October 22, 2024 • 43 mins
Individuals thrive when they’re equipped to handle challenges.
Amy Hopper is a former agency owner and now founder of the business consultancy TOA. In this episode, Amy opens up about her journey through some serious challenges. She shares how those experiences helped her create a system that keeps teams (and individuals) focused, engaged, and productive.
Amy dives into practical tips on:
- Planning your day in a way that energizes you instead of draining you.
- Letting go of perfectionism so you can delegate more and grow faster.
- Overcoming resistance to change, both personally and within your team.
Her insights are packed with real-world lessons for leaders looking to build stronger, more resilient teams.
Follow Amy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyhopper/
Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/
Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.
This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Harv (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Handbook
(00:01):
Operations Podcast.
This podcast is brought to youby Scoro.
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Now let's get to the episode.
(01:28):
Hey all, welcome back to thepodcast.
So a confession to start, I havea bad habit of letting work, and
particularly my sense ofachievement and productivity,
influence how I feel aboutmyself at the end of each day.
I mean, I probably got into opsbecause I'm obsessed with
getting things done and wantingthings to be efficient, but that
can have a negative influence onmy mental health.
(01:48):
If I didn't get everything donethat I wanted to, even if those
expectations were unreasonable,the lingering guilt and anxiety
can ruin my evening.
Actually, that story reminds mea bit of a TV series some of you
may have seen called Severance.
When the employees in the seriesstep into their office, they
can't remember anything abouttheir personal lives, and when
they leave work, they can'tremember anything about their
(02:10):
work lives.
For better or worse, that's justnot how real life works.
We don't get a clean dividebetween who we are at work and
who we are at home.
What's happening in our personallives, in our relationships, how
well we slept, and our health,all of that can influence how we
get on with work on a given dayand like my story above, what
happens at work can easilyinfluence how we feel and behave
(02:32):
at home.
So what we're going to betalking about today is emotional
regulation, the psychology ofwork, why we act the way we do,
and how we, as agency leaders,can work towards creating a
culture that gets the best outof people by looking after their
well being.
We'll also be sharing some tipsand tricks on how you can plan
(02:53):
your day in a way that energizesyou rather than drains you.
Our guest today is Amy Hopper.
She's a former agency owner andnow founder of business
consultancy, the TOA Group.
Amy is a sociologist andentrepreneur.
She founded her first businessat 25.
She's overcome what you mightcall extreme personal
challenges.
I'm going to let her tell youher story in her own words in a
(03:15):
few minutes, but througheverything she's been through,
Amy's created a system thathelps individuals and teams
overcome their challenges andbecome more focused, time
efficient, engaged, andproductive.
That sounds like something wecould all learn and benefit
from, doesn't it?
So let's get into theconversation.
Amy, welcome to the show.
(03:35):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Amy Hopper (03:36):
It is a pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Harv (03:39):
There's so much you've done, so much you've
accomplished and so much you'veovercome.
Can you tell us your story,
Amy Hopper (03:45):
Oh gosh.
Quickly?
Harv (03:47):
Take as much time as you need.
Amy Hopper (03:49):
I've actually written some of it down because
I feel like if I don't, if Idon't, then I'll uh,
Harv (03:53):
You'll
Amy Hopper (03:54):
I'll miss details.
Okay.
So.
Yeah, it's been, it's been acolorful decade for sure, but,
essentially went to uni, studiedsociology, did my final thesis
in the sociology of work andalienation in the workplace,
then went straight into work andrealized that it was not for me.
But the nine to five classicstructure and hierarchical
(04:16):
system, I just thought, yeah,that's, that's not, I want to do
my own thing.
So I started my own agency at25.
It was a PPC search agency in,in the glory days, as we like to
call it, you know, when you usedto have to write your own code
in Excel,
Harv (04:31):
Right
Amy Hopper (04:32):
like, like, ah, how beautiful was that?
And, Sadly, a year later, I wasinvolved in a dangerous car
accident.
A woman came into our lane, hitme head on, ended up with
permanent spine damage.
And
Harv (04:48):
Oh no.
Amy Hopper (04:48):
yeah, just having to, you know, having a year old
business, what on earth am Igoing to do?
And, and running the business,pretty much like lying on my
back on the sofa.
And I think one year, I thinkeight, eight spinal procedures
just, just in the course of theyear, but managed to grow that
business to a top 30 Googlepartner agency, we won Drum
(05:12):
awards, won the Amazon businessaward and the business was doing
really beautifully.
Really
Harv (05:17):
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (05:18):
but got to a stage, I'm still undergoing so many
procedures, sometimes having touse a wheelchair and it got to
the point where the doctor said,yeah, you're going to need a
fusion.
Harv (05:29):
Okay.
Okay
Amy Hopper (05:29):
A titanium fusion at 31.
Harv (05:33):
Wow.
Amy Hopper (05:33):
In the December, in the January, we went into
lockdown.
Harv (05:38):
Mm.
Amy Hopper (05:39):
and, and then very, very sadly in, in the first
lockdown, I, I was widowed.
I was, I lost my, my husband andmy business partner and just,
Harv (05:47):
Oh my gosh.
Amy Hopper (05:48):
yeah, just being in this position of just, you know,
I was still using a wheelchair,wasn't able to, I'd lost my
body, lost my best friend, myhusband, and, and now thinking
about running a business,running an agency, which was
doing really well, when we wentand thinking, what on earth am I
(06:09):
going to do?
Harv (06:10):
Right.
Amy Hopper (06:10):
And, And there is a beautiful, there's quite a
beauty actually in being inthat, in that position of
surrender, full surrender and,your only way is up because
you're, you're just, you're onthe floor and cause it teaches
you the, it teaches you thebeauty of what's important.
Harv (06:28):
Right.
Amy Hopper (06:28):
What truly matters and what true value is.
Harv (06:31):
Mm
Amy Hopper (06:31):
so sold my business.
Sold my agency.
Harv (06:33):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (06:35):
Rebuilt my body, went, went traveling around
Europe solo, went solo hiking600 kilometers around Europe.
Harv (06:43):
Wow.
Amy Hopper (06:44):
Got to the position, obviously invested a huge amount
in therapy, self care, Mm.
studying psychology and, and,you know, training and building
my body and my mind back up to aplace where I was healthy.
Harv (06:57):
Mm
Amy Hopper (06:58):
And then people started to say to me, how did
you do it?
How are you, how are you here?
Harv (07:05):
hmm.
Amy Hopper (07:05):
Not only are you, but also smiling and, and able
to function and thrive.
And there was that British thingof instantly saying, Oh, well,
you know, you just put one footin front of the other
Harv (07:21):
Mm hmm.
Amy Hopper (07:22):
and realizing in myself that that wasn't true at
all, that I'd actually gone backto my, my training as a
sociologist and I'd, I'd goneback to my psychology, and I had
read every single self helpguide in the library and I'd
done the yoga ashrams and I'dtaken the supplements and I'd
Harv (07:41):
Right.
Amy Hopper (07:43):
gone from everything from sort of intensive trauma
EMDR therapy, all the waythrough to sort of mind, body
yoga experience and everythingin between, plus business
coaching, plus a bit of militarytraining and realized I created
a system,
Harv (07:56):
Wow.
Amy Hopper (07:56):
Not only what worked for me, but what worked within
business and what worked withinorganizations and worked for
individuals and teams.
And that's the system the, theTOA is based on today.
And I thought I need, this isn'tjust for me, I need to show
other people this.
They don't have to go throughwhat I went through in order to
achieve the same wisdom and thesame results.
Harv (08:18):
That is incredible.
Amy Hopper (08:19):
Thank you.
That, that, that, that covers,that covers.
Harv (08:26):
That, that is, that is intense.
You know, well done.
And that's just superinspirational.
And also that epiphany as well,you know, that, that's not easy
to come by or to say, otherpeople could learn from this or,
or benefit from some of thethings that you've learned.
So that's, that's, that'samazing.
(08:47):
So that's where you started TOAand that was a couple of years
ago.
Amy Hopper (08:51):
Yeah, so T-O-A, some people call it TOA, I don't, I
don't mind, I think there'showever, however people want to
pronounce it.
Yeah, that started in January2023.
Harv (09:00):
Mm.
Amy Hopper (09:00):
So, we started off as, as, well, although I hate
the word wellbeing and that'sanother story, but I started off
as a wellbeing consultancy forcorporates, for agencies, and
for, for businesses instressful, high stress
environment, and it's turnedinto a performance consultancy.
Harv (09:18):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (09:18):
That's, that's very much the way that, that the
direction the clients wanted totake it in.
And so that's what we did tofacilitate the need.
Harv (09:26):
Right.
So, I think I know what asociologist does, but the
sociology of work, you know, Imentioned this in the intro
about yourself.
What does that mean?
What is the sociology of work?
Amy Hopper (09:38):
Essentially in sociology, what you're studying
is, is you're studyingrelationships and structures.
Harv (09:44):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (09:44):
And sociology in itself is actually a subject
that is a, it's a rich tapestrywith threads from many different
subjects.
So you've got history in there,cultural studies, you've got
neuroscience, psychology,philosophy, anthropology, and
everything in between.
But essentially how sociologyworks, you, you are studying
(10:06):
everything from the micro levelin terms of this is an
individual, why is an individualmaking these decisions as part
of their personal makeup withinsociety, all the way up to the
macro of what are sociologicalstructures and cultures and what
are the behaviors that governwhy certain groups do things
(10:27):
both in the present andhistorically.
Harv (10:30):
Right.
Amy Hopper (10:30):
So in In terms of a company and in terms of a
business, it's really, reallyimportant actually to look at it
sociologically andpsychologically, rather than
simply applying, you know, liketraditional business coaching or
just economics, because peoplearen't numbers, people aren't,
(10:51):
they, they, and there'll be awhole host of reasons, both
within the business and outsideof the business, why your team,
individuals within your team,act the certain way that they
do.
And how we can help them tosupport them to make sure that
they are thriving within allenvironments.
Harv (11:08):
Right.
Okay.
So, you do some of your ownresearch.
Is that kind of the, thesociologist background and is
that separate to your work or,or has that kind of become all
part of TOA now as well?
Amy Hopper (11:23):
It's all part of TOA now.
I started it just as a bit offun.
Harv (11:27):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (11:28):
Because I have a, apparently a strange definition
of what I consider fun.
Let's do a sociological study,why not?
Harv (11:34):
That's amazing.
Amy Hopper (11:35):
The reason I started it is because You know, we
didn't want to just want to godown the route of, oh, well,
we're qualified or this person'sgot an MBA or this director's
got an MBA.
I've got a sociology degree,blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, we know what we'redoing.
Harv (11:49):
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (11:49):
It's, it's about, no, we are here as a service.
It's our job to service ourcustomers.
So let's find out what'shappening with our customers.
So for example, in the last bitof research, we took a number
of, well, 40 software houses andagencies within Europe.
So it was within the UK,Romania, Hungary, and Poland.
(12:12):
And we really got to the nittygritty through, through, it was
interview face to face interviewwith directors and owners of
those businesses.
You know, what was actuallyhappening within the agency,
within the software house, whereare the sticking points?
What is the world of work afterCOVID like?
What are the communicationchallenges that are coming up?
(12:33):
How is hybrid work versus remotework and just very, very, well,
what turned into essentiallywhat was essentially a chat
turned into a much largerresearch study where some very
key themes came throughout nomatter what the country, no
matter what the size of thebusiness.
(12:54):
And that's when we started doingmore and more of the research
because it allows us to see thechallenges that our clients are
actually having, allows us tokeep our ear to the ground.
And therefore the workshops thatwe produce and the content that
we produce is actually solvingthose challenges rather than
just us doing things on a whimand thinking, oh, it might get
(13:16):
picked up.
Harv (13:18):
Much more grounded in what people are talking about or
experiencing.
There's, there was a couple of,of kind of studies that you had
mentioned.
There, there was this, you'dmentioned something to me about
The Happiness Index, first ofall, and there was something
else about the, something aboutthe team is dead.
So maybe you can tell us aboutthose.
Amy Hopper (13:36):
I've got to be, I've got to be careful about what I
quote you in for in other chats.
Yeah.
Okay.
So happiness index.
So the lovely Matt, co founderof Happiness Index and I, we
started chatting just because ofcourse we work in similar spaces
and got on.
So, so well, got on like a houseon fire.
And then in one of our chats,we, we've discussed everything
(13:59):
and everything from neuroscienceall the, all the way through to,
I don't know what, what plantswe're planting in the garden,
but that came up was, this ideaof jealousy and envy within the
workplace.
And The Happiness Index is agreat company, they do a lot of
research, into what's happeningin teams and making sure that
you can create a happierworkplace because happy people
create better work.
(14:20):
And we realized that actually noone talks about jealousy.
No one talks about envy withinthe workplace.
And of course, a lot of peoplethink that they're intertwined
and that they're the same thingwhen they're actually quite
separate and that when you thinkabout the idea of toxic
workplace culture and cliques...
Harv (14:40):
mm.
Amy Hopper (14:40):
And alienation within the workplace, that
actually it's grounded injealousy and it's grounded in
these emotions, which, which areperceived as negative and people
hide because they're ashamed ofthem.
Harv (14:52):
Right.
Amy Hopper (14:53):
And so we ended up doing a couple of little surveys
on LinkedIn and a bit ofresearch into, one, has anyone
experienced someone beingjealous towards them and
therefore being alienated in theworkplace?
Harv (15:07):
Right.
Amy Hopper (15:07):
And, two, was anyone going to admit that they've been
jealous of someone else and howit impacted?
Harv (15:14):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (15:14):
And it was very, very interesting, the results
that came through.
Obviously you can imagine mostpeople have experienced it at
some point in their career, yetit's just not talked about.
So we, then we did a webinar,about it and got lots of people
involved.
Cause I think it's somethingthat really needs a, a lot more
(15:34):
focus
Harv (15:36):
Mm.
Amy Hopper (15:36):
also not as much shame around it for people to
just hold their hands up andgone.
Yeah, I've done that, but let'swork about how we can correct it
and make sure it doesn't have anegative impact in the
workplace.
Harv (15:48):
Right.
We do kind of try to, deny thosenegative emotions, don't we?
Like try to distance ourselvesfrom them.
and, and you're right, there isshame there when, when you think
about those kinds of things.
Amy Hopper (15:59):
For sure.
And you've actually said areally good point there.
You said the word negative,negative emotion.
Harv (16:03):
Mm.
Mm.
Amy Hopper (16:04):
I mean, a big thing that we try and do in TOA is
teach people that there is nosuch thing as a negative
emotion, that there is onlyemotion.
Harv (16:12):
Good point.
Amy Hopper (16:12):
And the how one reacts to it, the reaction is
negative and or positive.
So in terms of as if you'reenvious of someone that actually
envy is one of those emotionsthat on the surface, someone may
say, Oh, that's a negativeemotion, but actually it's your
driver and your direction.
It could be, Oh, I'm envious ofthis person, they can speak
(16:34):
Spanish.
Harv (16:35):
Yeah.
Amy Hopper (16:36):
I therefore, it could be your driver to, to
learn how to speak Spanish andtake Spanish lessons.
Harv (16:41):
Right.
Amy Hopper (16:42):
So it's quite a nice, if you can feel it and you
can recognize it and you canpractice self awareness, it
actually is a really key way oftrying to find your direction.
Harv (16:52):
I really like that.
And you're completely right.
I would always frame that in anegative context if, if you
hadn't pointed that out.
and, and what is, what is"theteam is dead"?
What was that idea about?
Amy Hopper (17:04):
No, that's just me saying something click baity.
Harv (17:09):
Was I not supposed to mention that one?
Okay.
Amy Hopper (17:11):
The reason I say the team is dead and, I was talking
to a dear friend of mine, who'sone of the business directors
that advises TOA, and we justagreed that particularly in the
light of COVID, people have comeback to work and there's a huge
lack of collective well being,but also there is so much
movement in the workplace.
I mean, when we talk aboutagencies and ops, digital is a,
(17:35):
it is a very fast movingindustry.
Always has been so much changeall the time.
You often go to sleep an expertand wake up a novice.
Which creates such, I want tosay, sometimes confusion and
confliction within the person.
And you're constantly in thatbattle of imposter syndrome of
(17:58):
who am I?
And am I good at this?
And cause one day you might begreat.
One day you might not cause I'vechanged it.
And the reason I say the team isdead is because.
As there is so much movement, asthere is so much change, as
teams are merging, acquisitions,changing structures.
If you, if you go in and youtreat the team in its current
(18:19):
space, I think we're going to doworkshops and we're going to do
structures.
I'm going to change culture justwithin this team, next week it
could change.
And someone goes out, someonecomes in, there's a different
hire, there's a differentstructure.
Like there's a new project.
So if you're treating it as ateam, it might not work because
(18:40):
that you're giving someone astructure and that structure is
going to change.
So we have a phrase, we say, weteach individuals how to work
with individuals.
And so when you bring it down tothe individual level of teaching
someone personal resilience, andemotional regulation and empathy
(19:01):
for oneself and one'scolleagues, just as the basis,
that person can go and work inany team, any structure, any
management level, and havingthose as their base skills will
thrive.
That's why we say the, the teamis dead because as well, we've
(19:22):
got people that are working fromhome, remotely, hybrid in
different countries, differentcultures, to treat someone just
as a, as a team group, it justdoesn't, doesn't seem to work,
but yeah, the phrase itself,obviously the team's not dead,
you've got, you've got to workall the same.
It's just, it's just click baitynonsense.
Harv (19:43):
I got you.
I see where you're going withthat.
That is super interesting.
And I imagine you work withteams of a variety of sizes as
well; is there any other kind ofthings that you see, problems
that bigger teams might haveversus smaller teams.
Do you see any patterns likethat?
Amy Hopper (20:00):
I think the, the common threads that come up are,
when you, when you see teamsthat are going through a growth,
the common thread that comes upis there is always, there's be
someone somewhere that doesn'twant to let go of the reins.
And it could be a founder, itcould be a director, but as a
team grows, perfectionism isnormally rife.
(20:21):
And this idea of I can't, Ican't let go of this, the short
term discomfort of having totrain someone and allowing that
person to make mistakes for thelongterm gain of growth.
Harv (20:35):
I've been there.
Amy Hopper (20:35):
Yeah, we've all, we've all been there.
I've made that mistake so manytimes.
So that's one that needs a lotof coaching.
And as a, as a company getsreally big...
Harv (20:45):
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (20:46):
So, we've done some projects with the likes of, like
Virgin O2.
There is always a sense of thepeople at the top don't know who
I am and they don't see me andwhereas in the smaller agencies
and smaller businesses there isa beauty of everyone knows each
(21:08):
other and therefore you're muchable to just have a sense of who
that person is, what they'reabout, rather than just a
number, which comes with its ownproblems, own set of challenges,
but yeah, in the, in the largerbusinesses, there is, it's
harder to implement changesuccessfully because there is a
distinct lack of connectionbetween the people that are
(21:32):
trying to implement that changeand also the ones creating the
change or writing what thechange is going to be and the
people that it's actually goingto affect.
And that's probably the biggest,the biggest challenge that we
see.
There's the Maurer's threeprinciples of resistance, and
that's normally the reason whychange isn't implemented
(21:53):
successfully within businessesand people don't follow it.
And it's essentially, I don'tlike it.
I don't understand it.
And I don't like you.
Harv (22:00):
Right.
Amy Hopper (22:01):
Even if the change is great and it's brilliant and
it's been understood, there's anemotional level there and a
person saying, you don't knowme, you don't know how this
impacts my job, so I'm not goingto do it.
to do it
Harv (22:16):
Totally makes sense.
Amy Hopper (22:17):
For us when we go into businesses and there will
be a set of challenges that thatbusiness is facing.
Nine times out of 10, there is apsychological, sociological
reason as to why that ishappening.
And if you can find that, andyou can work on that element,
(22:39):
generally everything else fallsinto place.
And we work on the basis thathappy, emotionally regulated
individuals create better work.
And once you realize that, andyou see that, and you see
workplaces that actually havewell being at the forefront are
21 more productive as a whole,that was a study done by
(23:02):
Deloitte in 2022.
That if you can actuallyimplement that change
successfully, just through whatmay seem like a massive ask, but
can just be some tweaks andchanges to structure and
psychology and culture, thatwhat you're trying to do as a
sort of the superficialoverarching goal of your company
(23:26):
is much, much easier to achieve.
Because you've got the people onboard to do it and everyone's
heading in the right direction.
Harv (23:33):
And, and I, I think, as your organization grows and
evolves, from, from a managementor an operations director point
of view, you're very close towhat's happening, so it's easy
to sometimes lose sight of thebig picture, perhaps.
Amy Hopper (23:48):
Absolutely.
And we've all suffered from thecurse of knowledge in which
you're just too close tosomething or it's, it's your
baby and you just can't, youcan't see the wood through the
trees.
And that's not, that's justhuman nature.
That's not anything bad.
And even when we go in andsometimes we have to say to
directors, look, you're in the"tell" stage of management.
(24:09):
You're not being collaborativewith your team.
You know, you're not being openenough.
You're not being empatheticenough.
There's no judgment there.
There's, there's no, you'redoing this wrong.
Like,
Harv (24:20):
Mm
Amy Hopper (24:20):
I think that's sometimes the fear of businesses
or people when they bring us inthat we're going to tell them
off and expose theirinadequacies.
When actually we're saying,look, you're just human.
We're all just human.
We're here to just help supportyou and guide you for something
that you might not even be ableto see that's, that's happening.
Harv (24:40):
Right.
Amy Hopper (24:41):
which is quite often the case.
I mean, that's why we haveunconscious bias training,
right?
Harv (24:45):
Mm
Amy Hopper (24:45):
That's the whole point of it.
So I think it takes quite a, anopen and self aware director and
manager, to, to see that and,and put the hands up and go, you
know what?
I'm probably not the best personto do this.
I know we've got somechallenges.
Let's, let's sort them out.
Harv (25:04):
Yeah, it's almost like that, that is it the frog in the
boiling pot of water kind ofthing.
Sometimes you just can't seewhat's happening.
So I think, you know, whetherit's with external help or not
just having the awareness thatas you're growing, you do need
to take these moments of kind ofreflection to see what was
(25:25):
working for you at a certainsize or a certain stage, versus
what would be better now.
And if you're not taking thoseopportunities, then you're,
you're kind of very reactive.
I think that's where a lot of usend up, unfortunately, is that
we, we don't take thoseopportunities to optimize, and
then we end up having to reactto the problems after they're
already taking place rather thanbeing proactive with the
(25:46):
solution.
Amy Hopper (25:47):
I think that's an excellent point.
That's a really excellent point.
We, we use an analogy about whatwe do, but also not, not just
what we do, but also things liketherapy and, and engaging in
well being in the first place isthat, although we've made huge
strides in things like mentalhealth and well being and self
care and people are, people arejumping more onto the side of
(26:09):
knowing how important it is inthe, you know, you, you can't
use a phone when the battery'snot charged.
There's still this idea, anddefinitely when I've been doing
my research, there's still thisidea, quite common that therapy
and services like what we do,what TOA provide, are a fire
(26:32):
extinguisher to use when thefire is already raging, rather
than a preventative service tomake sure the fire doesn't start
in the first place.
And, that's the key, I think.
So it's exactly what you said,the, the, the frog in the pot
analogy, exactly.
The hot, the, the water's justgetting hotter and hotter and
(26:52):
hotter.
And suddenly you realize thatyou're boiling.
But just having that, thatservice there in the, in the
first place and using it, youwon't be putting out fires,
you'll just be making sure thatthey don't start.
Harv (27:04):
There was another thing on your website that I saw that,
TOA can result in a decrease inpresenteeism.
What does that mean?
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (27:14):
A lot of people ask me this, and actually
presenteeism, it costs the UKeconomy twice as much as
absenteeism.
Harv (27:23):
Oh, wow.
Amy Hopper (27:23):
Presenteeism is where, and we've all done it,
where you almost feel the, theneed to have to go into work
even though you shouldn't be.
Harv (27:33):
right?
Amy Hopper (27:33):
it could be because you are poorly, it could be
because you are having a verybad mental health day, it could
be for a whole host of reasons.
You shouldn't be going intowork, but you do.
Harv (27:44):
Right.
Amy Hopper (27:45):
And in those situations, individuals feeling
that pressure, that aren't thengoing to be doing their best
quality work.
Because they could be incrediblypoorly, they could be in pain,
they could be not mentally ableor have the capacity to work
that day.
And so the quality of work willnot only be likely poor, or it
(28:06):
will have to be redone, or itwill have to be checked over, or
you could end up in a really badsituation where the work done
then loses a client or losesmoney, or the person coming in
that's poorly then makeseveryone else poorly because
they're spreading a cold around.
And so actually in those times,saying to someone, No, stay at
(28:26):
home or having a culture thatfacilitates self care is really,
really important because it'scosting your business money and
it's, and it's reflecting on thebottom line.
It's sort of like you could havea person, imagine you've got two
hours and you can either have anhour to yourself, recharge your
battery and then work at 100percent capacity for an hour, or
(28:49):
you can work at 50 percentcapacity for two hours.
Harv (28:53):
Right.
Amy Hopper (28:53):
Same work gets done.
I know that's a bit, that's abit of a sweeping statement and
a bit facetious, but the pointstill remains.
Harv (29:03):
Absolutely.
So Amy, in your system, oneaspect is productivity.
And I wanted to give ourlisteners some practical tips
that they could take away todayand implement for themselves as
ops people.
I sometimes felt as an opsdirector, just like firefighting
constantly with people's issues.
And on the one hand, it's like,okay, well, I'm helping unlock
(29:24):
people, from their issues andallowing them to do their work.
But then it also meant I'm notgetting things I need to get
done as efficiently.
And also for their teams,there's a lot of distractions
these days, and I'm, I'm goingto be, presenting a webinar as
well on some of thesedistractions and how those could
be overcome, but I was keen tohear some of your advice, on
(29:46):
what you advise on, how peoplecan bring a bit more focus to
their work and to their teams aswell.
Could sure.
you, could you some advice?
Amy Hopper (29:53):
Oh, do you want some of the...
Harv (29:56):
The hot tips..
Amy Hopper (29:56):
The hot, the hot tips.
Okay.
Let's think, I'd start, I mean,this isn't, this isn't a TOA,
this is something that we teach,but it's, it's not ours.
It's, I'm sure people are veryaware of setting SMART goals.
let's, Let's take the example,we said about the person that
was envious of the person thatspoke Spanish.
(30:18):
And so someone might set thegoal of, Oh, I want to speak
Spanish.
You're very, very unlikely toachieve that goal because it's
not time sensitive.
It's not measurable.
It's kind of a, Oh, I want tolearn Spanish.
So if you're going to make thatgoal SMART, we have to set a
time.
You have to make it veryspecific and you have to be in a
(30:41):
space where, let's, let's take,for example, I want to learn
basic conversational Spanish inorder to have a conversation
with someone within the next sixmonths.
That's a SMART goal because youare able to achieve it.
It's not out of the ordinary foryou to be able to achieve that.
You haven't said it's so highthat you're not going to do it,
(31:04):
but also you're able to measurewhether you've done it or not
and therefore congratulateyourself on whether you've done
it or not and make yourself feelgood and get that dopamine hit
from completing something.
Harv (31:15):
Good point
Amy Hopper (31:16):
so I'd say that's the first thing, always making
your goals SMART rather than,rather than a random goal that
you can't, that you can't thenachieve, and then you have to go
to an ops director to help youwith it.
Harv (31:29):
Okay.
Good.
Amy Hopper (31:31):
Um, the Lift List is really important, the TOA Lift
List.
So, you get a piece of, get twopieces of paper or a notebook,
and on one side you write, whatdrains you on the other side,
you write what lifts you.
Harv (31:44):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (31:45):
And this is things, and essentially it's what, what
makes you happy, what makes yousad.
But it's much more, when we doit, we talk about, okay, how
does that make you feel withinyour body when something truly
lifts you?
And Mm-Hmm.
think of it like a, like a bankaccount, like what's paying into
that bank account.
And what spending?
So people, on the lift list,have written things like
(32:05):
cooking, yoga, spending timewith my family, spending time
with a pet, gardening, etcetera, et cetera.
On the drain list, there mightbe, let's, let's think about the
emails that should have beenlike a text message or a meeting
that should have been an email.
yeah.
Having, meetings that youshouldn't have been in because
(32:25):
like you, you sat there for anhour and you didn't contribute
anything, et cetera, et cetera.
You write down these things.
Then when you come to your diaryand actually putting those,
those clients in, those tasksin, we have what we call the TOA
traffic light system.
And so when you have a clientthat is going to drain you and
(32:48):
you know, they're going to, andyou know, the ones.
Harv (32:49):
Mm hmm.
Absolutely.
Amy Hopper (32:51):
You put them in red.
Harv (32:52):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (32:53):
And when you have a client that's going to lift you
or, or a situation that's goingto lift you.
Like I love pitching.
So if I pitch in that, thatpitch is going to be green.
Harv (33:02):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (33:03):
And then your amber is, Oh, I don't really know.
It could go either way.
Harv (33:07):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (33:08):
And when you then look at that traffic light
system, you're able toemotionally regulate yourself
and say, okay, well, I've got aload of red on here.
I've got, I need to sandwichthis between green.
So then you go to your liftlist, you see what makes you
happy, and you make sure thatyou've got, if you've got a load
of red, that you've got at leasta big chunk of green before and
(33:29):
after.
So that your day doesn't startand you're just going down,
downhill,
Harv (33:35):
Yeah.
Amy Hopper (33:36):
you're keeping yourself emotionally regulated.
And that for me and my trafficlight system, I don't have any
red after 2pm.
Harv (33:42):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (33:43):
I have that sort of afternoon slump and I, unless
it's an emergency, unless it'san emergency and something's
come in, you just, you justcan't help it.
But then I would make sure thatI've got some green afterwards.
Harv (33:57):
I like that.
Amy Hopper (33:58):
It's, it's, I don't know why my Alexa keeps going.
Stupid, stupid thing.
I mean, sorry, lovely thing.
I don't like calling my Alexastupid just for when the robots
take over, they'll remember thatI was polite.
Harv (34:16):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Amy Hopper (34:18):
But yeah, going back to the point when you're talking
about emotional regulation andmaking sure that your battery
stays a little bit more fullthroughout the day, it's about
making sure you haven't got aload of red, you sandwich it
between the green and thatyou're really, truly
understanding what makes youhappy because some people don't
know and sometimes you're so,sometimes you are so, what's the
(34:41):
word?
Sometimes we can be so paralyzedthrough choice.
Particularly if we're having abusy day and if it's a busy ops
day, you just got so much stuffgoing on.
Even if you had 10 minutes tospare, the mental labor required
to choose something to lift youor think of what to do, you
actually sometimes don't havethe mental capacity to do that.
(35:02):
So that's why it's good to havethe lift list and go, Oh, okay,
I've got 10 minutes.
I can do that.
I fancy going for a walk.
I'll just go for a walk, and thedecision is kind of made for
you.
You've already pre created thelist.
It's also really good formanagers to understand that
every single person's lift listis different.
Harv (35:18):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Amy Hopper (35:19):
So it's no good in terms of wellbeing and you might
have the best of intention.
And saying, Oh, well, we'regoing to bring a yoga instructor
in and we're going to do yoga onthe, on the rooftop and
everyone's going to feel great.
The amount of drain lists I'veseen with yoga at the top, so
you can't have a one size fitsall.
Harv (35:39):
Right.
Amy Hopper (35:39):
And this is another reason why we say the team is
dead.
Cause we let, we get everyone todo their individual lift lists
and drain list in their firstworkshop, no matter what.
No matter what they're doingwith us, they always do that
first workshop first thing.
Because we want individuals tobe able to know themselves and
to practice that self awareness,practice that emotional
(35:59):
regulation so they're able tocommunicate better and set
better boundaries and interactwith well being activities that
will lift them, not drain them.
Harv (36:09):
Amazing.
I, I like there's multiplelayers to this.
First there's the non work stuffthere as well, that's on the
lift list, right?
And that could be good or bad.
And then you can also put tasksthere as well that make you feel
good or, or, or not so good.
And then, from what I understoodis that you put people there as
(36:30):
well.
Amy Hopper (36:31):
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that's another
workshop, but we, that's,that's, that's another reason
why sociology comes in as well,because I say when I do work,
particularly with C suite andthey might have a huge amount of
pressure on their shoulders.
And they might be thinkingabout, they might be going
through VC funding.
They might be starting a newbusiness.
They might be merging withanother or acquiring, or there,
(36:54):
there is a huge amount ofpressure and you could have the
best business plan that's everbeen written in the history of
man.
But if you're spending your timeexclusively with people that
make you feel three out of 10,that don't believe in you, that
don't say, yeah, you can do it,that are constantly criticizing
(37:14):
you or, or your abilities.
There is no way in hell you'regoing to be able to implement
that business plan successfully.
It's almost pointless.
So that's why we think about,when you think about sociology,
you think about the behaviors ofyour social groups and the wider
social culture.
You Need to be thinking how thathas an influence on you as an
(37:34):
individual and on your business,because it has a massive,
massive impact.
Huge impact.
And, and the impact on yourteam.
Harv (37:45):
Super, super good advice.
So, Can you tell us a bit aboutthe kind of work that you end up
doing with some of your agencycustomers.
Amy Hopper (37:53):
For sure.
So we tend to have three typesof clients that come to us.
And there is the first type ofclient, and then we'll have a
very specific goal.
Harv (38:04):
hmm.
Amy Hopper (38:04):
So for example, a couple of months ago, Adobe came
to us and said, we've got thiswomen's leadership program.
We want you to create a systemof workshops on confidence and
imposter syndrome to add to thatleadership program to be
delivered over the next year.
Like really very specific, cleargoal.
We know what we want.
This is it.
And we go absolutely no problem.
(38:25):
Let's go.
Harv (38:26):
Okay.
Okay.
Amy Hopper (38:27):
Then there'll be, um, the second type of client.
And that'd be, that's probablynormally our our main type of
client where they're coming tous and saying, we know we're
having challenges, our team haveexpressed this, we think that
this may be it, but we don't, wedon't really know, but it's
causing a lot of, a lot ofissues and that's when we'll go
in and we'll do a discoveryphase and it could be that we
(38:50):
do, surveys, one to oneinterviews, actually looking at
the nitty gritty of what, what'sgoing on.
Harv (38:58):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (38:58):
Finding out what those core, those key pinpoints
are.
Going back to the client andsaying, okay, this is what, this
is what we found out from yourteam which is all of course
anonymous, and gives them a muchbetter idea of what, what's
actually going on, which theymight not have known before.
Then we create a system ofworkshops, training, coaching,
(39:19):
maybe one to one mentoring,consultancy and, and structural
cultural change to, to help getthem on their way.
And then there is the thirdclient that come to us and they
say, we need a keynote to kickeveryone up the ass.
Harv (39:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
Amy Hopper (39:38):
And we go, you come to the right place.
Harv (39:40):
Mm hmm.
Okay.
Amy Hopper (39:43):
And that's normally for, people were having large
conferences or they're havingbig, big sort of team corporate
days with hundreds of people.
And we'll go and do either akeynote or a mini workshop.
And, and that'll be just bam,bam, bam.
Here are some things that youcan take away and implement from
day one.
Harv (40:02):
Amazing.
Very cool.
Very cool.
So we're coming towards the end
Amy Hopper (40:07):
No.
Harv (40:07):
of our, our session and I guess before we go, just a
moment to ask you if there's anyother advice you would give to
an ops director or growingagency, I'm putting you on the
spot and if there's nothing youwant to say, I will cut out this
question, but just any otheradvice, you know, we talked
about productivity and the liftlist, the traffic light system
(40:29):
and things like that.
Is, is there anything else youwould say, you know, whether
it's about collaboration oranything else you do?
Amy Hopper (40:36):
I'd say don't wait until the fire has started.
Harv (40:41):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hopper (40:42):
stop the fire from happening.
And in terms of wanting to bebetter, not only as a, as an
individual, but grow as anindividual and not just be
calmer and more self aware inyourself, but also a better team
member, a more empatheticleader.
Harv (40:59):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hopper (41:00):
A person that is able to, to take life and work
challenges and really remainresilient.
Harv (41:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hopper (41:12):
That investing in wellbeing and therapy is a huge
part of that and certainly hasbeen a huge part of, of me and
my personal growth.
Harv (41:21):
That is such an amazing, lovely note to end on.
I really, really like that.
Thank you.
Amy Hopper (41:26):
You're welcome.
Harv (41:27):
So if people wanna learn more about you and TOA, where do
they find more information?
Amy Hopper (41:32):
Oh, we can go to the website, toagroup.co.uk, or
please do connect with me onLinkedIn.
I absolutely adore talking topeople on LinkedIn and the
messages that we receive bothfrom happy clients and people
wanting to learn more.
So that would be fantastic.
Harv (41:49):
Excellent.
We'll do that.
Amy, thank you so much for beinghere today.
Amy Hopper (41:53):
It's been a pleasure.
Harv (41:55):
So, what did you think?
I find Amy's story incrediblyinspiring, and a lot of what she
says resonates.
As Ops folks, we can get veryinto tracking the metrics and
designing the processes, but Ido think it's important for us
to remember that humans aren'tmachines, and not only can we
not treat each other as if weare, but we can have more fun,
be more productive, and get moreout of each other, if we create
(42:17):
workplaces where we address theless tangible elements like
mental health and psychology.
And personally, I realized Icould definitely benefit from
creating a lift list, which wascreating a list of things I
enjoy doing or enjoy working on,and then scheduling my day ahead
with the traffic light system inmind, which meant sandwiching
those difficult people,conversations or tasks between
(42:40):
things that make me feel happyand energized.
I hope you'll be able to go awayand reflect on some of this as
well and see how it applies toyour workplace and take some
small steps to make a positivechange.
Now, before I go, I only haveone request for you.
Please share this podcast with afriend or colleague in the
agency space that wouldappreciate it.
I'm going to leave it there.
(43:01):
That's your cue.
Share the episode.
Thanks very much.
Thanks for listening to The Handbook
(00:01):
Operations Podcast.
This podcast is brought to youby Scoro.
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I did not come up with thatlabel, but yeah it's easy for
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(00:22):
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(00:43):
I left my job as an in house opsdirector to work for Scoro
because I was so impressed.
Sign up for a free trial atscoro.com or if you arrange a
demo call, tell them Harv sentyou.
Now let's get to the episode.
(01:28):
Hey all, welcome back to thepodcast.
So a confession to start, I havea bad habit of letting work, and
particularly my sense ofachievement and productivity,
influence how I feel aboutmyself at the end of each day.
I mean, I probably got into opsbecause I'm obsessed with
getting things done and wantingthings to be efficient, but that
can have a negative influence onmy mental health.
(01:48):
If I didn't get everything donethat I wanted to, even if those
expectations were unreasonable,the lingering guilt and anxiety
can ruin my evening.
Actually, that story reminds mea bit of a TV series some of you
may have seen called Severance.
When the employees in the seriesstep into their office, they
can't remember anything abouttheir personal lives, and when
they leave work, they can'tremember anything about their
(02:10):
work lives.
For better or worse, that's justnot how real life works.
We don't get a clean dividebetween who we are at work and
who we are at home.
What's happening in our personallives, in our relationships, how
well we slept, and our health,all of that can influence how we
get on with work on a given dayand like my story above, what
happens at work can easilyinfluence how we feel and behave
(02:32):
at home.
So what we're going to betalking about today is emotional
regulation, the psychology ofwork, why we act the way we do,
and how we, as agency leaders,can work towards creating a
culture that gets the best outof people by looking after their
well being.
We'll also be sharing some tipsand tricks on how you can plan
(02:53):
your day in a way that energizesyou rather than drains you.
Our guest today is Amy Hopper.
She's a former agency owner andnow founder of business
consultancy, the TOA Group.
Amy is a sociologist andentrepreneur.
She founded her first businessat 25.
She's overcome what you mightcall extreme personal
challenges.
I'm going to let her tell youher story in her own words in a
(03:15):
few minutes, but througheverything she's been through,
Amy's created a system thathelps individuals and teams
overcome their challenges andbecome more focused, time
efficient, engaged, andproductive.
That sounds like something wecould all learn and benefit
from, doesn't it?
So let's get into theconversation.
Amy, welcome to the show.
(03:35):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Amy Hopper (03:36):
It is a pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Harv (03:39):
There's so much you've done, so much you've
accomplished and so much you'veovercome.
Can you tell us your story,
Amy Hopper (03:45):
Oh gosh.
Quickly?
Harv (03:47):
Take as much time as you need.
Amy Hopper (03:49):
I've actually written some of it down because
I feel like if I don't, if Idon't, then I'll uh,
Harv (03:53):
You'll
Amy Hopper (03:54):
I'll miss details.
Okay.
So.
Yeah, it's been, it's been acolorful decade for sure, but,
essentially went to uni, studiedsociology, did my final thesis
in the sociology of work andalienation in the workplace,
then went straight into work andrealized that it was not for me.
But the nine to five classicstructure and hierarchical
(04:16):
system, I just thought, yeah,that's, that's not, I want to do
my own thing.
So I started my own agency at25.
It was a PPC search agency in,in the glory days, as we like to
call it, you know, when you usedto have to write your own code
in Excel,
Harv (04:31):
Right
Amy Hopper (04:32):
like, like, ah, how beautiful was that?
And, Sadly, a year later, I wasinvolved in a dangerous car
accident.
A woman came into our lane, hitme head on, ended up with
permanent spine damage.
And
Harv (04:48):
Oh no.
Amy Hopper (04:48):
yeah, just having to, you know, having a year old
business, what on earth am Igoing to do?
And, and running the business,pretty much like lying on my
back on the sofa.
And I think one year, I thinkeight, eight spinal procedures
just, just in the course of theyear, but managed to grow that
business to a top 30 Googlepartner agency, we won Drum
(05:12):
awards, won the Amazon businessaward and the business was doing
really beautifully.
Really
Harv (05:17):
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (05:18):
but got to a stage, I'm still undergoing so many
procedures, sometimes having touse a wheelchair and it got to
the point where the doctor said,yeah, you're going to need a
fusion.
Harv (05:29):
Okay.
Okay
Amy Hopper (05:29):
A titanium fusion at 31.
Harv (05:33):
Wow.
Amy Hopper (05:33):
In the December, in the January, we went into
lockdown.
Harv (05:38):
Mm.
Amy Hopper (05:39):
and, and then very, very sadly in, in the first
lockdown, I, I was widowed.
I was, I lost my, my husband andmy business partner and just,
Harv (05:47):
Oh my gosh.
Amy Hopper (05:48):
yeah, just being in this position of just, you know,
I was still using a wheelchair,wasn't able to, I'd lost my
body, lost my best friend, myhusband, and, and now thinking
about running a business,running an agency, which was
doing really well, when we wentand thinking, what on earth am I
(06:09):
going to do?
Harv (06:10):
Right.
Amy Hopper (06:10):
And, And there is a beautiful, there's quite a
beauty actually in being inthat, in that position of
surrender, full surrender and,your only way is up because
you're, you're just, you're onthe floor and cause it teaches
you the, it teaches you thebeauty of what's important.
Harv (06:28):
Right.
Amy Hopper (06:28):
What truly matters and what true value is.
Harv (06:31):
Mm
Amy Hopper (06:31):
so sold my business.
Sold my agency.
Harv (06:33):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (06:35):
Rebuilt my body, went, went traveling around
Europe solo, went solo hiking600 kilometers around Europe.
Harv (06:43):
Wow.
Amy Hopper (06:44):
Got to the position, obviously invested a huge amount
in therapy, self care, Mm.
studying psychology and, and,you know, training and building
my body and my mind back up to aplace where I was healthy.
Harv (06:57):
Mm
Amy Hopper (06:58):
And then people started to say to me, how did
you do it?
How are you, how are you here?
Harv (07:05):
hmm.
Amy Hopper (07:05):
Not only are you, but also smiling and, and able
to function and thrive.
And there was that British thingof instantly saying, Oh, well,
you know, you just put one footin front of the other
Harv (07:21):
Mm hmm.
Amy Hopper (07:22):
and realizing in myself that that wasn't true at
all, that I'd actually gone backto my, my training as a
sociologist and I'd, I'd goneback to my psychology, and I had
read every single self helpguide in the library and I'd
done the yoga ashrams and I'dtaken the supplements and I'd
Harv (07:41):
Right.
Amy Hopper (07:43):
gone from everything from sort of intensive trauma
EMDR therapy, all the waythrough to sort of mind, body
yoga experience and everythingin between, plus business
coaching, plus a bit of militarytraining and realized I created
a system,
Harv (07:56):
Wow.
Amy Hopper (07:56):
Not only what worked for me, but what worked within
business and what worked withinorganizations and worked for
individuals and teams.
And that's the system the, theTOA is based on today.
And I thought I need, this isn'tjust for me, I need to show
other people this.
They don't have to go throughwhat I went through in order to
achieve the same wisdom and thesame results.
Harv (08:18):
That is incredible.
Amy Hopper (08:19):
Thank you.
That, that, that, that covers,that covers.
Harv (08:26):
That, that is, that is intense.
You know, well done.
And that's just superinspirational.
And also that epiphany as well,you know, that, that's not easy
to come by or to say, otherpeople could learn from this or,
or benefit from some of thethings that you've learned.
So that's, that's, that'samazing.
(08:47):
So that's where you started TOAand that was a couple of years
ago.
Amy Hopper (08:51):
Yeah, so T-O-A, some people call it TOA, I don't, I
don't mind, I think there'showever, however people want to
pronounce it.
Yeah, that started in January2023.
Harv (09:00):
Mm.
Amy Hopper (09:00):
So, we started off as, as, well, although I hate
the word wellbeing and that'sanother story, but I started off
as a wellbeing consultancy forcorporates, for agencies, and
for, for businesses instressful, high stress
environment, and it's turnedinto a performance consultancy.
Harv (09:18):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (09:18):
That's, that's very much the way that, that the
direction the clients wanted totake it in.
And so that's what we did tofacilitate the need.
Harv (09:26):
Right.
So, I think I know what asociologist does, but the
sociology of work, you know, Imentioned this in the intro
about yourself.
What does that mean?
What is the sociology of work?
Amy Hopper (09:38):
Essentially in sociology, what you're studying
is, is you're studyingrelationships and structures.
Harv (09:44):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (09:44):
And sociology in itself is actually a subject
that is a, it's a rich tapestrywith threads from many different
subjects.
So you've got history in there,cultural studies, you've got
neuroscience, psychology,philosophy, anthropology, and
everything in between.
But essentially how sociologyworks, you, you are studying
(10:06):
everything from the micro levelin terms of this is an
individual, why is an individualmaking these decisions as part
of their personal makeup withinsociety, all the way up to the
macro of what are sociologicalstructures and cultures and what
are the behaviors that governwhy certain groups do things
(10:27):
both in the present andhistorically.
Harv (10:30):
Right.
Amy Hopper (10:30):
So in In terms of a company and in terms of a
business, it's really, reallyimportant actually to look at it
sociologically andpsychologically, rather than
simply applying, you know, liketraditional business coaching or
just economics, because peoplearen't numbers, people aren't,
(10:51):
they, they, and there'll be awhole host of reasons, both
within the business and outsideof the business, why your team,
individuals within your team,act the certain way that they
do.
And how we can help them tosupport them to make sure that
they are thriving within allenvironments.
Harv (11:08):
Right.
Okay.
So, you do some of your ownresearch.
Is that kind of the, thesociologist background and is
that separate to your work or,or has that kind of become all
part of TOA now as well?
Amy Hopper (11:23):
It's all part of TOA now.
I started it just as a bit offun.
Harv (11:27):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (11:28):
Because I have a, apparently a strange definition
of what I consider fun.
Let's do a sociological study,why not?
Harv (11:34):
That's amazing.
Amy Hopper (11:35):
The reason I started it is because You know, we
didn't want to just want to godown the route of, oh, well,
we're qualified or this person'sgot an MBA or this director's
got an MBA.
I've got a sociology degree,blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, we know what we'redoing.
Harv (11:49):
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (11:49):
It's, it's about, no, we are here as a service.
It's our job to service ourcustomers.
So let's find out what'shappening with our customers.
So for example, in the last bitof research, we took a number
of, well, 40 software houses andagencies within Europe.
So it was within the UK,Romania, Hungary, and Poland.
(12:12):
And we really got to the nittygritty through, through, it was
interview face to face interviewwith directors and owners of
those businesses.
You know, what was actuallyhappening within the agency,
within the software house, whereare the sticking points?
What is the world of work afterCOVID like?
What are the communicationchallenges that are coming up?
(12:33):
How is hybrid work versus remotework and just very, very, well,
what turned into essentiallywhat was essentially a chat
turned into a much largerresearch study where some very
key themes came throughout nomatter what the country, no
matter what the size of thebusiness.
(12:54):
And that's when we started doingmore and more of the research
because it allows us to see thechallenges that our clients are
actually having, allows us tokeep our ear to the ground.
And therefore the workshops thatwe produce and the content that
we produce is actually solvingthose challenges rather than
just us doing things on a whimand thinking, oh, it might get
(13:16):
picked up.
Harv (13:18):
Much more grounded in what people are talking about or
experiencing.
There's, there was a couple of,of kind of studies that you had
mentioned.
There, there was this, you'dmentioned something to me about
The Happiness Index, first ofall, and there was something
else about the, something aboutthe team is dead.
So maybe you can tell us aboutthose.
Amy Hopper (13:36):
I've got to be, I've got to be careful about what I
quote you in for in other chats.
Yeah.
Okay.
So happiness index.
So the lovely Matt, co founderof Happiness Index and I, we
started chatting just because ofcourse we work in similar spaces
and got on.
So, so well, got on like a houseon fire.
And then in one of our chats,we, we've discussed everything
(13:59):
and everything from neuroscienceall the, all the way through to,
I don't know what, what plantswe're planting in the garden,
but that came up was, this ideaof jealousy and envy within the
workplace.
And The Happiness Index is agreat company, they do a lot of
research, into what's happeningin teams and making sure that
you can create a happierworkplace because happy people
create better work.
(14:20):
And we realized that actually noone talks about jealousy.
No one talks about envy withinthe workplace.
And of course, a lot of peoplethink that they're intertwined
and that they're the same thingwhen they're actually quite
separate and that when you thinkabout the idea of toxic
workplace culture and cliques...
Harv (14:40):
mm.
Amy Hopper (14:40):
And alienation within the workplace, that
actually it's grounded injealousy and it's grounded in
these emotions, which, which areperceived as negative and people
hide because they're ashamed ofthem.
Harv (14:52):
Right.
Amy Hopper (14:53):
And so we ended up doing a couple of little surveys
on LinkedIn and a bit ofresearch into, one, has anyone
experienced someone beingjealous towards them and
therefore being alienated in theworkplace?
Harv (15:07):
Right.
Amy Hopper (15:07):
And, two, was anyone going to admit that they've been
jealous of someone else and howit impacted?
Harv (15:14):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (15:14):
And it was very, very interesting, the results
that came through.
Obviously you can imagine mostpeople have experienced it at
some point in their career, yetit's just not talked about.
So we, then we did a webinar,about it and got lots of people
involved.
Cause I think it's somethingthat really needs a, a lot more
(15:34):
focus
Harv (15:36):
Mm.
Amy Hopper (15:36):
also not as much shame around it for people to
just hold their hands up andgone.
Yeah, I've done that, but let'swork about how we can correct it
and make sure it doesn't have anegative impact in the
workplace.
Harv (15:48):
Right.
We do kind of try to, deny thosenegative emotions, don't we?
Like try to distance ourselvesfrom them.
and, and you're right, there isshame there when, when you think
about those kinds of things.
Amy Hopper (15:59):
For sure.
And you've actually said areally good point there.
You said the word negative,negative emotion.
Harv (16:03):
Mm.
Mm.
Amy Hopper (16:04):
I mean, a big thing that we try and do in TOA is
teach people that there is nosuch thing as a negative
emotion, that there is onlyemotion.
Harv (16:12):
Good point.
Amy Hopper (16:12):
And the how one reacts to it, the reaction is
negative and or positive.
So in terms of as if you'reenvious of someone that actually
envy is one of those emotionsthat on the surface, someone may
say, Oh, that's a negativeemotion, but actually it's your
driver and your direction.
It could be, Oh, I'm envious ofthis person, they can speak
(16:34):
Spanish.
Harv (16:35):
Yeah.
Amy Hopper (16:36):
I therefore, it could be your driver to, to
learn how to speak Spanish andtake Spanish lessons.
Harv (16:41):
Right.
Amy Hopper (16:42):
So it's quite a nice, if you can feel it and you
can recognize it and you canpractice self awareness, it
actually is a really key way oftrying to find your direction.
Harv (16:52):
I really like that.
And you're completely right.
I would always frame that in anegative context if, if you
hadn't pointed that out.
and, and what is, what is"theteam is dead"?
What was that idea about?
Amy Hopper (17:04):
No, that's just me saying something click baity.
Harv (17:09):
Was I not supposed to mention that one?
Okay.
Amy Hopper (17:11):
The reason I say the team is dead and, I was talking
to a dear friend of mine, who'sone of the business directors
that advises TOA, and we justagreed that particularly in the
light of COVID, people have comeback to work and there's a huge
lack of collective well being,but also there is so much
movement in the workplace.
I mean, when we talk aboutagencies and ops, digital is a,
(17:35):
it is a very fast movingindustry.
Always has been so much changeall the time.
You often go to sleep an expertand wake up a novice.
Which creates such, I want tosay, sometimes confusion and
confliction within the person.
And you're constantly in thatbattle of imposter syndrome of
(17:58):
who am I?
And am I good at this?
And cause one day you might begreat.
One day you might not cause I'vechanged it.
And the reason I say the team isdead is because.
As there is so much movement, asthere is so much change, as
teams are merging, acquisitions,changing structures.
If you, if you go in and youtreat the team in its current
(18:19):
space, I think we're going to doworkshops and we're going to do
structures.
I'm going to change culture justwithin this team, next week it
could change.
And someone goes out, someonecomes in, there's a different
hire, there's a differentstructure.
Like there's a new project.
So if you're treating it as ateam, it might not work because
(18:40):
that you're giving someone astructure and that structure is
going to change.
So we have a phrase, we say, weteach individuals how to work
with individuals.
And so when you bring it down tothe individual level of teaching
someone personal resilience, andemotional regulation and empathy
(19:01):
for oneself and one'scolleagues, just as the basis,
that person can go and work inany team, any structure, any
management level, and havingthose as their base skills will
thrive.
That's why we say the, the teamis dead because as well, we've
(19:22):
got people that are working fromhome, remotely, hybrid in
different countries, differentcultures, to treat someone just
as a, as a team group, it justdoesn't, doesn't seem to work,
but yeah, the phrase itself,obviously the team's not dead,
you've got, you've got to workall the same.
It's just, it's just click baitynonsense.
Harv (19:43):
I got you.
I see where you're going withthat.
That is super interesting.
And I imagine you work withteams of a variety of sizes as
well; is there any other kind ofthings that you see, problems
that bigger teams might haveversus smaller teams.
Do you see any patterns likethat?
Amy Hopper (20:00):
I think the, the common threads that come up are,
when you, when you see teamsthat are going through a growth,
the common thread that comes upis there is always, there's be
someone somewhere that doesn'twant to let go of the reins.
And it could be a founder, itcould be a director, but as a
team grows, perfectionism isnormally rife.
(20:21):
And this idea of I can't, Ican't let go of this, the short
term discomfort of having totrain someone and allowing that
person to make mistakes for thelongterm gain of growth.
Harv (20:35):
I've been there.
Amy Hopper (20:35):
Yeah, we've all, we've all been there.
I've made that mistake so manytimes.
So that's one that needs a lotof coaching.
And as a, as a company getsreally big...
Harv (20:45):
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (20:46):
So, we've done some projects with the likes of, like
Virgin O2.
There is always a sense of thepeople at the top don't know who
I am and they don't see me andwhereas in the smaller agencies
and smaller businesses there isa beauty of everyone knows each
(21:08):
other and therefore you're muchable to just have a sense of who
that person is, what they'reabout, rather than just a
number, which comes with its ownproblems, own set of challenges,
but yeah, in the, in the largerbusinesses, there is, it's
harder to implement changesuccessfully because there is a
distinct lack of connectionbetween the people that are
(21:32):
trying to implement that changeand also the ones creating the
change or writing what thechange is going to be and the
people that it's actually goingto affect.
And that's probably the biggest,the biggest challenge that we
see.
There's the Maurer's threeprinciples of resistance, and
that's normally the reason whychange isn't implemented
(21:53):
successfully within businessesand people don't follow it.
And it's essentially, I don'tlike it.
I don't understand it.
And I don't like you.
Harv (22:00):
Right.
Amy Hopper (22:01):
Even if the change is great and it's brilliant and
it's been understood, there's anemotional level there and a
person saying, you don't knowme, you don't know how this
impacts my job, so I'm not goingto do it.
to do it
Harv (22:16):
Totally makes sense.
Amy Hopper (22:17):
For us when we go into businesses and there will
be a set of challenges that thatbusiness is facing.
Nine times out of 10, there is apsychological, sociological
reason as to why that ishappening.
And if you can find that, andyou can work on that element,
(22:39):
generally everything else fallsinto place.
And we work on the basis thathappy, emotionally regulated
individuals create better work.
And once you realize that, andyou see that, and you see
workplaces that actually havewell being at the forefront are
21 more productive as a whole,that was a study done by
(23:02):
Deloitte in 2022.
That if you can actuallyimplement that change
successfully, just through whatmay seem like a massive ask, but
can just be some tweaks andchanges to structure and
psychology and culture, thatwhat you're trying to do as a
sort of the superficialoverarching goal of your company
(23:26):
is much, much easier to achieve.
Because you've got the people onboard to do it and everyone's
heading in the right direction.
Harv (23:33):
And, and I, I think, as your organization grows and
evolves, from, from a managementor an operations director point
of view, you're very close towhat's happening, so it's easy
to sometimes lose sight of thebig picture, perhaps.
Amy Hopper (23:48):
Absolutely.
And we've all suffered from thecurse of knowledge in which
you're just too close tosomething or it's, it's your
baby and you just can't, youcan't see the wood through the
trees.
And that's not, that's justhuman nature.
That's not anything bad.
And even when we go in andsometimes we have to say to
directors, look, you're in the"tell" stage of management.
(24:09):
You're not being collaborativewith your team.
You know, you're not being openenough.
You're not being empatheticenough.
There's no judgment there.
There's, there's no, you'redoing this wrong.
Like,
Harv (24:20):
Mm
Amy Hopper (24:20):
I think that's sometimes the fear of businesses
or people when they bring us inthat we're going to tell them
off and expose theirinadequacies.
When actually we're saying,look, you're just human.
We're all just human.
We're here to just help supportyou and guide you for something
that you might not even be ableto see that's, that's happening.
Harv (24:40):
Right.
Amy Hopper (24:41):
which is quite often the case.
I mean, that's why we haveunconscious bias training,
right?
Harv (24:45):
Mm
Amy Hopper (24:45):
That's the whole point of it.
So I think it takes quite a, anopen and self aware director and
manager, to, to see that and,and put the hands up and go, you
know what?
I'm probably not the best personto do this.
I know we've got somechallenges.
Let's, let's sort them out.
Harv (25:04):
Yeah, it's almost like that, that is it the frog in the
boiling pot of water kind ofthing.
Sometimes you just can't seewhat's happening.
So I think, you know, whetherit's with external help or not
just having the awareness thatas you're growing, you do need
to take these moments of kind ofreflection to see what was
(25:25):
working for you at a certainsize or a certain stage, versus
what would be better now.
And if you're not taking thoseopportunities, then you're,
you're kind of very reactive.
I think that's where a lot of usend up, unfortunately, is that
we, we don't take thoseopportunities to optimize, and
then we end up having to reactto the problems after they're
already taking place rather thanbeing proactive with the
(25:46):
solution.
Amy Hopper (25:47):
I think that's an excellent point.
That's a really excellent point.
We, we use an analogy about whatwe do, but also not, not just
what we do, but also things liketherapy and, and engaging in
well being in the first place isthat, although we've made huge
strides in things like mentalhealth and well being and self
care and people are, people arejumping more onto the side of
(26:09):
knowing how important it is inthe, you know, you, you can't
use a phone when the battery'snot charged.
There's still this idea, anddefinitely when I've been doing
my research, there's still thisidea, quite common that therapy
and services like what we do,what TOA provide, are a fire
(26:32):
extinguisher to use when thefire is already raging, rather
than a preventative service tomake sure the fire doesn't start
in the first place.
And, that's the key, I think.
So it's exactly what you said,the, the, the frog in the pot
analogy, exactly.
The hot, the, the water's justgetting hotter and hotter and
(26:52):
hotter.
And suddenly you realize thatyou're boiling.
But just having that, thatservice there in the, in the
first place and using it, youwon't be putting out fires,
you'll just be making sure thatthey don't start.
Harv (27:04):
There was another thing on your website that I saw that,
TOA can result in a decrease inpresenteeism.
What does that mean?
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (27:14):
A lot of people ask me this, and actually
presenteeism, it costs the UKeconomy twice as much as
absenteeism.
Harv (27:23):
Oh, wow.
Amy Hopper (27:23):
Presenteeism is where, and we've all done it,
where you almost feel the, theneed to have to go into work
even though you shouldn't be.
Harv (27:33):
right?
Amy Hopper (27:33):
it could be because you are poorly, it could be
because you are having a verybad mental health day, it could
be for a whole host of reasons.
You shouldn't be going intowork, but you do.
Harv (27:44):
Right.
Amy Hopper (27:45):
And in those situations, individuals feeling
that pressure, that aren't thengoing to be doing their best
quality work.
Because they could be incrediblypoorly, they could be in pain,
they could be not mentally ableor have the capacity to work
that day.
And so the quality of work willnot only be likely poor, or it
(28:06):
will have to be redone, or itwill have to be checked over, or
you could end up in a really badsituation where the work done
then loses a client or losesmoney, or the person coming in
that's poorly then makeseveryone else poorly because
they're spreading a cold around.
And so actually in those times,saying to someone, No, stay at
(28:26):
home or having a culture thatfacilitates self care is really,
really important because it'scosting your business money and
it's, and it's reflecting on thebottom line.
It's sort of like you could havea person, imagine you've got two
hours and you can either have anhour to yourself, recharge your
battery and then work at 100percent capacity for an hour, or
(28:49):
you can work at 50 percentcapacity for two hours.
Harv (28:53):
Right.
Amy Hopper (28:53):
Same work gets done.
I know that's a bit, that's abit of a sweeping statement and
a bit facetious, but the pointstill remains.
Harv (29:03):
Absolutely.
So Amy, in your system, oneaspect is productivity.
And I wanted to give ourlisteners some practical tips
that they could take away todayand implement for themselves as
ops people.
I sometimes felt as an opsdirector, just like firefighting
constantly with people's issues.
And on the one hand, it's like,okay, well, I'm helping unlock
(29:24):
people, from their issues andallowing them to do their work.
But then it also meant I'm notgetting things I need to get
done as efficiently.
And also for their teams,there's a lot of distractions
these days, and I'm, I'm goingto be, presenting a webinar as
well on some of thesedistractions and how those could
be overcome, but I was keen tohear some of your advice, on
(29:46):
what you advise on, how peoplecan bring a bit more focus to
their work and to their teams aswell.
Could sure.
you, could you some advice?
Amy Hopper (29:53):
Oh, do you want some of the...
Harv (29:56):
The hot tips..
Amy Hopper (29:56):
The hot, the hot tips.
Okay.
Let's think, I'd start, I mean,this isn't, this isn't a TOA,
this is something that we teach,but it's, it's not ours.
It's, I'm sure people are veryaware of setting SMART goals.
let's, Let's take the example,we said about the person that
was envious of the person thatspoke Spanish.
(30:18):
And so someone might set thegoal of, Oh, I want to speak
Spanish.
You're very, very unlikely toachieve that goal because it's
not time sensitive.
It's not measurable.
It's kind of a, Oh, I want tolearn Spanish.
So if you're going to make thatgoal SMART, we have to set a
time.
You have to make it veryspecific and you have to be in a
(30:41):
space where, let's, let's take,for example, I want to learn
basic conversational Spanish inorder to have a conversation
with someone within the next sixmonths.
That's a SMART goal because youare able to achieve it.
It's not out of the ordinary foryou to be able to achieve that.
You haven't said it's so highthat you're not going to do it,
(31:04):
but also you're able to measurewhether you've done it or not
and therefore congratulateyourself on whether you've done
it or not and make yourself feelgood and get that dopamine hit
from completing something.
Harv (31:15):
Good point
Amy Hopper (31:16):
so I'd say that's the first thing, always making
your goals SMART rather than,rather than a random goal that
you can't, that you can't thenachieve, and then you have to go
to an ops director to help youwith it.
Harv (31:29):
Okay.
Good.
Amy Hopper (31:31):
Um, the Lift List is really important, the TOA Lift
List.
So, you get a piece of, get twopieces of paper or a notebook,
and on one side you write, whatdrains you on the other side,
you write what lifts you.
Harv (31:44):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (31:45):
And this is things, and essentially it's what, what
makes you happy, what makes yousad.
But it's much more, when we doit, we talk about, okay, how
does that make you feel withinyour body when something truly
lifts you?
And Mm-Hmm.
think of it like a, like a bankaccount, like what's paying into
that bank account.
And what spending?
So people, on the lift list,have written things like
(32:05):
cooking, yoga, spending timewith my family, spending time
with a pet, gardening, etcetera, et cetera.
On the drain list, there mightbe, let's, let's think about the
emails that should have beenlike a text message or a meeting
that should have been an email.
yeah.
Having, meetings that youshouldn't have been in because
(32:25):
like you, you sat there for anhour and you didn't contribute
anything, et cetera, et cetera.
You write down these things.
Then when you come to your diaryand actually putting those,
those clients in, those tasksin, we have what we call the TOA
traffic light system.
And so when you have a clientthat is going to drain you and
(32:48):
you know, they're going to, andyou know, the ones.
Harv (32:49):
Mm hmm.
Absolutely.
Amy Hopper (32:51):
You put them in red.
Harv (32:52):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (32:53):
And when you have a client that's going to lift you
or, or a situation that's goingto lift you.
Like I love pitching.
So if I pitch in that, thatpitch is going to be green.
Harv (33:02):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (33:03):
And then your amber is, Oh, I don't really know.
It could go either way.
Harv (33:07):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (33:08):
And when you then look at that traffic light
system, you're able toemotionally regulate yourself
and say, okay, well, I've got aload of red on here.
I've got, I need to sandwichthis between green.
So then you go to your liftlist, you see what makes you
happy, and you make sure thatyou've got, if you've got a load
of red, that you've got at leasta big chunk of green before and
(33:29):
after.
So that your day doesn't startand you're just going down,
downhill,
Harv (33:35):
Yeah.
Amy Hopper (33:36):
you're keeping yourself emotionally regulated.
And that for me and my trafficlight system, I don't have any
red after 2pm.
Harv (33:42):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (33:43):
I have that sort of afternoon slump and I, unless
it's an emergency, unless it'san emergency and something's
come in, you just, you justcan't help it.
But then I would make sure thatI've got some green afterwards.
Harv (33:57):
I like that.
Amy Hopper (33:58):
It's, it's, I don't know why my Alexa keeps going.
Stupid, stupid thing.
I mean, sorry, lovely thing.
I don't like calling my Alexastupid just for when the robots
take over, they'll remember thatI was polite.
Harv (34:16):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Amy Hopper (34:18):
But yeah, going back to the point when you're talking
about emotional regulation andmaking sure that your battery
stays a little bit more fullthroughout the day, it's about
making sure you haven't got aload of red, you sandwich it
between the green and thatyou're really, truly
understanding what makes youhappy because some people don't
know and sometimes you're so,sometimes you are so, what's the
(34:41):
word?
Sometimes we can be so paralyzedthrough choice.
Particularly if we're having abusy day and if it's a busy ops
day, you just got so much stuffgoing on.
Even if you had 10 minutes tospare, the mental labor required
to choose something to lift youor think of what to do, you
actually sometimes don't havethe mental capacity to do that.
(35:02):
So that's why it's good to havethe lift list and go, Oh, okay,
I've got 10 minutes.
I can do that.
I fancy going for a walk.
I'll just go for a walk, and thedecision is kind of made for
you.
You've already pre created thelist.
It's also really good formanagers to understand that
every single person's lift listis different.
Harv (35:18):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Amy Hopper (35:19):
So it's no good in terms of wellbeing and you might
have the best of intention.
And saying, Oh, well, we'regoing to bring a yoga instructor
in and we're going to do yoga onthe, on the rooftop and
everyone's going to feel great.
The amount of drain lists I'veseen with yoga at the top, so
you can't have a one size fitsall.
Harv (35:39):
Right.
Amy Hopper (35:39):
And this is another reason why we say the team is
dead.
Cause we let, we get everyone todo their individual lift lists
and drain list in their firstworkshop, no matter what.
No matter what they're doingwith us, they always do that
first workshop first thing.
Because we want individuals tobe able to know themselves and
to practice that self awareness,practice that emotional
(35:59):
regulation so they're able tocommunicate better and set
better boundaries and interactwith well being activities that
will lift them, not drain them.
Harv (36:09):
Amazing.
I, I like there's multiplelayers to this.
First there's the non work stuffthere as well, that's on the
lift list, right?
And that could be good or bad.
And then you can also put tasksthere as well that make you feel
good or, or, or not so good.
And then, from what I understoodis that you put people there as
(36:30):
well.
Amy Hopper (36:31):
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that's another
workshop, but we, that's,that's, that's another reason
why sociology comes in as well,because I say when I do work,
particularly with C suite andthey might have a huge amount of
pressure on their shoulders.
And they might be thinkingabout, they might be going
through VC funding.
They might be starting a newbusiness.
They might be merging withanother or acquiring, or there,
(36:54):
there is a huge amount ofpressure and you could have the
best business plan that's everbeen written in the history of
man.
But if you're spending your timeexclusively with people that
make you feel three out of 10,that don't believe in you, that
don't say, yeah, you can do it,that are constantly criticizing
(37:14):
you or, or your abilities.
There is no way in hell you'regoing to be able to implement
that business plan successfully.
It's almost pointless.
So that's why we think about,when you think about sociology,
you think about the behaviors ofyour social groups and the wider
social culture.
You Need to be thinking how thathas an influence on you as an
(37:34):
individual and on your business,because it has a massive,
massive impact.
Huge impact.
And, and the impact on yourteam.
Harv (37:45):
Super, super good advice.
So, Can you tell us a bit aboutthe kind of work that you end up
doing with some of your agencycustomers.
Amy Hopper (37:53):
For sure.
So we tend to have three typesof clients that come to us.
And there is the first type ofclient, and then we'll have a
very specific goal.
Harv (38:04):
hmm.
Amy Hopper (38:04):
So for example, a couple of months ago, Adobe came
to us and said, we've got thiswomen's leadership program.
We want you to create a systemof workshops on confidence and
imposter syndrome to add to thatleadership program to be
delivered over the next year.
Like really very specific, cleargoal.
We know what we want.
This is it.
And we go absolutely no problem.
(38:25):
Let's go.
Harv (38:26):
Okay.
Okay.
Amy Hopper (38:27):
Then there'll be, um, the second type of client.
And that'd be, that's probablynormally our our main type of
client where they're coming tous and saying, we know we're
having challenges, our team haveexpressed this, we think that
this may be it, but we don't, wedon't really know, but it's
causing a lot of, a lot ofissues and that's when we'll go
in and we'll do a discoveryphase and it could be that we
(38:50):
do, surveys, one to oneinterviews, actually looking at
the nitty gritty of what, what'sgoing on.
Harv (38:58):
Okay.
Amy Hopper (38:58):
Finding out what those core, those key pinpoints
are.
Going back to the client andsaying, okay, this is what, this
is what we found out from yourteam which is all of course
anonymous, and gives them a muchbetter idea of what, what's
actually going on, which theymight not have known before.
Then we create a system ofworkshops, training, coaching,
(39:19):
maybe one to one mentoring,consultancy and, and structural
cultural change to, to help getthem on their way.
And then there is the thirdclient that come to us and they
say, we need a keynote to kickeveryone up the ass.
Harv (39:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
Amy Hopper (39:38):
And we go, you come to the right place.
Harv (39:40):
Mm hmm.
Okay.
Amy Hopper (39:43):
And that's normally for, people were having large
conferences or they're havingbig, big sort of team corporate
days with hundreds of people.
And we'll go and do either akeynote or a mini workshop.
And, and that'll be just bam,bam, bam.
Here are some things that youcan take away and implement from
day one.
Harv (40:02):
Amazing.
Very cool.
Very cool.
So we're coming towards the end
Amy Hopper (40:07):
No.
Harv (40:07):
of our, our session and I guess before we go, just a
moment to ask you if there's anyother advice you would give to
an ops director or growingagency, I'm putting you on the
spot and if there's nothing youwant to say, I will cut out this
question, but just any otheradvice, you know, we talked
about productivity and the liftlist, the traffic light system
(40:29):
and things like that.
Is, is there anything else youwould say, you know, whether
it's about collaboration oranything else you do?
Amy Hopper (40:36):
I'd say don't wait until the fire has started.
Harv (40:41):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hopper (40:42):
stop the fire from happening.
And in terms of wanting to bebetter, not only as a, as an
individual, but grow as anindividual and not just be
calmer and more self aware inyourself, but also a better team
member, a more empatheticleader.
Harv (40:59):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hopper (41:00):
A person that is able to, to take life and work
challenges and really remainresilient.
Harv (41:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hopper (41:12):
That investing in wellbeing and therapy is a huge
part of that and certainly hasbeen a huge part of, of me and
my personal growth.
Harv (41:21):
That is such an amazing, lovely note to end on.
I really, really like that.
Thank you.
Amy Hopper (41:26):
You're welcome.
Harv (41:27):
So if people wanna learn more about you and TOA, where do
they find more information?
Amy Hopper (41:32):
Oh, we can go to the website, toagroup.co.uk, or
please do connect with me onLinkedIn.
I absolutely adore talking topeople on LinkedIn and the
messages that we receive bothfrom happy clients and people
wanting to learn more.
So that would be fantastic.
Harv (41:49):
Excellent.
We'll do that.
Amy, thank you so much for beinghere today.
Amy Hopper (41:53):
It's been a pleasure.
Harv (41:55):
So, what did you think?
I find Amy's story incrediblyinspiring, and a lot of what she
says resonates.
As Ops folks, we can get veryinto tracking the metrics and
designing the processes, but Ido think it's important for us
to remember that humans aren'tmachines, and not only can we
not treat each other as if weare, but we can have more fun,
be more productive, and get moreout of each other, if we create
(42:17):
workplaces where we address theless tangible elements like
mental health and psychology.
And personally, I realized Icould definitely benefit from
creating a lift list, which wascreating a list of things I
enjoy doing or enjoy working on,and then scheduling my day ahead
with the traffic light system inmind, which meant sandwiching
those difficult people,conversations or tasks between
(42:40):
things that make me feel happyand energized.
I hope you'll be able to go awayand reflect on some of this as
well and see how it applies toyour workplace and take some
small steps to make a positivechange.
Now, before I go, I only haveone request for you.
Please share this podcast with afriend or colleague in the
agency space that wouldappreciate it.
I'm going to leave it there.
(43:01):
That's your cue.
Share the episode.
Thanks very much.
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