digital as.
The point is that thetechnological tools that
underlie it, which couldn't befarther from the truth.
And that's really why we triedto hit that definition hard
early in this conversation.
It is ultimately about thatcommitment to improving customer
(23:29):
outcomes and business outcomescontinuously over time.
Technology is part of the waythat you get there, but it
should not be the focus of.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Yeah, it strikes me that this is a highly
collaborative thing.
It's not just for one group orone team, but can cut across
large portions of theorganization, partnerships with
other groups that may not havehad good relationships before or
whatever else.
So it's quite a broad thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Yep.
Yeah.
And then, you know, another onethat comes to mind is we call
this corporate trench warfare,right?
So, you know, often we come intoorganizations to try and help
with digital initiatives.
And the unfortunate reality thatwe've run into, you know, in
many cases is you have businessstakeholders and IT stakeholders
(24:19):
sitting across the trench,pointing fingers, and frankly,
blaming each other on the lackof progress that they're making
towards their digital goals.
goals or their business goals.
And...
I won't get too deep intoexplaining why we think that is.
I think in some cases, it's moreabout a structural problem
(24:41):
within the organization and justa philosophical divide in the
way that people think abouttackling that problem based on
where they sit on the teams.
And we've found you can be verysuccessful in being thoughtful
about how you structure teams totackle digital problems.
(25:01):
you can be very successful inbringing folks together through
common experiences, trainings,common goals, and really cut
down those barriers and getpeople focused on what's really
important, which is driving theoutcomes.
SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
Yeah, those are super interesting insights.
And I can imagine over theyears, some of those were hard
lessons to learn, you know, butI'm glad we've been able to
distill them into thisperspective to share with folks.
UNKNOWN (25:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
Leading into the last question for this portion
of the discussion, folks may bethinking about, gee, I
understand what digitaltransformation is and a little
bit of the ups and downs andwhat the opportunity is, and
maybe that's exciting.
And so what's yourrecommendation for folks who
think that digitaltransformation may be something
their organization needs tothink about or rethink about, or
(25:52):
someone's org who is stuck andis struggling with adapting with
all of that?
Where would you tell them tostart?
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
My biggest piece of advice to leaders who are
thinking about affecting changethrough digital transformation
is start within your span ofcontrol.
Don't feel like you either haveno control or influence on
moving your organizationforward.
And don't be on the other end ofthe spectrum thinking that the
(26:21):
entire weight of theorganization is on your
shoulders.
You know, we discussed thisbriefly at the beginning, but,
you know, every team, Everyfunction, every division, every
company within a suite ofcompanies, they are serving
customers.
And it could be some combinationof internal or external
(26:43):
customers.
How you leverage digitaltechnologies to improve that
experience and improve theoutcomes for your organization,
there is opportunity there.
to affect change in a positiveway there.
And I would say start withinyour span of control.
I would also recommend todownload our starter kit.
(27:04):
I know that's a littleself-promotion, but I really do
think that it gives you anexcellent tool to get your head
around how to think aboutdigital transformation, how to
think about readiness for theorganization.
And you can use it as a verypractical tool to start aligning
folks on your team, toconceptually bring leaders
(27:27):
together on the same page withwhat needs to be done.
And frankly, with thatcontinuous improvement mindset,
you can start to chip away.
It doesn't have to be thismassive enterprise initiative
where you align everybody outthe gate.
You can make an influence changewithin your span of control.
SPEAKER_02 (27:49):
You're thinking back to something you said earlier
about the Yeah.
The answer is yesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
No, I think, um, Yeah, I think the time is now.
Like I said, if you focus onyour span of control and you
really get practical with howyou're making progress for your
customers and your businessfunction, you can always start
today.
We've actually seen a lot ofleaders do this regularly.
(28:33):
obviously for their customersand their teams, but also to
further their own careers,right?
It's a way to expand theinfluence and the impact you can
have within an organization.
It's a way to collaborate withpeers and other leaders across
the organization.
And frankly, it's the way togalvanize change, right?
(28:54):
within organizations thatsometimes can get stagnant, not
by any intention, but throughscope, scale, and growth that
makes it more complex to movethe needle for customers over
time.
SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
Yeah, so it's not a matter of if, but when your
organization and how you doadapt and engage with customers
in this way and maybe thinkdifferently about the world.
Thanks for walking us throughall that, Matt.
I appreciate the depth thatyou've gone into in some of
these questions.
To sort of summarize some of thekey points that we covered or
some of the takeaways, what arethose three bullets to leave us
(29:28):
with today?
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
So put most simply, like digital transformation is
an imperative.
If you're not thinking about it,you should.
So that's first and foremost,start to educate yourself on
what it is and what it means foryour organization and your
teams.
I think the second thing isinvest in readiness for the
organization.
Too many organizations, teams,functions, leaders, leaders, You
(29:54):
know, they're chasing theconcept of digital
transformation without puttingin the work to ready the
organization to do itsuccessfully.
These change initiatives areabout people at the end of the
day.
And navigating people throughchange is hard.
Put in the work to ready theorganization to do a digital
(30:14):
transformation effort.
And last but not least, I think.
You know, these things arealways imperfect.
They're hard.
We've seen these types ofefforts transpire over years at
multiple organizations andmultiple industries.
Expect that it's going to bedifficult.
Expect that it's not going toplay out in the exact way that
(30:35):
you wish or hoped it would.
But also expect that.
The people and the teams thatare aligned to the vision for
what this could be are going tosurprise you.
They're going to deliverexciting new digital experiences
for customers in ways that youcould have never mapped out from
the beginning.
So embrace both sides of thecoin.
(30:56):
Embrace the imperfection oflarge enterprise transformation
initiatives and focus oncontinuous improvement over time
for both your customers and yourbusiness.
SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Well, Matt, thanks for walking us through all that.
I've had a great timeintroducing you to our audience
and getting to know more aboutdigital transformation.
I hope this has beenilluminating to our audience as
much as it has been for me.
And with that, from Matt Bader,I'm Nate Ferguson.
Talk to you next time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
This has been thoughtful action, tangible
results presented by the GunterGroup.
To discover how the Gunter Groupcan help your organization
maximize its potential, visitguntergroup.com.
Thanks for listening.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast platform
to stay updated on our latestcontent.
Welcome to Thoughtful Action, Tangible
Results, Bettering YourBusiness, a podcast from the
Gunter Group.
Here, we believe that everybusiness decision has the power
to spark transformative businesschange.
We're not just about theories.
We deep dive into strategicissues that impact
organizations.
Thank you for joining us todayas we explore critical topics in
(00:21):
the business world.
Our goal, to arm you withactionable steps to deliver real
business results.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
I'm Nate Ferguson, senior consultant with the
Gunter Group.
And with me today is Matt Bader,partner and digital
transformation expert at theGunter Group.
Thanks for joining us today tohear about our perspective,
approach and insights intodigital transformation.
Matt, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Nate.
Thanks for having me.
Matt, we're glad that you'rehere.
But before we dive into ourtopic, can you tell us a bit
(00:53):
about yourself and why we'rehere talking about digital
transformation?
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Yep.
So I guess to start, maybe I'llgo, I'll go way back to the
early days.
Because it does tie to kind ofmy career path and where I ended
up today.
So originally, like my firstpassion as I think about like my
quote unquote professionalcareer was really in the pursuit
of athletics.
(01:16):
So I was passionate abouthockey.
I played ice hockey growing upand from a very early age knew
that's what I wanted to do andpursue into college and
potentially beyond.
Long story short, I pursued thatpath.
I enjoyed a lot of successes andfailures and ultimately ended up
getting recruited to play at theAir Force Academy.
(01:38):
And so, you know, of through thepursuit of sport ended up, uh,
in a military institution where,you know, I was really focused
both, uh, intentionally and bythe environment that I was
placed into, uh, on leading andjust challenging and ambiguous
environments.
Uh, and that's really where Istarted to pursue that, uh,
(02:00):
that, that discipline a littlebit more intentionally through
the path that hockey had takenme on, uh, enjoyed, uh, playing
hockey there for four years,pursuing my education i served
as a two-time captain of thatteam uh but then eventually that
that path of hockey uh pivotedright because i eventually had
to serve a military commitmentafter graduation so that first
(02:24):
chapter of my life uh you knowreally investing my passion
pursuing athletics buildingleadership and teamwork through
those experiences pivoted to uhto a military environment so i
served as an officer for fiveand a half years in the air
force uh I spent some time as acontracting officer on the East
(02:44):
Coast and did a little time inthe Middle East before my wife
and I eventually decided that itwas time to kind of transition
from the military and settledown and start a family.
So we moved back to the Portlandarea and met Mike Gunter about
the time that he was foundingthe Gunter Group.
So I was one of the firstemployees, have been doing
(03:06):
management consulting, which iskind of my latest chapter in my
professional journey.
ever since.
And, you know, why I'm heretalking about transformation and
more specifically digital, youknow, I've done a lot of things
at the Gunter Group or TGG overthe last 13 years.
But kind of my sweet spot, andfrankly, the sweet spot of much
(03:27):
of our firm is really helpingorganizations work through their
most critical initiatives.
And a lot of those are whenchange is hard, right?
And how do you get anorganization to both mobilize
around the fact that they needto change or want to change?
How do you bring an entireorganization through a new way
(03:51):
of working?
So we refer to transformation, alot within the firm, and a lot
of our clients, frankly, engageus for support on big
transformation efforts.
And, you know, I think everyonesees over the last number of
years that digitaltransformation has been very
prominent in the minds of ofleaders for a number of reasons
(04:11):
that I think we'll talk abouttoday.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks for sharing a bit aboutyour background, how you got
here, and a bit about our firm.
We've got a few really criticaltopics to dive into today.
So first, we're going to share alittle bit about TGG's
perspective and definition ofdigital transformation,
including its importance to yourbusiness, assessing the
readiness, and where to start.
(04:34):
Next, we'll discuss some keyquestions paired with practical
recommendations, like how to useour digital transformation
starter kit.
So Matt, let's get started.
Our first question is what is soimportant about digital
transformation?
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Well, I think the first thing is we should really
align on what digitaltransformation means and how do
we at TGG think about it and howdo we try and talk about that
with our client base.
So TGG's definition, I'm justgoing to read this briefly, is
an intentional, coordinated, andconsistent effort to move an
organization from its currentstate to an aspirational future
(05:09):
state by digitally innovatingtheir customer experience And
the business model to achievestrategic outcomes.
So I know that's, that's a lotto take in.
But I think for me, there's acouple core elements associated
with that definition that aresuper important.
So first and foremost, one, youhave to define an aspirational
(05:30):
future state for your business,and you have to continually and
intentionally be moving towardsthat, that future state.
So it's kind of that continuousimprovement mindset, right?
What is the aspirational visionof what we want this
organization to be?
And then how do we continuallymove towards that goal over
time?
I think the second component isreally that you're leveraging
(05:51):
digital technologies andinnovation, not just for
technology's sake, but toimprove the customer experience,
right?
What are the customer outcomesfor your organization?
And then how do those alsoimprove the business outcomes
for your organization and thestrategic outcomes that you've
set for your team?
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
Yeah.
And with that definition, Ican't help but think of the
digital transformationimperative.
And so now that we understandwhat it is, help us
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
understand why is it so important then?
(06:44):
Why is it, you know, one of themost commonly discussed terms in
business these days, but alsoone of the most misunderstood,
right?
And I think what we're seeingis, you know, the pace of change
for business and fororganizations, the agility that
(07:04):
people have to have to bestserve their customers, to
respond to different marketforces, that pace of change is
rapid these days.
And, you know, the technologicalinnovation, the digital
innovation that we're seeing,the tools, the things that are
available to every organizationand accessible to every
(07:27):
organization of every shape,size and scale is pretty
incredible.
And so what you're seeing isthat is influencing customers
expectations across industries,across business segments.
A great example would be, youknow, the experience that you
have on Spotify influencing howyou think about your Alaska
(07:50):
Airlines boarding experience,right?
You know, we're serving clientsacross industries.
It's not just the technologynative organizations anymore
that have to be thinkingdigitally.
It's the insurance companies ofthe world, right?
It's the government agencies ofthe world.
You know, we've supported localcity governments in digitizing
(08:13):
You know, they're permittingexperience, right?
These are some of the most bluecollar folks, inspectors and
construction workers nowexpecting a digital experience
from their local citygovernment.
So that's an example, maybe inpractice of how we think about
the digital transformationimperative.
(08:34):
If you are a leader, if you haveresponsibility for a function,
an organization, a set of teams,and you're serving somebody,
which is every business, everynonprofit, every government
entity, then you should bethinking about digital
transformation in some form orfashion.
SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
Yeah, with all these factors from customer
expectations, their needs, theirwants, as well as the pace of
change with what our competitorsare going on or market dynamics,
sounds like a lot ofcomplicating factors.
And so I think one of the greatthings that we've come up with
is this digital transformationstarter kit.
So just talk a little bit aboutthat before we move on to the
next question.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yeah.
So, you know, assuming that youbuy into what we're saying,
which is the digitaltransformation imperative is
real, you should be thinkingabout how digital innovation
impacts your organization.
You know, we tried to step backand be like, well, if I was a
leader, how would I make senseof this imperative?
(09:37):
How would I start to think aboutwithin my area of responsibility
or my scope of influence?
transforming my organizationdigitally, both for my
customers, but also for thebusiness outcomes that I'm
trying to drive or the strategicoutcomes I'm trying to drive for
my organization.
So we created a starter kit thatreally tries to give some high
(09:59):
level context with data, likehow is the world changing?
Why is digital transformationimperative.
And then we tried to set thestage for how you should be
thinking about about bothassessing where your
organization is at and makingprogress to make it better over
time.
So I'm sure we'll dig into thatmore throughout this
(10:20):
conversation.
But we tried to make it aninformative but easy and
practical read.
And at the end, we also includedsome real tools that you can use
from the second you finish theread to both align your
organization on what you'retrying to do and assess where
you're at and where you'regoing.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Yeah.
And if folks are feeling a bitoverwhelmed with how this might
apply to their world and theirbusiness or their function, if
they're a leader or they'rethinking about strategy.
This is something that can be anexciting thing for an
organization.
It's not just changing thecustomer's experience and maybe
the way that you did business,but it can have some real
(11:01):
impacts on the organization.
So tell us a little bit.
I can tell there's someexcitement in your voice, having
lived through this a couple oftimes and have been thinking
about this for quite a while asa leader here at TGG.
So what excites you about that?
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
I think the thing that excites me the most about
where we're at with digitaltransformation and how
ubiquitous it's becoming acrossdifferent industries and
organizations and teams and isjust the potential that it
represents both for customersand customers and for
(11:34):
organizations to improve theirown business.
I think those that know me well,it's like I do have a creative
bent to the way that I engagewith the world, whether that be
music or things like that.
And I think there's a creativitythat's inherent in the potential
(11:56):
that lives with digitaltransformation that's really
exciting.
You don't have to be the world'sleading expert on digital or
technologies.
You don't need to be the CEO ofa fortune 100 company to affect
really, really positive changefor your customers and your
organization.
And there is, I think what we'reseeing with our clients, and
(12:21):
certainly how we're trying toinfluence those organizations
positively is There is a way ofexecuting against digital
transformation initiatives overtime that really empower the
organization to get creative atthe team level to solve problems
in a really, really excitingway.
SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Yeah, that's really cool.
And it sounds like maybe there'sa momentum factor here.
Once you get started and you canget going.
So share with us an example ofone of those successes after
having built some momentum,maybe taking the plunge, jumping
off the deep end, whatever youwant to say with maybe tackling
something as daunting as digitaltransformation.
But share an example of one ofthose positive experiences.
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
Yeah, for sure.
So, you know, maybe a good,simple example for folks to kind
of trace this through in realtangible terms.
You know, our organizationsworked across a number of
industries, but an example thatcomes to mind for me, you know,
we've served, you know, clientsin the education industry and,
(13:25):
you know, obviously, you youknow, prospective families
looking for care for their kidsare going to engage digitally
with an organization, right?
They're looking for informationabout the best place to get care
for their particular child.
And one of our clients, youknow, had an experience that as
a person starts to move frominquiring about, you know, care
(13:48):
for their kid and into anenrollment, so, you know,
transacting information throughdigital means to enroll their
child in the service So, youknow, in a real practical sense,
let me engage with you as abusiness.
There were some real likecustomer experience barriers,
right?
Simple things like moving to adigital portal that frankly
(14:11):
didn't represent or look likethe organization's front end
experience when people areinquiring about care.
So, you know, people gettingconfused.
Am I even engaging with the sameorganization as the one that I
inquired about?
And obviously that hasimplications on just their
overall experience and trust andconsideration as a provider for
(14:35):
care for their kids.
So, you know, seeing thatorganization kind of reorganize,
focus their teams around thedigital experience And then how
that experience translates tothe actual physical care for,
for their customers, kids, uh,it was incredible, right?
So seeing it come from a prettynegative experience and then
(14:57):
teams really focused onvisioning what an ideal
experience would look like,breaking that down into discrete
features and releases that theycould pilot and test with
customers over time made atremendous impact on the folks
they're trying to serve.
Now, the other side of the coin,back to our definition at the
(15:18):
beginning, you know, there's thecustomer-facing goals, there's
also the, the business goals ofthe organization.
And, you know, the improvementsin those experiences can, can
really have real direct businessimplications on things like, you
know, consideration andconversion and, and frankly,
(15:40):
profitability for theorganization.
So, so that's where that like,kind of excitement and the
creativity that, you know, therubber meets the road back to
the definition we talked aboutat the beginning.
It's continuously improving thatdigital experience over time for
both customers and the business.
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
When you were sharing thatexample, that future state that
you have to envision, right,means new work in new ways.
And the reorganizing the teamsand the different approach to
innovation in that example thatyou shared really highlights
that for me.
So thanks for doing that.
So thinking about some of theother clients we've worked with
(16:19):
in digital transformation, whatare some of the, one of the
biggest hangups ormisconceptions organizations
have or experience with digitaltransformation?
Where do they get stuck?
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Yeah, I think I would answer this question in a
couple ways.
I think like, you know, maybe ameta misconception, if you will.
I'll start there.
And then maybe I'll give yousome more tangible examples of
common misconceptions we see.
But like the meta misconceptionis that just because you have a
desire to do digitaltransformation, or you've put it
(16:53):
on your strategic plan, oryou've made, you know, a
financial and a resourceinvestment, from your
organization into that.
People think that the desire andthe investment alone is enough
to make them successful.
And, you know, our researchshows and research that we see,
(17:14):
you know, online shows thatroughly like 70% of digital
transformation efforts fail toreach their original stated
goals.
And I think, you know, for somepeople that'll be surprising.
I think for many people inconsulting, it's actually not
that surprising.
It's fairly in line with bigenterprise, you know,
(17:36):
transformation efforts or changeinitiatives, right?
This stuff is hard work, right?
So the intention is good.
It's a good first step, but it'snot enough.
And that's why, you know, atTGG, we think that folks fail
because they don't put in theearly work into what we call
(17:58):
digital transformationreadiness.
They're not preparing theorganization to undergo the a
new way of working at scale, andthey struggle, right?
And they can make biginvestments and make little
progress towards their originalgoals.
SPEAKER_02 (18:16):
Yeah, a different version of counting the costs
and really checking if you havethe intestinal fortitude, if you
will, to undertake such a bigand important sort of thing.
And I think in the DigitalTransformation Starter Kit, we
get a little bit more detailedin talking about the common
digital pitfalls.
So check that out.
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
One thing I did want to just bring up, Nate, is like
we referenced this starter kit.
You should definitely godownload it.
You know, there's a ton ofinformation in there that's and
visuals.
It's a nice pairing to theconversation we're having today.
You know, so I described kind ofthat high level misconception.
We talked about digitaltransformation readiness.
(18:57):
We give you some more detailedstructure on what does readiness
mean.
And and for us, we we've kind ofput together a model for folks
to use in this starter kit.
So if you're a leader beinglike, well, is my organization
ready?
You know, are we ready to dosomething, you know, of this
magnitude and scope and scale inthe digital space?
(19:18):
Or maybe you're stuck, right?
Your organization hastechnically been doing a project
or program called digitaltransformation, but you're not
seeing the outcomes materializeand you don't know why.
Check out the digitaltransformation readiness model
that we have in there andframework that we have.
So, you know, it's reallybreaking the organization down
(19:40):
into a couple of keycapabilities that we would
typically see in a highperforming digital organization.
So, you know, I'll share thesebriefly, but, you know, we have
a domain called strategy, right?
One called organization,process, technology, customer
and culture.
And it really helps you frame upand think about, you how well
(20:05):
the organization is prepared inthose different areas to
undertake a digitaltransformation effort.
Absolutely.
I think
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
it's something that can help folks go from talking
the talk to walking the walk.
And so if you're interested inchecking out the digital
transformation starter kit, goto guntergroup.com and search
digital transformation.
It'll be linked there along withsome other materials we've had
with thoughts that we shared orother experiences around digital
transformation.
But that's the best way to getit.
Thanks for highlighting allthose details, Matt.
SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
Nate, the other half of your question, I think that
maybe I didn't jump to more, youknow, in more detail is just
what are the common likemisconceptions that we see
across industries and acrossclients?
And I kind of hit on theoverarching umbrella or that
meta misconception.
But, you know, I can give some,frankly, just common
(20:57):
misconceptions that I'm suremany folks listening to this
conversation might be familiarwith.
Yeah, let's do it.
Let's hear it.
So, you know, there's obviouslya list of common misconceptions
in our digital transformationstarter kit.
You should check it out and seeif there are any of these like
that resonate with you and yourcurrent organization or what
(21:18):
you've seen in a past life.
I'll just highlight a couplejust for the sake of the
conversation.
So one I alluded to at thebeginning, which is just
treating digital differently.
as a project.
So we see this a lot, right?
Companies realize their digitalexperience and how they leverage
digital innovation to furthertheir business isn't where they
(21:40):
want it to be.
They're leaving opportunity onthe table.
They throw it on a strategicplan or a roadmap.
They slap a dollar value and anaccountable leader against it.
And everyone in the organizationlooks at that person and their
teams and says, OK, are we done?
And this is something that wecome across a lot.
(22:01):
And it's a big mindset shift forsome organizations.
But the companies that we see orthe organizations we see that
really are doing digital theright way, they're They're
treating it like continuousimprovement initiative.
It is a different way ofworking.
It's a commitment to innovatingdigitally over time to serve the
customers and the business inthe right way.
(22:23):
It's not a one and done projectwhere you check the box and, you
know, roll out the missionaccomplished banner and call it
good.
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
Right.
Maintenance mode won't cut itfor this sort of thing.
Right.
It's a new way of embracingdoing work.
Maybe that means some newcultural things as well as some
new practical things.
So thanks for highlighting thatone.
Is there any others
SPEAKER_01 (22:47):
you want to share before we move on to the last
portion of the discussion?
(23:08):
came from a differentorganization and this is how
we've always done it.
They treat digital as.
The point is that thetechnological tools that
underlie it, which couldn't befarther from the truth.
And that's really why we triedto hit that definition hard
early in this conversation.
It is ultimately about thatcommitment to improving customer
(23:29):
outcomes and business outcomescontinuously over time.
Technology is part of the waythat you get there, but it
should not be the focus of.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Yeah, it strikes me that this is a highly
collaborative thing.
It's not just for one group orone team, but can cut across
large portions of theorganization, partnerships with
other groups that may not havehad good relationships before or
whatever else.
So it's quite a broad thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Yep.
Yeah.
And then, you know, another onethat comes to mind is we call
this corporate trench warfare,right?
So, you know, often we come intoorganizations to try and help
with digital initiatives.
And the unfortunate reality thatwe've run into, you know, in
many cases is you have businessstakeholders and IT stakeholders
(24:19):
sitting across the trench,pointing fingers, and frankly,
blaming each other on the lackof progress that they're making
towards their digital goals.
goals or their business goals.
And...
I won't get too deep intoexplaining why we think that is.
I think in some cases, it's moreabout a structural problem
(24:41):
within the organization and justa philosophical divide in the
way that people think abouttackling that problem based on
where they sit on the teams.
And we've found you can be verysuccessful in being thoughtful
about how you structure teams totackle digital problems.
(25:01):
you can be very successful inbringing folks together through
common experiences, trainings,common goals, and really cut
down those barriers and getpeople focused on what's really
important, which is driving theoutcomes.
SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
Yeah, those are super interesting insights.
And I can imagine over theyears, some of those were hard
lessons to learn, you know, butI'm glad we've been able to
distill them into thisperspective to share with folks.
UNKNOWN (25:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
Leading into the last question for this portion
of the discussion, folks may bethinking about, gee, I
understand what digitaltransformation is and a little
bit of the ups and downs andwhat the opportunity is, and
maybe that's exciting.
And so what's yourrecommendation for folks who
think that digitaltransformation may be something
their organization needs tothink about or rethink about, or
(25:52):
someone's org who is stuck andis struggling with adapting with
all of that?
Where would you tell them tostart?
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
My biggest piece of advice to leaders who are
thinking about affecting changethrough digital transformation
is start within your span ofcontrol.
Don't feel like you either haveno control or influence on
moving your organizationforward.
And don't be on the other end ofthe spectrum thinking that the
(26:21):
entire weight of theorganization is on your
shoulders.
You know, we discussed thisbriefly at the beginning, but,
you know, every team, Everyfunction, every division, every
company within a suite ofcompanies, they are serving
customers.
And it could be some combinationof internal or external
(26:43):
customers.
How you leverage digitaltechnologies to improve that
experience and improve theoutcomes for your organization,
there is opportunity there.
to affect change in a positiveway there.
And I would say start withinyour span of control.
I would also recommend todownload our starter kit.
(27:04):
I know that's a littleself-promotion, but I really do
think that it gives you anexcellent tool to get your head
around how to think aboutdigital transformation, how to
think about readiness for theorganization.
And you can use it as a verypractical tool to start aligning
folks on your team, toconceptually bring leaders
(27:27):
together on the same page withwhat needs to be done.
And frankly, with thatcontinuous improvement mindset,
you can start to chip away.
It doesn't have to be thismassive enterprise initiative
where you align everybody outthe gate.
You can make an influence changewithin your span of control.
SPEAKER_02 (27:49):
You're thinking back to something you said earlier
about the Yeah.
The answer is yesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
No, I think, um, Yeah, I think the time is now.
Like I said, if you focus onyour span of control and you
really get practical with howyou're making progress for your
customers and your businessfunction, you can always start
today.
We've actually seen a lot ofleaders do this regularly.
(28:33):
obviously for their customersand their teams, but also to
further their own careers,right?
It's a way to expand theinfluence and the impact you can
have within an organization.
It's a way to collaborate withpeers and other leaders across
the organization.
And frankly, it's the way togalvanize change, right?
(28:54):
within organizations thatsometimes can get stagnant, not
by any intention, but throughscope, scale, and growth that
makes it more complex to movethe needle for customers over
time.
SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
Yeah, so it's not a matter of if, but when your
organization and how you doadapt and engage with customers
in this way and maybe thinkdifferently about the world.
Thanks for walking us throughall that, Matt.
I appreciate the depth thatyou've gone into in some of
these questions.
To sort of summarize some of thekey points that we covered or
some of the takeaways, what arethose three bullets to leave us
(29:28):
with today?
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
So put most simply, like digital transformation is
an imperative.
If you're not thinking about it,you should.
So that's first and foremost,start to educate yourself on
what it is and what it means foryour organization and your
teams.
I think the second thing isinvest in readiness for the
organization.
Too many organizations, teams,functions, leaders, leaders, You
(29:54):
know, they're chasing theconcept of digital
transformation without puttingin the work to ready the
organization to do itsuccessfully.
These change initiatives areabout people at the end of the
day.
And navigating people throughchange is hard.
Put in the work to ready theorganization to do a digital
(30:14):
transformation effort.
And last but not least, I think.
You know, these things arealways imperfect.
They're hard.
We've seen these types ofefforts transpire over years at
multiple organizations andmultiple industries.
Expect that it's going to bedifficult.
Expect that it's not going toplay out in the exact way that
(30:35):
you wish or hoped it would.
But also expect that.
The people and the teams thatare aligned to the vision for
what this could be are going tosurprise you.
They're going to deliverexciting new digital experiences
for customers in ways that youcould have never mapped out from
the beginning.
So embrace both sides of thecoin.
(30:56):
Embrace the imperfection oflarge enterprise transformation
initiatives and focus oncontinuous improvement over time
for both your customers and yourbusiness.
SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Well, Matt, thanks for walking us through all that.
I've had a great timeintroducing you to our audience
and getting to know more aboutdigital transformation.
I hope this has beenilluminating to our audience as
much as it has been for me.
And with that, from Matt Bader,I'm Nate Ferguson.
Talk to you next time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
This has been thoughtful action, tangible
results presented by the GunterGroup.
To discover how the Gunter Groupcan help your organization
maximize its potential, visitguntergroup.com.
Thanks for listening.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast platform
to stay updated on our latestcontent.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!