January 14, 2025 • 34 mins
This year, Gen Z are due to make up over a quarter of the workforce – a huge proportion. But both the negative headlines and moaning around the watercooler have commenced. Claims of entitlement, laziness, and unreasonable expectations abound.
But is any of it true? And is their approach to work really that detrimental to an efficient workplace?
In this episode, Harv speaks with Isobel Camier, founder of Camier Communications and a training consultant with 15 years of experience in PR and communications. Drawing on her commissioned research into Gen Z in the workplace, Isobel debunks stereotypes and offers actionable strategies for creating a thriving, inclusive environment.
Here’s what Isobel shares in this episode:
- Why values matter: Gen Z is big on purpose and ethics, and their focus on these can help create a more open and accountable workplace.
- Balancing work and mental health: Flexible working and offering mental health resources can help prevent burnout.
- Clear career growth pathways: When you set clear expectations and actually deliver on training promises, it keeps people motivated and excited about their work.
- Technology’s role in engagement: Gen Z’s digital skills are a big asset—embrace AI, tidy up clunky workflows, and let them help your team work smarter.
- Diversity and inclusion: Creating a culture where differences are celebrated and everyone’s voice is heard isn’t just good for Gen Z—it’s good for everyone.
- The power of recognition: Giving regular, meaningful feedback (both the good and the constructive) builds trust and makes the team feel valued and motivated.
Isobel also highlights how open dialogue and listening to employees’ lived experiences can transform workplace culture, making agencies not only better for Gen Z but for everyone.
If you want to attract and retain the best talent in a competitive market, tune in to learn how agency and operational leaders can bridge generational gaps, align workplace practices with modern values, and create a culture that fosters collaboration and success.
View a video summary and get a copy of Isobel’s Gen Z research report on her website
Follow Isobel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isobelcamier/
Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/
Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harv Nagra (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Handbook, the agency
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Now, let's get to the episode.
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Hey all, welcome back to thepodcast.
Do you remember when millennialswere the lazy, entitled ones
with the avocado toastobsession?
Yeah, me too.
Those headlines always irritatedme, especially the idea that we
didn't want to work hard wheneveryone I knew was working
themselves into the ground.
But now, us millennials, are oldnews.
(02:00):
In fact, in the agency world, wemight be the old guard.
And eyes have focused on a newtarget, gen Zed.
Am I supposed to be saying GenZ?
Anyway, accusations aboutentitlement, work ethic, and
motivation are making the roundsagain.
But are they true?
Gen Z is meant to make up 27percent of the workforce in
(02:21):
2025, overtaking baby boomersfor the first time.
Avoidance isn't an option.
And understanding how toattract, motivate, and
collaborate with them is abusiness imperative.
Our guest today is IsobelCamier, and she's going to talk
to us about this.
She's the founder of CamierCommunications, and they've
commissioned research on thisarea, which she'll be sharing
(02:42):
with us today.
With 15 years of industryexperience in PR and comms on
both the agency and client side,Izzy launched her training
consultancy in 2020.
Working with agencies, she helpsleadership to nurture and retain
talent by upskillingindividuals, supporting team
culture, and developingleadership.
(03:03):
Her aim and passion is abouthelping people get the best out
of their careers.
She's also a founding member ofFemale Founders Rise and a
mentor with the Girls Network.
I'm really excited to see whatwe can learn from Izzy about
working with Gen Zed.
So let's get into it.
Izzy, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Isobel Camier (03:23):
Thank you very much for having me, Harv.
Harv Nagra (03:25):
So we are talking about generations today and gen
Zed in particular.
I know there's a bit of debateoften about where the lines are,
but, can you take us throughthat a little bit?
Isobel Camier (03:36):
Z, more often than not, it's said that they're
born post 1997.
Harv Nagra (03:40):
Mm hmm,
Isobel Camier (03:41):
then generally up to the late 2010s.
So 2010 is, is approximately thecutoff.
And they currently make up upabout 20 percent of the UK
workforce, which already is a,is a huge amount.
And I think I'm right in sayingby the year 2030, they will make
up 30 percent of the UKworkforce.
Harv Nagra (04:02):
I've seen numbers saying in 2025, it's going to be
27 percent of the workforce andnumbers even steeper by 2030.
So you've commissioned someresearch on Zed and some key
themes came out.
We're going to be exploringthose in a few moments, some,
line managers, in this case,very likely millennials, making
up the majority of the workforcenow might be thinking, why
(04:24):
should we change the way we'reworking for this new generation
coming in?
Why can't they fall into line?
And, ironically, thosemillennials, Probably had a
similar reaction from their linemanagers, several years ago.
So it's funny how things comefull circle, but what would you
say to someone saying, whyshould we make exceptions or
change the way we're working?
Isobel Camier (04:43):
Yeah, it's an interesting one.
I would say, first of all, I'drespond by asking Is what you're
doing working a hundred percentof the time.
Has leadership and management inthe places that you have worked
never sort of evolved, changed,or has it ever been different?
We also know, and plenty ofstudies and research tell us
(05:06):
that, cultures work better,workplaces are better, when
they're really inclusive.
So putting those two thingstogether.
In my opinion, we should bewelcoming this new group, and
listening to them, understandingwhat it is that they value, what
it is that they like, what it isthat they want, what their
(05:27):
preferences are, and also listento their lived experiences.
Yes, they might be younger, but
Harv Nagra (05:33):
Hmm.
Isobel Camier (05:33):
why is that of any less value?
It's absolutely not.
So I think what should behappening
Harv Nagra (05:40):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (05:40):
managers, leaders should be welcoming the
opportunity to
Harv Nagra (05:45):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (05:46):
And find out what it is that Generation Z want
There's going to be a lot ofthem.
There is already.
Harv Nagra (05:51):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (05:51):
what, are we just going to be angry and not listen
to them?
We should definitely employ allthe empathy skills that we have.
Ask loads of questions, haveloads of curiosity.
Harv Nagra (06:03):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (06:03):
sure we're also listening and listening really,
really well as well.
So that there's a two wayrelationship.
There's a dialogue and they canunderstand what is needed in a
workplace for it to function
Harv Nagra (06:13):
Yep.
Isobel Camier (06:14):
to make it work and to make it commercially
viable.
But also we've got to listen tothem.
They're bringing knowledge withthem that we don't have.
They are complete digitalnatives and that experience,
knowledge and ability and skillset is really great for the
businesses that invites them in.
So there's actually a two waylearning opportunity.
Harv Nagra (06:38):
Absolutely.
And I think you're right.
There's no choice but to evolve.
We have no choice to embraceremote working and working from
home and all that kind of stuffbecause of the pandemic.
And now, we can't hit the brakesand resist.
And, Evolution and change justmakes us better.
So it's for the betterment ofthe entire workforce.
(06:59):
Like we were saying a momentago, anything from 25 to 27
percent of your workforce isgoing to be Gen Zed in 2025.
That's a huge proportion.
but like I said, in the intro,the kind of dramatic
stereotyping has already begun.
Some might argue there's sometruth to it.
I've heard things like, let methink, there's that whole work
ethic thing coming up again.
(07:19):
that there's no, there's no.
Passion, they're not willing toprove themselves and there's
that kind of sense of I don'tcare.
I don't need this.
What have you heard?
Isobel Camier (07:31):
I've heard lots.
So doing the job I do, do, I gointo agencies day in, day out.
And it was because of what I washearing that actually, I'm here
now.
I would say that 9 out of 10training sessions that I ran
this year, in a whole variety ofdifferent agencies and other
businesses, and in house commsteams, someone, of some level,
(07:56):
at some point during a session,no matter what it was on, would
mention Gen Z.
We're not sure how to work withthem.
This is what we're finding.
This is what we're seeing.
it was becoming increasinglyobvious that was a need from
agencies and other businesses inbeing able to work out how to
(08:20):
best go forward with the dynamicthat comes with having Gen Zed
around.
So because we've heard a lot, wewere like, okay, something's
going on here.
Let's do the research.
Hence what we've done.
and off the back of that, we'vecome up with these strategies
for leaders and how best tomanage and engage with Gen Z.
Harv Nagra (08:42):
so there was some characteristics that came out in
your research.
Was there five or six?
I can't recall what you said wassix.
Okay.
So we're going to start with thefirst one.
The first one was around Gen Zedbeing values driven and socially
aware.
So this is a big one.
I think hopefully more and moreof us are becoming more values
driven and socially aware.
(09:03):
but what was the most surprisingthing you learned about Gen Z's
expectations in this area?
Isobel Camier (09:07):
I'd say there's something that I'm not most
surprised by, but there'sdefinitely something that I'm
most encouraged by, and that isthe fact that they are value
driven, and they, they do careabout what they're doing.
Purpose within their work is soimportant to them.
I think is only a reallybrilliant thing, right?
Because The world is a bit of aninflection point.
(09:31):
There's a lot of stuff going on.
I think it's what the militaryreturned to as we're living in a
VOCA era.
pretty volatile at the momenton, on a global scale.
Harv Nagra (09:41):
hmm.
Isobel Camier (09:42):
And if you sort of bring that back in and focus
on an individual's needs,desires, they want to ensure
that their jobs are addressingsomething to support the world.
Well, because we need that.
Every time you listen to thenews or, or read anything or for
me even listen to what my kidsbring home in their homework, I
can't believe where we're at and
Harv Nagra (10:03):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (10:04):
devastating and it's it's really sad
Harv Nagra (10:07):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (10:08):
we need Gen Z their value driven approach.
We need them to be sociallyaware because there's a lot of
stuff to sort out and if theycare about it, we're on the
right track, aren't we?
Harv Nagra (10:21):
Um, we need somebody to care about these things and
make some change, otherwisewe're not heading in the right
direction.
So there was a few things that Isaw in your research that you
identified as, areas employerscan address some of these values
and that was, aligning roleswith the mission.
Fostering a culture oftransparency and accountability.
(10:42):
Promoting ethical andsustainable practices.
So we don't need to go into allof those, but if you had to pull
on something there, how wouldyou talk about that?
Isobel Camier (10:51):
First of all, absolutely roles have to have a
clear alignment with where thecompany is going, and the
mission of the business.
They, they want to know.
Harv Nagra (11:00):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (11:01):
the point we were just talking about, how they
contribute to the biggerpicture.
So it's up to managers, it's upto leaders to sort of tell the
story and present them, what'sgoing on, how them as a cog fit
into the whole thing.
But also, Separately to that isthat what an organization does
internally, so it's practicesand how it does things, has to
(11:23):
mirror its advocacy to theoutside world, and I think
that's pretty fundamental,you've got to say what you're
going to do, right?
You've got to walk the talk,which is absolutely, something
that's really crucial to Gen Z.
that should be really crucial toall of us.
Harv Nagra (11:39):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (11:41):
perhaps the second one, I would say, is the
most important.
Harv Nagra (11:44):
So being a better corporate citizen, and really,
having a stance and a point ofview on something.
Was talking to somebody aboutthis yesterday as well, who was
in a bit of a dilemma abouttaking on a new client.
what I was really impressed bywas that they were having a
conversation at their workplaceso that it wasn't just a
business decision and saying,okay, well, this is a lot of
(12:06):
money that could be coming in.
we just have to go through withit.
But the fact that they werehaving a debate and saying, how
do you all feel about thisbefore we make this decision, I
thought was really impressive.
Isobel Camier (12:16):
that's a lot of transparency and honesty that is
being valued which I think is afantastic role modelling.
Harv Nagra (12:23):
Absolutely.
So the next theme was aroundwork life balance and mental
health.
These were kind of hot topicsthat came in your research.
So what did you find there?
Isobel Camier (12:32):
Well, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty
important, isn't it?
It's important for all of us,which we've learnt so
poignantly.
Over the past four years,probably even more than that.
and Gen Z, hold it so dearly wecouldn't not respect it.
So the sort of strategies thatwe're suggesting, it's the
pretty obvious ones, really.
(12:53):
about offering flexible workinghours, remote working
opportunities.
Harv Nagra (12:57):
Mm hm.
Isobel Camier (12:58):
pretty, they're your bread and butter How you
work them is where there'sprobably margin for errors.
So again, it's about clarity ofcommunication and how you let
people know how they can do it.
Also don't offer them somethingand pull it back.
I've heard that a few times thisyear and it's that sort of grey
area that's provided, arguments,let's say, or discussions that
(13:22):
haven't always been the mostpositive.
Also access to mental healthresources.
I think our personal life andour professional life over r
over the past however many yearshave become more and more
merged, particularly as we workfrom home now and that barrier
is a little bit more gray.
Harv Nagra (13:40):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (13:41):
I think impact on our mental health is something
that once upon a time was maybejust dealt with at home.
That's becoming more in theworkspace because it's probably
so impacted by the place thatyou work.
So being able to offer resourcessuch as perhaps even counseling
services, or workshops on stressmanagement and resilience, those
(14:02):
things can be really powerful.
And lastly, I think the mostsimple, is really good for
helping, to actually build trustis to actively encourage
employees to take the fullallotment of their time off of
Harv Nagra (14:19):
hm.
Isobel Camier (14:20):
I can think of many times where, you know, you
get to like December the firstand a leader would come around
and say, well, you still gotthree weeks left to take, or you
still got two weeks.
I've said people would bank uploads of holiday.
Harv Nagra (14:31):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (14:32):
be real efficacy throughout the year when you're
taking it.
You should be planning for this,even if you're not going on
holiday.
And, cost of living makes thatreally difficult for people who,
especially earlier on in theircareers, it doesn't have to be
about big expensive holidays.
It's just about taking time off.
And what does that look like foryou?
(14:52):
That's going to benefit you tobe a better version of yourself.
Harv Nagra (14:56):
Absolutely.
And I think those of us in theUK and Europe are quite
fortunate in the amount ofannual leave or holiday
allocation we get.
You know, in North America,Canada, U S and so on, it's not
as generous.
So even more important you'vegotten smaller allocation to
make sure you're.
Recharging.
and that point about mentalhealth support, I think is so
(15:16):
valuable.
I know friends in Canada who do,get unlimited therapy services
as a benefit through theirworkplaces.
And I've never heard of anythinglike that in the UK.
Isobel Camier (15:26):
Wow.
Harv Nagra (15:26):
that, that is just so valuable and it's so
expensive.
So if that was a perk, I think,it's a huge kind of opportunity
to stand out, and show yourcommitment.
Okay, cool.
So growth and development.
So obviously these people arecoming into the workforce and
this is an area you'veidentified.
And I, I don't know if there'simpatience there or unreasonable
(15:48):
expectations about how quicklythey can climb the ladder and
all that kind of stuff.
So what did you find in thisregard?
Isobel Camier (15:54):
Yeah, that's a really interesting point to have
mentioned actually, Harv.
growth and development is reallyimportant to Gen Z.
it's in the research.
I'm going to try and quote astat.
I think it's something like, 57%percent of Gen Z respondents to
a report by, I think it was theWorkforce Institute, said that
(16:15):
they expect to be promoted atleast once a year.
Harv Nagra (16:19):
Oh, wow.
Isobel Camier (16:19):
yeah, I don't know about you, but it sounds
quite a
Harv Nagra (16:22):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (16:22):
me, and it doesn't meet perhaps the
expectations of the places thatI have worked in.
so, If that's the case, andremember you've got to go listen
and find out is that what theywant, that clear communication
will help understanding on bothsides.
What managers and leaders needto be doing in agencies is to
(16:43):
sort of, provide a clear pathwayfor what career progression is
going to look like.
What Gen Z need is clearexpectations of how to achieve
their success, and it to bedemonstrated and drawn out.
And there's a few things thatmanagers can do to help that.
Harv Nagra (17:04):
Absolutely.
I think, first of all, some ofthose expectations I think might
just be part of being young andinexperienced.
So I think maybe there's a bitof an education exercise and a
lesson there that you need to betransparent in how the business
is doing and making sure you'rekind of putting the foundations
of communicating this kind offinancial, economic and business
(17:25):
performance knowledge acrossyour team and sharing that
regularly so people understandhow the business is doing and so
their expectations are aligned.
But I, I think that point aroundcareer progression is really
important.
just think there's value inhaving that documented as well.
And that's where ops people likethe people listening to this
podcast are really key.
if you've got an agencyhandbook, making sure that's
(17:47):
documented, how are promotionsand pay rises managed.
So people learn that inonboarding and their
expectations are clear rightfrom the beginning.
So really, really valuablepoints there.
Did you mention training aswell?
Isobel Camier (18:01):
Yeah, I'd say first of all, like you said,
particularly for ops people, you
Harv Nagra (18:06):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (18:06):
do development plans look like?
Harv Nagra (18:08):
Mm
Isobel Camier (18:09):
They need to be set out and followed rigorously,
Harv Nagra (18:12):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (18:13):
then regular discussions between managers and
their linees, so to speak.
So that you can set goals andobviously those need to be set
together and then highlight whatit is they need to do more of,
or perhaps even less of, toachieve those goals.
What you can then work ontogether is, like you said, what
training might need to be inplace in order to help them
(18:35):
achieve the goals that you haveboth identified.
So rather than sort of offeringtraining, willy nilly, if you
like, which ends up just being atick box exercise when people
are told what they have to go onto and then they don't really
want to be there.
And by the way, I can alwaystell when those people are in
the room, but it should more beabout understanding those goals
together, getting the linee oremployee to actively want to be
(18:59):
part of it, know that they needto be part of it so that when
they go to the training, itbecomes really rich, really
valuable.
To enable them to grow and thenthey go back to the workplace,
they're fired up, they'reexcited, and they've got
tangible things that they canhelp work through, you know, and
it can be anything, onlinecourses, workshops, full day,
(19:20):
short, half a day, half an hour,lunch learner, it's a great one,
internal, external.
So I think those trainingprograms, are really valuable
Harv Nagra (19:30):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (19:30):
To Gen z.
and I think the last thing Iwould say about this is, Set up
a mentor program.
this can be done internally,externally with a partnership
with another organization.
But if you find someone who'shad a similar career or in a
similar field, perhaps to, toyour Gen Z employee, having a
mentor is a great way to helpnavigate their own career.
(19:53):
I, I benefited from one, withthe CIPR.
I had an amazing mentor, ladycalled Ginny Patton and it
really helped me just that sortof really high level knowledge
and experience.
So yeah, that's something elsethat could be done.
Harv Nagra (20:07):
I really love that.
and, I wish I had a mentor atpoints in my career as well.
So I can see the value in that.
the next thing we're going totalk about was tech and
innovation.
So what did you find and whatcan agencies do to enable this?
Isobel Camier (20:23):
Basically, agencies they just need to get
super comfortable, with theirtech.
Hmm.
It needs to be streamlined, itneeds to be effective, and this
comes down to the really basicfactor, Gen Zs as we all know,
are digital natives.
came out of the womb practicallyon their mobile phones, I think
Harv Nagra (20:42):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (20:43):
they're always on them.
It's really easy for them, tocollaborate, to produce things,
and communicate with people.
So agencies need to be doingexactly the same thing.
They need to be on top of it.
They need to invest in it andthey need to ensure that all of
their digital communications arereally streamlined and really
effective because Gen Z alreadyare.
Harv Nagra (21:04):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (21:05):
this is another example of them sort of entering
the workplace already with askill set that maybe their
employer doesn't necessarily 100percent have.
So this is again, I think, aplace where there's perhaps this
conflict between sort ofknowledge and value, between
what one generation knows andexpects.
Versus what the other generationknows and expects.
(21:26):
Yeah.
hmm.
Yeah.
a simple one really that we'reall talking about in the moment,
AI Agencies have got to embraceit.
They absolutely got to embraceit.
Don't run away from it.
Find out how your workforce canbenefit from it, what platforms
are helpful for them to helpthem be more efficient, more
accurate, more creative,whatever it might be.
Obviously get an AI policy inplace as well.
(21:49):
So I'd say that's prettyfundamental.
and then again, it's aboutoffering training.
So yes, I might have just saidthat Gen Z are massively
digitally savvy, right?
But there's still stuff theydon't know, so maximize actually
upon that opportunity.
Invest in them going to learnmore, whether it's, data
analysis, whether it's on AI ordigital storytelling, invest in
(22:13):
them going to learn thoseskills.
So the employees will benefit,obviously, but your business
will as well.
So I think this whole investmentin tech on behalf of Gen Zed,
Has actually got some realcommercial basis to it as well.
So invest.
Harv Nagra (22:31):
I love that.
I love that.
a couple of things I heard justto feedback is kind of the
tolerance for poor tech andworkflows probably is going to
be quite low because they aredigital natives and they've
grown up with these beautifulapps and stuff like that.
And so if you're coming intosomething that's really clunky,
that's going to be frustrating,there's going to be a lower
tolerance and acceptance ofthat.
(22:51):
and you mentioned the value ofgiving them training
opportunities around the stuffthat they're going to be really
passionate about, like AI.
But I think sometimes you'llalso notice that this younger
cohort has some of those skillsalready.
So there's an opportunity to youknow, allow them to, offer
training for the team and say,you go learn this and develop a
bit of skill in this and youshow the rest of us how to do
(23:12):
this great thing in design or,or whatever.
Excellent.
All right, so the next theme wasaround diverse and inclusive
workplaces.
What did you find and is thereanything that we can take away
in this area?
Isobel Camier (23:23):
Yeah, basically, so when GEDs are, Z people,
Harv Nagra (23:28):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (23:28):
looking for a job, they're actually
researching and looking into,and again, there are stats that
back this up in our research inthe document, say they're
actually looking for anemployer's commitment.
to diversity,
Harv Nagra (23:43):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (23:43):
when they even apply to work.
So to support this, whatagencies need to be doing is
obviously promoting equalopportunities
Harv Nagra (23:52):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (23:53):
diminishing, any biases that there might be in
hiring, promotions.
And even just day to dayoperations.
Those are the really..
that's the really fundamentalthing.
Encourage open dialogue, giveunderrepresented voices, a
platform.
but then the final thing that Iwould say on sort of social
issues, which organizationsshould feel bold enough to take
(24:16):
a stance on, because that's whatGen Z want to see, you've got to
be authentic in your support.
agencies, a lot of them will bedealing with this anyway in the
work that they do, absolutely.
But when you're thinking aboutyourself and the operations,
it's good to remember that tokengestures can be actually just
as, if not more harmful thansilence.
(24:38):
So all of these collectivelywork towards what Gen Zed hold
dear, and that is diversity andinclusion is paramount.
Harv Nagra (24:46):
Excellent.
so the last theme that came outin your research was meaningful
recognition.
So how can agencies implementthat?
Isobel Camier (24:54):
this is a pretty important one and this relates
to the sort of development andgrowth that we mentioned before.
So Gen Zed, what we have learnedis that they really value
regular communication.
again, it's about helping themto sort of, develop throughout
college, university, school.
They'll have had continuous, um,feedback, you know, it's easy
(25:14):
for them to accesselectronically and they're sort
of expecting that as theycontinue into their careers as
well.
So be in a position where youcan offer continuous feedback,
you need really good managersthat are able to conduct really
good reviews.
part of this is that feedbackshould be constant.
So not only in those reviews,but All of the time, there
should be a sort of a continuousfeedback loop, if you like, in
(25:35):
the moment, highlighting what'shappened, how things could be
improved, what the impact was,what the impact should be, if
they change their behavior,really helps with development
goals.
also workplaces should berecognizing individual
contributions, particularly whenit comes to sort of innovation
and creative ideas.
but also on the back of that,what, employers and
(25:57):
organizations should be doing istailoring their rewards.
So it doesn't just have to befinancial, But how else can you
recognise and appreciate Gen Z?
So is it time off?
Is it actually more developmentopportunities?
All of these things to make themfeel really recognised.
Harv Nagra (26:14):
Absolutely.
And that's something I hear andthat's something I felt a lot is
that when you're so busy indelivering the work that you
really forget to celebratesometimes.
Isobel Camier (26:24):
Yes.
Harv Nagra (26:24):
And also, has been difficult times so budgets are
tighter, but there has to stillbe a way to do that.
And it doesn't have to be,splurging on a big party, but
just that, that kind ofrecognition, verbal recognition
and saying, thank you.
Like you're saying is soimportant.
Isobel Camier (26:41):
Yeah, it's so important.
I think when we hear the wordfeedback, we always think it's
critical.
We always think it's criticism,which
Harv Nagra (26:48):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (26:49):
We need to know how to grow.
But positive feedback is one ofthe most powerful things that
you can give as a manager.
and it's something often in mysessions I, people.
just go and do that today.
Just give one person one pieceof positive feedback.
The impact that can make reallybig.
And I think if there's one thingyou could do to improve
relationships with Gen Z,
Harv Nagra (27:09):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (27:11):
really try positive feedback.
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (27:13):
I think all of us spend so much time, just
doubting ourselves and kind ofworrying.
It doesn't matter how old youare or how much experience you
have, the self doubt is alwaysthere.
So somebody breaking you out ofthat train of thought and
saying, okay, you've done thisreally well.
It just, it means a lot.
Right.
So that's all super interesting.
So Izzy, we're going to put alink to your research and to
(27:36):
your website in the episodenotes.
but I guess the key thing thatcomes out for me here is that
none of this sounds shocking,upsetting to me, or like it's
going to ruin things.
And in fact, I think it's theopposite.
Like all of this stuff soundsreally valuable and things that
(27:56):
all of us in the workplace wouldbenefit from.
So it just goes to show that thedramatization and the negativity
is needless, and in fact, it'sjust pushing us to be better
employers and better places ofwork.
Isobel Camier (28:09):
I couldn't agree more.
It's the one thing that we'venoticed.
It's the consistent theme offeedback that we've had from the
research that we have done.
isn't it all just really goodmanagement?
Wouldn't everyone from everygeneration benefit from these
managerial and leadershipsuggestions?
This is just good practice.
And I think if we remember that,we'll do really well.
Harv Nagra (28:31):
Absolutely.
Really, really good advice.
quick question then.
So you do this kind of coachingand training on leadership and,
the workforce in relation to GenZ, what kind of work do you do?
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
Isobel Camier (28:46):
absolutely.
So we have got, based on what wehave discovered, we've got three
different sort of, workshops, ifyou like,
Harv Nagra (28:54):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (28:55):
make an extension of this Gen Z research.
So the
Harv Nagra (28:58):
Hmm.
Isobel Camier (28:58):
that we offer is like a 90 minute focus group
where we're We would come in andhave a bit of a collaborative
session with your Gen Z team andkind of test the insights with
them, see what they think, gettheir feedback, and also listen
to what they'd like to see fromleadership.
It's a bit of an extension, ifyou like, of what I suggested at
the very beginning, I think, ofdifferent generations and Gen Z
(29:21):
just need to listen to eachother.
Harv Nagra (29:22):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (29:23):
second thing that we offer based on the research
and our strategies is half dayleadership program, where we
would come in and we wouldactually help plan how you can
incorporate the strategies intoyour organization.
So very similar to the sort ofbread and butter that we
normally do, but very much witha focus on intergenerational
(29:43):
management.
Harv Nagra (29:44):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (29:45):
And then the third thing that we have started
rolling out to a few agencies isGen Z training workshops.
And actually, this is actuallyworking with Gen Z and equipping
them with the skills and forthem to know how to effectively
collaborate with Gen X,
Harv Nagra (30:04):
So where can people go and find out more about you
and connect with you?
Isobel Camier (30:08):
Yes.
So camiercommunications.Com isour website.
I am on LinkedIn.
So just search for IsobelCamier, and then if one of the
sessions did sound of interestto you, or indeed, if you wanted
your own copy the research.
We've got a deck that you couldperhaps even share with clients
just as a free tool.
(30:28):
So I'd happily send that to you.
So just email meisobel@camiercommunications.Com.
Harv Nagra (30:34):
Excellent.
And the links and the spellingand all that kind of stuff will
be in the episode notes.
Izzy, it's been a pleasurehaving you on the show today and
talk about this.
I can just see the valueimplementing these kinds of
practices and policies wouldjust, would bring to any agency.
So thank you very much for beinghere today.
Isobel Camier (30:51):
Oh, you're welcome.
Thanks so much for having meHarv.
I've really enjoyed it.
Harv Nagra (30:55):
Excellent.
And I hope your first podcastexperience wasn't too bad.
So,
Isobel Camier (30:59):
too bad.
I've survived.
Harv Nagra (31:00):
okay.
All right.
Excellent.
Well, I'll speak to you soon.
Hi all, welcome back.
So is the finger pointingoverblown?
I think so.
There's nothing that Izzy spoketo us about about Gen Z,
so-called demands that aren'tsomething that I wouldn't love
to have in place any place thatI worked.
A quick recap on the themes thatcame out in the research that
(31:20):
she'd commissioned.
Number one, being value drivenand socially aware is very
important.
So things you can do includecreating a culture of
transparency and accountability,letting people know what's going
on in the business honestly.
Also having a point of view andstanding behind it in terms of
ethics and sustainability.
Number two, work life balanceand mental health are important.
(31:43):
Things you can do includeensuring there isn't an
expectation to work 10 or 12hour days on the regular.
Having flexible working policiesin place, looking into benefits
packages that include supportfor mental health and ensuring
your team uses their full timeoff allocation each year.
Number three was around growthand development, Ensuring that
(32:04):
you have clear career paths inplace and ensuring everyone
knows how promotions and payrises are considered.
And don't say you're offeringtraining and then don't actually
offer any training.
Make it work.
Number four was aroundtechnology and innovation.
Gen Zed are true digitalnatives.
So perhaps their tolerance forbad experiences is going to be
(32:25):
quite low.
Invest in training around AI andalso leverage their passion for
tech and platforms to give themopportunities to run training
sessions for your wider team.
Number five was around diverseand inclusive workplaces.
This comes down to creating arespectful environment where
differences are celebrated andeveryone's point of view is
(32:48):
considered.
This was another one where itbackfires if you're talking the
talk but not walking the walk.
And lastly, number six,meaningful recognition.
Everyone wants to feelappreciated, so celebrate and
shout out those wins at anindividual level, but also
ensure you're making time tocelebrate successes as a team.
One thing One thing I got fromthis conversation with Isobel
was to just create dialogue.
(33:08):
If you really want to know whatpeople want, talk to them and
ask them, and you might realizethat what's being said isn't so
unreasonable, but will make youragency a better place to work
for everyone.
That's it for me this week.
If you've enjoyed thisconversation, maybe share it
with someone who's got linemanagement and hiring
(33:30):
responsibilities at your agency.
They might appreciate theinsights.
And if you'd like a cheat sheetwith Izzy's advice, sign up for
the handbook newsletter atscoro.com/podcast.
Scroll down and look for thenewsletter sign up form.
Every other week we send out thenewsletter with a summary of the
episodes so you've got somethingin your inbox that you can
(33:50):
reference.
We'll be back with the nextepisode soon.
Thank you so much for listening.
Thanks for listening to The Handbook, the agency
(00:02):
operations podcast.
This podcast is brought to youby Scoro.
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They presented participants withbank machine interfaces with
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Now, let's get to the episode.
(01:38):
Hey all, welcome back to thepodcast.
Do you remember when millennialswere the lazy, entitled ones
with the avocado toastobsession?
Yeah, me too.
Those headlines always irritatedme, especially the idea that we
didn't want to work hard wheneveryone I knew was working
themselves into the ground.
But now, us millennials, are oldnews.
(02:00):
In fact, in the agency world, wemight be the old guard.
And eyes have focused on a newtarget, gen Zed.
Am I supposed to be saying GenZ?
Anyway, accusations aboutentitlement, work ethic, and
motivation are making the roundsagain.
But are they true?
Gen Z is meant to make up 27percent of the workforce in
(02:21):
2025, overtaking baby boomersfor the first time.
Avoidance isn't an option.
And understanding how toattract, motivate, and
collaborate with them is abusiness imperative.
Our guest today is IsobelCamier, and she's going to talk
to us about this.
She's the founder of CamierCommunications, and they've
commissioned research on thisarea, which she'll be sharing
(02:42):
with us today.
With 15 years of industryexperience in PR and comms on
both the agency and client side,Izzy launched her training
consultancy in 2020.
Working with agencies, she helpsleadership to nurture and retain
talent by upskillingindividuals, supporting team
culture, and developingleadership.
(03:03):
Her aim and passion is abouthelping people get the best out
of their careers.
She's also a founding member ofFemale Founders Rise and a
mentor with the Girls Network.
I'm really excited to see whatwe can learn from Izzy about
working with Gen Zed.
So let's get into it.
Izzy, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Isobel Camier (03:23):
Thank you very much for having me, Harv.
Harv Nagra (03:25):
So we are talking about generations today and gen
Zed in particular.
I know there's a bit of debateoften about where the lines are,
but, can you take us throughthat a little bit?
Isobel Camier (03:36):
Z, more often than not, it's said that they're
born post 1997.
Harv Nagra (03:40):
Mm hmm,
Isobel Camier (03:41):
then generally up to the late 2010s.
So 2010 is, is approximately thecutoff.
And they currently make up upabout 20 percent of the UK
workforce, which already is a,is a huge amount.
And I think I'm right in sayingby the year 2030, they will make
up 30 percent of the UKworkforce.
Harv Nagra (04:02):
I've seen numbers saying in 2025, it's going to be
27 percent of the workforce andnumbers even steeper by 2030.
So you've commissioned someresearch on Zed and some key
themes came out.
We're going to be exploringthose in a few moments, some,
line managers, in this case,very likely millennials, making
up the majority of the workforcenow might be thinking, why
(04:24):
should we change the way we'reworking for this new generation
coming in?
Why can't they fall into line?
And, ironically, thosemillennials, Probably had a
similar reaction from their linemanagers, several years ago.
So it's funny how things comefull circle, but what would you
say to someone saying, whyshould we make exceptions or
change the way we're working?
Isobel Camier (04:43):
Yeah, it's an interesting one.
I would say, first of all, I'drespond by asking Is what you're
doing working a hundred percentof the time.
Has leadership and management inthe places that you have worked
never sort of evolved, changed,or has it ever been different?
We also know, and plenty ofstudies and research tell us
(05:06):
that, cultures work better,workplaces are better, when
they're really inclusive.
So putting those two thingstogether.
In my opinion, we should bewelcoming this new group, and
listening to them, understandingwhat it is that they value, what
it is that they like, what it isthat they want, what their
(05:27):
preferences are, and also listento their lived experiences.
Yes, they might be younger, but
Harv Nagra (05:33):
Hmm.
Isobel Camier (05:33):
why is that of any less value?
It's absolutely not.
So I think what should behappening
Harv Nagra (05:40):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (05:40):
managers, leaders should be welcoming the
opportunity to
Harv Nagra (05:45):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (05:46):
And find out what it is that Generation Z want
There's going to be a lot ofthem.
There is already.
Harv Nagra (05:51):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (05:51):
what, are we just going to be angry and not listen
to them?
We should definitely employ allthe empathy skills that we have.
Ask loads of questions, haveloads of curiosity.
Harv Nagra (06:03):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (06:03):
sure we're also listening and listening really,
really well as well.
So that there's a two wayrelationship.
There's a dialogue and they canunderstand what is needed in a
workplace for it to function
Harv Nagra (06:13):
Yep.
Isobel Camier (06:14):
to make it work and to make it commercially
viable.
But also we've got to listen tothem.
They're bringing knowledge withthem that we don't have.
They are complete digitalnatives and that experience,
knowledge and ability and skillset is really great for the
businesses that invites them in.
So there's actually a two waylearning opportunity.
Harv Nagra (06:38):
Absolutely.
And I think you're right.
There's no choice but to evolve.
We have no choice to embraceremote working and working from
home and all that kind of stuffbecause of the pandemic.
And now, we can't hit the brakesand resist.
And, Evolution and change justmakes us better.
So it's for the betterment ofthe entire workforce.
(06:59):
Like we were saying a momentago, anything from 25 to 27
percent of your workforce isgoing to be Gen Zed in 2025.
That's a huge proportion.
but like I said, in the intro,the kind of dramatic
stereotyping has already begun.
Some might argue there's sometruth to it.
I've heard things like, let methink, there's that whole work
ethic thing coming up again.
(07:19):
that there's no, there's no.
Passion, they're not willing toprove themselves and there's
that kind of sense of I don'tcare.
I don't need this.
What have you heard?
Isobel Camier (07:31):
I've heard lots.
So doing the job I do, do, I gointo agencies day in, day out.
And it was because of what I washearing that actually, I'm here
now.
I would say that 9 out of 10training sessions that I ran
this year, in a whole variety ofdifferent agencies and other
businesses, and in house commsteams, someone, of some level,
(07:56):
at some point during a session,no matter what it was on, would
mention Gen Z.
We're not sure how to work withthem.
This is what we're finding.
This is what we're seeing.
it was becoming increasinglyobvious that was a need from
agencies and other businesses inbeing able to work out how to
(08:20):
best go forward with the dynamicthat comes with having Gen Zed
around.
So because we've heard a lot, wewere like, okay, something's
going on here.
Let's do the research.
Hence what we've done.
and off the back of that, we'vecome up with these strategies
for leaders and how best tomanage and engage with Gen Z.
Harv Nagra (08:42):
so there was some characteristics that came out in
your research.
Was there five or six?
I can't recall what you said wassix.
Okay.
So we're going to start with thefirst one.
The first one was around Gen Zedbeing values driven and socially
aware.
So this is a big one.
I think hopefully more and moreof us are becoming more values
driven and socially aware.
(09:03):
but what was the most surprisingthing you learned about Gen Z's
expectations in this area?
Isobel Camier (09:07):
I'd say there's something that I'm not most
surprised by, but there'sdefinitely something that I'm
most encouraged by, and that isthe fact that they are value
driven, and they, they do careabout what they're doing.
Purpose within their work is soimportant to them.
I think is only a reallybrilliant thing, right?
Because The world is a bit of aninflection point.
(09:31):
There's a lot of stuff going on.
I think it's what the militaryreturned to as we're living in a
VOCA era.
pretty volatile at the momenton, on a global scale.
Harv Nagra (09:41):
hmm.
Isobel Camier (09:42):
And if you sort of bring that back in and focus
on an individual's needs,desires, they want to ensure
that their jobs are addressingsomething to support the world.
Well, because we need that.
Every time you listen to thenews or, or read anything or for
me even listen to what my kidsbring home in their homework, I
can't believe where we're at and
Harv Nagra (10:03):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (10:04):
devastating and it's it's really sad
Harv Nagra (10:07):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (10:08):
we need Gen Z their value driven approach.
We need them to be sociallyaware because there's a lot of
stuff to sort out and if theycare about it, we're on the
right track, aren't we?
Harv Nagra (10:21):
Um, we need somebody to care about these things and
make some change, otherwisewe're not heading in the right
direction.
So there was a few things that Isaw in your research that you
identified as, areas employerscan address some of these values
and that was, aligning roleswith the mission.
Fostering a culture oftransparency and accountability.
(10:42):
Promoting ethical andsustainable practices.
So we don't need to go into allof those, but if you had to pull
on something there, how wouldyou talk about that?
Isobel Camier (10:51):
First of all, absolutely roles have to have a
clear alignment with where thecompany is going, and the
mission of the business.
They, they want to know.
Harv Nagra (11:00):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (11:01):
the point we were just talking about, how they
contribute to the biggerpicture.
So it's up to managers, it's upto leaders to sort of tell the
story and present them, what'sgoing on, how them as a cog fit
into the whole thing.
But also, Separately to that isthat what an organization does
internally, so it's practicesand how it does things, has to
(11:23):
mirror its advocacy to theoutside world, and I think
that's pretty fundamental,you've got to say what you're
going to do, right?
You've got to walk the talk,which is absolutely, something
that's really crucial to Gen Z.
that should be really crucial toall of us.
Harv Nagra (11:39):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (11:41):
perhaps the second one, I would say, is the
most important.
Harv Nagra (11:44):
So being a better corporate citizen, and really,
having a stance and a point ofview on something.
Was talking to somebody aboutthis yesterday as well, who was
in a bit of a dilemma abouttaking on a new client.
what I was really impressed bywas that they were having a
conversation at their workplaceso that it wasn't just a
business decision and saying,okay, well, this is a lot of
(12:06):
money that could be coming in.
we just have to go through withit.
But the fact that they werehaving a debate and saying, how
do you all feel about thisbefore we make this decision, I
thought was really impressive.
Isobel Camier (12:16):
that's a lot of transparency and honesty that is
being valued which I think is afantastic role modelling.
Harv Nagra (12:23):
Absolutely.
So the next theme was aroundwork life balance and mental
health.
These were kind of hot topicsthat came in your research.
So what did you find there?
Isobel Camier (12:32):
Well, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty
important, isn't it?
It's important for all of us,which we've learnt so
poignantly.
Over the past four years,probably even more than that.
and Gen Z, hold it so dearly wecouldn't not respect it.
So the sort of strategies thatwe're suggesting, it's the
pretty obvious ones, really.
(12:53):
about offering flexible workinghours, remote working
opportunities.
Harv Nagra (12:57):
Mm hm.
Isobel Camier (12:58):
pretty, they're your bread and butter How you
work them is where there'sprobably margin for errors.
So again, it's about clarity ofcommunication and how you let
people know how they can do it.
Also don't offer them somethingand pull it back.
I've heard that a few times thisyear and it's that sort of grey
area that's provided, arguments,let's say, or discussions that
(13:22):
haven't always been the mostpositive.
Also access to mental healthresources.
I think our personal life andour professional life over r
over the past however many yearshave become more and more
merged, particularly as we workfrom home now and that barrier
is a little bit more gray.
Harv Nagra (13:40):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (13:41):
I think impact on our mental health is something
that once upon a time was maybejust dealt with at home.
That's becoming more in theworkspace because it's probably
so impacted by the place thatyou work.
So being able to offer resourcessuch as perhaps even counseling
services, or workshops on stressmanagement and resilience, those
(14:02):
things can be really powerful.
And lastly, I think the mostsimple, is really good for
helping, to actually build trustis to actively encourage
employees to take the fullallotment of their time off of
Harv Nagra (14:19):
hm.
Isobel Camier (14:20):
I can think of many times where, you know, you
get to like December the firstand a leader would come around
and say, well, you still gotthree weeks left to take, or you
still got two weeks.
I've said people would bank uploads of holiday.
Harv Nagra (14:31):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (14:32):
be real efficacy throughout the year when you're
taking it.
You should be planning for this,even if you're not going on
holiday.
And, cost of living makes thatreally difficult for people who,
especially earlier on in theircareers, it doesn't have to be
about big expensive holidays.
It's just about taking time off.
And what does that look like foryou?
(14:52):
That's going to benefit you tobe a better version of yourself.
Harv Nagra (14:56):
Absolutely.
And I think those of us in theUK and Europe are quite
fortunate in the amount ofannual leave or holiday
allocation we get.
You know, in North America,Canada, U S and so on, it's not
as generous.
So even more important you'vegotten smaller allocation to
make sure you're.
Recharging.
and that point about mentalhealth support, I think is so
(15:16):
valuable.
I know friends in Canada who do,get unlimited therapy services
as a benefit through theirworkplaces.
And I've never heard of anythinglike that in the UK.
Isobel Camier (15:26):
Wow.
Harv Nagra (15:26):
that, that is just so valuable and it's so
expensive.
So if that was a perk, I think,it's a huge kind of opportunity
to stand out, and show yourcommitment.
Okay, cool.
So growth and development.
So obviously these people arecoming into the workforce and
this is an area you'veidentified.
And I, I don't know if there'simpatience there or unreasonable
(15:48):
expectations about how quicklythey can climb the ladder and
all that kind of stuff.
So what did you find in thisregard?
Isobel Camier (15:54):
Yeah, that's a really interesting point to have
mentioned actually, Harv.
growth and development is reallyimportant to Gen Z.
it's in the research.
I'm going to try and quote astat.
I think it's something like, 57%percent of Gen Z respondents to
a report by, I think it was theWorkforce Institute, said that
(16:15):
they expect to be promoted atleast once a year.
Harv Nagra (16:19):
Oh, wow.
Isobel Camier (16:19):
yeah, I don't know about you, but it sounds
quite a
Harv Nagra (16:22):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (16:22):
me, and it doesn't meet perhaps the
expectations of the places thatI have worked in.
so, If that's the case, andremember you've got to go listen
and find out is that what theywant, that clear communication
will help understanding on bothsides.
What managers and leaders needto be doing in agencies is to
(16:43):
sort of, provide a clear pathwayfor what career progression is
going to look like.
What Gen Z need is clearexpectations of how to achieve
their success, and it to bedemonstrated and drawn out.
And there's a few things thatmanagers can do to help that.
Harv Nagra (17:04):
Absolutely.
I think, first of all, some ofthose expectations I think might
just be part of being young andinexperienced.
So I think maybe there's a bitof an education exercise and a
lesson there that you need to betransparent in how the business
is doing and making sure you'rekind of putting the foundations
of communicating this kind offinancial, economic and business
(17:25):
performance knowledge acrossyour team and sharing that
regularly so people understandhow the business is doing and so
their expectations are aligned.
But I, I think that point aroundcareer progression is really
important.
just think there's value inhaving that documented as well.
And that's where ops people likethe people listening to this
podcast are really key.
if you've got an agencyhandbook, making sure that's
(17:47):
documented, how are promotionsand pay rises managed.
So people learn that inonboarding and their
expectations are clear rightfrom the beginning.
So really, really valuablepoints there.
Did you mention training aswell?
Isobel Camier (18:01):
Yeah, I'd say first of all, like you said,
particularly for ops people, you
Harv Nagra (18:06):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (18:06):
do development plans look like?
Harv Nagra (18:08):
Mm
Isobel Camier (18:09):
They need to be set out and followed rigorously,
Harv Nagra (18:12):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (18:13):
then regular discussions between managers and
their linees, so to speak.
So that you can set goals andobviously those need to be set
together and then highlight whatit is they need to do more of,
or perhaps even less of, toachieve those goals.
What you can then work ontogether is, like you said, what
training might need to be inplace in order to help them
(18:35):
achieve the goals that you haveboth identified.
So rather than sort of offeringtraining, willy nilly, if you
like, which ends up just being atick box exercise when people
are told what they have to go onto and then they don't really
want to be there.
And by the way, I can alwaystell when those people are in
the room, but it should more beabout understanding those goals
together, getting the linee oremployee to actively want to be
(18:59):
part of it, know that they needto be part of it so that when
they go to the training, itbecomes really rich, really
valuable.
To enable them to grow and thenthey go back to the workplace,
they're fired up, they'reexcited, and they've got
tangible things that they canhelp work through, you know, and
it can be anything, onlinecourses, workshops, full day,
(19:20):
short, half a day, half an hour,lunch learner, it's a great one,
internal, external.
So I think those trainingprograms, are really valuable
Harv Nagra (19:30):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (19:30):
To Gen z.
and I think the last thing Iwould say about this is, Set up
a mentor program.
this can be done internally,externally with a partnership
with another organization.
But if you find someone who'shad a similar career or in a
similar field, perhaps to, toyour Gen Z employee, having a
mentor is a great way to helpnavigate their own career.
(19:53):
I, I benefited from one, withthe CIPR.
I had an amazing mentor, ladycalled Ginny Patton and it
really helped me just that sortof really high level knowledge
and experience.
So yeah, that's something elsethat could be done.
Harv Nagra (20:07):
I really love that.
and, I wish I had a mentor atpoints in my career as well.
So I can see the value in that.
the next thing we're going totalk about was tech and
innovation.
So what did you find and whatcan agencies do to enable this?
Isobel Camier (20:23):
Basically, agencies they just need to get
super comfortable, with theirtech.
Hmm.
It needs to be streamlined, itneeds to be effective, and this
comes down to the really basicfactor, Gen Zs as we all know,
are digital natives.
came out of the womb practicallyon their mobile phones, I think
Harv Nagra (20:42):
Mm hmm.
Isobel Camier (20:43):
they're always on them.
It's really easy for them, tocollaborate, to produce things,
and communicate with people.
So agencies need to be doingexactly the same thing.
They need to be on top of it.
They need to invest in it andthey need to ensure that all of
their digital communications arereally streamlined and really
effective because Gen Z alreadyare.
Harv Nagra (21:04):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (21:05):
this is another example of them sort of entering
the workplace already with askill set that maybe their
employer doesn't necessarily 100percent have.
So this is again, I think, aplace where there's perhaps this
conflict between sort ofknowledge and value, between
what one generation knows andexpects.
Versus what the other generationknows and expects.
(21:26):
Yeah.
hmm.
Yeah.
a simple one really that we'reall talking about in the moment,
AI Agencies have got to embraceit.
They absolutely got to embraceit.
Don't run away from it.
Find out how your workforce canbenefit from it, what platforms
are helpful for them to helpthem be more efficient, more
accurate, more creative,whatever it might be.
Obviously get an AI policy inplace as well.
(21:49):
So I'd say that's prettyfundamental.
and then again, it's aboutoffering training.
So yes, I might have just saidthat Gen Z are massively
digitally savvy, right?
But there's still stuff theydon't know, so maximize actually
upon that opportunity.
Invest in them going to learnmore, whether it's, data
analysis, whether it's on AI ordigital storytelling, invest in
(22:13):
them going to learn thoseskills.
So the employees will benefit,obviously, but your business
will as well.
So I think this whole investmentin tech on behalf of Gen Zed,
Has actually got some realcommercial basis to it as well.
So invest.
Harv Nagra (22:31):
I love that.
I love that.
a couple of things I heard justto feedback is kind of the
tolerance for poor tech andworkflows probably is going to
be quite low because they aredigital natives and they've
grown up with these beautifulapps and stuff like that.
And so if you're coming intosomething that's really clunky,
that's going to be frustrating,there's going to be a lower
tolerance and acceptance ofthat.
(22:51):
and you mentioned the value ofgiving them training
opportunities around the stuffthat they're going to be really
passionate about, like AI.
But I think sometimes you'llalso notice that this younger
cohort has some of those skillsalready.
So there's an opportunity to youknow, allow them to, offer
training for the team and say,you go learn this and develop a
bit of skill in this and youshow the rest of us how to do
(23:12):
this great thing in design or,or whatever.
Excellent.
All right, so the next theme wasaround diverse and inclusive
workplaces.
What did you find and is thereanything that we can take away
in this area?
Isobel Camier (23:23):
Yeah, basically, so when GEDs are, Z people,
Harv Nagra (23:28):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (23:28):
looking for a job, they're actually
researching and looking into,and again, there are stats that
back this up in our research inthe document, say they're
actually looking for anemployer's commitment.
to diversity,
Harv Nagra (23:43):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (23:43):
when they even apply to work.
So to support this, whatagencies need to be doing is
obviously promoting equalopportunities
Harv Nagra (23:52):
Mm.
Isobel Camier (23:53):
diminishing, any biases that there might be in
hiring, promotions.
And even just day to dayoperations.
Those are the really..
that's the really fundamentalthing.
Encourage open dialogue, giveunderrepresented voices, a
platform.
but then the final thing that Iwould say on sort of social
issues, which organizationsshould feel bold enough to take
(24:16):
a stance on, because that's whatGen Z want to see, you've got to
be authentic in your support.
agencies, a lot of them will bedealing with this anyway in the
work that they do, absolutely.
But when you're thinking aboutyourself and the operations,
it's good to remember that tokengestures can be actually just
as, if not more harmful thansilence.
(24:38):
So all of these collectivelywork towards what Gen Zed hold
dear, and that is diversity andinclusion is paramount.
Harv Nagra (24:46):
Excellent.
so the last theme that came outin your research was meaningful
recognition.
So how can agencies implementthat?
Isobel Camier (24:54):
this is a pretty important one and this relates
to the sort of development andgrowth that we mentioned before.
So Gen Zed, what we have learnedis that they really value
regular communication.
again, it's about helping themto sort of, develop throughout
college, university, school.
They'll have had continuous, um,feedback, you know, it's easy
(25:14):
for them to accesselectronically and they're sort
of expecting that as theycontinue into their careers as
well.
So be in a position where youcan offer continuous feedback,
you need really good managersthat are able to conduct really
good reviews.
part of this is that feedbackshould be constant.
So not only in those reviews,but All of the time, there
should be a sort of a continuousfeedback loop, if you like, in
(25:35):
the moment, highlighting what'shappened, how things could be
improved, what the impact was,what the impact should be, if
they change their behavior,really helps with development
goals.
also workplaces should berecognizing individual
contributions, particularly whenit comes to sort of innovation
and creative ideas.
but also on the back of that,what, employers and
(25:57):
organizations should be doing istailoring their rewards.
So it doesn't just have to befinancial, But how else can you
recognise and appreciate Gen Z?
So is it time off?
Is it actually more developmentopportunities?
All of these things to make themfeel really recognised.
Harv Nagra (26:14):
Absolutely.
And that's something I hear andthat's something I felt a lot is
that when you're so busy indelivering the work that you
really forget to celebratesometimes.
Isobel Camier (26:24):
Yes.
Harv Nagra (26:24):
And also, has been difficult times so budgets are
tighter, but there has to stillbe a way to do that.
And it doesn't have to be,splurging on a big party, but
just that, that kind ofrecognition, verbal recognition
and saying, thank you.
Like you're saying is soimportant.
Isobel Camier (26:41):
Yeah, it's so important.
I think when we hear the wordfeedback, we always think it's
critical.
We always think it's criticism,which
Harv Nagra (26:48):
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (26:49):
We need to know how to grow.
But positive feedback is one ofthe most powerful things that
you can give as a manager.
and it's something often in mysessions I, people.
just go and do that today.
Just give one person one pieceof positive feedback.
The impact that can make reallybig.
And I think if there's one thingyou could do to improve
relationships with Gen Z,
Harv Nagra (27:09):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Isobel Camier (27:11):
really try positive feedback.
Yeah.
Harv Nagra (27:13):
I think all of us spend so much time, just
doubting ourselves and kind ofworrying.
It doesn't matter how old youare or how much experience you
have, the self doubt is alwaysthere.
So somebody breaking you out ofthat train of thought and
saying, okay, you've done thisreally well.
It just, it means a lot.
Right.
So that's all super interesting.
So Izzy, we're going to put alink to your research and to
(27:36):
your website in the episodenotes.
but I guess the key thing thatcomes out for me here is that
none of this sounds shocking,upsetting to me, or like it's
going to ruin things.
And in fact, I think it's theopposite.
Like all of this stuff soundsreally valuable and things that
(27:56):
all of us in the workplace wouldbenefit from.
So it just goes to show that thedramatization and the negativity
is needless, and in fact, it'sjust pushing us to be better
employers and better places ofwork.
Isobel Camier (28:09):
I couldn't agree more.
It's the one thing that we'venoticed.
It's the consistent theme offeedback that we've had from the
research that we have done.
isn't it all just really goodmanagement?
Wouldn't everyone from everygeneration benefit from these
managerial and leadershipsuggestions?
This is just good practice.
And I think if we remember that,we'll do really well.
Harv Nagra (28:31):
Absolutely.
Really, really good advice.
quick question then.
So you do this kind of coachingand training on leadership and,
the workforce in relation to GenZ, what kind of work do you do?
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
Isobel Camier (28:46):
absolutely.
So we have got, based on what wehave discovered, we've got three
different sort of, workshops, ifyou like,
Harv Nagra (28:54):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (28:55):
make an extension of this Gen Z research.
So the
Harv Nagra (28:58):
Hmm.
Isobel Camier (28:58):
that we offer is like a 90 minute focus group
where we're We would come in andhave a bit of a collaborative
session with your Gen Z team andkind of test the insights with
them, see what they think, gettheir feedback, and also listen
to what they'd like to see fromleadership.
It's a bit of an extension, ifyou like, of what I suggested at
the very beginning, I think, ofdifferent generations and Gen Z
(29:21):
just need to listen to eachother.
Harv Nagra (29:22):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (29:23):
second thing that we offer based on the research
and our strategies is half dayleadership program, where we
would come in and we wouldactually help plan how you can
incorporate the strategies intoyour organization.
So very similar to the sort ofbread and butter that we
normally do, but very much witha focus on intergenerational
(29:43):
management.
Harv Nagra (29:44):
Okay.
Isobel Camier (29:45):
And then the third thing that we have started
rolling out to a few agencies isGen Z training workshops.
And actually, this is actuallyworking with Gen Z and equipping
them with the skills and forthem to know how to effectively
collaborate with Gen X,
Harv Nagra (30:04):
So where can people go and find out more about you
and connect with you?
Isobel Camier (30:08):
Yes.
So camiercommunications.Com isour website.
I am on LinkedIn.
So just search for IsobelCamier, and then if one of the
sessions did sound of interestto you, or indeed, if you wanted
your own copy the research.
We've got a deck that you couldperhaps even share with clients
just as a free tool.
(30:28):
So I'd happily send that to you.
So just email meisobel@camiercommunications.Com.
Harv Nagra (30:34):
Excellent.
And the links and the spellingand all that kind of stuff will
be in the episode notes.
Izzy, it's been a pleasurehaving you on the show today and
talk about this.
I can just see the valueimplementing these kinds of
practices and policies wouldjust, would bring to any agency.
So thank you very much for beinghere today.
Isobel Camier (30:51):
Oh, you're welcome.
Thanks so much for having meHarv.
I've really enjoyed it.
Harv Nagra (30:55):
Excellent.
And I hope your first podcastexperience wasn't too bad.
So,
Isobel Camier (30:59):
too bad.
I've survived.
Harv Nagra (31:00):
okay.
All right.
Excellent.
Well, I'll speak to you soon.
Hi all, welcome back.
So is the finger pointingoverblown?
I think so.
There's nothing that Izzy spoketo us about about Gen Z,
so-called demands that aren'tsomething that I wouldn't love
to have in place any place thatI worked.
A quick recap on the themes thatcame out in the research that
(31:20):
she'd commissioned.
Number one, being value drivenand socially aware is very
important.
So things you can do includecreating a culture of
transparency and accountability,letting people know what's going
on in the business honestly.
Also having a point of view andstanding behind it in terms of
ethics and sustainability.
Number two, work life balanceand mental health are important.
(31:43):
Things you can do includeensuring there isn't an
expectation to work 10 or 12hour days on the regular.
Having flexible working policiesin place, looking into benefits
packages that include supportfor mental health and ensuring
your team uses their full timeoff allocation each year.
Number three was around growthand development, Ensuring that
(32:04):
you have clear career paths inplace and ensuring everyone
knows how promotions and payrises are considered.
And don't say you're offeringtraining and then don't actually
offer any training.
Make it work.
Number four was aroundtechnology and innovation.
Gen Zed are true digitalnatives.
So perhaps their tolerance forbad experiences is going to be
(32:25):
quite low.
Invest in training around AI andalso leverage their passion for
tech and platforms to give themopportunities to run training
sessions for your wider team.
Number five was around diverseand inclusive workplaces.
This comes down to creating arespectful environment where
differences are celebrated andeveryone's point of view is
(32:48):
considered.
This was another one where itbackfires if you're talking the
talk but not walking the walk.
And lastly, number six,meaningful recognition.
Everyone wants to feelappreciated, so celebrate and
shout out those wins at anindividual level, but also
ensure you're making time tocelebrate successes as a team.
One thing One thing I got fromthis conversation with Isobel
was to just create dialogue.
(33:08):
If you really want to know whatpeople want, talk to them and
ask them, and you might realizethat what's being said isn't so
unreasonable, but will make youragency a better place to work
for everyone.
That's it for me this week.
If you've enjoyed thisconversation, maybe share it
with someone who's got linemanagement and hiring
(33:30):
responsibilities at your agency.
They might appreciate theinsights.
And if you'd like a cheat sheetwith Izzy's advice, sign up for
the handbook newsletter atscoro.com/podcast.
Scroll down and look for thenewsletter sign up form.
Every other week we send out thenewsletter with a summary of the
episodes so you've got somethingin your inbox that you can
(33:50):
reference.
We'll be back with the nextepisode soon.
Thank you so much for listening.
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