In this episode of The Hanged Woman Podcast, host Julienne Irons continues her powerful conversation with death midwife and advocate Kim Stravers. Together, they explore the intricate stages of the dying process, including the difference between curative and palliative care, and the emotional and spiritual shifts that happen as the body prepares to die.
Kim also shares how cultural and generational influences shape the way we approach death, and how we can make the process more compassionate, transparent, and intentional.
This conversation encourages listeners to face the realities of death with more clarity, planning, and heart — while reminding us that death, like birth, can be held with love.
✨ This is The Hanged Woman Podcast, where perspective is power.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey seekers.
Just a heads up.
This episode contains open and honest conversations about death, the dying process, and end of life care.
We discuss real life examples of death, including emotional and practical aspects of what happens when someone dies.
While these topics are shared with care and compassion, they may be sensitive or triggering for some listeners, please take care as you listen and feel free to pause or return when you're ready.
(00:24):
Hey, fellow seekers and welcome back to the Hanged Woman Podcast.
I'm your host, Julienne Irons, and this is part two of our conversation with Death Midwife and advocate Kim Stravers Now, if you haven't listened to part one, I highly encourage you to go listen to it because we explored Kim's path into the sacred work and why planning for our own death can be one of the most loving things we can do for ourselves and for the people we care about.
(00:47):
Now, in this episode, just be prepared because we're gonna go even deeper.
Kim is gonna gently walk us through what actually happens as the body prepares to die from the physical signs to the spiritual shifts.
This part of the conversation is about demystifying the process and offering insight into how we can show up for ourselves and for those we love with clarity, presence, and compassion.
(01:09):
So if you're ready, seekers, let's get into it.
Hey fellow seekers.
I'm taking a quick pause from the show to share something really close to my heart.
And honestly, the only reason you're even listening to this podcast right now, it's 3 of Cups.
(01:30):
My sisters and I created 3 of Cups an Irons Sisters Mission of Love as a space for healing, beauty, growth, and community because we believe life is meant to be full, rich, and abundant in every way.
We offer all kinds of ways to support you.
Like energy healing, heart-centered art, plant-based medicinals, even marketing that will help enhance your brand's presence in the world.
Because wherever you are in your journey, we wanna help you feel seen, supported, and empowered.
(01:53):
So if you're looking for something to help fill your cup in whatever way you need, come join us.
Follow us on Instagram @3ofCupsHealing, or explore all of our offerings at 3ofCupsHealing.com.
Because Seeker your cup deserves to be foam.
And now back to the episode.
(02:15):
Are you able to walk us through the stages of the dying process? Yeah, I can give you broad strokes for that.
They're gonna look different depending on what is going on with someone's particular body.
So someone who is experiencing terminal illness is gonna have a different experience than somebody who has say, dementia.
(02:39):
Which is gonna be different from somebody who has, say, heart disease or kidney disease.
So your, the shape of your trajectory is going to be different based on those circumstances.
But generally speaking, you have your period of, like maybe more interventions.
Oftentimes people opt for a lot of treatment, chemo, resections immunotherapy it.
(03:05):
Physical therapy and, all of these things that people have available to them from like the medical perspective, they're trying oftentimes in the, they're in the curative stage.
So if you get a diagnosis, most often people are trying to figure out, how do I get rid of this disease process that's in my body? So you're looking for treatment and maybe things are a little bit more aggressive.
Again, there's no, there's no norm, there's no blanket for everyone.
(03:27):
But when you're in the curative stage, you are actively trying to.
Put the cancer in remission, eradicate the disease in some way as well as managing your symptoms throughout that process.
At a certain point, it will become evident that the treatment is not going to be successful.
You have hit like the end of the efficacy for something like chemo, where potentially the.
(03:53):
The side effects and the consequences of those treatments and those surgeries and those other interventions might start to feel like they outweigh the potential benefits.
So what happens with someone who is undergoing a lot of interventions is when you are in your, say, optimal state of health, and you can think about what it means for you to be a hundred percent, and then you go in and you have a surgery to remove a tumor.
(04:21):
When you recover from that surgery and it's early on, you might get right up against a hundred percent in your recovery phase, but the more interventions, the more aggressive the disease is and its progression, the longer the time goes on plus a million other factors, you are not bouncing back to 100.
(04:43):
Every single time, it is more likely that you have a new 100 and then a new 100 and a new 100, and those one hundreds are lower than what your 100 was in a healthy body.
So you are bouncing back in the sense that you are recovering from the acute phase of the intervention and returning to what feels more normal for you.
(05:05):
But you are still pretty far off the mark from what it used to be a hundred percent.
So that combination of factors and that sort of bounce back will start to lead you to a place where the let's say like the nausea and the vomiting and the brain fog and the achiness and the neuropathy, maybe that might come with chemotherapy.
At a certain point, you're not gonna bounce back very well from that anymore, and you may not be willing to tolerate all of those side effects anymore.
(05:34):
Because it's becoming clear that the cancer is not abating, it's not going into remission.
So maybe it's starting to metastasize into new places.
There's a point at which it's diminishing returns, and then it's maybe.
Completely flipped over where it's causing more harm than causing you benefit.
This is an individual decision and there are many people who, either because of their personal nature or because the people around them are telling them that they need to fight as hard as they can up until the very last moment, never elect to go on hospice service, which is fine.
(06:11):
Always elect for continuing.
More aggressive treatment, which is fine.
Never sign a DNR, which is fine.
This is how we wind up with people who are in their, say late eighties, getting chest compressions and suffering a ton of broken ribs because they don't, in their mind, the best choice for them is to always pursue resuscitative and curative treatment.
(06:32):
This is all okay, but it's a matter of thinking about the consequences.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, right? We learn this in school physics, from a intervention and disease progression perspective, I think it's useful to think about what is the bounce back effect from these interventions, and at what point are we moving from being in a curative phase to being in a palliative phase? Palliative care means comfort care palliative begins, can begin as soon as you get your diagnosis.
(07:07):
So you can be engaged with palliative care throughout your curative stage.
And then when you reach the what's palliative care? Can you explain what that is? It's comfort care.
So it's symptom management and it's looking out for your environment, your relationships your logistics your planning.
It's just trying to optimize your quality of life and your personal comfort.
(07:30):
So it's pain management and symptom management on the one hand, but it's also emotional and spiritual reassurance.
These kinds of things are part of the equation as well.
So that's available all the way through palliative care if you are diagnosed with a life limiting illness.
But when you get to the stage where it's clear that treatment is no longer going to.
Have the same effect that you desire and you wish to stop doing that treatment, then you're at the point at which we are strictly in palliative care.
(07:59):
And it is often a stage in which people elect to go on hospice service.
Hospice is just the very end of palliative care.
So hospice is comfort care, but it's the kind of comfort care where.
Largely speaking, although there are beginning to be some exceptions I'm hearing to this rule, you have declined curative treatment.
So while you will still be treating, let's say a broken leg, you are likely not gonna treat something like pneumonia because you are accepting that death is near and you want to just be comfortable.
(08:35):
You're done fighting all the things that could be taking you out, and you are willing to just go through the process of whatever your body is going to experience while keeping an eye on your pain, keeping an eye on your alertness, managing those things to the degree to which you desire.
For some people, let's say, who have been sober for 40 years, the idea of taking morphine, no.
(09:02):
I'm not gonna take any kind of an opioid.
I'm not gonna take any kind of a pain medication.
I wanna be not introducing those substances into my body.
Now I've been clean of them for decades and I'm not willing to do that now.
Respect, that's their choice, right? Other people are like, send me to the moon.
I don't wanna feel anything.
So there's all kinds of choices in between that Be me.
(09:24):
Yeah.
I would love to have my pain manage also.
But that's me.
That's personal for my choice.
So when you get into that sort of stage where you are ceasing curative treatment and you are really just in palliative care and the body is starting to advance closer to death.
Barbara Carnes is an RN who has been doing this work as a hospice nurse for decades, and she has written some incredible booklets that are available through many hospice organizations that I give to the people that I engage with as a doula to help give them the broad strokes of what is going to happen to you months before death, weeks and days before death, imminent death.
(10:05):
The one that is most common is called Gone From my site.
It's a little pamphlet.
It's a great resource, but really the things that she describes in here and that any RN would tell you, and doulas will tell you as well.
You are embarking on a process that first of all is known to the body.
The body is intelligent and it knows how to shut down the shop.
(10:28):
Just as it knows how to take its first breath, right? So it knows what to do, and it will start to shut things down in the order in which it knows.
So you're gonna become sleepier.
You're gonna become less engaged with the world around you.
So for example, whereas six months ago, your granddaughter's dance recital, my.
(10:51):
Have been something that you wanted to see the recording of, and you'd be really excited.
You wanna talk through on the phone about it.
As you're getting closer to dying, you might not be as interested.
It's not because you don't love your granddaughter, but you've got bigger fish to fry at this point.
Your body's taking all of its available energy and resources to die.
So the more that it has to focus on that, the less it has to give to other systems in the body.
(11:15):
So things will start to change your you're going to become maybe less able to take care of yourself.
So some things might start to go in terms of your ability to get up and say get out of bed.
Your mobility is gonna decrease.
At a certain point, you will likely, not everyone, but often people become bedbound.
So that means that someone has to help them with toileting, with hygiene, with these kinds of things.
(11:40):
They're gonna be sleeping more, their pain may increase their pain may decrease in some ways as the body gets closer.
The two systems that shut down that we say define death are respiration and your circulation.
So your heart and your lungs.
So when those cease to function, that is clinically, you have died.
(12:01):
Along the way, they're starting to shut down also, right? So you're gonna notice some changes in someone's breathing patterns.
So not just the number of breaths that they take per minute, but the pattern of their breathing.
So where it may have felt very regular and steady, you might start to see some spikes or some panting, and then big periods of apnea, which is no breathing.
(12:22):
So the space between breaths might get longer.
You might hear.
What is so unfortunately called the death rattle, which is just a matter of the secretions that are natural in your body.
You're losing your ability, your muscle tone, right? Your ability to swallow, like things are getting slack, they're relaxing into death.
So your ability to swallow, let's say, is gonna be impacted a little bit.
(12:46):
So fluids are just starting to collect in places where otherwise you would have been in a healthier body able to clear those secretions.
They're not drowning.
They're rarely in distress, but it sounds terrifying to the people who surround them.
If it becomes just unbelievably bothersome to everyone.
(13:07):
There are medications that can dry up the secretions, but then they dry up everything else in the body with a mucus membrane.
So dry eyes, dry, mouth dry inside of your nose.
What's the trade off? You're going to experience changes in your blood pressure and changes in your heart rate.
Also, the body is still trying to survive, but things are shutting down.
(13:31):
Your blood pressure is going to be maybe dropping and your heart rate's gonna be elevated.
It's pumping a lot harder because it's trying to keep your blood pressure up, but your blood pressure's dropping because things are shutting down.
You might see some changes in the skin, and this is gonna look different on every body and every skin tone it's called.
Modeling is one way.
It looks like marbling a little bit on people.
It's usually like palms of the hands, soles of the feet.
(13:54):
It can start to travel, like up the arms, up the legs, your circulatory system is shutting down so the blood's not flowing all the way to your extremities anymore.
It's keeping it closer.
When someone's hypothermic and they get blue in the fingers because the blood is going to the core of the body.
Same thing's happening.
When you're dying, the blood is going to the most vital organs.
It's starting to say, we don't really need all this extra stuff out here anymore.
(14:14):
You might see some bluing or discoloration might look gray, might look brown, might look more black, might look more purple, might look.
More blue, depending on your skin tone in the fingertips, right? That's called cyanosis.
And then the modeling is just this kind of yeah.
Have you ever seen like a well marbled piece of steak? That's what it starts to look like.
Spotting or marbling on the hands and missles of the feet.
(14:34):
All this to say it doesn't happen to everyone and it doesn't happen at any defined time, but it might.
And it often does.
And so these are some of the ways that we start to look at the body for signs of like, how close are we getting? And the reason we wanna know that is because for many people, it's important for them that people are there to witness their death.
(14:56):
So if we know someone is going to be dying soon, we're calling in.
Family.
We're calling in the community.
We're calling in the people who are important to them.
Maybe we're calling in some clergy or some religious leaders.
Maybe we're calling in a prayer group.
Maybe we're calling in threshold choir.
Maybe we're calling in the pets to be, make sure they're on the bed because it was, this person's dying.
(15:21):
Wish to have the cat curled up on their lap as they were dying.
We're getting ready for the very end.
So we're looking for certain things in the body, but we're also letting go of expectations.
And that's a really big theme in doula work and in working with people to prepare for the end.
It's like you can plan plan, there's, what is that saying? It's how do you make God laugh? Make a plan, right? So it's the same kind of thing.
(15:44):
It's like you can plan this to the tea and then you never know how it's really gonna go.
People also sometimes experience.
What we might call the rally it is when someone is say, unresponsive for a really long period of time, like a couple of weeks, they're not eating much, right? So like also as the body's shutting down, you are defecating and urinating less because you're taking in less food and drink.
(16:07):
The decline and appetite and thirst is totally normal.
The body doesn't need more energy.
And also as your internal organs are starting to shut down, your digestion is impacted.
Maybe you can't take those things in the same way.
You can't swallow in the same way.
Over hydrating somebody can be dangerous and can cause pain.
This is where the nurses come in and they step in with their deep medical knowledge, but paying attention to not trying to force grandma to eat when grandma says she's not hungry is important at this stage.
(16:38):
So all of us to say, we have this absolutely in some ways known and in many ways mystical experience unfolding in front of us where we are watching the body do what it knows how to do and just being with it, just witnessing it is such a remarkable moment, oh, sorry.
(17:02):
For the rally be, just to go back to that when they're in this moment of they're, they say they appear to be just like deeply unconscious.
They're not responsive, they're not really eating and drinking, and then they just shoot up outta bed one day they sit both upright and they're like, I really wanna cheeseburger also, can you call Aunt Sarah? I really, there's something I really wanna tell her.
It's this, we don't really know why it happens.
(17:23):
It's happened enough times where it's in the literature that this is something that people can often see this like crazy weird surge right at the end.
And then when that's over, it's very brief.
It doesn't last for a week or something.
Typically when that's over, then we are imminent.
Typically then it's like hours usually before somebody dies.
Other things that might happen too, when somebody's getting closer to the end, you might hear them start to talk about people in the room who we can't see.
(17:50):
Who have already died.
So my step-grandmother of many decades, she died recently.
When she was in her last stages, one of my aunts was telling me that she was in the room with her and my grandmother was talking to her first husband, not my grandfather who died in 2017, but her first husband who had died many years before that.
(18:15):
So Jim was in the room.
And she was talking about talking to Jim.
Someone's getting close.
So they're having conversations with people who have preceded them in death.
They also sometimes talk about packing for a trip or they gotta go somewhere.
So there are these like inexplicable elements.
That surround the dying process that has really like nothing to do, observably with the body that we can be like, oh, this is a scientific, biological process and this is what's going down.
(18:42):
.5633728Sometimes it's just in the realm of the esoteric, my mom was dying. 189 00:18:48,459.5633728 --> 00:18:55,329.5633728 One of the things that I tried to do with her often was ask her if she had been dreaming and there was. 190 00:18:55,689.5633728 --> 00:19:00,39.5633728 A morning where she said, yeah, I had a dream about pop-up. 191 00:19:00,129.5633728 --> 00:19:00,909.5633728 That was her dad. 192 00:19:01,89.5633728 --> 00:19:02,379.5633728 He died in the early nineties. 193 00:19:02,799.5633728 --> 00:19:05,349.5633728 I had a dream about pop-up and he was handing me a cardinal. 194 00:19:06,999.5633728 --> 00:19:08,319.5633728 It was a really pleasant dream for her. 195 00:19:09,169.5633728 --> 00:19:13,339.5633728 She was very close to her dad, and the cardinal was her symbol for my brother. 196 00:19:16,44.5633728 --> 00:19:23,329.5633728 It still chokes me up every time I tell that story, but that was what she was dreaming about and she was gone within, I would say. 197 00:19:24,214.5633728 --> 00:19:26,74.5633728 A week of having had that dream. 198 00:19:27,64.5633728 --> 00:19:33,124.5633728 So on some metaphysical level, she was one foot in, one foot out. 199 00:19:33,634.5633728 --> 00:19:44,74.5633728 I like to think of it, she was communicating and preparing for her transition on a level that like isn't even accessible or observable to any of us. 200 00:19:44,884.5633728 --> 00:19:51,724.5633728 And there's something for me in my own personal practice, my own personal views around death that's so compelling and beautiful about that. 201 00:19:52,909.5633728 --> 00:20:09,919.5633728 It's not everybody's experience and there are people who die in terrible, painful ways, but there are also moments where we find these joyful, funny, memorable moments that can make us feel like there's something bigger at play. 202 00:20:10,624.5633728 --> 00:20:25,174.5633728 How have you seen cultural or generational differences shape the way people approach death? The influence of our culture and our time in which we are existing on this planet, like our generation matters so much. 203 00:20:25,624.5633728 --> 00:20:27,474.5633728 So I think, as we get. 204 00:20:28,59.5633728 --> 00:20:28,599.5633728 More. 205 00:20:28,599.5633728 --> 00:20:33,429.5633728 I think about like things like social media and so the interconnectivity and the instant availability of people. 206 00:20:33,819.5633728 --> 00:20:40,509.5633728 Any place on the planet to you at any time, any piece of information that we've ever known pretty much feels like you could find it on the internet somewhere. 207 00:20:40,809.5633728 --> 00:20:50,949.5633728 I think in some ways people now are more informed about and taking more agency around their choices that have to do with death and dying than they did years ago. 208 00:20:51,739.5633728 --> 00:20:54,589.5633728 I think we're moving toward more death transparency. 209 00:20:55,889.5633728 --> 00:21:02,659.5633728 You'll see this hashtag on social media or maybe you mentioned in the culture about like death positivity, be death positive. 210 00:21:04,9.5633728 --> 00:21:07,309.5633728 I don't love that also because it's a value statement for me. 211 00:21:08,449.5633728 --> 00:21:17,419.5633728 But I love death neutrality, and I love death acceptance, and I love death curiosity, and I love death transparency. 212 00:21:17,869.5633728 --> 00:21:21,139.5633728 I love all these other words that we can maybe substitute in for like positivity. 213 00:21:21,949.5633728 --> 00:21:30,399.5633728 I think we're moving toward a space of better comprehension, a little bit less fear in some ways because we can start to see the inner workings a little bit more. 214 00:21:30,979.5633728 --> 00:21:34,969.5633728 It's like you can see videos of any kind of funeral service. 215 00:21:35,159.5633728 --> 00:21:38,219.5633728 People post selfies next to the casket now. 216 00:21:38,714.5633728 --> 00:21:41,624.5633728 People didn't necessarily do that a hundred years ago. 217 00:21:42,434.5633728 --> 00:21:49,274.5633728 So in some ways the information about death and dying that is available to us is much more accessible than it has ever been. 218 00:21:49,274.5633728 --> 00:21:58,189.5633728 And so maybe that is allaying some people's trepidations and fears around death and dying and empowering them to become more prepared to make these choices for themselves sooner. 219 00:21:58,419.5633728 --> 00:22:00,969.5633728 But on the other hand, we are. 220 00:22:01,344.5633728 --> 00:22:07,854.5633728 Very far removed in a lot of ways from the intimacy of death that used to be part of our experience a hundred years ago. 221 00:22:08,524.5633728 --> 00:22:12,844.5633728 A funeral parlor is called a parlor because the parlor was the room in the home where you laid out the body. 222 00:22:12,844.5633728 --> 00:22:23,429.5633728 When someone died, a hundred years ago and beyond, people died at home and it was largely the women who did the body care and the tending of the dead. 223 00:22:23,429.5633728 --> 00:22:26,759.5633728 Men in the family typically would be the ones digging the plot. 224 00:22:27,419.5633728 --> 00:22:28,529.5633728 Lowering the casket. 225 00:22:28,529.5633728 --> 00:22:30,749.5633728 So there was that separation of responsibilities. 226 00:22:31,169.5633728 --> 00:22:35,999.5633728 However, people cared for their dying and their dad at home, and it was a community event. 227 00:22:36,239.5633728 --> 00:22:42,259.5633728 So people grew up in a culture where death was literally right in front of them. 228 00:22:42,259.5633728 --> 00:22:44,449.5633728 As a child, you weren't rushed out of the room. 229 00:22:44,929.5633728 --> 00:22:47,959.5633728 If someone's dying in the house, you're there for it. 230 00:22:48,349.5633728 --> 00:22:49,939.5633728 And then the body's in the house. 231 00:22:51,4.5633728 --> 00:22:53,824.5633728 You're there for it and then you're going to the funeral and you're there for it. 232 00:22:53,824.5633728 --> 00:22:59,164.5633728 And so in some ways, maybe it's more normalized back then and we know a little bit more about what to expect. 233 00:22:59,194.5633728 --> 00:22:59,884.5633728 'cause we've seen it. 234 00:22:59,884.5633728 --> 00:23:06,964.5633728 We've seen what happens when somebody's body begins to break down and we see what happens to people around us as they're grieving and what's important to them. 235 00:23:07,744.5633728 --> 00:23:08,794.5633728 Maybe we have different. 236 00:23:09,199.5633728 --> 00:23:30,199.5633728 Things we grieve now actually than we did a hundred years ago, because we are removed from it in such a way that it has been pushed into this external industrialized version of death care, where now you have to be licensed and it has to be a business, and there's permitting and there are regulations and there are rules, and it is profitable. 237 00:23:32,269.5633728 --> 00:23:32,959.5633728 That's very different. 238 00:23:33,499.5633728 --> 00:23:37,969.5633728 So it has moved in some ways to becoming more accessible, I think. 239 00:23:38,374.5633728 --> 00:23:54,34.5633728 In the sense of information and working within the systems that are present now, but an opposite effect, I think people are less intimately connected to death and dying because they are not given the opportunity to be with it in the ways that we were when we were taking care of our dead at home. 240 00:23:54,754.5633728 --> 00:24:04,654.5633728 However, in the last few years there has been a big resurgence in desire for and information to share with people around their rights to take care of their dead. 241 00:24:05,764.5633728 --> 00:24:07,444.5633728 People are allowed to die at home. 242 00:24:07,714.5633728 --> 00:24:18,364.5633728 You are allowed to have your loved one's body at home for usually about a couple of days after maybe three max. 243 00:24:18,364.5633728 --> 00:24:21,364.5633728 I wouldn't push it beyond that, and every state's of course different. 244 00:24:21,964.5633728 --> 00:24:25,894.5633728 You can have a home funeral if it is zoned for this. 245 00:24:25,984.5633728 --> 00:24:27,484.5633728 You can bury somebody on your property. 246 00:24:28,864.5633728 --> 00:24:40,744.5633728 In no state in the United States, is it mandatory that you use an outer burial container and someone has to be in a fancy casket to be buried, but because they're private businesses, they get to set their rules. 247 00:24:41,374.5633728 --> 00:24:50,454.5633728 So if for them it is their practice of having the cement vault or outer burial container in the plot, and then the casket gets lowered into that's your choice if you wanna go with that cemetery. 248 00:24:50,964.5633728 --> 00:24:54,324.5633728 But that's not from a federal statutes standpoint, that's not mandated. 249 00:24:54,474.5633728 --> 00:24:55,644.5633728 Nobody has to have that. 250 00:24:56,934.5633728 --> 00:24:59,124.5633728 People don't know because we don't talk about it. 251 00:24:59,574.5633728 --> 00:25:05,784.5633728 And then we show up at the funeral home in acute grief without our logical brain, very accessible to us. 252 00:25:06,264.5633728 --> 00:25:13,794.5633728 And we're looking to people for answers because we didn't do the pre-work of sitting with death beforehand, before it became urgent. 253 00:25:13,863.7805597 --> 00:25:16,293.7805597 I worked as a funeral attendant for a couple of years. 254 00:25:17,433.7805597 --> 00:25:33,743.7805597 I had the opportunity to witness so many different types of funeral services, Buddhist, Hindu latter Day Saints, general Christian Catholic Services Mexican Catholic Services here in the Southwest, right? Mariachi at the graveside. 255 00:25:34,383.7805597 --> 00:25:40,983.7805597 We hosted a Tongan service, so folks showing up in ceremonial dress and performing at graveside. 256 00:25:41,643.7805597 --> 00:25:44,103.7805597 So the Buddhist services monks, seven hours. 257 00:25:44,793.7805597 --> 00:25:47,373.7805597 There are, there's food laid out, there's a table there. 258 00:25:47,403.7805597 --> 00:25:59,143.7805597 There are, there's seating there are candles, there's incense going witness cremations accompanying the body to the retort and being part of the process to, ease someone into their final transition. 259 00:25:59,593.7805597 --> 00:26:01,663.7805597 Orthodox Jewish burials. 260 00:26:02,203.7805597 --> 00:26:05,53.7805597 Muslim burials, the head has to face a particular direction. 261 00:26:05,533.7805597 --> 00:26:08,613.7805597 In an Orthodox Jewish burial, there is a Handwashing station. 262 00:26:08,883.7805597 --> 00:26:14,883.7805597 So there are different it's a rite of passage in a different way for different faith traditions and different cultures. 263 00:26:16,743.7805597 --> 00:26:27,903.7805597 It is fascinating to me to be able to be exposed to them and to learn about them, and I think really no matter what systems we have in place. 264 00:26:29,703.7805597 --> 00:26:36,603.7805597 That director influence how we care for our dying and how we celebrate our dead. 265 00:26:37,773.7805597 --> 00:26:44,133.7805597 I think people always find a way to hold true to the traditions that are most meaningful to them in their culture, in their family, in their community. 266 00:26:44,613.7805597 --> 00:26:45,303.7805597 You find a way. 267 00:26:47,583.7805597 --> 00:26:48,183.7805597 You find a way. 268 00:26:48,993.7805597 --> 00:27:16,848.7805597 The next question of any shifts that you've noticed, or have there been any shifts that you've noticed in how communities are either reclaiming or resisting traditional death care practices? What are you seeing from your position in the work that you do? I think that there is, as I said a move in some circles to refamiliarize themselves with ancestral. 269 00:27:17,238.7805597 --> 00:27:18,498.7805597 Death care practices. 270 00:27:19,68.7805597 --> 00:27:29,568.7805597 So discovering through the roots of your heritage, the heritage of your community, your culture, where you're living as much as like where you come from. 271 00:27:29,668.7805597 --> 00:27:33,208.7805597 So going back to like ancestral traditions is something I see people doing. 272 00:27:33,708.7805597 --> 00:27:38,568.7805597 Part of my heritage is Irish, so for me, investigating those traditions is learning things like. 273 00:27:39,753.7805597 --> 00:27:44,193.7805597 You always open a window so that someone's soul can leave a home. 274 00:27:44,613.7805597 --> 00:27:52,533.7805597 So like discovering things like that and then trying to find ways to then fit that into the systems that are available to us is part of it. 275 00:27:52,533.7805597 --> 00:27:59,903.7805597 So I think people are getting more curious about what people have always done, who are in their line in however way that line is drawn. 276 00:28:00,453.7805597 --> 00:28:03,213.7805597 I think people are becoming more. 277 00:28:03,498.7805597 --> 00:28:06,648.7805597 Interested in the idea of what it could mean to have a home funeral. 278 00:28:07,48.7805597 --> 00:28:11,578.7805597 The National Home Funeral Alliance, national Home. 279 00:28:11,818.7805597 --> 00:28:12,958.7805597 NHFA? Yes. 280 00:28:13,468.7805597 --> 00:28:20,728.7805597 Incredible resource for anybody who wants to know the basics about how to care for someone who has died in your home. 281 00:28:20,728.7805597 --> 00:28:22,228.7805597 How to prepare them for a service. 282 00:28:22,588.7805597 --> 00:28:24,58.7805597 I think more people are getting interested. 283 00:28:24,58.7805597 --> 00:28:26,428.7805597 I don't know that we're gonna see this. 284 00:28:26,788.7805597 --> 00:28:27,808.7805597 Incredible wave. 285 00:28:27,858.7805597 --> 00:28:36,348.7805597 It's gonna shift back to where people really doing this at home, more so than people dying in hospitals and assisted living facilities or under hospice service. 286 00:28:36,348.7805597 --> 00:28:42,768.7805597 And then doing the service at a funeral home, a mortuary, a synagogue, wherever else folks might be wanting, have their services. 287 00:28:43,68.7805597 --> 00:28:46,218.7805597 But I do think it's interesting that folks are trying to figure out what that means. 288 00:28:46,813.7805597 --> 00:28:55,183.7805597 How do you keep a body cool? How do you safely transport someone? What kind of permits do you have to get? What are the zoning regulations? This kind of a thing. 289 00:28:55,303.7805597 --> 00:28:59,113.7805597 And I think also people are getting more interested in more. 290 00:28:59,503.7805597 --> 00:29:02,713.7805597 Eco-friendly or alternative methods of disposition. 291 00:29:02,743.7805597 --> 00:29:06,403.7805597 So I'd mentioned earlier, alkaline hydrolysis or acclamation. 292 00:29:06,973.7805597 --> 00:29:10,213.7805597 Again, every method of disposition is gonna have a consequence. 293 00:29:10,273.7805597 --> 00:29:11,23.7805597 There is an impact. 294 00:29:11,23.7805597 --> 00:29:12,403.7805597 There is no impact free. 295 00:29:12,553.7805597 --> 00:29:17,323.7805597 Even if you put a body into the ground, it has an effect, right? It has an effect by its decomposition. 296 00:29:17,653.7805597 --> 00:29:22,453.7805597 Choosing things that feel more environmentally sustainable is becoming more and more important to certain people. 297 00:29:22,503.7805597 --> 00:29:33,333.7805597 Maybe they don't want to be put into a cement vault in a $15,000 casket that's lacquered and has a bunch of non biodegradable materials in it. 298 00:29:34,83.7805597 --> 00:29:35,493.7805597 Maybe that doesn't feel right for them. 299 00:29:35,943.7805597 --> 00:29:39,843.7805597 Maybe they'd rather move towards, say, a wicker casket that can go into. 300 00:29:40,308.7805597 --> 00:29:44,838.7805597 Maybe it still has to go into the vault, but at least they're taking one piece out that feels less sustainable to them. 301 00:29:45,198.7805597 --> 00:29:47,298.7805597 Maybe they're moving toward natural organic reduction. 302 00:29:47,568.7805597 --> 00:29:56,328.7805597 This is only legal in a handful of states, although those states will work with you, funeral homes will work with you for transportation permits to move the body to their facilities for processing. 303 00:29:56,328.7805597 --> 00:30:12,148.7805597 But in those places you're not having the release of toxicity through flame cremation I think people are getting motivated to learn more about the consequences of these disposition options and then choosing the one that feels most comfortable for them and for their families. 304 00:30:12,998.7805597 --> 00:30:18,638.7805597 And then I think also just the idea of the doula is gaining a lot more traction. 305 00:30:18,998.7805597 --> 00:30:23,198.7805597 Again, this is something that people have been doing for one another since the dawn of time. 306 00:30:24,488.7805597 --> 00:30:37,268.7805597 It is my hope that people become more educated about what it means to be with someone who's dying, not so that they can go out and hang a shingle and run a business and make a buck off of it, although that's acceptable too. 307 00:30:37,398.7805597 --> 00:30:45,648.7805597 I also have a private practice as well as volunteer, as well as companion people who are close to me, but I would love for people to feel more comfortable. 308 00:30:46,848.7805597 --> 00:30:57,738.7805597 When someone is dying in their home, that they feel confident that they can show up with this spirit and this education, and this knowledge that doulas carry in a really developed way to bedside. 309 00:30:58,288.7805597 --> 00:31:00,418.7805597 I'd love, I like a trend. 310 00:31:00,418.7805597 --> 00:31:12,538.7805597 I would love to see, this is not a question you asked, but a trend that I would like to see would be people embracing their relationship with death as it appears in their lives. 311 00:31:14,408.7805597 --> 00:31:18,148.7805597 By just sitting through the struggle of resistance. 312 00:31:19,78.7805597 --> 00:31:35,988.7805597 When you know that someone has been diagnosed with a terminal illness and they are in decline, resisting your resistance to going to visit them because you're afraid of what the body's gonna look like or sound or smell or how that person might be or not be behaving or responding. 313 00:31:36,843.7805597 --> 00:31:45,333.7805597 People often wait until the very last minute and then they miss the opportunity to have a cogent conversation with someone because we're so afraid of death. 314 00:31:45,333.7805597 --> 00:31:48,723.7805597 Moon, don't even wanna look at somebody who's not even dead yet, but is gonna be soon. 315 00:31:49,473.7805597 --> 00:31:51,153.7805597 So that's a way to do it. 316 00:31:51,653.7805597 --> 00:31:52,913.7805597 If you feel so moved. 317 00:31:53,723.7805597 --> 00:31:56,993.7805597 Maybe doing some volunteering with your local hospice organization. 318 00:31:57,23.7805597 --> 00:32:00,803.7805597 Be of service, be around people who are dying, who aren't related to you. 319 00:32:00,803.7805597 --> 00:32:03,713.7805597 That's another way to maybe get a little bit more comfort and familiarity. 320 00:32:03,713.7805597 --> 00:32:06,383.7805597 Just be around folks who are aging and dying. 321 00:32:06,833.7805597 --> 00:32:17,123.7805597 And then I think just starting to think about what that might mean for you, and then observing the transitions that are already occurring around you on a daily basis. 322 00:32:18,353.7805597 --> 00:32:19,883.7805597 So treating death more like. 323 00:32:20,603.7805597 --> 00:32:29,543.7805597 If not a friend, an expected visitor, rather than this event to run from, or this like nefarious villain who's out to get you. 324 00:32:30,143.7805597 --> 00:32:35,803.7805597 I would love to see people be more welcoming or at least open to the idea that this is going to happen. 325 00:32:37,33.7805597 --> 00:32:39,183.7805597 So why not befriend it if you can. 326 00:32:39,993.7805597 --> 00:32:44,493.7805597 The depth that you have and your ability to share your work is. 327 00:32:45,168.7805597 --> 00:32:45,978.7805597 Outstanding. 328 00:32:46,98.7805597 --> 00:32:47,628.7805597 Like it's really beautiful. 329 00:32:47,778.7805597 --> 00:32:49,788.7805597 And you've changed me today. 330 00:32:50,838.7805597 --> 00:32:57,588.7805597 Thank you so much for the opportunity to share my passion and to have influenced the way that you think about this. 331 00:32:57,638.7805597 --> 00:33:00,918.7805597 I have a colleague who likes to say, if one person shows up, it's enough. 332 00:33:02,898.7805597 --> 00:33:19,948.7805597 And we forget that sometimes when we're doing a talk or being on a podcast or leading a class or trying to put on a community workshop, we think it's a failure If one person shows, like we have to have masses of people show up in order for it to be like successful or worth it. 333 00:33:20,518.7805597 --> 00:33:24,418.7805597 But when it comes to death and dying, one conversation, if that. 334 00:33:24,808.7805597 --> 00:33:25,378.7805597 Shifts. 335 00:33:25,378.7805597 --> 00:33:27,868.7805597 Someone's thinking one degree. 336 00:33:29,458.7805597 --> 00:33:31,978.7805597 Who knows where that ripple effect goes, and that's enough. 337 00:33:32,38.7805597 --> 00:33:34,348.7805597 So every time I get to talk about this, it's enough. 338 00:33:34,378.7805597 --> 00:33:37,618.7805597 I'm satisfied with the way that I'm showing up in the world around this work. 339 00:33:38,668.7805597 --> 00:33:47,818.7805597 I think one thing I would like to emphasize that I didn't mention earlier when we were talking about the difference between what doulas offer and what hospice offers. 340 00:33:48,388.7805597 --> 00:34:00,148.7805597 Doulas work with all kinds of death, not only hospice, so hospice workers are working with people who have a life expectancy of six months or fewer if the disease progresses at the established rate. 341 00:34:00,148.7805597 --> 00:34:04,288.7805597 That's like the Pat Medical Medicare eligibility definition. 342 00:34:04,918.7805597 --> 00:34:06,418.7805597 Doulas can work with you. 343 00:34:07,228.7805597 --> 00:34:17,788.7805597 From the time you have agency over your own body, so let's say you're decisional and 18 years old, we can help you walk through the beginnings, the bare bones of what it looks like to be prepared for your own death. 344 00:34:18,118.7805597 --> 00:34:23,308.7805597 We can walk with you as you are accompanying somebody else in their death. 345 00:34:23,308.7805597 --> 00:34:27,928.7805597 I have had many clients who have been partners or children of the dying person. 346 00:34:28,558.7805597 --> 00:34:29,488.7805597 Not the dying person. 347 00:34:29,728.7805597 --> 00:34:32,638.7805597 They don't want the doula, but the person who's with them does. 348 00:34:33,448.7805597 --> 00:34:37,318.7805597 So doulas are available to the people who are not dying in that moment. 349 00:34:37,648.7805597 --> 00:34:40,528.7805597 We are available to people who experience sudden death. 350 00:34:41,218.7805597 --> 00:35:00,363.7805597 So if you experience a loss that is tragic, violent, unexpected, whether it's a heart attack, it's war, it's a murder, it's death by suicide, a sudden illness, we can be there to walk with you in your circle to help look at what is ahead and what that means for you. 351 00:35:01,98.7805597 --> 00:35:05,598.7805597 We can be with people at any stage of life to think about their death. 352 00:35:05,868.7805597 --> 00:35:12,168.7805597 Auspice is limited in its time period, and it has to have, some things associated with it. 353 00:35:12,168.7805597 --> 00:35:20,178.7805597 But doulas can work anywhere that death shows up, which is everywhere, including helping people to address their fear and anxiety. 354 00:35:20,598.7805597 --> 00:35:34,28.7805597 I think it's important for people to know that, we say end of life doula, or we say death doula, but it really is not limited to just when you're, when the clock is ticking and you're in the final stretch of the road, it really is at any time. 355 00:35:34,208.7805597 --> 00:35:50,678.7805597 Thank you so much for your wisdom and your words, and I really do believe that you're gonna help a lot of people get past whatever fear they might have when it comes to dying and death. 356 00:35:51,983.7805597 --> 00:35:54,713.7805597 I'm so glad to have been able to be in conversation with you. 357 00:35:54,763.7805597 --> 00:36:05,383.7805597 It feels so easy and natural for me to talk about death and dying and to be able to be in a conversation that also felt free and easy and full of curiosity. 358 00:36:05,623.7805597 --> 00:36:07,303.7805597 Just really, it just, it. 359 00:36:08,83.7805597 --> 00:36:09,853.7805597 It just juices me up so much. 360 00:36:09,853.7805597 --> 00:36:21,463.7805597 It brings me so much joy and so much fulfillment to awaken people to different ways of thinking about death and dying that are not the ways that we're told necessarily that we should be perceiving it. 361 00:36:21,883.7805597 --> 00:36:31,148.7805597 If people want more perspective shifting from you, where can they find you? I would love to point people to my website, which is knight rose death care.com. 362 00:36:31,818.7805597 --> 00:36:36,498.7805597 I'm available for consultation for services. 363 00:36:36,768.7805597 --> 00:36:42,468.7805597 I'm also a celebrant, so I do help people with planning services after a loved one has died. 364 00:36:42,498.7805597 --> 00:36:45,328.7805597 Those things are separate but also available. 365 00:36:45,688.7805597 --> 00:36:54,868.7805597 There are lots of resources for the partnerships that I participate in, the alliances and the communities that I've built more about my own background, my trainings, my proficiencies, all of those things. 366 00:36:54,868.7805597 --> 00:37:00,718.7805597 So if you're curious to know more about me or to know more about the kind of services that I provide, that's a great place to start. 367 00:37:01,108.7805597 --> 00:37:02,218.7805597 Amazing, thank you. 368 00:37:03,13.7805597 --> 00:37:03,823.7805597 So much. 369 00:37:03,823.7805597 --> 00:37:04,753.7805597 You are a gift. 370 00:37:05,293.7805597 --> 00:37:06,523.7805597 Thank you so much. 371 00:37:11,440.0261674 --> 00:37:11,800.0261674 Whew. 372 00:37:13,840.0261674 --> 00:37:21,640.0261674 Talk about a perspective shift, huh? So as we close out this practical lens on death, I wanna leave you with this. 373 00:37:22,90.0261674 --> 00:37:34,795.0261674 If we can be present at death the way we are at birth with softness, awe, and maybe even celebration, how might that shift the way we live? Next week we're gonna sit down with Joél Maldonado, also known as the Grave Woman. 374 00:37:35,395.0261674 --> 00:37:40,135.0261674 She's a mortician and she's gonna walk us through the science traditions and historical truths of death care. 375 00:37:40,975.0261674 --> 00:37:48,115.0261674 So if you've ever been curious about embalming, decomposition, or why death has been so sanitized in the modern world, you won't wanna miss it. 376 00:37:48,745.0261674 --> 00:37:52,795.0261674 And if you like this episode and wanna hear more, don't forget to like, share, and follow. 377 00:37:53,635.0261674 --> 00:37:56,425.0261674 This is the Hanged Woman Podcast, where perspective is power. 378 00:37:57,55.0261674 --> 00:37:59,245.0261674 Until next time, hang in there.
Hey seekers.
Just a heads up.
This episode contains open and honest conversations about death, the dying process, and end of life care.
We discuss real life examples of death, including emotional and practical aspects of what happens when someone dies.
While these topics are shared with care and compassion, they may be sensitive or triggering for some listeners, please take care as you listen and feel free to pause or return when you're ready.
(00:24):
Hey, fellow seekers and welcome back to the Hanged Woman Podcast.
I'm your host, Julienne Irons, and this is part two of our conversation with Death Midwife and advocate Kim Stravers Now, if you haven't listened to part one, I highly encourage you to go listen to it because we explored Kim's path into the sacred work and why planning for our own death can be one of the most loving things we can do for ourselves and for the people we care about.
(00:47):
Now, in this episode, just be prepared because we're gonna go even deeper.
Kim is gonna gently walk us through what actually happens as the body prepares to die from the physical signs to the spiritual shifts.
This part of the conversation is about demystifying the process and offering insight into how we can show up for ourselves and for those we love with clarity, presence, and compassion.
(01:09):
So if you're ready, seekers, let's get into it.
Hey fellow seekers.
I'm taking a quick pause from the show to share something really close to my heart.
And honestly, the only reason you're even listening to this podcast right now, it's 3 of Cups.
(01:30):
My sisters and I created 3 of Cups an Irons Sisters Mission of Love as a space for healing, beauty, growth, and community because we believe life is meant to be full, rich, and abundant in every way.
We offer all kinds of ways to support you.
Like energy healing, heart-centered art, plant-based medicinals, even marketing that will help enhance your brand's presence in the world.
Because wherever you are in your journey, we wanna help you feel seen, supported, and empowered.
(01:53):
So if you're looking for something to help fill your cup in whatever way you need, come join us.
Follow us on Instagram @3ofCupsHealing, or explore all of our offerings at 3ofCupsHealing.com.
Because Seeker your cup deserves to be foam.
And now back to the episode.
(02:15):
Are you able to walk us through the stages of the dying process? Yeah, I can give you broad strokes for that.
They're gonna look different depending on what is going on with someone's particular body.
So someone who is experiencing terminal illness is gonna have a different experience than somebody who has say, dementia.
(02:39):
Which is gonna be different from somebody who has, say, heart disease or kidney disease.
So your, the shape of your trajectory is going to be different based on those circumstances.
But generally speaking, you have your period of, like maybe more interventions.
Oftentimes people opt for a lot of treatment, chemo, resections immunotherapy it.
(03:05):
Physical therapy and, all of these things that people have available to them from like the medical perspective, they're trying oftentimes in the, they're in the curative stage.
So if you get a diagnosis, most often people are trying to figure out, how do I get rid of this disease process that's in my body? So you're looking for treatment and maybe things are a little bit more aggressive.
Again, there's no, there's no norm, there's no blanket for everyone.
(03:27):
But when you're in the curative stage, you are actively trying to.
Put the cancer in remission, eradicate the disease in some way as well as managing your symptoms throughout that process.
At a certain point, it will become evident that the treatment is not going to be successful.
You have hit like the end of the efficacy for something like chemo, where potentially the.
(03:53):
The side effects and the consequences of those treatments and those surgeries and those other interventions might start to feel like they outweigh the potential benefits.
So what happens with someone who is undergoing a lot of interventions is when you are in your, say, optimal state of health, and you can think about what it means for you to be a hundred percent, and then you go in and you have a surgery to remove a tumor.
(04:21):
When you recover from that surgery and it's early on, you might get right up against a hundred percent in your recovery phase, but the more interventions, the more aggressive the disease is and its progression, the longer the time goes on plus a million other factors, you are not bouncing back to 100.
(04:43):
Every single time, it is more likely that you have a new 100 and then a new 100 and a new 100, and those one hundreds are lower than what your 100 was in a healthy body.
So you are bouncing back in the sense that you are recovering from the acute phase of the intervention and returning to what feels more normal for you.
(05:05):
But you are still pretty far off the mark from what it used to be a hundred percent.
So that combination of factors and that sort of bounce back will start to lead you to a place where the let's say like the nausea and the vomiting and the brain fog and the achiness and the neuropathy, maybe that might come with chemotherapy.
At a certain point, you're not gonna bounce back very well from that anymore, and you may not be willing to tolerate all of those side effects anymore.
(05:34):
Because it's becoming clear that the cancer is not abating, it's not going into remission.
So maybe it's starting to metastasize into new places.
There's a point at which it's diminishing returns, and then it's maybe.
Completely flipped over where it's causing more harm than causing you benefit.
This is an individual decision and there are many people who, either because of their personal nature or because the people around them are telling them that they need to fight as hard as they can up until the very last moment, never elect to go on hospice service, which is fine.
(06:11):
Always elect for continuing.
More aggressive treatment, which is fine.
Never sign a DNR, which is fine.
This is how we wind up with people who are in their, say late eighties, getting chest compressions and suffering a ton of broken ribs because they don't, in their mind, the best choice for them is to always pursue resuscitative and curative treatment.
(06:32):
This is all okay, but it's a matter of thinking about the consequences.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, right? We learn this in school physics, from a intervention and disease progression perspective, I think it's useful to think about what is the bounce back effect from these interventions, and at what point are we moving from being in a curative phase to being in a palliative phase? Palliative care means comfort care palliative begins, can begin as soon as you get your diagnosis.
(07:07):
So you can be engaged with palliative care throughout your curative stage.
And then when you reach the what's palliative care? Can you explain what that is? It's comfort care.
So it's symptom management and it's looking out for your environment, your relationships your logistics your planning.
It's just trying to optimize your quality of life and your personal comfort.
(07:30):
So it's pain management and symptom management on the one hand, but it's also emotional and spiritual reassurance.
These kinds of things are part of the equation as well.
So that's available all the way through palliative care if you are diagnosed with a life limiting illness.
But when you get to the stage where it's clear that treatment is no longer going to.
Have the same effect that you desire and you wish to stop doing that treatment, then you're at the point at which we are strictly in palliative care.
(07:59):
And it is often a stage in which people elect to go on hospice service.
Hospice is just the very end of palliative care.
So hospice is comfort care, but it's the kind of comfort care where.
Largely speaking, although there are beginning to be some exceptions I'm hearing to this rule, you have declined curative treatment.
So while you will still be treating, let's say a broken leg, you are likely not gonna treat something like pneumonia because you are accepting that death is near and you want to just be comfortable.
(08:35):
You're done fighting all the things that could be taking you out, and you are willing to just go through the process of whatever your body is going to experience while keeping an eye on your pain, keeping an eye on your alertness, managing those things to the degree to which you desire.
For some people, let's say, who have been sober for 40 years, the idea of taking morphine, no.
(09:02):
I'm not gonna take any kind of an opioid.
I'm not gonna take any kind of a pain medication.
I wanna be not introducing those substances into my body.
Now I've been clean of them for decades and I'm not willing to do that now.
Respect, that's their choice, right? Other people are like, send me to the moon.
I don't wanna feel anything.
So there's all kinds of choices in between that Be me.
(09:24):
Yeah.
I would love to have my pain manage also.
But that's me.
That's personal for my choice.
So when you get into that sort of stage where you are ceasing curative treatment and you are really just in palliative care and the body is starting to advance closer to death.
Barbara Carnes is an RN who has been doing this work as a hospice nurse for decades, and she has written some incredible booklets that are available through many hospice organizations that I give to the people that I engage with as a doula to help give them the broad strokes of what is going to happen to you months before death, weeks and days before death, imminent death.
(10:05):
The one that is most common is called Gone From my site.
It's a little pamphlet.
It's a great resource, but really the things that she describes in here and that any RN would tell you, and doulas will tell you as well.
You are embarking on a process that first of all is known to the body.
The body is intelligent and it knows how to shut down the shop.
(10:28):
Just as it knows how to take its first breath, right? So it knows what to do, and it will start to shut things down in the order in which it knows.
So you're gonna become sleepier.
You're gonna become less engaged with the world around you.
So for example, whereas six months ago, your granddaughter's dance recital, my.
(10:51):
Have been something that you wanted to see the recording of, and you'd be really excited.
You wanna talk through on the phone about it.
As you're getting closer to dying, you might not be as interested.
It's not because you don't love your granddaughter, but you've got bigger fish to fry at this point.
Your body's taking all of its available energy and resources to die.
So the more that it has to focus on that, the less it has to give to other systems in the body.
(11:15):
So things will start to change your you're going to become maybe less able to take care of yourself.
So some things might start to go in terms of your ability to get up and say get out of bed.
Your mobility is gonna decrease.
At a certain point, you will likely, not everyone, but often people become bedbound.
So that means that someone has to help them with toileting, with hygiene, with these kinds of things.
(11:40):
They're gonna be sleeping more, their pain may increase their pain may decrease in some ways as the body gets closer.
The two systems that shut down that we say define death are respiration and your circulation.
So your heart and your lungs.
So when those cease to function, that is clinically, you have died.
(12:01):
Along the way, they're starting to shut down also, right? So you're gonna notice some changes in someone's breathing patterns.
So not just the number of breaths that they take per minute, but the pattern of their breathing.
So where it may have felt very regular and steady, you might start to see some spikes or some panting, and then big periods of apnea, which is no breathing.
(12:22):
So the space between breaths might get longer.
You might hear.
What is so unfortunately called the death rattle, which is just a matter of the secretions that are natural in your body.
You're losing your ability, your muscle tone, right? Your ability to swallow, like things are getting slack, they're relaxing into death.
So your ability to swallow, let's say, is gonna be impacted a little bit.
(12:46):
So fluids are just starting to collect in places where otherwise you would have been in a healthier body able to clear those secretions.
They're not drowning.
They're rarely in distress, but it sounds terrifying to the people who surround them.
If it becomes just unbelievably bothersome to everyone.
(13:07):
There are medications that can dry up the secretions, but then they dry up everything else in the body with a mucus membrane.
So dry eyes, dry, mouth dry inside of your nose.
What's the trade off? You're going to experience changes in your blood pressure and changes in your heart rate.
Also, the body is still trying to survive, but things are shutting down.
(13:31):
Your blood pressure is going to be maybe dropping and your heart rate's gonna be elevated.
It's pumping a lot harder because it's trying to keep your blood pressure up, but your blood pressure's dropping because things are shutting down.
You might see some changes in the skin, and this is gonna look different on every body and every skin tone it's called.
Modeling is one way.
It looks like marbling a little bit on people.
It's usually like palms of the hands, soles of the feet.
(13:54):
It can start to travel, like up the arms, up the legs, your circulatory system is shutting down so the blood's not flowing all the way to your extremities anymore.
It's keeping it closer.
When someone's hypothermic and they get blue in the fingers because the blood is going to the core of the body.
Same thing's happening.
When you're dying, the blood is going to the most vital organs.
It's starting to say, we don't really need all this extra stuff out here anymore.
(14:14):
You might see some bluing or discoloration might look gray, might look brown, might look more black, might look more purple, might look.
More blue, depending on your skin tone in the fingertips, right? That's called cyanosis.
And then the modeling is just this kind of yeah.
Have you ever seen like a well marbled piece of steak? That's what it starts to look like.
Spotting or marbling on the hands and missles of the feet.
(14:34):
All this to say it doesn't happen to everyone and it doesn't happen at any defined time, but it might.
And it often does.
And so these are some of the ways that we start to look at the body for signs of like, how close are we getting? And the reason we wanna know that is because for many people, it's important for them that people are there to witness their death.
(14:56):
So if we know someone is going to be dying soon, we're calling in.
Family.
We're calling in the community.
We're calling in the people who are important to them.
Maybe we're calling in some clergy or some religious leaders.
Maybe we're calling in a prayer group.
Maybe we're calling in threshold choir.
Maybe we're calling in the pets to be, make sure they're on the bed because it was, this person's dying.
(15:21):
Wish to have the cat curled up on their lap as they were dying.
We're getting ready for the very end.
So we're looking for certain things in the body, but we're also letting go of expectations.
And that's a really big theme in doula work and in working with people to prepare for the end.
It's like you can plan plan, there's, what is that saying? It's how do you make God laugh? Make a plan, right? So it's the same kind of thing.
(15:44):
It's like you can plan this to the tea and then you never know how it's really gonna go.
People also sometimes experience.
What we might call the rally it is when someone is say, unresponsive for a really long period of time, like a couple of weeks, they're not eating much, right? So like also as the body's shutting down, you are defecating and urinating less because you're taking in less food and drink.
(16:07):
The decline and appetite and thirst is totally normal.
The body doesn't need more energy.
And also as your internal organs are starting to shut down, your digestion is impacted.
Maybe you can't take those things in the same way.
You can't swallow in the same way.
Over hydrating somebody can be dangerous and can cause pain.
This is where the nurses come in and they step in with their deep medical knowledge, but paying attention to not trying to force grandma to eat when grandma says she's not hungry is important at this stage.
(16:38):
So all of us to say, we have this absolutely in some ways known and in many ways mystical experience unfolding in front of us where we are watching the body do what it knows how to do and just being with it, just witnessing it is such a remarkable moment, oh, sorry.
(17:02):
For the rally be, just to go back to that when they're in this moment of they're, they say they appear to be just like deeply unconscious.
They're not responsive, they're not really eating and drinking, and then they just shoot up outta bed one day they sit both upright and they're like, I really wanna cheeseburger also, can you call Aunt Sarah? I really, there's something I really wanna tell her.
It's this, we don't really know why it happens.
(17:23):
It's happened enough times where it's in the literature that this is something that people can often see this like crazy weird surge right at the end.
And then when that's over, it's very brief.
It doesn't last for a week or something.
Typically when that's over, then we are imminent.
Typically then it's like hours usually before somebody dies.
Other things that might happen too, when somebody's getting closer to the end, you might hear them start to talk about people in the room who we can't see.
(17:50):
Who have already died.
So my step-grandmother of many decades, she died recently.
When she was in her last stages, one of my aunts was telling me that she was in the room with her and my grandmother was talking to her first husband, not my grandfather who died in 2017, but her first husband who had died many years before that.
(18:15):
So Jim was in the room.
And she was talking about talking to Jim.
Someone's getting close.
So they're having conversations with people who have preceded them in death.
They also sometimes talk about packing for a trip or they gotta go somewhere.
So there are these like inexplicable elements.
That surround the dying process that has really like nothing to do, observably with the body that we can be like, oh, this is a scientific, biological process and this is what's going down.
(18:42):
.5633728Sometimes it's just in the realm of the esoteric, my mom was dying. 189 00:18:48,459.5633728 --> 00:18:55,329.5633728 One of the things that I tried to do with her often was ask her if she had been dreaming and there was. 190 00:18:55,689.5633728 --> 00:19:00,39.5633728 A morning where she said, yeah, I had a dream about pop-up. 191 00:19:00,129.5633728 --> 00:19:00,909.5633728 That was her dad. 192 00:19:01,89.5633728 --> 00:19:02,379.5633728 He died in the early nineties. 193 00:19:02,799.5633728 --> 00:19:05,349.5633728 I had a dream about pop-up and he was handing me a cardinal. 194 00:19:06,999.5633728 --> 00:19:08,319.5633728 It was a really pleasant dream for her. 195 00:19:09,169.5633728 --> 00:19:13,339.5633728 She was very close to her dad, and the cardinal was her symbol for my brother. 196 00:19:16,44.5633728 --> 00:19:23,329.5633728 It still chokes me up every time I tell that story, but that was what she was dreaming about and she was gone within, I would say. 197 00:19:24,214.5633728 --> 00:19:26,74.5633728 A week of having had that dream. 198 00:19:27,64.5633728 --> 00:19:33,124.5633728 So on some metaphysical level, she was one foot in, one foot out. 199 00:19:33,634.5633728 --> 00:19:44,74.5633728 I like to think of it, she was communicating and preparing for her transition on a level that like isn't even accessible or observable to any of us. 200 00:19:44,884.5633728 --> 00:19:51,724.5633728 And there's something for me in my own personal practice, my own personal views around death that's so compelling and beautiful about that. 201 00:19:52,909.5633728 --> 00:20:09,919.5633728 It's not everybody's experience and there are people who die in terrible, painful ways, but there are also moments where we find these joyful, funny, memorable moments that can make us feel like there's something bigger at play. 202 00:20:10,624.5633728 --> 00:20:25,174.5633728 How have you seen cultural or generational differences shape the way people approach death? The influence of our culture and our time in which we are existing on this planet, like our generation matters so much. 203 00:20:25,624.5633728 --> 00:20:27,474.5633728 So I think, as we get. 204 00:20:28,59.5633728 --> 00:20:28,599.5633728 More. 205 00:20:28,599.5633728 --> 00:20:33,429.5633728 I think about like things like social media and so the interconnectivity and the instant availability of people. 206 00:20:33,819.5633728 --> 00:20:40,509.5633728 Any place on the planet to you at any time, any piece of information that we've ever known pretty much feels like you could find it on the internet somewhere. 207 00:20:40,809.5633728 --> 00:20:50,949.5633728 I think in some ways people now are more informed about and taking more agency around their choices that have to do with death and dying than they did years ago. 208 00:20:51,739.5633728 --> 00:20:54,589.5633728 I think we're moving toward more death transparency. 209 00:20:55,889.5633728 --> 00:21:02,659.5633728 You'll see this hashtag on social media or maybe you mentioned in the culture about like death positivity, be death positive. 210 00:21:04,9.5633728 --> 00:21:07,309.5633728 I don't love that also because it's a value statement for me. 211 00:21:08,449.5633728 --> 00:21:17,419.5633728 But I love death neutrality, and I love death acceptance, and I love death curiosity, and I love death transparency. 212 00:21:17,869.5633728 --> 00:21:21,139.5633728 I love all these other words that we can maybe substitute in for like positivity. 213 00:21:21,949.5633728 --> 00:21:30,399.5633728 I think we're moving toward a space of better comprehension, a little bit less fear in some ways because we can start to see the inner workings a little bit more. 214 00:21:30,979.5633728 --> 00:21:34,969.5633728 It's like you can see videos of any kind of funeral service. 215 00:21:35,159.5633728 --> 00:21:38,219.5633728 People post selfies next to the casket now. 216 00:21:38,714.5633728 --> 00:21:41,624.5633728 People didn't necessarily do that a hundred years ago. 217 00:21:42,434.5633728 --> 00:21:49,274.5633728 So in some ways the information about death and dying that is available to us is much more accessible than it has ever been. 218 00:21:49,274.5633728 --> 00:21:58,189.5633728 And so maybe that is allaying some people's trepidations and fears around death and dying and empowering them to become more prepared to make these choices for themselves sooner. 219 00:21:58,419.5633728 --> 00:22:00,969.5633728 But on the other hand, we are. 220 00:22:01,344.5633728 --> 00:22:07,854.5633728 Very far removed in a lot of ways from the intimacy of death that used to be part of our experience a hundred years ago. 221 00:22:08,524.5633728 --> 00:22:12,844.5633728 A funeral parlor is called a parlor because the parlor was the room in the home where you laid out the body. 222 00:22:12,844.5633728 --> 00:22:23,429.5633728 When someone died, a hundred years ago and beyond, people died at home and it was largely the women who did the body care and the tending of the dead. 223 00:22:23,429.5633728 --> 00:22:26,759.5633728 Men in the family typically would be the ones digging the plot. 224 00:22:27,419.5633728 --> 00:22:28,529.5633728 Lowering the casket. 225 00:22:28,529.5633728 --> 00:22:30,749.5633728 So there was that separation of responsibilities. 226 00:22:31,169.5633728 --> 00:22:35,999.5633728 However, people cared for their dying and their dad at home, and it was a community event. 227 00:22:36,239.5633728 --> 00:22:42,259.5633728 So people grew up in a culture where death was literally right in front of them. 228 00:22:42,259.5633728 --> 00:22:44,449.5633728 As a child, you weren't rushed out of the room. 229 00:22:44,929.5633728 --> 00:22:47,959.5633728 If someone's dying in the house, you're there for it. 230 00:22:48,349.5633728 --> 00:22:49,939.5633728 And then the body's in the house. 231 00:22:51,4.5633728 --> 00:22:53,824.5633728 You're there for it and then you're going to the funeral and you're there for it. 232 00:22:53,824.5633728 --> 00:22:59,164.5633728 And so in some ways, maybe it's more normalized back then and we know a little bit more about what to expect. 233 00:22:59,194.5633728 --> 00:22:59,884.5633728 'cause we've seen it. 234 00:22:59,884.5633728 --> 00:23:06,964.5633728 We've seen what happens when somebody's body begins to break down and we see what happens to people around us as they're grieving and what's important to them. 235 00:23:07,744.5633728 --> 00:23:08,794.5633728 Maybe we have different. 236 00:23:09,199.5633728 --> 00:23:30,199.5633728 Things we grieve now actually than we did a hundred years ago, because we are removed from it in such a way that it has been pushed into this external industrialized version of death care, where now you have to be licensed and it has to be a business, and there's permitting and there are regulations and there are rules, and it is profitable. 237 00:23:32,269.5633728 --> 00:23:32,959.5633728 That's very different. 238 00:23:33,499.5633728 --> 00:23:37,969.5633728 So it has moved in some ways to becoming more accessible, I think. 239 00:23:38,374.5633728 --> 00:23:54,34.5633728 In the sense of information and working within the systems that are present now, but an opposite effect, I think people are less intimately connected to death and dying because they are not given the opportunity to be with it in the ways that we were when we were taking care of our dead at home. 240 00:23:54,754.5633728 --> 00:24:04,654.5633728 However, in the last few years there has been a big resurgence in desire for and information to share with people around their rights to take care of their dead. 241 00:24:05,764.5633728 --> 00:24:07,444.5633728 People are allowed to die at home. 242 00:24:07,714.5633728 --> 00:24:18,364.5633728 You are allowed to have your loved one's body at home for usually about a couple of days after maybe three max. 243 00:24:18,364.5633728 --> 00:24:21,364.5633728 I wouldn't push it beyond that, and every state's of course different. 244 00:24:21,964.5633728 --> 00:24:25,894.5633728 You can have a home funeral if it is zoned for this. 245 00:24:25,984.5633728 --> 00:24:27,484.5633728 You can bury somebody on your property. 246 00:24:28,864.5633728 --> 00:24:40,744.5633728 In no state in the United States, is it mandatory that you use an outer burial container and someone has to be in a fancy casket to be buried, but because they're private businesses, they get to set their rules. 247 00:24:41,374.5633728 --> 00:24:50,454.5633728 So if for them it is their practice of having the cement vault or outer burial container in the plot, and then the casket gets lowered into that's your choice if you wanna go with that cemetery. 248 00:24:50,964.5633728 --> 00:24:54,324.5633728 But that's not from a federal statutes standpoint, that's not mandated. 249 00:24:54,474.5633728 --> 00:24:55,644.5633728 Nobody has to have that. 250 00:24:56,934.5633728 --> 00:24:59,124.5633728 People don't know because we don't talk about it. 251 00:24:59,574.5633728 --> 00:25:05,784.5633728 And then we show up at the funeral home in acute grief without our logical brain, very accessible to us. 252 00:25:06,264.5633728 --> 00:25:13,794.5633728 And we're looking to people for answers because we didn't do the pre-work of sitting with death beforehand, before it became urgent. 253 00:25:13,863.7805597 --> 00:25:16,293.7805597 I worked as a funeral attendant for a couple of years. 254 00:25:17,433.7805597 --> 00:25:33,743.7805597 I had the opportunity to witness so many different types of funeral services, Buddhist, Hindu latter Day Saints, general Christian Catholic Services Mexican Catholic Services here in the Southwest, right? Mariachi at the graveside. 255 00:25:34,383.7805597 --> 00:25:40,983.7805597 We hosted a Tongan service, so folks showing up in ceremonial dress and performing at graveside. 256 00:25:41,643.7805597 --> 00:25:44,103.7805597 So the Buddhist services monks, seven hours. 257 00:25:44,793.7805597 --> 00:25:47,373.7805597 There are, there's food laid out, there's a table there. 258 00:25:47,403.7805597 --> 00:25:59,143.7805597 There are, there's seating there are candles, there's incense going witness cremations accompanying the body to the retort and being part of the process to, ease someone into their final transition. 259 00:25:59,593.7805597 --> 00:26:01,663.7805597 Orthodox Jewish burials. 260 00:26:02,203.7805597 --> 00:26:05,53.7805597 Muslim burials, the head has to face a particular direction. 261 00:26:05,533.7805597 --> 00:26:08,613.7805597 In an Orthodox Jewish burial, there is a Handwashing station. 262 00:26:08,883.7805597 --> 00:26:14,883.7805597 So there are different it's a rite of passage in a different way for different faith traditions and different cultures. 263 00:26:16,743.7805597 --> 00:26:27,903.7805597 It is fascinating to me to be able to be exposed to them and to learn about them, and I think really no matter what systems we have in place. 264 00:26:29,703.7805597 --> 00:26:36,603.7805597 That director influence how we care for our dying and how we celebrate our dead. 265 00:26:37,773.7805597 --> 00:26:44,133.7805597 I think people always find a way to hold true to the traditions that are most meaningful to them in their culture, in their family, in their community. 266 00:26:44,613.7805597 --> 00:26:45,303.7805597 You find a way. 267 00:26:47,583.7805597 --> 00:26:48,183.7805597 You find a way. 268 00:26:48,993.7805597 --> 00:27:16,848.7805597 The next question of any shifts that you've noticed, or have there been any shifts that you've noticed in how communities are either reclaiming or resisting traditional death care practices? What are you seeing from your position in the work that you do? I think that there is, as I said a move in some circles to refamiliarize themselves with ancestral. 269 00:27:17,238.7805597 --> 00:27:18,498.7805597 Death care practices. 270 00:27:19,68.7805597 --> 00:27:29,568.7805597 So discovering through the roots of your heritage, the heritage of your community, your culture, where you're living as much as like where you come from. 271 00:27:29,668.7805597 --> 00:27:33,208.7805597 So going back to like ancestral traditions is something I see people doing. 272 00:27:33,708.7805597 --> 00:27:38,568.7805597 Part of my heritage is Irish, so for me, investigating those traditions is learning things like. 273 00:27:39,753.7805597 --> 00:27:44,193.7805597 You always open a window so that someone's soul can leave a home. 274 00:27:44,613.7805597 --> 00:27:52,533.7805597 So like discovering things like that and then trying to find ways to then fit that into the systems that are available to us is part of it. 275 00:27:52,533.7805597 --> 00:27:59,903.7805597 So I think people are getting more curious about what people have always done, who are in their line in however way that line is drawn. 276 00:28:00,453.7805597 --> 00:28:03,213.7805597 I think people are becoming more. 277 00:28:03,498.7805597 --> 00:28:06,648.7805597 Interested in the idea of what it could mean to have a home funeral. 278 00:28:07,48.7805597 --> 00:28:11,578.7805597 The National Home Funeral Alliance, national Home. 279 00:28:11,818.7805597 --> 00:28:12,958.7805597 NHFA? Yes. 280 00:28:13,468.7805597 --> 00:28:20,728.7805597 Incredible resource for anybody who wants to know the basics about how to care for someone who has died in your home. 281 00:28:20,728.7805597 --> 00:28:22,228.7805597 How to prepare them for a service. 282 00:28:22,588.7805597 --> 00:28:24,58.7805597 I think more people are getting interested. 283 00:28:24,58.7805597 --> 00:28:26,428.7805597 I don't know that we're gonna see this. 284 00:28:26,788.7805597 --> 00:28:27,808.7805597 Incredible wave. 285 00:28:27,858.7805597 --> 00:28:36,348.7805597 It's gonna shift back to where people really doing this at home, more so than people dying in hospitals and assisted living facilities or under hospice service. 286 00:28:36,348.7805597 --> 00:28:42,768.7805597 And then doing the service at a funeral home, a mortuary, a synagogue, wherever else folks might be wanting, have their services. 287 00:28:43,68.7805597 --> 00:28:46,218.7805597 But I do think it's interesting that folks are trying to figure out what that means. 288 00:28:46,813.7805597 --> 00:28:55,183.7805597 How do you keep a body cool? How do you safely transport someone? What kind of permits do you have to get? What are the zoning regulations? This kind of a thing. 289 00:28:55,303.7805597 --> 00:28:59,113.7805597 And I think also people are getting more interested in more. 290 00:28:59,503.7805597 --> 00:29:02,713.7805597 Eco-friendly or alternative methods of disposition. 291 00:29:02,743.7805597 --> 00:29:06,403.7805597 So I'd mentioned earlier, alkaline hydrolysis or acclamation. 292 00:29:06,973.7805597 --> 00:29:10,213.7805597 Again, every method of disposition is gonna have a consequence. 293 00:29:10,273.7805597 --> 00:29:11,23.7805597 There is an impact. 294 00:29:11,23.7805597 --> 00:29:12,403.7805597 There is no impact free. 295 00:29:12,553.7805597 --> 00:29:17,323.7805597 Even if you put a body into the ground, it has an effect, right? It has an effect by its decomposition. 296 00:29:17,653.7805597 --> 00:29:22,453.7805597 Choosing things that feel more environmentally sustainable is becoming more and more important to certain people. 297 00:29:22,503.7805597 --> 00:29:33,333.7805597 Maybe they don't want to be put into a cement vault in a $15,000 casket that's lacquered and has a bunch of non biodegradable materials in it. 298 00:29:34,83.7805597 --> 00:29:35,493.7805597 Maybe that doesn't feel right for them. 299 00:29:35,943.7805597 --> 00:29:39,843.7805597 Maybe they'd rather move towards, say, a wicker casket that can go into. 300 00:29:40,308.7805597 --> 00:29:44,838.7805597 Maybe it still has to go into the vault, but at least they're taking one piece out that feels less sustainable to them. 301 00:29:45,198.7805597 --> 00:29:47,298.7805597 Maybe they're moving toward natural organic reduction. 302 00:29:47,568.7805597 --> 00:29:56,328.7805597 This is only legal in a handful of states, although those states will work with you, funeral homes will work with you for transportation permits to move the body to their facilities for processing. 303 00:29:56,328.7805597 --> 00:30:12,148.7805597 But in those places you're not having the release of toxicity through flame cremation I think people are getting motivated to learn more about the consequences of these disposition options and then choosing the one that feels most comfortable for them and for their families. 304 00:30:12,998.7805597 --> 00:30:18,638.7805597 And then I think also just the idea of the doula is gaining a lot more traction. 305 00:30:18,998.7805597 --> 00:30:23,198.7805597 Again, this is something that people have been doing for one another since the dawn of time. 306 00:30:24,488.7805597 --> 00:30:37,268.7805597 It is my hope that people become more educated about what it means to be with someone who's dying, not so that they can go out and hang a shingle and run a business and make a buck off of it, although that's acceptable too. 307 00:30:37,398.7805597 --> 00:30:45,648.7805597 I also have a private practice as well as volunteer, as well as companion people who are close to me, but I would love for people to feel more comfortable. 308 00:30:46,848.7805597 --> 00:30:57,738.7805597 When someone is dying in their home, that they feel confident that they can show up with this spirit and this education, and this knowledge that doulas carry in a really developed way to bedside. 309 00:30:58,288.7805597 --> 00:31:00,418.7805597 I'd love, I like a trend. 310 00:31:00,418.7805597 --> 00:31:12,538.7805597 I would love to see, this is not a question you asked, but a trend that I would like to see would be people embracing their relationship with death as it appears in their lives. 311 00:31:14,408.7805597 --> 00:31:18,148.7805597 By just sitting through the struggle of resistance. 312 00:31:19,78.7805597 --> 00:31:35,988.7805597 When you know that someone has been diagnosed with a terminal illness and they are in decline, resisting your resistance to going to visit them because you're afraid of what the body's gonna look like or sound or smell or how that person might be or not be behaving or responding. 313 00:31:36,843.7805597 --> 00:31:45,333.7805597 People often wait until the very last minute and then they miss the opportunity to have a cogent conversation with someone because we're so afraid of death. 314 00:31:45,333.7805597 --> 00:31:48,723.7805597 Moon, don't even wanna look at somebody who's not even dead yet, but is gonna be soon. 315 00:31:49,473.7805597 --> 00:31:51,153.7805597 So that's a way to do it. 316 00:31:51,653.7805597 --> 00:31:52,913.7805597 If you feel so moved. 317 00:31:53,723.7805597 --> 00:31:56,993.7805597 Maybe doing some volunteering with your local hospice organization. 318 00:31:57,23.7805597 --> 00:32:00,803.7805597 Be of service, be around people who are dying, who aren't related to you. 319 00:32:00,803.7805597 --> 00:32:03,713.7805597 That's another way to maybe get a little bit more comfort and familiarity. 320 00:32:03,713.7805597 --> 00:32:06,383.7805597 Just be around folks who are aging and dying. 321 00:32:06,833.7805597 --> 00:32:17,123.7805597 And then I think just starting to think about what that might mean for you, and then observing the transitions that are already occurring around you on a daily basis. 322 00:32:18,353.7805597 --> 00:32:19,883.7805597 So treating death more like. 323 00:32:20,603.7805597 --> 00:32:29,543.7805597 If not a friend, an expected visitor, rather than this event to run from, or this like nefarious villain who's out to get you. 324 00:32:30,143.7805597 --> 00:32:35,803.7805597 I would love to see people be more welcoming or at least open to the idea that this is going to happen. 325 00:32:37,33.7805597 --> 00:32:39,183.7805597 So why not befriend it if you can. 326 00:32:39,993.7805597 --> 00:32:44,493.7805597 The depth that you have and your ability to share your work is. 327 00:32:45,168.7805597 --> 00:32:45,978.7805597 Outstanding. 328 00:32:46,98.7805597 --> 00:32:47,628.7805597 Like it's really beautiful. 329 00:32:47,778.7805597 --> 00:32:49,788.7805597 And you've changed me today. 330 00:32:50,838.7805597 --> 00:32:57,588.7805597 Thank you so much for the opportunity to share my passion and to have influenced the way that you think about this. 331 00:32:57,638.7805597 --> 00:33:00,918.7805597 I have a colleague who likes to say, if one person shows up, it's enough. 332 00:33:02,898.7805597 --> 00:33:19,948.7805597 And we forget that sometimes when we're doing a talk or being on a podcast or leading a class or trying to put on a community workshop, we think it's a failure If one person shows, like we have to have masses of people show up in order for it to be like successful or worth it. 333 00:33:20,518.7805597 --> 00:33:24,418.7805597 But when it comes to death and dying, one conversation, if that. 334 00:33:24,808.7805597 --> 00:33:25,378.7805597 Shifts. 335 00:33:25,378.7805597 --> 00:33:27,868.7805597 Someone's thinking one degree. 336 00:33:29,458.7805597 --> 00:33:31,978.7805597 Who knows where that ripple effect goes, and that's enough. 337 00:33:32,38.7805597 --> 00:33:34,348.7805597 So every time I get to talk about this, it's enough. 338 00:33:34,378.7805597 --> 00:33:37,618.7805597 I'm satisfied with the way that I'm showing up in the world around this work. 339 00:33:38,668.7805597 --> 00:33:47,818.7805597 I think one thing I would like to emphasize that I didn't mention earlier when we were talking about the difference between what doulas offer and what hospice offers. 340 00:33:48,388.7805597 --> 00:34:00,148.7805597 Doulas work with all kinds of death, not only hospice, so hospice workers are working with people who have a life expectancy of six months or fewer if the disease progresses at the established rate. 341 00:34:00,148.7805597 --> 00:34:04,288.7805597 That's like the Pat Medical Medicare eligibility definition. 342 00:34:04,918.7805597 --> 00:34:06,418.7805597 Doulas can work with you. 343 00:34:07,228.7805597 --> 00:34:17,788.7805597 From the time you have agency over your own body, so let's say you're decisional and 18 years old, we can help you walk through the beginnings, the bare bones of what it looks like to be prepared for your own death. 344 00:34:18,118.7805597 --> 00:34:23,308.7805597 We can walk with you as you are accompanying somebody else in their death. 345 00:34:23,308.7805597 --> 00:34:27,928.7805597 I have had many clients who have been partners or children of the dying person. 346 00:34:28,558.7805597 --> 00:34:29,488.7805597 Not the dying person. 347 00:34:29,728.7805597 --> 00:34:32,638.7805597 They don't want the doula, but the person who's with them does. 348 00:34:33,448.7805597 --> 00:34:37,318.7805597 So doulas are available to the people who are not dying in that moment. 349 00:34:37,648.7805597 --> 00:34:40,528.7805597 We are available to people who experience sudden death. 350 00:34:41,218.7805597 --> 00:35:00,363.7805597 So if you experience a loss that is tragic, violent, unexpected, whether it's a heart attack, it's war, it's a murder, it's death by suicide, a sudden illness, we can be there to walk with you in your circle to help look at what is ahead and what that means for you. 351 00:35:01,98.7805597 --> 00:35:05,598.7805597 We can be with people at any stage of life to think about their death. 352 00:35:05,868.7805597 --> 00:35:12,168.7805597 Auspice is limited in its time period, and it has to have, some things associated with it. 353 00:35:12,168.7805597 --> 00:35:20,178.7805597 But doulas can work anywhere that death shows up, which is everywhere, including helping people to address their fear and anxiety. 354 00:35:20,598.7805597 --> 00:35:34,28.7805597 I think it's important for people to know that, we say end of life doula, or we say death doula, but it really is not limited to just when you're, when the clock is ticking and you're in the final stretch of the road, it really is at any time. 355 00:35:34,208.7805597 --> 00:35:50,678.7805597 Thank you so much for your wisdom and your words, and I really do believe that you're gonna help a lot of people get past whatever fear they might have when it comes to dying and death. 356 00:35:51,983.7805597 --> 00:35:54,713.7805597 I'm so glad to have been able to be in conversation with you. 357 00:35:54,763.7805597 --> 00:36:05,383.7805597 It feels so easy and natural for me to talk about death and dying and to be able to be in a conversation that also felt free and easy and full of curiosity. 358 00:36:05,623.7805597 --> 00:36:07,303.7805597 Just really, it just, it. 359 00:36:08,83.7805597 --> 00:36:09,853.7805597 It just juices me up so much. 360 00:36:09,853.7805597 --> 00:36:21,463.7805597 It brings me so much joy and so much fulfillment to awaken people to different ways of thinking about death and dying that are not the ways that we're told necessarily that we should be perceiving it. 361 00:36:21,883.7805597 --> 00:36:31,148.7805597 If people want more perspective shifting from you, where can they find you? I would love to point people to my website, which is knight rose death care.com. 362 00:36:31,818.7805597 --> 00:36:36,498.7805597 I'm available for consultation for services. 363 00:36:36,768.7805597 --> 00:36:42,468.7805597 I'm also a celebrant, so I do help people with planning services after a loved one has died. 364 00:36:42,498.7805597 --> 00:36:45,328.7805597 Those things are separate but also available. 365 00:36:45,688.7805597 --> 00:36:54,868.7805597 There are lots of resources for the partnerships that I participate in, the alliances and the communities that I've built more about my own background, my trainings, my proficiencies, all of those things. 366 00:36:54,868.7805597 --> 00:37:00,718.7805597 So if you're curious to know more about me or to know more about the kind of services that I provide, that's a great place to start. 367 00:37:01,108.7805597 --> 00:37:02,218.7805597 Amazing, thank you. 368 00:37:03,13.7805597 --> 00:37:03,823.7805597 So much. 369 00:37:03,823.7805597 --> 00:37:04,753.7805597 You are a gift. 370 00:37:05,293.7805597 --> 00:37:06,523.7805597 Thank you so much. 371 00:37:11,440.0261674 --> 00:37:11,800.0261674 Whew. 372 00:37:13,840.0261674 --> 00:37:21,640.0261674 Talk about a perspective shift, huh? So as we close out this practical lens on death, I wanna leave you with this. 373 00:37:22,90.0261674 --> 00:37:34,795.0261674 If we can be present at death the way we are at birth with softness, awe, and maybe even celebration, how might that shift the way we live? Next week we're gonna sit down with Joél Maldonado, also known as the Grave Woman. 374 00:37:35,395.0261674 --> 00:37:40,135.0261674 She's a mortician and she's gonna walk us through the science traditions and historical truths of death care. 375 00:37:40,975.0261674 --> 00:37:48,115.0261674 So if you've ever been curious about embalming, decomposition, or why death has been so sanitized in the modern world, you won't wanna miss it. 376 00:37:48,745.0261674 --> 00:37:52,795.0261674 And if you like this episode and wanna hear more, don't forget to like, share, and follow. 377 00:37:53,635.0261674 --> 00:37:56,425.0261674 This is the Hanged Woman Podcast, where perspective is power. 378 00:37:57,55.0261674 --> 00:37:59,245.0261674 Until next time, hang in there.
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