March 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Most agencies add value far beyond execution. They develop methodologies, frameworks, and strategic thinking that help clients make better decisions. But too often, they give that thinking away for free. Only to compete on price when it’s time for execution.
Max Traylor has spent years helping agencies break this cycle. He’s an expert in packaging and selling strategy, helping agencies move from order takers to trusted advisors. In this episode, Max shares how to stop the race to the bottom and start getting paid for what you know, not just what you do.
Here’s what we cover:
- Why giving away strategy in proposals undervalues your expertise, and how to change that
- How to stop being seen as a vendor and build stronger relationships with decision-makers
- The first steps to productizing your strategy and selling it as a standalone offer
Plus, Max explains how agencies can gain access to high-level conversations, avoid being “vendorified,” and turn strategy into a scalable revenue stream.
Additional Resources:
Download Max’s book, Agency Survival Guide: https://www.maxtraylor.com/book
Follow Max on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxtraylor/
Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/
Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.
This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harv (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Handbook
(00:01):
Operations Podcast.
This podcast is brought to youby Scoro.
Scoro is a PSA or professionalservices automation platform.
Don't blame me.
I did not come up with thatlabel, but yeah it's easy for
those of us in agencies toforget that ultimately we are
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(00:22):
A PSA platform helps your agencytake a leap in maturity from
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Bringing together quoting,project and time tracking,
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(00:43):
I left my job as an in house opsdirector to work for Scoro
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Sign up for a free trial atscoro.com or if you arrange a
demo call, tell them Harv sentyou.
Now let's get to the episode.
Harv Nagra (01:29):
Hey all, welcome back to the podcast.
Today's topic is one I've wantedto cover for a while.
As our agencies grow up, a lotof us start moving beyond just
deliverables.
The website, the logo, thecampaign, and into strategy.
We develop methodologies,frameworks, and ways of thinking
that add value to our clients.
But selling that thinking,that's where a lot of us get
(01:50):
stuck.
Too often, we give it away inproposals and pitches, laying
out the roadmap for free, andhoping to recover some of the
cost in the final quote.
When the client keeps the deckfull of ideas, but doesn't sign
off the project, that reallystings.
Lately, I've also seen moreagencies rebranding as
consultancies, hoping that labelalone Is going to justify higher
(02:11):
fees, but if your process hasn'tchanged, if you're still pricing
like a vendor, competing onexecution and haven't figured
out how to sell your strategy,you're not actually capturing
the value of your expertise.
But the truth is, clients don'tjust need someone to do the
work, they do need someone tohelp them think about it, to
shape their approach, and makebetter decisions.
(02:33):
When we don't charge for thatthinking, we reinforce the idea
that strategy is free.
So how do we stop the race tothe bottom on deliverables and
start getting paid for the realvalue we bring?
How do we start to positionourselves as true partners and
not just suppliers?
That's what we're going to betackling in today's episode.
Our guest today is someone whospent years helping agencies
(02:56):
stop giving away their bestthinking for free.
Max Traylor is a consultant,speaker, and author who
specializes in helping agenciesget access to decision makers at
client accounts, as well aspackage their knowledge into
something scalable, so they cansell strategy, not just
execution.
He's the host of Beers with Maxwhere he's had unfiltered
conversations with some of thebest minds in consulting and
(03:19):
marketing.
I had the pleasure of going onhis show to talk about business
maturity a few months ago.
And he literally wrote a book onthis, Agency Survival Guide.
So today, we're going to diginto why so many agencies
struggle to monetize their bestexpertise, what it really takes
to shift from vendor to trustedadvisor and how to stop leaving
money on the table.
Let's talk to Max.
(03:40):
I'm really glad to have youhere.
first of all, I had the pleasureof joining you on your show a
little while ago, and we weresipping, we were, well, we were
drinking beers.
Sadly, I've got a glass of waterwith me today.
Anything more interesting goingon your side?
Max Traylor (03:54):
Uh, I've got a liquid death,
Harv Nagra (03:57):
Oh, right, that's your fancy water, isn't it?
Nice one.
Max Traylor (04:01):
is a fancy water, and if I went back in time, I
would start a fancy watercompany,
Harv Nagra (04:05):
Do you think?
Max Traylor (04:06):
have it going
Harv Nagra (04:07):
yeah,
Max Traylor (04:07):
like I have one of the machines that turns the
water into bubble water.
Harv Nagra (04:11):
yep.
Max Traylor (04:12):
And I'm just thinking, these things are like
three dollars.
So, it's, we could have beencleaning it up.
This shows us that marketingstill has a place in the world
because can take water, pluspackaging and branding
distribution.
They gotta be doing somethingright.
Uh, uh, placement.
So those four P's that we allused to talk about back in the
(04:34):
day.
Good for them.
Harv Nagra (04:36):
it is good business.
So, Max, I had the pleasure ofreading your book, Agency
Survival Guide, recently.
And I found it really, reallyinspiring.
So first of all, shout out toyou for writing that and well
done.
You've got a couple of booksnow, don't you?
And a couple in that series aswell.
Agency Survival Guide.
Max Traylor (04:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, uh, it, I could never finishthe first book because I was
always coming up with new ideas.
Harv Nagra (05:01):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (05:01):
So I just told myself, I'm going to write one
book many times.
Harv Nagra (05:05):
Nice.
Max Traylor (05:05):
And that was easy.
Harv Nagra (05:06):
Excellent.
Max Traylor (05:07):
I just cut it off.
Harv Nagra (05:08):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (05:08):
all right, all ideas from now on will be in,
Harv Nagra (05:11):
Volume 2, and so on.
Cool, very cool.
Max Traylor (05:14):
I'm on, I'm on the third book.
Yep.
And for the last couple ofyears, I've been really focused
on growing client accounts.
Harv Nagra (05:20):
Mm.
Max Traylor (05:20):
As agencies get larger, there's a revenue pole
shift, uh, you know, how, likethey said, uh, way, like
millions of years ago, there wasa pole shift on earth...
Harv Nagra (05:31):
Mm.
Yep.
Max Traylor (05:32):
that's why the oceans went crazy and all this.
So as an agency gets larger,they believe there's a revenue
pole shift because when you'resmall, new accounts have a much
greater impact on the overall,uh, agency revenue than growing
accounts.
Harv Nagra (05:49):
Mm.
Max Traylor (05:50):
because there's only a few accounts to grow.
Harv Nagra (05:53):
Right.
Max Traylor (05:53):
But as you get larger and as there become more
accounts, it becomes a largeropportunity to grow accounts...
Harv Nagra (06:00):
mm.
Max Traylor (06:00):
Than it does to add new accounts because every new
account that you add is like,Oh, great, you increased revenue
by 1%.
Harv Nagra (06:07):
Yep.
Max Traylor (06:07):
know, we've got a hundred clients now.
Harv Nagra (06:09):
yeah.
Max Traylor (06:09):
you can grow a hundred clients by 20%,
Harv Nagra (06:13):
Yep.
Max Traylor (06:14):
so I've been really, I've been really
hammering that and digging into,you know, how can basic
relationship building andconsultative selling be applied
to the service team?
And so that we don't see theservice team as just a net loss
and a hospice program forclients.
Harv Nagra (06:32):
before we get into it, max, I don't know, if in the
States, like, has the agencymarket been a bit difficult?
Cause like, certainly in the UK,that has...
Max Traylor (06:40):
Yeah, 20, 23, and 24 were trash.
Harv Nagra (06:42):
Okay.
So we're speaking the samelanguage in terms of like the
challenges.
There's this big fear about likeAI and everyone's scared of what
that's going to mean.
and there's so much competitionout there.
I was talking to a friend justyesterday where he was talking
about like, when they go topitch, they are pitching against
the agency that is the cheapestand nobody wants to compete
(07:03):
against them.
So it becomes like a race to thebottom in terms of pricing.
I guess my point is like, evenwhen agencies try to position
themselves as premium orstrategic, sometimes they find
themselves pitching againstthose guys.
is there a way you think you canget out of this trap?
Max Traylor (07:19):
yeah.
Stop, uh, pitching Stop the workfirst.
Yeah.
Uh, so this is pretty unanimousacross agency advisors.
I think the most prominent isprobably David Baker, with, if
you've read his book, businessof expertise, or listen to
really anything he talks aboutonly let people through the
strategy door
Harv Nagra (07:38):
Okay.
Max Traylor (07:38):
because all of the new agencies that are going to
undercut you on any sort ofdeliverable content, website
production, whatever, they'regoing to undercut you on that.
Harv Nagra (07:47):
Okay.
Max Traylor (07:48):
So you can't play this...
What my dad always said, if, youknow, if you, if you want to win
the game.
Don't play.
Uh, well, maybe I'm mixing myanalogies anyway, he said
something like that.
Harv Nagra (07:57):
Okay.
Max Traylor (07:58):
the point is that when you have the experience,
you can sell your experience.
Harv Nagra (08:02):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (08:03):
You can say, look, you're getting pitched by
agencies that are undercuttingyou.
the brief is really nonexistent.
Like you're not even at thepoint where you can.
Realistically make a good buyingdecision.
Hmm.
So let us help you clarify whatyour business objectives are.
Let us help you, understand whata proper budget would be, what
(08:23):
real expectations over the nextsix, nine months would be,
because all those people thatare undercutting you, they've
never even had a client for ninemonths.
Everything they're telling youis BS.
Harv Nagra (08:33):
Yep.
Max Traylor (08:33):
So you sell the thing that they don't have,
which is experience And, and yousay, look, fine, go ask that
agency that's, that's, uh,cheaper.
Harv Nagra (08:44):
Yep.
Max Traylor (08:44):
Go ask them to talk to the person that's gonna take
care of your account, because Iguarantee you it's somebody
super junior, Mm and gonna, uh,you're never gonna talk to the
principal that you've gotconfidence in right now.
Harv Nagra (08:55):
Yep.
Max Traylor (08:55):
And then go look at their LinkedIn profiles and look
at how long they've been doingthis.
Those are the two things.
So you, you know, you go and, ifafter those two things, you
still want to hire them, then,God bless.
Harv Nagra (09:05):
Mm.
That is a really good pointbecause I think a lot of
agencies might take it the otherway, they start with the
positioning.
So, and I think that's prettyeasy to do on the surface level.
you start calling yourself aconsultancy, you start adding a
strategy offer if you've neverhad one and think that's job
done.
But I think, first of all, thatdoesn't change anything in the
perception in terms of theclient, the client doesn't care
(09:28):
you've called yourself aconsultancy on your website and
that you've started.
Max Traylor (09:31):
The proof is in the people.
Harv Nagra (09:32):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (09:32):
So you've got a strategy offer.
You're a strategist, show metheir LinkedIn profile, show me
that they've had experience inmy industry.
So, yes, cuz I help people dothis on the, cause I help people
do for ten years, productisetheir services and position
themselves.
Um, Um and so but I thinkclients are beginning to realize
that, that there is no barrierto saying you do these things.
(09:56):
Um, you can fake case studies.
Like it's all, it all can befaked.
Like I don't trust any of the,restaurant reviews anymore.
No way.
They're clearly fake.
So what you can't fake or whatis very difficult to fake is
literally you've been doing thisfor 10 years.
And everyone's LinkedIn profileshows exactly how long you've
(10:17):
been in the workforce.
It shows exactly your roles.
So when people are like, oh, I'ma fractional CRO, and six months
ago they were an SEO consultantfor a ten person agency that's
two years old?
No.
No, no, no.
You're not allowed to do that.
Harv Nagra (10:34):
But I wonder, if there's also something there
about adding just that strategyoffer, not changing anything
else is maybe not enough.
You know, just thinking back toyour book, you were talking
about like needing to positionyourself as the decision maker
rather than the order takers.
Max Traylor (10:48):
Yeah.
I mean, you, you have to, youhave to be it right.
Like I told, I, I called my dad,and said, when I was trying to
get this job and I wasfrustrated and I was like, dad,
I can't get a job.
He said, well, Max, what do youwant to do?
And I said, I want to be aconsultant.
And he paused, was on the phoneand then he said, okay,
congratulations.
You're a consultant.
Cause all that means is you makeup the price.
(11:10):
Like you can't change yourclient's perception of you until
you change your own perception.
Harv Nagra (11:14):
Mm.
Max Traylor (11:15):
You are an advisor.
You are a consultant.
The most valuable thing that yousell and deliver is your
knowledge.
You have to believe that.
And so when you're on the phonewith a client and they say, Hey,
what do you do for people?
And you say, well, the mostvaluable thing I do for people
is I create a plan for them.
And that's what that first bookwas about is sell the plan.
Harv Nagra (11:32):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (11:33):
Because we all, uh, we all do the planning.
The most valuable thing that wecan do by the way is the plan.
Harv Nagra (11:40):
Right.
Max Traylor (11:40):
And we give away the plan in the, in the sales
process.
Harv Nagra (11:45):
And the pitch.
Max Traylor (11:46):
And what we're telling our clients is that our
planning is not valuable.
Because we didn't charge for it.
Harv Nagra (11:52):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (11:53):
What a client will do is they will look at the
number on the proposal.
There's a dollar sign.
And then they will look at thewords next to that dollar sign.
And that's what you are to them.
That is your identity.
So you could talk about being astrategic partner to your
clients all you want.
You could have 25 strategicconversations.
If the word next to the numbersays website, it says content,
it says SEO, it says anythingtactical, you are a replaceable
(12:16):
vendor, and as a vendor, you donot get an invite to the
decision maker table.
It's a conflict of interest.
You're not going to ask awebsite developer what they
should spend more money on.
Harv Nagra (12:26):
Mm.
Max Traylor (12:27):
You know what the answer is going to be.
Harv Nagra (12:28):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (12:29):
So it's, it's all, it's all about, believing in
yourself and then creating thatperception and the reality that
the most valuable thing you dofor clients is give them access
to your knowledge.
Harv Nagra (12:45):
I really love that, Max.
so my question is like, whenyou're thinking about this, is
there two levels there?
Cause the client might come tosomebody with a brief on a
particular project, right?
So there's this strategy that'sinvolved in that project.
So, I'm just wondering if you'resaying that can also be part of
what you do or, you know, Ithink what I was getting from
(13:06):
reading your book was that youshould also try to get in and be
sitting with the client makingall the decisions about all
their projects.
Is there two levels or do you,are you suggesting just go for
that big one?
Max Traylor (13:19):
There are transactional clients and there
are strategic clients.
There, there are clients, I'mnot going to use the word, but
there are a certain type ofsomeone.
Harv Nagra (13:26):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (13:27):
That, well, it rhymes with narcissist.
Harv Nagra (13:31):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (13:32):
That will always see you as lesser than them.
And so you could say, look, I'ma strategist and you really need
help with the planning tillyou're blue in the face.
they're going to go, no, no I'mthe brilliant decision maker
here.
I wear the pants and I've got$20, 000.
would you like the$20, 000 to dothis tactical thing?
Harv Nagra (13:51):
hmm.
Mm
Max Traylor (13:52):
And as a business owner, You have to decide if
you're willing to take that.
Harv Nagra (13:55):
hmm.
Max Traylor (13:56):
Now, before COVID, when I wrote that book,
Harv Nagra (13:59):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (13:59):
I was on team do not take that business.
Harv Nagra (14:01):
Mm.
Max Traylor (14:03):
but boy, did that change.
And it didn't change in thefirst two years after COVID
everything was fine.
Agency business got better in21, 22, Okay.
but 23 and 24, budgets tightenedup It's the era of do more with
less.
Harv Nagra (14:15):
Mm-hmm
Max Traylor (14:16):
lot of businesses are going, look, I have to take
that$20, 000 to do the tacticalthing.
Um, and so, now I'm on team...
Look, that's fine.
Take the business, but don'tsacrifice your process.
Let's take websites.
For example, websites are amiserable experience in my
opinion, but if done correctly,they can lead to a better
(14:37):
relationship.
So if a client says, I want youto build my website and you say,
well, I'd really like to startwith strategy first to make
sure, that is actually going tohave the biggest impact on your
business.
Uh, you know, we'll look at someother things.
Strategic clients will go, wow,thank you.
I would like to clarify thebusiness case for this extremely
expensive website.
mm Other clients will say, nope.
(14:58):
We're good.
Do you want the 20 grand for thewebsite or not?
So those are clients that needto feel like they're in control.
With those clients you sayperfect.
We're the we're the we're thebest company to do your website,
Sign here.
Would you like to You know learnabout our process or are you
ready to just get startedbecause even for a tactical
(15:21):
project do not sacrifice yourprocess.
You're still going to dostrategic work.
You're still going to do, uh, Icall them an alignment workshop,
but understand where thatwebsite fits in the context of
their other marketing activityin the context of their business
strategy.
Harv Nagra (15:38):
Mm-hmm
Max Traylor (15:39):
I don't care what you're being signed on for.
Do the strategy first.
Harv Nagra (15:43):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (15:43):
I've just become a lot more open to how you get
that initial deal because peopleare hurting, uh, from 23 and 24.
Harv Nagra (15:51):
Yeah, so I was gonna say, for somebody that hasn't,
uh, read the book that was kindof the point that you should
focus on being the strategicpartner and not touch
implementation.
Max Traylor (16:03):
I mean, profit gets harder, the more implementation
work that you do.
That's all.
as long as you have thatwarning, know, like skydiving is
dangerous.
I'm not going to tellprofessional skydivers to stop
doing what they love,
Harv Nagra (16:15):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (16:17):
but don't come to me and say, Oh, I can't believe
Darren broke both his legs.
I'm like, you're jumping out ofplane.
Harv Nagra (16:22):
Mm.
Max Traylor (16:23):
taking on that risk.
You know what I mean?
Harv Nagra (16:25):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (16:25):
So, uh, yeah, I mean, great, make your money.
Harv Nagra (16:28):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Max Traylor (16:30):
But in, in a professional service, low margin
business, which is high, that'swhat agencies are...
Harv Nagra (16:35):
hmm.
Max Traylor (16:35):
churn and upsell are the thing.
That's what you live and die by.
And if you're, if you'reperceived as a tactical
marketing person,you're notgoing to get into conversations
and opportunities for upsell.
Harv Nagra (16:48):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (16:49):
just not.
Harv Nagra (16:49):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (16:50):
So even when 90% of your business is tactical
implementation, you still haveto have a way to have grownup
business conversations.
And the easiest way to do thatis to sell your expertise.
Because if your clients arepaying for your expertise,
they're going to bring theirdecision makers.
Harv Nagra (17:08):
Mm.
Max Traylor (17:08):
it's also, you know, if you've got big
accounts, if a client is payingyou million dollars a year and
you say, look, I, I really wantyour entire, uh, leadership team
to come to this workshop to makesure that you're getting the
most out of your milliondollars.
Yeah.
They're going to pay attention.
But challenge is in that middlearea where they're going to
perceive you and try tomarginalize you as just, Oh,
you're, you're just this, youknow, you're just these
(17:30):
marketing people that do ourbidding and you have that point
of contact that's always thegatekeeper.
And they don't want to let youtalk to their boss or someone in
sales.
And so it's just, it's, it'sjust ridiculous.
And, uh, And it's like a hospiceprogram.
You're just waiting for thatclient to die.
And so we've gotta, we've gottalike not just deliver.
(17:51):
We've got to recognize that thebiggest sales opportunity is
within those clients.
So how do we upskill ourselves?
How do we change perception?
Harv Nagra (17:58):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (17:58):
How do we get access to some of those other
budget holding decision makersso that we can grow those
accounts?
Harv Nagra (18:03):
Yeah, Max, that's what I wanted to get into next.
It's like, how do you even getyour foot in the door to start
doing this?
Maybe you can just outline thata little bit more.
Cause you might have theseexisting relationships with
clients that have done businesswith you in the past and
somebody new comes to you with afull RFP, right.
So how do you start indicatingthat this is going to be like a
(18:23):
separate stage and it's going tobe paid and we're not doing all
of this strategy beforehand aspart of the proposal that we're
putting in.
Max Traylor (18:32):
Um, well, so, so these are, these are like the
signals that you sent.
So the first one that I look foris the roles.
Harv Nagra (18:37):
Okay.
Max Traylor (18:38):
Right.
So even if you're not chargingfor it, let's, let's say you've
got it.
You've had a client for 10years, most agencies haven't had
clients for 10 years, but let'ssay you've spent 10 years
telegraphing Mm that you're a,uh, a tactical, know, uh, agency
that draws their pictures,
Harv Nagra (18:55):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (18:55):
get, let's get crazy with it.
We draw your pictures, you know,we're super marginalised.
We're like kept in a dark roomsomewhere.
Harv Nagra (19:00):
Uh huh.
Max Traylor (19:00):
Question is, how do we get conversations with, say,
the head of sales...
Harv Nagra (19:04):
hmm.
Mm
Max Traylor (19:05):
Who thinks we're crayon pushers and don't deserve
our time of day.
Harv Nagra (19:09):
hmm.
Max Traylor (19:09):
So the first is roles.
'cause someone's gonna have toreach out to that person.
Harv Nagra (19:14):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (19:15):
And if the someone that reaches out to that person,
is, Corey, the crayon pusher,they're gonna be no way.
so I would look at the roles.
Harv Nagra (19:23):
Okay.
Max Traylor (19:24):
The easiest way to get to somebody is to have a
role that speaks to them.
Harv Nagra (19:28):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (19:28):
Hey, I'm the head of sales.
I'm the head of sales at myagency.
I'm the agency sales advisor.
Um, I'm the growth advisor, justsomething that says, I know the
position you're in, and we'renot going to have some tactical
conversation about marketing.
So the, the roles is one of thefirst things, uh, that I look at
(19:49):
and you can't fake roles.
You can't say, Oh, I'm the salesgrowth advisor.
And then your last four titleswere Corey, the crayon pusher.
Harv Nagra (19:57):
Yeah Yeah
Max Traylor (19:58):
This is where there's often a gap in
expertise.
And so for some agencies, youhave to get the agency principal
involved.
Cause if you're running abusiness, generally you're, uh,
you know, you've got thegravitas, you've got access to
have a grownup conversation withother business owners.
You're in the business ownerclub.
It doesn't matter what kind ofbusiness, you're in the business
(20:18):
owner club.
Um, so, you know, a lot ofagencies pride themselves that
our founder, uh, our agencyprincipal has gotten out of
services.
Harv Nagra (20:28):
Yeah
Max Traylor (20:29):
That's all fine in principle, but they are like
professor upsell.
So we got to design someexperiences where they can come
in simply to get the presence ofthe client's budget holding
decision makers.
I would recommend that happenson a quarterly basis.
Harv Nagra (20:44):
Okay
Max Traylor (20:45):
you've got to have, a reason for them to go that is
more than just, Oh, so and so isgoing to be there.
Cause otherwise, why wouldn'tyou just pick up the phone and
call that person?
So the universally valuablething Mhm to any client, any
client's decision maker, andultimately you want to get, if
you're marketing, you want toexpand your relationships to
(21:07):
sales, product, and finance.
Harv Nagra (21:09):
Mhm
Max Traylor (21:10):
Those are like the four horsemen, the, the, the
three, uh, other areas where youcould, uh, where you could get
budget from.
And so you have to findsomething universally valuable
that you can talk about thatbenefits all four of those
departments.
Has nothing to do withmarketing.
Harv Nagra (21:24):
Mhm
Max Traylor (21:25):
But if you can, this is why I love industry
benchmarks, because if you cometo the table and you say, Hey,
we've been researching, andwe've got insights on what your
buyers are spending money ontheir challenges, their
opportunities, the trends intheir industry.
Everyone's going to go.
Yeah, I want to know that...
Harv Nagra (21:41):
I love that
Max Traylor (21:41):
this is why agencies do annual events for
all of their, uh, for all oftheir clients.
Harv Nagra (21:46):
They bring
Max Traylor (21:46):
industry research.
You can incorporate that intoyour quarterly business reviews.
You can incorporate that into a,uh, a separate, uh, sort of a
virtual event for your clients.
Um, but we have to think outsideof our marketing box and think,
okay, how can we add value toeverybody?
And I think research and buyerinsights is probably the easiest
(22:08):
first step.
Harv Nagra (22:09):
Right.
Okay.
So you got your foot in thedoor.
You've had those conversations.
You demonstrate that value andthen you've got that
relationship so you can startselling your strategic...
Max Traylor (22:18):
Well, you've got access.
I wouldn't say you've got therelationship yet.
Harv Nagra (22:22):
Okay.
Max Traylor (22:22):
Um, because first you need access, and then they
need to tell you what'simportant to them, which is also
why I love research, because ifthey want to contribute to the
research, it, you know, it'llmake it better.
So...
Harv Nagra (22:35):
good point.
Max Traylor (22:35):
You're gonna ask the head of product, you're
gonna ask the head of sales,you're gonna ask the head of
finance.
Hey, what are your biggestchallenges?
What are the things that are onyour roadmap for the year?
That's where the upsellopportunities come, and that's
what the best relationships arebased off of is how can I is
when somebody perceives that youunderstand what is most
important to them.
And that's the first step is toget them talking about what is
(22:59):
most important to them.
And I guarantee it has nothingto do with marketing.
Harv Nagra (23:03):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (23:04):
Your job is to listen and create that bridge.
Harv Nagra (23:07):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (23:07):
Hey, you're launching a new product.
That's, that's the biggest thingon, you know, on your milestone.
How can we help?
Maybe we could do some buyerresearch to tell you if they
liked the color purple or thecolor blue, would that be
helpful?
Harv Nagra (23:20):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (23:21):
However you can add value to those other
relationships to maintain youraccess and keep your ears open
are the best salesopportunities.
They're far better than net new,because you already know the
players, you already know theyhave budget.
You already have budget salesevents in your quarterly
business reviews.
So just gotta get talking tothese people.
(23:42):
It's often a question I ask,hey, marketing agency, how many
conversations do you have thathave nothing to do with
marketing?
Okay, that's a problem.
Harv Nagra (23:49):
Mm hmm.
So, when it comes to that kindof strategic offer, what kind,
can, can you tell us maybe thekinds of things that could be
sold as part of that?
just painting us a picture, thatis not just one line in a quote
that says strategy...
Max Traylor (24:05):
So generally, the first thing that people have
that is strategic is an audit
Harv Nagra (24:10):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (24:11):
Audits are trash.
Like if you so we've all hadthat client that's like, Look, I
already know it's broken.
I don't need to pay you to tellyou that it's broken.
Harv Nagra (24:20):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (24:21):
So the problem with audits is they're incomplete.
Like why would you auditsomething without putting
together the plan or a roadmapfor, for how to solve that?
So you can easily just tag on a,a roadmap or a set of
recommendations to the audit.
Uh, and it's a much morevaluable, uh, it's a much more
you could, and a strategy is aplan, right?
So there you go, there's yourstrategy offer.
(24:42):
Uh, By the way, that's exactlywhat happens in the sales
process.
Your, your audit is theconversations that you're having
and the roadmap is yourproposal.
So you're already doing that onefor free.
First book, Hey, sell the plan,take that, break it off, sell
that for five, 10, 000,something that has single
signature authority.
That the CEO or someone that hasbudget can purchase without
(25:05):
going through the three monthsof having to get a whole
committee to agree to it.
Um, another standalone offer isan alignment workshop.
So this is, this is verystrategic, but is the perfect
way to start.
And that is to say, okay, uh,you've got this brief here.
The brief looks like trash.
The reality is you've neverpurchased anything like this
before, the decision makers,like your leadership team isn't
(25:28):
even on the same page.
Harv Nagra (25:29):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (25:30):
Um, I would really love to help you like get
everybody on the same page,align on what is most important
and then show you where the gapsare in this plan.
Like what, what should the goalsbe?
What are the team roles?
What's the timeline of activity?
And let's clarify what the gapis that a third party vendor is
going to try and solve.
So that alignment workshop isalso a standalone offer that you
(25:53):
can do, you know, couple hours,five grand, 10 grand as a single
thing.
I like to combine those threeas, as the first, three to five
week, uh, three to five weekstrategic offer.
You do an alignment workshop todetermine what's most important.
You benchmark their capabilitiesin that area that is most
important.
And then you create a strategicroadmap of the things that
(26:16):
you're going to do to capturethat most important opportunity
and fill the gaps.
It takes about three to fiveweeks.
You could charge, well, I don'tknow, know, some, some people
charge like a hundred grand forthat, but,
Harv Nagra (26:26):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (26:28):
you know, 10 to 10 to 20 grand.
And that roadmap of opportunitybecomes your upsell roadmap.
Harv Nagra (26:35):
Mm.
Max Traylor (26:36):
That's your account plan.
That's your upsell roadmap.
You remind the client of thatevery time you meet.
And all of a sudden at the endof the first quarter, you're not
saying, Hey, can I upsell yousomething?
The conversation is now, hey,are we ready to do the next
thing that we've been talkingabout for three months?
Harv Nagra (26:49):
Yeah.
I really, really love that.
Max Traylor (26:53):
yeah.
And then, so the, the otherthing I would say is that, uh,
agencies are, comicallydelusional about their QBRs,
quarterly business reviews,
Harv Nagra (27:06):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (27:07):
the whole point is to listen to a client, talk
about their business objectives,and for us to align our
capabilities with their businessobjectives, 90 percent of those
meetings and agency principalswill say, Oh yeah, we do that.
We do great.
We do great QBRs.
Um, yeah, look at your deck.
If it's got 50 slides of chartsand graphs and numbers.
(27:30):
Mm That's you making apresentation of tactical sh*t.
Then you look at your recordedcalls.
AI can tell you how much youtalk versus they talk.
If you're talking 90 percent ofthe time, it's not a
conversation.
Mm hmm.
They should be doing themajority of the talking.
Harv Nagra (27:43):
Right.
Max Traylor (27:44):
So it's the primary way of maintaining alignment and
maintaining your businessrelationship with a client.
Uh, agencies are completelydelusional because generally the
principal hasn't done one ofthose.
Harv Nagra (27:56):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (27:57):
believes it's being done that way.
And it just isn't
Harv Nagra (28:02):
So Max, like, you know, if you get into that kind
of a situation where you areable to offer this as a, as
this, like, I don't want to saystandalone service, but if there
was a separation ofimplementation, um, what, what's
my question just slipped mymind.
Max Traylor (28:21):
it, it, and yes, like I've got clients right now
where it's a standalone service
Harv Nagra (28:25):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (28:26):
and I've got clients that are like, Hey, we
don't want to make it astandalone service.
Our, uh, our, our clientengagements are big enough.
We just want to keep them andupsell them.
Harv Nagra (28:36):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (28:36):
they're doing this as just a cost of keeping the
client, and the cost of upsell,which is significantly lower
than the cost of a new sale.
Harv Nagra (28:44):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I remember what I was going tosay now.
Uh, there was something that Iwas reading about you saying,
that you can also like throughall this work, become the person
that helps them assess thevendors...
Max Traylor (28:54):
Yeah.
So if the worst thing that couldhappen is for you to be
vendorified...
Harv Nagra (28:58):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (28:58):
I put this into my second book, uh, it's in the
Urban Dictionary.
Harv Nagra (29:02):
Hmm.
Okay.
Max Traylor (29:03):
To be vendorified is when you go from being a
strategic partner, you getrelegated to being a vendor.
Yeah.
Um, the best way to tell aclient that you're not a vendor
is to add vendor evaluation toyour strategy offer.
Harv Nagra (29:18):
That's brilliant.
Max Traylor (29:19):
Right.
So remember the strategy offeris we align on what's most
important, we benchmark yourcapabilities, and we create a
roadmap for solving thatproblem.
Well, in that roadmap, a part ofthe plan is, Hey, you don't have
the skills to do some of thesethings.
hmm.
Here are the people we think youshould hire and how to evaluate
them.
Harv Nagra (29:36):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (29:38):
Client's not going to look at us as a vendor,
because we're literally sayingwe can help you evaluate other
vendors.
Harv Nagra (29:44):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (29:44):
if they've never hired somebody for marketing and
they've never worked with,either internally or third
party.
Harv Nagra (29:51):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (29:51):
The education or the training on what to look out
for, how to evaluate vendors.
I mean, that's like extreme.
That's like the most importantthing that you could do.
Hey, you're now entering a worldwhere you're going to spend
money.
You're going to get burned.
Harv Nagra (30:05):
Mm
Max Traylor (30:06):
It's crazy out there.
And everyone looks like theyknow what they're doing they're,
you know, they're marketers.
They got a nice website.
Harv Nagra (30:12):
Very, very good point.
Um, so you, you, I think yousaid, a bit earlier in the call
about pro well, we were talkingabout productization briefly,
but strategy being productized.
Does that work?
And how does that work?
Max Traylor (30:25):
Well, anything can be productized.
And I use the word productisedas a big word, cause it sounds
smart.
Harv Nagra (30:31):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (30:31):
but really it just means you do the same thing for
the same people, for the sameprice.
Harv Nagra (30:35):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (30:37):
Things, steps, fees.
It is more of a mindset.
So the services mindset is wejust, you know, we just do
whatever is most valuable forthe client.
Harv Nagra (30:49):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (30:49):
And we know that the profit margin is going to go
up and down.
It's wildly unpredictable.
Mm Um, the opposite of that istreating it like a product.
Like it's on an assembly line.
The exact same amount ofmaterial goes in.
It looks the same every time.
There's product standards.
It's probably made on anassembly line.
So the more you can think ofyour service as consistent
(31:12):
deliverables, consistentprocess, consistent fees, the
more profitable you're going tobe, the better positioned you're
going to be because people cansay, Oh, I know exactly what you
do.
You make shoes.
I know what they look like.
They go on your feet.
It's not like, well, what do youdo?
It's like, oh, it depends.
Do you want shoes on your handsor shoes on your feet?
No, we know what you frickingdo.
(31:32):
Um, and, and it's much easier toset and meet client
expectations.
I mean, that's just a servicebetter business.
Harv Nagra (31:40):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (31:41):
Um, and so can strategy be productized?
Absolutely.
Here are the steps we gothrough.
hmm.
Here are, uh, here's what theclient gets and what the client
does not get.
Harv Nagra (31:50):
Mm
Max Traylor (31:50):
Here's the timeline.
We know what it costs.
Productized.
Harv Nagra (31:55):
Yeah.
Excellent.
So Max, if someone's listeningand they're thinking, this is
what I want to do, being morestrategic and selling that as a,
as part of their offer, where doyou think you would advise that
they should get started?
Like what are the first steps?
Max Traylor (32:08):
Here's the first thing that you should do.
It's the most powerful thing youcan do.
Go to your clients and ask themone question.
What is the least valuable thingthat we do for you?
Harv Nagra (32:16):
Mm.
Max Traylor (32:17):
That's a question to ask.
So what that's going to do is,It's going to help you with
profitability
Harv Nagra (32:22):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (32:24):
and a CEO did this the other day and called me up
and he was like, yeah, they saidit was the QBRs, the quarterly
business reviews.
Harv Nagra (32:31):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (32:32):
The most strategic thing that you're supposed to be
doing.
That's the least valuable.
And they said like, yeah, youguys are just like reporting
stuff to us.
Uh, we really need you thinkingsix, 12 months down the line.
And I was just like lapping itup.
I'm like, yeah, I told ya.
But it's a really good questionbecause it's only something that
a strategic partner would ask.
Mm Vendors don't ask that.
(32:53):
Vendors are like, hey, whatshould we stop doing for you?
A vendor would never ask that.
Harv Nagra (32:57):
You might be afraid to ask that, actually.
Max Traylor (32:58):
Well, they're terrified.
Harv Nagra (32:59):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (33:00):
terrified of losing clients.
Actually, this is for anotherthing, but my theory is that
most are just terrified of beingexposed because deep down they
believe that they're notactually adding any value.
Harv Nagra (33:10):
Right.
Max Traylor (33:10):
That's a different problem, but that's what I think
the reality is.
sorry, if it cut too deep forsome...
Harv Nagra (33:16):
no.
Max Traylor (33:18):
Go find something valuable.
Harv Nagra (33:19):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (33:20):
so that's number one.
Harv Nagra (33:22):
Okay.
Max Traylor (33:22):
Number 2 is, the next time, the next time you
have a sales opportunity, sellthe, the proposal process.
You already do the proposalprocess.
So don't give me this like, Oh,I don't know what I should do.
Like you sell your exactproposal process.
You put a$5, 000 tag on it.
Just start at five.
The pricing doesn't matter.
So just start at five.
Um, those are the two thingsthat you should do.
Harv Nagra (33:42):
Mm.
And then be brave with this andtry it.
Max Traylor (33:46):
Yeah, be brave.
That's the mindset.
Be strong.
Harv Nagra (33:50):
Nice.
Max Traylor (33:50):
It's not rocket science.
Harv Nagra (33:51):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (33:51):
You can read any book on, on what agencies should
do better.
They're all going to say sellstrategic work.
They're all going to say, haveadult conversations with budget,
holding decision makers.
So like, none of this is like,Oh my God.
So the real challenge is like,what is holding people back
psychologically?
(34:12):
Uh, and it's something inbetween imposter syndrome when,
when they have the skills andthey're just not being
recognized or they literallydon't have the skills yet and
they're not adding value,they're avoiding having that
conversation because the onlyway to get past that is to have
A real adult conversation withyour clients because they'll
tell you what would be reallyvaluable.
(34:33):
but it might be, you got to beopen to the fact that it might
not be what you're doing rightnow.
Harv Nagra (34:37):
I think there's just that element of fear also that
the other guy is going to becheaper and how are you going to
get your foot in the door?
But I think the point is youjust have to start and try it
and you'll learn something alongthe way.
And, you know..
Max Traylor (34:49):
Yeah, Or, or do it for, or do it for existing
clients.
So there's nothing stopping youfrom going like if you do not,
if currently you go to your bestclient, if you do not have an
understanding of what theirpriority initiatives are,
initiatives mean projects, butthey're serious projects...
Harv Nagra (35:06):
yeah.
Max Traylor (35:06):
for clients, things that they have said, okay, we're
going to spend money on this.
There's success and failurecriteria.
Someone's been assigned to this,that that's called an
initiative.
And when people planstrategically, there's like,
there's a roadmap that is okay,2025.
Here's what we're trying toaccomplish in Q2, Q3, Q4.
So you got to get your hands onthat, then you've got a, you've
got to say, okay, here's how wecan add the most value during
(35:30):
those quarters.
So that's your objective.
Every client should have that.
It's called an account plan.
Harv Nagra (35:34):
hmm.
Max Traylor (35:35):
Every client should have that little roadmap, um, go
build that with your client.
And I would say if you don'thave it for an existing client,
don't even charge for it thefirst time, go build that with
them.
Cause like your account's indanger by the way.
Harv Nagra (35:52):
Yeah.
Mm
Max Traylor (35:53):
build that for them.
And then after you've done ittwo or three times, have a third
party go interview those clientsand ask them the same question.
What's the least valuable thingwe do for you?
What's the most valuable thingthey do for you?
And I guarantee that thoseconversations where you're
helping them think into thefuture and make grownup
decisions, those are going to besome of the most valuable things
you do.
Now you've got the confidence.
Now you can start to weaponizethat in the sales process as
(36:16):
like, Oh yeah, those other cheapguys, they're gonna, they're
gonna try and sell you a cheapcontent package.
Yeah.
We've learned, you know, wereally want to help you think.
Harv Nagra (36:26):
Really, really good advice.
So, Max, we're coming up towardsthe end now.
Where can people connect withyou and learn more about what
you do?
Max Traylor (36:34):
Oh, LinkedIn, LinkedIn.
I,
Harv Nagra (36:35):
linkedIn.
Max Traylor (36:36):
I'm a one trick pony.
Harv Nagra (36:37):
Excellent.
Okay.
Max Traylor (36:38):
I'm out there.
I'm on LinkedIn.
Harv Nagra (36:40):
Excellent.
Max Traylor (36:40):
Spittin' uh, some occasionally offensive stuff.
Harv Nagra (36:44):
No, very, very informative and interesting
stuff and loads of video contentas well, which I love.
So definitely I will put a linkto your profile in the episode
notes and Max, it's been anabsolute pleasure having you on
today.
Max Traylor (36:57):
Thank you for, thank you for having me.
Harv Nagra (36:59):
And I need to read the next book.
Max Traylor (37:00):
I apologize
Harv Nagra (37:01):
No, I'm not offended, but I need a copy of
that second book so we can bookin our follow up session at some
point.
Max Traylor (37:07):
Yeah.
Consultant survival guide.
Harv Nagra (37:09):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Hi again all just a fewreflections from me before we
wrap up.
If you've struggled to sell yourthinking rather than the doing I
hope you took some things awayfrom that conversation with Max.
My key takeaways, If a clientsees you as a vendor, you'll
always be replaceable, the bestway to change that perception,
(37:30):
start charging for strategy, notjust giving it away in the sales
process.
Number two, your role at thetable is only as strong as the
relationships you build.
If you're only talking to yourclient's marketing team, you're
missing out on conversationswith sales, product, and
finance, people who may behugely influential in the
decision and could also beholding the budget.
(37:51):
And number three, if you want tostart shifting towards a more
strategic role, ask your clientsa simple but powerful question:
what's the least valuable thingwe do for you?
The answer might surprise youand could be guiding your way
towards offering what is trulyneeded.
If you enjoyed this episode,please take a moment to share it
with someone in your network whowould appreciate it.
(38:13):
And if you haven't already, I'dreally appreciate it if you
could rate and review the show.
And don't forget to sign up forthe Handbook Newsletter, where
we share a cheat sheet of thekey takeaways from each episode
So you can go reference theideas at a later time.
Go to scoro.com/podcast, scrolldown and you'll find where to
put in your email.
(38:33):
That's it for me.
I'll be back with the nextepisode soon.
Thanks for listening to The Handbook
(00:01):
Operations Podcast.
This podcast is brought to youby Scoro.
Scoro is a PSA or professionalservices automation platform.
Don't blame me.
I did not come up with thatlabel, but yeah it's easy for
those of us in agencies toforget that ultimately we are
professional services businessesin the business of selling time.
(00:22):
A PSA platform helps your agencytake a leap in maturity from
disjointed tools andspreadsheets that don't talk to
one another, to a single sourceof truth for your business.
Bringing together quoting,project and time tracking,
invoicing and reporting into onebeautiful place so you don't
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from several different places.
(00:43):
I left my job as an in house opsdirector to work for Scoro
because I was so impressed.
Sign up for a free trial atscoro.com or if you arrange a
demo call, tell them Harv sentyou.
Now let's get to the episode.
Harv Nagra (01:29):
Hey all, welcome back to the podcast.
Today's topic is one I've wantedto cover for a while.
As our agencies grow up, a lotof us start moving beyond just
deliverables.
The website, the logo, thecampaign, and into strategy.
We develop methodologies,frameworks, and ways of thinking
that add value to our clients.
But selling that thinking,that's where a lot of us get
(01:50):
stuck.
Too often, we give it away inproposals and pitches, laying
out the roadmap for free, andhoping to recover some of the
cost in the final quote.
When the client keeps the deckfull of ideas, but doesn't sign
off the project, that reallystings.
Lately, I've also seen moreagencies rebranding as
consultancies, hoping that labelalone Is going to justify higher
(02:11):
fees, but if your process hasn'tchanged, if you're still pricing
like a vendor, competing onexecution and haven't figured
out how to sell your strategy,you're not actually capturing
the value of your expertise.
But the truth is, clients don'tjust need someone to do the
work, they do need someone tohelp them think about it, to
shape their approach, and makebetter decisions.
(02:33):
When we don't charge for thatthinking, we reinforce the idea
that strategy is free.
So how do we stop the race tothe bottom on deliverables and
start getting paid for the realvalue we bring?
How do we start to positionourselves as true partners and
not just suppliers?
That's what we're going to betackling in today's episode.
Our guest today is someone whospent years helping agencies
(02:56):
stop giving away their bestthinking for free.
Max Traylor is a consultant,speaker, and author who
specializes in helping agenciesget access to decision makers at
client accounts, as well aspackage their knowledge into
something scalable, so they cansell strategy, not just
execution.
He's the host of Beers with Maxwhere he's had unfiltered
conversations with some of thebest minds in consulting and
(03:19):
marketing.
I had the pleasure of going onhis show to talk about business
maturity a few months ago.
And he literally wrote a book onthis, Agency Survival Guide.
So today, we're going to diginto why so many agencies
struggle to monetize their bestexpertise, what it really takes
to shift from vendor to trustedadvisor and how to stop leaving
money on the table.
Let's talk to Max.
(03:40):
I'm really glad to have youhere.
first of all, I had the pleasureof joining you on your show a
little while ago, and we weresipping, we were, well, we were
drinking beers.
Sadly, I've got a glass of waterwith me today.
Anything more interesting goingon your side?
Max Traylor (03:54):
Uh, I've got a liquid death,
Harv Nagra (03:57):
Oh, right, that's your fancy water, isn't it?
Nice one.
Max Traylor (04:01):
is a fancy water, and if I went back in time, I
would start a fancy watercompany,
Harv Nagra (04:05):
Do you think?
Max Traylor (04:06):
have it going
Harv Nagra (04:07):
yeah,
Max Traylor (04:07):
like I have one of the machines that turns the
water into bubble water.
Harv Nagra (04:11):
yep.
Max Traylor (04:12):
And I'm just thinking, these things are like
three dollars.
So, it's, we could have beencleaning it up.
This shows us that marketingstill has a place in the world
because can take water, pluspackaging and branding
distribution.
They gotta be doing somethingright.
Uh, uh, placement.
So those four P's that we allused to talk about back in the
(04:34):
day.
Good for them.
Harv Nagra (04:36):
it is good business.
So, Max, I had the pleasure ofreading your book, Agency
Survival Guide, recently.
And I found it really, reallyinspiring.
So first of all, shout out toyou for writing that and well
done.
You've got a couple of booksnow, don't you?
And a couple in that series aswell.
Agency Survival Guide.
Max Traylor (04:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, uh, it, I could never finishthe first book because I was
always coming up with new ideas.
Harv Nagra (05:01):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (05:01):
So I just told myself, I'm going to write one
book many times.
Harv Nagra (05:05):
Nice.
Max Traylor (05:05):
And that was easy.
Harv Nagra (05:06):
Excellent.
Max Traylor (05:07):
I just cut it off.
Harv Nagra (05:08):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (05:08):
all right, all ideas from now on will be in,
Harv Nagra (05:11):
Volume 2, and so on.
Cool, very cool.
Max Traylor (05:14):
I'm on, I'm on the third book.
Yep.
And for the last couple ofyears, I've been really focused
on growing client accounts.
Harv Nagra (05:20):
Mm.
Max Traylor (05:20):
As agencies get larger, there's a revenue pole
shift, uh, you know, how, likethey said, uh, way, like
millions of years ago, there wasa pole shift on earth...
Harv Nagra (05:31):
Mm.
Yep.
Max Traylor (05:32):
that's why the oceans went crazy and all this.
So as an agency gets larger,they believe there's a revenue
pole shift because when you'resmall, new accounts have a much
greater impact on the overall,uh, agency revenue than growing
accounts.
Harv Nagra (05:49):
Mm.
Max Traylor (05:50):
because there's only a few accounts to grow.
Harv Nagra (05:53):
Right.
Max Traylor (05:53):
But as you get larger and as there become more
accounts, it becomes a largeropportunity to grow accounts...
Harv Nagra (06:00):
mm.
Max Traylor (06:00):
Than it does to add new accounts because every new
account that you add is like,Oh, great, you increased revenue
by 1%.
Harv Nagra (06:07):
Yep.
Max Traylor (06:07):
know, we've got a hundred clients now.
Harv Nagra (06:09):
yeah.
Max Traylor (06:09):
you can grow a hundred clients by 20%,
Harv Nagra (06:13):
Yep.
Max Traylor (06:14):
so I've been really, I've been really
hammering that and digging into,you know, how can basic
relationship building andconsultative selling be applied
to the service team?
And so that we don't see theservice team as just a net loss
and a hospice program forclients.
Harv Nagra (06:32):
before we get into it, max, I don't know, if in the
States, like, has the agencymarket been a bit difficult?
Cause like, certainly in the UK,that has...
Max Traylor (06:40):
Yeah, 20, 23, and 24 were trash.
Harv Nagra (06:42):
Okay.
So we're speaking the samelanguage in terms of like the
challenges.
There's this big fear about likeAI and everyone's scared of what
that's going to mean.
and there's so much competitionout there.
I was talking to a friend justyesterday where he was talking
about like, when they go topitch, they are pitching against
the agency that is the cheapestand nobody wants to compete
(07:03):
against them.
So it becomes like a race to thebottom in terms of pricing.
I guess my point is like, evenwhen agencies try to position
themselves as premium orstrategic, sometimes they find
themselves pitching againstthose guys.
is there a way you think you canget out of this trap?
Max Traylor (07:19):
yeah.
Stop, uh, pitching Stop the workfirst.
Yeah.
Uh, so this is pretty unanimousacross agency advisors.
I think the most prominent isprobably David Baker, with, if
you've read his book, businessof expertise, or listen to
really anything he talks aboutonly let people through the
strategy door
Harv Nagra (07:38):
Okay.
Max Traylor (07:38):
because all of the new agencies that are going to
undercut you on any sort ofdeliverable content, website
production, whatever, they'regoing to undercut you on that.
Harv Nagra (07:47):
Okay.
Max Traylor (07:48):
So you can't play this...
What my dad always said, if, youknow, if you, if you want to win
the game.
Don't play.
Uh, well, maybe I'm mixing myanalogies anyway, he said
something like that.
Harv Nagra (07:57):
Okay.
Max Traylor (07:58):
the point is that when you have the experience,
you can sell your experience.
Harv Nagra (08:02):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (08:03):
You can say, look, you're getting pitched by
agencies that are undercuttingyou.
the brief is really nonexistent.
Like you're not even at thepoint where you can.
Realistically make a good buyingdecision.
Hmm.
So let us help you clarify whatyour business objectives are.
Let us help you, understand whata proper budget would be, what
(08:23):
real expectations over the nextsix, nine months would be,
because all those people thatare undercutting you, they've
never even had a client for ninemonths.
Everything they're telling youis BS.
Harv Nagra (08:33):
Yep.
Max Traylor (08:33):
So you sell the thing that they don't have,
which is experience And, and yousay, look, fine, go ask that
agency that's, that's, uh,cheaper.
Harv Nagra (08:44):
Yep.
Max Traylor (08:44):
Go ask them to talk to the person that's gonna take
care of your account, because Iguarantee you it's somebody
super junior, Mm and gonna, uh,you're never gonna talk to the
principal that you've gotconfidence in right now.
Harv Nagra (08:55):
Yep.
Max Traylor (08:55):
And then go look at their LinkedIn profiles and look
at how long they've been doingthis.
Those are the two things.
So you, you know, you go and, ifafter those two things, you
still want to hire them, then,God bless.
Harv Nagra (09:05):
Mm.
That is a really good pointbecause I think a lot of
agencies might take it the otherway, they start with the
positioning.
So, and I think that's prettyeasy to do on the surface level.
you start calling yourself aconsultancy, you start adding a
strategy offer if you've neverhad one and think that's job
done.
But I think, first of all, thatdoesn't change anything in the
perception in terms of theclient, the client doesn't care
(09:28):
you've called yourself aconsultancy on your website and
that you've started.
Max Traylor (09:31):
The proof is in the people.
Harv Nagra (09:32):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (09:32):
So you've got a strategy offer.
You're a strategist, show metheir LinkedIn profile, show me
that they've had experience inmy industry.
So, yes, cuz I help people dothis on the, cause I help people
do for ten years, productisetheir services and position
themselves.
Um, Um and so but I thinkclients are beginning to realize
that, that there is no barrierto saying you do these things.
(09:56):
Um, you can fake case studies.
Like it's all, it all can befaked.
Like I don't trust any of the,restaurant reviews anymore.
No way.
They're clearly fake.
So what you can't fake or whatis very difficult to fake is
literally you've been doing thisfor 10 years.
And everyone's LinkedIn profileshows exactly how long you've
(10:17):
been in the workforce.
It shows exactly your roles.
So when people are like, oh, I'ma fractional CRO, and six months
ago they were an SEO consultantfor a ten person agency that's
two years old?
No.
No, no, no.
You're not allowed to do that.
Harv Nagra (10:34):
But I wonder, if there's also something there
about adding just that strategyoffer, not changing anything
else is maybe not enough.
You know, just thinking back toyour book, you were talking
about like needing to positionyourself as the decision maker
rather than the order takers.
Max Traylor (10:48):
Yeah.
I mean, you, you have to, youhave to be it right.
Like I told, I, I called my dad,and said, when I was trying to
get this job and I wasfrustrated and I was like, dad,
I can't get a job.
He said, well, Max, what do youwant to do?
And I said, I want to be aconsultant.
And he paused, was on the phoneand then he said, okay,
congratulations.
You're a consultant.
Cause all that means is you makeup the price.
(11:10):
Like you can't change yourclient's perception of you until
you change your own perception.
Harv Nagra (11:14):
Mm.
Max Traylor (11:15):
You are an advisor.
You are a consultant.
The most valuable thing that yousell and deliver is your
knowledge.
You have to believe that.
And so when you're on the phonewith a client and they say, Hey,
what do you do for people?
And you say, well, the mostvaluable thing I do for people
is I create a plan for them.
And that's what that first bookwas about is sell the plan.
Harv Nagra (11:32):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (11:33):
Because we all, uh, we all do the planning.
The most valuable thing that wecan do by the way is the plan.
Harv Nagra (11:40):
Right.
Max Traylor (11:40):
And we give away the plan in the, in the sales
process.
Harv Nagra (11:45):
And the pitch.
Max Traylor (11:46):
And what we're telling our clients is that our
planning is not valuable.
Because we didn't charge for it.
Harv Nagra (11:52):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (11:53):
What a client will do is they will look at the
number on the proposal.
There's a dollar sign.
And then they will look at thewords next to that dollar sign.
And that's what you are to them.
That is your identity.
So you could talk about being astrategic partner to your
clients all you want.
You could have 25 strategicconversations.
If the word next to the numbersays website, it says content,
it says SEO, it says anythingtactical, you are a replaceable
(12:16):
vendor, and as a vendor, you donot get an invite to the
decision maker table.
It's a conflict of interest.
You're not going to ask awebsite developer what they
should spend more money on.
Harv Nagra (12:26):
Mm.
Max Traylor (12:27):
You know what the answer is going to be.
Harv Nagra (12:28):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (12:29):
So it's, it's all, it's all about, believing in
yourself and then creating thatperception and the reality that
the most valuable thing you dofor clients is give them access
to your knowledge.
Harv Nagra (12:45):
I really love that, Max.
so my question is like, whenyou're thinking about this, is
there two levels there?
Cause the client might come tosomebody with a brief on a
particular project, right?
So there's this strategy that'sinvolved in that project.
So, I'm just wondering if you'resaying that can also be part of
what you do or, you know, Ithink what I was getting from
(13:06):
reading your book was that youshould also try to get in and be
sitting with the client makingall the decisions about all
their projects.
Is there two levels or do you,are you suggesting just go for
that big one?
Max Traylor (13:19):
There are transactional clients and there
are strategic clients.
There, there are clients, I'mnot going to use the word, but
there are a certain type ofsomeone.
Harv Nagra (13:26):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (13:27):
That, well, it rhymes with narcissist.
Harv Nagra (13:31):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (13:32):
That will always see you as lesser than them.
And so you could say, look, I'ma strategist and you really need
help with the planning tillyou're blue in the face.
they're going to go, no, no I'mthe brilliant decision maker
here.
I wear the pants and I've got$20, 000.
would you like the$20, 000 to dothis tactical thing?
Harv Nagra (13:51):
hmm.
Mm
Max Traylor (13:52):
And as a business owner, You have to decide if
you're willing to take that.
Harv Nagra (13:55):
hmm.
Max Traylor (13:56):
Now, before COVID, when I wrote that book,
Harv Nagra (13:59):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (13:59):
I was on team do not take that business.
Harv Nagra (14:01):
Mm.
Max Traylor (14:03):
but boy, did that change.
And it didn't change in thefirst two years after COVID
everything was fine.
Agency business got better in21, 22, Okay.
but 23 and 24, budgets tightenedup It's the era of do more with
less.
Harv Nagra (14:15):
Mm-hmm
Max Traylor (14:16):
lot of businesses are going, look, I have to take
that$20, 000 to do the tacticalthing.
Um, and so, now I'm on team...
Look, that's fine.
Take the business, but don'tsacrifice your process.
Let's take websites.
For example, websites are amiserable experience in my
opinion, but if done correctly,they can lead to a better
(14:37):
relationship.
So if a client says, I want youto build my website and you say,
well, I'd really like to startwith strategy first to make
sure, that is actually going tohave the biggest impact on your
business.
Uh, you know, we'll look at someother things.
Strategic clients will go, wow,thank you.
I would like to clarify thebusiness case for this extremely
expensive website.
mm Other clients will say, nope.
(14:58):
We're good.
Do you want the 20 grand for thewebsite or not?
So those are clients that needto feel like they're in control.
With those clients you sayperfect.
We're the we're the we're thebest company to do your website,
Sign here.
Would you like to You know learnabout our process or are you
ready to just get startedbecause even for a tactical
(15:21):
project do not sacrifice yourprocess.
You're still going to dostrategic work.
You're still going to do, uh, Icall them an alignment workshop,
but understand where thatwebsite fits in the context of
their other marketing activityin the context of their business
strategy.
Harv Nagra (15:38):
Mm-hmm
Max Traylor (15:39):
I don't care what you're being signed on for.
Do the strategy first.
Harv Nagra (15:43):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (15:43):
I've just become a lot more open to how you get
that initial deal because peopleare hurting, uh, from 23 and 24.
Harv Nagra (15:51):
Yeah, so I was gonna say, for somebody that hasn't,
uh, read the book that was kindof the point that you should
focus on being the strategicpartner and not touch
implementation.
Max Traylor (16:03):
I mean, profit gets harder, the more implementation
work that you do.
That's all.
as long as you have thatwarning, know, like skydiving is
dangerous.
I'm not going to tellprofessional skydivers to stop
doing what they love,
Harv Nagra (16:15):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (16:17):
but don't come to me and say, Oh, I can't believe
Darren broke both his legs.
I'm like, you're jumping out ofplane.
Harv Nagra (16:22):
Mm.
Max Traylor (16:23):
taking on that risk.
You know what I mean?
Harv Nagra (16:25):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (16:25):
So, uh, yeah, I mean, great, make your money.
Harv Nagra (16:28):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Max Traylor (16:30):
But in, in a professional service, low margin
business, which is high, that'swhat agencies are...
Harv Nagra (16:35):
hmm.
Max Traylor (16:35):
churn and upsell are the thing.
That's what you live and die by.
And if you're, if you'reperceived as a tactical
marketing person,you're notgoing to get into conversations
and opportunities for upsell.
Harv Nagra (16:48):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (16:49):
just not.
Harv Nagra (16:49):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (16:50):
So even when 90% of your business is tactical
implementation, you still haveto have a way to have grownup
business conversations.
And the easiest way to do thatis to sell your expertise.
Because if your clients arepaying for your expertise,
they're going to bring theirdecision makers.
Harv Nagra (17:08):
Mm.
Max Traylor (17:08):
it's also, you know, if you've got big
accounts, if a client is payingyou million dollars a year and
you say, look, I, I really wantyour entire, uh, leadership team
to come to this workshop to makesure that you're getting the
most out of your milliondollars.
Yeah.
They're going to pay attention.
But challenge is in that middlearea where they're going to
perceive you and try tomarginalize you as just, Oh,
you're, you're just this, youknow, you're just these
(17:30):
marketing people that do ourbidding and you have that point
of contact that's always thegatekeeper.
And they don't want to let youtalk to their boss or someone in
sales.
And so it's just, it's, it'sjust ridiculous.
And, uh, And it's like a hospiceprogram.
You're just waiting for thatclient to die.
And so we've gotta, we've gottalike not just deliver.
(17:51):
We've got to recognize that thebiggest sales opportunity is
within those clients.
So how do we upskill ourselves?
How do we change perception?
Harv Nagra (17:58):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (17:58):
How do we get access to some of those other
budget holding decision makersso that we can grow those
accounts?
Harv Nagra (18:03):
Yeah, Max, that's what I wanted to get into next.
It's like, how do you even getyour foot in the door to start
doing this?
Maybe you can just outline thata little bit more.
Cause you might have theseexisting relationships with
clients that have done businesswith you in the past and
somebody new comes to you with afull RFP, right.
So how do you start indicatingthat this is going to be like a
(18:23):
separate stage and it's going tobe paid and we're not doing all
of this strategy beforehand aspart of the proposal that we're
putting in.
Max Traylor (18:32):
Um, well, so, so these are, these are like the
signals that you sent.
So the first one that I look foris the roles.
Harv Nagra (18:37):
Okay.
Max Traylor (18:38):
Right.
So even if you're not chargingfor it, let's, let's say you've
got it.
You've had a client for 10years, most agencies haven't had
clients for 10 years, but let'ssay you've spent 10 years
telegraphing Mm that you're a,uh, a tactical, know, uh, agency
that draws their pictures,
Harv Nagra (18:55):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (18:55):
get, let's get crazy with it.
We draw your pictures, you know,we're super marginalised.
We're like kept in a dark roomsomewhere.
Harv Nagra (19:00):
Uh huh.
Max Traylor (19:00):
Question is, how do we get conversations with, say,
the head of sales...
Harv Nagra (19:04):
hmm.
Mm
Max Traylor (19:05):
Who thinks we're crayon pushers and don't deserve
our time of day.
Harv Nagra (19:09):
hmm.
Max Traylor (19:09):
So the first is roles.
'cause someone's gonna have toreach out to that person.
Harv Nagra (19:14):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (19:15):
And if the someone that reaches out to that person,
is, Corey, the crayon pusher,they're gonna be no way.
so I would look at the roles.
Harv Nagra (19:23):
Okay.
Max Traylor (19:24):
The easiest way to get to somebody is to have a
role that speaks to them.
Harv Nagra (19:28):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (19:28):
Hey, I'm the head of sales.
I'm the head of sales at myagency.
I'm the agency sales advisor.
Um, I'm the growth advisor, justsomething that says, I know the
position you're in, and we'renot going to have some tactical
conversation about marketing.
So the, the roles is one of thefirst things, uh, that I look at
(19:49):
and you can't fake roles.
You can't say, Oh, I'm the salesgrowth advisor.
And then your last four titleswere Corey, the crayon pusher.
Harv Nagra (19:57):
Yeah Yeah
Max Traylor (19:58):
This is where there's often a gap in
expertise.
And so for some agencies, youhave to get the agency principal
involved.
Cause if you're running abusiness, generally you're, uh,
you know, you've got thegravitas, you've got access to
have a grownup conversation withother business owners.
You're in the business ownerclub.
It doesn't matter what kind ofbusiness, you're in the business
(20:18):
owner club.
Um, so, you know, a lot ofagencies pride themselves that
our founder, uh, our agencyprincipal has gotten out of
services.
Harv Nagra (20:28):
Yeah
Max Traylor (20:29):
That's all fine in principle, but they are like
professor upsell.
So we got to design someexperiences where they can come
in simply to get the presence ofthe client's budget holding
decision makers.
I would recommend that happenson a quarterly basis.
Harv Nagra (20:44):
Okay
Max Traylor (20:45):
you've got to have, a reason for them to go that is
more than just, Oh, so and so isgoing to be there.
Cause otherwise, why wouldn'tyou just pick up the phone and
call that person?
So the universally valuablething Mhm to any client, any
client's decision maker, andultimately you want to get, if
you're marketing, you want toexpand your relationships to
(21:07):
sales, product, and finance.
Harv Nagra (21:09):
Mhm
Max Traylor (21:10):
Those are like the four horsemen, the, the, the
three, uh, other areas where youcould, uh, where you could get
budget from.
And so you have to findsomething universally valuable
that you can talk about thatbenefits all four of those
departments.
Has nothing to do withmarketing.
Harv Nagra (21:24):
Mhm
Max Traylor (21:25):
But if you can, this is why I love industry
benchmarks, because if you cometo the table and you say, Hey,
we've been researching, andwe've got insights on what your
buyers are spending money ontheir challenges, their
opportunities, the trends intheir industry.
Everyone's going to go.
Yeah, I want to know that...
Harv Nagra (21:41):
I love that
Max Traylor (21:41):
this is why agencies do annual events for
all of their, uh, for all oftheir clients.
Harv Nagra (21:46):
They bring
Max Traylor (21:46):
industry research.
You can incorporate that intoyour quarterly business reviews.
You can incorporate that into a,uh, a separate, uh, sort of a
virtual event for your clients.
Um, but we have to think outsideof our marketing box and think,
okay, how can we add value toeverybody?
And I think research and buyerinsights is probably the easiest
(22:08):
first step.
Harv Nagra (22:09):
Right.
Okay.
So you got your foot in thedoor.
You've had those conversations.
You demonstrate that value andthen you've got that
relationship so you can startselling your strategic...
Max Traylor (22:18):
Well, you've got access.
I wouldn't say you've got therelationship yet.
Harv Nagra (22:22):
Okay.
Max Traylor (22:22):
Um, because first you need access, and then they
need to tell you what'simportant to them, which is also
why I love research, because ifthey want to contribute to the
research, it, you know, it'llmake it better.
So...
Harv Nagra (22:35):
good point.
Max Traylor (22:35):
You're gonna ask the head of product, you're
gonna ask the head of sales,you're gonna ask the head of
finance.
Hey, what are your biggestchallenges?
What are the things that are onyour roadmap for the year?
That's where the upsellopportunities come, and that's
what the best relationships arebased off of is how can I is
when somebody perceives that youunderstand what is most
important to them.
And that's the first step is toget them talking about what is
(22:59):
most important to them.
And I guarantee it has nothingto do with marketing.
Harv Nagra (23:03):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (23:04):
Your job is to listen and create that bridge.
Harv Nagra (23:07):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (23:07):
Hey, you're launching a new product.
That's, that's the biggest thingon, you know, on your milestone.
How can we help?
Maybe we could do some buyerresearch to tell you if they
liked the color purple or thecolor blue, would that be
helpful?
Harv Nagra (23:20):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (23:21):
However you can add value to those other
relationships to maintain youraccess and keep your ears open
are the best salesopportunities.
They're far better than net new,because you already know the
players, you already know theyhave budget.
You already have budget salesevents in your quarterly
business reviews.
So just gotta get talking tothese people.
(23:42):
It's often a question I ask,hey, marketing agency, how many
conversations do you have thathave nothing to do with
marketing?
Okay, that's a problem.
Harv Nagra (23:49):
Mm hmm.
So, when it comes to that kindof strategic offer, what kind,
can, can you tell us maybe thekinds of things that could be
sold as part of that?
just painting us a picture, thatis not just one line in a quote
that says strategy...
Max Traylor (24:05):
So generally, the first thing that people have
that is strategic is an audit
Harv Nagra (24:10):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (24:11):
Audits are trash.
Like if you so we've all hadthat client that's like, Look, I
already know it's broken.
I don't need to pay you to tellyou that it's broken.
Harv Nagra (24:20):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (24:21):
So the problem with audits is they're incomplete.
Like why would you auditsomething without putting
together the plan or a roadmapfor, for how to solve that?
So you can easily just tag on a,a roadmap or a set of
recommendations to the audit.
Uh, and it's a much morevaluable, uh, it's a much more
you could, and a strategy is aplan, right?
So there you go, there's yourstrategy offer.
(24:42):
Uh, By the way, that's exactlywhat happens in the sales
process.
Your, your audit is theconversations that you're having
and the roadmap is yourproposal.
So you're already doing that onefor free.
First book, Hey, sell the plan,take that, break it off, sell
that for five, 10, 000,something that has single
signature authority.
That the CEO or someone that hasbudget can purchase without
(25:05):
going through the three monthsof having to get a whole
committee to agree to it.
Um, another standalone offer isan alignment workshop.
So this is, this is verystrategic, but is the perfect
way to start.
And that is to say, okay, uh,you've got this brief here.
The brief looks like trash.
The reality is you've neverpurchased anything like this
before, the decision makers,like your leadership team isn't
(25:28):
even on the same page.
Harv Nagra (25:29):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (25:30):
Um, I would really love to help you like get
everybody on the same page,align on what is most important
and then show you where the gapsare in this plan.
Like what, what should the goalsbe?
What are the team roles?
What's the timeline of activity?
And let's clarify what the gapis that a third party vendor is
going to try and solve.
So that alignment workshop isalso a standalone offer that you
(25:53):
can do, you know, couple hours,five grand, 10 grand as a single
thing.
I like to combine those threeas, as the first, three to five
week, uh, three to five weekstrategic offer.
You do an alignment workshop todetermine what's most important.
You benchmark their capabilitiesin that area that is most
important.
And then you create a strategicroadmap of the things that
(26:16):
you're going to do to capturethat most important opportunity
and fill the gaps.
It takes about three to fiveweeks.
You could charge, well, I don'tknow, know, some, some people
charge like a hundred grand forthat, but,
Harv Nagra (26:26):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (26:28):
you know, 10 to 10 to 20 grand.
And that roadmap of opportunitybecomes your upsell roadmap.
Harv Nagra (26:35):
Mm.
Max Traylor (26:36):
That's your account plan.
That's your upsell roadmap.
You remind the client of thatevery time you meet.
And all of a sudden at the endof the first quarter, you're not
saying, Hey, can I upsell yousomething?
The conversation is now, hey,are we ready to do the next
thing that we've been talkingabout for three months?
Harv Nagra (26:49):
Yeah.
I really, really love that.
Max Traylor (26:53):
yeah.
And then, so the, the otherthing I would say is that, uh,
agencies are, comicallydelusional about their QBRs,
quarterly business reviews,
Harv Nagra (27:06):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (27:07):
the whole point is to listen to a client, talk
about their business objectives,and for us to align our
capabilities with their businessobjectives, 90 percent of those
meetings and agency principalswill say, Oh yeah, we do that.
We do great.
We do great QBRs.
Um, yeah, look at your deck.
If it's got 50 slides of chartsand graphs and numbers.
(27:30):
Mm That's you making apresentation of tactical sh*t.
Then you look at your recordedcalls.
AI can tell you how much youtalk versus they talk.
If you're talking 90 percent ofthe time, it's not a
conversation.
Mm hmm.
They should be doing themajority of the talking.
Harv Nagra (27:43):
Right.
Max Traylor (27:44):
So it's the primary way of maintaining alignment and
maintaining your businessrelationship with a client.
Uh, agencies are completelydelusional because generally the
principal hasn't done one ofthose.
Harv Nagra (27:56):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (27:57):
believes it's being done that way.
And it just isn't
Harv Nagra (28:02):
So Max, like, you know, if you get into that kind
of a situation where you areable to offer this as a, as
this, like, I don't want to saystandalone service, but if there
was a separation ofimplementation, um, what, what's
my question just slipped mymind.
Max Traylor (28:21):
it, it, and yes, like I've got clients right now
where it's a standalone service
Harv Nagra (28:25):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (28:26):
and I've got clients that are like, Hey, we
don't want to make it astandalone service.
Our, uh, our, our clientengagements are big enough.
We just want to keep them andupsell them.
Harv Nagra (28:36):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (28:36):
they're doing this as just a cost of keeping the
client, and the cost of upsell,which is significantly lower
than the cost of a new sale.
Harv Nagra (28:44):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I remember what I was going tosay now.
Uh, there was something that Iwas reading about you saying,
that you can also like throughall this work, become the person
that helps them assess thevendors...
Max Traylor (28:54):
Yeah.
So if the worst thing that couldhappen is for you to be
vendorified...
Harv Nagra (28:58):
Hmm.
Max Traylor (28:58):
I put this into my second book, uh, it's in the
Urban Dictionary.
Harv Nagra (29:02):
Hmm.
Okay.
Max Traylor (29:03):
To be vendorified is when you go from being a
strategic partner, you getrelegated to being a vendor.
Yeah.
Um, the best way to tell aclient that you're not a vendor
is to add vendor evaluation toyour strategy offer.
Harv Nagra (29:18):
That's brilliant.
Max Traylor (29:19):
Right.
So remember the strategy offeris we align on what's most
important, we benchmark yourcapabilities, and we create a
roadmap for solving thatproblem.
Well, in that roadmap, a part ofthe plan is, Hey, you don't have
the skills to do some of thesethings.
hmm.
Here are the people we think youshould hire and how to evaluate
them.
Harv Nagra (29:36):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (29:38):
Client's not going to look at us as a vendor,
because we're literally sayingwe can help you evaluate other
vendors.
Harv Nagra (29:44):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (29:44):
if they've never hired somebody for marketing and
they've never worked with,either internally or third
party.
Harv Nagra (29:51):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (29:51):
The education or the training on what to look out
for, how to evaluate vendors.
I mean, that's like extreme.
That's like the most importantthing that you could do.
Hey, you're now entering a worldwhere you're going to spend
money.
You're going to get burned.
Harv Nagra (30:05):
Mm
Max Traylor (30:06):
It's crazy out there.
And everyone looks like theyknow what they're doing they're,
you know, they're marketers.
They got a nice website.
Harv Nagra (30:12):
Very, very good point.
Um, so you, you, I think yousaid, a bit earlier in the call
about pro well, we were talkingabout productization briefly,
but strategy being productized.
Does that work?
And how does that work?
Max Traylor (30:25):
Well, anything can be productized.
And I use the word productisedas a big word, cause it sounds
smart.
Harv Nagra (30:31):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (30:31):
but really it just means you do the same thing for
the same people, for the sameprice.
Harv Nagra (30:35):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (30:37):
Things, steps, fees.
It is more of a mindset.
So the services mindset is wejust, you know, we just do
whatever is most valuable forthe client.
Harv Nagra (30:49):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (30:49):
And we know that the profit margin is going to go
up and down.
It's wildly unpredictable.
Mm Um, the opposite of that istreating it like a product.
Like it's on an assembly line.
The exact same amount ofmaterial goes in.
It looks the same every time.
There's product standards.
It's probably made on anassembly line.
So the more you can think ofyour service as consistent
(31:12):
deliverables, consistentprocess, consistent fees, the
more profitable you're going tobe, the better positioned you're
going to be because people cansay, Oh, I know exactly what you
do.
You make shoes.
I know what they look like.
They go on your feet.
It's not like, well, what do youdo?
It's like, oh, it depends.
Do you want shoes on your handsor shoes on your feet?
No, we know what you frickingdo.
(31:32):
Um, and, and it's much easier toset and meet client
expectations.
I mean, that's just a servicebetter business.
Harv Nagra (31:40):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (31:41):
Um, and so can strategy be productized?
Absolutely.
Here are the steps we gothrough.
hmm.
Here are, uh, here's what theclient gets and what the client
does not get.
Harv Nagra (31:50):
Mm
Max Traylor (31:50):
Here's the timeline.
We know what it costs.
Productized.
Harv Nagra (31:55):
Yeah.
Excellent.
So Max, if someone's listeningand they're thinking, this is
what I want to do, being morestrategic and selling that as a,
as part of their offer, where doyou think you would advise that
they should get started?
Like what are the first steps?
Max Traylor (32:08):
Here's the first thing that you should do.
It's the most powerful thing youcan do.
Go to your clients and ask themone question.
What is the least valuable thingthat we do for you?
Harv Nagra (32:16):
Mm.
Max Traylor (32:17):
That's a question to ask.
So what that's going to do is,It's going to help you with
profitability
Harv Nagra (32:22):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (32:24):
and a CEO did this the other day and called me up
and he was like, yeah, they saidit was the QBRs, the quarterly
business reviews.
Harv Nagra (32:31):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (32:32):
The most strategic thing that you're supposed to be
doing.
That's the least valuable.
And they said like, yeah, youguys are just like reporting
stuff to us.
Uh, we really need you thinkingsix, 12 months down the line.
And I was just like lapping itup.
I'm like, yeah, I told ya.
But it's a really good questionbecause it's only something that
a strategic partner would ask.
Mm Vendors don't ask that.
(32:53):
Vendors are like, hey, whatshould we stop doing for you?
A vendor would never ask that.
Harv Nagra (32:57):
You might be afraid to ask that, actually.
Max Traylor (32:58):
Well, they're terrified.
Harv Nagra (32:59):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (33:00):
terrified of losing clients.
Actually, this is for anotherthing, but my theory is that
most are just terrified of beingexposed because deep down they
believe that they're notactually adding any value.
Harv Nagra (33:10):
Right.
Max Traylor (33:10):
That's a different problem, but that's what I think
the reality is.
sorry, if it cut too deep forsome...
Harv Nagra (33:16):
no.
Max Traylor (33:18):
Go find something valuable.
Harv Nagra (33:19):
Mm hmm.
Max Traylor (33:20):
so that's number one.
Harv Nagra (33:22):
Okay.
Max Traylor (33:22):
Number 2 is, the next time, the next time you
have a sales opportunity, sellthe, the proposal process.
You already do the proposalprocess.
So don't give me this like, Oh,I don't know what I should do.
Like you sell your exactproposal process.
You put a$5, 000 tag on it.
Just start at five.
The pricing doesn't matter.
So just start at five.
Um, those are the two thingsthat you should do.
Harv Nagra (33:42):
Mm.
And then be brave with this andtry it.
Max Traylor (33:46):
Yeah, be brave.
That's the mindset.
Be strong.
Harv Nagra (33:50):
Nice.
Max Traylor (33:50):
It's not rocket science.
Harv Nagra (33:51):
Yeah.
Max Traylor (33:51):
You can read any book on, on what agencies should
do better.
They're all going to say sellstrategic work.
They're all going to say, haveadult conversations with budget,
holding decision makers.
So like, none of this is like,Oh my God.
So the real challenge is like,what is holding people back
psychologically?
(34:12):
Uh, and it's something inbetween imposter syndrome when,
when they have the skills andthey're just not being
recognized or they literallydon't have the skills yet and
they're not adding value,they're avoiding having that
conversation because the onlyway to get past that is to have
A real adult conversation withyour clients because they'll
tell you what would be reallyvaluable.
(34:33):
but it might be, you got to beopen to the fact that it might
not be what you're doing rightnow.
Harv Nagra (34:37):
I think there's just that element of fear also that
the other guy is going to becheaper and how are you going to
get your foot in the door?
But I think the point is youjust have to start and try it
and you'll learn something alongthe way.
And, you know..
Max Traylor (34:49):
Yeah, Or, or do it for, or do it for existing
clients.
So there's nothing stopping youfrom going like if you do not,
if currently you go to your bestclient, if you do not have an
understanding of what theirpriority initiatives are,
initiatives mean projects, butthey're serious projects...
Harv Nagra (35:06):
yeah.
Max Traylor (35:06):
for clients, things that they have said, okay, we're
going to spend money on this.
There's success and failurecriteria.
Someone's been assigned to this,that that's called an
initiative.
And when people planstrategically, there's like,
there's a roadmap that is okay,2025.
Here's what we're trying toaccomplish in Q2, Q3, Q4.
So you got to get your hands onthat, then you've got a, you've
got to say, okay, here's how wecan add the most value during
(35:30):
those quarters.
So that's your objective.
Every client should have that.
It's called an account plan.
Harv Nagra (35:34):
hmm.
Max Traylor (35:35):
Every client should have that little roadmap, um, go
build that with your client.
And I would say if you don'thave it for an existing client,
don't even charge for it thefirst time, go build that with
them.
Cause like your account's indanger by the way.
Harv Nagra (35:52):
Yeah.
Mm
Max Traylor (35:53):
build that for them.
And then after you've done ittwo or three times, have a third
party go interview those clientsand ask them the same question.
What's the least valuable thingwe do for you?
What's the most valuable thingthey do for you?
And I guarantee that thoseconversations where you're
helping them think into thefuture and make grownup
decisions, those are going to besome of the most valuable things
you do.
Now you've got the confidence.
Now you can start to weaponizethat in the sales process as
(36:16):
like, Oh yeah, those other cheapguys, they're gonna, they're
gonna try and sell you a cheapcontent package.
Yeah.
We've learned, you know, wereally want to help you think.
Harv Nagra (36:26):
Really, really good advice.
So, Max, we're coming up towardsthe end now.
Where can people connect withyou and learn more about what
you do?
Max Traylor (36:34):
Oh, LinkedIn, LinkedIn.
I,
Harv Nagra (36:35):
linkedIn.
Max Traylor (36:36):
I'm a one trick pony.
Harv Nagra (36:37):
Excellent.
Okay.
Max Traylor (36:38):
I'm out there.
I'm on LinkedIn.
Harv Nagra (36:40):
Excellent.
Max Traylor (36:40):
Spittin' uh, some occasionally offensive stuff.
Harv Nagra (36:44):
No, very, very informative and interesting
stuff and loads of video contentas well, which I love.
So definitely I will put a linkto your profile in the episode
notes and Max, it's been anabsolute pleasure having you on
today.
Max Traylor (36:57):
Thank you for, thank you for having me.
Harv Nagra (36:59):
And I need to read the next book.
Max Traylor (37:00):
I apologize
Harv Nagra (37:01):
No, I'm not offended, but I need a copy of
that second book so we can bookin our follow up session at some
point.
Max Traylor (37:07):
Yeah.
Consultant survival guide.
Harv Nagra (37:09):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Hi again all just a fewreflections from me before we
wrap up.
If you've struggled to sell yourthinking rather than the doing I
hope you took some things awayfrom that conversation with Max.
My key takeaways, If a clientsees you as a vendor, you'll
always be replaceable, the bestway to change that perception,
(37:30):
start charging for strategy, notjust giving it away in the sales
process.
Number two, your role at thetable is only as strong as the
relationships you build.
If you're only talking to yourclient's marketing team, you're
missing out on conversationswith sales, product, and
finance, people who may behugely influential in the
decision and could also beholding the budget.
(37:51):
And number three, if you want tostart shifting towards a more
strategic role, ask your clientsa simple but powerful question:
what's the least valuable thingwe do for you?
The answer might surprise youand could be guiding your way
towards offering what is trulyneeded.
If you enjoyed this episode,please take a moment to share it
with someone in your network whowould appreciate it.
(38:13):
And if you haven't already, I'dreally appreciate it if you
could rate and review the show.
And don't forget to sign up forthe Handbook Newsletter, where
we share a cheat sheet of thekey takeaways from each episode
So you can go reference theideas at a later time.
Go to scoro.com/podcast, scrolldown and you'll find where to
put in your email.
(38:33):
That's it for me.
I'll be back with the nextepisode soon.
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