October 9, 2025 • 36 mins
This is the 2nd Interview in my Music Theory Interview Series and it is with a good friend that goes by ZLEE. We discuss Growing up, learning music as a kid, developing into a Songwriter and Composer, and many other music theory related topics. ZLEE offers advice on developing young people in music, how and why music theory is vital to every musician, the pros and cons of studying music theory, and he offers many anecdotes on the subject.
If you want to check out the music of ZLEE go here:
Linear Music Theory Learning For Everyone!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
That was a snippet from a tune called Crooked Atoms
by my good friend and artistthat goes by the name Zlee.
Welcome back to the HarmoniousBlacksmith, everybody.
I am your host, Kevin PatrickFleming, and today I have a
(00:52):
wonderful music theory interviewwith an artist, and you are not
gonna want to miss this.
So without further ado, let's dothe interview.
So here we are on episode 24 ofThe Harmonious Blacksmith, and
this is the second interview inmy series of music theory
interviews, and I have a veryspecial guest with me today, an
(01:16):
old friend, a fabulous musician,a fabulous composer, songwriter,
and musician.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome,Zlee.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Thanks.
Thanks, man.
That's like the nicest intro Ithink I've ever gotten.
SPEAKER_02 (01:39):
They love you.
You're an instant hit.
So, Zlee, thank you so much forbeing on episode 24 of the
Harmonious Blacks.
How are we doing this morning?
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
I'm doing well, man.
How are you doing?
And thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:51):
I'm doing great, man.
Yeah, absolutely, man.
I'm so glad that you're on theshow.
Thank you for the time, sir.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
I love your podcast.
Longtime listener, first timecaller.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Thank you.
Thank you, my friend.
That's so awesome.
And look, just so y'all know alittle bit of history, uh, me
and my friend Z Lee here.
By the way, that's Z-L-E-E.
That's what he goes by.
And he has been a friend of minefor many decades, actually.
We went to high school together,and we have kept up over the
(02:24):
years because not only the bondof friendship, absolutely yes,
but also that friendship startedthrough the bond of music.
So, Zlee, I want to ask you afew questions to start.
Let's start with this.
Tell us your background.
Where were you born?
Where did you grow up?
And what was life generally likegrowing up for you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
I have been in this area for my whole life.
So, uh, like you said, you and Ihave been playing music together
a very, very long time.
I think I think I've known youfor uh several decades at this
point, and uh so I have beenJust go ahead and date us.
Yeah, I know.
Um I I have been in the uhAtlanta area my whole life, um
(03:10):
really out in the burbs, and umgrowing up in that area was like
I think a very typical suburban,you know, life growing up.
And uh I kind of uh started toget into music when I, you know,
was when when really when grungewas coming out, you know, which
is again dating us.
So um music music.
(03:32):
So the nineties?
Right, early nineties.
Uh so music was like a hugething at that time and it
grabbed me up, man.
So so yeah, uh my family stilllives in this area.
Um my uh I'm just and I havelike grown up, gotten married,
had a family, stayed in thisarea, and am continuing to just
(03:55):
obsess about music in my sparetime.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
And that's wonderful, and that's why you're
here, and that's why we'reinterested in what you have to
say.
So, sounds like you're asouthern boy through and
through, born right here in thesouthern US, and that's
wonderful.
So let me tell let me ask youthis.
Um, what about what age did yourinterest in music get sparked?
(04:21):
And if you can recall, what wasit exactly that did that for
you?
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah, man.
I mean, you know, I I I havememories, vivid memories of
being a kid and riding around inin the car with my parents, and
my dad always listened toMotown.
Um, my mom was always listeningto whatever.
I I can picture myself in theearly 80s riding around in her
cutlass.
I don't know.
I mean, does anyone know what acutlass even is, right?
(04:48):
Um I do.
I had a I had a hand-me-downOldsmobile cutlass.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
You did.
SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
Oh, that's amazing.
I don't even think I knew that.
Um so and you know, listening touh all kinds of whatever country
radio was on, or you know, uheasy listening from the late
70s.
So, but but really I didn'tdevelop my own musical interest
and taste probably until earlymiddle school in in our area.
(05:14):
That's uh basically like sixthgrade.
So I was like 12 years old in1991.
There, I'm there, I'm reallydating myself specifically, but
yes, you do.
You know, um, that is the yearuh that Metallica released their
black album and Guns N' Rosesreleased Use Your Illusion one
and two, right?
And like all of all of us hadthose albums, but what also came
(05:36):
out that year was was Pearl Jamand Nirvana and the Red Hot
Chili Peppers, you know, BloodSugar Sex Magic, right?
And so yeah, I think for me,like that's really what grabbed
my attention.
I mean, I remember listening toEddie Vedder and thinking, man,
he doesn't sing like anyone I'veever heard before, but I really
like it.
Uh, and I wasn't sure why.
(05:57):
And I feel like that's how a lotof music is for me.
Like, you know, I like it andI'm not sure why.
Start is how things get started.
SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
So yeah, no, that's fantastic.
You mentioned uh red hot chilipeppers, blood sugar, sex magic.
That brought me back to justremembering when I was mowing my
parents' lawn in middle schooland and having a Walkman on my
hip with a cassette tape ofBlood Sugar Sex Magic by Red Hot
Chili Peppers.
(06:24):
Absolutely.
And just and that was just aphenomenal music.
I mean, it still is, it's itstood the test of time, but we
we were definitely influenced bythat time period, um for sure.
So at what point in your in yourdevelopment or or just growing
up in general, did you decidethat you wanted to actually
participate and play music?
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Um, well, that's a great question.
Um, so kind of the same guy whouh a friend of mine who lived in
the neighborhood right acrossthe street.
He he had like older siblings,right?
And I was the oldest child, sowhen you're the oldest or the
only, you know, you don't andyou don't have any influences to
like hand you a cassette tape ora CD or send you the current
(07:07):
streaming uh you know link orwhatever.
Right.
Um it's hard to find stuff whenyou are uh when you're like in
that situation.
And so uh a friend of mineacross the street, he had some
of those older siblings andstuff, and basically uh is is
one of the reasons I kind of gotinto like metal and punk early
(07:30):
on and then grunge right therealongside it.
Um and he actually was the sameone who's like, dude, we should
like learn to play instruments,and he really wanted to play
bass.
And uh I said, Well, I don'tknow how and I don't know
anything about playing music,you know.
I'm like again 12 or 13 yearsold.
So I think I bought like a$75drum set and uh began he and I
(07:55):
began like drum and bass,torturing my family uh in the in
our basement, you know, uh thatsummer, uh trying to play
Credence Clearwater Revivalsongs.
And uh but but yeah, I mean,pretty pretty early on.
I mean, drums were to mesomething that happened um that
that were easy to pick up, and Iguess easy easy to pick up
(08:18):
because I had like enough rhythmfor it to organically happen.
I feel like a lot of instrumentsare that way for you know,
sometimes you just hand a kid aninstrument and they're like, oh,
this is terrible, but then theypick up another one and they're
like, Oh, I love this.
And I that was kind of how itwas for me as a drummer.
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
So no, absolutely, and that's that's wonderful
advice, um, especially since Iknow that you have two kids that
are coming up now, and one ofwhich I know is playing music,
and another that may.
Yeah, and you know, it's it'swonderful advice coming from a
father and a family man to forother people in their families
about what to do with their kidsbecause parents definitely
(08:56):
understand that music isimportant for children growing
up and their development.
Would you say that as well?
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
Oh man, absolutely.
I mean, it's it's not onlypersonally for me, it's given me
so much pleasure, but also likerelationships with other people.
You know, uh my son has kind offollowed my trajectory and that
he does a lot of uh musicproduction alone, you know, like
(09:22):
in the bedroom, working on adigital audio workstation on his
on his laptop, you know, and sowe both do a lot of that stuff.
But um all of all of his friendswere in the band in high school,
and I think that's one thing hekind of sort of realizes, man, I
really wish that I had you knowfollowed through playing the
tuba in middle school and stuckwith it in high school and like
(09:44):
you know, had had uh some ofthose band uh moments that those
guys had.
But he was a good example of onewhere we didn't do a good job of
being like, okay, so you don'tlove the tuba, let's find
another instrument, you know.
Um so I I think it's reallyimportant to not only like you
know make music important aspart of growing up, but also
(10:04):
make sure that people feelconfident learning how to
express themselves on you knowdifferent instruments and
finding one that really fits forthem.
SPEAKER_02 (10:14):
That is very well put, yeah, and that's wonderful
advice for parents out there,especially parents who have
really young kids and theyreally are interested in when to
get them started and how to getthem started and things like
that.
So that's those are fantasticnuggets.
Thank you for that.
Nice, thank you.
Um so if y'all couldn't tell bynow, based on Zlee's story
(10:38):
there, he is a percussionist bynature, a drummer, but he also
plays other instruments.
So can you also tell ouraudience just what other
instruments you play and youknow maybe about your
songwriting a little?
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Yeah, man, absolutely.
So, um, and and I shouldprobably like couch all of this
to say that I am very much anamateur musician, right?
And so that's okay.
We welcome that here.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
We totally welcome that here.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
If any of your listeners click on anything, the
find my music, you will findthat it is very straightforward,
really simple.
I I just like songs.
And so for me, starting out as adrummer, um, and I I took very
little formal instruction of ofplaying, but I had some, you
know, great drums are one ofthose things where you can put
(11:27):
on some headphones and bangalong, and and and so much of it
is feel, uh, very little theory,very heavy on on feel.
Then you start to realize thatyour technique gaps are a real
problem, right?
But um I did enjoy just the feelof drumming and the feel of
rhythm so much, but I got to apoint um, you know, really after
(11:49):
my son was born, um, that I waslike, you know, I can't really
bang loudly around the houseanymore.
And uh and and I just imaginethat.
Right.
And I just had a little bit ofan appetite for expressing uh I
I've I mean, you know, you andI've played music together for a
long time.
I was not a principal songwriterin that band, you know, and or
(12:10):
or ever.
Um, but I've always had a lot oflike song ideas, and so I did
pick up enough guitar basicallyto play chords, right?
Um, and and that was uhsomething that percolated really
like slowly while my kids werereally young.
And um, but it was a a lot ofthat for me was just about
learning how to write music, uh,how to uh craft song, take words
(12:37):
and turn, you know, words andpoetry, turn them into lyrics
and and have that turn itconvert into melody, you know,
and and have that melody fitwith chords.
So I learned a lot about chordprogressions and how melody can
be uh an enhancement to chordprogressions and vice versa.
And then and then it's and thenat some point, you know, in the
last uh, I don't know, it'sprobably five or six years or
(12:59):
so, I kind of realized thatlike, you know, piano is a
different, it's like a differentlens.
It's like when you're playing uha guitar and and you're thinking
about chords and chord shapesthrough guitar, and then you sit
down and and you play with pianochords and triads or whatever on
a piano, and then you you it'sso easy to invert a chord on a
(13:22):
piano, you know.
Yes, so that was so true, right?
That was like a huge epiphanyfor me.
So so long story short, longstory short, I play uh a I play
drums very confidently, althoughI would not say I'm anywhere
near expert, but I I have a lotof muscle memory.
Um I play enough rhythm acousticguitar to be dangerous, and I
(13:44):
play just a little bit of piano,a little even less of maybe
mandolin, and at the end of theday, I just have channeled all
of that into songwriting.
So um, you're asking about mymusic, uh, so Z-L-E-E has become
my kind of like uh my artistname for lack of a better word,
but uh that uh the songwritingapproach there is just purely
(14:07):
about uh uh trying to capturefeelings and ideas, you know?
So I don't have like anyparticular any mission or any
kind of like uh it's not likeI'm writing lots of songs about
love or lots of songs about youknow other topics.
It's and you'll you when youlisten to any of the words,
you're like, what exactly is hetrying to say there?
(14:27):
So I'm I'm probably a littleeffusive, but for me it is just
this I'm like a middle-aged dudewho really enjoys the hobby of
pouring myself into makingsomething, and and this has been
a lot of fun for me.
So that was a very long-windedanswer to your question, but
that's that's kind of how I gotfrom there to here.
SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
That's okay.
We we love details and we acceptthem as such.
No, that's wonderful.
I'm always interested in, youknow, the critical decisions
about, you know, you werepercussionist, it's fairly
straightforward, you learnthings by feel, eventually you
pick up a guitar, you startlearning some chording and
understand, start to understandbasic as we go into our
(15:08):
discussion about how you usemusic theory here, you start to
go into some basic components ofunderstanding really naturally,
kind of intrinsically, becauseyou're like, Well, how does this
work?
And how does this work if I'mgonna play these instruments?
And you know, I love what yousaid about piano.
So, all my listeners out there,you you totally corroborated all
(15:30):
the information I've been givingthem so far in in previous
episodes about how important itis to just understand a keyboard
and how it works and how thatfilters into how you understand
chording and like you said,chord inversions that get
flipped.
And of course, I've done a lotof episodes on that with bass
lines and things.
(15:50):
Yes, and um, so all of that wasreally good information.
So let me let me flip to thisnow.
At what point were your earsopen to the fact that music
theory was a thing and that itcould help you in your
endeavors?
At what point did you discovermusic theory?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Um, you know, I I think especially kind of coming
to music through something likepunk rock and grunge, which was
just not particularly musical inthe classical sort of sense, I I
didn't really pay any attentionto it.
And then by the time you and Iwere playing music together, uh,
you know, I was but a aminimally capable drummer uh and
(16:32):
not the only drummer in theband, right?
And the so I I was probably theleast musical of the group, so
it's kind of interesting tothink about that.
Um, you know, I I don't think Iunderstood anything about music
theory before then.
I I don't even think I'd Iprobably heard the words until
not at all, man.
And I mean when I think about uhyou and our friend Drew uh
(16:56):
listening to y'all talk aboutharmony, and and you would I
remember a moment where you'relike, uh no man, you're you're
singing an octave.
I need you to sing a fifth orsomething like that.
And I'm I'm sitting therethinking to myself, what exactly
is he talking about?
So I I really think that, and Idon't even think that was enough
to make well, I mean, back then,frankly, you couldn't go home
and Google it.
(17:17):
I was about to say, I don't eventhink that was enough to make me
Google it, but there was noGoogle.
Yeah, just date us there again.
SPEAKER_02 (17:22):
Just pigeon pigeonhole us as middle-aged old
farts or whatever.
I'm sorry, I keep doing that.
That's fine.
Yes, no, no, no.
That's I I actually think it'sfunny.
It's okay for everybody to knowthat's really because guess
what?
Wisdom cannot be fake.
No people.
That's true, man.
We've you can take that or leavethat.
We've come by it honestly.
Wisdom, we've come by ithonestly.
(17:42):
I love that.
All right, so originally youwere percussionist, and it just
never really occurred to you.
And so, what at what point didit occur to you like, hey, this
is interesting and I want tounderstand it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I mentionedlike going from playing drums to
playing guitar.
And when I say playing guitar, Imean I'm like literally uh apps
on my phone to show me chordshapes.
Uh, you know.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
And so And people do that.
I mean, that's what that's whatpeople are doing.
It's either YouTube videos orthat, or you know, they're
looking at reels on certainsocial media sites where they
just get snippets of stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Well, and I it's I mean, it's everything's very
democratized now, right?
I mean, even songwriting andright making music, the fact
that I can do it in my bedroom,it's like everybody has access
to it.
So kind of going back to yourearlier thing about parenting
and and having kids, it's likethere are so many ways that a
kid can get what they needmusically to kind of make
progress and momentum.
(18:45):
And uh oftentimes as a parent,like the best thing you can do
is really just continue toencourage it and make it a
priority and show them thingsand so on.
But um, anyway, music theory wasnot that's wonderful.
Yeah, music theory was notsomething at all that was like
on the radar for me, and then Iknew uh as I started playing
guitar, I really think themoment that it clicked for me
(19:06):
that I needed to know theinformation was when I got a
capo.
And and you know that'sinteresting, right?
And I'm like, oh, I'm playing ina different key now, I can play
the exact same shapes.
You mean I can play uh, youknow, a C, a D minor, an E
minor, a G, uh, and you know,like the basic cowboy chords
(19:30):
that you can learn.
Um, and now I can play all ofthose and I'm suddenly playing
in the key of F, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
And um Yeah, and just to pause for a second
because um for anybody in theaudience out there that doesn't
know what he's talking aboutwith a capo, he's speaking of a
tool that we use on reallymainly guitar, but other fretted
instruments where you're able toslap it on the neck and move it
(19:56):
around in order to change thekey of the instrument without
having to change the shapes ofthe cord.
Absolutely.
So you can make the instrumenthigher, you can make it
generally.
I mean, a capo makes aninstrument higher, obviously.
So you put it on there and youraise the key to a different
level.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, and I think that was it for me.
And and that probably is why myappetite for like seeing the
piano keyboard makes is similarbecause it's the same sort of
it's like patterns, right?
You know, the patterns that thesure the shapes and patterns you
can make with your hands on apiano or a guitar, you move them
up and down the fretboard orkeyboard, and it translates
(20:35):
generally very, very similarly.
And so I think once I realizedthat that uh it's not that I
felt like I had unlocked likethe key to doing it, it was more
so the realization that like,oh, I need to understand what
I'm doing.
Like, I don't, you know, I don'tknow that I'm actually by using
(20:55):
this device, I don't know thatI'm actually moving into the the
the correct chords for the keythat I think I'm playing in,
right?
And so really feeling that likeappetite for like, oh, I may be
actually doing something stupid,and or I'm or I would hear
something and say, that doesn'tquite sound right, but I can't
say why.
(21:15):
And it bothered me that Icouldn't say why.
And so I think that was reallywhat what sort of lit the fire
for me.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
Oh wow, that's very interesting.
So you definitely got to a pointwhere you went down the rabbit
hole of questions at some pointwhen you started and really, I
mean, I guess that started whenyou really started playing
guitar.
So, what so I was recentlyhaving a conversation with a
young budding musician who has alot of promise, and I was
(21:43):
talking about you know how theylearn and lessons and things
like that.
And one of my questions came in,well, are you learning any music
theory?
And he said, No, I just doeverything by ear, I don't
really need any music theory.
So, my question to you would beWhat advice can you give to
especially young folks liketeenagers, early 20s, people who
(22:05):
are just up and coming in musicand are playing an instrument by
ear?
Um, what how can you can yougive them advice on how
important music theory is totheir development of music or
lack thereof?
I mean, in other words, feelfree to give your opinion on
both sides.
(22:25):
I mean that earnestly.
In other words, hey, you can dothis much without it, but you in
the end, you're gonna want thismuch, you know.
So however you want to framethat, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
I I love I I yeah, if I were if someone were to say
that to me, I'm sitting heretrying to decide how would I
answer, how would I respond tothat?
Because really, my my path todoing what I do is um is really
like organic, you know.
Like I am one, I am not ascholar in any form.
(23:01):
Um, and but two, I'm also not areal accomplished performer.
And I know some people like Mr.
Kevin Patrick Fleming, who iswho are, you know, very, very
proficient uh on both subjects,right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
And so um I am I I wear that amateur badge really
uh really boldly, but I did andthat again, we're you know,
we're I I I want to pause tojust point that out to my
audience that that's part of thereason that you're on here
because I want you all to knowthose Lee is one of my very best
(23:36):
friends in the world, and he'salso more talented than his
humbleness will come off here.
Um he also is uh he's a familyman, he's a career man, and you
know, he has those things thatoccupy his life, and music has
really always been a passion.
He was always gonna do it.
(23:58):
Um it just does it in at youknow on the side.
And I I think most people thatare gonna listen to my program
are gonna be like that.
So I think I think they're veryinterested in that.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
No, totally agree with you.
And I was just gonna say, Imean, thank you for your kind
words, obviously, but like Ithink um that's kind of where I
was going just now was like theidea that um people who aren't
scholars of this subject and whoare just like curious, you know,
and they're hungry and they'recurious, that's really where I
(24:31):
was.
And so I think the going back tothe person, um, you know, not
approaching this from ascholarly place, approaching
this from kind of like thepractical place.
I mean, really, I I practicallyhave learned music theory not so
much so that I could be a betterperformer or player of an
instrument, but so that I couldwrite more interesting
(24:51):
compositions, you know, anddoing so doing so on a keyboard,
like programming, right?
I mean, I'm uh I mean, I knowyou're not getting on your show
a lot into like topics of MIDIand quantizing and you know,
things like that in in indigital audio, right?
But um, but but so so I came tothat space really with theory
(25:12):
because I realized, oh, I'mwriting things that are pretty
weak sauce, you know, likethey're they're not actually
like I actually cannot expressmyself enough without knowing
more.
Yeah.
And so it's like I got to a sothat the the person who said,
Hey, I'm doing I do it by ear,I'm like, I actually was kind of
(25:34):
doing the same.
And I would say, what note arethey playing?
And I'm like, oh, I canreplicate that, right?
And so, um sure, and and in somecases I could uh I could fumble
my way into something cool.
To me, it's the difference, andand perhaps I know there are
unquestionably people in theworld who who can do it by ear
and can do so elegantly by ear,but I'm not one of them.
(25:57):
And so for me, what that endedup looking like was at best, I
stumbled on something cool, andat worst, I got stuck.
And so for me personally, Irealized like in order for me
not to get stuck, I need tolearn a little bit more about
the craft of of how you know I'musing this chord progression.
(26:18):
What what where could I take it?
Um, I might fumble my way onto acool opportunity or place to go
next, but also like let me thinkabout that.
What notes are in this?
And maybe I want to change thekey, and um, you know, what what
does the seventh in the scalepotentially get me if I were to
(26:39):
move to that note?
And it it helps you experiment,I think, in a way that opens
doors.
Um at least coming at it fromthe angle that I've came at it.
So yeah, anyway, I guess that'sthat's kind of my hot take.
SPEAKER_02 (26:53):
Yeah, that's really good.
That that's actually a reallygood take.
Um, I like that.
So, as you know, our listenerscan tell, one of your main
focuses now is songwriting,which you know we love.
People are very interested inthat.
And even though, you know, I'm asongwriter, but I don't really
consider myself like I'm not asuperior songwriter.
(27:14):
Like, I read it stuff here andthere, um, but not as much
anymore.
So I would say you're definitelya bit more prolific than me
these days, which is great.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
Or or I mean, I actually I was just gonna
respond to your comment aboutthe prolific.
I mean, yeah, sure.
To to me, yeah, go ahead.
To to me, uh uh and I've heardsome of your songs, and you are
a great songwriter.
Um, right.
And so but but prolific is theoperative word because for me
it's become it's become a realoutlet, you know.
It's like, and I have ideas justkicking.
(27:47):
I take notes of obsessively onon lyrical ideas, you know.
Um I I think that's one of thereally cool parts about living
in the day and age that we livein.
It's like I can capture anyidea.
You know, idea capture is soeasy.
SPEAKER_02 (28:04):
Um having technology is fun these days.
SPEAKER_00 (28:08):
It's insane.
I mean, just having an iPhone,it's insane.
If you I mean, I'm sure I knowlots of different phone
companies work this way, buthaving garage band in my pocket
to tap out a melody on akeyboard, having the ability to
record myself while I'm driving,if I have like an idea, I you I
mean, one day my family is goingto dig through the archive of my
(28:28):
ridiculous snippets of audio andlike notes, and they're gonna
make this this guy was insane.
But um, prolific is probably theright word because uh I kind of
obsessively use my energy topull those into like reasonably
coherent things.
I I just for some reason it hasbeen like a great kick, and uh
in like the post-pandemic world,it's just really filled my cup
(28:50):
in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Yeah, and that's great.
And I think you know, you'redefinitely not alone.
I think um, especially betweenthe advancement of technology as
you were speaking of, and alsothe times like COVID in 2020,
and the fact that really peoplehad to really were forced to
make a jump through technology,and I think also because people
(29:14):
were, you know, had the ultimatecabin fever at that time that
people were going into the holeusing technology to, you know,
hey, let's go record some music,you know, let me go play some
music, record it, let's do someexperimenting, we've had the
time, there's no work today,yeah, things like that.
Um, even if you did have workthat day, but you know what I'm
(29:34):
saying, like things weredifferent.
So, based on your answer, um, itsounds like to me, you feel like
with music theory that if youlearn by ear, which is great,
because we know ear is ournumber one asset, but if you
learn by ear, you at some pointwill almost inevitably hit some
form of a ceiling or a wall ofunderstanding.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
I think so.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Where you need to I th I would Agree, and that's why
I wanted to hit on this.
So basically, your advice forpeople out there is you know, if
you get so far with your ear andyou're hitting walls and
ceilings, you know, and let'ssay you hated music theory.
Well, guess what?
It might be your next adventure.
You just have to find a way toease into it.
(30:18):
You might find you love it morethan you think, right?
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
I think so, man.
And I and I, you know, the way Iwould uh like maybe the metaphor
or the example I would use is isabout singing.
And I am not a great singer.
Um, I enjoy singing.
Me neither.
I enjoy singing.
Um, I'm I'm not a great singer.
You are someone though who umknows how to harmonize and hit a
note, and I really can't.
(30:41):
So my ear has a limitation inthat way, and that's a great, I
think, tie back to the questionfrom your student.
Like, my ear could only get meso far.
I really had to sit down infront of a keyboard and start
listening for intervals, and andyou know, and like you used in
an earlier podcast talking aboutuh, you know, pop culture
(31:02):
examples, like for for me, Jawswas the the great example, or
Star Wars, you know, some ofthose where I'm like, ah yes,
now I can now I can always hearit and I can almost sing it.
So I think without that likefocus on the theory and the
rigor behind it, I don't think Iwould have been able to get past
some of the limitations of myown ear.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Thank you for tuning in to this music theory
interview between me and my goodfriend Zlee.
Do check the description of thispodcast to find links to some of
his music for you to enjoy.
And this is only part one of atwo-part series of interviewing
Zlee, so do stay tuned for thesecond half of this interview
(31:44):
next week.
I'm gonna leave you with one ofhis tracks that's called
Entertaining Ideas.
I do hope you enjoy it.
And until next week, I will lookforward to continuing this music
theory education with all ofyou.
Have a beautifully musical week,everybody.
(32:07):
See you next week.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
Cause I need it, and I'm going down without feeding.
Gotta have my fit when I'mseeing bleeding.
Got something I can say, but Idon't get it.
Haven't I seen you before?
unknown (33:02):
Looks like you up and down below.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Yeah, I was good at it.
Context, killing life with ascientist reflex.
It's appropriate.
Yeah, I bring all theperspective.
Steady up and watch your codesreflecting.
I have future ghosts.
(33:37):
Got me laid down on the floor.
unknown (33:40):
I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Might as well happen you met the moment that I knew
that.
That was a snippet from a tune called Crooked Atoms
by my good friend and artistthat goes by the name Zlee.
Welcome back to the HarmoniousBlacksmith, everybody.
I am your host, Kevin PatrickFleming, and today I have a
(00:52):
wonderful music theory interviewwith an artist, and you are not
gonna want to miss this.
So without further ado, let's dothe interview.
So here we are on episode 24 ofThe Harmonious Blacksmith, and
this is the second interview inmy series of music theory
interviews, and I have a veryspecial guest with me today, an
(01:16):
old friend, a fabulous musician,a fabulous composer, songwriter,
and musician.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome,Zlee.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Thanks.
Thanks, man.
That's like the nicest intro Ithink I've ever gotten.
SPEAKER_02 (01:39):
They love you.
You're an instant hit.
So, Zlee, thank you so much forbeing on episode 24 of the
Harmonious Blacks.
How are we doing this morning?
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
I'm doing well, man.
How are you doing?
And thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:51):
I'm doing great, man.
Yeah, absolutely, man.
I'm so glad that you're on theshow.
Thank you for the time, sir.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
I love your podcast.
Longtime listener, first timecaller.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Thank you.
Thank you, my friend.
That's so awesome.
And look, just so y'all know alittle bit of history, uh, me
and my friend Z Lee here.
By the way, that's Z-L-E-E.
That's what he goes by.
And he has been a friend of minefor many decades, actually.
We went to high school together,and we have kept up over the
(02:24):
years because not only the bondof friendship, absolutely yes,
but also that friendship startedthrough the bond of music.
So, Zlee, I want to ask you afew questions to start.
Let's start with this.
Tell us your background.
Where were you born?
Where did you grow up?
And what was life generally likegrowing up for you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
I have been in this area for my whole life.
So, uh, like you said, you and Ihave been playing music together
a very, very long time.
I think I think I've known youfor uh several decades at this
point, and uh so I have beenJust go ahead and date us.
Yeah, I know.
Um I I have been in the uhAtlanta area my whole life, um
(03:10):
really out in the burbs, and umgrowing up in that area was like
I think a very typical suburban,you know, life growing up.
And uh I kind of uh started toget into music when I, you know,
was when when really when grungewas coming out, you know, which
is again dating us.
So um music music.
(03:32):
So the nineties?
Right, early nineties.
Uh so music was like a hugething at that time and it
grabbed me up, man.
So so yeah, uh my family stilllives in this area.
Um my uh I'm just and I havelike grown up, gotten married,
had a family, stayed in thisarea, and am continuing to just
(03:55):
obsess about music in my sparetime.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
And that's wonderful, and that's why you're
here, and that's why we'reinterested in what you have to
say.
So, sounds like you're asouthern boy through and
through, born right here in thesouthern US, and that's
wonderful.
So let me tell let me ask youthis.
Um, what about what age did yourinterest in music get sparked?
(04:21):
And if you can recall, what wasit exactly that did that for
you?
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah, man.
I mean, you know, I I I havememories, vivid memories of
being a kid and riding around inin the car with my parents, and
my dad always listened toMotown.
Um, my mom was always listeningto whatever.
I I can picture myself in theearly 80s riding around in her
cutlass.
I don't know.
I mean, does anyone know what acutlass even is, right?
(04:48):
Um I do.
I had a I had a hand-me-downOldsmobile cutlass.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
You did.
SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
Oh, that's amazing.
I don't even think I knew that.
Um so and you know, listening touh all kinds of whatever country
radio was on, or you know, uheasy listening from the late
70s.
So, but but really I didn'tdevelop my own musical interest
and taste probably until earlymiddle school in in our area.
(05:14):
That's uh basically like sixthgrade.
So I was like 12 years old in1991.
There, I'm there, I'm reallydating myself specifically, but
yes, you do.
You know, um, that is the yearuh that Metallica released their
black album and Guns N' Rosesreleased Use Your Illusion one
and two, right?
And like all of all of us hadthose albums, but what also came
(05:36):
out that year was was Pearl Jamand Nirvana and the Red Hot
Chili Peppers, you know, BloodSugar Sex Magic, right?
And so yeah, I think for me,like that's really what grabbed
my attention.
I mean, I remember listening toEddie Vedder and thinking, man,
he doesn't sing like anyone I'veever heard before, but I really
like it.
Uh, and I wasn't sure why.
(05:57):
And I feel like that's how a lotof music is for me.
Like, you know, I like it andI'm not sure why.
Start is how things get started.
SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
So yeah, no, that's fantastic.
You mentioned uh red hot chilipeppers, blood sugar, sex magic.
That brought me back to justremembering when I was mowing my
parents' lawn in middle schooland and having a Walkman on my
hip with a cassette tape ofBlood Sugar Sex Magic by Red Hot
Chili Peppers.
(06:24):
Absolutely.
And just and that was just aphenomenal music.
I mean, it still is, it's itstood the test of time, but we
we were definitely influenced bythat time period, um for sure.
So at what point in your in yourdevelopment or or just growing
up in general, did you decidethat you wanted to actually
participate and play music?
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Um, well, that's a great question.
Um, so kind of the same guy whouh a friend of mine who lived in
the neighborhood right acrossthe street.
He he had like older siblings,right?
And I was the oldest child, sowhen you're the oldest or the
only, you know, you don't andyou don't have any influences to
like hand you a cassette tape ora CD or send you the current
(07:07):
streaming uh you know link orwhatever.
Right.
Um it's hard to find stuff whenyou are uh when you're like in
that situation.
And so uh a friend of mineacross the street, he had some
of those older siblings andstuff, and basically uh is is
one of the reasons I kind of gotinto like metal and punk early
(07:30):
on and then grunge right therealongside it.
Um and he actually was the sameone who's like, dude, we should
like learn to play instruments,and he really wanted to play
bass.
And uh I said, Well, I don'tknow how and I don't know
anything about playing music,you know.
I'm like again 12 or 13 yearsold.
So I think I bought like a$75drum set and uh began he and I
(07:55):
began like drum and bass,torturing my family uh in the in
our basement, you know, uh thatsummer, uh trying to play
Credence Clearwater Revivalsongs.
And uh but but yeah, I mean,pretty pretty early on.
I mean, drums were to mesomething that happened um that
that were easy to pick up, and Iguess easy easy to pick up
(08:18):
because I had like enough rhythmfor it to organically happen.
I feel like a lot of instrumentsare that way for you know,
sometimes you just hand a kid aninstrument and they're like, oh,
this is terrible, but then theypick up another one and they're
like, Oh, I love this.
And I that was kind of how itwas for me as a drummer.
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
So no, absolutely, and that's that's wonderful
advice, um, especially since Iknow that you have two kids that
are coming up now, and one ofwhich I know is playing music,
and another that may.
Yeah, and you know, it's it'swonderful advice coming from a
father and a family man to forother people in their families
about what to do with their kidsbecause parents definitely
(08:56):
understand that music isimportant for children growing
up and their development.
Would you say that as well?
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
Oh man, absolutely.
I mean, it's it's not onlypersonally for me, it's given me
so much pleasure, but also likerelationships with other people.
You know, uh my son has kind offollowed my trajectory and that
he does a lot of uh musicproduction alone, you know, like
(09:22):
in the bedroom, working on adigital audio workstation on his
on his laptop, you know, and sowe both do a lot of that stuff.
But um all of all of his friendswere in the band in high school,
and I think that's one thing hekind of sort of realizes, man, I
really wish that I had you knowfollowed through playing the
tuba in middle school and stuckwith it in high school and like
(09:44):
you know, had had uh some ofthose band uh moments that those
guys had.
But he was a good example of onewhere we didn't do a good job of
being like, okay, so you don'tlove the tuba, let's find
another instrument, you know.
Um so I I think it's reallyimportant to not only like you
know make music important aspart of growing up, but also
(10:04):
make sure that people feelconfident learning how to
express themselves on you knowdifferent instruments and
finding one that really fits forthem.
SPEAKER_02 (10:14):
That is very well put, yeah, and that's wonderful
advice for parents out there,especially parents who have
really young kids and theyreally are interested in when to
get them started and how to getthem started and things like
that.
So that's those are fantasticnuggets.
Thank you for that.
Nice, thank you.
Um so if y'all couldn't tell bynow, based on Zlee's story
(10:38):
there, he is a percussionist bynature, a drummer, but he also
plays other instruments.
So can you also tell ouraudience just what other
instruments you play and youknow maybe about your
songwriting a little?
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Yeah, man, absolutely.
So, um, and and I shouldprobably like couch all of this
to say that I am very much anamateur musician, right?
And so that's okay.
We welcome that here.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
We totally welcome that here.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
If any of your listeners click on anything, the
find my music, you will findthat it is very straightforward,
really simple.
I I just like songs.
And so for me, starting out as adrummer, um, and I I took very
little formal instruction of ofplaying, but I had some, you
know, great drums are one ofthose things where you can put
(11:27):
on some headphones and bangalong, and and and so much of it
is feel, uh, very little theory,very heavy on on feel.
Then you start to realize thatyour technique gaps are a real
problem, right?
But um I did enjoy just the feelof drumming and the feel of
rhythm so much, but I got to apoint um, you know, really after
(11:49):
my son was born, um, that I waslike, you know, I can't really
bang loudly around the houseanymore.
And uh and and I just imaginethat.
Right.
And I just had a little bit ofan appetite for expressing uh I
I've I mean, you know, you andI've played music together for a
long time.
I was not a principal songwriterin that band, you know, and or
(12:10):
or ever.
Um, but I've always had a lot oflike song ideas, and so I did
pick up enough guitar basicallyto play chords, right?
Um, and and that was uhsomething that percolated really
like slowly while my kids werereally young.
And um, but it was a a lot ofthat for me was just about
learning how to write music, uh,how to uh craft song, take words
(12:37):
and turn, you know, words andpoetry, turn them into lyrics
and and have that turn itconvert into melody, you know,
and and have that melody fitwith chords.
So I learned a lot about chordprogressions and how melody can
be uh an enhancement to chordprogressions and vice versa.
And then and then it's and thenat some point, you know, in the
last uh, I don't know, it'sprobably five or six years or
(12:59):
so, I kind of realized thatlike, you know, piano is a
different, it's like a differentlens.
It's like when you're playing uha guitar and and you're thinking
about chords and chord shapesthrough guitar, and then you sit
down and and you play with pianochords and triads or whatever on
a piano, and then you you it'sso easy to invert a chord on a
(13:22):
piano, you know.
Yes, so that was so true, right?
That was like a huge epiphanyfor me.
So so long story short, longstory short, I play uh a I play
drums very confidently, althoughI would not say I'm anywhere
near expert, but I I have a lotof muscle memory.
Um I play enough rhythm acousticguitar to be dangerous, and I
(13:44):
play just a little bit of piano,a little even less of maybe
mandolin, and at the end of theday, I just have channeled all
of that into songwriting.
So um, you're asking about mymusic, uh, so Z-L-E-E has become
my kind of like uh my artistname for lack of a better word,
but uh that uh the songwritingapproach there is just purely
(14:07):
about uh uh trying to capturefeelings and ideas, you know?
So I don't have like anyparticular any mission or any
kind of like uh it's not likeI'm writing lots of songs about
love or lots of songs about youknow other topics.
It's and you'll you when youlisten to any of the words,
you're like, what exactly is hetrying to say there?
(14:27):
So I'm I'm probably a littleeffusive, but for me it is just
this I'm like a middle-aged dudewho really enjoys the hobby of
pouring myself into makingsomething, and and this has been
a lot of fun for me.
So that was a very long-windedanswer to your question, but
that's that's kind of how I gotfrom there to here.
SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
That's okay.
We we love details and we acceptthem as such.
No, that's wonderful.
I'm always interested in, youknow, the critical decisions
about, you know, you werepercussionist, it's fairly
straightforward, you learnthings by feel, eventually you
pick up a guitar, you startlearning some chording and
understand, start to understandbasic as we go into our
(15:08):
discussion about how you usemusic theory here, you start to
go into some basic components ofunderstanding really naturally,
kind of intrinsically, becauseyou're like, Well, how does this
work?
And how does this work if I'mgonna play these instruments?
And you know, I love what yousaid about piano.
So, all my listeners out there,you you totally corroborated all
(15:30):
the information I've been givingthem so far in in previous
episodes about how important itis to just understand a keyboard
and how it works and how thatfilters into how you understand
chording and like you said,chord inversions that get
flipped.
And of course, I've done a lotof episodes on that with bass
lines and things.
(15:50):
Yes, and um, so all of that wasreally good information.
So let me let me flip to thisnow.
At what point were your earsopen to the fact that music
theory was a thing and that itcould help you in your
endeavors?
At what point did you discovermusic theory?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Um, you know, I I think especially kind of coming
to music through something likepunk rock and grunge, which was
just not particularly musical inthe classical sort of sense, I I
didn't really pay any attentionto it.
And then by the time you and Iwere playing music together, uh,
you know, I was but a aminimally capable drummer uh and
(16:32):
not the only drummer in theband, right?
And the so I I was probably theleast musical of the group, so
it's kind of interesting tothink about that.
Um, you know, I I don't think Iunderstood anything about music
theory before then.
I I don't even think I'd Iprobably heard the words until
not at all, man.
And I mean when I think about uhyou and our friend Drew uh
(16:56):
listening to y'all talk aboutharmony, and and you would I
remember a moment where you'relike, uh no man, you're you're
singing an octave.
I need you to sing a fifth orsomething like that.
And I'm I'm sitting therethinking to myself, what exactly
is he talking about?
So I I really think that, and Idon't even think that was enough
to make well, I mean, back then,frankly, you couldn't go home
and Google it.
(17:17):
I was about to say, I don't eventhink that was enough to make me
Google it, but there was noGoogle.
Yeah, just date us there again.
SPEAKER_02 (17:22):
Just pigeon pigeonhole us as middle-aged old
farts or whatever.
I'm sorry, I keep doing that.
That's fine.
Yes, no, no, no.
That's I I actually think it'sfunny.
It's okay for everybody to knowthat's really because guess
what?
Wisdom cannot be fake.
No people.
That's true, man.
We've you can take that or leavethat.
We've come by it honestly.
Wisdom, we've come by ithonestly.
(17:42):
I love that.
All right, so originally youwere percussionist, and it just
never really occurred to you.
And so, what at what point didit occur to you like, hey, this
is interesting and I want tounderstand it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I mentionedlike going from playing drums to
playing guitar.
And when I say playing guitar, Imean I'm like literally uh apps
on my phone to show me chordshapes.
Uh, you know.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
And so And people do that.
I mean, that's what that's whatpeople are doing.
It's either YouTube videos orthat, or you know, they're
looking at reels on certainsocial media sites where they
just get snippets of stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Well, and I it's I mean, it's everything's very
democratized now, right?
I mean, even songwriting andright making music, the fact
that I can do it in my bedroom,it's like everybody has access
to it.
So kind of going back to yourearlier thing about parenting
and and having kids, it's likethere are so many ways that a
kid can get what they needmusically to kind of make
progress and momentum.
(18:45):
And uh oftentimes as a parent,like the best thing you can do
is really just continue toencourage it and make it a
priority and show them thingsand so on.
But um, anyway, music theory wasnot that's wonderful.
Yeah, music theory was notsomething at all that was like
on the radar for me, and then Iknew uh as I started playing
guitar, I really think themoment that it clicked for me
(19:06):
that I needed to know theinformation was when I got a
capo.
And and you know that'sinteresting, right?
And I'm like, oh, I'm playing ina different key now, I can play
the exact same shapes.
You mean I can play uh, youknow, a C, a D minor, an E
minor, a G, uh, and you know,like the basic cowboy chords
(19:30):
that you can learn.
Um, and now I can play all ofthose and I'm suddenly playing
in the key of F, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
And um Yeah, and just to pause for a second
because um for anybody in theaudience out there that doesn't
know what he's talking aboutwith a capo, he's speaking of a
tool that we use on reallymainly guitar, but other fretted
instruments where you're able toslap it on the neck and move it
(19:56):
around in order to change thekey of the instrument without
having to change the shapes ofthe cord.
Absolutely.
So you can make the instrumenthigher, you can make it
generally.
I mean, a capo makes aninstrument higher, obviously.
So you put it on there and youraise the key to a different
level.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, and I think that was it for me.
And and that probably is why myappetite for like seeing the
piano keyboard makes is similarbecause it's the same sort of
it's like patterns, right?
You know, the patterns that thesure the shapes and patterns you
can make with your hands on apiano or a guitar, you move them
up and down the fretboard orkeyboard, and it translates
(20:35):
generally very, very similarly.
And so I think once I realizedthat that uh it's not that I
felt like I had unlocked likethe key to doing it, it was more
so the realization that like,oh, I need to understand what
I'm doing.
Like, I don't, you know, I don'tknow that I'm actually by using
(20:55):
this device, I don't know thatI'm actually moving into the the
the correct chords for the keythat I think I'm playing in,
right?
And so really feeling that likeappetite for like, oh, I may be
actually doing something stupid,and or I'm or I would hear
something and say, that doesn'tquite sound right, but I can't
say why.
(21:15):
And it bothered me that Icouldn't say why.
And so I think that was reallywhat what sort of lit the fire
for me.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
Oh wow, that's very interesting.
So you definitely got to a pointwhere you went down the rabbit
hole of questions at some pointwhen you started and really, I
mean, I guess that started whenyou really started playing
guitar.
So, what so I was recentlyhaving a conversation with a
young budding musician who has alot of promise, and I was
(21:43):
talking about you know how theylearn and lessons and things
like that.
And one of my questions came in,well, are you learning any music
theory?
And he said, No, I just doeverything by ear, I don't
really need any music theory.
So, my question to you would beWhat advice can you give to
especially young folks liketeenagers, early 20s, people who
(22:05):
are just up and coming in musicand are playing an instrument by
ear?
Um, what how can you can yougive them advice on how
important music theory is totheir development of music or
lack thereof?
I mean, in other words, feelfree to give your opinion on
both sides.
(22:25):
I mean that earnestly.
In other words, hey, you can dothis much without it, but you in
the end, you're gonna want thismuch, you know.
So however you want to framethat, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
I I love I I yeah, if I were if someone were to say
that to me, I'm sitting heretrying to decide how would I
answer, how would I respond tothat?
Because really, my my path todoing what I do is um is really
like organic, you know.
Like I am one, I am not ascholar in any form.
(23:01):
Um, and but two, I'm also not areal accomplished performer.
And I know some people like Mr.
Kevin Patrick Fleming, who iswho are, you know, very, very
proficient uh on both subjects,right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
And so um I am I I wear that amateur badge really
uh really boldly, but I did andthat again, we're you know,
we're I I I want to pause tojust point that out to my
audience that that's part of thereason that you're on here
because I want you all to knowthose Lee is one of my very best
(23:36):
friends in the world, and he'salso more talented than his
humbleness will come off here.
Um he also is uh he's a familyman, he's a career man, and you
know, he has those things thatoccupy his life, and music has
really always been a passion.
He was always gonna do it.
(23:58):
Um it just does it in at youknow on the side.
And I I think most people thatare gonna listen to my program
are gonna be like that.
So I think I think they're veryinterested in that.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
No, totally agree with you.
And I was just gonna say, Imean, thank you for your kind
words, obviously, but like Ithink um that's kind of where I
was going just now was like theidea that um people who aren't
scholars of this subject and whoare just like curious, you know,
and they're hungry and they'recurious, that's really where I
(24:31):
was.
And so I think the going back tothe person, um, you know, not
approaching this from ascholarly place, approaching
this from kind of like thepractical place.
I mean, really, I I practicallyhave learned music theory not so
much so that I could be a betterperformer or player of an
instrument, but so that I couldwrite more interesting
(24:51):
compositions, you know, anddoing so doing so on a keyboard,
like programming, right?
I mean, I'm uh I mean, I knowyou're not getting on your show
a lot into like topics of MIDIand quantizing and you know,
things like that in in indigital audio, right?
But um, but but so so I came tothat space really with theory
(25:12):
because I realized, oh, I'mwriting things that are pretty
weak sauce, you know, likethey're they're not actually
like I actually cannot expressmyself enough without knowing
more.
Yeah.
And so it's like I got to a sothat the the person who said,
Hey, I'm doing I do it by ear,I'm like, I actually was kind of
(25:34):
doing the same.
And I would say, what note arethey playing?
And I'm like, oh, I canreplicate that, right?
And so, um sure, and and in somecases I could uh I could fumble
my way into something cool.
To me, it's the difference, andand perhaps I know there are
unquestionably people in theworld who who can do it by ear
and can do so elegantly by ear,but I'm not one of them.
(25:57):
And so for me, what that endedup looking like was at best, I
stumbled on something cool, andat worst, I got stuck.
And so for me personally, Irealized like in order for me
not to get stuck, I need tolearn a little bit more about
the craft of of how you know I'musing this chord progression.
(26:18):
What what where could I take it?
Um, I might fumble my way onto acool opportunity or place to go
next, but also like let me thinkabout that.
What notes are in this?
And maybe I want to change thekey, and um, you know, what what
does the seventh in the scalepotentially get me if I were to
(26:39):
move to that note?
And it it helps you experiment,I think, in a way that opens
doors.
Um at least coming at it fromthe angle that I've came at it.
So yeah, anyway, I guess that'sthat's kind of my hot take.
SPEAKER_02 (26:53):
Yeah, that's really good.
That that's actually a reallygood take.
Um, I like that.
So, as you know, our listenerscan tell, one of your main
focuses now is songwriting,which you know we love.
People are very interested inthat.
And even though, you know, I'm asongwriter, but I don't really
consider myself like I'm not asuperior songwriter.
(27:14):
Like, I read it stuff here andthere, um, but not as much
anymore.
So I would say you're definitelya bit more prolific than me
these days, which is great.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
Or or I mean, I actually I was just gonna
respond to your comment aboutthe prolific.
I mean, yeah, sure.
To to me, yeah, go ahead.
To to me, uh uh and I've heardsome of your songs, and you are
a great songwriter.
Um, right.
And so but but prolific is theoperative word because for me
it's become it's become a realoutlet, you know.
It's like, and I have ideas justkicking.
(27:47):
I take notes of obsessively onon lyrical ideas, you know.
Um I I think that's one of thereally cool parts about living
in the day and age that we livein.
It's like I can capture anyidea.
You know, idea capture is soeasy.
SPEAKER_02 (28:04):
Um having technology is fun these days.
SPEAKER_00 (28:08):
It's insane.
I mean, just having an iPhone,it's insane.
If you I mean, I'm sure I knowlots of different phone
companies work this way, buthaving garage band in my pocket
to tap out a melody on akeyboard, having the ability to
record myself while I'm driving,if I have like an idea, I you I
mean, one day my family is goingto dig through the archive of my
(28:28):
ridiculous snippets of audio andlike notes, and they're gonna
make this this guy was insane.
But um, prolific is probably theright word because uh I kind of
obsessively use my energy topull those into like reasonably
coherent things.
I I just for some reason it hasbeen like a great kick, and uh
in like the post-pandemic world,it's just really filled my cup
(28:50):
in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Yeah, and that's great.
And I think you know, you'redefinitely not alone.
I think um, especially betweenthe advancement of technology as
you were speaking of, and alsothe times like COVID in 2020,
and the fact that really peoplehad to really were forced to
make a jump through technology,and I think also because people
(29:14):
were, you know, had the ultimatecabin fever at that time that
people were going into the holeusing technology to, you know,
hey, let's go record some music,you know, let me go play some
music, record it, let's do someexperimenting, we've had the
time, there's no work today,yeah, things like that.
Um, even if you did have workthat day, but you know what I'm
(29:34):
saying, like things weredifferent.
So, based on your answer, um, itsounds like to me, you feel like
with music theory that if youlearn by ear, which is great,
because we know ear is ournumber one asset, but if you
learn by ear, you at some pointwill almost inevitably hit some
form of a ceiling or a wall ofunderstanding.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
I think so.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Where you need to I th I would Agree, and that's why
I wanted to hit on this.
So basically, your advice forpeople out there is you know, if
you get so far with your ear andyou're hitting walls and
ceilings, you know, and let'ssay you hated music theory.
Well, guess what?
It might be your next adventure.
You just have to find a way toease into it.
(30:18):
You might find you love it morethan you think, right?
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
I think so, man.
And I and I, you know, the way Iwould uh like maybe the metaphor
or the example I would use is isabout singing.
And I am not a great singer.
Um, I enjoy singing.
Me neither.
I enjoy singing.
Um, I'm I'm not a great singer.
You are someone though who umknows how to harmonize and hit a
note, and I really can't.
(30:41):
So my ear has a limitation inthat way, and that's a great, I
think, tie back to the questionfrom your student.
Like, my ear could only get meso far.
I really had to sit down infront of a keyboard and start
listening for intervals, and andyou know, and like you used in
an earlier podcast talking aboutuh, you know, pop culture
(31:02):
examples, like for for me, Jawswas the the great example, or
Star Wars, you know, some ofthose where I'm like, ah yes,
now I can now I can always hearit and I can almost sing it.
So I think without that likefocus on the theory and the
rigor behind it, I don't think Iwould have been able to get past
some of the limitations of myown ear.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Thank you for tuning in to this music theory
interview between me and my goodfriend Zlee.
Do check the description of thispodcast to find links to some of
his music for you to enjoy.
And this is only part one of atwo-part series of interviewing
Zlee, so do stay tuned for thesecond half of this interview
(31:44):
next week.
I'm gonna leave you with one ofhis tracks that's called
Entertaining Ideas.
I do hope you enjoy it.
And until next week, I will lookforward to continuing this music
theory education with all ofyou.
Have a beautifully musical week,everybody.
(32:07):
See you next week.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
Cause I need it, and I'm going down without feeding.
Gotta have my fit when I'mseeing bleeding.
Got something I can say, but Idon't get it.
Haven't I seen you before?
unknown (33:02):
Looks like you up and down below.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Yeah, I was good at it.
Context, killing life with ascientist reflex.
It's appropriate.
Yeah, I bring all theperspective.
Steady up and watch your codesreflecting.
I have future ghosts.
(33:37):
Got me laid down on the floor.
unknown (33:40):
I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Might as well happen you met the moment that I knew
that.
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