July 30, 2024 • 35 mins
We’re in the age of remote and hybrid working, and our physical distance from one another is having a huge impact on company culture.
Previously, grabbing lunch or a drink after work was easy. But now, even small talk needs to be consciously brought into our scheduled Slack calls to avoid things becoming too transactional.
This new way of working can lead to serious challenges like feeling disconnected from colleagues and the company mission, lacking motivation, and experiencing loneliness.
So what’s the way forward?
In this episode, we speak with Julia Vastrik, an agile coach and team facilitator, about how we can strengthen company culture in a remote/hybrid workplace.
Julia offers loads of great advice, which we’ve summarized for easy reference:
Building Trust and Relationships
We’re a much more effective team when we like the people we work with.
- Get to know people through small talk
- Use ice breakers, team rituals
- Virtual lunches, coffees
- Encourage silliness for personalities to shine
- Learning together e.g. book clubs, communities around certain topics like AI
- For big meetings, use breakout rooms
- Organize face-to-face activities - both for work and fun
Communication
A lot of information is lost in written communication.
- Use a good balance of synchronous and asynchronous communication
- Have explicit agreements on communication and how to run meetings
- With written communication, the giver needs to be overly friendly (emojis, kind greetings), the receiver overly accepting that they may perceive the tone wrong
- Use audio and video to prevent misinterpretation
Productivity and Collaboration
- Set clear goals for teams and individuals
- Create working agreements e.g. working hours, punctuality, documentation, ways of working, etc
- Co-create - brainstorm solutions and make decisions together to boost a feeling of belonging
Continuous Improvement
Little changes sum up to bigger improvements over time.
- Retrospectives, post-mortems & team discussions
- Experiment
- We’re never in an ideal state - there’s always room for improvement
Psychological Safety
Feeling safe to be not perfect, to make mistakes, to be a human.
- Mistakes happen and they are a learning opportunity
- Have leaders model this behavior
Other Resources:
The book Julia recommends to read is called The Culture Map, by Erin Meyer.
The virtual ‘body doubling’ clubs Harv mentioned are flow.club and flown.com.
Follow Julia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-vastrik/
Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/
Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.
This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harv (00:32):
Hi all, welcome back to the podcast.
We're in the age of remote andhybrid working.
There's a joke that every timeyou step out of your flat in
London, you end up spending 50pounds.
That is a bit of anexaggeration.
But the commute, the coffee, andthe lunch all do add up.
Not to mention the time savings.
But there is a downside to thisas well.
(00:52):
I don't know about yourworkplace, but at my past
agency, I certainly felt thatthe dynamic, friendly, fun
culture we had created changedfollowing the COVID lockdowns.
Even with a hybrid model, a partof that magic was lost, and we
struggled to overcome that.
Where it was easy to have alaugh or a moan, grab lunch
together, or get a beer afterwork to burn off some of the
stress, that's harder to arrangeif not impossible to do at home
(01:15):
and now over the past few monthsI've been in my first fully
remote job.
That's come with its ownchallenges; sometimes feeling
lonely, sometimes feeling likeinteractions end up being very
transactional.
And as an adult, it's been myexperience that the closest
friendships I've made have beenthrough work.
Not only has that made work moreenjoyable for me over my career,
(01:37):
but I've made some lifelongfriendships.
So, in the age of hybrid andremote working, one of my
questions and anxieties hasbeen, what does this mean for
the future of company culture?
Do our careers become just jobs?
Don't all our conversations justbecome transactional if
everything is through a Slackmessage or a scheduled Zoom
call?
(01:58):
Isn't it a sad future when wedon't get to know our co workers
and build a personal connection,and friendships that motivate us
and give us something to lookforward to each day?
And imagine these young peoplecoming up that might only ever
work in remote jobs.
How different will theirworldview be?
So what is the way forward?
Is this just a reality of thisstark future we face?
(02:19):
Is everyone just going to bequiet quitting at home for the
rest of time?
Or is there a way through wherewe can strengthen those
connections, build camaraderie,care about our mission, and have
fun along the way, even withdispersed teams?
As Ops leaders, I do think it'sour responsibility to create
that cohesive, warm, andcollaborative culture.
(02:40):
So that's the topic of today'sdiscussion.
Our guest today is JuliaVastrik.
Julia is an agile coach who hasover 20 years experience in IT
and engineering and over 10years experience in agile
coaching and team facilitationexperience.
She currently works as an agilecoach and also runs her own
consultancy as a team coach andtrainer where she provides
(03:01):
training, coaching andfacilitation services.
She has won the Estonian trainerof the year award and spoken at
several conferences, sharing herexpertise in developing high
performing teams.
Now you might be thinking, I'mnot an engineer or a developer.
How is an agile coach going tohelp me or my agency?
Trust me on this.
And in fact, I would recommendyou go get a pen so you can
(03:22):
write down some of the greatideas Julia is going to present
today.
I'm a big fan of Julia's contenton LinkedIn.
It's very visual and it reallyresonates with me.
I think there's a lot we canlearn from her and after
listening to this discussion, Ihope you'll agree.
And you'll have some practicalideas to bring back to your
workplace on how you can giveyour company culture a tune up.
Let's get into it.
(03:44):
Julia, welcome to the show.
Thank you for being here today.
Our topic is company culture inthe age of remote and hybrid
working.
We were forced to embrace remoteworking a few years ago, and
then many of us have stayed thatway, or at least shifted to
hybrid working.
And a lot of the conversationabout getting back to the office
focuses on out of touch bossesthat are forcing people back
(04:06):
five days a week and people notwanting to do that.
Hybrid is probably a very goodcompromise, but I can't be the
only one that's thinking companyculture and relationships are
suffering as a result of thisnew way of working.
At least I don't think so.
What do you think are some ofthe challenges that remote
working introduces?
Julia (04:26):
Yes, indeed, when we work together with physical space,
many interaction happennaturally, those casual
conversations, jokes and stufflike this, we go to lunches
together; it's difficult toreplicate so easily in remote
environment.
It's possible, but it requiresvery intentional effort, so it
(04:50):
won't happen by itself.
Harv (04:52):
So, you know, before, when we were talking, you mentioned
something about proximity bias.
Can you tell us what that is aswell and how that's relevant?
Julia (05:00):
Yes.
Proximity bias is quite a bigthing in the remote and
especially hybrid workingenvironments.
Proximity bias is our tendencyto favor those who are
physically close to us.
We like them more, we spend moretime with them, we think that
they are maybe moreprofessional, maybe they're more
(05:21):
diligent, maybe they arecontributing more.
It's very important for managersto be aware of this and to
mitigate this bias.
If everybody is remote it'seasier to make everybody equal,
but if part of the team on siteand somebody is far away, then
there are a lot of challenges.
Harv (05:43):
Yeah, I think it ends up being that people have different
experiences depending on wherethey're based.
You're absolutely right.
So, you know, when we thinkabout the areas that we should
pay attention to about companyculture, can you maybe take us
through what those key areasare.
First, let's just maybe listthem and then we can get into a
(06:03):
discussion about some of thosespecifics.
Julia (06:06):
First, building trust and relationships, not only work
related trust and relationships,but different types of trust.
Also to think aboutmiscommunication and
miscommunication to avoidconflict.
Then we also need to think aboutproductivity and collaboration.
One of the most important thingsfor every team, is the culture
(06:27):
of continuous improvements.
It's especially important forremote cultures to experiment.
And also fostering ofpsychological safety.
It goes together with trust, buta little bit different also.
So those areas are veryimportant.
Harv (06:44):
Let's get into each of those areas in a bit more
detail.
So the first was building trustand relationships and the sense
of belonging.
Let's start with that.
Julia (06:53):
Trust and relationships, I put it first because I believe
it's the most important thing inany team and especially in
remote or hybrid environmentsbecause it's easy to overlook
this.
We are a much better team whenwe like people we work with.
And to like people, we need toknow more, know more as
(07:13):
professionals but also asperson.
And in some cultures people arenot so open to talk about
themselves and this is quitechallenging to be with team
members who are quite closed.
But what we can do is to startdoing this first; to reveal a
little bit of our personalitytogether with our
(07:35):
professionalism.
It's also It can be likecognitive trust, like I trust
you as a professional.
I know that you are trustworthy,how you are doing your work, but
also trust on personal level.
I trust you as a person.
I know who you are.
I know your interests and that Ican rely that you are doing the
(07:59):
best for the team.
This is very important, thistype of trust.
And quite often at work we paymost attention to cognitive
trust.
Like you are good professional,check, that's it.
And that's why we need to paymore attention to this soft type
of trust.
The trust which come from heartand it might be touchy feely but
(08:22):
it's kind of very important forus.
And this doesn't mean that Ineed to tell everything about
myself.
There are some things that I'mwilling to tell, for example, my
hobbies or stuff like this.
Some people are more open, somepeople less open.
And it's okay.
And also it's very important tonot reveal some kind of private
(08:42):
information.
Private information is your own.
If you share this, you might putpeople in awkward situation
because, first, they don't wantto know anything like this about
you.
And second, they might feel thatthey now need to reveal their
secrets as well.
No, yeah.
(09:03):
But it's also depends on people,like what is private for you
might be not so private for me.
Harv (09:09):
Understood.
That's really interesting,Julia.
So can you maybe give us someexamples of building trust in
relationships?
So we can feel inspired andmaybe start introducing that at
our workplaces.
Julia (09:21):
It starts with very small things like just everyday
interactions with people.
So when we start our meetings,we can have some small talk and
not just go straight to thepoint.
And we might need to have someintentional exercises, like
icebreakers in the beginning ofthe meetings.
It's really good practice.
(09:42):
Not every meeting, but maybe biweekly meetings, spend five
minutes to answer somequestions.
Something like, what is yourfavorite food?
Who you wanted to become whenyou were a child and stuff like
this to maybe if the teamrelations are already deeper,
you can go to deeper topics.
(10:03):
Also you can do some specialteam building events using some
exercises.
For example, my favorite one ismarket of skills.
Where people present theirprofessional skills.
Everybody create their poster,where they present themselves.
And then they talk aboutthemselves, and then others give
feedback, and it's all veryrevealing information about
(10:27):
people.
In the beginning, when I givethis exercise, people are like,
I need to create this.
And for this, we are usingvirtual, virtual online boards,
or physical boards, if in aphysical space, but during the
exercise, people get much moreexcited, and the atmosphere is
totally different.
But this is like special event,but you can integrate it time to
(10:49):
time.
And silliness is Silliness isvery important.
Having silliness, not only toconcentrate on serious stuff
like efficiency, efficiency,efficiency, but if we have some
channels in our tools where wetalk about anything...
Harv (11:07):
what was on TV last night?
The latest episode of like,house of the Dragon or something
like that.
Julia (11:12):
Yeah these things and sometimes we think that it's
something that we don't need todo because it doesn't have
anything to do with our work,but I get to know you better as
a person.
And for me, it's much easier towork, to ask some questions.
And especially in hybrid workingor remote working, it's more
difficult to ask somebody forhelp because you think I'm
(11:34):
disturbing this person, but thebetter relations we have
together, the easier for me to,to ask you for something.
I know that you are a goodperson.
it's not a problem for you toanswer me when you have this
time.
So you see those small things,they have a big impact, but they
need some intentional effort andsome planning.
(11:57):
So if team is not very big thenwe might have this relaxed
atmosphere naturally, but for big teams it might be more
difficult and especially ifyou're just starting this
journey of building trust andrelationship, people will be
just sitting like this, likevery straight and not talking.
And of course, cameras needs tobe on.
(12:18):
This is awful that stillsometimes on some teams, cameras
are not switched on.
Harv (12:24):
It's a good policy.
Julia (12:26):
Yeah.
It's sometimes, of course thereare some situation.
If you did not have time to eat,you use this time to eat, but
it's more like exceptionalstate.
We are talking to people not tothe black square on our screen.
Harv (12:38):
Mm.
Really good examples there.
Is there anything else youwanted to cover there?
or should we move on?
Julia (12:43):
There are a lot of things we can have some kind of
communities, book clubs,learning together.
These things help a lot and it'shalf work half not work, if, for
example, we would like to learnsome topic together.
For example, AI, and we createthis community.
We will create this importantfeeling that we are part of the
(13:05):
team.
We have this goal together.
And another thing, it's alsovery important to work together
to earn trust to each other asprofessionals.
So we are not doing our tasksseparately, but we are working
on achieving something together.
So not only having fun together,but also working together.
(13:28):
This is something that is veryimportant in remote working.
In remote, sometimes we thinkit's better we are in our house
doing our stuff, and then wemake those status reports
meetings.
But it's better to findpossibilities to work together.
What is important with all thissaid, time to time we need to
(13:50):
have those face to faceactivities to see people for
work and for fun.
Harv (13:56):
That's a good point.
Whether, you can do that monthlyor quarterly or every six months
or, once a year, if you're afully remote company, whatever.
But I think the point is tryingto get people together as well.
So there's that kind of closerrelationship, lots of really,
really good ideas.
And I can see why you putbuilding trust and relationships
at the top of your list.
The second area you mentionedwas communication or
(14:20):
miscommunication.
So why don't we get into that?
Why, why is that important?
And then we'll get into some ofthe examples that we can
introduce.
Julia (14:28):
So written communication is very different from how we
are talking.
So we lose so much informationthere.
And that's why it's really easyto misinterpret.
So if it's some kind of justwork related information, it's
okay, but sometimes we mightfeel that somebody may be
(14:49):
hostile to us, or maybe nothappy with what we've done.
So this here is very importantto be more friendly than you
would usually be.
So be over friendly, to putthose maybe emojis or polite
words or something like this.
If you can use video use video
Harv (15:11):
mm Hmm,
Julia (15:12):
it's better just to have some clip or video and sent,
than to write this big textwhere people might misinterpret.
Harv (15:22):
mm
Julia (15:23):
And also to avoid this miscommunication from other
side.
You need to know that somethingmight have been lost in this
written communication.
So always assume goodintentions.
And then if you are not sure,just ask again
Harv (15:42):
hmm, mm
Julia (15:42):
Benefit of doubt here is very important because
Harv (15:45):
good point.
Julia (15:46):
most of those things are just our misinterpretations of
what is happening.
Harv (15:52):
mm hmm.
Julia (15:52):
this is work from both sides.
One side needs to be overlyfriendly.
Other side need to be overlyaccepting
Harv (16:02):
Yeah.
Julia (16:03):
in their opinion.
Harv (16:04):
Okay.
Super interesting.
And yeah, I definitely recognizethis as well.
You know, when people aretalking, you can hear the tone
in their voice.
You can see their eye contact.
You can see a smile and thingslike that.
And that's completely gone ifyou don't make the effort in
text communications, if youdon't say the friendly greeting
or the emoji.
And just get straight intobusiness.
(16:24):
It can just come across as a bitblunt.
So you mentioned some examplesalready.
Is there anything else thatcomes to mind we can introduce
to make sure that we're buildingpositive communication?
Julia (16:35):
Again, it's very good idea to use the meetings as an
opportunity to connect to eachother.
So again, not only make themtransactional, but to have a
good laugh and to show yourpersonality more, to start
meeting well, to finish meetingwell, So meetings are very
important to build this trust.
Harv (16:57):
Mm hmm.
Since we don't have the benefitwhen we're working remotely of
having our colleagues with us tohave that warmth and connection
and interaction, using some ofthat meeting time, and it
doesn't have to be long, but tojust share some warmth and
friendliness and catch up andthings like that is really
important to not make it feel sotransactional.
The other thing that you saidthat really kind of resonated
(17:19):
with me was the use of a videomessage to communicate instead
of writing a long paragraph.
And I, I do that sometimes andtools like Slack make that
really easy to record a littlevoice note or a video message
that you can send and savingyourself typing a paragraph of
text, and like you're saying,the benefit of that is also
communicating some of the, the,the tone of voice and the warmth
(17:42):
and, a bit of friendliness aswell.
So let's get into the next area,productivity and collaboration.
Why is that relevant to companyculture?
And then we'll get into some ofthe examples.
Julia (17:56):
Okay, so a company, we exist first of all to achieve
some goals.
And this is very important forus to, to be informed by this
big goal.
So as a team, we need to haveclear team priorities; why we
exist as a team and this is howwe work together.
So it's very important to haveworking agreements.
(18:17):
How we work as a team, code ofconduct, how we work together,
what's our, for example, ourworking hours, how we are
sharing our information, whatkind of ratio of synchronous,
asynchronous communications wehave.
So team culture is not onlyhaving this fun together, but
(18:39):
it's also to do work together.
And for this we need to haveexplicit agreements.
And what I see most of theteams, they don't have any
working agreements.
And this is also something thatis done during retrospectives or
team meetings, brainstormingmeetings, where we decide how we
work as a team.
(18:59):
And this is not somethingwritten in stone, we experiment
with this, and then we mightadd, remove, change those
working agreements.
The more the team develops, themore it changes also.
Harv (19:13):
A lot of the way we work, we end up creating these
patterns, whether it's thisweekly team meeting or, or
things like that.
But what you're saying is thatit's useful to have this
documented as well so thateveryone can reference it and it
becomes not just knowledgefloating in people's head, but
it's a codified practice and itjust helps get everybody on the
(19:36):
same page.
Julia (19:38):
And overall, it should not be something very long.
The longer, the more chancesthat people will not remember.
So
Harv (19:45):
Okay.
Julia (19:45):
three rules, it's cool.
If it's five rules, it's alsogood.
Harv (19:49):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Julia (19:49):
for example, documentation, it also might be
part of working agreements.
What kind of documentation wehave, where we keep this, what
is necessary.
And how we collaborate, whatkind of tools we are using.
It might be also part of this.
Harv (20:04):
Okay.
Yeah.
Super interesting.
You know, ops people, they haveto be responsible often for
creating the agency handbook SoThat's a great place to start
collating this information sothat new starters can reference
it and your existing team has aplace to go look at that best
practice as well for the agency.
So we're going to move on to thefourth area you highlighted in
(20:29):
company culture.
It's continuous improvement.
So, tell us about that.
Julia (20:35):
So continuous improvement is that we are never at ideal
state.
We always can be better.
And those incremental changes,little by little, they sum up in
great improvements and the teamsregularly set time aside, just
sit together and think how theywork as a team, what they can
(20:57):
improve.
And there is no best practicesbecause best practice is
something that suits the bestfor your team at this exact
period of time.
In one year, your best practicewill be different, so it's
always this fluid state.
And so this, this is what we aredoing to become better all the
(21:18):
time.
Harv (21:19):
Super interesting.
And I think the point ofcontinuous improvement will and
should really resonate with ouraudience of Ops leaders because
that's what ops is all aboutcontinually improving the way
you're working for betterresults in your business.
So Julia, something youmentioned was retrospectives.
As You know,, I'm, I'm quitefamiliar with postmortems for
(21:40):
projects, but I thinkretrospectives are slightly
different.
They're not necessarily linkedto projects.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
So we understand what that meansand how we can bring it in.
Julia (21:49):
Retrospective, they are kind of like postmortems, but
they are not necessary connectedto some big initiatives or
projects they can be done on aregular basis.
And this is one of the practiceof agile teams; they do
retrospective on this regularbasis, some of them maybe even
weekly but most common cadenceis bi weekly or monthly.
(22:14):
So they Look at their way ofworking and think what works
well for them.
And then to think on the thingsthat might be, to look at the
things that might be not soideal, which might be changed or
removed or stopped, or maybe newexperiments might be done.
And also we never know what willwork for us.
(22:37):
Everything that we decide there,it's still kind of experiment.
And then during the nextretrospectives, we look at this,
okay, we tried this, did it workor not?
And then we might continue withthis or try something different.
Harv (22:52):
Super interesting, and I think I can see the value of,
you know, scheduling those inyour calendar.
So there's a regular cadence ofthem to encourage you to have
those conversations to seewhat's worked well and what you
need to change.
So yeah, definitely book thosein your calendars with your
teams.
Thank you for that.
(23:12):
Okay.
So we're going to move into ourlast area of company culture,
which is psychological safety.
So tell us about that.
Julia (23:21):
Psychological safety is about feeling safe to be not
perfect, maybe.
To make mistakes.
To be a human, basically.
Many of us are afraid to showwho we are at work because we
need to be perfect, alwaysright, never ask for help, stuff
like this.
(23:41):
And psychological safety iscreating the environment where
people will not be afraid tospeak up, they know that they
will not be punished for this.
If they don't know how to dothings, it will be safe to admit
this and ask for help than justto try to cope themselves and
(24:03):
maybe have some big mishaps.
And here the role of leaders isvery important to promote this
environment where people feelsafe to be not perfect.
So leaders need to help peopleadmit their mistakes by
admitting their own mistakes.
(24:23):
So if leader says that okay, Iwas wrong or I made mistake then
for others it will be easier todo the same.
Or for example asking questionswhen I don't know something I
don't keep silent.
You probably have seen thosesituations when somebody talking
about something and everybody islike nodding and then somebody
asks, but what are you talkingabout, I don't understand, and
(24:45):
then everybody else says yes, Idid not understand either.
And this is like.
Okay, some brave person was ableto admit this.
But of course, if you areadmitting your mistakes, and
then you get punished for this,you will never admit your
mistake again, yeah?
Harv (25:02):
Super interesting.
Well, first of all, I reallyappreciate that you, brought
this up as one of your key areasof company culture, because I
maybe thought I knew whatpsychological safety was, but it
was probably a very skewed, ideaof that concept based on things
that I've seen on social mediawhereas the way you've described
(25:22):
it, makes so much more sense andit sounds like a really, it
sounds fantastic.
So yeah, I really understandthat much better.
Thank you for that.
So what advice would you give toops leaders who want to make
sure that everyone on their teamfeels involved, valued and
connected and want to create areally positive company culture?
(25:42):
Maybe that's kind of a bit of arecap or just combining the best
of your advice, so people can goaway and try to apply some of
this stuff.
Julia (25:52):
The first step would be engaging in listening and small
talk on regular basis, which iscreating for people the feeling
that they are important.
It also reduces anxiety forpeople.
When you're remote, you feelthat maybe something is
happening.
And if your leader's routinelytalking to you, involving in
(26:14):
some small talk in written formor during those online meetings,
it creates this feeling that youare important, you are
respected, you matter.
They're interested in you andyou create these feelings of
belonging.
So this is very small thing butif leader is always busy focused
(26:35):
on efficiency, then for others,it will be the signal that
others need to behave the same.
Harv (26:42):
And, you know, in my opinion, sometimes, you have to
do the smaller, easier thingsfirst.
Like, if you try to do the grandefforts, I think there's a
missed opportunity because youcan start very small and simple
and that is kind of the warmthyou bring in the small
conversations.
If you're not doing that, thegrand things might end up
feeling superficial andartificial and you're trying to
(27:05):
model best practice rather thanactually having warmth between
people.
Mm-Hmm.
Julia (27:11):
and be like really natural in this.
So not just some how are you andthen not listening to answer but
really listening.
interacting in the conversation,seeing the person behind the
screen or this written form.
So this is like very small step,but this needs to be integrated
everywhere.
(27:31):
Then maybe, create those,interactions when everybody can,
collaborate, in creatingsolutions together,
brainstorming.
So those decisions are not madeonly by people who are on site,
but involving remote people.
Ensuring that those whoparticipate on meetings
(27:52):
remotely, they have the sameopportunities than everybody
else.
So when at least one person isremote, it's better to have
fully remote meeting.
Then everybody has theirscreens, they are part of this
video call and creating thisexperience equal for everybody.
And again, those regular checkins, one on ones, having those
(28:15):
just to understand what ishappening.
This is very important part ofleadership.
Also all this silliness stuff.
It might be not so much forleaders to be involved there,
but this, it sends very clearmessage how things in the
company are done.
And if you would like to havethis great company culture, then
(28:35):
besides those serious topics,our goals, our targets.
We spend a lot of time together,it's great for company culture
to have those interactions.
Harv (28:49):
Very, very good points.
One other thing that I wanted tospeak to you about Julia is
cultural norms in internationalcompanies, we're very used to
working remotely, but alsohaving colleagues, you know,
across the world and there'sdifferent expectations in
different parts of the worldabout what is normal.
(29:09):
How do you find something thatworks for everyone?
Julia (29:13):
This is very interesting Harv, because our cultural
differences shape us, ourcultural norms shape us much
more than we think, and ourcultural differences might be
very big.
And so I would really recommendto read the book of Erin Meyer,
The Culture Map.
(29:33):
She talks about eight scaleswhere we might be very
different.
For example how we relate toleadership, either hierarchical
or egalitarian.
How we perceive time; for somepeople it's very important to be
on time for some cultures, it'stotally okay to be quite late.
(29:54):
How we are decision making as ateam or top down.
And also this trust for somecultures trust is really like
this head based cognitive trust;you are doing tasks and that's
it and for others it would berelationship based.
And so we might have verydifferent norms in our culture.
(30:18):
And when we put together as ateam, it creates a conflict.
So I would think that first stepis just acknowledge that we are
different.
It's really good to have somekind of cultural awareness
workshop.
You can use different materialto talk about this.
Like for me, it's important tohave small talk.
(30:38):
And for me, it's not important.
For me, it's important to be ontime for me, is not important.
I think that decision makingshould be done this way, I don't
think.
We see our differences.
The next step is just to createcommon agreements.
And here again, workingagreements is very important.
Where we explicitly decide how,for example, we made decisions
(31:02):
in this type of setup where weare very different.
So this is where we need tofirst talk and then agree.
Harv (31:11):
Super, super interesting.
Thank you for that.
Um, I don't know if it's a bitof a tangent, but it's related
to working from home.
There are times where you canfeel, at least I sometimes feel
that there's a bit ofloneliness, but when you're
working on something difficult,you can also get quite anxious.
And sometimes having peoplearound can be helpful, but you
know, if you're in a full remoterole that can be difficult.
(31:33):
I've recently come across thisconcept of body doubling.
So body doubling is the ideathat you are on a video call and
you don't have to becollaborating with that person
or speaking to them, but simplyjust having your camera on
whether it's a coworker or afriend or a complete stranger.
(31:55):
And there's websites such asflow.
club, there's flown.
com and there's loads of themout there that let you log in
and then you just join a virtualmeeting room with other people
that are studying or working andgetting their stuff done and
simply having their presencethere and seeing other people
(32:15):
working not only motivates youto keep going, but it fills that
feeling of being alone and justhaving to do stuff on your own.
I've found this reallyinteresting and I found it
really helpful as well.
So that's something, if you areremote that, you know, you could
look into.
Julia (32:32):
Yeah, the
Harv (32:33):
So
Julia (32:33):
is that I think it should not be made mandatory
Harv (32:36):
I absolutely agree.
And that's not what I'm implyingat all.
We'll put some links in theepisode notes if anyone's
interested in looking into itmore.
Also, we'll put a link in theepisode notes about the Culture
Map, which is the book youmentioned by Erin Meyer about
cross cultural differences,which you said had a big impact
on you.
So, Julia, lots of reallyinteresting ideas that you've
(32:58):
shared here.
If anyone's looking for moreinformation or, you know, learn
more about your workshops or thestuff that you're sharing, where
can they find you?
What's your website and, wherecan they find you on LinkedIn?
Julia (33:10):
You can find me, I have a website juliavastrik.
com and also I am present inLinkedIn.
So keep in touch.
Harv (33:19):
Excellent.
And Julia is J U L I A V A S T RI K dot com.
And I would strongly encourageyou to check out Julia's website
and follow her on LinkedIn.
Like I said, she's a regularcontributor on LinkedIn and
always has really smart advicefor people that are looking just
(33:40):
to improve collaboration andteam function.
So do check that out.
Julia, it's really nice to speakto someone that really gets this
stuff.
So I've really enjoyed that.
Julia (33:49):
Thank you, Harv.
It was very interesting for meto have this talk.
Harv (33:52):
Excellent.
Thank you so much.
Hi all.
I hope you enjoyed thatconversation with Julia.
Company culture is such animportant area for us to
consider as it has such a hugeimpact on employee experience,
motivation, and overallhappiness.
We all want to work somewherewhere we feel respected, where
we can do the work that we'regreat at and appreciated for,
and where we can build greatfriendships.
(34:14):
Like Julia was saying, it's thelittle things that can add up to
make a big difference.
There was a lot there to sinkyour teeth into.
So what we're going to do iscopy some of the key points
under each of these categoriesJulia had highlighted and put
them in the episode notes forthis podcast so you can go back
and reference them and see whichones you want to bring into your
(34:36):
workplace.
That's it for now.
As always, please share thispodcast with your friends and
colleagues and share yourfeedback or suggestions with me
as well.
You can DM me on LinkedIn.
I'm Harv Nagra.
I'd love to hear yoursuggestions on upcoming episode
topics as well.
I look forward to having youback in the next episode.
See you soon.
Hi all, welcome back to the podcast.
We're in the age of remote andhybrid working.
There's a joke that every timeyou step out of your flat in
London, you end up spending 50pounds.
That is a bit of anexaggeration.
But the commute, the coffee, andthe lunch all do add up.
Not to mention the time savings.
But there is a downside to thisas well.
(00:52):
I don't know about yourworkplace, but at my past
agency, I certainly felt thatthe dynamic, friendly, fun
culture we had created changedfollowing the COVID lockdowns.
Even with a hybrid model, a partof that magic was lost, and we
struggled to overcome that.
Where it was easy to have alaugh or a moan, grab lunch
together, or get a beer afterwork to burn off some of the
stress, that's harder to arrangeif not impossible to do at home
(01:15):
and now over the past few monthsI've been in my first fully
remote job.
That's come with its ownchallenges; sometimes feeling
lonely, sometimes feeling likeinteractions end up being very
transactional.
And as an adult, it's been myexperience that the closest
friendships I've made have beenthrough work.
Not only has that made work moreenjoyable for me over my career,
(01:37):
but I've made some lifelongfriendships.
So, in the age of hybrid andremote working, one of my
questions and anxieties hasbeen, what does this mean for
the future of company culture?
Do our careers become just jobs?
Don't all our conversations justbecome transactional if
everything is through a Slackmessage or a scheduled Zoom
call?
(01:58):
Isn't it a sad future when wedon't get to know our co workers
and build a personal connection,and friendships that motivate us
and give us something to lookforward to each day?
And imagine these young peoplecoming up that might only ever
work in remote jobs.
How different will theirworldview be?
So what is the way forward?
Is this just a reality of thisstark future we face?
(02:19):
Is everyone just going to bequiet quitting at home for the
rest of time?
Or is there a way through wherewe can strengthen those
connections, build camaraderie,care about our mission, and have
fun along the way, even withdispersed teams?
As Ops leaders, I do think it'sour responsibility to create
that cohesive, warm, andcollaborative culture.
(02:40):
So that's the topic of today'sdiscussion.
Our guest today is JuliaVastrik.
Julia is an agile coach who hasover 20 years experience in IT
and engineering and over 10years experience in agile
coaching and team facilitationexperience.
She currently works as an agilecoach and also runs her own
consultancy as a team coach andtrainer where she provides
(03:01):
training, coaching andfacilitation services.
She has won the Estonian trainerof the year award and spoken at
several conferences, sharing herexpertise in developing high
performing teams.
Now you might be thinking, I'mnot an engineer or a developer.
How is an agile coach going tohelp me or my agency?
Trust me on this.
And in fact, I would recommendyou go get a pen so you can
(03:22):
write down some of the greatideas Julia is going to present
today.
I'm a big fan of Julia's contenton LinkedIn.
It's very visual and it reallyresonates with me.
I think there's a lot we canlearn from her and after
listening to this discussion, Ihope you'll agree.
And you'll have some practicalideas to bring back to your
workplace on how you can giveyour company culture a tune up.
Let's get into it.
(03:44):
Julia, welcome to the show.
Thank you for being here today.
Our topic is company culture inthe age of remote and hybrid
working.
We were forced to embrace remoteworking a few years ago, and
then many of us have stayed thatway, or at least shifted to
hybrid working.
And a lot of the conversationabout getting back to the office
focuses on out of touch bossesthat are forcing people back
(04:06):
five days a week and people notwanting to do that.
Hybrid is probably a very goodcompromise, but I can't be the
only one that's thinking companyculture and relationships are
suffering as a result of thisnew way of working.
At least I don't think so.
What do you think are some ofthe challenges that remote
working introduces?
Julia (04:26):
Yes, indeed, when we work together with physical space,
many interaction happennaturally, those casual
conversations, jokes and stufflike this, we go to lunches
together; it's difficult toreplicate so easily in remote
environment.
It's possible, but it requiresvery intentional effort, so it
(04:50):
won't happen by itself.
Harv (04:52):
So, you know, before, when we were talking, you mentioned
something about proximity bias.
Can you tell us what that is aswell and how that's relevant?
Julia (05:00):
Yes.
Proximity bias is quite a bigthing in the remote and
especially hybrid workingenvironments.
Proximity bias is our tendencyto favor those who are
physically close to us.
We like them more, we spend moretime with them, we think that
they are maybe moreprofessional, maybe they're more
(05:21):
diligent, maybe they arecontributing more.
It's very important for managersto be aware of this and to
mitigate this bias.
If everybody is remote it'seasier to make everybody equal,
but if part of the team on siteand somebody is far away, then
there are a lot of challenges.
Harv (05:43):
Yeah, I think it ends up being that people have different
experiences depending on wherethey're based.
You're absolutely right.
So, you know, when we thinkabout the areas that we should
pay attention to about companyculture, can you maybe take us
through what those key areasare.
First, let's just maybe listthem and then we can get into a
(06:03):
discussion about some of thosespecifics.
Julia (06:06):
First, building trust and relationships, not only work
related trust and relationships,but different types of trust.
Also to think aboutmiscommunication and
miscommunication to avoidconflict.
Then we also need to think aboutproductivity and collaboration.
One of the most important thingsfor every team, is the culture
(06:27):
of continuous improvements.
It's especially important forremote cultures to experiment.
And also fostering ofpsychological safety.
It goes together with trust, buta little bit different also.
So those areas are veryimportant.
Harv (06:44):
Let's get into each of those areas in a bit more
detail.
So the first was building trustand relationships and the sense
of belonging.
Let's start with that.
Julia (06:53):
Trust and relationships, I put it first because I believe
it's the most important thing inany team and especially in
remote or hybrid environmentsbecause it's easy to overlook
this.
We are a much better team whenwe like people we work with.
And to like people, we need toknow more, know more as
(07:13):
professionals but also asperson.
And in some cultures people arenot so open to talk about
themselves and this is quitechallenging to be with team
members who are quite closed.
But what we can do is to startdoing this first; to reveal a
little bit of our personalitytogether with our
(07:35):
professionalism.
It's also It can be likecognitive trust, like I trust
you as a professional.
I know that you are trustworthy,how you are doing your work, but
also trust on personal level.
I trust you as a person.
I know who you are.
I know your interests and that Ican rely that you are doing the
(07:59):
best for the team.
This is very important, thistype of trust.
And quite often at work we paymost attention to cognitive
trust.
Like you are good professional,check, that's it.
And that's why we need to paymore attention to this soft type
of trust.
The trust which come from heartand it might be touchy feely but
(08:22):
it's kind of very important forus.
And this doesn't mean that Ineed to tell everything about
myself.
There are some things that I'mwilling to tell, for example, my
hobbies or stuff like this.
Some people are more open, somepeople less open.
And it's okay.
And also it's very important tonot reveal some kind of private
(08:42):
information.
Private information is your own.
If you share this, you might putpeople in awkward situation
because, first, they don't wantto know anything like this about
you.
And second, they might feel thatthey now need to reveal their
secrets as well.
No, yeah.
(09:03):
But it's also depends on people,like what is private for you
might be not so private for me.
Harv (09:09):
Understood.
That's really interesting,Julia.
So can you maybe give us someexamples of building trust in
relationships?
So we can feel inspired andmaybe start introducing that at
our workplaces.
Julia (09:21):
It starts with very small things like just everyday
interactions with people.
So when we start our meetings,we can have some small talk and
not just go straight to thepoint.
And we might need to have someintentional exercises, like
icebreakers in the beginning ofthe meetings.
It's really good practice.
(09:42):
Not every meeting, but maybe biweekly meetings, spend five
minutes to answer somequestions.
Something like, what is yourfavorite food?
Who you wanted to become whenyou were a child and stuff like
this to maybe if the teamrelations are already deeper,
you can go to deeper topics.
(10:03):
Also you can do some specialteam building events using some
exercises.
For example, my favorite one ismarket of skills.
Where people present theirprofessional skills.
Everybody create their poster,where they present themselves.
And then they talk aboutthemselves, and then others give
feedback, and it's all veryrevealing information about
(10:27):
people.
In the beginning, when I givethis exercise, people are like,
I need to create this.
And for this, we are usingvirtual, virtual online boards,
or physical boards, if in aphysical space, but during the
exercise, people get much moreexcited, and the atmosphere is
totally different.
But this is like special event,but you can integrate it time to
(10:49):
time.
And silliness is Silliness isvery important.
Having silliness, not only toconcentrate on serious stuff
like efficiency, efficiency,efficiency, but if we have some
channels in our tools where wetalk about anything...
Harv (11:07):
what was on TV last night?
The latest episode of like,house of the Dragon or something
like that.
Julia (11:12):
Yeah these things and sometimes we think that it's
something that we don't need todo because it doesn't have
anything to do with our work,but I get to know you better as
a person.
And for me, it's much easier towork, to ask some questions.
And especially in hybrid workingor remote working, it's more
difficult to ask somebody forhelp because you think I'm
(11:34):
disturbing this person, but thebetter relations we have
together, the easier for me to,to ask you for something.
I know that you are a goodperson.
it's not a problem for you toanswer me when you have this
time.
So you see those small things,they have a big impact, but they
need some intentional effort andsome planning.
(11:57):
So if team is not very big thenwe might have this relaxed
atmosphere naturally, but for big teams it might be more
difficult and especially ifyou're just starting this
journey of building trust andrelationship, people will be
just sitting like this, likevery straight and not talking.
And of course, cameras needs tobe on.
(12:18):
This is awful that stillsometimes on some teams, cameras
are not switched on.
Harv (12:24):
It's a good policy.
Julia (12:26):
Yeah.
It's sometimes, of course thereare some situation.
If you did not have time to eat,you use this time to eat, but
it's more like exceptionalstate.
We are talking to people not tothe black square on our screen.
Harv (12:38):
Mm.
Really good examples there.
Is there anything else youwanted to cover there?
or should we move on?
Julia (12:43):
There are a lot of things we can have some kind of
communities, book clubs,learning together.
These things help a lot and it'shalf work half not work, if, for
example, we would like to learnsome topic together.
For example, AI, and we createthis community.
We will create this importantfeeling that we are part of the
(13:05):
team.
We have this goal together.
And another thing, it's alsovery important to work together
to earn trust to each other asprofessionals.
So we are not doing our tasksseparately, but we are working
on achieving something together.
So not only having fun together,but also working together.
(13:28):
This is something that is veryimportant in remote working.
In remote, sometimes we thinkit's better we are in our house
doing our stuff, and then wemake those status reports
meetings.
But it's better to findpossibilities to work together.
What is important with all thissaid, time to time we need to
(13:50):
have those face to faceactivities to see people for
work and for fun.
Harv (13:56):
That's a good point.
Whether, you can do that monthlyor quarterly or every six months
or, once a year, if you're afully remote company, whatever.
But I think the point is tryingto get people together as well.
So there's that kind of closerrelationship, lots of really,
really good ideas.
And I can see why you putbuilding trust and relationships
at the top of your list.
The second area you mentionedwas communication or
(14:20):
miscommunication.
So why don't we get into that?
Why, why is that important?
And then we'll get into some ofthe examples that we can
introduce.
Julia (14:28):
So written communication is very different from how we
are talking.
So we lose so much informationthere.
And that's why it's really easyto misinterpret.
So if it's some kind of justwork related information, it's
okay, but sometimes we mightfeel that somebody may be
(14:49):
hostile to us, or maybe nothappy with what we've done.
So this here is very importantto be more friendly than you
would usually be.
So be over friendly, to putthose maybe emojis or polite
words or something like this.
If you can use video use video
Harv (15:11):
mm Hmm,
Julia (15:12):
it's better just to have some clip or video and sent,
than to write this big textwhere people might misinterpret.
Harv (15:22):
mm
Julia (15:23):
And also to avoid this miscommunication from other
side.
You need to know that somethingmight have been lost in this
written communication.
So always assume goodintentions.
And then if you are not sure,just ask again
Harv (15:42):
hmm, mm
Julia (15:42):
Benefit of doubt here is very important because
Harv (15:45):
good point.
Julia (15:46):
most of those things are just our misinterpretations of
what is happening.
Harv (15:52):
mm hmm.
Julia (15:52):
this is work from both sides.
One side needs to be overlyfriendly.
Other side need to be overlyaccepting
Harv (16:02):
Yeah.
Julia (16:03):
in their opinion.
Harv (16:04):
Okay.
Super interesting.
And yeah, I definitely recognizethis as well.
You know, when people aretalking, you can hear the tone
in their voice.
You can see their eye contact.
You can see a smile and thingslike that.
And that's completely gone ifyou don't make the effort in
text communications, if youdon't say the friendly greeting
or the emoji.
And just get straight intobusiness.
(16:24):
It can just come across as a bitblunt.
So you mentioned some examplesalready.
Is there anything else thatcomes to mind we can introduce
to make sure that we're buildingpositive communication?
Julia (16:35):
Again, it's very good idea to use the meetings as an
opportunity to connect to eachother.
So again, not only make themtransactional, but to have a
good laugh and to show yourpersonality more, to start
meeting well, to finish meetingwell, So meetings are very
important to build this trust.
Harv (16:57):
Mm hmm.
Since we don't have the benefitwhen we're working remotely of
having our colleagues with us tohave that warmth and connection
and interaction, using some ofthat meeting time, and it
doesn't have to be long, but tojust share some warmth and
friendliness and catch up andthings like that is really
important to not make it feel sotransactional.
The other thing that you saidthat really kind of resonated
(17:19):
with me was the use of a videomessage to communicate instead
of writing a long paragraph.
And I, I do that sometimes andtools like Slack make that
really easy to record a littlevoice note or a video message
that you can send and savingyourself typing a paragraph of
text, and like you're saying,the benefit of that is also
communicating some of the, the,the tone of voice and the warmth
(17:42):
and, a bit of friendliness aswell.
So let's get into the next area,productivity and collaboration.
Why is that relevant to companyculture?
And then we'll get into some ofthe examples.
Julia (17:56):
Okay, so a company, we exist first of all to achieve
some goals.
And this is very important forus to, to be informed by this
big goal.
So as a team, we need to haveclear team priorities; why we
exist as a team and this is howwe work together.
So it's very important to haveworking agreements.
(18:17):
How we work as a team, code ofconduct, how we work together,
what's our, for example, ourworking hours, how we are
sharing our information, whatkind of ratio of synchronous,
asynchronous communications wehave.
So team culture is not onlyhaving this fun together, but
(18:39):
it's also to do work together.
And for this we need to haveexplicit agreements.
And what I see most of theteams, they don't have any
working agreements.
And this is also something thatis done during retrospectives or
team meetings, brainstormingmeetings, where we decide how we
work as a team.
(18:59):
And this is not somethingwritten in stone, we experiment
with this, and then we mightadd, remove, change those
working agreements.
The more the team develops, themore it changes also.
Harv (19:13):
A lot of the way we work, we end up creating these
patterns, whether it's thisweekly team meeting or, or
things like that.
But what you're saying is thatit's useful to have this
documented as well so thateveryone can reference it and it
becomes not just knowledgefloating in people's head, but
it's a codified practice and itjust helps get everybody on the
(19:36):
same page.
Julia (19:38):
And overall, it should not be something very long.
The longer, the more chancesthat people will not remember.
So
Harv (19:45):
Okay.
Julia (19:45):
three rules, it's cool.
If it's five rules, it's alsogood.
Harv (19:49):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Julia (19:49):
for example, documentation, it also might be
part of working agreements.
What kind of documentation wehave, where we keep this, what
is necessary.
And how we collaborate, whatkind of tools we are using.
It might be also part of this.
Harv (20:04):
Okay.
Yeah.
Super interesting.
You know, ops people, they haveto be responsible often for
creating the agency handbook SoThat's a great place to start
collating this information sothat new starters can reference
it and your existing team has aplace to go look at that best
practice as well for the agency.
So we're going to move on to thefourth area you highlighted in
(20:29):
company culture.
It's continuous improvement.
So, tell us about that.
Julia (20:35):
So continuous improvement is that we are never at ideal
state.
We always can be better.
And those incremental changes,little by little, they sum up in
great improvements and the teamsregularly set time aside, just
sit together and think how theywork as a team, what they can
(20:57):
improve.
And there is no best practicesbecause best practice is
something that suits the bestfor your team at this exact
period of time.
In one year, your best practicewill be different, so it's
always this fluid state.
And so this, this is what we aredoing to become better all the
(21:18):
time.
Harv (21:19):
Super interesting.
And I think the point ofcontinuous improvement will and
should really resonate with ouraudience of Ops leaders because
that's what ops is all aboutcontinually improving the way
you're working for betterresults in your business.
So Julia, something youmentioned was retrospectives.
As You know,, I'm, I'm quitefamiliar with postmortems for
(21:40):
projects, but I thinkretrospectives are slightly
different.
They're not necessarily linkedto projects.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
So we understand what that meansand how we can bring it in.
Julia (21:49):
Retrospective, they are kind of like postmortems, but
they are not necessary connectedto some big initiatives or
projects they can be done on aregular basis.
And this is one of the practiceof agile teams; they do
retrospective on this regularbasis, some of them maybe even
weekly but most common cadenceis bi weekly or monthly.
(22:14):
So they Look at their way ofworking and think what works
well for them.
And then to think on the thingsthat might be, to look at the
things that might be not soideal, which might be changed or
removed or stopped, or maybe newexperiments might be done.
And also we never know what willwork for us.
(22:37):
Everything that we decide there,it's still kind of experiment.
And then during the nextretrospectives, we look at this,
okay, we tried this, did it workor not?
And then we might continue withthis or try something different.
Harv (22:52):
Super interesting, and I think I can see the value of,
you know, scheduling those inyour calendar.
So there's a regular cadence ofthem to encourage you to have
those conversations to seewhat's worked well and what you
need to change.
So yeah, definitely book thosein your calendars with your
teams.
Thank you for that.
(23:12):
Okay.
So we're going to move into ourlast area of company culture,
which is psychological safety.
So tell us about that.
Julia (23:21):
Psychological safety is about feeling safe to be not
perfect, maybe.
To make mistakes.
To be a human, basically.
Many of us are afraid to showwho we are at work because we
need to be perfect, alwaysright, never ask for help, stuff
like this.
(23:41):
And psychological safety iscreating the environment where
people will not be afraid tospeak up, they know that they
will not be punished for this.
If they don't know how to dothings, it will be safe to admit
this and ask for help than justto try to cope themselves and
(24:03):
maybe have some big mishaps.
And here the role of leaders isvery important to promote this
environment where people feelsafe to be not perfect.
So leaders need to help peopleadmit their mistakes by
admitting their own mistakes.
(24:23):
So if leader says that okay, Iwas wrong or I made mistake then
for others it will be easier todo the same.
Or for example asking questionswhen I don't know something I
don't keep silent.
You probably have seen thosesituations when somebody talking
about something and everybody islike nodding and then somebody
asks, but what are you talkingabout, I don't understand, and
(24:45):
then everybody else says yes, Idid not understand either.
And this is like.
Okay, some brave person was ableto admit this.
But of course, if you areadmitting your mistakes, and
then you get punished for this,you will never admit your
mistake again, yeah?
Harv (25:02):
Super interesting.
Well, first of all, I reallyappreciate that you, brought
this up as one of your key areasof company culture, because I
maybe thought I knew whatpsychological safety was, but it
was probably a very skewed, ideaof that concept based on things
that I've seen on social mediawhereas the way you've described
(25:22):
it, makes so much more sense andit sounds like a really, it
sounds fantastic.
So yeah, I really understandthat much better.
Thank you for that.
So what advice would you give toops leaders who want to make
sure that everyone on their teamfeels involved, valued and
connected and want to create areally positive company culture?
(25:42):
Maybe that's kind of a bit of arecap or just combining the best
of your advice, so people can goaway and try to apply some of
this stuff.
Julia (25:52):
The first step would be engaging in listening and small
talk on regular basis, which iscreating for people the feeling
that they are important.
It also reduces anxiety forpeople.
When you're remote, you feelthat maybe something is
happening.
And if your leader's routinelytalking to you, involving in
(26:14):
some small talk in written formor during those online meetings,
it creates this feeling that youare important, you are
respected, you matter.
They're interested in you andyou create these feelings of
belonging.
So this is very small thing butif leader is always busy focused
(26:35):
on efficiency, then for others,it will be the signal that
others need to behave the same.
Harv (26:42):
And, you know, in my opinion, sometimes, you have to
do the smaller, easier thingsfirst.
Like, if you try to do the grandefforts, I think there's a
missed opportunity because youcan start very small and simple
and that is kind of the warmthyou bring in the small
conversations.
If you're not doing that, thegrand things might end up
feeling superficial andartificial and you're trying to
(27:05):
model best practice rather thanactually having warmth between
people.
Mm-Hmm.
Julia (27:11):
and be like really natural in this.
So not just some how are you andthen not listening to answer but
really listening.
interacting in the conversation,seeing the person behind the
screen or this written form.
So this is like very small step,but this needs to be integrated
everywhere.
(27:31):
Then maybe, create those,interactions when everybody can,
collaborate, in creatingsolutions together,
brainstorming.
So those decisions are not madeonly by people who are on site,
but involving remote people.
Ensuring that those whoparticipate on meetings
(27:52):
remotely, they have the sameopportunities than everybody
else.
So when at least one person isremote, it's better to have
fully remote meeting.
Then everybody has theirscreens, they are part of this
video call and creating thisexperience equal for everybody.
And again, those regular checkins, one on ones, having those
(28:15):
just to understand what ishappening.
This is very important part ofleadership.
Also all this silliness stuff.
It might be not so much forleaders to be involved there,
but this, it sends very clearmessage how things in the
company are done.
And if you would like to havethis great company culture, then
(28:35):
besides those serious topics,our goals, our targets.
We spend a lot of time together,it's great for company culture
to have those interactions.
Harv (28:49):
Very, very good points.
One other thing that I wanted tospeak to you about Julia is
cultural norms in internationalcompanies, we're very used to
working remotely, but alsohaving colleagues, you know,
across the world and there'sdifferent expectations in
different parts of the worldabout what is normal.
(29:09):
How do you find something thatworks for everyone?
Julia (29:13):
This is very interesting Harv, because our cultural
differences shape us, ourcultural norms shape us much
more than we think, and ourcultural differences might be
very big.
And so I would really recommendto read the book of Erin Meyer,
The Culture Map.
(29:33):
She talks about eight scaleswhere we might be very
different.
For example how we relate toleadership, either hierarchical
or egalitarian.
How we perceive time; for somepeople it's very important to be
on time for some cultures, it'stotally okay to be quite late.
(29:54):
How we are decision making as ateam or top down.
And also this trust for somecultures trust is really like
this head based cognitive trust;you are doing tasks and that's
it and for others it would berelationship based.
And so we might have verydifferent norms in our culture.
(30:18):
And when we put together as ateam, it creates a conflict.
So I would think that first stepis just acknowledge that we are
different.
It's really good to have somekind of cultural awareness
workshop.
You can use different materialto talk about this.
Like for me, it's important tohave small talk.
(30:38):
And for me, it's not important.
For me, it's important to be ontime for me, is not important.
I think that decision makingshould be done this way, I don't
think.
We see our differences.
The next step is just to createcommon agreements.
And here again, workingagreements is very important.
Where we explicitly decide how,for example, we made decisions
(31:02):
in this type of setup where weare very different.
So this is where we need tofirst talk and then agree.
Harv (31:11):
Super, super interesting.
Thank you for that.
Um, I don't know if it's a bitof a tangent, but it's related
to working from home.
There are times where you canfeel, at least I sometimes feel
that there's a bit ofloneliness, but when you're
working on something difficult,you can also get quite anxious.
And sometimes having peoplearound can be helpful, but you
know, if you're in a full remoterole that can be difficult.
(31:33):
I've recently come across thisconcept of body doubling.
So body doubling is the ideathat you are on a video call and
you don't have to becollaborating with that person
or speaking to them, but simplyjust having your camera on
whether it's a coworker or afriend or a complete stranger.
(31:55):
And there's websites such asflow.
club, there's flown.
com and there's loads of themout there that let you log in
and then you just join a virtualmeeting room with other people
that are studying or working andgetting their stuff done and
simply having their presencethere and seeing other people
(32:15):
working not only motivates youto keep going, but it fills that
feeling of being alone and justhaving to do stuff on your own.
I've found this reallyinteresting and I found it
really helpful as well.
So that's something, if you areremote that, you know, you could
look into.
Julia (32:32):
Yeah, the
Harv (32:33):
So
Julia (32:33):
is that I think it should not be made mandatory
Harv (32:36):
I absolutely agree.
And that's not what I'm implyingat all.
We'll put some links in theepisode notes if anyone's
interested in looking into itmore.
Also, we'll put a link in theepisode notes about the Culture
Map, which is the book youmentioned by Erin Meyer about
cross cultural differences,which you said had a big impact
on you.
So, Julia, lots of reallyinteresting ideas that you've
(32:58):
shared here.
If anyone's looking for moreinformation or, you know, learn
more about your workshops or thestuff that you're sharing, where
can they find you?
What's your website and, wherecan they find you on LinkedIn?
Julia (33:10):
You can find me, I have a website juliavastrik.
com and also I am present inLinkedIn.
So keep in touch.
Harv (33:19):
Excellent.
And Julia is J U L I A V A S T RI K dot com.
And I would strongly encourageyou to check out Julia's website
and follow her on LinkedIn.
Like I said, she's a regularcontributor on LinkedIn and
always has really smart advicefor people that are looking just
(33:40):
to improve collaboration andteam function.
So do check that out.
Julia, it's really nice to speakto someone that really gets this
stuff.
So I've really enjoyed that.
Julia (33:49):
Thank you, Harv.
It was very interesting for meto have this talk.
Harv (33:52):
Excellent.
Thank you so much.
Hi all.
I hope you enjoyed thatconversation with Julia.
Company culture is such animportant area for us to
consider as it has such a hugeimpact on employee experience,
motivation, and overallhappiness.
We all want to work somewherewhere we feel respected, where
we can do the work that we'regreat at and appreciated for,
and where we can build greatfriendships.
(34:14):
Like Julia was saying, it's thelittle things that can add up to
make a big difference.
There was a lot there to sinkyour teeth into.
So what we're going to do iscopy some of the key points
under each of these categoriesJulia had highlighted and put
them in the episode notes forthis podcast so you can go back
and reference them and see whichones you want to bring into your
(34:36):
workplace.
That's it for now.
As always, please share thispodcast with your friends and
colleagues and share yourfeedback or suggestions with me
as well.
You can DM me on LinkedIn.
I'm Harv Nagra.
I'd love to hear yoursuggestions on upcoming episode
topics as well.
I look forward to having youback in the next episode.
See you soon.
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