March 25, 2025 • 38 mins
How do agencies stack up in 2025?
The results are in for BenchPress 2025. The UK’s largest benchmarking survey for independent agencies has revealed some surprising (and shocking) trends about the state of the industry.
To break it all down, Rory Spence, Head of Commercial at The Wow Company, joins us to unpack the data, trends, and opportunities that agency leaders need to know.
In this episode, we cover:
- Why 2024 was a brutal year for many agencies (and how to bounce back)
- Profitability trends and how top-performing agencies maintain strong margins
- AI’s growing role in agency operations (and the pricing mistake you must avoid)
- The power of confidence in agency success - and how to build it
If you're focused on making your agency more efficient and financially stronger, these insights will help you drive meaningful change.
Additional Resources:
Download the full BenchPress 2025 report at thewowcompany.com/BenchPress
Follow Rory on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rory-spence-63023884/
Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/
Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.
This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harv Nagra (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Handbook, the agency
(00:02):
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Now, back to the episode.
(01:28):
Hi all.
Welcome back to the Handbook.
The most important thing thatyou can be doing is running a
smart, efficient agency, Butknowing what's happening amongst
your agency peers keeps yousharp.
Today we've got a specialepisode.
We're diving into the findingsfrom the 2025 Benchpress Report.
The UK's largest benchmarkingsurvey of independent agency
(01:51):
owners.
If you've ever wondered how youragency compares, whether it's on
pricing growth or what's keepingother agency leaders up at
night, this report has theanswers.
Since launching BenchPress hasbecome the go-to resource for
insights into the trends shapingagencies across the uk and this
year's findings, they're asinteresting as ever.
(02:13):
Here's a few headlines I had thechance to preview.
A third of agencies maderedundancies last year up from
26%.
The year before.
Only 38% of agencies ended 2024larger than they started
Agencies using tiered hourlyrates fell for the first time.
I mean, I've never heard of thathappening before.
(02:36):
The number of agencies at riskwith less than one month of
overheads in their cash reservesrose from 9% to 12%.
Agencies with six plus months ofoverheads as cash reserves
dropped from 28% to 23% To breakit all down, and in particular,
shed light on the opportunities.
(02:57):
I'm joined by Rory Spence, headof commercial at the WOW
Company, The accounting firm andthe team behind the BenchPress
report.
Rory leads, Wow's sales,marketing, and commercial
strategy helping agenciesnavigate the challenges of
scaling sustainably.
So let's dive in to see what'sreally happening in the agency
world and what you can do tostay ahead.
(03:19):
Rory, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much for being here.
Rory Spence (03:21):
Thanks so much, Harv.
Thanks for having me.
I've been excited for today.
Harv Nagra (03:25):
Absolutely.
It's a pleasure.
so we're here to talk aboutBenchPress today, which has been
running for a while now.
I think it was 2012 when itstarted, which is quite a while
for a survey like this, right?
Is is that true first of
Rory Spence (03:36):
Yeah.
it absolutely is.
It started back in 2012 and Ithink that report might have
been eight pages long.
Uh.
Harv Nagra (03:43):
Okay.
Rory Spence (03:44):
one that is about to go live in 2025 is certainly
closer to 40 or 50, so it haschanged a lot in that time.
Harv Nagra (03:53):
nice.
And the number of agencies, Iguess, has expanded as well in
terms of, how many peoplerespond and all that kind of
Rory Spence (03:59):
It certainly has.
a few years ago, we tipped overthe 500 mark for the first time,
and this year we got 677, whichwas
Harv Nagra (04:08):
Wow,
Rory Spence (04:08):
a very minor increase on last year, but an
increase nonetheless.
So we were very happy with that.
Harv Nagra (04:14):
that is really impressive.
So you've been at the WowCompany for a few years.
I'm just wondering, what you'reseeing in the results this year,
any major shifts in the kind ofchallenges agencies have been
facing that kind of jump out toyou?
Rory Spence (04:24):
It is an interesting question.
Yes and no.
So to be honest, we always askwhat the number one challenge is
for agencies and really withoutfail new business is always the
number one challenge.
So
Harv Nagra (04:36):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (04:36):
I guess in that sense, no, the challenges
haven't changed too much.
What I would say though is it'sjust got harder.
See that you can sense that fromthe conversations we have with
agency owners and howcompetitive the industry as is
right now, there are so manyagencies out there that it makes
it incredibly tough todifferentiate, incredibly tough
(05:00):
to compete on price and becompetitive because there are
always cheaper options outthere, and that is making it so,
so difficult to, yeah, tocompete and to win work.
Harv Nagra (05:12):
Absolutely.
Um, just went live with anepisode today where that was the
theme that, there's so muchcompetition out there and then
you've got the pressure of AIand what, how that's gonna
change The industry as well.
So I'm sure some of that stuffwill be coming out in your
research that we'll be talkingabout today.
But, before we dive in, didanything jump out to you as like
the most surprising thing thatyou saw in this year's results?
Rory Spence (05:33):
surprising is probably not the right word for
it, but I, I, I'd say quiteshocking, to be honest with you,
was, was the key word.
When we started getting thisanalysis back from all of these
agencies that had kindly takenpart in the survey, we knew that
2024.
Was immensely tough, Right.
We're well connected withagencies.
We've got a number of agencyclients and so we could see
(05:55):
firsthand that it was difficult,but just how difficult it was.
I don't think we werenecessarily expecting.
you know, we saw drops inprofitability, drops in cash
levels, drops in growth rates.
Increases in redundanciesfrankly, it was a pretty brutal
year.
So, it's not all doom and gloom.
There are plenty ofopportunities out there for
(06:16):
agencies going into 2025 and,and reasons to be positive, I
think.
But in terms of reflecting on2024, yeah, just, just a really
brutal year.
Harv Nagra (06:26):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So, from our chat, earlier Iunderstand that several
interesting trends or, or, orthemes emerged and, some
opportunities that you saw.
So excited to get into some ofthat stuff.
would love for you to introducethe first, and, and let's, let's
hear about
Rory Spence (06:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, one of the things that wesaw from the report was, we
always ask people what theirnumber one focus is for their
agency.
when we asked this last year.
building an asset was numberone, and then
Harv Nagra (06:55):
Hmm,
Rory Spence (06:55):
the second was operating with purpose, but they
were quite close.
There was actually not a hugegap between those people that
were trying to build an, anasset to ultimately sell, and
those that were just trying todo the right thing and, and
operate with clear purpose.
Now, when we asked that thisyear, that gap broadened
massively.
There was a huge increaseactually, and a shift to
agencies saying, you know what?
(07:16):
We are ready to exit thebusiness now.
And we're building somethingthat we are looking to to
proactively sell.
And I think unfortunately, thatis off the back of such a brutal
year and a real hit on people'senergy levels and saying,
actually enough's enough, like Iwant out of this, which I.
We know is tough because ofcourse the worst time to sell a
(07:37):
business is when you reallywanna sell it.
And the best time to sell abusiness is when you have no
interest.
And why would I sell this?
This is a cash cow.
So it is challenging in thatrespect.
But to get to your question andpoint Harv around opportunities,
there is a huge opportunitythere now for agencies who are
either looking to buy or who are
Harv Nagra (07:58):
Yeah.
looking
Rory Spence (07:59):
to exit.
We're gonna see an increasethere.
Harv Nagra (08:01):
that number was 58%, wasn't it?
agency owners looking to sayselling their business was their
number one priority.
that definitely surprised mewhen I read that.
That is, that was quite hugeactually.
So super, super interesting.
I was reading that it was upfrom 44% a couple years ago,
which
Rory Spence (08:18):
Exactly that from, from the year before.
Yeah, exactly.
So quite, quite a big jump and,and most of those percentages
that jumped onto that haddropped off that I'm building
something with purpose
Harv Nagra (08:28):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (08:28):
do that.
so.
A really, you know, interestingstep that we are starting to
talk to our clients about rightnow at Wow.
Is actually thinking about,well, you know what?
If you are thinking aboutselling your business, start
doing that thinking really,really smartly.
Now actually think about if youwere to sell your agency, what
(08:49):
would be some of the key thingsthat a buyer would really value,
and what would be some of thepotential challenges that would
prevent a sale or that wouldreduce the value of, of your
agency?
And a really smart way to lookat that quite simply is if you
bought your own agency today,What would be some of the key
areas?
How would you analyze thosedifferent things?
Thinking about, for example,what is your client portfolio,
(09:13):
how healthy is that?
How much of them maybe, are onretained contracts?
For example, thinking about yourteam as well, and particularly
some of the key people withinyour team, you know, actually,
like, are they assets?
Have you got the right people inthe right places within your
team?
And just think there's afantastic opportunity to really
look internally at your businessand go,
Harv Nagra (09:35):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (09:35):
if II bought my business tomorrow, what would be
the areas that would bepositives and what would be the
areas that are negatives?
And then what can you go and doabout that?
Because it's gonna be the bestway to ultimately prepare for a
sale for those 58% that arethinking of doing that.
Harv Nagra (09:52):
Absolutely.
And you know, audience for ourpodcast here is operations
Leaders and it's all aboutbuilding a mature, efficient
agency.
And you're, you're absolutelyright.
In order to get into thatposition to be able to sell, you
want it to be running really,really well, to be attractive to
a buyer.
So.
Really good
Rory Spence (10:09):
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (10:09):
so why don't we go into the next, next trend sorry,
what should I call them?
stats
Rory Spence (10:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Like, Yeah.
The next opportunity, so a,again, in terms of reflecting on
the stats from 2024, we, we sawprofitability was down again.
So, when we talk aboutprofitability usually at Wow
here, we're talking about grossprofit, and we've got a very
specific way that we wouldrecommend you track your gross
profit to keep it to headlinestoday in the for the sake of
(10:38):
this podcast, it is using yourbillable staff salaries or
freelance costs in your grossprofit calculation.
Harv Nagra (10:47):
Okay.
Rory Spence (10:47):
taking your sales, your revenue, and then
subtracting the cost of the teamthat are delivering on that
work, that's gonna give you yourgross profit.
Okay.
So, if you are listening to thisand that's gone over your head
and you're really, interested inthis, but confused, like, give
me a shout and I'm really happyto go through this process, but
(11:08):
that is how Wow would recommendyou calculate your gross profit
margin, and by using thatformula.
We know that the top formingagencies are exceeding 50% gross
profit margin when using thatcalculation, that methodology,
Harv Nagra (11:25):
Okay.
Rory Spence (11:25):
we know that last year the average agency for over
a million pound turnover was at40%.
This year, that dropped again to39%, so might only be down by
1%, but it's going in the wrongdirection because really we
should be going up.
40% was already too low, we'vegotta be getting back to that
50% mark.
Harv Nagra (11:45):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (11:46):
Now, why is it smart to track gross profit in
that way?
Well, first of all, so you canbenchmark yourself and know
where you are at compared tothese stats, so that's really
useful.
But B, it's gonna give you areally clear indication as to
why your profitability is up orout, So what I mean by that is
if you only ever looked at youroperating profit, well frankly,
(12:07):
what's gonna impact that is youroverheads.
Harv Nagra (12:10):
Right.
Rory Spence (12:10):
should be a straightforward task to review
of ads, right?
And be able to see where am Ipotentially overspending.
And there's limitedopportunities to do too much
there anyway.
When looking at gross profit inthis way, you can see, am I
charging enough?
Are the team actually like, arethey utilized fully?
do I potentially have too muchstaff cost.
(12:31):
And is that because either I'vegot too many staff or I've got
too many senior staff that areon high salaries and my ratio of
kind of senior to junior membersisn't quite Right.
am I overdelivering for example?
You know, it's gonna give youclues as to what's causing
potentially a low gross profitor what's causing hopefully a
(12:51):
high gross profit margin.
Harv Nagra (12:53):
Right.
Super interesting.
So, one thing I was gonna askyou on that is that I feel like
that does differ from thestandard definition of gross
profit, if I'm not mistakennormally.
Rory Spence (13:03):
No, great question.
So you are absolutely Right.
if you are working with anaccountant and they say, no, no,
your gross profit should includethat, it should cost, it should
only include direct costs ofsales, which might be some
software costs, for example,that the client is buying.
they wouldn't be technicallyincorrect for the record, I'm
not suggesting that thataccountant doesn't know what
(13:24):
they're doing.
What I'm saying is that isn'tgoing to give you meaningful
information,
Harv Nagra (13:28):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (13:29):
okay?
So we at Wow, are all aboutgiving you data and insights
that will allow you to analyzethe performance of your business
and make improvements.
And by tracking it this way,you're going to get better data
and you're gonna be able to makebetter decisions to build a
better business.
So
Harv Nagra (13:45):
Sure.
Rory Spence (13:46):
why we recommend tracking gross profit in that
way.
Harv Nagra (13:50):
That makes sense.
So, Rory, with regards toprofitability, is there an
opportunity there as well?
And, and can you shed some lighton what agencies could be doing
Rory Spence (13:59):
100% massive opportunity here.
So we've just seen and andshared that gross profit margins
are down again.
And if I was running an agencyright now, I'd absolutely be
looking really in detail at whatlevel I'm at right now, what is
my overall gross profit, butthen how detailed can you get
with this as well?
Harv Nagra (14:18):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (14:19):
Can you look at your gross profit by department?
Can you look at your grossprofit, by service line, or that
might be the same thing.
Can you look at, even grossprofit by individual?
For example, can you look atgross profit by client?
there's a whole load of realdetailed data that you can go to
here to see quite simply, whereis your agency making money and
(14:41):
where is your agency not makingmoney?
And you can then make reallysmart decisions.
one example of this might bethat you look and go, well, this
particular service that weprovide in our agency actually
isn't highly profitable, it's atbelow
Harv Nagra (14:58):
Right.
Rory Spence (14:58):
it's down at 40 or 30%.
But you might say, well, that'sthe thing that gets clients in
the door.
That's how they find us.
So we need to offer that.
Now of course there might besomething you can do to make
that more profitable, but whatyou might also look at is go,
well, yeah, that one is downthere, but when we then provide
(15:19):
this service for clients.
Our margins are up at 60, 70%.
So this is our premium service.
Now, what does that tell you?
Hopefully you can figure thisout.
But what it tells you is youneed to be speaking to every
single client that buys serviceA from you, they also need to be
buying service B from you.
(15:39):
'cause this is where you makeyour money.
This is where the margins comefrom.
Harv Nagra (15:43):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (15:43):
So that's just one example of where getting this
really detailed information canhelp you to make smart
decisions.
It will also enable you to lookin detail at your pricing.
Are you being paid what you areworth?
And if you can get obsessedaround your profit margins on a
gross profit basis, that willtake over from revenue.
(16:04):
Right?
We've always, we've always beeningrained to be obsessed about
turnover and revenue.
Right?
But believe me, you will startforgetting about that when you
get obsessed about gross profitand this is the number that
should really matter.
Harv Nagra (16:18):
It matters
Rory Spence (16:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
so I'm sure you see this all thetime as well, right?
Harv?
Harv Nagra (16:23):
Absolutely.
And I think some agencies, you,you're right, get very obsessed,
especially in the earlier stagesof maturity, about turnover, but
ultimately that can lead to,problems if that's all you're
focused on.
And it's like leaky bucket,
Rory Spence (16:38):
exactly right.
Harv Nagra (16:39):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (16:39):
A hundred percent.
I, I, I'm a big believer,there's only one thing worse
than not winning, work and, andthat's winning unprofitable
work.
So actually if, if we areobsessed about revenue, there's
a risk that we will winunprofitable work because we're
just trying to bring stuff in,at the top end.
If we can get obsessed aboutgross profit to the point where
(17:01):
we start saying no to projectsbecause they are not profitable
for us or not profitable enough,that's a brilliant place to be.
That is more important.
so yeah, get really, reallydetailed around this.
Look at how much it is costingyou to deliver work and then how
much you are actually making asa result of that.
And if there's a disparitythere, like what can you do
(17:23):
about it?
That's the big opportunity.
When it comes to profit, Ithink.
Harv Nagra (17:28):
And a really nice reminder Rory as well, that you
need to be tracking all thisstuff and being able to report
on it as well.
And that's so important.
I, I'm wondering, like, I, Idon't know if you can comment on
when, agencies are coming toyourselves and starting to get
involved, whether you, you haveto take them on that journey of
maturity and, and get them to aplace where they can see and
(17:48):
measure all of that stuff.
Or if you think generally,people are doing a decent job?
Rory Spence (17:53):
Such a great question, Harv.
So a lot of the agencies we willwork with, they're all over a
million pound turnover.
So they'll often come to us aslike their second accountants.
They've worked with anaccountancy firm that has got
them so far and they've done afantastic job of filing their
accounts and doing their taxesand keeping them compliant.
And then as you get to that sortof million pound ish mark, you
(18:15):
realize I need this sort ofdata, the stuff we're talking
about Right now.
Actually that accountancy firmmaybe are not best positioned to
do that.
So that is often, mostfrequently where Wow, then comes
in and we start working withpeople in that scenario.
And so they don't have thisdata, they don't have these,
these reports set up,
Harv Nagra (18:34):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (18:35):
is the number one role for us straight away.
First two, three months.
Let's get you set up on this andlet's get you educated on this.
Let's talk through why weshould.
Change your p and l layout tofrom how it is at the moment to,
to this, approach.
Let's start looking at grossprofit in detail and let's do
that analysis of what your mostprofitable offerings are, what
(18:57):
your most profitable clientsare, what are the clues there,
what's causing them to be highlyprofitable?
Harv Nagra (19:02):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (19:03):
so there is absolutely this really exciting.
2, 3, 4 month periods with allnew clients that we work with,
where we go through this kind ofeducation piece and we get them
harnessed with this data wherethese opportunities are like,
it's just suddenly appear out ofnowhere.
It becomes obvious, ah, if Ipulled this lever over here,
(19:25):
it's gonna make a big differenceto my gross profit margin, which
has a knock on effect to myoperating profit as well.
Harv Nagra (19:32):
Such an important part of the journey of maturity.
Alright, so let's go into the,the next kind of opportunity.
Rory Spence (19:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the next opportunity weare seeing, and I, I wanna
caveat this with, I'm certainlyno expert on AI.
But absolutely AI is, is theopportunity ahead in 2025.
Harv Nagra (19:52):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (19:52):
what was really interesting is we asked agency
owners how they felt about AI acouple of years ago in our
BenchPress survey from 2023, Ibelieve.
And some said we see this as alittle bit of a threat.
A lot said we are not currentlyusing it.
well now it's very different.
The results from 2025 surveysaid 95% of agencies are using
(20:16):
AI in their agency, and most ofthem are using it in a client
facing capacity as well, which Ithink is hugely, encouraging and
and exciting at what thoseopportunities are now.
personally I have a nervousnessaround this.
So I was at an event that we ranin London very recently, and a
(20:39):
conversation sparked up, wherepeople said, ah, there, there,
there was a question asked, andthey said there, I'm curious
when using AI and it making iteasier to deliver on projects
and you are, you are able tosave time, do you pass that cost
saving onto the client?
Harv Nagra (20:59):
I've heard that question as well, for, for a
couple years at this point now,so, but I'll let you
Rory Spence (21:04):
Harv.
Like I thought, oh, this poorperson, okay, well let's help
them.
Harv Nagra (21:10):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (21:10):
to my shock, several other people around the
room piped up, said, yeah, yeah.
I'm interested about this aswell.
And, and Harv, you just alludedto it as well, you've heard this
a lot over the years, but I'mshocked because that makes no
sense.
Harv Nagra (21:24):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (21:24):
If as an agency you're investing your time and
money in AI tools that can makeyou more efficient in delivering
client work, however you arethen passing that time saving
and cost saving onto the client.
What is the point in youinvesting in it in the first
time?
If we use really simple termshere, if you are operating at an
(21:46):
hourly rate of a hundred poundsand you've got 10 hours to sell,
you've got a thousand pounds oftime there.
Now if you've just suddenly usedan AI tool and this thing has
only taken you four hours, butyou're now only gonna charge 400
pound for it because it's fourhours at a hundred pound, you
still need to fill those othersix hours in order to make the
(22:08):
same amount of money as youwould've done before.
So.
I passionately feel that we needto be smart with how we are
positioning our use of ai.
And if you, as the agency areinvesting in this tech to
streamline your own processesand how you deliver work for
clients, I'm not suggesting youkeep a hundred percent of that
(22:31):
benefit, but Absolutely youshould be rewarded for your
efficiency, because otherwise,we are only helping the client
and we're doing that for free.
It makes absolutely no sense.
So.
Harv Nagra (22:43):
Yeah, I, I, I think you're right.
And I think maybe part of theproblem is not knowing how to,
defend yourself in that argumentWhen a client says, oh, your X
times more efficient, shouldn'tyou be passing on the savings?
So just making sure that you'reable to challenge that and say,
well, we're able to do so muchmore now, and you're getting so
much more value out of the workwe're doing, and be prepared to
(23:03):
answer
Rory Spence (23:04):
Exactly right, and I think there's an excellent
quote.
Which I wish I could rememberword for word, but I can't.
About how, if you know theanswer to a question that a
client has asked, and you'veonly needed 10 minutes to figure
it out and give them the answer,you shouldn't be rewarded for
the 10 minutes it took you tofind the answer.
you should be rewarded for theyears it took you.
Harv Nagra (23:26):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (23:26):
Are the years of experience and training to get
to this point where you knewthat answer within 10 minutes,
and I think this is the same.
So you shouldn't be punishedbecause you've found a way to
deliver this work quicker.
And I think we need to be reallysmart in how we position that to
clients as well, anyway.
yes, we need new terms andconditions and the like that
(23:48):
need to go out to clients to saythat you are using ai, to handle
their data and things like that.
And there's all this legalstuff, which clearly I'm no
expert on.
So yes, you need to betransparent in that you are
using AI in that sense, but weneed to be smart in terms of how
we position the use of it, thatyou are not just, Sitting and
putting your feet up while therobots, deliver everything
(24:09):
basically.
Harv Nagra (24:09):
Alright, Rory, so let's talk about the next kind
of opportunity, that came out inyour research.
Rory Spence (24:14):
Yeah.
The, the fourth big opportunitythat, that we've identified,
having digested all of the datais, that actually like
confidence really matters.
So every year in this BenchPresssurvey, we ask agency owners how
they're feeling on a scale ofzero to a hundred, if you are 50
or neutral.
(24:34):
If you are less than 50, you arenot feeling good about the year
ahead.
Harv Nagra (24:39):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (24:39):
more than 50, you are feeling positive about the
year ahead.
It's been really interesting tosee how that's gone up and down
over the years.
And agency owners can alwayssense what is coming because
when that is up, we have goodyears and when that's down we
have bad years.
But what was really interestingis we actually analyzed those
agencies that took part lastyear
Harv Nagra (25:01):
Right.
Rory Spence (25:01):
and had high confidence scores.
Harv Nagra (25:04):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (25:04):
Considerably outperformedd those that had
lower confidence scores, lowerthan 70, in terms of their
growth, their profitability overthe year ahead, that then that
then happened.
And so I know you could arguethat, well, of, of course if you
are more confident it's'causeyou think you're having a good
year and then you have had agood year.
But actually I think it's areally interesting way to look
(25:26):
at it to say, well, actually,confidence does really matter.
If you've got confidence in yourbusiness, positive things will
happen as a result, and you aremore likely to get great
results.
And so I think there are thingsthat we can all do as leaders in
the business to build thatconfidence ourselves, but also
build a confident team around usand actually build a really
(25:49):
great mindset in the business ofthere are these opportunities
ahead.
Yes, it's been really tough.
It's been a brutal year foragencies, but there are all
these opportunities and how dowe go and tackle those?
So I think some things that canwork really well in terms of
building that confidence.
One, get really thorough withlike targets.
(26:11):
big believer, weekly targets isa great way to do this, right?
And focus on the controllables,right?
There's a bunch of stuff youcan't control as an agency
owner, particularly on the salesfront, right?
Harv Nagra (26:23):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (26:24):
a lot of business owners, agency owners will be
doing the new businessthemselves.
You can't force someone to signa contract, right?
You can't force a proposal outthe door.
But what can you do?
You can control.
How many LinkedIn messagesyou're sending in a week.
You can control how many eventsyou're attending in a month.
You can control to a reasonabledegree, how many speaking gigs
(26:46):
you are maybe doing over thecourse of a year.
Harv Nagra (26:49):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (26:50):
get really hyperfocused around that.
And I'd encourage you to buildweekly targets around that.
Right.
Monthly.
There's only 12 of those in ayear
Harv Nagra (26:57):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (26:58):
and actually once one is gone, you're almost 10%
of the way through the year.
Like
Harv Nagra (27:03):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (27:03):
three have gone, you're 25% of the way through
the year.
So imagine you have three badmonths in a row kind of, it only
takes you that long to mayberealize and analyze it and go,
we were behind where we neededto be.
It's too late.
You've lost 25% of the year.
If you put that into weeks,three weeks go by
Harv Nagra (27:23):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (27:24):
you, you're nowhere near even you.
Can't do the maths frankly, butyou're about 5% of the way
through the year.
So you can make changes reallyquickly that are gonna get
results, get really focusedaround weekly targets.
It's a great way to buildmomentum and therefore to build
confidence for yourself as theleader, but also, within your
team as well.
(27:44):
So that's one thing that I lovethat can just really help to
bring a bit of energy, bring abit of confidence back.
The other is like celebratingthese wins, right?
Celebrate even the little wins.
We don't need to wait any longerto win a hundred K deals in
order to celebrate with theteam.
Harv Nagra (28:02):
Mm,
Rory Spence (28:03):
make this a daily ritual, something that happens
all the time.
Harv Nagra (28:07):
so important.
Rory Spence (28:08):
do you have any tips or, uh, you know, we do
something at wow, Harv thatworks really well.
Do you have any tips in terms ofhow to sort of celebrate those?
Harv Nagra (28:16):
when you're busy, it's so easy to forget to do
that, and, and projectssometimes either stretch on
forever in an agency and feellike they never end, or when
they do end, there's just like10 more that need your
attention.
So taking the time is easy toforget.
one thing I think that worksreally well is having like a
celebration channel in, in
Rory Spence (28:35):
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (28:35):
you shout out a new pitch win or project close or,
or whatever, big milestone orlaunch or web launch, whatever
it is.
I, I think that's superimportant.
And of course, if you can takeyour team out for, for drinks or
a lunch or something like that,that's even better.
What, what kind of, uh, kinds ofthings do you hear
Rory Spence (28:52):
Totally agree.
Ah, look, both of those things,absolutely.
We've got a celebration channelat Wow as well.
We call it our Wow Storieschannel.
And even as simple as clientemails to say.
Thank you so much.
You're a lifesaver.
or, whatever it might be.
It could be the smallest thing.
Someone will screen grab that,stick it in that channel and go,
Hey, go Harv, you know, good foryou.
(29:14):
and that's, that's amazing.
We use Office Vibe, which is abrilliant piece of software that
allows us to track, EmployeeNPS, there's a load of benefits
to doing that, and maybe that'sa conversation for another day.
But within Office Vibe, there'sa great feature called Good
Vibes where you can sendsomeone, it's like a postcard to
be like, Hey, I admire yourleadership.
(29:34):
And I could go, oh, I'm gonnasend that to Harv with a little
message.
And it just happens privately.
But there's nothing better thanwhen you get that email and, the
email subject is, you receivesome good vibes.
you are like, and there's thissuspense.
Who's it from?
What is it?
And it's just a lovely feeling.
And so we actively encouragethat.
And I think there's a bunch ofstuff you can do, but if you can
(29:56):
get really obsessed around thisand get the team doing this, it
doesn't have to come from theleaders.
Everyone can do this.
Uh, that's where
Harv Nagra (30:03):
It builds like really positive kind of
sentiment in the team and giveseveryone that energy.
But you know, what you weresaying about confidence, I think
it's also important to rememberthat like, it doesn't come from
nothing, right?
It, it takes effort.
Like you're saying, good habitsgive you confidence when you're,
you've got that sales funnelrunning efficiently.
When you've got good operationaland financial foundations in
(30:24):
your business, you can naturallybe confident because you have
some visibility of where you'regonna be going and what you're,
how you're meant to be runningyour business and all that kind
of stuff.
So all the more reason to makesure your foundations are in
place.
You have good habits in place.
Rory Spence (30:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, what brings confidenceat the end of the day?
It, well, confidence comes fromthe predictability that the
times ahead are really good.
that's, that's why we'reconfident.
We feel confident.
'cause we're like, yeah, nextweek's gonna be great.
Next month's gonna be great.
Next quarter's looking good.
if you don't have thatpredictability.
(31:01):
If it isn't clear what resultsyou're gonna get, if you don't
have leading indicators that aregiving you insight into future
performance, then no wonder youare not gonna be feeling
confident.
It may well end up that thingsgo well.
Harv Nagra (31:16):
Right.
Rory Spence (31:16):
It doesn't mean you are, you are gonna fail if you
don't have these things, but it,
Harv Nagra (31:20):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (31:20):
have the insight, how can you have the confidence
to go, Harv, I know that themonth ahead is gonna be really
positive for these reasons.
We're doing all the rightthings.
Harv Nagra (31:29):
Yeah.
You live in anxiety and it's abit of a surprise the way things
turn out rather than kind of acalculated journey.
Really, really good point.
Excellent, Rory.
So that's really interestinghearing about some of the
opportunities that you've seenand kind of inspires us.
So what is next for BenchPress?
Rory Spence (31:47):
Yeah.
great question.
So this is just report one ofthree that we're gonna be
releasing in 2025.
so this is what we call ourState of the Agency Nation
Report, which you can nowdownload for free.
what's coming next is in Maywe're gonna release our people
and salaries report.
So there'll be a bit in therearound recruitment, around
(32:08):
retention, the roles that peoplehave within agencies and also
salaries, which is gonna be thefirst, which is exciting.
and then in July we're gonna bereleasing, our agency milestones
report, which is gonna giveinsight into, what size was the
business when they first hired asalesperson, or how long had the
(32:29):
business been running when theywon their first a hundred K
deal, for example.
Harv Nagra (32:32):
Right.
Rory Spence (32:33):
So, a little bit around kind of timings and what
you could achieve at differentsizes of agency
Harv Nagra (32:39):
Super interesting.
Is that July
Rory Spence (32:40):
July That one is coming out.
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (32:42):
And you're calling it the agency Milestones?
Is,
Rory Spence (32:44):
that's it?
Harv Nagra (32:45):
Nice.
do you already have your handson that data and, anything
interesting, that you can
Rory Spence (32:50):
I don't have, really my hands on the data yet.
so I don't know what is coming.
but I'm excited to see.
I'm really curious to see thebalance between senior and
mid-level and junior staffwithin an agency.
And see how that's structured.
I think that's gonna be reallyfascinating.
(33:11):
really intrigued to see thesalaries because we've never
done that before and it's beenrequested countless time.
So we are doing
Harv Nagra (33:19):
Right.
Rory Spence (33:20):
the people want, which is gonna be exciting.
the agency milestones report.
I'm really fascinated to seewhen people hire salespeople
Harv Nagra (33:30):
Yep.
Rory Spence (33:31):
when people hire marketing people, because of
course we mentioned this earlierin the podcast, but the number
one challenge for agencies isalways new business without
fail.
So it'd be really fascinating.
I know, and I'm sure you'veheard this countless times,
Harv, that it's difficult tohire new business people if
you're an agency.
(33:51):
And often it has to be theagency owner that is delivering
that work.
And so I am fascinated to seewhat size does that maybe
happen, how many people havedone that or not done that?
And I think some interestinginsights will come out of that.
Harv Nagra (34:06):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Similar to ops folks coming intoagencies as well.
It often comes a little bit toolate, later than it should be.
And, might pay dividends if, ifit wasn't always so, so late in
the game.
But yeah, really, reallyinterested seeing that.
so we're coming up to the end ofour discussion.
can you tell us before we go alittle bit more about what the
(34:28):
Wow Company does?
Rory Spence (34:29):
Absolutely.
So the Wow Company is anaccountancy firm that works with
agencies and consultancies overa million pound turnover.
Harv Nagra (34:37):
Okay.
Rory Spence (34:37):
So yes, we will do all of the standard things you'd
expect an accountancy firm todo, but
Harv Nagra (34:42):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (34:43):
we also do more than that.
We allow you to outsource yourfinances to us.
So a lot of our clients don'thave financial controllers,
finance managers in theirbusiness because we'll do all of
that for them, which is a hugeperk.
But we also deliver strategicadvice to those agencies where
we work with so many and we'vegot our BenchPress data.
We're able to really see this iswhat makes agencies tick.
(35:06):
This is what the top performingagencies are doing and how can
you do that?
What are some of the levers thatyou can pull and how can we get
you the insights and the data tomake those decisions?
Harv Nagra (35:18):
Excellent.
That sounds really, reallygreat.
So if people want to learn moreabout the business and get in
touch with yourself or yourteam, where where can they reach
out?
Rory Spence (35:26):
Yeah, so come to our website, the wow
company.com.
come to my LinkedIn and drop mea message because honestly, I
love chatting to agency ownersand leaders and hearing what
challenges you have and howyou're tackling them.
And.
I love that because I learn morethan anybody else.
I think during that process.
(35:46):
I just love chat to people,hearing what they're up to.
So if you are listening to thisand you fancy reaching out to
have a chat, let's grab avirtual coffee, and I would love
to do that.
Harv Nagra (35:56):
Amazing.
We'll put a link to your websiteand your LinkedIn in the show
notes, so please do go checkthat out.
Rory, it's been an absolutepleasure.
I'm really excited to see themore detailed report come out.
by the time people hear thisconversation, that will be out.
So excited to see all theheadlines and dive into it and
see what we can learn.
Thanks again for coming on
Rory Spence (36:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Harv.
I've loved it.
Hi everyone.
So while the past few years havebeen tough, as Rory pointed out
in today's chat, there's plentyof opportunities for us to take
advantage of and when businessis slower, it's our jobs as
operations leaders to figure outwhere we can make things leaner
and more efficient to ensure weremain profitable.
(36:38):
By the time you hear thisepisode, BenchPress will be
available to download.
So go to the wowcompany.com/BenchPress to get a
copy of the report and see allof the results for yourself.
Remember, we send a biweeklynewsletter with takeaways from
the podcast conversations, soyou have something to reference
in your inbox.
(36:58):
Go scoro.com/podcast.
Scroll down and you'll see thenewsletter sign up form.
And finally, if you enjoy thehandbook, there's three things
you can do right now.
Rate the podcast on Apple orSpotify.
Share the episode with a friendor colleague and connect with me
on LinkedIn and join theconversation when I post about
(37:19):
each episode.
I'll be back with the nextepisode soon.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for listening to The Handbook, the agency
(00:02):
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I mean, I've witnessed peoplecopying and pasting each other's
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Now, back to the episode.
(01:28):
Hi all.
Welcome back to the Handbook.
The most important thing thatyou can be doing is running a
smart, efficient agency, Butknowing what's happening amongst
your agency peers keeps yousharp.
Today we've got a specialepisode.
We're diving into the findingsfrom the 2025 Benchpress Report.
The UK's largest benchmarkingsurvey of independent agency
(01:51):
owners.
If you've ever wondered how youragency compares, whether it's on
pricing growth or what's keepingother agency leaders up at
night, this report has theanswers.
Since launching BenchPress hasbecome the go-to resource for
insights into the trends shapingagencies across the uk and this
year's findings, they're asinteresting as ever.
(02:13):
Here's a few headlines I had thechance to preview.
A third of agencies maderedundancies last year up from
26%.
The year before.
Only 38% of agencies ended 2024larger than they started
Agencies using tiered hourlyrates fell for the first time.
I mean, I've never heard of thathappening before.
(02:36):
The number of agencies at riskwith less than one month of
overheads in their cash reservesrose from 9% to 12%.
Agencies with six plus months ofoverheads as cash reserves
dropped from 28% to 23% To breakit all down, and in particular,
shed light on the opportunities.
(02:57):
I'm joined by Rory Spence, headof commercial at the WOW
Company, The accounting firm andthe team behind the BenchPress
report.
Rory leads, Wow's sales,marketing, and commercial
strategy helping agenciesnavigate the challenges of
scaling sustainably.
So let's dive in to see what'sreally happening in the agency
world and what you can do tostay ahead.
(03:19):
Rory, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much for being here.
Rory Spence (03:21):
Thanks so much, Harv.
Thanks for having me.
I've been excited for today.
Harv Nagra (03:25):
Absolutely.
It's a pleasure.
so we're here to talk aboutBenchPress today, which has been
running for a while now.
I think it was 2012 when itstarted, which is quite a while
for a survey like this, right?
Is is that true first of
Rory Spence (03:36):
Yeah.
it absolutely is.
It started back in 2012 and Ithink that report might have
been eight pages long.
Uh.
Harv Nagra (03:43):
Okay.
Rory Spence (03:44):
one that is about to go live in 2025 is certainly
closer to 40 or 50, so it haschanged a lot in that time.
Harv Nagra (03:53):
nice.
And the number of agencies, Iguess, has expanded as well in
terms of, how many peoplerespond and all that kind of
Rory Spence (03:59):
It certainly has.
a few years ago, we tipped overthe 500 mark for the first time,
and this year we got 677, whichwas
Harv Nagra (04:08):
Wow,
Rory Spence (04:08):
a very minor increase on last year, but an
increase nonetheless.
So we were very happy with that.
Harv Nagra (04:14):
that is really impressive.
So you've been at the WowCompany for a few years.
I'm just wondering, what you'reseeing in the results this year,
any major shifts in the kind ofchallenges agencies have been
facing that kind of jump out toyou?
Rory Spence (04:24):
It is an interesting question.
Yes and no.
So to be honest, we always askwhat the number one challenge is
for agencies and really withoutfail new business is always the
number one challenge.
So
Harv Nagra (04:36):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (04:36):
I guess in that sense, no, the challenges
haven't changed too much.
What I would say though is it'sjust got harder.
See that you can sense that fromthe conversations we have with
agency owners and howcompetitive the industry as is
right now, there are so manyagencies out there that it makes
it incredibly tough todifferentiate, incredibly tough
(05:00):
to compete on price and becompetitive because there are
always cheaper options outthere, and that is making it so,
so difficult to, yeah, tocompete and to win work.
Harv Nagra (05:12):
Absolutely.
Um, just went live with anepisode today where that was the
theme that, there's so muchcompetition out there and then
you've got the pressure of AIand what, how that's gonna
change The industry as well.
So I'm sure some of that stuffwill be coming out in your
research that we'll be talkingabout today.
But, before we dive in, didanything jump out to you as like
the most surprising thing thatyou saw in this year's results?
Rory Spence (05:33):
surprising is probably not the right word for
it, but I, I, I'd say quiteshocking, to be honest with you,
was, was the key word.
When we started getting thisanalysis back from all of these
agencies that had kindly takenpart in the survey, we knew that
2024.
Was immensely tough, Right.
We're well connected withagencies.
We've got a number of agencyclients and so we could see
(05:55):
firsthand that it was difficult,but just how difficult it was.
I don't think we werenecessarily expecting.
you know, we saw drops inprofitability, drops in cash
levels, drops in growth rates.
Increases in redundanciesfrankly, it was a pretty brutal
year.
So, it's not all doom and gloom.
There are plenty ofopportunities out there for
(06:16):
agencies going into 2025 and,and reasons to be positive, I
think.
But in terms of reflecting on2024, yeah, just, just a really
brutal year.
Harv Nagra (06:26):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So, from our chat, earlier Iunderstand that several
interesting trends or, or, orthemes emerged and, some
opportunities that you saw.
So excited to get into some ofthat stuff.
would love for you to introducethe first, and, and let's, let's
hear about
Rory Spence (06:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, one of the things that wesaw from the report was, we
always ask people what theirnumber one focus is for their
agency.
when we asked this last year.
building an asset was numberone, and then
Harv Nagra (06:55):
Hmm,
Rory Spence (06:55):
the second was operating with purpose, but they
were quite close.
There was actually not a hugegap between those people that
were trying to build an, anasset to ultimately sell, and
those that were just trying todo the right thing and, and
operate with clear purpose.
Now, when we asked that thisyear, that gap broadened
massively.
There was a huge increaseactually, and a shift to
agencies saying, you know what?
(07:16):
We are ready to exit thebusiness now.
And we're building somethingthat we are looking to to
proactively sell.
And I think unfortunately, thatis off the back of such a brutal
year and a real hit on people'senergy levels and saying,
actually enough's enough, like Iwant out of this, which I.
We know is tough because ofcourse the worst time to sell a
(07:37):
business is when you reallywanna sell it.
And the best time to sell abusiness is when you have no
interest.
And why would I sell this?
This is a cash cow.
So it is challenging in thatrespect.
But to get to your question andpoint Harv around opportunities,
there is a huge opportunitythere now for agencies who are
either looking to buy or who are
Harv Nagra (07:58):
Yeah.
looking
Rory Spence (07:59):
to exit.
We're gonna see an increasethere.
Harv Nagra (08:01):
that number was 58%, wasn't it?
agency owners looking to sayselling their business was their
number one priority.
that definitely surprised mewhen I read that.
That is, that was quite hugeactually.
So super, super interesting.
I was reading that it was upfrom 44% a couple years ago,
which
Rory Spence (08:18):
Exactly that from, from the year before.
Yeah, exactly.
So quite, quite a big jump and,and most of those percentages
that jumped onto that haddropped off that I'm building
something with purpose
Harv Nagra (08:28):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (08:28):
do that.
so.
A really, you know, interestingstep that we are starting to
talk to our clients about rightnow at Wow.
Is actually thinking about,well, you know what?
If you are thinking aboutselling your business, start
doing that thinking really,really smartly.
Now actually think about if youwere to sell your agency, what
(08:49):
would be some of the key thingsthat a buyer would really value,
and what would be some of thepotential challenges that would
prevent a sale or that wouldreduce the value of, of your
agency?
And a really smart way to lookat that quite simply is if you
bought your own agency today,What would be some of the key
areas?
How would you analyze thosedifferent things?
Thinking about, for example,what is your client portfolio,
(09:13):
how healthy is that?
How much of them maybe, are onretained contracts?
For example, thinking about yourteam as well, and particularly
some of the key people withinyour team, you know, actually,
like, are they assets?
Have you got the right people inthe right places within your
team?
And just think there's afantastic opportunity to really
look internally at your businessand go,
Harv Nagra (09:35):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (09:35):
if II bought my business tomorrow, what would be
the areas that would bepositives and what would be the
areas that are negatives?
And then what can you go and doabout that?
Because it's gonna be the bestway to ultimately prepare for a
sale for those 58% that arethinking of doing that.
Harv Nagra (09:52):
Absolutely.
And you know, audience for ourpodcast here is operations
Leaders and it's all aboutbuilding a mature, efficient
agency.
And you're, you're absolutelyright.
In order to get into thatposition to be able to sell, you
want it to be running really,really well, to be attractive to
a buyer.
So.
Really good
Rory Spence (10:09):
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (10:09):
so why don't we go into the next, next trend sorry,
what should I call them?
stats
Rory Spence (10:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Like, Yeah.
The next opportunity, so a,again, in terms of reflecting on
the stats from 2024, we, we sawprofitability was down again.
So, when we talk aboutprofitability usually at Wow
here, we're talking about grossprofit, and we've got a very
specific way that we wouldrecommend you track your gross
profit to keep it to headlinestoday in the for the sake of
(10:38):
this podcast, it is using yourbillable staff salaries or
freelance costs in your grossprofit calculation.
Harv Nagra (10:47):
Okay.
Rory Spence (10:47):
taking your sales, your revenue, and then
subtracting the cost of the teamthat are delivering on that
work, that's gonna give you yourgross profit.
Okay.
So, if you are listening to thisand that's gone over your head
and you're really, interested inthis, but confused, like, give
me a shout and I'm really happyto go through this process, but
(11:08):
that is how Wow would recommendyou calculate your gross profit
margin, and by using thatformula.
We know that the top formingagencies are exceeding 50% gross
profit margin when using thatcalculation, that methodology,
Harv Nagra (11:25):
Okay.
Rory Spence (11:25):
we know that last year the average agency for over
a million pound turnover was at40%.
This year, that dropped again to39%, so might only be down by
1%, but it's going in the wrongdirection because really we
should be going up.
40% was already too low, we'vegotta be getting back to that
50% mark.
Harv Nagra (11:45):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (11:46):
Now, why is it smart to track gross profit in
that way?
Well, first of all, so you canbenchmark yourself and know
where you are at compared tothese stats, so that's really
useful.
But B, it's gonna give you areally clear indication as to
why your profitability is up orout, So what I mean by that is
if you only ever looked at youroperating profit, well frankly,
(12:07):
what's gonna impact that is youroverheads.
Harv Nagra (12:10):
Right.
Rory Spence (12:10):
should be a straightforward task to review
of ads, right?
And be able to see where am Ipotentially overspending.
And there's limitedopportunities to do too much
there anyway.
When looking at gross profit inthis way, you can see, am I
charging enough?
Are the team actually like, arethey utilized fully?
do I potentially have too muchstaff cost.
(12:31):
And is that because either I'vegot too many staff or I've got
too many senior staff that areon high salaries and my ratio of
kind of senior to junior membersisn't quite Right.
am I overdelivering for example?
You know, it's gonna give youclues as to what's causing
potentially a low gross profitor what's causing hopefully a
(12:51):
high gross profit margin.
Harv Nagra (12:53):
Right.
Super interesting.
So, one thing I was gonna askyou on that is that I feel like
that does differ from thestandard definition of gross
profit, if I'm not mistakennormally.
Rory Spence (13:03):
No, great question.
So you are absolutely Right.
if you are working with anaccountant and they say, no, no,
your gross profit should includethat, it should cost, it should
only include direct costs ofsales, which might be some
software costs, for example,that the client is buying.
they wouldn't be technicallyincorrect for the record, I'm
not suggesting that thataccountant doesn't know what
(13:24):
they're doing.
What I'm saying is that isn'tgoing to give you meaningful
information,
Harv Nagra (13:28):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (13:29):
okay?
So we at Wow, are all aboutgiving you data and insights
that will allow you to analyzethe performance of your business
and make improvements.
And by tracking it this way,you're going to get better data
and you're gonna be able to makebetter decisions to build a
better business.
So
Harv Nagra (13:45):
Sure.
Rory Spence (13:46):
why we recommend tracking gross profit in that
way.
Harv Nagra (13:50):
That makes sense.
So, Rory, with regards toprofitability, is there an
opportunity there as well?
And, and can you shed some lighton what agencies could be doing
Rory Spence (13:59):
100% massive opportunity here.
So we've just seen and andshared that gross profit margins
are down again.
And if I was running an agencyright now, I'd absolutely be
looking really in detail at whatlevel I'm at right now, what is
my overall gross profit, butthen how detailed can you get
with this as well?
Harv Nagra (14:18):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (14:19):
Can you look at your gross profit by department?
Can you look at your grossprofit, by service line, or that
might be the same thing.
Can you look at, even grossprofit by individual?
For example, can you look atgross profit by client?
there's a whole load of realdetailed data that you can go to
here to see quite simply, whereis your agency making money and
(14:41):
where is your agency not makingmoney?
And you can then make reallysmart decisions.
one example of this might bethat you look and go, well, this
particular service that weprovide in our agency actually
isn't highly profitable, it's atbelow
Harv Nagra (14:58):
Right.
Rory Spence (14:58):
it's down at 40 or 30%.
But you might say, well, that'sthe thing that gets clients in
the door.
That's how they find us.
So we need to offer that.
Now of course there might besomething you can do to make
that more profitable, but whatyou might also look at is go,
well, yeah, that one is downthere, but when we then provide
(15:19):
this service for clients.
Our margins are up at 60, 70%.
So this is our premium service.
Now, what does that tell you?
Hopefully you can figure thisout.
But what it tells you is youneed to be speaking to every
single client that buys serviceA from you, they also need to be
buying service B from you.
(15:39):
'cause this is where you makeyour money.
This is where the margins comefrom.
Harv Nagra (15:43):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (15:43):
So that's just one example of where getting this
really detailed information canhelp you to make smart
decisions.
It will also enable you to lookin detail at your pricing.
Are you being paid what you areworth?
And if you can get obsessedaround your profit margins on a
gross profit basis, that willtake over from revenue.
(16:04):
Right?
We've always, we've always beeningrained to be obsessed about
turnover and revenue.
Right?
But believe me, you will startforgetting about that when you
get obsessed about gross profitand this is the number that
should really matter.
Harv Nagra (16:18):
It matters
Rory Spence (16:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
so I'm sure you see this all thetime as well, right?
Harv?
Harv Nagra (16:23):
Absolutely.
And I think some agencies, you,you're right, get very obsessed,
especially in the earlier stagesof maturity, about turnover, but
ultimately that can lead to,problems if that's all you're
focused on.
And it's like leaky bucket,
Rory Spence (16:38):
exactly right.
Harv Nagra (16:39):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (16:39):
A hundred percent.
I, I, I'm a big believer,there's only one thing worse
than not winning, work and, andthat's winning unprofitable
work.
So actually if, if we areobsessed about revenue, there's
a risk that we will winunprofitable work because we're
just trying to bring stuff in,at the top end.
If we can get obsessed aboutgross profit to the point where
(17:01):
we start saying no to projectsbecause they are not profitable
for us or not profitable enough,that's a brilliant place to be.
That is more important.
so yeah, get really, reallydetailed around this.
Look at how much it is costingyou to deliver work and then how
much you are actually making asa result of that.
And if there's a disparitythere, like what can you do
(17:23):
about it?
That's the big opportunity.
When it comes to profit, Ithink.
Harv Nagra (17:28):
And a really nice reminder Rory as well, that you
need to be tracking all thisstuff and being able to report
on it as well.
And that's so important.
I, I'm wondering, like, I, Idon't know if you can comment on
when, agencies are coming toyourselves and starting to get
involved, whether you, you haveto take them on that journey of
maturity and, and get them to aplace where they can see and
(17:48):
measure all of that stuff.
Or if you think generally,people are doing a decent job?
Rory Spence (17:53):
Such a great question, Harv.
So a lot of the agencies we willwork with, they're all over a
million pound turnover.
So they'll often come to us aslike their second accountants.
They've worked with anaccountancy firm that has got
them so far and they've done afantastic job of filing their
accounts and doing their taxesand keeping them compliant.
And then as you get to that sortof million pound ish mark, you
(18:15):
realize I need this sort ofdata, the stuff we're talking
about Right now.
Actually that accountancy firmmaybe are not best positioned to
do that.
So that is often, mostfrequently where Wow, then comes
in and we start working withpeople in that scenario.
And so they don't have thisdata, they don't have these,
these reports set up,
Harv Nagra (18:34):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (18:35):
is the number one role for us straight away.
First two, three months.
Let's get you set up on this andlet's get you educated on this.
Let's talk through why weshould.
Change your p and l layout tofrom how it is at the moment to,
to this, approach.
Let's start looking at grossprofit in detail and let's do
that analysis of what your mostprofitable offerings are, what
(18:57):
your most profitable clientsare, what are the clues there,
what's causing them to be highlyprofitable?
Harv Nagra (19:02):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (19:03):
so there is absolutely this really exciting.
2, 3, 4 month periods with allnew clients that we work with,
where we go through this kind ofeducation piece and we get them
harnessed with this data wherethese opportunities are like,
it's just suddenly appear out ofnowhere.
It becomes obvious, ah, if Ipulled this lever over here,
(19:25):
it's gonna make a big differenceto my gross profit margin, which
has a knock on effect to myoperating profit as well.
Harv Nagra (19:32):
Such an important part of the journey of maturity.
Alright, so let's go into the,the next kind of opportunity.
Rory Spence (19:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the next opportunity weare seeing, and I, I wanna
caveat this with, I'm certainlyno expert on AI.
But absolutely AI is, is theopportunity ahead in 2025.
Harv Nagra (19:52):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (19:52):
what was really interesting is we asked agency
owners how they felt about AI acouple of years ago in our
BenchPress survey from 2023, Ibelieve.
And some said we see this as alittle bit of a threat.
A lot said we are not currentlyusing it.
well now it's very different.
The results from 2025 surveysaid 95% of agencies are using
(20:16):
AI in their agency, and most ofthem are using it in a client
facing capacity as well, which Ithink is hugely, encouraging and
and exciting at what thoseopportunities are now.
personally I have a nervousnessaround this.
So I was at an event that we ranin London very recently, and a
(20:39):
conversation sparked up, wherepeople said, ah, there, there,
there was a question asked, andthey said there, I'm curious
when using AI and it making iteasier to deliver on projects
and you are, you are able tosave time, do you pass that cost
saving onto the client?
Harv Nagra (20:59):
I've heard that question as well, for, for a
couple years at this point now,so, but I'll let you
Rory Spence (21:04):
Harv.
Like I thought, oh, this poorperson, okay, well let's help
them.
Harv Nagra (21:10):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (21:10):
to my shock, several other people around the
room piped up, said, yeah, yeah.
I'm interested about this aswell.
And, and Harv, you just alludedto it as well, you've heard this
a lot over the years, but I'mshocked because that makes no
sense.
Harv Nagra (21:24):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (21:24):
If as an agency you're investing your time and
money in AI tools that can makeyou more efficient in delivering
client work, however you arethen passing that time saving
and cost saving onto the client.
What is the point in youinvesting in it in the first
time?
If we use really simple termshere, if you are operating at an
(21:46):
hourly rate of a hundred poundsand you've got 10 hours to sell,
you've got a thousand pounds oftime there.
Now if you've just suddenly usedan AI tool and this thing has
only taken you four hours, butyou're now only gonna charge 400
pound for it because it's fourhours at a hundred pound, you
still need to fill those othersix hours in order to make the
(22:08):
same amount of money as youwould've done before.
So.
I passionately feel that we needto be smart with how we are
positioning our use of ai.
And if you, as the agency areinvesting in this tech to
streamline your own processesand how you deliver work for
clients, I'm not suggesting youkeep a hundred percent of that
(22:31):
benefit, but Absolutely youshould be rewarded for your
efficiency, because otherwise,we are only helping the client
and we're doing that for free.
It makes absolutely no sense.
So.
Harv Nagra (22:43):
Yeah, I, I, I think you're right.
And I think maybe part of theproblem is not knowing how to,
defend yourself in that argumentWhen a client says, oh, your X
times more efficient, shouldn'tyou be passing on the savings?
So just making sure that you'reable to challenge that and say,
well, we're able to do so muchmore now, and you're getting so
much more value out of the workwe're doing, and be prepared to
(23:03):
answer
Rory Spence (23:04):
Exactly right, and I think there's an excellent
quote.
Which I wish I could rememberword for word, but I can't.
About how, if you know theanswer to a question that a
client has asked, and you'veonly needed 10 minutes to figure
it out and give them the answer,you shouldn't be rewarded for
the 10 minutes it took you tofind the answer.
you should be rewarded for theyears it took you.
Harv Nagra (23:26):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (23:26):
Are the years of experience and training to get
to this point where you knewthat answer within 10 minutes,
and I think this is the same.
So you shouldn't be punishedbecause you've found a way to
deliver this work quicker.
And I think we need to be reallysmart in how we position that to
clients as well, anyway.
yes, we need new terms andconditions and the like that
(23:48):
need to go out to clients to saythat you are using ai, to handle
their data and things like that.
And there's all this legalstuff, which clearly I'm no
expert on.
So yes, you need to betransparent in that you are
using AI in that sense, but weneed to be smart in terms of how
we position the use of it, thatyou are not just, Sitting and
putting your feet up while therobots, deliver everything
(24:09):
basically.
Harv Nagra (24:09):
Alright, Rory, so let's talk about the next kind
of opportunity, that came out inyour research.
Rory Spence (24:14):
Yeah.
The, the fourth big opportunitythat, that we've identified,
having digested all of the datais, that actually like
confidence really matters.
So every year in this BenchPresssurvey, we ask agency owners how
they're feeling on a scale ofzero to a hundred, if you are 50
or neutral.
(24:34):
If you are less than 50, you arenot feeling good about the year
ahead.
Harv Nagra (24:39):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (24:39):
more than 50, you are feeling positive about the
year ahead.
It's been really interesting tosee how that's gone up and down
over the years.
And agency owners can alwayssense what is coming because
when that is up, we have goodyears and when that's down we
have bad years.
But what was really interestingis we actually analyzed those
agencies that took part lastyear
Harv Nagra (25:01):
Right.
Rory Spence (25:01):
and had high confidence scores.
Harv Nagra (25:04):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (25:04):
Considerably outperformedd those that had
lower confidence scores, lowerthan 70, in terms of their
growth, their profitability overthe year ahead, that then that
then happened.
And so I know you could arguethat, well, of, of course if you
are more confident it's'causeyou think you're having a good
year and then you have had agood year.
But actually I think it's areally interesting way to look
(25:26):
at it to say, well, actually,confidence does really matter.
If you've got confidence in yourbusiness, positive things will
happen as a result, and you aremore likely to get great
results.
And so I think there are thingsthat we can all do as leaders in
the business to build thatconfidence ourselves, but also
build a confident team around usand actually build a really
(25:49):
great mindset in the business ofthere are these opportunities
ahead.
Yes, it's been really tough.
It's been a brutal year foragencies, but there are all
these opportunities and how dowe go and tackle those?
So I think some things that canwork really well in terms of
building that confidence.
One, get really thorough withlike targets.
(26:11):
big believer, weekly targets isa great way to do this, right?
And focus on the controllables,right?
There's a bunch of stuff youcan't control as an agency
owner, particularly on the salesfront, right?
Harv Nagra (26:23):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (26:24):
a lot of business owners, agency owners will be
doing the new businessthemselves.
You can't force someone to signa contract, right?
You can't force a proposal outthe door.
But what can you do?
You can control.
How many LinkedIn messagesyou're sending in a week.
You can control how many eventsyou're attending in a month.
You can control to a reasonabledegree, how many speaking gigs
(26:46):
you are maybe doing over thecourse of a year.
Harv Nagra (26:49):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (26:50):
get really hyperfocused around that.
And I'd encourage you to buildweekly targets around that.
Right.
Monthly.
There's only 12 of those in ayear
Harv Nagra (26:57):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (26:58):
and actually once one is gone, you're almost 10%
of the way through the year.
Like
Harv Nagra (27:03):
Yeah.
Rory Spence (27:03):
three have gone, you're 25% of the way through
the year.
So imagine you have three badmonths in a row kind of, it only
takes you that long to mayberealize and analyze it and go,
we were behind where we neededto be.
It's too late.
You've lost 25% of the year.
If you put that into weeks,three weeks go by
Harv Nagra (27:23):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (27:24):
you, you're nowhere near even you.
Can't do the maths frankly, butyou're about 5% of the way
through the year.
So you can make changes reallyquickly that are gonna get
results, get really focusedaround weekly targets.
It's a great way to buildmomentum and therefore to build
confidence for yourself as theleader, but also, within your
team as well.
(27:44):
So that's one thing that I lovethat can just really help to
bring a bit of energy, bring abit of confidence back.
The other is like celebratingthese wins, right?
Celebrate even the little wins.
We don't need to wait any longerto win a hundred K deals in
order to celebrate with theteam.
Harv Nagra (28:02):
Mm,
Rory Spence (28:03):
make this a daily ritual, something that happens
all the time.
Harv Nagra (28:07):
so important.
Rory Spence (28:08):
do you have any tips or, uh, you know, we do
something at wow, Harv thatworks really well.
Do you have any tips in terms ofhow to sort of celebrate those?
Harv Nagra (28:16):
when you're busy, it's so easy to forget to do
that, and, and projectssometimes either stretch on
forever in an agency and feellike they never end, or when
they do end, there's just like10 more that need your
attention.
So taking the time is easy toforget.
one thing I think that worksreally well is having like a
celebration channel in, in
Rory Spence (28:35):
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (28:35):
you shout out a new pitch win or project close or,
or whatever, big milestone orlaunch or web launch, whatever
it is.
I, I think that's superimportant.
And of course, if you can takeyour team out for, for drinks or
a lunch or something like that,that's even better.
What, what kind of, uh, kinds ofthings do you hear
Rory Spence (28:52):
Totally agree.
Ah, look, both of those things,absolutely.
We've got a celebration channelat Wow as well.
We call it our Wow Storieschannel.
And even as simple as clientemails to say.
Thank you so much.
You're a lifesaver.
or, whatever it might be.
It could be the smallest thing.
Someone will screen grab that,stick it in that channel and go,
Hey, go Harv, you know, good foryou.
(29:14):
and that's, that's amazing.
We use Office Vibe, which is abrilliant piece of software that
allows us to track, EmployeeNPS, there's a load of benefits
to doing that, and maybe that'sa conversation for another day.
But within Office Vibe, there'sa great feature called Good
Vibes where you can sendsomeone, it's like a postcard to
be like, Hey, I admire yourleadership.
(29:34):
And I could go, oh, I'm gonnasend that to Harv with a little
message.
And it just happens privately.
But there's nothing better thanwhen you get that email and, the
email subject is, you receivesome good vibes.
you are like, and there's thissuspense.
Who's it from?
What is it?
And it's just a lovely feeling.
And so we actively encouragethat.
And I think there's a bunch ofstuff you can do, but if you can
(29:56):
get really obsessed around thisand get the team doing this, it
doesn't have to come from theleaders.
Everyone can do this.
Uh, that's where
Harv Nagra (30:03):
It builds like really positive kind of
sentiment in the team and giveseveryone that energy.
But you know, what you weresaying about confidence, I think
it's also important to rememberthat like, it doesn't come from
nothing, right?
It, it takes effort.
Like you're saying, good habitsgive you confidence when you're,
you've got that sales funnelrunning efficiently.
When you've got good operationaland financial foundations in
(30:24):
your business, you can naturallybe confident because you have
some visibility of where you'regonna be going and what you're,
how you're meant to be runningyour business and all that kind
of stuff.
So all the more reason to makesure your foundations are in
place.
You have good habits in place.
Rory Spence (30:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, what brings confidenceat the end of the day?
It, well, confidence comes fromthe predictability that the
times ahead are really good.
that's, that's why we'reconfident.
We feel confident.
'cause we're like, yeah, nextweek's gonna be great.
Next month's gonna be great.
Next quarter's looking good.
if you don't have thatpredictability.
(31:01):
If it isn't clear what resultsyou're gonna get, if you don't
have leading indicators that aregiving you insight into future
performance, then no wonder youare not gonna be feeling
confident.
It may well end up that thingsgo well.
Harv Nagra (31:16):
Right.
Rory Spence (31:16):
It doesn't mean you are, you are gonna fail if you
don't have these things, but it,
Harv Nagra (31:20):
Mm-hmm.
Rory Spence (31:20):
have the insight, how can you have the confidence
to go, Harv, I know that themonth ahead is gonna be really
positive for these reasons.
We're doing all the rightthings.
Harv Nagra (31:29):
Yeah.
You live in anxiety and it's abit of a surprise the way things
turn out rather than kind of acalculated journey.
Really, really good point.
Excellent, Rory.
So that's really interestinghearing about some of the
opportunities that you've seenand kind of inspires us.
So what is next for BenchPress?
Rory Spence (31:47):
Yeah.
great question.
So this is just report one ofthree that we're gonna be
releasing in 2025.
so this is what we call ourState of the Agency Nation
Report, which you can nowdownload for free.
what's coming next is in Maywe're gonna release our people
and salaries report.
So there'll be a bit in therearound recruitment, around
(32:08):
retention, the roles that peoplehave within agencies and also
salaries, which is gonna be thefirst, which is exciting.
and then in July we're gonna bereleasing, our agency milestones
report, which is gonna giveinsight into, what size was the
business when they first hired asalesperson, or how long had the
(32:29):
business been running when theywon their first a hundred K
deal, for example.
Harv Nagra (32:32):
Right.
Rory Spence (32:33):
So, a little bit around kind of timings and what
you could achieve at differentsizes of agency
Harv Nagra (32:39):
Super interesting.
Is that July
Rory Spence (32:40):
July That one is coming out.
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (32:42):
And you're calling it the agency Milestones?
Is,
Rory Spence (32:44):
that's it?
Harv Nagra (32:45):
Nice.
do you already have your handson that data and, anything
interesting, that you can
Rory Spence (32:50):
I don't have, really my hands on the data yet.
so I don't know what is coming.
but I'm excited to see.
I'm really curious to see thebalance between senior and
mid-level and junior staffwithin an agency.
And see how that's structured.
I think that's gonna be reallyfascinating.
(33:11):
really intrigued to see thesalaries because we've never
done that before and it's beenrequested countless time.
So we are doing
Harv Nagra (33:19):
Right.
Rory Spence (33:20):
the people want, which is gonna be exciting.
the agency milestones report.
I'm really fascinated to seewhen people hire salespeople
Harv Nagra (33:30):
Yep.
Rory Spence (33:31):
when people hire marketing people, because of
course we mentioned this earlierin the podcast, but the number
one challenge for agencies isalways new business without
fail.
So it'd be really fascinating.
I know, and I'm sure you'veheard this countless times,
Harv, that it's difficult tohire new business people if
you're an agency.
(33:51):
And often it has to be theagency owner that is delivering
that work.
And so I am fascinated to seewhat size does that maybe
happen, how many people havedone that or not done that?
And I think some interestinginsights will come out of that.
Harv Nagra (34:06):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Similar to ops folks coming intoagencies as well.
It often comes a little bit toolate, later than it should be.
And, might pay dividends if, ifit wasn't always so, so late in
the game.
But yeah, really, reallyinterested seeing that.
so we're coming up to the end ofour discussion.
can you tell us before we go alittle bit more about what the
(34:28):
Wow Company does?
Rory Spence (34:29):
Absolutely.
So the Wow Company is anaccountancy firm that works with
agencies and consultancies overa million pound turnover.
Harv Nagra (34:37):
Okay.
Rory Spence (34:37):
So yes, we will do all of the standard things you'd
expect an accountancy firm todo, but
Harv Nagra (34:42):
Hmm.
Rory Spence (34:43):
we also do more than that.
We allow you to outsource yourfinances to us.
So a lot of our clients don'thave financial controllers,
finance managers in theirbusiness because we'll do all of
that for them, which is a hugeperk.
But we also deliver strategicadvice to those agencies where
we work with so many and we'vegot our BenchPress data.
We're able to really see this iswhat makes agencies tick.
(35:06):
This is what the top performingagencies are doing and how can
you do that?
What are some of the levers thatyou can pull and how can we get
you the insights and the data tomake those decisions?
Harv Nagra (35:18):
Excellent.
That sounds really, reallygreat.
So if people want to learn moreabout the business and get in
touch with yourself or yourteam, where where can they reach
out?
Rory Spence (35:26):
Yeah, so come to our website, the wow
company.com.
come to my LinkedIn and drop mea message because honestly, I
love chatting to agency ownersand leaders and hearing what
challenges you have and howyou're tackling them.
And.
I love that because I learn morethan anybody else.
I think during that process.
(35:46):
I just love chat to people,hearing what they're up to.
So if you are listening to thisand you fancy reaching out to
have a chat, let's grab avirtual coffee, and I would love
to do that.
Harv Nagra (35:56):
Amazing.
We'll put a link to your websiteand your LinkedIn in the show
notes, so please do go checkthat out.
Rory, it's been an absolutepleasure.
I'm really excited to see themore detailed report come out.
by the time people hear thisconversation, that will be out.
So excited to see all theheadlines and dive into it and
see what we can learn.
Thanks again for coming on
Rory Spence (36:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Harv.
I've loved it.
Hi everyone.
So while the past few years havebeen tough, as Rory pointed out
in today's chat, there's plentyof opportunities for us to take
advantage of and when businessis slower, it's our jobs as
operations leaders to figure outwhere we can make things leaner
and more efficient to ensure weremain profitable.
(36:38):
By the time you hear thisepisode, BenchPress will be
available to download.
So go to the wowcompany.com/BenchPress to get a
copy of the report and see allof the results for yourself.
Remember, we send a biweeklynewsletter with takeaways from
the podcast conversations, soyou have something to reference
in your inbox.
(36:58):
Go scoro.com/podcast.
Scroll down and you'll see thenewsletter sign up form.
And finally, if you enjoy thehandbook, there's three things
you can do right now.
Rate the podcast on Apple orSpotify.
Share the episode with a friendor colleague and connect with me
on LinkedIn and join theconversation when I post about
(37:19):
each episode.
I'll be back with the nextepisode soon.
Thanks so much.
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