August 27, 2024 • 48 mins
Winning pitches is tough.
Ghosting has become a common challenge, and even when you win, clients may be commissioning smaller pieces of the project rather than the full program.
But that’s only part of the struggle - crafting pitch decks takes a lot of time and energy. Surely there’s a better way than packing slides with your best creative ideas.
In this episode we tackle these challenges and introduce a strategic approach to pitching. The focus shifts from pitching tactics to showcasing value and ROI.
Joining us is Freia Muehlenbein, an agency growth consultant and owner of Be Reyt Consultancy. With over 15 years of experience in agency operations, Freia is an expert in the sales and pitch process, known for closing large deals.
Freia shares practical advice on:
- Developing a strong qualification process to truly understand your client's needs
- The concept of a war room and how it helps in crafting effective strategies
- Why prioritizing financials and ROI is more important than focusing on tactics
Follow Freia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/freiamuehlenbein/
Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/
Sign up for Harv's webinar with Agency Hackers on productivity hacks taking place Thursday 19th September 2024: https://bit.ly/thehandbook24
Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.
This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harv (00:32):
Hi all, welcome back to the show.
Before we get started, I wantedto mention that I'll be taking
part in a webinar with AgencyHackers on Thursday, 19th
September 2024.
It's all about productivity inthe workspace.
I'll be sharing some tips thatI've seen work really well to
maximize a team's ability to dofocus work and get into flow.
(00:53):
I would love to see you there,so please sign up for that and
get it in your calendars.
Again, that's on Thursday, 19thSeptember, 2024.
You can sign up for free atbit.ly/thehandbook24.
Again, that'sbit.ly/thehandbook24.
(01:15):
We'll put a link to that in theepisode notes as well, but do
sign up.
Now, let's get back to the show.
It's been a tough couple ofyears in the agency space.
When sharing notes at variousagency meetups, it's clear that
a lot of agencies are stillfacing a real struggle with
winning business this year.
Getting sign-off from clients istaking a lot longer than it used
(01:35):
to, with deals lingering in thepipeline.
Projects end up getting splitinto multiple small commissions,
rather than kicking off the fullprogram.
And ghosting is sadly becomingmore and more common.
After you've spent countlesshours delivering and potentially
even winning a pitch, not havingthat turn into a project that
you can invoice really stings.
(01:56):
And on the topic of pitching,I've got a laundry list of
challenges and frustrations thatI've lived through.
I was going to list them all inthe intro, but I might as well
save them to put to our guestand see if she can help heal
some of my past traumas.
But more seriously, when I wasdigital director many years ago,
I found pitches exhausting.
And then as ops director, Ifound myself worrying about how
(02:17):
much unpaid time we werespending on pitches, eating up
studio time, and trying tooptimize our win rate.
It's tricky, and you might feellike you have no choice but to
go down the pitch route if youwant to bring in the work.
So when you are investing somuch time and effort, how can
you maximize your ROI?
That's the topic we're tacklingin today's episode.
(02:39):
Giving Ops leaders some ideasthat you can take back to your
own agency to make sure thatyou're maximizing your chances
of winning.
Our guest today is FreiaMuehlenbein.
Freia is an agency growthconsultant and owner of Be Reyt
Consultancy.
Freia has over 15 years ofexperience in agency operations.
She previously worked at SearchLaboratory, one of the UK's top
(03:01):
digital marketing agencies.
She grew her own digital contentand online PR department from
zero to a hundred people overseven years.
For another four years, sheworked with the board of
directors to lead the agencystrategy and change programs,
working across all departmentsto deliver short and long term
strategic goals.
One of her key initiatives wasto revamp their sales and pitch
(03:24):
process completely, aiming tosign larger integrated
contracts.
Freia will share some of thoselearnings with us today.
In the past few years, Freia'sdecided to take what she's
learned and help other agenciesvia her consultancy, sharing
expertise across the spectrum onsales, marketing, ops, and
client services.
(03:44):
She's done workshops andmasterclasses with Agency
Hackers, Agency Collective,BIMA, The WOW Company, and loads
more.
And on a personal note, Freia'sbeen so gracious with me.
When I was dipping my toe intoconsulting, but mostly in house
still, we had the opportunity toexchange ideas over a call and
she introduced me to loads ofgreat people in the agency
operations space, some of whohave already been on the
(04:07):
podcast.
I'm really excited for you tohear this conversation, so let's
get into it.
Freia, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
With Ops folks, I love hearingabout their journey into
operations to begin with.
So I was wondering if we couldstart there and you could tell
us a bit about your story.
Freia (04:25):
Yeah, sure.
by accident, I think like mostof us, I actually came to the UK
from Germany in 2008.
And after I've graduated here,got a role in a digital
marketing agency doing somethingcompletely different.
It used to be called off pageSEO, so kind of content
marketing, online PR.
And that team grew so quicklythat really after a couple of
(04:47):
months working there as agraduate, I had to start
managing a team, ofinternational people, people
from all over the world, peoplefrom within the UK.
And that team grew from justbeing me to a hundred people
after a couple of years.
So I think ops was justsomething I had to step into,
not necessarily by choice or byapplying for that role, but
because the team exploded and wehad to introduce processes, ways
(05:12):
of working, better ways of doingthings.
So I just fell into it.
Like I think a lot of us do.
Harv (05:18):
It almost sounds like it was, quite an accelerated path.
You, you just had to kind ofdive straight into a lot of
these challenges based on howthe agency was growing.
Freia (05:28):
Yeah, exactly.
And when you haven't been in arole like this before, you just
kind of, you kind of make it up,but you learn from others, I was
lucky I had good, you know,people around me, but there
wasn't a community like there istoday of ops people, you know,
ops networks, ops Slackchannels, conferences, it wasn't
necessarily a thing, so I thinknow if you get into ops, you
(05:50):
have many more choices andopportunities to learn from
others.
I think I was just really makingit up, but really enjoying it.
So I, I stayed in ops for avery, very long time before I
moved into more kind of of astrategic role with the board of
directors.
But yeah, it's, yeah, just, Justby accident, really?
Harv (06:07):
And so what made you decide to branch out on your own
and start Be Reyt?
And where does the name comefrom?
Freia (06:14):
So Be Reyt, if you say it in Yorkshire, which is where I'm
based, Be Ryte,
Harv (06:17):
Hmm.
Freia (06:18):
basically just an expression of it will be okay.
I've always loved ever sinceI've moved here from, from
Germany.
So I gave my company that name,but the idea of branching out,
came from kind of personallifestyle changes and wanting to
be self employed, also I'veworked with consultants myself
when I was agency side hmm.
and the learning curve ofworking with a consultant for
(06:39):
just a couple of days was somuch bigger than just being in
the agency for a whole year.
So I just really loved the ideaof doing something that's kind
of equally rewarding for lots ofdifferent agencies.
So at some point it took me afew years to be honest, to brave
it.
but, like I said earlier, youknow, the ops community is
great, but the agency consultantcommunity in general is
(07:01):
fantastic and really supportive.
So it was a really easy thing toget into.
and now I do what I used to do,but for lots of different
people.
So it's, it's great and varied.
Harv (07:10):
Amazing.
so our, our topic today is allaround the theme of pitching and
winning business.
You talk to a lot of agencies.
What kinds of things are youhearing at the moment with
regards to new business?
Freia (07:23):
Yeah, it's still very up and down, isn't it?
It's, and it's been like thisfor a while.
I feel like everyone's a bitsick of talking about it, the
ups and downs, I think peoplewant to know how do we get out
of it.
But I think until the market andthe general kind of environment
changes, it's hard to give youthe magic bullet that just
changes everything.
I think, definitely what I'mseeing is ghosting is happening
(07:43):
a lot more.
We need to be much more flexiblewith clients.
We can't force them into ournormal kind of contractual
agreements anymore.
a lot more focus because it'sharder to win business on
existing business.
So growing clients, betteraccount management, and also
looking kind of inwards intoprocesses, operations,
utilization, efficiencies,profitability, because new biz
(08:06):
is, is essentially revenue andrevenue comes from lots of
different places.
And I think we historically haveput all of our eggs in one
basket to say, we need newbusiness.
Harv (08:15):
Yeah.
Freia (08:15):
And now, because that's harder, we're looking much more
inward into what, what do wehave already, which is clients
and processes and efficiencies,and we can make revenue from
just making that better.
So that's you know, a lot ofwhat I do is new business, but
also the inwards looking on to,growing revenue from what we
have.
but what I also find is clientssay to me, Oh, there's a lot of
(08:36):
ghosting.
It's harder to win new business.
But at the same time, theyhaven't changed how they close
the deals that are coming in.
So there's fewer opportunitiesbut they're still doing the same
pitch.
They're not changing how they'repitching from process to deck,
to narrative, to step by stepcommunication with the prospect.
So it's a bit of a funnysituation where the client
(08:58):
thinks it's out of theircontrol.
But actually, it's not, becausetheir process isn't great, their
deck isn't great, so they're notdoing themselves any favors by
not reviewing how they pitch.
They have to pitch differentlynow because of this unique
scenario that we're in.
So I think I would always say tomy clients is yes, it's a tough
market, but what are you doingto control the opportunities
(09:22):
that are coming in and tomaximize the deals that you're
closing?
And usually the answer is notmuch.
Harv (09:28):
Okay.
I really love that, about thepitch process hasn't changed.
That's a lot of what we're goingto talk about today.
But what you mentioned, giventhe tighter market, tighter
revenues and stuff like that,having to optimize, and create
efficiencies.
I think, that is a fantasticopportunity as well.
It's forcing us to look at theway we work and improve that.
(09:48):
So it's setting the foundationsfor a stronger future for a lot
of agencies that are investingthe time to sort that out now as
a result of the market.
There's so much to talk abouthere, I've got a laundry list of
gripes with the pitchingprocess, that we're forced to
endure in agencies so, this isvery much going to be a
therapeutic session for me,where I put to you a lot of
(10:09):
things that I've seen in thepast that I've really kind of
grumbled or felt frustratedabout, so let's get into that if
that's okay with you.
the first thing is, I would haveloved if we didn't have to
pitch.
One frustration I've had in thepast is that we, even when we
had really good clientrelationships, they would ask us
to pitch and, you know, thereward for being, good was that
(10:29):
we were considered as one of thecandidates to participate in the
pitch rather than just saying,you guys are nailing it.
Here's a new project.
I'm just wondering, is there away to get past this to the
promised land where you can justbypass that pitch stage?
What are, what are your thoughtson that?
Freia (10:44):
I wouldn't say this is very common.
I think once you're in with theclient relationship, unless it's
a very vague contract where yougo from project to project where
of course, the client can thensay once the contract is done,
which is a project that is, youknow, they might want to go
around again and let you pitch,but I would say that's not very
common.
What I would say is if theclient is asking you to pitch
(11:08):
again and again, and it's tryingto pull ideas out of you, then
that probably means you're notbeing proactive enough in the
first place.
And I'm seeing this with lotsand lots of agencies where, once
the work is in, and we've, youknow, confirmed either retainer
or project.
We then just deliver that work.
So we're not kind of in thedriving seat of, you know, on a
(11:29):
quarterly basis saying we'vejumped into the data.
We've got some insights here.
We have some new findings tosay, what should you be doing
next to achieve the goals thatyou've told us you want to
achieve?
And that's, you know, that to meis client service.
That's strategic thinking, beinga trusted advisor.
If we just deliver the work,that's when clients become
(11:50):
annoying because they will thenknock on the door constantly and
say, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
How much time have we got left?
What's next?
We have an idea for a newproject or a new campaign.
Can you pitch to us how youwould do it?
And it needs to be the other wayaround.
It needs to be that we'reconstantly coming forward with
new ideas.
We should never be in thatposition of the client comes to
(12:12):
us because we haven't given themanything new or exciting or
strategic to think about or tosign off.
We want to say, here's the newidea.
Here's how much that will costyou.
And here's the ROI that we'llcreate from it.
No brainer.
Can you do it?
So we need to know what kind ofbudget they've got available for
the year.
And then we need to think, okay,we've got part of that budget
right now, but we can probablyfree up a lot more than that if
(12:35):
we constantly come up with newideas.
And it's hard because our timegets eaten up by day to day and
campaign delivery and fightingfires, but to me, client
services is strategic thinking,spotting new opportunities and
living in the data to make goodbusiness cases to our clients.
And then they kind of calm down,they trust us, they let us get
on with it and they wait for usto position your work.
(12:57):
And that's really the situationthat you want to be in.
Harv (13:00):
It's a great sales and marketing tactic to just
demonstrate value and give themsomething and then hopefully
they start seeing you as apartner rather than just
something very transactional,right?
So that's, that's really goodadvice.
I have in the past found myselfkind of stressed about the
impact of non-billable pitcheson our capacity to do billable
work.
Like in 10 years, I saw onepitch that we were paid for.
(13:23):
Is there when you do have to gothrough these pitches, a way to
strike that balance, you know,having to bring in freelancers
because your internal team is sobacked up on pitch work or vice
versa is, is just not good forthe bottom line.
Freia (13:35):
It's tricky.
There's no magic formula to say,here's how much you should spend
on a pitch.
Even if there was, I wouldassume that agencies would just
overstep that anyway, becauseyou want the new business.
Harv (13:50):
Mm hmm.
Freia (13:51):
What I'm seeing a lot is, agencies are worried about the
internal time or the costs ofthe sale or the cost of
pitching, but actually that'snot always the problem.
The problem is that the pitchtakes far too long in the first
place.
Harv (14:04):
Mm.
Freia (14:04):
I think rather than thinking, how can I recoup the
time or the money?
It, you know, costs me todeliver this pitch.
I would look at the pitchprocess and who is involved,
because 9 out of 10 times, Iwould probably say there's far
too many people involved andwe're taking far too long to
create something that couldprobably be done in half the
time.
(14:25):
Some of the reasons are, theremay not be a pitch process in
the first place, so it'schaotic.
We're pulling a ton of peopleinto the room to create
something we don't even knowwhat the client needs in the
first place.
So there's no process.
We haven't qualified properly.
So we don't know what the clientwants to see.
We don't know what the main goalis, who the key decision makers
are and what they want to see.
But I think genuinely what I seeis the deck that we come up with
(14:50):
is really heavy on tacticaldetail on the how.
Campaign mock ups, 50 slides onone creative idea, a hundred
page technical audit.
Clients really aren't interestedin that unless you're in a very
kind of tactical contract withthem.
(15:11):
I would spend more time in thebeginning.
So qualification, strategizing,data, insights, so really fully
understanding what the clientneeds, what the context is that
they're in, what can we achievefor them in the first place and
then pull the wider teams andwhen you can brief them
properly.
Because if you can say to thedelivery team, for example, we
(15:33):
have looked into this client,we've done our qualification,
we've done our scoping.
Here's the strategy they need toachieve X, Y, and Z, you and
SEO, go away and find me the topfive priorities for SEO that
will achieve exactly those goalsthat I've just told you.
Rather than you here in SEO, goaway and go blind and tell me
(15:54):
everything that's wrong withSEO.
And then you will spend days anddays and days and days on a
pitch that really only needsfive top priorities on something
that your strategic people havefound out in the beginning, but
because the pitch timelines areso short in a lot of cases, we
panic and we just pull everyonein a room without having done
(16:15):
this first bit really well, theneveryone runs around and just
picks out everything we couldpossibly do for the client.
And that's when it becomesexpensive.
That's when pitch decks getreally long.
That's when we get pitchfeedback afterwards.
So I've collected pitch feedbackfrom brands on behalf of my
clients for about six years now.
A lot of the common themes arearound, it's not strategic.
(16:39):
I don't know what I'm buying.
I know that you can do this,this, this, and this, and what's
wrong with my account.
But what am I actually buying?
And really what they want to buyis ROI.
And if we can't talk about that,and if we can't prove that,
we're going to lose the pitch.
So the first bit of the pitchprep, where we're strategic and
we're using data and we'recreating forecasts and numbers.
(16:59):
That should be the heavy bit.
The delivery teams, which iswhat the ops people are worried
about is eating into people'stime.
That should be light and thatshould be very condensed And
answering the question of howcan we deliver these strategic
goals for the client?
Harv (17:14):
Mm hmm.
Freia (17:15):
To round that up, long story short is the problem isn't
always with, the amount ofinternal time.
I think the problem is the pitchis far too complex because we're
panicking and we're not doing itproperly.
Harv (17:26):
Hmm.
I've seen it kind of go two endsof the spectrum.
One is you just kind of throweverything at the wall.
Every individual in the roomcomes up with loads of ideas,
whether it's on digital oronline advertising or whatever
it is, and creating like, brandmock ups and stuff like that.
And then that turns into thisreally heavy, long process that
you throw countless hours at.
(17:47):
Right.
And on the other end of thespectrum, as a reaction to that
in the past, like I I've triedand had discussions with my team
about whether we should go witha more method, method, I'm not
going to be able to say thatword now, mythol...
oh my gosh.
Method.
Can you, can you help me?
I think I need some...
caffeine
Freia (18:04):
Attempts to help Yup yup I know.
Harv (18:08):
That, that's the word.
So hopefully whoever's listeningcan figure that out.
Okay.
Apologies for that.
but that kind of approach, whichis also interesting, right?
You're, you're telling theclient, the how, and we're
experts, but what you're sayingis that, that also does not
necessarily work that well.
Because then it's all about, theprocess rather than talking
(18:28):
about the value they're going toget out of it.
Freia (18:31):
Yes.
So talk about, you know, how,how much detail should you put
into the creative, for example,or like a mock up or the detail
of a, of a campaign, I think youneed to find out from your
prospect first and foremost,what do they want to see?
So for example, if you'repitching to a marketing
director, like a CMO, theyprobably don't want to see that
(18:52):
because they want to know thatyou as an agency have the
ability to make them moneythrough the channels that they
are now outsourcing to you.
So this CMO doesn't need to knowthe ins and outs of what the
first campaign might look like,but they might want to see how
have you done this before?
What kind of data have you usedto tell me that you're going to
(19:13):
make me money from this?
And with a lot of creativeagencies, we go straight into
the creative.
So we want to shine with ourcreativity, but we completely
forget the financial element.
And at the end of the day,that's why people come to us.
They want to make money.
So I think find out who isactually involved in the pitch
and who you need to wow and getbuy in from.
(19:34):
Sometimes you have all thepeople in the room, you might
have a CMO who wants thenumbers, the money, the
forecasts, and maybe a head ofcreative who needs to work with
you day to day and needs to knowthat you can do what you're
saying.
And in other cases, you mightjust have the CMO and you don't
need to go as deep into thecreative.
So I think, again, it comes backto that first bit of
(19:55):
qualification, scoping,understanding stakeholders of
how deep do we need to go intoeach of these elements to win
it?
Harv (20:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, it's a way to cutthrough as well, because many of
the other agencies that youmight be pitching against might
be doing one of these twoapproaches as well, you know,
talking about the process or,you know, thousands of ideas in
creative.
And really you might be the onesthat stand out by talking about
the value and the, the ROI thatyou're going to be generating.
(20:25):
So it's a really great way tocut through.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Freia (20:28):
And sometimes, you can do the best qualification in the
world.
You can talk to the client timesand times again, and they will
tell you, don't worry aboutconcrete ideas.
We just want to know themythology, methodology, no need
to do all the mock ups.
And then you lose out on theopportunity.
You do the pitch feedback callafterwards.
And they say, another agency didthe creatives and we knew
(20:50):
exactly what kind of campaign wewere buying.
Harv (20:52):
Hmm.
Freia (20:53):
you just kind of sit back and think, well, what was the
point of all of this?
Because you've told me youdidn't want to see that.
So sometimes it is just what itis.
It changes.
People change, a stakeholderthat you didn't know of.
Came to the pitch, changedeverything.
Harv (21:06):
Hmm.
Freia (21:07):
So it's tricky, but I think, generally if I had to say
what I'm seeing the most is dialdown on the creative and the how
and do more of the, buildingtrust, proving ROI, the
financial conversation aboutthis type of campaign we know
will reach X amount of people inyour audience.
If you want to sell theseproducts by Black Friday.
(21:30):
We think that based on previouscampaigns, we can make you X
amount of revenue.
And that's probably all theyneed to know.
The ins and outs of the, of asimilar campaign can be
discussed, but they want to seethat we've done this time and
time again, so we're confidentthat we can sell this product
for them through this channel.
Harv (21:46):
Hmm.
Freia (21:47):
So I think just as a rule of thumb, I would say, for most
agencies, do less of thetactical, more of the strategic
and the forecast elements.
Harv (21:58):
Good advice.
You touched on kind ofqualification there already, but
does that go beyond just theinterviews you're doing with the
team that brings you the pitchto say, what are you looking
for?
What kinds of things would yousay need to go into that
process?
Freia (22:12):
So, in some agencies, probably the smaller ones,
qualification and scoping kindof merges into one.
So it's often either the founderor maybe if you've got a
dedicated salesperson, it's thesalesperson asking lots of
questions about what the clientwants.
But I would always split it andlarger agencies usually split
the process into starting withqualification, which is
(22:32):
basically just that first stepof what are our chances of
winning.
So these are the
Harv (22:38):
Mm
Freia (22:38):
the, details about is the budget actually signed off?
What is the budget?
Who has signed it off?
Is there some kind of proof thatthere is a budget, ballpark
figures, dates?
The urgency, the stakeholdersthat are involved, what is the
problem that they need to fix?
Why are they going out into thepitch process?
Who else is pitching?
(23:00):
Why did they pick us to pitch?
What do they like about us thatmaybe other agencies in the
process don't have?
What KPIs do they want toachieve?
And then, you know, someagencies use like a scoring
mechanism based on all of that.
What are our chances of winningfrom 1 to 10 or from 0 to 100%?
Just to gauge, you know, howmuch effort should we be putting
(23:20):
into this?
Or, is there like a red flagthat we need to discuss?
To say, are we really going intothis?
Because they haven't got abudget.
Biggest red flag obviously isthey haven't got a budget.
But that's really the first bit.
And then you take it a bitfurther into, I guess, scoping
where you might get your accountdirector on a call.
Or a head of SEO or head ofcreative to just dig deeper
(23:43):
into, okay, this is what we knowabout you already, but we've got
questions.
and you just find outstrategically what are they
expecting from us?
So we're not going into tacticsor, you know, like the nitty
gritty.
We don't need this, right now,we just need the strategic
conversation.
And then I would say the, themost critical bit is what I call
(24:04):
the war room, where you bringthose people that have spoken to
the prospect into a room,ideally face to face, but you
can do this online and you, youreally think, how do we win
this?
And this is where I would spend,you know, on some, I've worked
with some clients and we spend awhole day in the war room, just
like mapping out what we know.
(24:25):
And how we can use what we knowto win the pitch.
So what's important to them?
Who is the main decision maker?
Is there something like, havethey been burned by a previous
agency?
So therefore we need to givethem trust and confidence that
this isn't going to happenagain.
Is there like, seasonality?
So urgency to start sooner, andtherefore we can go in with a
(24:46):
higher price to say we can getthis done quickly for you.
So you really think about thewinning themes, the narrative,
you map it out, and it becomeslike a skeleton for your pitch
deck.
And if you do a war room, youwill probably see that the pitch
deck skeleton is very light onthe tactical delivery and very
heavy on the"how do we win thisnarrative And they work so well.
(25:10):
They need to be lead by someonewho is good at like narrative
creation, could be asalesperson, could also be, you
know, anyone who's, who's goodat that.
But, that's where I would spendmore time.
And usually we jump from scopingor qualification straight into
pitch deck creation, and that'swhen it becomes expensive and
chaotic and not very good forbuy-in.
(25:31):
So, if, if you can do all threesteps, I would say...
Harv (25:36):
That's really, really good advice.
And, hopefully again, helps youkind of stand out amongst the
field.
I have often wondered whether weshould recoup the time invested
on a pitch in the projectestimate.
So again, I guess it depends onyour process, right?
So if you've had this likereally long winded process, then
the more money and cost you'vesunk into this, if you're
(25:57):
following this, this approachthat you're suggesting, the
pitch process is tighter, butwhat is your thoughts?
Like, do you, do you recommendhiding some of those pitch costs
in, in the project, in thestrategy fee or something like
that?
Or do you think it reallydepends on your process and if
it's efficient, then you know,it's like a cost of business.
Freia (26:17):
Yeah, both.
I think first step is make yourpitch process more efficient.
Just cut out all thisunnecessary chaos, actually make
a process, and decide who shouldbe involved in the process.
So, like I said, in the earlystages, it's your strategic
people, your client servicespeople, your people in the data
to formulate some kind ofstrategic plan.
And then it's the deliverypeople, but I think, no matter
(26:39):
what you do, you can either backthe money through, you know, the
project cost, or if you don't dothat, the, the clients are still
paying for it because your ratesare calculated with an overhead
cost of, you know, a cost ofselling to prospects.
So either way the cost ofselling will be made back by
(27:01):
people paying you a specificfee.
I mean, I don't want to come upwith a really strong yes or no.
You can do either, but I thinkit's more important that you
keep in check and you keeptracking how much time you
actually spend on your pitchprocess.
And if it becomes unreasonable,then it's probably because you
are spending too much time.
So you need to pull it back.
(27:23):
What you can also do is based onyour likelihood of winning or
the amount of money thiscontract is worth, you can
decide how much effort you mightwant to put into it so it
doesn't become unreasonably highin terms of cost and time.
So again, if it's a smallcontract and you're not, you
know, that bothered, if you'regetting it or not, you could go
(27:45):
in with more of a, not a credsdeck.
I would never go in with a credsdeck unless people ask for a
creds deck, you could then justdo like a light level, like a
soft touch level of what youwould usually do if it's your
perfect client, the type ofretainer that you want at a
certain value, Yeah, then putyour everything into it.
So there's, there's multipleoptions, but really at the end
(28:07):
of the day, whether you'recharging the client in the
project cost or they're payingfor it through the rates, it's
it's kind of, they're paying forit anyway.
Harv (28:15):
That makes sense.
Let's talk a bit about pricingthen, you know, if you do
determine what your client'sbudget is, is that one way to
start and just work backwardsand see what you can deliver
within that?
There's also, you know, pricingbased on value versus pricing
based on the time you anticipategoing into executing this
campaign.
So what are your thoughts aroundthis?
Freia (28:38):
So, a couple of questions there and one, I guess,
something that I'm seeing a lot,like common issues with pricing
is that we're not pricingeverything in, in the first
place.
So you're talking here aboutvalue based pricing, which is
like the Holy Grail of pricing.
But actually most of the peoplethat I work with, they're
nowhere near the situation wherethey can get away with value
based pricing.
They're not even pricing inproject management, account
(28:59):
management, SLAs, nevermind,value based pricing.
So I think for some agencies,it's really going back to the
basics of, are you charging theright rates in the first place?
When have you reviewed yourrates?
last
Harv (29:13):
Yeah
Freia (29:14):
Is your rate calculation based on some actual science of,
you know, you've got an accountdirector here who's costing you
X, Y, and Z internally.
They can deliver 70 percentchargeable work.
You know, they cost me X insalary and X in pensions and
national insurance and whatever,Yeah and therefore, I should be
charging them out at this rate.
(29:35):
Whereas a junior designer can do80 percent of chargeable time,
but it's costing me much less ininternal costs.
So therefore I should chargethem at this rate.
So there's, there's a formula tocreating rates that actually
make sense and then you shouldbe charging your people out at
tiered rates rather than ablended rate and for a lot of
agencies, the progression overtime of the maturity model of
(29:56):
pricing starts with blendedrate, everyone gets churned out
at the same rate.
And also we're giving away a lotof stuff for free.
Onboarding is for free.
Get some client management forfree.
Account management is for free.
Project management is for free.
So you're already probably notvery profitable with your
pricing.
The next step is then usually,okay, let's price everything in.
Let's build some confidence toactually position that work, as
(30:18):
a, as a crucial element of whatwe're doing.
Then tiered pricing, so chargingdifferent people at different
rates.
And then value based pricing islike a, it's a whole different
game of you as an agency are sounique and so good and
specialized in something thatthere's no one else out there
and you can really get away withwhatever you want to do.
(30:39):
Because people come to you, theyqueue up because you can do
something that no one else cando.
And then you can move from, youknow, a pricing sheet that's
based on these rates or time andmaterial to something that just
has like an output in terms ofvalue attached to a pound value
of dollar value or whatever, butyou have to be in that position
(31:01):
of, we are so special and sogreat at something that we can
do that.
And agencies that don't priceeverything in and they don't
have optimized rates, they'renot usually in that spot yet.
Harv (31:11):
Yeah.
Freia (31:11):
I think it's a step by step, getting pricing more and
more optimized over time.
Harv (31:18):
I really like how you put that actually that there,
there's even a maturity processwith regards to pricing.
And there's a journey there for,you know, all of us to make sure
we're maximizing what we'recharging and how we're building
those proposals before we evenget to that point.
So really, really good advice.
So once you, once you deliverthis pitch and this cost
(31:38):
proposal, is there anything thatcan be done after that point to
improve our chances, besidesjust the wait and see?
Freia (31:46):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's a tricky oneto answer because I would say,
yes, there is, but don't justrely on what happens after the
pitch.
It's like a constant from dayone.
What's your communication plan?
I would say is a better way oflooking at it.
If you just looked at the stepsafter the pitch, I would say,
you know, have some next stepsbooked in.
When you're in the pitch room,make sure that you leave some
(32:09):
time, leave some slack in thepitch presentation to ask for
immediate feedback, Q&As,discuss missing.
If you can follow up withanything, so for example, again,
the scenario of you might have aCMO and someone else in the
room, can you create a boardpack, like a one page summary of
the financial return for the CMOand something else for the head
(32:33):
of creative?
So think about next steps,follow ups, Q&As, think about
urgency as well.
So for example, if you know theclient is trying to make a
certain amount of revenue in akind of seasonal time period,
that's really important forthem.
You could say, okay, if we startonboarding next month, we really
(32:54):
have to agree the contract inthe next three weeks.
You know, what, what can yougive the client to say, we can
do this for you, we can pullthis off for you, but we would
need an answer by X or within Xtimeframe.
So that would be after thepitch, but look at it more
holistically from day one of ifyou're worried about getting
ghosted, which is essentially ifyou don't hear anything after
(33:15):
the pitch, you're being ghostedis kind of what you're saying, I
guess, is really goodqualification, are they serious
about it?
Is the budget signed off?
I need to meet all of thesestakeholders.
If they don't let me meet them,then that's a red flag.
So like basically remove all thered flags really early, to
remove the likelihood of beingghosted right at the end and
then stay in contact constantly.
(33:37):
Nothing in the pitch should be asurprise.
The pitch should be a summary ofwhat the client kind of already
knows because you're constantlychecking in with them.
You know them all, you know whatthey want to see.
then hopefully if they'reserious about it, there is a
budget, you know, all thestakeholders and you check in
with them and you have nextsteps and urgency and whatever
else you might not get ghosted.
(33:58):
But I've seen scenarios justrecently where you still get
ghosted.
Because in this climate, whenone thing changes.
They changed their whole mindand suddenly they can't afford
an agency anymore.
Or they think they can't.
Or the most senior person goesto a different company, gets
replaced.
(34:18):
Revenue in the last quarter,like financial results came in,
now we can't afford the budgetthat we think.
It's so quick now that peoplechange their mind, that you
might still get ghosted, but youcan do some things to avoid it.
Harv (34:32):
Absolutely.
There's a couple of things thatjust kind of in summary for me,
kind of stand out, it's todemonstrate that value all along
throughout the process.
And just by, I think simply byeven doing that, you are, you're
being unique because I thinklike even those one pagers that
you're recommending to give tovarious members of the, of the
client team, right away, you'remaking sure that they're
(34:55):
remembering you and rememberingwhat you can do for them.
So, I think it's a great way tostand out.
Freia (35:02):
And I think as well, the the human touch, but with an
angle of getting buy in.
So as an example, I've supporteda client with a seven figure
pitch.
One of their biggest ones.
They're, they're softwaredevelopers, so they don't have
small projects.
They're all kind of at least sixfigures or if they're big, seven
figures.
And we did a war room, and wedid the whole process, like I
(35:23):
described today on this podcast.
And it turned out that, thiscompany was a father and two
sons and the father actuallykicked off the software
development project because hewanted to make sure that when he
exits the business, and/oreventually passes away,
unfortunately, they are all leftin a much better, more automated
(35:44):
state of doing things.
But then the two brothers werekind of not fully in agreement.
So more than, showing atechnical proposal, it was about
a family who wanted to securethe future of a business through
some technology.
So we had to go in with a reallyhuman, like understanding this
(36:06):
dynamic of what does everyoneneed and want and how much money
are they all comfortablespending in a family unit, which
could be even more complicatedthan just three random
directors.
So I think really knowing painpoints and what keeps them up at
night.
And, in a normal company, whatkind of pressure is their boss
putting them under?
(36:27):
are you worried that if youdon't, if we don't perform,
you're going to get sacked?
Like what, what's the scenariohere?
Like really getting under theskin of how can we make their
life easier and resolve thisproblem with them?
rather than just, you told usyou need XYZ, here's how we
would do it.
Like really go in like anadvisor and tell them what they
really need, not what they'vetold you, to make this happen.
(36:49):
And that's where the, that valuecomes in.
Oh, oh, we thought we need XYZ.
Actually, yeah, you're right.
Probably we need something else.
And here are a couple of optionsand price points, how we can
make that work.
Harv (37:01):
Definitely.
I think a lot of us go into thatprocess looking at the RFP and
looking to make sure that werespond to all those points.
And so what I really like aboutwhat you've said is that you
have to go beyond that andreally get deeper, deeper than
that, because, that's notnecessarily the full story.
That's only what they've managedto put down on paper.
I'm just wondering if there'sany other advice you'd give to
(37:22):
an agency or an ops directorthat's looking to optimize the
process, or you feel like we'vecovered most of the bases that,
that come with your advicearound pitching and new
business.
Freia (37:31):
Yeah, I think we covered a lot around the process.
So if I was an ops directorworking with sales, I think it
is really the, what should thestep by step pitch process be in
an ideal world?
Not like what's the strictprocess that we all have to
stick to?
What's best practice that meanswe can do this effectively and
without chaos.
Who should be involved so I cango away and plan resource and
(37:53):
plan resource accordingly, and Ican earmark these on a pitch for
X percent each month and thesepeople for maybe a bit less.
then also collecting pitchfeedback, I think super
important.
Actually ops directors are greatfor doing that because they
don't usually get involved inthe pitch.
The client never sees them.
and I would say, get someone,you know, objective to jump on a
(38:15):
call, half an hour, and ask somereally good questions about your
understanding of what the briefwas, how well we did in the
pitch.
Did we cover everything thatthey need?
how did we compare to otheragencies?
I am surprised, but I think in90 percent of my pitch feedback
calls, clients tell me who elsewas in the pitch.
So I know exactly who we'repitching against and the same
(38:37):
agencies come up again and againfor certain clients.
So really kind of digging intohow good was this.
We don't want to hear in anemail we were close second.
It's so annoying.
We can't do anything with that.
We want to really understandwhere we can improve.
And then over time you will seefor the, for the, you know,
different elements of a pitchwhere you need to improve.
(38:58):
If you get great feedback everytime for your ability to show
how creative you are, thenthat's great, but if you get bad
feedback on your ability toprove ROI, you need to fix that.
so I think those bits, learningfrom feedback, monitoring how
long it takes you to pitch,making the process leaner and
more efficient, and I'm not justsaying this because I'm offering
(39:21):
it as a service, but, getsomeone in for, for this war
room kind of pitch doctoring,scenario of we need a, an
objective view that representswhat the client needs to
challenge us to say, I don't getwhat you're pitching to me here.
I don't know what I'm buying.
I'm bored.
Or, you know, I don't understandhow much money you're going to
(39:42):
make me.
Literally getting someone inlike that, it could even just be
someone from within your agencywho can do that for you.
to look at the pitch and say,this is not good enough.
Harv (39:52):
Sometimes I think when you're in house, and familiar
with your own process, that canbecome hard to be so objective.
So getting somebody that's notas involved, like the Ops
Director is one approach.
But you offer this service aswell.
So you go in with an agency and,and work through that process
with them.
Is that how that works?
Freia (40:10):
Yes.
So agencies get me in, they geta brief, they've got an
opportunity.
And if it's an importantopportunity and they want to
close it, they will get me inand I will basically, help them
through the end to end processof, do we have the info that we
need from qualification andscoping to create a winning
pitch, and if not, I'll helpthem ask the right questions and
(40:30):
then do the war room.
And I'll also be the person thatthey pitch to in the rehearsal.
So I'll kind of pretend to bethe client and say, like, check
that what we know about theclient is actually covered in
the pitch deck.
So it's really just like a, anobjective partner to tell you
what you're missing because wewill fall into default and just
(40:50):
do what we've always done whenwe're stressed, and when we're
pressed for time.
So, yeah, it's, that's why it'scalled kind of doctoring.
You kind of take pieces out, addpieces in.
yeah, it's great.
It's actually a lot of fun.
If you can do it as the opsdirector, do it because it's,
it's really fun and it's like a,like an investigation into oh,
can we really win?
How do we win this?
(41:10):
It's like a strategic kind ofquest, you know, like, uh, can't
describe it.
It's, it's fun.
It's really fun.
Harv (41:18):
Absolutely.
You know, I, just reallyquickly, I didn't comment on
this when you said it earlier,but it was about using the last
few minutes of the pitch or 15minutes to actually have a
conversation with your clientsas well.
And I just wanted to come backto that point as well, because,
you know, when you get into thathabit of producing like 200
slides and you've got 50 minutesto get through them, you're,
you're ending up leavingyourself no time.
(41:40):
And then it's like, okay.
You need to leave because thenext pitch party is coming in.
So I think it's really importantto cut down on that and making
sure that you have time for thatconversation, answer those
objections right away and talkabout next steps.
So Freia, if somebody wants yourhelp with this kind of pitch
process or anything else inagency operations, where can
they find you and how can theyreach out to you?
Freia (42:02):
Yes, LinkedIn, my website, I think there's only
one, Freie Mühlenbein onLinkedIn.
yeah, just reach out, even ifyou don't know what you need or
if you just want to chat, likeyou don't need to buy anything
at all.
just, you know, a conversationabout what might be wrong with
your pitch process.
It's not just new biz, likeliterally anything around
growth.
If you're stalling, if you'vebeen at the same size for years
(42:26):
and you don't know how to getout of it, if you're not making
enough profit, like literallyanything to do with growth, ops,
sales, people, just, justcontact me on LinkedIn on my
website.
And I'm always happy to chat.
Harv (42:38):
Last question.
So we were talking about yourjourney into operations, you
know, with more and more of ushaving conversations about
operations and, more and moreevents, hopefully we're
inspiring people that want toget into the space earlier in
their careers, unlike a lot ofus that kind of stumbled into
it.
If you had to give anybodyadvice that was thinking about
moving into the space, how wouldyou tell them to approach that?
Freia (43:01):
So I think if you're in a role where you're touching a
little bit on ops, but you'renot responsible for it.
I think I would just really, Iwould talk to the person
responsible for ops, if there isone, about wanting more insight
and to, to learn.
And usually in the agency world,that is possible.
So even if you just say, I wantto learn more about operational
KPIs and how we measureefficiencies within teams, that
(43:24):
in itself is a learning curve.
And I think just voicing thatyou have an interest and to get
exposure to the types of thingsthat an ops director would look
at on ops, or even a head of, ahead of a department is, is an
ops person essentially.
asking for learningopportunities and then just join
all these communities.
I don't actually know if I'mallowed to mention any, but,
Harv (43:45):
No, please do, please do.
Freia (43:47):
Obviously, like Rob Sayles is out there with the Ops
Cohort.
That's like the, I guess, thenewest edition on, on the
market, where essentially you'rein with lots of different ops
people learning from each other,there's podcasts like this one,
there's other communities,there's conferences, I mean, the
last time we saw each other faceto face was at the Agency
Hackers Clockwork conference.
(44:08):
So I think just really look outfor where are these people,
learn from them and maybe get amentor, you know, just someone
like not paid for, even justsomeone to speak to regularly to
say.
What do I need to know?
Where do I learn it?
What have you done in yourcareer?
And then look out foropportunities and just be
(44:28):
proactive.
Harv (44:29):
Definitely, definitely.
And there's a lot of, greatconversations happening on
LinkedIn as well.
So connecting with some of thesepeople and following the kinds
of things they talk about and Ithink reaching out to them.
I think a lot of us, a lot ofpeople are just so, you know, so
friendly and willing to sharetheir knowledge as well.
So I'm sure people be very happyto jump on a call and explain
what they mean by whateverthey've posted about.
So really, really good advice.
Freia (44:51):
The ops, the agency ops community is lovely.
You know this, I stillsometimes, you know, when you
have like a, a phase ofoverthinking or imposter.
I still reach out to otherconsultants.
We're technically competitors,but no one cares.
Like I reach out and say, I'vegot this scenario.
What would you do?
Everyone always helps peoplereach out to me.
(45:13):
We help each other.
it's, it's really, really lovelyand friendly.
So just no fear of reaching out.
Harv (45:20):
That is a lovely note to stop on.
So thank you very much, Freia.
Thank you so much for joining inthis conversation.
There's so much more that youhave to say on loads of other
topics.
So I'm sure at some point, we,we would love to have you back
and we'll dive into a differenttopic.
Freia (45:36):
I'd love to come back.
Thank you so much.
Harv (45:38):
Hi all.
I hope you enjoyed thatconversation with Freia.
I've also discovered that Ican't say methodology or
methodological without twoespresso shots.
There I go again.
Pitches are loads of work.
So I love the advice Freiashared about not going down the
route of sharing dozens anddozens of tactics, nor focusing
solely on creds and methodology,but rather focusing on
(46:00):
addressing the client's problemsand demonstrating the ROI you
can help them achieve.
A few of my key takeaways weregetting deep into the
qualification process tomaximize your chances of
winning.
Creating a war room for thepitch where you discuss how
you're going to win.
And demonstrating value and inthe process be the unique and
standout agency where othersmight just be showing tactics.
(46:24):
And finally a reminder thatthere's a newsletter that goes
out every other week tocorrespond with the podcast
episode where I talk about someof my personal experiences with
the topic as well as keytakeaways from the guest
interviews so that you havesomething to reference from the
conversations that we have.
Please sign up for it atscoro.com/podcast.
That's S C O R O dot com slashpodcast.
(46:48):
Scroll down on that page to findthe newsletter signup form.
And question.
Have you shared this podcastwith others in the agency and
operation space?
Let's grow the audience.
Please share this episode with afriend or colleague that would
enjoy hearing the conversation.
I really appreciate yoursupport.
If you have any feedback, pleasereach out to me.
linkedin.com/in/harvnagra.
(47:12):
That'slinkedin.com/in/harvnagra.
And do leave a comment when Ipost this episode and its clips
on LinkedIn and share yourthoughts about what's worked
well for you.
That's it for now.
I'll speak to you in the nextepisode.
Hi all, welcome back to the show.
Before we get started, I wantedto mention that I'll be taking
part in a webinar with AgencyHackers on Thursday, 19th
September 2024.
It's all about productivity inthe workspace.
I'll be sharing some tips thatI've seen work really well to
maximize a team's ability to dofocus work and get into flow.
(00:53):
I would love to see you there,so please sign up for that and
get it in your calendars.
Again, that's on Thursday, 19thSeptember, 2024.
You can sign up for free atbit.ly/thehandbook24.
Again, that'sbit.ly/thehandbook24.
(01:15):
We'll put a link to that in theepisode notes as well, but do
sign up.
Now, let's get back to the show.
It's been a tough couple ofyears in the agency space.
When sharing notes at variousagency meetups, it's clear that
a lot of agencies are stillfacing a real struggle with
winning business this year.
Getting sign-off from clients istaking a lot longer than it used
(01:35):
to, with deals lingering in thepipeline.
Projects end up getting splitinto multiple small commissions,
rather than kicking off the fullprogram.
And ghosting is sadly becomingmore and more common.
After you've spent countlesshours delivering and potentially
even winning a pitch, not havingthat turn into a project that
you can invoice really stings.
(01:56):
And on the topic of pitching,I've got a laundry list of
challenges and frustrations thatI've lived through.
I was going to list them all inthe intro, but I might as well
save them to put to our guestand see if she can help heal
some of my past traumas.
But more seriously, when I wasdigital director many years ago,
I found pitches exhausting.
And then as ops director, Ifound myself worrying about how
(02:17):
much unpaid time we werespending on pitches, eating up
studio time, and trying tooptimize our win rate.
It's tricky, and you might feellike you have no choice but to
go down the pitch route if youwant to bring in the work.
So when you are investing somuch time and effort, how can
you maximize your ROI?
That's the topic we're tacklingin today's episode.
(02:39):
Giving Ops leaders some ideasthat you can take back to your
own agency to make sure thatyou're maximizing your chances
of winning.
Our guest today is FreiaMuehlenbein.
Freia is an agency growthconsultant and owner of Be Reyt
Consultancy.
Freia has over 15 years ofexperience in agency operations.
She previously worked at SearchLaboratory, one of the UK's top
(03:01):
digital marketing agencies.
She grew her own digital contentand online PR department from
zero to a hundred people overseven years.
For another four years, sheworked with the board of
directors to lead the agencystrategy and change programs,
working across all departmentsto deliver short and long term
strategic goals.
One of her key initiatives wasto revamp their sales and pitch
(03:24):
process completely, aiming tosign larger integrated
contracts.
Freia will share some of thoselearnings with us today.
In the past few years, Freia'sdecided to take what she's
learned and help other agenciesvia her consultancy, sharing
expertise across the spectrum onsales, marketing, ops, and
client services.
(03:44):
She's done workshops andmasterclasses with Agency
Hackers, Agency Collective,BIMA, The WOW Company, and loads
more.
And on a personal note, Freia'sbeen so gracious with me.
When I was dipping my toe intoconsulting, but mostly in house
still, we had the opportunity toexchange ideas over a call and
she introduced me to loads ofgreat people in the agency
operations space, some of whohave already been on the
(04:07):
podcast.
I'm really excited for you tohear this conversation, so let's
get into it.
Freia, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
With Ops folks, I love hearingabout their journey into
operations to begin with.
So I was wondering if we couldstart there and you could tell
us a bit about your story.
Freia (04:25):
Yeah, sure.
by accident, I think like mostof us, I actually came to the UK
from Germany in 2008.
And after I've graduated here,got a role in a digital
marketing agency doing somethingcompletely different.
It used to be called off pageSEO, so kind of content
marketing, online PR.
And that team grew so quicklythat really after a couple of
(04:47):
months working there as agraduate, I had to start
managing a team, ofinternational people, people
from all over the world, peoplefrom within the UK.
And that team grew from justbeing me to a hundred people
after a couple of years.
So I think ops was justsomething I had to step into,
not necessarily by choice or byapplying for that role, but
because the team exploded and wehad to introduce processes, ways
(05:12):
of working, better ways of doingthings.
So I just fell into it.
Like I think a lot of us do.
Harv (05:18):
It almost sounds like it was, quite an accelerated path.
You, you just had to kind ofdive straight into a lot of
these challenges based on howthe agency was growing.
Freia (05:28):
Yeah, exactly.
And when you haven't been in arole like this before, you just
kind of, you kind of make it up,but you learn from others, I was
lucky I had good, you know,people around me, but there
wasn't a community like there istoday of ops people, you know,
ops networks, ops Slackchannels, conferences, it wasn't
necessarily a thing, so I thinknow if you get into ops, you
(05:50):
have many more choices andopportunities to learn from
others.
I think I was just really makingit up, but really enjoying it.
So I, I stayed in ops for avery, very long time before I
moved into more kind of of astrategic role with the board of
directors.
But yeah, it's, yeah, just, Justby accident, really?
Harv (06:07):
And so what made you decide to branch out on your own
and start Be Reyt?
And where does the name comefrom?
Freia (06:14):
So Be Reyt, if you say it in Yorkshire, which is where I'm
based, Be Ryte,
Harv (06:17):
Hmm.
Freia (06:18):
basically just an expression of it will be okay.
I've always loved ever sinceI've moved here from, from
Germany.
So I gave my company that name,but the idea of branching out,
came from kind of personallifestyle changes and wanting to
be self employed, also I'veworked with consultants myself
when I was agency side hmm.
and the learning curve ofworking with a consultant for
(06:39):
just a couple of days was somuch bigger than just being in
the agency for a whole year.
So I just really loved the ideaof doing something that's kind
of equally rewarding for lots ofdifferent agencies.
So at some point it took me afew years to be honest, to brave
it.
but, like I said earlier, youknow, the ops community is
great, but the agency consultantcommunity in general is
(07:01):
fantastic and really supportive.
So it was a really easy thing toget into.
and now I do what I used to do,but for lots of different
people.
So it's, it's great and varied.
Harv (07:10):
Amazing.
so our, our topic today is allaround the theme of pitching and
winning business.
You talk to a lot of agencies.
What kinds of things are youhearing at the moment with
regards to new business?
Freia (07:23):
Yeah, it's still very up and down, isn't it?
It's, and it's been like thisfor a while.
I feel like everyone's a bitsick of talking about it, the
ups and downs, I think peoplewant to know how do we get out
of it.
But I think until the market andthe general kind of environment
changes, it's hard to give youthe magic bullet that just
changes everything.
I think, definitely what I'mseeing is ghosting is happening
(07:43):
a lot more.
We need to be much more flexiblewith clients.
We can't force them into ournormal kind of contractual
agreements anymore.
a lot more focus because it'sharder to win business on
existing business.
So growing clients, betteraccount management, and also
looking kind of inwards intoprocesses, operations,
utilization, efficiencies,profitability, because new biz
(08:06):
is, is essentially revenue andrevenue comes from lots of
different places.
And I think we historically haveput all of our eggs in one
basket to say, we need newbusiness.
Harv (08:15):
Yeah.
Freia (08:15):
And now, because that's harder, we're looking much more
inward into what, what do wehave already, which is clients
and processes and efficiencies,and we can make revenue from
just making that better.
So that's you know, a lot ofwhat I do is new business, but
also the inwards looking on to,growing revenue from what we
have.
but what I also find is clientssay to me, Oh, there's a lot of
(08:36):
ghosting.
It's harder to win new business.
But at the same time, theyhaven't changed how they close
the deals that are coming in.
So there's fewer opportunitiesbut they're still doing the same
pitch.
They're not changing how they'repitching from process to deck,
to narrative, to step by stepcommunication with the prospect.
So it's a bit of a funnysituation where the client
(08:58):
thinks it's out of theircontrol.
But actually, it's not, becausetheir process isn't great, their
deck isn't great, so they're notdoing themselves any favors by
not reviewing how they pitch.
They have to pitch differentlynow because of this unique
scenario that we're in.
So I think I would always say tomy clients is yes, it's a tough
market, but what are you doingto control the opportunities
(09:22):
that are coming in and tomaximize the deals that you're
closing?
And usually the answer is notmuch.
Harv (09:28):
Okay.
I really love that, about thepitch process hasn't changed.
That's a lot of what we're goingto talk about today.
But what you mentioned, giventhe tighter market, tighter
revenues and stuff like that,having to optimize, and create
efficiencies.
I think, that is a fantasticopportunity as well.
It's forcing us to look at theway we work and improve that.
(09:48):
So it's setting the foundationsfor a stronger future for a lot
of agencies that are investingthe time to sort that out now as
a result of the market.
There's so much to talk abouthere, I've got a laundry list of
gripes with the pitchingprocess, that we're forced to
endure in agencies so, this isvery much going to be a
therapeutic session for me,where I put to you a lot of
(10:09):
things that I've seen in thepast that I've really kind of
grumbled or felt frustratedabout, so let's get into that if
that's okay with you.
the first thing is, I would haveloved if we didn't have to
pitch.
One frustration I've had in thepast is that we, even when we
had really good clientrelationships, they would ask us
to pitch and, you know, thereward for being, good was that
(10:29):
we were considered as one of thecandidates to participate in the
pitch rather than just saying,you guys are nailing it.
Here's a new project.
I'm just wondering, is there away to get past this to the
promised land where you can justbypass that pitch stage?
What are, what are your thoughtson that?
Freia (10:44):
I wouldn't say this is very common.
I think once you're in with theclient relationship, unless it's
a very vague contract where yougo from project to project where
of course, the client can thensay once the contract is done,
which is a project that is, youknow, they might want to go
around again and let you pitch,but I would say that's not very
common.
What I would say is if theclient is asking you to pitch
(11:08):
again and again, and it's tryingto pull ideas out of you, then
that probably means you're notbeing proactive enough in the
first place.
And I'm seeing this with lotsand lots of agencies where, once
the work is in, and we've, youknow, confirmed either retainer
or project.
We then just deliver that work.
So we're not kind of in thedriving seat of, you know, on a
(11:29):
quarterly basis saying we'vejumped into the data.
We've got some insights here.
We have some new findings tosay, what should you be doing
next to achieve the goals thatyou've told us you want to
achieve?
And that's, you know, that to meis client service.
That's strategic thinking, beinga trusted advisor.
If we just deliver the work,that's when clients become
(11:50):
annoying because they will thenknock on the door constantly and
say, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
How much time have we got left?
What's next?
We have an idea for a newproject or a new campaign.
Can you pitch to us how youwould do it?
And it needs to be the other wayaround.
It needs to be that we'reconstantly coming forward with
new ideas.
We should never be in thatposition of the client comes to
(12:12):
us because we haven't given themanything new or exciting or
strategic to think about or tosign off.
We want to say, here's the newidea.
Here's how much that will costyou.
And here's the ROI that we'llcreate from it.
No brainer.
Can you do it?
So we need to know what kind ofbudget they've got available for
the year.
And then we need to think, okay,we've got part of that budget
right now, but we can probablyfree up a lot more than that if
(12:35):
we constantly come up with newideas.
And it's hard because our timegets eaten up by day to day and
campaign delivery and fightingfires, but to me, client
services is strategic thinking,spotting new opportunities and
living in the data to make goodbusiness cases to our clients.
And then they kind of calm down,they trust us, they let us get
on with it and they wait for usto position your work.
(12:57):
And that's really the situationthat you want to be in.
Harv (13:00):
It's a great sales and marketing tactic to just
demonstrate value and give themsomething and then hopefully
they start seeing you as apartner rather than just
something very transactional,right?
So that's, that's really goodadvice.
I have in the past found myselfkind of stressed about the
impact of non-billable pitcheson our capacity to do billable
work.
Like in 10 years, I saw onepitch that we were paid for.
(13:23):
Is there when you do have to gothrough these pitches, a way to
strike that balance, you know,having to bring in freelancers
because your internal team is sobacked up on pitch work or vice
versa is, is just not good forthe bottom line.
Freia (13:35):
It's tricky.
There's no magic formula to say,here's how much you should spend
on a pitch.
Even if there was, I wouldassume that agencies would just
overstep that anyway, becauseyou want the new business.
Harv (13:50):
Mm hmm.
Freia (13:51):
What I'm seeing a lot is, agencies are worried about the
internal time or the costs ofthe sale or the cost of
pitching, but actually that'snot always the problem.
The problem is that the pitchtakes far too long in the first
place.
Harv (14:04):
Mm.
Freia (14:04):
I think rather than thinking, how can I recoup the
time or the money?
It, you know, costs me todeliver this pitch.
I would look at the pitchprocess and who is involved,
because 9 out of 10 times, Iwould probably say there's far
too many people involved andwe're taking far too long to
create something that couldprobably be done in half the
time.
(14:25):
Some of the reasons are, theremay not be a pitch process in
the first place, so it'schaotic.
We're pulling a ton of peopleinto the room to create
something we don't even knowwhat the client needs in the
first place.
So there's no process.
We haven't qualified properly.
So we don't know what the clientwants to see.
We don't know what the main goalis, who the key decision makers
are and what they want to see.
But I think genuinely what I seeis the deck that we come up with
(14:50):
is really heavy on tacticaldetail on the how.
Campaign mock ups, 50 slides onone creative idea, a hundred
page technical audit.
Clients really aren't interestedin that unless you're in a very
kind of tactical contract withthem.
(15:11):
I would spend more time in thebeginning.
So qualification, strategizing,data, insights, so really fully
understanding what the clientneeds, what the context is that
they're in, what can we achievefor them in the first place and
then pull the wider teams andwhen you can brief them
properly.
Because if you can say to thedelivery team, for example, we
(15:33):
have looked into this client,we've done our qualification,
we've done our scoping.
Here's the strategy they need toachieve X, Y, and Z, you and
SEO, go away and find me the topfive priorities for SEO that
will achieve exactly those goalsthat I've just told you.
Rather than you here in SEO, goaway and go blind and tell me
(15:54):
everything that's wrong withSEO.
And then you will spend days anddays and days and days on a
pitch that really only needsfive top priorities on something
that your strategic people havefound out in the beginning, but
because the pitch timelines areso short in a lot of cases, we
panic and we just pull everyonein a room without having done
(16:15):
this first bit really well, theneveryone runs around and just
picks out everything we couldpossibly do for the client.
And that's when it becomesexpensive.
That's when pitch decks getreally long.
That's when we get pitchfeedback afterwards.
So I've collected pitch feedbackfrom brands on behalf of my
clients for about six years now.
A lot of the common themes arearound, it's not strategic.
(16:39):
I don't know what I'm buying.
I know that you can do this,this, this, and this, and what's
wrong with my account.
But what am I actually buying?
And really what they want to buyis ROI.
And if we can't talk about that,and if we can't prove that,
we're going to lose the pitch.
So the first bit of the pitchprep, where we're strategic and
we're using data and we'recreating forecasts and numbers.
(16:59):
That should be the heavy bit.
The delivery teams, which iswhat the ops people are worried
about is eating into people'stime.
That should be light and thatshould be very condensed And
answering the question of howcan we deliver these strategic
goals for the client?
Harv (17:14):
Mm hmm.
Freia (17:15):
To round that up, long story short is the problem isn't
always with, the amount ofinternal time.
I think the problem is the pitchis far too complex because we're
panicking and we're not doing itproperly.
Harv (17:26):
Hmm.
I've seen it kind of go two endsof the spectrum.
One is you just kind of throweverything at the wall.
Every individual in the roomcomes up with loads of ideas,
whether it's on digital oronline advertising or whatever
it is, and creating like, brandmock ups and stuff like that.
And then that turns into thisreally heavy, long process that
you throw countless hours at.
(17:47):
Right.
And on the other end of thespectrum, as a reaction to that
in the past, like I I've triedand had discussions with my team
about whether we should go witha more method, method, I'm not
going to be able to say thatword now, mythol...
oh my gosh.
Method.
Can you, can you help me?
I think I need some...
caffeine
Freia (18:04):
Attempts to help Yup yup I know.
Harv (18:08):
That, that's the word.
So hopefully whoever's listeningcan figure that out.
Okay.
Apologies for that.
but that kind of approach, whichis also interesting, right?
You're, you're telling theclient, the how, and we're
experts, but what you're sayingis that, that also does not
necessarily work that well.
Because then it's all about, theprocess rather than talking
(18:28):
about the value they're going toget out of it.
Freia (18:31):
Yes.
So talk about, you know, how,how much detail should you put
into the creative, for example,or like a mock up or the detail
of a, of a campaign, I think youneed to find out from your
prospect first and foremost,what do they want to see?
So for example, if you'repitching to a marketing
director, like a CMO, theyprobably don't want to see that
(18:52):
because they want to know thatyou as an agency have the
ability to make them moneythrough the channels that they
are now outsourcing to you.
So this CMO doesn't need to knowthe ins and outs of what the
first campaign might look like,but they might want to see how
have you done this before?
What kind of data have you usedto tell me that you're going to
(19:13):
make me money from this?
And with a lot of creativeagencies, we go straight into
the creative.
So we want to shine with ourcreativity, but we completely
forget the financial element.
And at the end of the day,that's why people come to us.
They want to make money.
So I think find out who isactually involved in the pitch
and who you need to wow and getbuy in from.
(19:34):
Sometimes you have all thepeople in the room, you might
have a CMO who wants thenumbers, the money, the
forecasts, and maybe a head ofcreative who needs to work with
you day to day and needs to knowthat you can do what you're
saying.
And in other cases, you mightjust have the CMO and you don't
need to go as deep into thecreative.
So I think, again, it comes backto that first bit of
(19:55):
qualification, scoping,understanding stakeholders of
how deep do we need to go intoeach of these elements to win
it?
Harv (20:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, it's a way to cutthrough as well, because many of
the other agencies that youmight be pitching against might
be doing one of these twoapproaches as well, you know,
talking about the process or,you know, thousands of ideas in
creative.
And really you might be the onesthat stand out by talking about
the value and the, the ROI thatyou're going to be generating.
(20:25):
So it's a really great way tocut through.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Freia (20:28):
And sometimes, you can do the best qualification in the
world.
You can talk to the client timesand times again, and they will
tell you, don't worry aboutconcrete ideas.
We just want to know themythology, methodology, no need
to do all the mock ups.
And then you lose out on theopportunity.
You do the pitch feedback callafterwards.
And they say, another agency didthe creatives and we knew
(20:50):
exactly what kind of campaign wewere buying.
Harv (20:52):
Hmm.
Freia (20:53):
you just kind of sit back and think, well, what was the
point of all of this?
Because you've told me youdidn't want to see that.
So sometimes it is just what itis.
It changes.
People change, a stakeholderthat you didn't know of.
Came to the pitch, changedeverything.
Harv (21:06):
Hmm.
Freia (21:07):
So it's tricky, but I think, generally if I had to say
what I'm seeing the most is dialdown on the creative and the how
and do more of the, buildingtrust, proving ROI, the
financial conversation aboutthis type of campaign we know
will reach X amount of people inyour audience.
If you want to sell theseproducts by Black Friday.
(21:30):
We think that based on previouscampaigns, we can make you X
amount of revenue.
And that's probably all theyneed to know.
The ins and outs of the, of asimilar campaign can be
discussed, but they want to seethat we've done this time and
time again, so we're confidentthat we can sell this product
for them through this channel.
Harv (21:46):
Hmm.
Freia (21:47):
So I think just as a rule of thumb, I would say, for most
agencies, do less of thetactical, more of the strategic
and the forecast elements.
Harv (21:58):
Good advice.
You touched on kind ofqualification there already, but
does that go beyond just theinterviews you're doing with the
team that brings you the pitchto say, what are you looking
for?
What kinds of things would yousay need to go into that
process?
Freia (22:12):
So, in some agencies, probably the smaller ones,
qualification and scoping kindof merges into one.
So it's often either the founderor maybe if you've got a
dedicated salesperson, it's thesalesperson asking lots of
questions about what the clientwants.
But I would always split it andlarger agencies usually split
the process into starting withqualification, which is
(22:32):
basically just that first stepof what are our chances of
winning.
So these are the
Harv (22:38):
Mm
Freia (22:38):
the, details about is the budget actually signed off?
What is the budget?
Who has signed it off?
Is there some kind of proof thatthere is a budget, ballpark
figures, dates?
The urgency, the stakeholdersthat are involved, what is the
problem that they need to fix?
Why are they going out into thepitch process?
Who else is pitching?
(23:00):
Why did they pick us to pitch?
What do they like about us thatmaybe other agencies in the
process don't have?
What KPIs do they want toachieve?
And then, you know, someagencies use like a scoring
mechanism based on all of that.
What are our chances of winningfrom 1 to 10 or from 0 to 100%?
Just to gauge, you know, howmuch effort should we be putting
(23:20):
into this?
Or, is there like a red flagthat we need to discuss?
To say, are we really going intothis?
Because they haven't got abudget.
Biggest red flag obviously isthey haven't got a budget.
But that's really the first bit.
And then you take it a bitfurther into, I guess, scoping
where you might get your accountdirector on a call.
Or a head of SEO or head ofcreative to just dig deeper
(23:43):
into, okay, this is what we knowabout you already, but we've got
questions.
and you just find outstrategically what are they
expecting from us?
So we're not going into tacticsor, you know, like the nitty
gritty.
We don't need this, right now,we just need the strategic
conversation.
And then I would say the, themost critical bit is what I call
(24:04):
the war room, where you bringthose people that have spoken to
the prospect into a room,ideally face to face, but you
can do this online and you, youreally think, how do we win
this?
And this is where I would spend,you know, on some, I've worked
with some clients and we spend awhole day in the war room, just
like mapping out what we know.
(24:25):
And how we can use what we knowto win the pitch.
So what's important to them?
Who is the main decision maker?
Is there something like, havethey been burned by a previous
agency?
So therefore we need to givethem trust and confidence that
this isn't going to happenagain.
Is there like, seasonality?
So urgency to start sooner, andtherefore we can go in with a
(24:46):
higher price to say we can getthis done quickly for you.
So you really think about thewinning themes, the narrative,
you map it out, and it becomeslike a skeleton for your pitch
deck.
And if you do a war room, youwill probably see that the pitch
deck skeleton is very light onthe tactical delivery and very
heavy on the"how do we win thisnarrative And they work so well.
(25:10):
They need to be lead by someonewho is good at like narrative
creation, could be asalesperson, could also be, you
know, anyone who's, who's goodat that.
But, that's where I would spendmore time.
And usually we jump from scopingor qualification straight into
pitch deck creation, and that'swhen it becomes expensive and
chaotic and not very good forbuy-in.
(25:31):
So, if, if you can do all threesteps, I would say...
Harv (25:36):
That's really, really good advice.
And, hopefully again, helps youkind of stand out amongst the
field.
I have often wondered whether weshould recoup the time invested
on a pitch in the projectestimate.
So again, I guess it depends onyour process, right?
So if you've had this likereally long winded process, then
the more money and cost you'vesunk into this, if you're
(25:57):
following this, this approachthat you're suggesting, the
pitch process is tighter, butwhat is your thoughts?
Like, do you, do you recommendhiding some of those pitch costs
in, in the project, in thestrategy fee or something like
that?
Or do you think it reallydepends on your process and if
it's efficient, then you know,it's like a cost of business.
Freia (26:17):
Yeah, both.
I think first step is make yourpitch process more efficient.
Just cut out all thisunnecessary chaos, actually make
a process, and decide who shouldbe involved in the process.
So, like I said, in the earlystages, it's your strategic
people, your client servicespeople, your people in the data
to formulate some kind ofstrategic plan.
And then it's the deliverypeople, but I think, no matter
(26:39):
what you do, you can either backthe money through, you know, the
project cost, or if you don't dothat, the, the clients are still
paying for it because your ratesare calculated with an overhead
cost of, you know, a cost ofselling to prospects.
So either way the cost ofselling will be made back by
(27:01):
people paying you a specificfee.
I mean, I don't want to come upwith a really strong yes or no.
You can do either, but I thinkit's more important that you
keep in check and you keeptracking how much time you
actually spend on your pitchprocess.
And if it becomes unreasonable,then it's probably because you
are spending too much time.
So you need to pull it back.
(27:23):
What you can also do is based onyour likelihood of winning or
the amount of money thiscontract is worth, you can
decide how much effort you mightwant to put into it so it
doesn't become unreasonably highin terms of cost and time.
So again, if it's a smallcontract and you're not, you
know, that bothered, if you'regetting it or not, you could go
(27:45):
in with more of a, not a credsdeck.
I would never go in with a credsdeck unless people ask for a
creds deck, you could then justdo like a light level, like a
soft touch level of what youwould usually do if it's your
perfect client, the type ofretainer that you want at a
certain value, Yeah, then putyour everything into it.
So there's, there's multipleoptions, but really at the end
(28:07):
of the day, whether you'recharging the client in the
project cost or they're payingfor it through the rates, it's
it's kind of, they're paying forit anyway.
Harv (28:15):
That makes sense.
Let's talk a bit about pricingthen, you know, if you do
determine what your client'sbudget is, is that one way to
start and just work backwardsand see what you can deliver
within that?
There's also, you know, pricingbased on value versus pricing
based on the time you anticipategoing into executing this
campaign.
So what are your thoughts aroundthis?
Freia (28:38):
So, a couple of questions there and one, I guess,
something that I'm seeing a lot,like common issues with pricing
is that we're not pricingeverything in, in the first
place.
So you're talking here aboutvalue based pricing, which is
like the Holy Grail of pricing.
But actually most of the peoplethat I work with, they're
nowhere near the situation wherethey can get away with value
based pricing.
They're not even pricing inproject management, account
(28:59):
management, SLAs, nevermind,value based pricing.
So I think for some agencies,it's really going back to the
basics of, are you charging theright rates in the first place?
When have you reviewed yourrates?
last
Harv (29:13):
Yeah
Freia (29:14):
Is your rate calculation based on some actual science of,
you know, you've got an accountdirector here who's costing you
X, Y, and Z internally.
They can deliver 70 percentchargeable work.
You know, they cost me X insalary and X in pensions and
national insurance and whatever,Yeah and therefore, I should be
charging them out at this rate.
(29:35):
Whereas a junior designer can do80 percent of chargeable time,
but it's costing me much less ininternal costs.
So therefore I should chargethem at this rate.
So there's, there's a formula tocreating rates that actually
make sense and then you shouldbe charging your people out at
tiered rates rather than ablended rate and for a lot of
agencies, the progression overtime of the maturity model of
(29:56):
pricing starts with blendedrate, everyone gets churned out
at the same rate.
And also we're giving away a lotof stuff for free.
Onboarding is for free.
Get some client management forfree.
Account management is for free.
Project management is for free.
So you're already probably notvery profitable with your
pricing.
The next step is then usually,okay, let's price everything in.
Let's build some confidence toactually position that work, as
(30:18):
a, as a crucial element of whatwe're doing.
Then tiered pricing, so chargingdifferent people at different
rates.
And then value based pricing islike a, it's a whole different
game of you as an agency are sounique and so good and
specialized in something thatthere's no one else out there
and you can really get away withwhatever you want to do.
(30:39):
Because people come to you, theyqueue up because you can do
something that no one else cando.
And then you can move from, youknow, a pricing sheet that's
based on these rates or time andmaterial to something that just
has like an output in terms ofvalue attached to a pound value
of dollar value or whatever, butyou have to be in that position
(31:01):
of, we are so special and sogreat at something that we can
do that.
And agencies that don't priceeverything in and they don't
have optimized rates, they'renot usually in that spot yet.
Harv (31:11):
Yeah.
Freia (31:11):
I think it's a step by step, getting pricing more and
more optimized over time.
Harv (31:18):
I really like how you put that actually that there,
there's even a maturity processwith regards to pricing.
And there's a journey there for,you know, all of us to make sure
we're maximizing what we'recharging and how we're building
those proposals before we evenget to that point.
So really, really good advice.
So once you, once you deliverthis pitch and this cost
(31:38):
proposal, is there anything thatcan be done after that point to
improve our chances, besidesjust the wait and see?
Freia (31:46):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's a tricky oneto answer because I would say,
yes, there is, but don't justrely on what happens after the
pitch.
It's like a constant from dayone.
What's your communication plan?
I would say is a better way oflooking at it.
If you just looked at the stepsafter the pitch, I would say,
you know, have some next stepsbooked in.
When you're in the pitch room,make sure that you leave some
(32:09):
time, leave some slack in thepitch presentation to ask for
immediate feedback, Q&As,discuss missing.
If you can follow up withanything, so for example, again,
the scenario of you might have aCMO and someone else in the
room, can you create a boardpack, like a one page summary of
the financial return for the CMOand something else for the head
(32:33):
of creative?
So think about next steps,follow ups, Q&As, think about
urgency as well.
So for example, if you know theclient is trying to make a
certain amount of revenue in akind of seasonal time period,
that's really important forthem.
You could say, okay, if we startonboarding next month, we really
(32:54):
have to agree the contract inthe next three weeks.
You know, what, what can yougive the client to say, we can
do this for you, we can pullthis off for you, but we would
need an answer by X or within Xtimeframe.
So that would be after thepitch, but look at it more
holistically from day one of ifyou're worried about getting
ghosted, which is essentially ifyou don't hear anything after
(33:15):
the pitch, you're being ghostedis kind of what you're saying, I
guess, is really goodqualification, are they serious
about it?
Is the budget signed off?
I need to meet all of thesestakeholders.
If they don't let me meet them,then that's a red flag.
So like basically remove all thered flags really early, to
remove the likelihood of beingghosted right at the end and
then stay in contact constantly.
(33:37):
Nothing in the pitch should be asurprise.
The pitch should be a summary ofwhat the client kind of already
knows because you're constantlychecking in with them.
You know them all, you know whatthey want to see.
then hopefully if they'reserious about it, there is a
budget, you know, all thestakeholders and you check in
with them and you have nextsteps and urgency and whatever
else you might not get ghosted.
(33:58):
But I've seen scenarios justrecently where you still get
ghosted.
Because in this climate, whenone thing changes.
They changed their whole mindand suddenly they can't afford
an agency anymore.
Or they think they can't.
Or the most senior person goesto a different company, gets
replaced.
(34:18):
Revenue in the last quarter,like financial results came in,
now we can't afford the budgetthat we think.
It's so quick now that peoplechange their mind, that you
might still get ghosted, but youcan do some things to avoid it.
Harv (34:32):
Absolutely.
There's a couple of things thatjust kind of in summary for me,
kind of stand out, it's todemonstrate that value all along
throughout the process.
And just by, I think simply byeven doing that, you are, you're
being unique because I thinklike even those one pagers that
you're recommending to give tovarious members of the, of the
client team, right away, you'remaking sure that they're
(34:55):
remembering you and rememberingwhat you can do for them.
So, I think it's a great way tostand out.
Freia (35:02):
And I think as well, the the human touch, but with an
angle of getting buy in.
So as an example, I've supporteda client with a seven figure
pitch.
One of their biggest ones.
They're, they're softwaredevelopers, so they don't have
small projects.
They're all kind of at least sixfigures or if they're big, seven
figures.
And we did a war room, and wedid the whole process, like I
(35:23):
described today on this podcast.
And it turned out that, thiscompany was a father and two
sons and the father actuallykicked off the software
development project because hewanted to make sure that when he
exits the business, and/oreventually passes away,
unfortunately, they are all leftin a much better, more automated
(35:44):
state of doing things.
But then the two brothers werekind of not fully in agreement.
So more than, showing atechnical proposal, it was about
a family who wanted to securethe future of a business through
some technology.
So we had to go in with a reallyhuman, like understanding this
(36:06):
dynamic of what does everyoneneed and want and how much money
are they all comfortablespending in a family unit, which
could be even more complicatedthan just three random
directors.
So I think really knowing painpoints and what keeps them up at
night.
And, in a normal company, whatkind of pressure is their boss
putting them under?
(36:27):
are you worried that if youdon't, if we don't perform,
you're going to get sacked?
Like what, what's the scenariohere?
Like really getting under theskin of how can we make their
life easier and resolve thisproblem with them?
rather than just, you told usyou need XYZ, here's how we
would do it.
Like really go in like anadvisor and tell them what they
really need, not what they'vetold you, to make this happen.
(36:49):
And that's where the, that valuecomes in.
Oh, oh, we thought we need XYZ.
Actually, yeah, you're right.
Probably we need something else.
And here are a couple of optionsand price points, how we can
make that work.
Harv (37:01):
Definitely.
I think a lot of us go into thatprocess looking at the RFP and
looking to make sure that werespond to all those points.
And so what I really like aboutwhat you've said is that you
have to go beyond that andreally get deeper, deeper than
that, because, that's notnecessarily the full story.
That's only what they've managedto put down on paper.
I'm just wondering if there'sany other advice you'd give to
(37:22):
an agency or an ops directorthat's looking to optimize the
process, or you feel like we'vecovered most of the bases that,
that come with your advicearound pitching and new
business.
Freia (37:31):
Yeah, I think we covered a lot around the process.
So if I was an ops directorworking with sales, I think it
is really the, what should thestep by step pitch process be in
an ideal world?
Not like what's the strictprocess that we all have to
stick to?
What's best practice that meanswe can do this effectively and
without chaos.
Who should be involved so I cango away and plan resource and
(37:53):
plan resource accordingly, and Ican earmark these on a pitch for
X percent each month and thesepeople for maybe a bit less.
then also collecting pitchfeedback, I think super
important.
Actually ops directors are greatfor doing that because they
don't usually get involved inthe pitch.
The client never sees them.
and I would say, get someone,you know, objective to jump on a
(38:15):
call, half an hour, and ask somereally good questions about your
understanding of what the briefwas, how well we did in the
pitch.
Did we cover everything thatthey need?
how did we compare to otheragencies?
I am surprised, but I think in90 percent of my pitch feedback
calls, clients tell me who elsewas in the pitch.
So I know exactly who we'repitching against and the same
(38:37):
agencies come up again and againfor certain clients.
So really kind of digging intohow good was this.
We don't want to hear in anemail we were close second.
It's so annoying.
We can't do anything with that.
We want to really understandwhere we can improve.
And then over time you will seefor the, for the, you know,
different elements of a pitchwhere you need to improve.
(38:58):
If you get great feedback everytime for your ability to show
how creative you are, thenthat's great, but if you get bad
feedback on your ability toprove ROI, you need to fix that.
so I think those bits, learningfrom feedback, monitoring how
long it takes you to pitch,making the process leaner and
more efficient, and I'm not justsaying this because I'm offering
(39:21):
it as a service, but, getsomeone in for, for this war
room kind of pitch doctoring,scenario of we need a, an
objective view that representswhat the client needs to
challenge us to say, I don't getwhat you're pitching to me here.
I don't know what I'm buying.
I'm bored.
Or, you know, I don't understandhow much money you're going to
(39:42):
make me.
Literally getting someone inlike that, it could even just be
someone from within your agencywho can do that for you.
to look at the pitch and say,this is not good enough.
Harv (39:52):
Sometimes I think when you're in house, and familiar
with your own process, that canbecome hard to be so objective.
So getting somebody that's notas involved, like the Ops
Director is one approach.
But you offer this service aswell.
So you go in with an agency and,and work through that process
with them.
Is that how that works?
Freia (40:10):
Yes.
So agencies get me in, they geta brief, they've got an
opportunity.
And if it's an importantopportunity and they want to
close it, they will get me inand I will basically, help them
through the end to end processof, do we have the info that we
need from qualification andscoping to create a winning
pitch, and if not, I'll helpthem ask the right questions and
(40:30):
then do the war room.
And I'll also be the person thatthey pitch to in the rehearsal.
So I'll kind of pretend to bethe client and say, like, check
that what we know about theclient is actually covered in
the pitch deck.
So it's really just like a, anobjective partner to tell you
what you're missing because wewill fall into default and just
(40:50):
do what we've always done whenwe're stressed, and when we're
pressed for time.
So, yeah, it's, that's why it'scalled kind of doctoring.
You kind of take pieces out, addpieces in.
yeah, it's great.
It's actually a lot of fun.
If you can do it as the opsdirector, do it because it's,
it's really fun and it's like a,like an investigation into oh,
can we really win?
How do we win this?
(41:10):
It's like a strategic kind ofquest, you know, like, uh, can't
describe it.
It's, it's fun.
It's really fun.
Harv (41:18):
Absolutely.
You know, I, just reallyquickly, I didn't comment on
this when you said it earlier,but it was about using the last
few minutes of the pitch or 15minutes to actually have a
conversation with your clientsas well.
And I just wanted to come backto that point as well, because,
you know, when you get into thathabit of producing like 200
slides and you've got 50 minutesto get through them, you're,
you're ending up leavingyourself no time.
(41:40):
And then it's like, okay.
You need to leave because thenext pitch party is coming in.
So I think it's really importantto cut down on that and making
sure that you have time for thatconversation, answer those
objections right away and talkabout next steps.
So Freia, if somebody wants yourhelp with this kind of pitch
process or anything else inagency operations, where can
they find you and how can theyreach out to you?
Freia (42:02):
Yes, LinkedIn, my website, I think there's only
one, Freie Mühlenbein onLinkedIn.
yeah, just reach out, even ifyou don't know what you need or
if you just want to chat, likeyou don't need to buy anything
at all.
just, you know, a conversationabout what might be wrong with
your pitch process.
It's not just new biz, likeliterally anything around
growth.
If you're stalling, if you'vebeen at the same size for years
(42:26):
and you don't know how to getout of it, if you're not making
enough profit, like literallyanything to do with growth, ops,
sales, people, just, justcontact me on LinkedIn on my
website.
And I'm always happy to chat.
Harv (42:38):
Last question.
So we were talking about yourjourney into operations, you
know, with more and more of ushaving conversations about
operations and, more and moreevents, hopefully we're
inspiring people that want toget into the space earlier in
their careers, unlike a lot ofus that kind of stumbled into
it.
If you had to give anybodyadvice that was thinking about
moving into the space, how wouldyou tell them to approach that?
Freia (43:01):
So I think if you're in a role where you're touching a
little bit on ops, but you'renot responsible for it.
I think I would just really, Iwould talk to the person
responsible for ops, if there isone, about wanting more insight
and to, to learn.
And usually in the agency world,that is possible.
So even if you just say, I wantto learn more about operational
KPIs and how we measureefficiencies within teams, that
(43:24):
in itself is a learning curve.
And I think just voicing thatyou have an interest and to get
exposure to the types of thingsthat an ops director would look
at on ops, or even a head of, ahead of a department is, is an
ops person essentially.
asking for learningopportunities and then just join
all these communities.
I don't actually know if I'mallowed to mention any, but,
Harv (43:45):
No, please do, please do.
Freia (43:47):
Obviously, like Rob Sayles is out there with the Ops
Cohort.
That's like the, I guess, thenewest edition on, on the
market, where essentially you'rein with lots of different ops
people learning from each other,there's podcasts like this one,
there's other communities,there's conferences, I mean, the
last time we saw each other faceto face was at the Agency
Hackers Clockwork conference.
(44:08):
So I think just really look outfor where are these people,
learn from them and maybe get amentor, you know, just someone
like not paid for, even justsomeone to speak to regularly to
say.
What do I need to know?
Where do I learn it?
What have you done in yourcareer?
And then look out foropportunities and just be
(44:28):
proactive.
Harv (44:29):
Definitely, definitely.
And there's a lot of, greatconversations happening on
LinkedIn as well.
So connecting with some of thesepeople and following the kinds
of things they talk about and Ithink reaching out to them.
I think a lot of us, a lot ofpeople are just so, you know, so
friendly and willing to sharetheir knowledge as well.
So I'm sure people be very happyto jump on a call and explain
what they mean by whateverthey've posted about.
So really, really good advice.
Freia (44:51):
The ops, the agency ops community is lovely.
You know this, I stillsometimes, you know, when you
have like a, a phase ofoverthinking or imposter.
I still reach out to otherconsultants.
We're technically competitors,but no one cares.
Like I reach out and say, I'vegot this scenario.
What would you do?
Everyone always helps peoplereach out to me.
(45:13):
We help each other.
it's, it's really, really lovelyand friendly.
So just no fear of reaching out.
Harv (45:20):
That is a lovely note to stop on.
So thank you very much, Freia.
Thank you so much for joining inthis conversation.
There's so much more that youhave to say on loads of other
topics.
So I'm sure at some point, we,we would love to have you back
and we'll dive into a differenttopic.
Freia (45:36):
I'd love to come back.
Thank you so much.
Harv (45:38):
Hi all.
I hope you enjoyed thatconversation with Freia.
I've also discovered that Ican't say methodology or
methodological without twoespresso shots.
There I go again.
Pitches are loads of work.
So I love the advice Freiashared about not going down the
route of sharing dozens anddozens of tactics, nor focusing
solely on creds and methodology,but rather focusing on
(46:00):
addressing the client's problemsand demonstrating the ROI you
can help them achieve.
A few of my key takeaways weregetting deep into the
qualification process tomaximize your chances of
winning.
Creating a war room for thepitch where you discuss how
you're going to win.
And demonstrating value and inthe process be the unique and
standout agency where othersmight just be showing tactics.
(46:24):
And finally a reminder thatthere's a newsletter that goes
out every other week tocorrespond with the podcast
episode where I talk about someof my personal experiences with
the topic as well as keytakeaways from the guest
interviews so that you havesomething to reference from the
conversations that we have.
Please sign up for it atscoro.com/podcast.
That's S C O R O dot com slashpodcast.
(46:48):
Scroll down on that page to findthe newsletter signup form.
And question.
Have you shared this podcastwith others in the agency and
operation space?
Let's grow the audience.
Please share this episode with afriend or colleague that would
enjoy hearing the conversation.
I really appreciate yoursupport.
If you have any feedback, pleasereach out to me.
linkedin.com/in/harvnagra.
(47:12):
That'slinkedin.com/in/harvnagra.
And do leave a comment when Ipost this episode and its clips
on LinkedIn and share yourthoughts about what's worked
well for you.
That's it for now.
I'll speak to you in the nextepisode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!