Are you helping or hindering your delivery team? With Galen Low

Ops Leaders, are you unintentionally making life harder for your delivery team?

Galen Low, co-founder of The Digital Project Manager and host of The Digital Project Manager podcast, joins us to flip the lens, and spotlight the real impact of operational decisions from the delivery floor up.

Galen has spent years helping digital PMs thrive in chaotic environments. In this episode, he shares the signs leaders might be missing when systems break down and how to create structures that support people doing the work.

Here’s what we dive into:

• How layoffs and role blending are pressuring delivery teams
• The hidden cost of heroic project managers who just “make it work”
• What agencies get wrong about tool rollouts (and how to fix it)
• How to better onboard freelance talent
• The link between trust, autonomy, and delivery excellence

Galen also offers advice on listening to your PMs, empowering teams, and building resilience into your operations, without burning people out.

And – this is part one of a two-way podcast exchange! For part two, head over to The DPM Podcast where we flip the mic and explore what it takes to build operational models that truly support delivery.

Additional Resources:

Listen to PART TWO on The Digital Project Manager podcast: https://thedigitalprojectmanager.com/podcast/how-project-managers-can-thrive-in-evolving-agency-models/

The Digital Project Manager website: https://thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership/

DPM on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcgWl0Rda9bHhOJTcIy8XwQ

DPM on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedigitalpm/

Follow Galen Low on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/galen-low-digital-transformation-advisor/

Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/ 

Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter: https://scoro.com/podcast/#handbook

This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.

Episode Transcript

Galen Low (00:00):
Higher up, like you don't see the impact of your

(00:02):
decisions right away.

Harv Nagra (00:03):
Yeah.

Galen Low (00:04):
but like PMs are like classically kinda like, in the
middle.
they get handed decisions, interms of like policy or software
or process or billing rates orservice offerings.
and like the culture is to justplay ball, right?
Play ball and be a champion forthe changes to their teams.
you know, I, I, I did not makethe decision.
I, need to Sort of implement thedecision,

Harv Nagra (00:25):
Yeah.

Galen Low (00:26):
I need to get my teams on board with this.
And those decisions were noteasy to make, you know at the
leadership level, it's not atthe operator level, they're not
easy decisions.
but also on the flip side, Iguess I would say like as an
operator, as a leader in anagency, like we need to take the
time to listen as well.

Harv Nagra (00:42):
Thanks for listening to The Handbook, the agency
operations podcast.
This podcast is brought to youby Scoro.
How is a platform like Scorodifferent from project
management tools like Asana,ClickUp, and Monday.
com?
Those platforms can be usefulproject management tools, but
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(01:02):
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report on your business.
That's the difference between aPM tool and a PSA, Professional
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I think of it like an operatingsystem for your agency that

(01:23):
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Sign up for a free trial atScoro.com.
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(01:46):
Now let's get to the episode.
Hi all.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Ops leaders, question for you tothink about.
How do the decisions that youmake or your blind spots impact
your delivery team?
I mean, most of us didn't startour careers as operations
directors.
We made our way up through theranks, wore multiple hats, maybe

(02:06):
even did stints as projectmanagers.
So we felt the pains, and I'msure it had frustrations with
the agencies we've worked at,being on the receiving end of
messy processes, unclearownership, tool sprawl, poor
onboarding, all of it.
But now we're the decisionmakers.
And while we're trying to do ourbest, we might now have our own

(02:26):
blinders on.
Today, we're gonna help you takethose off.
And it's a special episode, ourfirst ever podcast exchange,
part one here on The Handbookand part two over on the DPM
podcast.
Two Perspectives, same goal,building agency environments
where delivery teams canactually thrive.

(02:49):
So for today's episode, I wantedto bring on someone who lives
and breathes the project managerand delivery experience, someone
who can speak to the real impactof operational decisions from
the other side of the table.
That person is Galen Lowe,co-founder of the Digital
Project Manager, a globalcommunity and learning platform
that's helped thousands ofdigital PMs level up their

(03:10):
skills, lead smoother projectsand survive the chaos of agency
life.
He's also the host of the DPMpodcast, where he interviews
practitioners from across thedigital delivery world.
I'm really excited about thisconversation.
Let's get into it.
Galen, welcome to the podcast.
It's a pleasure to have you heretoday.

Galen Low (03:30):
Oh, thanks for having me on the show.

Harv Nagra (03:31):
We're gonna start of course, with talking about the
fact that we both grew up inVancouver, didn't we?
We worked on the same street inGastown or something like that.

Galen Low (03:39):
That's right.

Harv Nagra (03:39):
Yeah.
V ery, very funny.
Of course, I live in London, inthe uk so I get very excited
when I talk to a fellowCanadian.
I'm like, yes.

Galen Low (03:46):
I'm excited,

Harv Nagra (03:47):
yeah.
Amazing.
Well, thank you very much.
so Galen in a past life, I don'tget to talk about this very much
on this podcast, being focusedon operations, but I used to be
a digital producer.
and then I moved into the roleof digital director.
So I've been in that deliveryseat.
Dealt with my share ofchallenges, both internal
challenges, operationalchallenges, as well as clients

(04:07):
from hell and all that kind ofstuff.
But let's see what you'rehearing on the ground today.
Like what are some of the thingsthat PMs are struggling with
right now that aren't just aboutprojects, and maybe point to
deeper issues with the way theagency runs.
So I'm hoping what we can getout of this today is for all the
operations leaders, listening,giving them some kind of clues

(04:28):
and hints as to what their teamsmight be feeling, so that
they're sensitive to that.

Galen Low (04:33):
Yeah, great question.
I have to say from my community,here's, here's the, the three
things I'm hearing back fromthem.
One, a lot of their teams are,experiencing layoffs.
so you know, they've survivedlayoffs.
But their team, makeup haschanged and Morale's a bit low.

Harv Nagra (04:46):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (04:46):
economy is tough, I get it right.
Agencies are having to makereally tough decisions right
now.
There's a lot of uncertainty.

Harv Nagra (04:52):
Yeah.

Galen Low (04:52):
trying to do more with less.
and on the delivery side ofthings, those project managers
are trying to maintain.
The quality, the standards, therelationships they hold
internally and externally.
but really the team is, ishurting actually.
You know, they're trying to puton a brave face.
But, there's a lot of teams outthere right now that are trying
to do more with less,

Harv Nagra (05:10):
Yeah.

Galen Low (05:11):
the pressure, and, wondering if this is permanent
or wondering if this istemporary and if temporary, how
long is it gonna last?
So

Harv Nagra (05:17):
Yeah.

Galen Low (05:18):
in everyone's

Harv Nagra (05:18):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (05:19):
I think in tandem with that, we're seeing a little
more role blending and like roleexpansion.
So in other words, I have someproject managers who are being
asked to, upskill on digitalstrategy or upskill on business
requirements gathering orupskill on, marketing a little
bit.
and in some ways I think it'sjust natural blend.
but also I think, the teams are.
There's a lot of pressure onthese teams,

Harv Nagra (05:38):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (05:39):
It's not like these big jobs, these big contracts
aren't flowing through.
A lot of the retainers aren'tbeing renewed, so there's little
projects, and then

Harv Nagra (05:47):
Yeah.

Galen Low (05:47):
doesn't look like they can fill whatever, 40 hours
a week.
Doing projects.
I mean, they probably could.
but the idea is, okay, wellmaybe you can do a bit more.
so I've been seeing that alittle bit.
It's good and bad, right?
And

Harv Nagra (05:58):
Yeah.

Galen Low (05:58):
hand, there's a lot of opportunity.
you know, I, I, I creeped yourprofessional journey.
And I was like, there could begood things that come from role
blending and role

Harv Nagra (06:05):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (06:06):
That could be your next promotion eventually.
but right now I think people arelike, again, is this permanent
or is this temporary?
If it's temporary, how long isit gonna last?

Harv Nagra (06:13):
Yeah.

Galen Low (06:14):
and then the last thing I'd say is just, you know,
the teams, especially projectmanagers, we're being asked to
take a position on ai, as sortof process and team leads.
You know, we are, not alwaysgetting clear answers from the
top because every organization,every agency is trying to figure
it out.
What is our governance policy?
What are our, you know,

Harv Nagra (06:33):
Yeah.

Galen Low (06:34):
we approaching AI tools on, on the delivery side?
It's almost like, why aren't youusing ai?
in some cases, every team memberis using their own AI tool to do
a thing.
And it's hard to be that personwho says, okay, well yes, let's
start baking this into ourprocess and I need to make time
to like learn how to do this,but also let me get, approval
from, top brass from theleadership team to make sure I'm
doing the right thing.

(06:54):
Meanwhile, everyone's just doingeverything and you're like, is
client data going into thesetools?
I need to draw some lines rightnow.

Harv Nagra (07:00):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (07:00):
on the other side of things, there's a lot of project
managers who are like.
My style is very human

Harv Nagra (07:05):
Yeah.

Galen Low (07:05):
I, I don't really, I don't really want to adopt ai.
I don't wanna be that personthat says AI is good.
'cause I'm not sure yet.

Harv Nagra (07:11):
Yeah.

Galen Low (07:11):
sure if that puts me out of a job, and I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.

Harv Nagra (07:15):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (07:15):
a lot of uncertainty right now.

Harv Nagra (07:18):
Really, really interesting points there, Galen.
I, I feel like each of thosecould turn into episode in
themselves, but I just wanted toreflect back on a couple of
things.
The first thing is you broughtup the idea of layoffs and the
morale impact is such a seriousthing, right?
From the business point of view.
it, it's a tough decision thatoften needs to be had, otherwise
you wouldn't go through with it,right?
But, the impact it has on yourremaining team is so serious.

(07:42):
So that's really something youhave to consider.
And there's no easy fix to that.
I don't think it's just aboutreassuring the people that are
there and making sure you'redoing the things, that you need
to, to rebuild that kind ofsense of trust and, making it
clear that you're doing thethings that you need to be doing
to make sure that business iscoming in and there's a

(08:03):
sustainable amount of work,right.
So, so that's one thing.
the role blending thing is, isinteresting.
I think if there's, in my pointof view, if it's like very
closely related to your coreskillset, then I think that's a
great thing.
You're learning and expandingyour immediate skills.
I, I think I have an issue with,role blending when it's coming
from the opposite end whereyou're just simply not hiring

(08:25):
the roles that you need andtherefore everyone has two
different jobs.
They're like part-time socialmedia manager and part-time
whatever.
And so it's like this jugglingof responsibilities that really
shouldn't be in your kind ofwheelhouse.
I, I think that becomes very,very stressful.

Galen Low (08:42):
Mm-hmm.

Harv Nagra (08:42):
so one thing I've, I, I've experienced, and I kind
of alluding to it there, is thatthe people closest to the work
usually know something's brokenin an organization before
leadership does.
I've, I've been in thatsituation before.
I'm sure you have as well.
but yeah, thoughts on that?
and what are some clues thatteams tend to pick up on that
things are a bit busted?

Galen Low (09:03):
Yeah, no, that's an interesting one.
honestly, like I've, I've beenin both seats, so I've been on
the ground, just seeing thingslike happen right in front of
me.
and that's a benefit, right?
You see it.
Creating chaos and you see it,hurt people in some cases or at
least create confusion,

Harv Nagra (09:17):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (09:17):
higher up.
Like you don't see the impact ofyour decisions right away.

Harv Nagra (09:21):
Yeah.

Galen Low (09:22):
but like PMs are like classically kinda like, in the
middle.
they get handed decisions, interms of like policy or software
or process or billing rates orservice offerings.
and like the culture is to justplay ball, right?
Play ball and be a champion forthe changes to their teams.
I have this note here.
I'm like, grin and bear itshould be tattooed on every
agency PM's forehead becausethat's the mission,

Harv Nagra (09:43):
Yeah.

Galen Low (09:43):
okay, you know, I, I, I did not make the decision.
I, need to Sort of implement thedecision,

Harv Nagra (09:50):
Yeah.

Galen Low (09:51):
I need to get my teams on board with this.
and, what you want to be able todo, as a pm right?
Is champion both ways, right?
We're stuck in the middle.
We're like, okay, if thingsaren't working

Harv Nagra (10:01):
Mm.

Galen Low (10:01):
if we start noticing, a, a dip in efficiency or
confusion or, dips in moralewith our team, I think the best
thing we can do actually is.
Probably to be vocal.
To be vocal but like solutionsoriented.
'cause

Harv Nagra (10:14):
Yeah.

Galen Low (10:14):
easy to point at a whole, right?
And those decisions were noteasy to make, you know at the
leadership level, it's not atthe operator level, it's,
they're not easy decisions.
but also on the flip side, Iguess I would say like as an
operator, as a leader in anagency, like we need to take the
time to listen as well.

Harv Nagra (10:30):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (10:30):
it's not easy to hear.
about problems

Harv Nagra (10:34):
Yeah.

Galen Low (10:34):
that you've been planning for months, or that
thing that's really integral toyour business and your business
strategy.
but, know, take it as feedbackthat is all like feedback, from
your decisions being battletested in the wild.

Harv Nagra (10:46):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (10:46):
I'm, I'm a huge, proponent of the fact that like,
getting data, like real datacoming back to you after making
a decision or after rollingsomething out, it's way better
than not hearing about it.
You know, you, you asked mesome, some sort of symptoms.
I, I do think if people aren'tcoming to you, but you're like,
gut is telling you thatsomething's just not quite
right.

Harv Nagra (11:03):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (11:04):
I'm sure if you've built the culture of trust and
you can sit down with projectmanagers or team leads
one-on-one just to be like, Hey,listen, like let's grab a
coffee.
Talk to me about this thing.
like is it going well?
I think there is definitelyagency culture where we're just
supposed to grin and bear it.

Harv Nagra (11:19):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (11:20):
and if you want feedback on it or if you sense
that it might not be doing thething that you want it to do,
I'm sure there's a lot of peopleon the ground who will, who will
wanna tell you in the rightcontext, you

Harv Nagra (11:29):
Yeah.

Galen Low (11:29):
in a town hall, not in a team meeting, not in, any
kind of pressurized environmentand in a room full of the the
leadership team.
but yeah, get, get grassrootsand, and, and try and get a
sense of

Harv Nagra (11:39):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (11:40):
like I said, us PMs, we're noticing things like,
morale, efficiency, confusion.
Those are all the things thatfeed into chaos.

Harv Nagra (11:47):
Hmm.

Galen Low (11:47):
that slow down what we're normally used to doing.
those are the things that are,delaying, whatever, getting to
that payment milestone orcompleting that project that,
opens up the team to that nextthing, the next project.
So it's, it's a really importantflow.

Harv Nagra (12:00):
And I, I think, what you brought up there about
listening to the PMs, I, I thinkthat's such great feedback for,
for like the operators and, andagency leaders.
These are some of your mostprocess oriented, organized
people in your business.
So if you really want validfeedback on the way you've set
up processes or the way thingsare just creaking and stuff like

(12:20):
that.
These are people that are gonnatell you exactly what's wrong
and, and tell you after they'vetested all that stuff.
So I think that's really,really, important.
The whole thing about being theheroic project manager.
I've had to be one of those.
When you're, when you're in anorganization that's not very,
structured or not very mature,for someone that has that
project manager or operationsmindset, your, your nature is to

(12:44):
create structure, right?

Galen Low (12:45):
Mm-hmm.

Harv Nagra (12:46):
And, and I think I've had to do that where, where
it's just like the rest of theorganization is just operating
in this kind of very loose way.
And it's like, well, in ourteam, this is the way we're
gonna do it and this is the wayit needs to happen.
So I, I think that's great.
But on the other hand, it's notan ideal place for organization
where people are having to pickup the slack.
Due to the lack of kind ofstructure coming down from the

(13:07):
top.
I was wondering if you have anyother examples where you've seen
teams just making things workbecause the foundations weren't
really there.

Galen Low (13:14):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I, I like that word, heroicproject managers.

Harv Nagra (13:18):
Yeah.

Galen Low (13:18):
it's, it's funny because, in my community mostly
we're digital project managers.
We're working in digitalagencies, building digital
solutions like websites or,marketing campaigns and what
have you.
and I, I, we we can't be in thisculture of, speaking, speaking
up and having hardconversations, right?
Running towards toughconversations to make things
better.

Harv Nagra (13:36):
Yeah.

Galen Low (13:37):
but also in an agency situation, there's a lot of
pressure, on project managers,but also on the teams, right?
There's just pressure todeliver.
so, I have had teams that areputting in, 70, 80 hour weeks
like secretly.
Like not telling anybody,

Harv Nagra (13:53):
Wow.

Galen Low (13:53):
because they wanna make it look like, the
parameters of an agency right?
It's like they wanna look likethey're hitting their
utilization targets.
They want to look like they'rematching the sort of, resourcing
or capacity expectations.
they're trying to.
Sometimes punch above theirweight class.
Sometimes everybody is trying topunch above their weight class
thinking that somebody else inthe agency, is getting it done
faster, is

Harv Nagra (14:14):
Hmm.

Galen Low (14:15):
better, is able to take on more projects at once.
and so there's thatcompetitiveness.
So they're, sometimes we'rejust.
Smoothing it over by the fact,like in as individuals, not a
team culture.
It's not like

Harv Nagra (14:24):
Yeah.

Galen Low (14:24):
that says, Hey, listen, let's just put in extra
time.
Overtime is our game.
That's our culture.
Like, let's go.

Harv Nagra (14:29):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (14:30):
it's just that individuals sometimes, are
secretly getting work done,which as you can imagine, as an
operator, that's the worst thingthat could happen because then
all of your baseline, all ofyour benchmark of what is
expected, it stays the same andyou're like, I guess
everything's great.
But everyone's gaming the system

Harv Nagra (14:46):
Yeah.

Galen Low (14:46):
because they're like, well, that's how I look good.
That's how I get promoted.
That's how, and, and, and,

Harv Nagra (14:51):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (14:51):
there's all these things that are, are more
politically charged.
So, I've had, devs individuallyjust coding over the weekend
just to keep up because theirresourcing was, not realistic.
I've had project managers, theydo all their heads down work.
I don't know if you were likethis, but like.
Sometimes the frenzy of the jobis like, okay, you're expected
to be like on and available, onwhatever teams or slack, like
all the time during the day,

Harv Nagra (15:11):
Hmm.

Galen Low (15:12):
which means if you had to do a proposal or a change
request or your status reports,that's all happening in the
evening,

Harv Nagra (15:17):
Yeah.

Galen Low (15:18):
you're like, okay, I'll just stack that later.
I, I don't, I can't even get ingear to do this work during the
day because I'm answeringquestions.

Harv Nagra (15:24):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (15:25):
to clients and, and, and, And then the other, the
sort of example I have is,sometimes I, I've seen a lot of
agencies, they're like, yeah, weare.
our, our thing is agile.
Like we are all scrum all thetime.
That's all, that's what we do.
That's how we stay competitive.
We're fast, we're nimble, we'recollaborative,

Harv Nagra (15:42):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (15:43):
and like, okay, so it's like every project needs to
be, you know, this is the way wework.
This is the one way we work,

Harv Nagra (15:48):
Yeah.

Galen Low (15:48):
it to our clients.
And then the clients are like,yeah, we're not really set up
for Agile.
So then we have this likeinternal agile thing going on

Harv Nagra (15:55):
Hmm.

Galen Low (15:55):
that then gets like.
Distilled backup to the clientas just like regular, more
predictive,

Harv Nagra (16:01):
Yeah.

Galen Low (16:02):
waterfall style style projects.
'cause they're not set up forit.
So e effectively the teams aredoing both.
They're like doing all the, youknow, it's like our policy is to
like, yeah, do scrum, we do allof our sprint planning and we
have daily standouts and we doour sprint reviews with the
client.
But really it's kind of like,just like delivering based on a
milestone for this client that.
Fundamentally cannot make adecision in that

Harv Nagra (16:21):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (16:21):
then it's gonna end up with three weeks of something
getting approved.

Harv Nagra (16:24):
Yeah.

Galen Low (16:24):
not set up to be nimble.
They're not set up to be agile.
And so you have, like both gearswe're like trying to toe the
line, trying to deliver thebrand experience.

Harv Nagra (16:31):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (16:32):
and like I've had project managers on my teams
who've been like, Hey, listen,like.
This is not an agile project,permission to just switch it and
we'll make that decisiontogether because yeah, it's
probably a good selling pointfor some agencies to say, yeah,
listen, this is the way we work.
but it's not realistic if theclient is not set up that way.
so,

Harv Nagra (16:49):
Absolutely.

Galen Low (16:49):
those are some of those like insidious things
where you think everything'sworking, it looks like it's
working on the surface, andyou're like, this

Harv Nagra (16:53):
Hmm

Galen Low (16:54):
Metrics are good, right?
Utilization is good, resourcingis good.
but sometimes it's just, it'sall happening.
Without you knowing,

Harv Nagra (17:02):
Yeah.

Galen Low (17:02):
or where there is, exceptions being made, people
not quite gaming the system, butkind of

Harv Nagra (17:09):
Her feeling.
Pressured.
Exactly.
You know what I love about thisrole of project manager and ops,
is I find a lot of parallelsyour responsibilities might be
different.
One is project oriented and oneis organization oriented, but
like that the kind of incomingbarrage of support and answering
things and like.
You're, you're just constantlyfacing it, right?

(17:30):
So like you're saying, a lot ofthe kind of the stuff that you
really need to focus on and theplanning can end up getting
shoved aside because your workhours end up being like very
reactive.
So, you, you have to have a lotof connect control in place to
make sure that's not happening,but.
Some of the stuff that you weresaying about kind of people
gaming the system and stuff likethat there, there's multiple
things happening, right?
Like you're saying, agencies areunder pressure so that there,

(17:53):
there are layoffs happening andthen people don't always know
when to speak up.
I, I remember when I was one,one of my roles in Vancouver.
I was quite young and early inmy career and it was like a
boutique agency of fourindividuals, four of us.
So I just thought like.
I need to deliver.
Like we've got projects all overthe world.

(18:13):
I'm the project manager.
I'm the only project manager.
So the fact that I have to callpeople in Poland and Japan and
like Shanghai, like, okay,that's in the middle of the
night, so I just need to make ithappen.
And I was like, literally.
Killing myself for this role.
And I, it, it was, it felt likesomething we needed to do, but
my, my bosses, they, they actedshocked when they found out,
first of all.

(18:34):
but, I, I, I think there's justsomething there that you, you
have to be careful of and, andkeep an eye on your team even if
they're not speaking up.
There's the, a bit of theimposter thing can come up
feeling like you really need toprove yourself.
and also maybe not recognizingthat this is an organizational
issue and.
if you need the resource, youneed the resource and people
need to know.

Galen Low (18:53):
Yeah.
No, that's huge.
I

Harv Nagra (18:54):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (18:55):
The, like, trying, trying to determine which is a,
is it me or is it theorganization?
Is it a bit of both?
I think on both sides.
I think it's a really importantlens to put on it because yeah,
that imposter syndrome and

Harv Nagra (19:06):
Yeah.

Galen Low (19:06):
zone thing you mentioned.
Yeah, I've been there.

Harv Nagra (19:08):
Yeah.

Galen Low (19:08):
it is real.
You're like kinda like holdingup the roof with like, you know,
nothing else.

Harv Nagra (19:12):
Yeah.

Galen Low (19:12):
I guess this is the job.
And you're like, but it feelsreally, really hard.
And like, I wish I could raisemy hand without shooting myself
in the

Harv Nagra (19:19):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (19:20):
and it's, one of those things, but like, it's,
it's the culture, right?
Like

Harv Nagra (19:23):
Hmm.

Galen Low (19:24):
I've been, I've worked in agencies where like.
Yeah, you raise your hand, youget it shot off,

Harv Nagra (19:28):
Yeah.

Galen Low (19:28):
like great, you're not 80, 90% utilized like, and
you're raising your hand sayingthere's problems.
I think it's the problem is you,

Harv Nagra (19:34):
Mm.

Galen Low (19:35):
called out shamed, like in public, in front of the
agency, you know,

Harv Nagra (19:39):
Yeah.

Galen Low (19:39):
a reputation of, somebody who's just, just always
a squeaky wheel, right?
Like there is such thing asculture that will never let you
see.
How your business is operatingbecause people are shooting down
the people who are raising theirhands.
and again, for me it's data,right?
Like listen, gather the data.
You don't have to act on all ofit.

(19:59):
Not all of it's going to be,like, true for everybody or
something that you need to takeaction on.
But if you don't know what'shappening and we're not talking
to some of these, individuals,that's the only way to find out.
You don't see it on the surface,you don't see it in the data.
You have to go and get that likequalitative data from folks.

Harv Nagra (20:15):
Absolutely.
we're, we're gonna talk abouttooling in a moment, there was
something that you said thereabout utilization that kind of
struck a chord and a questionlike that came up.
And I don't know if I ever hada.
Great answer to this is thatwhen setting utilization targets
for project manager roles, therewas always kind of a disparity

(20:37):
between expectations and thereality.
And I think the re the, thereason was.
project managers or producers,they end up jumping across so
much stuff all day that itbecomes, first of all, very
challenging to track your timeaccurately, right?
Because it's just like you're,you're, you're, you're answering
like 10 different slack messagesevery, every 10 minutes.

(20:57):
So it's like, well, what, whatdo I log that on?
You're guessing.
but also I think some of theproducers that have worked for
me is like, they don't feelthere's this kind of guilt
associated with logging time.
On a task when you're onlysporadically doing certain
things or you're answering likea single message.

(21:18):
I don't even know what myquestion is, Galen there, but
it's just like, have you comeacross that before?
I, I guess And is there, isthere any kind of brilliant
advice you have in how to managethat?
'cause.
Yeah, there's a lot of time thatends up getting logged on kind
of admin, because people don'tknow what to log that on.

Galen Low (21:37):
Yeah, honestly I see it a lot.
and for me it boils down tothis.
It's like, and this is not justfor project managers, this is
anyone.

Harv Nagra (21:43):
Yeah,

Galen Low (21:44):
Specifically agency.
It's like, do you understand thevalue of the work that you're
doing?

Harv Nagra (21:49):
right.

Galen Low (21:49):
many, minutes you spent doing the thing, but the
value, right?
So like it might take me 15minutes to just, tap, tap, tap,
put together a status report,

Harv Nagra (21:58):
Yeah.

Galen Low (21:58):
together, send it off to a client.
Does that mean it's notvaluable?
No, actually they're paying us.
To know how their project isgoing to know that it's going
smoothly for someone to be doingthe risk management to say, Hey,
listen, like, just heads up,like, that thing that you're
supposed to approve, like thatdeadline's coming up on
Thursday.

Harv Nagra (22:13):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (22:14):
the way, we're ahead of schedule on this, but like,
there's like a, there's a bigchunk we're getting into like
the meaty middle of the project,right?
Like that is valuable.

Harv Nagra (22:22):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (22:22):
it's not 15 minutes worth of value.

Harv Nagra (22:24):
Yeah.

Galen Low (22:25):
thing is like I was never taught how.
To think about tracking my time.
I was just told you work thismany hours per week and of those
hours, like X percent should bebillable.
so when you track your time, tryand make that happen.
and then, so I'd be like, okay,well, like I guess I should like
make it add up.
So I guess I'll like do morework now actually to like, make

(22:47):
it balanced so that the timethat I've put in.
Equals the like billable sort ofthing that I'm doing.
and as I got further in mycareer, and I don't know if
every operator is gonna agreewith this,

Harv Nagra (22:57):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (22:57):
eventually it was like, okay.
What was the value that I didfor this project?
I don't need to count everyemail that I

Harv Nagra (23:03):
Mm.

Galen Low (23:04):
What did I do?
How much, like what percentageof my day did I spend delivering
value for this project

Harv Nagra (23:09):
Yeah.

Galen Low (23:09):
manager?
So first I had to understandwhat my value was

Harv Nagra (23:12):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (23:12):
Yeah.
Keeping things on, on, on therails, but like not just herding
cats.
It's like communication isorchestration.
It's translation.
It's making sure that thingshappen.
So that we can bill, so that wecan get paid like so that the
client can like continue theirdigital transformation or like
launch that campaign likethey're gonna make money too.
The ROI on what we do.
project managers or anyone elsein an agency, it's a thing.

Harv Nagra (23:34):
Yeah.

Galen Low (23:35):
just how fast you can type if you're a developer,
right?
And it's like, and, and, andfrankly, utilization is a
terrible measure of if you are afast at coding

Harv Nagra (23:42):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (23:42):
fast at doing status reports or if you're fast at
wire framing, you have noincentive to get it done quicker
because then you're utilizationdrops.
So you're like, oh, great.
but then I realized, okay.
If, if there was a way

Harv Nagra (23:54):
Hmm.

Galen Low (23:54):
for, agencies specifically, especially if
you're like time and materials,right?
like to have some kind ofparameters or training around
time tracking, not like, oh,bill, what you want, bill, what
you think you're worth.
I think that's probably

Harv Nagra (24:06):
Yeah.

Galen Low (24:07):
know, feasible, viable,

Harv Nagra (24:10):
Hmm.

Galen Low (24:10):
but maybe even just some guidelines, right?
like, it's not the 15 minutesthat most agencies care about.
It's just about are you, are youservicing this client in a
meaningful way?
And yeah, like I don't want youto put like 200 time entries in
for like four days of work.

Harv Nagra (24:28):
Yeah.

Galen Low (24:28):
in quarter hour increments.
Like, I don't, I don'tnecessarily want that.
I, I haven't seen an agency yetthat like goes great, let's
like.
Gather all the time that peoplesend spending emails, like those
quarter hour things that aredescribed as email

Harv Nagra (24:41):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (24:41):
let's like create a dashboard about like how long we
spend on, I've never seen anagency do that.
They don't care.
They care about the biggerservice offerings.
the bigger strokes.
How, how, how much does it takeus to deliver, a website on this
CMS versus that CMS.

Harv Nagra (24:56):
Hmm.

Galen Low (24:56):
I think there's this like limited understanding of
what.
What is done with time trackingdata What is done with
utilization.
And I think there's thisdisconnect between how a
business operates, how an agencyoperates in particular, and like
what people see as Overwatch.
They're like you just wanna makesure I'm doing work, which is
not always true.

Harv Nagra (25:15):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (25:15):
but it's not always true.
Sometimes it's about.
Broader business data.
Sometimes it's aboutproductization, sometimes it's
about, efficiency gains, after aprocess was rolled out.
Like there's a lot to it and wedon't tell anybody.
We just say track your time, gofor it here's, here's the tool.
Track your time.
See you later.
I.

Harv Nagra (25:32):
Well, if you want compliance, I think it's super
important for people tounderstand what that is serving
and what purpose, you know, whatthey're contributing to by
tracking that.
so we're, we're, we're gonnacontinue on tooling I, I guess
it's just my, my question iswhat does it look like from a
team side when the tool set upis making the delivery team's
job harder?
Does anything come to mind sothat we can catch these red

(25:55):
flags?

Galen Low (25:56):
this is, it's a tough one.
Okay.
This is like when a toolchanges, you're talking change
management, you know no matterwhat tool it is.
and fundamentally it is thissort of balance between like.
The cognitive load of likenavigating a new tool that maybe
you got like an hour's trainingwith versus like the muscle
memory, right?
Like so, this is a bit adjacent,but like, we had clients in,

(26:18):
the, the, the airline business,right?
and they use a tool, I believeit's called Saber.
Don't quote me on that, but it'slike, it's basically DOS for
booking agents, right?
You type into a command line

Harv Nagra (26:28):
Okay.

Galen Low (26:29):
gotten so fast at that.
They're like, you changed thattool.
I quit.
En mass,

Harv Nagra (26:33):
Okay.

Galen Low (26:34):
they would revolt against it because they're so
efficient with that tool.
Now, we don't always get thatchoice at an agency.
I've been at more than two orhalf a dozen agencies where
we've flipped a tool overnightand it wasn't always
communicated why, and we weren'ttrained on it.
Like, we flipped from, whatever,we were using a, a project
management tool.
And then overnight we flipped toBasecamp and it was like, cool,
figure it out.

(26:54):
guess what?
As I'm figuring it out, like I'mnot sitting down with my tea,
like at midnight figuring outBasecamp.
A, I need a real use case toactually like plug into,

Harv Nagra (27:03):
Yeah.

Galen Low (27:04):
B we're just getting work done, right?
So like we are immediately lessefficient.
'cause there's always, questionscome up, they're like, Hey, how
should I do this thing?
And there might

Harv Nagra (27:15):
Yeah.

Galen Low (27:15):
an answer, but I think when you start hearing
that there's these questions,right?
Like it's not just.
People necessarily figuring itout.
It might just be that it couldhave been more efficient maybe
Mm-hmm.
to outline some of these,scenarios and, and, and take
that data back.
'cause you can apply that to anytool rollout.
but you know, it doesn't alwayslook like things are on fire.
Everyone's like, okay,

Harv Nagra (27:35):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (27:35):
great.
We rolled out, you know, new,uh, time tracking tool.
Everyone's using it like.
job done.
but you know, thinking aboutlike just the cognitive load
that the team is undergoing tolike learn it to

Harv Nagra (27:47):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (27:48):
Just even just a right?
Even like, what does this buttondo?
This

Harv Nagra (27:51):
Yeah.

Galen Low (27:51):
You're talking about like fragments of seconds, but
it's adding up.
And I think it, there's, there'sa certain way to do it right.
I don't, claim to know exactlyhow it can work well for all
agencies.
But there's something inbetween, the memos.
It's like, Hey, it's January1st, by the way, and like in Q2,
we're gonna change your timetracking tool.
Oh, hey, it's the end of Q1.

(28:12):
Like, we're gonna change yourtime tracking tool.
Hey, we're gonna change yourtime tracking tool.
It's like the message is thesame all the way through, and
then suddenly the new timetracking tool.
'cause like how that, how youexperience that change is okay,
something's coming.
Something's

Harv Nagra (28:23):
Yeah.

Galen Low (28:23):
Something's coming.
Oh, it's here.
And then

Harv Nagra (28:26):
Yeah.
Now, uh,

Galen Low (28:27):
didn't prepare anybody.
Nobody was

Harv Nagra (28:28):
no.

Galen Low (28:29):
anything about it.
No one was getting trained, etcetera.
there's that, versus, justflipping the switch overnight,
like, not good either.
I think people just need tounderstand and feel comfortable
with how they're going to dotheir job in a new tool.
that comfort level alone willmake their learning process
faster.
'cause they feel supported, theyfeel like they don't have to do
it under pressure.
They're not like, like, I'vebeen sweating bullets trying to
like, get a, get a thing out.

(28:50):
in a new tool.
And I'm like, oh gosh, okay.
I got like, I just need to smashthrough this.
It's very stressful.
I'm just gonna click everybutton.
and maybe it'll work, maybe itwon't,

Harv Nagra (28:58):
Yeah.

Galen Low (28:58):
I need to deliver this thing.
Like, that's not a great,experience for anyone on your
team.
And it's probably, interrupting,it's being disruptive to your
business.

Harv Nagra (29:06):
Absolutely.
I, I think that's so, so valid.
I, I think it's a sign of amature business to have a
systematic approach to rollingsomething out and having a point
of view about how things aredone.
Not to say that things shouldn'tbe flexible, they absolutely
should.
But just throwing something at,a team, like you're saying, the
stress.
And kind of disruption and chaosthat causes is not worth it.

(29:29):
And if you want your change tofail, that is exactly how you
should do it.
So you've invested loads ofmoney on this tool, and now you
want no one to be happy with itand using it and, and make that
process as difficult as possiblefor them and for yourself.
That's how you should do it.
Otherwise, be more measured.
Make a planned approach torolling it out.
Keep people in the loop.

Galen Low (29:49):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And you're right, like noteverything's gonna be figured
out right away.

Harv Nagra (29:52):
Hmm.

Galen Low (29:53):
but I do think that, yeah, having.
Having some parameters of howthings are are being used.
I've totally seen that.
We've, we've adopted a tool.
Everyone like went and like,went on YouTube to like, figure
out how to use it.

Harv Nagra (30:04):
Yeah.

Galen Low (30:05):
doing something different.
'cause they were just watching adifferent video or it wasn't,
tailored to the way that thatorganization was working.
Yeah.
That's a quick way to to, tomake a muddy mess.

Harv Nagra (30:14):
Yeah, exactly.
so let's switch gears a littlebit.
I wanted to talk about kind offreelancers and flexible teams
and the way people kind of scaleup.
By, by bringing in extrasupport.
but of course that only workswell when people are onboarded.
well, and you've got thoseprocesses down.
Can you give us any advice whenyou've got kind of project
managers coming in, freelancersand, and, and whatnot, how you

(30:37):
can make sure that this is,flawless in terms of that, that
kind of experience and thathandoff.

Galen Low (30:43):
I love that question because, we're seeing a lot more
freelance, positions or, orroles or opportunities open up a
lot more professionals in theagency world going freelance.
here's the thing about freelancea, a good freelancer, in my
opinion, I.
Knows they have to hit theground running,

Harv Nagra (30:59):
Yeah.

Galen Low (30:59):
how to get themselves up to speed, doesn't really want
to get onboarded like an

Harv Nagra (31:04):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (31:05):
they don't want it.
they're like, tell me how you dothings, where things are at, who
my team is, and make thisinformation available to me.
and I, I see some, I don't knowif they're mistakes, but I've
seen some agencies where theykind of like, they're like,
cool, like we're gonna like.
Eat two days of their time, youknow, the cost of, of that time
to, sit them down with like teamleads and like get them up to

(31:25):
speed with where things are at,and it'll be very human, which
is great.
It's very noble, but it's notalways the best way.
First of all, I.
People are, you know, agencyland, right?
They're never available at thesame time, to your point,
different time zones,

Harv Nagra (31:37):
Yeah.

Galen Low (31:38):
what it's gonna be like someone in Poland's gonna
like be sitting there in theirevening to like onboard a
freelance PM or otherwise, thatstate side.
Like it's, it's, it that's gonnacreate friction in and of
itself.
It, it might be a nice idea, butI would say that like invest
time in some really good, reallypunchy, lightweight, Not even
documentation.

(31:58):
So

Harv Nagra (31:58):
Yeah.

Galen Low (31:59):
for example, like we, we love a good scavenger hunt
checklist.
It's kind of like, we call itlike a two-way onboarding
checklist.
It's kind of like, cool, thatperson who's like responsible
for what you're doing has sometasks and you have some tasks as
well.

Harv Nagra (32:10):
Hmm.

Galen Low (32:11):
go to this drive, read this document, go here.
Here's how you're gonna getyourself up to speed.
Take it off when you're done.

Harv Nagra (32:17):
Yeah.

Galen Low (32:17):
and it's kinda like the self-serve like.
We were organized enough to belike, cool, here are the
documents that you probably needto read.
here's the priority.
and then other than that, if youhave access, then get in there
and you have the stuff to referto

Harv Nagra (32:29):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (32:29):
it's not all gonna make sense on day one, right?

Harv Nagra (32:31):
Yeah.

Galen Low (32:32):
be like, cool, who's the client?
What's the industry?
And then when you go back andread that other thing, you're
like, okay, that makes sensenow.

Harv Nagra (32:37):
Yeah.

Galen Low (32:37):
it's like access to the right documentation.
think like the other thing,we've, I've seen some agencies
do, it's just kinda like thisteam working agreement.
it's like not super robust, butit's like, listen as a team,
because agency is like, we'rejust like, and projects in
general, there's not alwayspeople who work together all the
time.
It's like, great, we're smashinga bunch of people together.
There's no formal reportingstructure other than the fact

(32:59):
that we're on a project teamtogether.
here's how, here's the way wework.
You know, here's when each otherare available.
Here's like a bit of our workingstyle from each individual, our
values as a team.
The process that we kind of use.
Like, oh yeah, there's thisweekly thing, like a meeting
that we do, right?
Like that's a great document foronboarding a freelancer.
'cause you're like,

Harv Nagra (33:17):
Yeah.

Galen Low (33:17):
I understand how this team works.
I understand what they're usedto.
I'm not gonna commit it tomemory right now, but I get it.
I get the idea and I'm gonnakeep revisiting it and
revisiting it.
I'm gonna use it to haveconversations with the team to
be like, Hey, like it says herethat, you like to receive
feedback right away, even ifit's brutal.
Like, is that okay?
Right.
Like, because, because I can dothat.

Harv Nagra (33:36):
Yeah.

Galen Low (33:36):
and so these like, it's like.
A certain level ofdocumentation.
I think when people hear theword documentation, they think
like there might be a manual,you

Harv Nagra (33:43):
Hmm.

Galen Low (33:44):
thick of a, thick as a phone book.

Harv Nagra (33:45):
Yeah.

Galen Low (33:46):
that's the worst actually.
Nobody reads that.

Harv Nagra (33:48):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (33:49):
but good asynchronous systems.
I also have, there's some teamsthat are very remote first, and,
and, and basically they don'thave any private Slack messages,
right?
No dms

Harv Nagra (33:58):
Okay.

Galen Low (33:59):
because that's where information transfer happens.
And if you had to look back atit, it would be there.
You don't have

Harv Nagra (34:04):
Yeah.

Galen Low (34:04):
Hey, oh yeah, I had this side conversation with
so-and-so, so none of thatinformation is available.
But let me just tell you,there's like this sort of
information, this, Inaccessibleinformation,

Harv Nagra (34:13):
Yeah.

Galen Low (34:13):
and then to the point where they're also, using AI
note takers and meeting minutesalways get posted.
So again, that time zone thingtoo, right?
Sometimes people can join, youknow, they're in Europe the day,
or maybe they're ahead of it,but they still have to catch up
on the end of the day.
State side, they're like, oh,great.
Okay.
There was three meetings.
I can see the conversation here.
I can get myself up to speedquickly.
Again, not committing it tomemory, but like, okay, I

(34:34):
understand what happened and ifI need to go back to it, it's
there.

Harv Nagra (34:36):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (34:36):
are good systems.
for freelancers becausefreelancers, again, coming back
to my original point, for me, agood freelancer knows they have
to hit the ground running fast

Harv Nagra (34:44):
Yeah.

Galen Low (34:45):
knows how to get themselves up to speed.
they don't necessarily wanna sitdown and get talked at for like
seven hours.
they just like, give me themission briefing and access to
the right stuff and let cook

Harv Nagra (34:54):
Absolutely.
And they're expensive as well,so you want to get them working
as quickly as possible.
I, I like the idea that youbrought up of just kind of
self-directed resources, firstof all, so they're not relying
on other people.
But for me it was like newstarters.
They tended to have like a oneweek onboarding.
Freelancers on the other handhad something like.
Two to four hours really.

(35:15):
And it was three things.
First was like, this is, slack.
Of course you've used Slackbefore, but this is what our
project channels look like.
This is what our pitch channelslook like.
And then number two was, how weuse our file management
platform.
It was Dropbox for business.
So this is how stuff isstructured and this is where you
can find it.
And number three was, we usedScoro.
So it was like.

(35:36):
This is where you track yourtime and how to do that, and
this is how to check yourschedule.
So that, those were the keythings.
It was like after that you'reready to be briefed on a project

Galen Low (35:45):
Those

Harv Nagra (35:45):
right?
Yeah.

Galen Low (35:46):
right, be able to talk to people, be able to
access documents, know how tosort of track your time and get
paid.

Harv Nagra (35:51):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you want to know as quicklyas possible if the freelancer's
not gonna be a right fit aswell.
So the worst thing you can do isspend half a week onboarding
them and then it's like, oh man,they're not creative enough, or
they're not getting it right.
So that is the absolute worst.
Cool.
we've been talking a lot aboutwhat makes life hard for PMs,
but I wanted to ask you aboutwhat makes things smooth.

(36:12):
So what are the little signsthat, the delivery environment
is actually well supported.
So that might be, resources thatthe management or the ops
leaders have put in place.
To help things work well.
So those could be onboardingprocesses, structured
methodologies, clear,instructions on key platforms
and how things are done.
But I'll, I'll hand that over toyou.

Galen Low (36:33):
I

Harv Nagra (36:34):
I,

Galen Low (36:34):
honestly, that's an interesting question.
I, I, funny enough, here's mytake.
like when I see of maturity, I.
In an agency, especially aroundproject management,

Harv Nagra (36:46):
mm-hmm.

Galen Low (36:46):
like this like level of empowerment and trust knowing
that,'cause like, it's funny,like, you and I, we've both said
it, that like project managersare very process oriented and
we're very organized and, and,and that is all true, but
there's like this, stylistic.
Whatever modus operandi thatevery project manager has,

Harv Nagra (37:09):
Yeah.

Galen Low (37:10):
don't really want to be shoved into a box.
I actually think the worst, atleast supportive cultures are
like, Don't stray from anything.
'cause project managers are, youknow, we're also creative.

Harv Nagra (37:20):
Yeah.

Galen Low (37:21):
our own style.
we're very a lot of us are veryhuman oriented, right?
In other words, we bringpersonality into the role.
It's not all, the rules that thecomputer says.
So actually I want enoughstructure.

Harv Nagra (37:32):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (37:32):
enough structure and enough trust and like you tell
me as a project manager whatthose things are where I will
get fried.
If it's like, yeah, listen,like, like if you are
sequestering team resources thatare supposed to go to another
project but you project'sdelayed, yeah, you're gonna get
fried.
Great.
Got it.
Like, I know, like, now let mecook.

(37:52):
Like I know what to do.
I

Harv Nagra (37:54):
Yeah.

Galen Low (37:55):
where to go if it's like, yeah, listen, like.
We, we have a pretty decentmargin and like contingency
here, but this client like,yeah, if you get on the wrong
side and like you jeopardizethis relationship, you're fried.
And I'm like, great.
I know what to do now.
But like, you don't need tomicromanage me.
Just tell me that you're goingto be frank with me, that you
are going to, you're going totell me the truth no matter how

(38:18):
raw or how hard, it's going tosound.

Harv Nagra (38:20):
Yeah.

Galen Low (38:21):
but that you trust me and like I've seen, a sort of
like balance between like,accountability, and Overwatch
really.
I, I, again, I'll bring thatterm up.
someone I respect greatly, like,she is known, across her team
as, as like quintessential toughlove.
The best kind of tough love,right?
She's compassionate, she cares.
And if you give her an answerthat's not satisfactory, she

(38:42):
will grill you

Harv Nagra (38:43):
Okay.

Galen Low (38:44):
She doesn't want your project to be like, I think this
is gonna happen.
Maybe the client's gonna approvethis thing.
Like that ambiguity, she's gonnaslice through it.
She's like, ambiguity is risk,right?
If, if there's something thatyou can go and find the answer
to and get clarity on, go dothat, then talk to me, right?
Like I think that's a reallygood sort of model.
Rather than say, did you followthis five step checklist?
Because if you didn't, thenyou're probably not doing your

(39:05):
job.
Like I think that contains.
a project manager is able to do.
like I get that a business mightwant to scale.
You don't want everyone, doingeverything their own way.
but I don't think scale needs tomean like cutter,

Harv Nagra (39:18):
Super rigid.
Exactly.

Galen Low (39:20):
manageable at scale.

Harv Nagra (39:21):
Yeah.

Galen Low (39:22):
I think the power of the role in a lot of agency
roles, to be honest with you, isthis sort of stylistic,
personality driven behavior thatyields

Harv Nagra (39:31):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (39:32):
And you, look across your organization, you, you know
who they are, right?
You know, there's that oneperson that everyone kind of
likes but also is scared of.

Harv Nagra (39:38):
Hmm.

Galen Low (39:39):
That person great.
Like they are making thingshappen.
And no handbook is going

Harv Nagra (39:45):
Hmm.

Galen Low (39:46):
no pun intended, but no, no manual

Harv Nagra (39:49):
Yeah.

Galen Low (39:50):
recreate that person.
If you

Harv Nagra (39:51):
Hmm.

Galen Low (39:52):
copied, down everything that person did in a
day and then told someone elseto do it, it wouldn't work.

Harv Nagra (39:56):
Yeah.

Galen Low (39:57):
Like, and that's okay.
That's business.
We're, we're humans for now.
We're organizations built fromhumans

Harv Nagra (40:02):
Yeah.

Galen Low (40:02):
human stuff, together,

Harv Nagra (40:04):
Absolutely real life is messy and client requirements
and needs and demands are messyas well.
So I think the flexibility tomake smart decisions is
absolutely, absolutely key.
Really, really good examples.
So if someone in the ops orleadership role is listening to
this and they want to bettersupport their delivery teams,
does anything come to mind?

Galen Low (40:24):
okay, so, I'm, I'm coming back to something I said
earlier,

Harv Nagra (40:27):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (40:28):
your value as a project manager, I think, also
is true.
From the other side, is thatorganizations, like I, I get it,
right?
Like I've seen small agenciesgrow up, a lot of the time,
owner operator, entrepreneurstyle, got the business going,
right?

Harv Nagra (40:42):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (40:43):
person, was the delivery person, was the ops
person, was the finance person,

Harv Nagra (40:46):
Yeah.

Galen Low (40:47):
and then scaled.
And then that decision point isa really tough one.
Like, can I afford a full-timeemployee who's my first hire
going to be?
and, and, and you get to theproject manager and you're like.
I guess I have to, I hear this alot from operators, so like,
yeah, I just kinda, I needsomeone now to like, make sure
everything happens and like,keep things on time and on

(41:07):
schedule.
and you know, like, I don'tknow, I don't wanna pay too much
for this person.
You know, I see these roles,they're like, mid six figures.
and I, I can't afford that, butI need more than like a virtual
assistant, somewhere in themiddle.
And like, you know, like, and,and I guess, we, we will, we'll
just, Make them do the thing,and like it's fine.
And then tick the bucks.
I dunno, I find a lot of thetime that like undercuts the

(41:30):
value of a, the value you'regonna get from that project
manager.
B, your understanding of thevalue of the role.
Because in a lot of cases, folkslike yourself, you've come up
and you're like, okay, yeah,I've been the delivery person
sometimes and I didn't justcheck a box and make sure things
get done.
I was strategic, I was

Harv Nagra (41:47):
Yeah.

Galen Low (41:47):
client relationships.
I was being like, I, Iunderstood the politics, you
know, I was able to motivate myteam.
and I think, just appreciatingthat and, and taking a step back
and understanding that, likeeveryone gets trained to be
like, oh, projects that like,are delivered on time, on
budget, without any extra scope.
Like that is success.
Like not always.
And again, like if you have aprocess that you know is

(42:08):
reliable, that's not the onlything driving that success.
I would say the best thing that,an agency leadership team or an
ops team could do to bettersupport the delivery teams and
specifically their projectmanagers is I think just like
understanding that like, yeah,there's little everyday
decisions.
that are making a huge impact toculture.

(42:28):
They're making a huge impact toefficiency.
They're making a huge impact tolike having recurring client,
work, right?
The renewing that retainer, theprofitability aspect of things.
It's

Harv Nagra (42:39):
Yeah.

Galen Low (42:39):
these big swaths, it's not all the process.
There's like these tiny things,like hundreds of things,
thousands of things every daythat these individuals are doing
because they know what the goalis, Yeah.
right and I think really likeunderstanding that, and, and.
Frankly just like making time tolike listen and, and talk to
them a little bit.
I think, I find that it, it,some folks are resistant, in

(43:00):
agency culture to talk to theproject managers because they
either feel like they're gonnaget an earful or a spreadsheet
or something.
They're like, I don't want that.
or they're gonna like, hear allthe like, bad news and then
they're gonna feel overwhelmed.
both are probably true, but alsolike, what is that sort of like
interaction?
What is the right fidelity ofinteraction to be like.
How are things going?

(43:21):
You know what?
how can I support you better or,or what challenges are you
facing right now?
Not even the support thing,because honestly project
managers we're not good atraising our hands to ask for
help.

Harv Nagra (43:29):
Hmm.

Galen Low (43:29):
if you get them to describe some of the challenges,
you're gonna get line of sightinto what's going on on the
front lines.
I.
and what they're doing every dayto navigate that.
And coming back to your earlierquestion, sometimes they're,
like building a bridge outtasticks.
'cause there was a chasm thatnobody knew was there and nobody
talked about.
And that's how you're gonna findthose things out.
That's how you're gonnaunderstand the value of your

(43:50):
project management team also.
That's how you're gonnaunderstand where you need to
improve your business so thatthose gaps, have proper,
permanent, concrete bridges,not, makeshift things here and
there.
honestly, I think it all startswith just like.
taking the time to listen alittle bit, right?
Don't, like, don't invite anearful, you'll get it.
Uh, talking to those folksbecause they're seeing things

(44:10):
from a very unique middleground, where

Harv Nagra (44:13):
Yeah.

Galen Low (44:14):
above, they're looking at all the work
happening across departments.
They're understanding clientrelationships.
they're looking at how projectsfit together.
They're understanding howdifferent projects are,
delivered differently, even ifthe product is the same or the
service offering is the same.
they have a very uniqueperspective on how things are
running.
it's worth talking to them.
It's worth, holding themaccountable, but also giving'em
a little breathing room to, todo their thing and trusting that

(44:36):
they'll do their thing as longas the right parameters are set.

Harv Nagra (44:38):
Mm-hmm.
That is a really nice, spot toend our conversation on today as
well, Galen, because I'm reallyexcited to jump on your podcast.
We're recording it directlyafter this.
before we do that, I wanted totalk about the digital project
manager.
So I've been on loads ofwebinars with yourselves and on
your website, but could you tellour audience, just in case

(44:59):
they're not familiar with whoDPM is and what you guys do?

Galen Low (45:03):
Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
so the digital project manager,we are a knowledge sharing
community, helping projectpeople get skilled, get
confident, and get connected.
mostly so that we can amplifythe value of project management.
In a digital world, we're

Harv Nagra (45:15):
Mm-hmm.

Galen Low (45:15):
people and pixels and code, right?
Those projects that involvewebsites.
Or digital marketing campaigns,augmented reality video games.
it's easy sometimes with thespeed of technology for things
to come off the rails and bereally chaotic.
It takes, a certain quality ofperson, to, to lead those, to
lead through complexity, throughambiguity.
and so that's what we're allabout, you know?

(45:36):
Yes.
we do, we, we do monthlywebinars that are open to the
public.
and then we have our membershipoffering where.
We're doing a whole bunch ofexclusive stuff.
We're getting deep into tools.
we're, we're doing peermentorship.
We have, expert ask me anythings.
We've got a vibrant Slackcommunity, we've got mini
courses.
And then on the training side,with the DPM school, we've got
our certification program,mastering digital project

Harv Nagra (45:55):
Amazing.

Galen Low (45:56):
end-to-end and agency PM training it.
We designed it as our perfectonboarding.

Harv Nagra (46:00):
Wow.

Galen Low (46:01):
so the onboarding we wish we had when we were coming
into the agency game as projectmanagers.
you can check us [e-mail],or find me on LinkedIn and I'll,
I'll be happy to chat.

Harv Nagra (46:10):
Amazing.
Amazing.
So we'll put links to all ofthat and the resources I have to
say, It's called the DigitalProject Manager, but like ops
people, you're gonna love thisstuff as well.
So do go check it out.
There's loads of reallyinteresting webinars and stuff
like that that you'll, you'llget a lot of value out of.
So Galen, thank you so much forjoining and I'm really excited
to join your, your podcast.

(46:31):
so anyone listening, now is thetime.
Go find it and listen to parttwo of this conversation from
the operational perspective.

Galen Low (46:39):
Awesome.
Looking forward to it.
Thanks for

Harv Nagra (46:41):
Thank you so much.
That's where we'll leave theconversation for now.
As you've just heard, Galen'sgot a front row seat to what's
working and what's not in agencydelivery teams and how
operational decisions often showup in ways leadership doesn't
see right away.
If today's episode sparked somethoughts or helped you recognize
some blind spots, make sure tocheck out DPMs website.

(47:03):
Like I said, loads of resourcesthere that can help your
delivery teams and even youroperations team there.
The link is in the episodenotes, but we're not done yet.
Please go listen to part two ofthis conversation where we're.
Flipping the lens.
I'll be joining Galen over onthe DPM podcast to talk about
how agencies can buildoperational models that actually

(47:24):
support delivery, especially ina world of changing team
structures, rising expectations,and the pressure to scale
without breaking.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please share it with someone
that would enjoy it.
Join the conversation when yousee Galen or I posting about it
on LinkedIn, and of course signup for the handbook newsletter.
So you get a cheat sheet withthe key takeaways from every

(47:46):
episode in your inbox.
Go to scoro.com/podcast, scrolldown and you'll find the
newsletter sign up form.
That's it for me this week.
Thanks very much for joining us.