October 28, 2025 • 33 mins
The Continuation of an interview with a Fabulous Composer/SongWriter and Music Theory Lover : ZLEE
LINKTREE to ZLEE Tracks :
We Discuss The importance of Music Theory, The advantages and pitfalls, and we even get into topics like concerts, live music, key changes, the state of the music industry, the composition process, the pros and cons of music theory for creativity purposes, and much more!
Linear Music Theory Learning For Everyone!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (01:15):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the
Harmonious Blacksmith.
This is episode 25 of my series,and it is part two of a very
important interview with my goodfriend Zlee.
I hope you enjoyed part one lasttime, and you will certainly
enjoy part two.
(01:36):
Without further ado, let's havea conversation with Zlee.
Enjoy.
So my next question to you wouldbe one that might not be
expected, which is do you feelthat music theory has limited
your creativity?
And if so, did you have to finda way to push past that?
(01:58):
Like, in other words, once youhad the knowledge, does it
change the way you think aboutmusic forever?
Like you can't go back.
Does it limit your creativity inany way?
You can kind of comment that onthat however you want to.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't I wouldn't say
that it's limited my creativityin general.
And I think that's because Icame to it from a place of
creative hunger.
Like I got, but that's and I'mnot saying that's the right way.
Uh I just think that's onereason for me that um like I I
needed I needed it to in orderto express myself further.
SPEAKER_03 (02:33):
Um and it's not like so it was basically the exact
opposite.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Kind of kind of the exact opposite.
But one thing that I have foundthat's um that does happen
sometimes is that I will find aconcept that I get excited about
and a little obsessed with, andI like try to make something
work using it.
And I think key changes arereal, a really good and simple
example of that.
(02:58):
Like, oh, I you know, I I hearpeople say, I want to ask right,
I want there to be a key changein this song, you know.
Like that's something peoplestrive for.
And I recently saw a chart thatwas like key changes uh in songs
like going back over the last 50years, like the the vast
majority of songs on the radiohad a key change in it, and now
that's not true anymore.
(03:19):
Um, and so I think that was anexample of one, right?
I don't know why that's true, orI mean, I guess it's just fallen
out of favor or something, orwhy why do you think so?
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Honestly, I really think it's because of the music
industry itself, theentertainment industry.
Everything has to be simplifiedand simplified and simplified.
Basically, they're trying toshorten things, make them more
vanilla, make them simple, andjust kind of reproduce what
worked in the past.
Yeah, that's all they're tryingto do.
And a key change is somethingthat is unexpected that takes
(03:54):
the ear to another place.
So the more time that's gone by,they don't want to do that.
They don't it's deemed as it'skind of weird in their mind.
SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Like it's not as as palatable or something, yeah.
You know, because coming to itthrough a creative space was how
I got to theory.
Um, I it really fuels me more sothan uh it drains me.
So so theory really opens doorsfor my creativity rather than
the other way around.
SPEAKER_03 (04:20):
That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
But I think that like I I do get obsessed at
times with like in trying toincorporate a musically
interesting concept, right?
Um, saying like, oh, I want tochange the key in this song,
like just just because I want totry it.
Um, and and that's often when Iwant when I find myself like
(04:41):
it's almost like I'm trying toput the square peg in the round
hole a little bit.
Like, yeah, that's cool, butit's uh I'm just uh what's the
saying?
If everything is uh if you treatevery uh every tool like a
hammer, then everything is anail.
I I can't remember, but yeah,you know, it's like I'm
something like that.
I'm solving, I'm not solving theright problem, right?
(05:03):
And so that to me is when theoryisn't very useful, is like I'm
just trying to do it for thesake of doing it.
So that to me is uh the onlytime I think that it would limit
my creativity.
So I guess I guess I guess myadvice would be like use it when
it's useful, you know.
It's about uh how can it servewhat you're doing ultimately.
That's the whole value of musictheory, I think, to me.
SPEAKER_03 (05:26):
I love that.
Yeah, that's great.
And I I do think there is somevalue, especially when you're
first learning music theory.
Kind of, you know, you use thethe tool metaphor, you know.
Well, if you have a toolbox forthe first time and you don't
know what anything does, at somepoint you're gonna pull it all
out and you're gonna bang aroundand figure out what all of it
does.
And I think that's kind of whatyou're talking about.
(05:47):
I think there's value in that,the idea that you use the
example of a key change, which Ilike because, you know, you
know, what does a key change doin music?
It it takes you, it takes youradventure to a place you didn't
expect.
Yeah, that's what a key changedoes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
And I think coming coming to a song and saying, oh,
well, I should use a key changeso that I can accomplish that,
like maybe there's other ways toaccomplish that.
And that's when I think it woulduh it I wouldn't say it's
limited my creativity.
I said I think my uh my partialum knowledge of music theory
often is more of what limits mycreativity because the the key
(06:23):
change in that moment wouldn'tbe the only tool in my toolbox
to gain something uh unexpectedor new or different from a song.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
Oh, that's really good.
So music theory for the sake ofmusic theory or just for the
sake of exercise is one thing,but when you really want to put
it into your passion, whatyou're doing with your
songwriting or your performing,that should hopefully be a whole
different realm.
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
Yeah, I love that's basically what you're saying.
Totally.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Okay, so having given all that great advice that
you just gave to people outthere that might be looking to
use some music theory goingforward in the future, what
would you say would be the mostimportant concept in music
theory in the beginning?
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
Oh man, that's a hard one.
In the beginning.
SPEAKER_03 (07:13):
Um like in other words, what what is what is the
gateway to get off and runningwith music theory?
Like, I think a lot of it, theintimidation is like it's kind
of its own language and world,it's its own conceptual world.
And I think a lot of people areintimidated by the fact that
(07:34):
it's all this stuff and theyjust don't know how to start the
journey.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I think uh general likeliteracy of of the of scales and
understanding uh the language isreally hard.
And that's usually I think wherethe chapter one of any theory
book is is like hey, you need tounderstand right, like you need
to understand scales and sharpsand flats, and so like it makes
(08:00):
sense to uh to get into thatthat way.
Like it's it's obviously thebuilding block that things get
built on top of.
Um, but I think to me, and I andI and like adult education and
is uh is kind of my job.
I do it in a corporate setting,but like one of the things I
think of is um what is gonnagrab you?
(08:21):
What's the sticky thing?
And I I think one of the realsticky concepts for someone who
doesn't know anything abouttheory and and and you know, you
want them to you want to helpthem understand how it's like
meaningful, kind of going backto the whole intervals thing,
right?
Like, you know, bana, right?
And like helping themunderstand, like, hey, that's
literally uh, you know, thatthat that uh that interval right
(08:46):
there means something, and itmeans something else when you
hear it in the context of yourfavorite science fiction movie,
right?
And so um I I think that to meis uh a good one, it's a good
starting place.
It may not be like the most uheffective starting place um for
the education side of things,but I think that like that's one
to me that's real grabby.
(09:08):
It it gets people's attention.
SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
I like that.
So basically, my friend Zleehere, he's telling you scales
are the building blocks, andthat will of course um be in
accordance with everything I'vebeen talking about in my
podcast.
So that's probably good.
It's probably good that that weagree on that.
And um, the next thing for you,which I really love, is that you
(09:32):
mentioned the, you know, this isthe second time you've mentioned
intervals, which is great.
So, again, people out there, um,ear training is so important.
I will have more episodes on eartraining coming up, by the way.
I've done a couple if you wantto go back and check them out,
but um I will have more in thenear future because it is really
(09:52):
that important.
And again, I'll remind you Ididn't have the greatest ear or
the natural ear.
I did have to go through the eartraining, and I went through it
with much passion and um, youknow, just kind of awe of the
whole thing, and I really justhumbled myself and took it all
in.
And I I it helped me take mymusicianship to a level that I
(10:13):
never dreamed of.
And I always want to remindpeople that like I'm playing
music now that I thought wasimpossible before.
And a lot of that is yes, hardwork and technique, and I am a
trained musician, but at thesame time, putting the head
space to it, the music theoryand the concepts and things
(10:34):
really allowed me to take thingsto a really high level.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
I love what you just said, Kevin.
Okay, if I can add to that realquick, I was just gonna say that
like I love I love the way youjust frame that, and that's that
like this world of of music andmusic theory is it's like an
absolute um lifetime ofinformation and places to
explore.
Like I I just think it's there'suh so many ways to constantly be
(11:03):
improving and thinking andlearning that um even though
it's just these seven or eightnotes, um, you know, like it's
it there is so much uh if youcontinue to pour yourself into
it, right?
Like it it it gives back.
It's absolutely it's one ofthose what you uh you get what
you give um in terms of timespent on theory.
(11:23):
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
All right, Mr.
Zlee, you've given us a lot ofgood stuff so far.
My next question to you would behow do you use music theory to
intentionally evoke a certainemotion in a composition or even
a performance?
SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Oh man.
So I have released threedifferent albums at this point.
I'm actually about to to to rollout a fourth one, um, and
they're all kind of different.
SPEAKER_04 (11:50):
There you go.
So you are prolific.
I am prolific.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
I am if nothing else, I am generating a lot of
content over here.
But um Yes, you are.
But yeah, the the first twoalbums I I really did like uh
it's very singer-songwriter-y.
And the third one um is calledIt Was Never What You Thought,
and that one is uh very, very uhelectronically produced.
Like there's actually only onesong that has any guitar on it
at all for the most part.
(12:14):
Um it's uh it's done on akeyboard in in my office, you
know.
And so um uh so I think it wasonly when I really sat down in
in front of a piano keyboard forme personally, because I don't
think I have enough guitar chopsto really make it happen.
And and through the very likeslow and thoughtful process of
(12:35):
composing on my computer, was Iable to kind of bring enough um
theory into the to the processto really get a real dynamic uh
sort of palette.
Um, and so for example, there'sthere's one song on there uh
that I I had a lot of funmaking.
It's called Entertaining Ideas,and that's literally what I was
doing.
(12:55):
And so speaking of theory,right?
It was like a lot of these sortof um learnings bouncing around
in my head and and trying to uhkind of bring them to life.
Uh, but but it's throughcomposed, and I'm not sure if
that's language that you woulduse, Kevin.
I mean, the way I understandthat word meaning that the
sections of the song reallydon't repeat, so it kind of goes
(13:18):
from the A section to the B tothe C to the D.
Is that how you would describeit?
SPEAKER_04 (13:22):
Yep, that is exactly what through composed is.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
Yep.
It's like a G sharp minor, Csharp minor, E major, F sharp
major, and A major.
So I think that G sharp minorshould have been diminished, but
I need to go back and listen tomore harmonious blacksmith to
keep myself straight.
Anyway, the count of Yeah,that's for sure.
No, you're doing pretty good.
SPEAKER_03 (13:41):
I mean, it sounds like mostly A, but honestly, it
could just be, I mean, it soundslike a mode of A.
And that's fine.
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
And it might maybe that G sharp minor is a borrowed
chord or something, but yeah, itin my mind it's like a seven,
three, five, six, one.
Uh, you know, um, but in abasically.
In A.
Yeah.
Um, so starting on a seven'spretty weird.
Um, but then the rhythm of it isthis, it's like uh there's a
count to it that's uh one, two,one, two, three, one, two,
(14:12):
three, four, one, two, three,four, five, six, right, and and
it repeats in this really weirdway, but I'm playing it in a
four, four time signatures.
It was this really specifictension that it was holding.
And I think starting on theseven, like polyrhythms.
Yeah, weird polyrhythms andweird tensions from it starting
on the seven.
So, like, you know, you askedabout emo uh evoking emotion.
(14:34):
I I liked it, I wanted it tofeel uh like it was gonna move
somewhere, and so that's onewhere I really sat down and
said, okay, well, if I'm endingon the one, that's a major, and
how can I shift that into thisthis bass line?
And I'm I'm I'm doing a lotrhythmically to kind of get it
to a place.
So that's one if I uh if I wereto say, hey, go listen to some
(14:56):
Zli and and uh listen tosomething kind of interesting.
That one does a lot to likemove, it changes time
signatures.
I probably changes keys a timeor two.
It's I'm not doing somethingalways super intentional.
I think there's this littledance that we do when we start
to learn about theory and andlearn the academics of a
(15:18):
particular subject where likesome of it is purposeful and
some of it is happy accidents.
And so this this was a good onewhere I was good, I was doing a
little bit of both, a little bitof happy accidents, and then I'd
get to a place I'm like, well,what could I do here?
And I had just enough theory inmy pocket to kind of drive it to
that next point.
But yeah, so I'd uh uh hopefullyyour listeners will check out
that song.
That's one that's uh kind of funfor for me to have played with.
SPEAKER_03 (15:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
I will definitely have themcheck that out.
And I um I I want to comment onthat because I do always tell
students of mine all the time,I'm like, no matter how much
conceptual stuff or technique orhow much you're reading about or
watching or listening to, atsome point you have to just
(16:03):
treat your instrument likeyou're a kid with a toy, yeah.
And you kind of and that's whatyou're talking about about happy
accidents.
I like the way you put thatbecause happy accidents happen
when you treat your instrumentlike a toy, but the beauty of
what you're talking about is youreally benefit the most from
bringing as much to the table aspossible, I would think.
(16:24):
In other words, I think there'sa lot of people out there that
that have an idea that you'regonna ruin the purity of your
music if you overthink it withmusic theory.
I think there's a lot of peopleout there that that subscribe to
that and believe that that'strue, and that's why uh this
conversation is really importantto me and to people that are
(16:46):
listening, because um I just Ipersonally, and it sounds like
you're in accordance, which islike we disagree with that
wholeheartedly.
I I have fully integrated musictheory into what I've done, and
it has it has only just made mymusicianship and my you know
music career go through theroof.
I mean, it's only done wonderfulthings.
(17:09):
I mean, this is all reallyimportant to people who are
developing in music and know ofmusic theory and are deciding
whether it's important to themor not.
I can give a quick anecdote forme.
I mean, yes, I've been a proprofessional musician for a
while, and I'm really kind offading into more of just a music
educator these days, but I stillwant to be able to go to a
(17:31):
concert and turn off the teacherhat, turn off the music theory
analysis hatally, and be able tojust close my eyes and enjoy
music, right?
So, can you give our listenersany insight into how that works
for you?
Like when you are like, okay,I'm I'm using, I need to pull
(17:51):
out my music theory toolbox forthis, it's important.
And then other times when youmight say, you know what, let's
let's put that box down for nowand just kind of close our eyes
and be free.
Can you give us some words onthat?
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
I love that.
And um, you know, I go to a lotof concerts, I'm sure a lot of
uh you guys listening do, andI'm uh concerts are one of the
big ways that I enjoy music.
I I love live music.
Um I've got just a wall ofconcert posters around me.
Uh super excited to go see DavidByrne in concert here in about
(18:27):
two months in in Atlanta.
So I just I love, love livemusic.
And um, and David Byrne's maybea really good example of this,
right?
So um, you know, he as aperformer is is energy and it's
and it's uh he he puts on aspectacle and he that's always
been part of his hisperformance, his performance
(18:50):
art, and it's in enjoyable andit's interesting and it's
thought-provoking, and it'smeant to be this sort of a
little bit jarring, you know.
Um, and is he doing musicallycomplicated things?
Not always, you know, right?
Sometimes, right, sometimesreally simple stuff.
(19:12):
Um, now that's where I say tomyself, you know, like I like to
show up and enjoy the vibes, youknow.
I really enjoy the the energy ofa musician like that.
There's a bunch I listen to alot a lot of indie rock type
stuff, and uh as y'all as y'allcan probably tell from listening
to my music, but that's that'skind of um part of the enjoyment
(19:33):
for me is just the just thefeelings.
And um now there comes to apoint though when I um hear
something, it's usually that forme, where I will personally hear
something and I'll say, ah, thatwas really interesting.
Like that was an interestingchange, that was an interesting
rhythm.
Um they did they, you know,resolve to the one?
(19:55):
I don't I don't think theyresolved that, or did they
change keys, you know, and youand you feel it, and then you
start thinking about it.
That to me is is usually how Icome to it.
Now, that's probably because Ilisten to a lot of rock music,
you know, and like that's my MO.
I think if you are uh sure, youknow, uh more of a classical
listener or something like that,like you you might have a
(20:16):
tendency to come uh and listento those compositions and
performances through more of theear of that.
I I don't know.
I mean you can speak to thatbetter than me, but for me, it's
uh I like to I activate thetheory in my brain when I hear
something that is uh that needsme to.
And that's why I think thehaving that uh just enough
(20:38):
theory in my pocket now allowsme to like enjoy music better.
Um, so one of the bands that uhyou and I listened to, you know,
growing up was the band Fish,you know, and we really enjoyed
like musically what those guysdo.
And um, but there were othertimes when they were just just
fun, you know, and it's likethey're not doing anything big.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
But I love now being able to listen to some of their
stuff, for example, or or otherbands that have instrumentally
robust capabilities, jazzmusicians and stuff like that.
And and uh it's not just that itcreates the vibe, but you can
hear why they created the vibeand how they created the vibe.
And so that's where to methere's a real nice balance
(21:20):
between uh experiencing music asjust someone who's there bobbing
your head, but also the kind ofintellectual exercise of it.
Uh, like it's double theenjoyment if you if you know
enough theory to kind of knowwhat they're doing.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (21:36):
Awesome.
Wow, yeah, that was that was afantastic response.
I really yeah, and I mean peopleI think have varying degrees of
that, and that's why I'm alwayscurious to ask individuals about
it.
Um because I think uh, you know,there's certain people out there
that you know just wouldconsider themselves overthinkers
(21:56):
or OCD thinkers, you know.
I am about a lot of stuff,admittedly, but I always knew
that I wanted, you know, when Iwas a music theory student, you
know, I might have been thinkingabout it more live, but I think
as I got older, you know, youseparate the two things.
But I'm really interested inwhat you were saying earlier
about like the theory mindactivates when you hear
(22:19):
something that's interesting orunique, something that you're
curious about how it came to be,about how they were able to
evoke an emotion this way orthat, or or make music go in a
certain direction, kind of likea roller coaster ride going up
and down hills through a loop orsomething, and and you you kind
(22:41):
of just want to know how that'sconstructed and how it's put
together.
And so really it becomes acuriosity, right?
And then let's say somethinglike that happens at a concert,
you go home and explore it, andthen all of a sudden you have
hopefully another littlesharpened tool in your body.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Well, hey, I love the way you said that.
Uh, and something just popped inmy head.
It's like the more you spendtime on this, um, you know, I
think people would assume, andmaybe this is just my take,
right?
Uh, you know, my my hot take onmusic theory is I don't always
feel like I've got more answersum the more I study or learn
(23:20):
about theory.
But what I do usually have arebetter questions, you know.
Um and and like it helps mereally enjoy music.
So I'll experience somethinglike you said in a concert and
be like, why did why was that socool?
And then I'll go back and youknow, the internet can give you
anything now, and I'll hey whatwhat happens at the three-minute
(23:40):
mark in this song?
And you know, Chat GPT cansuddenly tell me, oh well, they
they went from this to this tothis to this.
And I'm like, aha, now Iunderstand.
So uh so I know that theyaccomplished it by doing
something.
I kind of can't quite put my andthat's just where I am in my
own.
Yeah, I hope that in another 10or 20 years from now I can hear
it and I can actually name itrather than having to go Google
(24:02):
it.
But to me, knowing enough abouttheory helps me understand like
what what to like go look for,like, and then that I I
translate that directly into myown composition, you know, it's
like, oh well, that was a reallycool effect.
I wonder how I could usesomething like that.
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Okay, so out of all the music theory concepts that
you have in your toolbox now, isthere a particular scale, chord
progression, mode, or just anyanything like that that you came
across along the way that madeyou feel especially connected to
it emotionally or maybenostalgic in a way?
(24:41):
Maybe it it evoked somethingfrom childhood or just connected
to you with some important lifeexperience, right?
So we're talking about is therea music theory concept?
Is there a song?
Is there something you heardthat really did that to you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
Oh, I mean, there are so many.
Uh you know, it's funny when Ithink about uh like the
emotional connection of music,I've got a lot of song examples,
but I I love the way you askedthat, which was like, is there a
particular scale or mode?
Um and I'm like, do people havefavorite modes?
But I guess some people do havefavorite modes, huh?
SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
They kind of do.
I mean, I I find that somesongwriters will favor certain
modes here and there.
Um, you know, and I may be ableto give some examples later, but
uh Well, I think for me, yeah,no go.
SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
No, I was just gonna say, I think, I mean, and I'm
that that does make sense.
I think for me, uh, as far aslike writing and composing goes,
it's usually uh keys that myvoice sounds the best in, you
know, and and that one makes Ithink a lot of sense.
So if if uh any of you guys areout here.
Hence the oh go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Hence getting the capo as well.
Oh, exactly.
Slap the capo on, it helps youfind your vocal round.
Absolutely.
So we were talk right, we weretalking about like the function
of the capo earlier, because youknow, my listeners know that I'm
a guitar player and I play allmy audio examples on guitar.
Um, so most of you probablyknow, but yeah, capo not only
(26:14):
changes the key, but the wholereason to do that most of the
time is for vocals.
Most of the time it is forvocals.
Well, absolutely makes a lot ofsense.
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
And it's super fun as uh, especially as like a new
guitar player.
And again, uh getting a capo maybe like the worst advice I could
ever give someone.
I don't know, but uh it reallyis a fun way just to be like,
oh, I'm doing somethingdifferent, and oh, my voice
sounds different when I sing itover this.
So there's a lot of learning, Ithink, that happens there.
(26:42):
Um, you know, to answer yourquestion about like I I wouldn't
say that I necessarily have likea mode in my mind or a scale or
chord progression in my mind.
I mean, I did I don't know if Imentioned this, but I like one
that I really am kind of I'minterested in why I feel this
way when I hear it are songs,and David Byrne's a great
(27:04):
example, if I didn't already saythis, where he writes a lot of
songs that are in all majorchords.
Um, so like he might have an A,C, G, and E major all in the
like that may be the whole song.
What why do I like that, Kevin?
Why why is that appealing to myear?
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Right.
So, in other words, you ask thequestion right away, like, okay,
these chords don't necessarilyexist together in a key like we
would normally know in musictheory, but why is it that we
still like the way they soundand that it's interesting?
So you kind of go down a rabbithole with that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Absolutely.
What what do you call itwhenever you have a bunch of
chords that are all in major, Imean, like I said, A, C, G, and
E.
I mean, I don't even know whatthat even means to you.
I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_03 (27:57):
Yeah, no, that's fine.
I mean, basically in thatsituation, usually what it is is
that they're using what we wouldcall borrowed chords from the
either the parallel minor or arelative key or a closely
related key.
So, in other words, you'repulling in chords that weren't
necessarily in the key, but youmight have one little note
(28:18):
chromatically altered in thatchord.
Yes.
Um, to make because as you know,the difference between major and
minor is just a half-stepdifference in the middle note of
the triad.
So you can just alter that onemiddle note by a half step, and
all of a sudden you have a majorchord, and it's kind of just a
chromatic move.
It's kind of a borrow chordmove.
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Yeah.
Um spoken like spoken like theblacksmith.
I mean, only that was a realthat was that was a real
harmonious blacksmith answer.
So thank you for that.
Um I think we try and I'm I'mgoing a little bit full circle
in this, but I think I think forme, rather than saying musically
or or uh tonally, there is a akey of music or anything like
(29:01):
that that I really enjoy, Iwould say, and this is probably
coming uh as a drummer, um, it'sa more rhythmic thing for me.
I really, really enjoy um uniquerhythms and songs.
SPEAKER_03 (29:14):
All right, Mr.
Zlee.
That was a wonderful interview.
I really enjoyed it, and Ireally think my listeners are
gonna enjoy it and got a lot outof it.
Thank you so much for the timetoday, my friend.
Absolutely.
I'm just so glad you came on theprogram.
And look, let's go ahead andsend them off with one of your
fabulous compositions.
Go ahead and tell them what youwould like them to hear and how
(29:36):
they can find it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Awesome.
Well, thanks, Kevin.
I really appreciate the chanceto to uh join the conversation.
So, so yeah, thank you all forlistening.
Um, uh, you can find me bysearching Z-L-E-E.
Usually in all caps works bestin any of your favorite favorite
streaming prep platforms or onYouTube, and I think Kevy's
gonna drop some links uh outthere for us, but um this song.
(30:00):
Is off of my most recent album,It Was Never What You Thought.
So thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
Again, y'all, enjoy this tune by Zlee, and thanks
again for listening to theHarmonious Blacksmith.
And as always, I look forward tocontinuing this music theory
exploration with all of you.
Enjoy Zlee, and we will see youon the next go around.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
I go up in the unapproachable light of the sun.
It's all around me.
It's all around me.
The ridiculousness of the ridethat we all are on.
Oh yeah, it's all I see.
It's all that I can see.
I had a feeling today.
Past each of these easy ways.
(31:18):
It's gonna be okay.
Oh, it's all okay.
Dismissed it from my mind, apleasure from another time.
Oh, the world has changed.
Yeah, the world has changed.
I got these late stagepremonitions of elks and model
feels.
Seeking relevancy, I guess it'sbigger than me.
(31:40):
I guess nothing.
I do just treat me trauma.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the
Harmonious Blacksmith.
This is episode 25 of my series,and it is part two of a very
important interview with my goodfriend Zlee.
I hope you enjoyed part one lasttime, and you will certainly
enjoy part two.
(01:36):
Without further ado, let's havea conversation with Zlee.
Enjoy.
So my next question to you wouldbe one that might not be
expected, which is do you feelthat music theory has limited
your creativity?
And if so, did you have to finda way to push past that?
(01:58):
Like, in other words, once youhad the knowledge, does it
change the way you think aboutmusic forever?
Like you can't go back.
Does it limit your creativity inany way?
You can kind of comment that onthat however you want to.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't I wouldn't say
that it's limited my creativityin general.
And I think that's because Icame to it from a place of
creative hunger.
Like I got, but that's and I'mnot saying that's the right way.
Uh I just think that's onereason for me that um like I I
needed I needed it to in orderto express myself further.
SPEAKER_03 (02:33):
Um and it's not like so it was basically the exact
opposite.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Kind of kind of the exact opposite.
But one thing that I have foundthat's um that does happen
sometimes is that I will find aconcept that I get excited about
and a little obsessed with, andI like try to make something
work using it.
And I think key changes arereal, a really good and simple
example of that.
(02:58):
Like, oh, I you know, I I hearpeople say, I want to ask right,
I want there to be a key changein this song, you know.
Like that's something peoplestrive for.
And I recently saw a chart thatwas like key changes uh in songs
like going back over the last 50years, like the the vast
majority of songs on the radiohad a key change in it, and now
that's not true anymore.
(03:19):
Um, and so I think that was anexample of one, right?
I don't know why that's true, orI mean, I guess it's just fallen
out of favor or something, orwhy why do you think so?
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Honestly, I really think it's because of the music
industry itself, theentertainment industry.
Everything has to be simplifiedand simplified and simplified.
Basically, they're trying toshorten things, make them more
vanilla, make them simple, andjust kind of reproduce what
worked in the past.
Yeah, that's all they're tryingto do.
And a key change is somethingthat is unexpected that takes
(03:54):
the ear to another place.
So the more time that's gone by,they don't want to do that.
They don't it's deemed as it'skind of weird in their mind.
SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Like it's not as as palatable or something, yeah.
You know, because coming to itthrough a creative space was how
I got to theory.
Um, I it really fuels me more sothan uh it drains me.
So so theory really opens doorsfor my creativity rather than
the other way around.
SPEAKER_03 (04:20):
That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
But I think that like I I do get obsessed at
times with like in trying toincorporate a musically
interesting concept, right?
Um, saying like, oh, I want tochange the key in this song,
like just just because I want totry it.
Um, and and that's often when Iwant when I find myself like
(04:41):
it's almost like I'm trying toput the square peg in the round
hole a little bit.
Like, yeah, that's cool, butit's uh I'm just uh what's the
saying?
If everything is uh if you treatevery uh every tool like a
hammer, then everything is anail.
I I can't remember, but yeah,you know, it's like I'm
something like that.
I'm solving, I'm not solving theright problem, right?
(05:03):
And so that to me is when theoryisn't very useful, is like I'm
just trying to do it for thesake of doing it.
So that to me is uh the onlytime I think that it would limit
my creativity.
So I guess I guess I guess myadvice would be like use it when
it's useful, you know.
It's about uh how can it servewhat you're doing ultimately.
That's the whole value of musictheory, I think, to me.
SPEAKER_03 (05:26):
I love that.
Yeah, that's great.
And I I do think there is somevalue, especially when you're
first learning music theory.
Kind of, you know, you use thethe tool metaphor, you know.
Well, if you have a toolbox forthe first time and you don't
know what anything does, at somepoint you're gonna pull it all
out and you're gonna bang aroundand figure out what all of it
does.
And I think that's kind of whatyou're talking about.
(05:47):
I think there's value in that,the idea that you use the
example of a key change, which Ilike because, you know, you
know, what does a key change doin music?
It it takes you, it takes youradventure to a place you didn't
expect.
Yeah, that's what a key changedoes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
And I think coming coming to a song and saying, oh,
well, I should use a key changeso that I can accomplish that,
like maybe there's other ways toaccomplish that.
And that's when I think it woulduh it I wouldn't say it's
limited my creativity.
I said I think my uh my partialum knowledge of music theory
often is more of what limits mycreativity because the the key
(06:23):
change in that moment wouldn'tbe the only tool in my toolbox
to gain something uh unexpectedor new or different from a song.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
Oh, that's really good.
So music theory for the sake ofmusic theory or just for the
sake of exercise is one thing,but when you really want to put
it into your passion, whatyou're doing with your
songwriting or your performing,that should hopefully be a whole
different realm.
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
Yeah, I love that's basically what you're saying.
Totally.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Okay, so having given all that great advice that
you just gave to people outthere that might be looking to
use some music theory goingforward in the future, what
would you say would be the mostimportant concept in music
theory in the beginning?
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
Oh man, that's a hard one.
In the beginning.
SPEAKER_03 (07:13):
Um like in other words, what what is what is the
gateway to get off and runningwith music theory?
Like, I think a lot of it, theintimidation is like it's kind
of its own language and world,it's its own conceptual world.
And I think a lot of people areintimidated by the fact that
(07:34):
it's all this stuff and theyjust don't know how to start the
journey.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I think uh general likeliteracy of of the of scales and
understanding uh the language isreally hard.
And that's usually I think wherethe chapter one of any theory
book is is like hey, you need tounderstand right, like you need
to understand scales and sharpsand flats, and so like it makes
(08:00):
sense to uh to get into thatthat way.
Like it's it's obviously thebuilding block that things get
built on top of.
Um, but I think to me, and I andI and like adult education and
is uh is kind of my job.
I do it in a corporate setting,but like one of the things I
think of is um what is gonnagrab you?
(08:21):
What's the sticky thing?
And I I think one of the realsticky concepts for someone who
doesn't know anything abouttheory and and and you know, you
want them to you want to helpthem understand how it's like
meaningful, kind of going backto the whole intervals thing,
right?
Like, you know, bana, right?
And like helping themunderstand, like, hey, that's
literally uh, you know, thatthat that uh that interval right
(08:46):
there means something, and itmeans something else when you
hear it in the context of yourfavorite science fiction movie,
right?
And so um I I think that to meis uh a good one, it's a good
starting place.
It may not be like the most uheffective starting place um for
the education side of things,but I think that like that's one
to me that's real grabby.
(09:08):
It it gets people's attention.
SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
I like that.
So basically, my friend Zleehere, he's telling you scales
are the building blocks, andthat will of course um be in
accordance with everything I'vebeen talking about in my
podcast.
So that's probably good.
It's probably good that that weagree on that.
And um, the next thing for you,which I really love, is that you
(09:32):
mentioned the, you know, this isthe second time you've mentioned
intervals, which is great.
So, again, people out there, um,ear training is so important.
I will have more episodes on eartraining coming up, by the way.
I've done a couple if you wantto go back and check them out,
but um I will have more in thenear future because it is really
(09:52):
that important.
And again, I'll remind you Ididn't have the greatest ear or
the natural ear.
I did have to go through the eartraining, and I went through it
with much passion and um, youknow, just kind of awe of the
whole thing, and I really justhumbled myself and took it all
in.
And I I it helped me take mymusicianship to a level that I
(10:13):
never dreamed of.
And I always want to remindpeople that like I'm playing
music now that I thought wasimpossible before.
And a lot of that is yes, hardwork and technique, and I am a
trained musician, but at thesame time, putting the head
space to it, the music theoryand the concepts and things
(10:34):
really allowed me to take thingsto a really high level.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
I love what you just said, Kevin.
Okay, if I can add to that realquick, I was just gonna say that
like I love I love the way youjust frame that, and that's that
like this world of of music andmusic theory is it's like an
absolute um lifetime ofinformation and places to
explore.
Like I I just think it's there'suh so many ways to constantly be
(11:03):
improving and thinking andlearning that um even though
it's just these seven or eightnotes, um, you know, like it's
it there is so much uh if youcontinue to pour yourself into
it, right?
Like it it it gives back.
It's absolutely it's one ofthose what you uh you get what
you give um in terms of timespent on theory.
(11:23):
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
All right, Mr.
Zlee, you've given us a lot ofgood stuff so far.
My next question to you would behow do you use music theory to
intentionally evoke a certainemotion in a composition or even
a performance?
SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Oh man.
So I have released threedifferent albums at this point.
I'm actually about to to to rollout a fourth one, um, and
they're all kind of different.
SPEAKER_04 (11:50):
There you go.
So you are prolific.
I am prolific.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
I am if nothing else, I am generating a lot of
content over here.
But um Yes, you are.
But yeah, the the first twoalbums I I really did like uh
it's very singer-songwriter-y.
And the third one um is calledIt Was Never What You Thought,
and that one is uh very, very uhelectronically produced.
Like there's actually only onesong that has any guitar on it
at all for the most part.
(12:14):
Um it's uh it's done on akeyboard in in my office, you
know.
And so um uh so I think it wasonly when I really sat down in
in front of a piano keyboard forme personally, because I don't
think I have enough guitar chopsto really make it happen.
And and through the very likeslow and thoughtful process of
(12:35):
composing on my computer, was Iable to kind of bring enough um
theory into the to the processto really get a real dynamic uh
sort of palette.
Um, and so for example, there'sthere's one song on there uh
that I I had a lot of funmaking.
It's called Entertaining Ideas,and that's literally what I was
doing.
(12:55):
And so speaking of theory,right?
It was like a lot of these sortof um learnings bouncing around
in my head and and trying to uhkind of bring them to life.
Uh, but but it's throughcomposed, and I'm not sure if
that's language that you woulduse, Kevin.
I mean, the way I understandthat word meaning that the
sections of the song reallydon't repeat, so it kind of goes
(13:18):
from the A section to the B tothe C to the D.
Is that how you would describeit?
SPEAKER_04 (13:22):
Yep, that is exactly what through composed is.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
Yep.
It's like a G sharp minor, Csharp minor, E major, F sharp
major, and A major.
So I think that G sharp minorshould have been diminished, but
I need to go back and listen tomore harmonious blacksmith to
keep myself straight.
Anyway, the count of Yeah,that's for sure.
No, you're doing pretty good.
SPEAKER_03 (13:41):
I mean, it sounds like mostly A, but honestly, it
could just be, I mean, it soundslike a mode of A.
And that's fine.
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
And it might maybe that G sharp minor is a borrowed
chord or something, but yeah, itin my mind it's like a seven,
three, five, six, one.
Uh, you know, um, but in abasically.
In A.
Yeah.
Um, so starting on a seven'spretty weird.
Um, but then the rhythm of it isthis, it's like uh there's a
count to it that's uh one, two,one, two, three, one, two,
(14:12):
three, four, one, two, three,four, five, six, right, and and
it repeats in this really weirdway, but I'm playing it in a
four, four time signatures.
It was this really specifictension that it was holding.
And I think starting on theseven, like polyrhythms.
Yeah, weird polyrhythms andweird tensions from it starting
on the seven.
So, like, you know, you askedabout emo uh evoking emotion.
(14:34):
I I liked it, I wanted it tofeel uh like it was gonna move
somewhere, and so that's onewhere I really sat down and
said, okay, well, if I'm endingon the one, that's a major, and
how can I shift that into thisthis bass line?
And I'm I'm I'm doing a lotrhythmically to kind of get it
to a place.
So that's one if I uh if I wereto say, hey, go listen to some
(14:56):
Zli and and uh listen tosomething kind of interesting.
That one does a lot to likemove, it changes time
signatures.
I probably changes keys a timeor two.
It's I'm not doing somethingalways super intentional.
I think there's this littledance that we do when we start
to learn about theory and andlearn the academics of a
(15:18):
particular subject where likesome of it is purposeful and
some of it is happy accidents.
And so this this was a good onewhere I was good, I was doing a
little bit of both, a little bitof happy accidents, and then I'd
get to a place I'm like, well,what could I do here?
And I had just enough theory inmy pocket to kind of drive it to
that next point.
But yeah, so I'd uh uh hopefullyyour listeners will check out
that song.
That's one that's uh kind of funfor for me to have played with.
SPEAKER_03 (15:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
I will definitely have themcheck that out.
And I um I I want to comment onthat because I do always tell
students of mine all the time,I'm like, no matter how much
conceptual stuff or technique orhow much you're reading about or
watching or listening to, atsome point you have to just
(16:03):
treat your instrument likeyou're a kid with a toy, yeah.
And you kind of and that's whatyou're talking about about happy
accidents.
I like the way you put thatbecause happy accidents happen
when you treat your instrumentlike a toy, but the beauty of
what you're talking about is youreally benefit the most from
bringing as much to the table aspossible, I would think.
(16:24):
In other words, I think there'sa lot of people out there that
that have an idea that you'regonna ruin the purity of your
music if you overthink it withmusic theory.
I think there's a lot of peopleout there that that subscribe to
that and believe that that'strue, and that's why uh this
conversation is really importantto me and to people that are
(16:46):
listening, because um I just Ipersonally, and it sounds like
you're in accordance, which islike we disagree with that
wholeheartedly.
I I have fully integrated musictheory into what I've done, and
it has it has only just made mymusicianship and my you know
music career go through theroof.
I mean, it's only done wonderfulthings.
(17:09):
I mean, this is all reallyimportant to people who are
developing in music and know ofmusic theory and are deciding
whether it's important to themor not.
I can give a quick anecdote forme.
I mean, yes, I've been a proprofessional musician for a
while, and I'm really kind offading into more of just a music
educator these days, but I stillwant to be able to go to a
(17:31):
concert and turn off the teacherhat, turn off the music theory
analysis hatally, and be able tojust close my eyes and enjoy
music, right?
So, can you give our listenersany insight into how that works
for you?
Like when you are like, okay,I'm I'm using, I need to pull
(17:51):
out my music theory toolbox forthis, it's important.
And then other times when youmight say, you know what, let's
let's put that box down for nowand just kind of close our eyes
and be free.
Can you give us some words onthat?
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
I love that.
And um, you know, I go to a lotof concerts, I'm sure a lot of
uh you guys listening do, andI'm uh concerts are one of the
big ways that I enjoy music.
I I love live music.
Um I've got just a wall ofconcert posters around me.
Uh super excited to go see DavidByrne in concert here in about
(18:27):
two months in in Atlanta.
So I just I love, love livemusic.
And um, and David Byrne's maybea really good example of this,
right?
So um, you know, he as aperformer is is energy and it's
and it's uh he he puts on aspectacle and he that's always
been part of his hisperformance, his performance
(18:50):
art, and it's in enjoyable andit's interesting and it's
thought-provoking, and it'smeant to be this sort of a
little bit jarring, you know.
Um, and is he doing musicallycomplicated things?
Not always, you know, right?
Sometimes, right, sometimesreally simple stuff.
(19:12):
Um, now that's where I say tomyself, you know, like I like to
show up and enjoy the vibes, youknow.
I really enjoy the the energy ofa musician like that.
There's a bunch I listen to alot a lot of indie rock type
stuff, and uh as y'all as y'allcan probably tell from listening
to my music, but that's that'skind of um part of the enjoyment
(19:33):
for me is just the just thefeelings.
And um now there comes to apoint though when I um hear
something, it's usually that forme, where I will personally hear
something and I'll say, ah, thatwas really interesting.
Like that was an interestingchange, that was an interesting
rhythm.
Um they did they, you know,resolve to the one?
(19:55):
I don't I don't think theyresolved that, or did they
change keys, you know, and youand you feel it, and then you
start thinking about it.
That to me is is usually how Icome to it.
Now, that's probably because Ilisten to a lot of rock music,
you know, and like that's my MO.
I think if you are uh sure, youknow, uh more of a classical
listener or something like that,like you you might have a
(20:16):
tendency to come uh and listento those compositions and
performances through more of theear of that.
I I don't know.
I mean you can speak to thatbetter than me, but for me, it's
uh I like to I activate thetheory in my brain when I hear
something that is uh that needsme to.
And that's why I think thehaving that uh just enough
(20:38):
theory in my pocket now allowsme to like enjoy music better.
Um, so one of the bands that uhyou and I listened to, you know,
growing up was the band Fish,you know, and we really enjoyed
like musically what those guysdo.
And um, but there were othertimes when they were just just
fun, you know, and it's likethey're not doing anything big.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
But I love now being able to listen to some of their
stuff, for example, or or otherbands that have instrumentally
robust capabilities, jazzmusicians and stuff like that.
And and uh it's not just that itcreates the vibe, but you can
hear why they created the vibeand how they created the vibe.
And so that's where to methere's a real nice balance
(21:20):
between uh experiencing music asjust someone who's there bobbing
your head, but also the kind ofintellectual exercise of it.
Uh, like it's double theenjoyment if you if you know
enough theory to kind of knowwhat they're doing.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (21:36):
Awesome.
Wow, yeah, that was that was afantastic response.
I really yeah, and I mean peopleI think have varying degrees of
that, and that's why I'm alwayscurious to ask individuals about
it.
Um because I think uh, you know,there's certain people out there
that you know just wouldconsider themselves overthinkers
(21:56):
or OCD thinkers, you know.
I am about a lot of stuff,admittedly, but I always knew
that I wanted, you know, when Iwas a music theory student, you
know, I might have been thinkingabout it more live, but I think
as I got older, you know, youseparate the two things.
But I'm really interested inwhat you were saying earlier
about like the theory mindactivates when you hear
(22:19):
something that's interesting orunique, something that you're
curious about how it came to be,about how they were able to
evoke an emotion this way orthat, or or make music go in a
certain direction, kind of likea roller coaster ride going up
and down hills through a loop orsomething, and and you you kind
(22:41):
of just want to know how that'sconstructed and how it's put
together.
And so really it becomes acuriosity, right?
And then let's say somethinglike that happens at a concert,
you go home and explore it, andthen all of a sudden you have
hopefully another littlesharpened tool in your body.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Well, hey, I love the way you said that.
Uh, and something just popped inmy head.
It's like the more you spendtime on this, um, you know, I
think people would assume, andmaybe this is just my take,
right?
Uh, you know, my my hot take onmusic theory is I don't always
feel like I've got more answersum the more I study or learn
(23:20):
about theory.
But what I do usually have arebetter questions, you know.
Um and and like it helps mereally enjoy music.
So I'll experience somethinglike you said in a concert and
be like, why did why was that socool?
And then I'll go back and youknow, the internet can give you
anything now, and I'll hey whatwhat happens at the three-minute
(23:40):
mark in this song?
And you know, Chat GPT cansuddenly tell me, oh well, they
they went from this to this tothis to this.
And I'm like, aha, now Iunderstand.
So uh so I know that theyaccomplished it by doing
something.
I kind of can't quite put my andthat's just where I am in my
own.
Yeah, I hope that in another 10or 20 years from now I can hear
it and I can actually name itrather than having to go Google
(24:02):
it.
But to me, knowing enough abouttheory helps me understand like
what what to like go look for,like, and then that I I
translate that directly into myown composition, you know, it's
like, oh well, that was a reallycool effect.
I wonder how I could usesomething like that.
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Okay, so out of all the music theory concepts that
you have in your toolbox now, isthere a particular scale, chord
progression, mode, or just anyanything like that that you came
across along the way that madeyou feel especially connected to
it emotionally or maybenostalgic in a way?
(24:41):
Maybe it it evoked somethingfrom childhood or just connected
to you with some important lifeexperience, right?
So we're talking about is therea music theory concept?
Is there a song?
Is there something you heardthat really did that to you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
Oh, I mean, there are so many.
Uh you know, it's funny when Ithink about uh like the
emotional connection of music,I've got a lot of song examples,
but I I love the way you askedthat, which was like, is there a
particular scale or mode?
Um and I'm like, do people havefavorite modes?
But I guess some people do havefavorite modes, huh?
SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
They kind of do.
I mean, I I find that somesongwriters will favor certain
modes here and there.
Um, you know, and I may be ableto give some examples later, but
uh Well, I think for me, yeah,no go.
SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
No, I was just gonna say, I think, I mean, and I'm
that that does make sense.
I think for me, uh, as far aslike writing and composing goes,
it's usually uh keys that myvoice sounds the best in, you
know, and and that one makes Ithink a lot of sense.
So if if uh any of you guys areout here.
Hence the oh go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Hence getting the capo as well.
Oh, exactly.
Slap the capo on, it helps youfind your vocal round.
Absolutely.
So we were talk right, we weretalking about like the function
of the capo earlier, because youknow, my listeners know that I'm
a guitar player and I play allmy audio examples on guitar.
Um, so most of you probablyknow, but yeah, capo not only
(26:14):
changes the key, but the wholereason to do that most of the
time is for vocals.
Most of the time it is forvocals.
Well, absolutely makes a lot ofsense.
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
And it's super fun as uh, especially as like a new
guitar player.
And again, uh getting a capo maybe like the worst advice I could
ever give someone.
I don't know, but uh it reallyis a fun way just to be like,
oh, I'm doing somethingdifferent, and oh, my voice
sounds different when I sing itover this.
So there's a lot of learning, Ithink, that happens there.
(26:42):
Um, you know, to answer yourquestion about like I I wouldn't
say that I necessarily have likea mode in my mind or a scale or
chord progression in my mind.
I mean, I did I don't know if Imentioned this, but I like one
that I really am kind of I'minterested in why I feel this
way when I hear it are songs,and David Byrne's a great
(27:04):
example, if I didn't already saythis, where he writes a lot of
songs that are in all majorchords.
Um, so like he might have an A,C, G, and E major all in the
like that may be the whole song.
What why do I like that, Kevin?
Why why is that appealing to myear?
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Right.
So, in other words, you ask thequestion right away, like, okay,
these chords don't necessarilyexist together in a key like we
would normally know in musictheory, but why is it that we
still like the way they soundand that it's interesting?
So you kind of go down a rabbithole with that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Absolutely.
What what do you call itwhenever you have a bunch of
chords that are all in major, Imean, like I said, A, C, G, and
E.
I mean, I don't even know whatthat even means to you.
I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_03 (27:57):
Yeah, no, that's fine.
I mean, basically in thatsituation, usually what it is is
that they're using what we wouldcall borrowed chords from the
either the parallel minor or arelative key or a closely
related key.
So, in other words, you'repulling in chords that weren't
necessarily in the key, but youmight have one little note
(28:18):
chromatically altered in thatchord.
Yes.
Um, to make because as you know,the difference between major and
minor is just a half-stepdifference in the middle note of
the triad.
So you can just alter that onemiddle note by a half step, and
all of a sudden you have a majorchord, and it's kind of just a
chromatic move.
It's kind of a borrow chordmove.
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Yeah.
Um spoken like spoken like theblacksmith.
I mean, only that was a realthat was that was a real
harmonious blacksmith answer.
So thank you for that.
Um I think we try and I'm I'mgoing a little bit full circle
in this, but I think I think forme, rather than saying musically
or or uh tonally, there is a akey of music or anything like
(29:01):
that that I really enjoy, Iwould say, and this is probably
coming uh as a drummer, um, it'sa more rhythmic thing for me.
I really, really enjoy um uniquerhythms and songs.
SPEAKER_03 (29:14):
All right, Mr.
Zlee.
That was a wonderful interview.
I really enjoyed it, and Ireally think my listeners are
gonna enjoy it and got a lot outof it.
Thank you so much for the timetoday, my friend.
Absolutely.
I'm just so glad you came on theprogram.
And look, let's go ahead andsend them off with one of your
fabulous compositions.
Go ahead and tell them what youwould like them to hear and how
(29:36):
they can find it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Awesome.
Well, thanks, Kevin.
I really appreciate the chanceto to uh join the conversation.
So, so yeah, thank you all forlistening.
Um, uh, you can find me bysearching Z-L-E-E.
Usually in all caps works bestin any of your favorite favorite
streaming prep platforms or onYouTube, and I think Kevy's
gonna drop some links uh outthere for us, but um this song.
(30:00):
Is off of my most recent album,It Was Never What You Thought.
So thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
Again, y'all, enjoy this tune by Zlee, and thanks
again for listening to theHarmonious Blacksmith.
And as always, I look forward tocontinuing this music theory
exploration with all of you.
Enjoy Zlee, and we will see youon the next go around.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
I go up in the unapproachable light of the sun.
It's all around me.
It's all around me.
The ridiculousness of the ridethat we all are on.
Oh yeah, it's all I see.
It's all that I can see.
I had a feeling today.
Past each of these easy ways.
(31:18):
It's gonna be okay.
Oh, it's all okay.
Dismissed it from my mind, apleasure from another time.
Oh, the world has changed.
Yeah, the world has changed.
I got these late stagepremonitions of elks and model
feels.
Seeking relevancy, I guess it'sbigger than me.
(31:40):
I guess nothing.
I do just treat me trauma.
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