May 31, 2025 • 13 mins
This recap episode unpacks a conversation between Joe Rogan and Bono, the lead singer of the band U2. The discussion touches upon Bono's recent memoir and accompanying stage show, describing its unconventional and deeply personal nature. Key themes explored include the role of authenticity and vulnerability in art, the complex dynamics of relationships, particularly within a band and with family, and the profound impact of music as a spiritual and communal force. The conversation also examines America's role in the world, its historical ideals versus current realities, and the significance of humour and free speech in confronting difficult truths and fostering understanding.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. This is the deep dive.
And like we always do, we're tailoring this one just for you.
Today we're digging into a really fascinating conversation.
Yeah, a really wide-ranging one between Bono and Joe Rogan.
We've got the transcripts, the notes.
It's a lot to unpack. It really is.
They covered so much ground. Everything from you know where
(00:20):
Bono's songs come from, his family stuff.
Right, all the way through to America.
What it means and this big search for meaning in life.
So our mission, as always, is tokind of guide you through all
that, pull out the key insights,the connections you might miss,
the stuff that really jumps out.Basically save you the four
hours but still get you the goodstuff.
Exactly. Think of us as your navigators
(00:42):
for this chat. OK, so where should we start?
How about with his recent work, that whole idea of performance
versus vulnerability? Yeah, that feels central,
especially with his film and stage show Surrender.
He had some really vivid ways ofdescribing it.
Like a fever dream, Yeah. Fever Dream Wild, all black and
white and it weaves together thesong origins with like super
(01:06):
personal stories. And he talked about this
tension, right? Performing something so
personal. There was that story he told
Rogan. Oh, the one about the audience
reaction versus rehearsals. Exactly.
A part of the show got this hugereaction, but his wife Ollie,
who saw it in rehearsal, she hadn't reacted much.
Right. She turned to him and said
something like, oh, that's the that I didn't get in the
rehearsals. It's funny.
(01:27):
It just shows how having an audience there completely
changes it. That act of being vulnerable
becomes something else. Well, and performance isn't just
about showing yourself, is it? It can be about protecting
yourself, too. Rogan brought that up.
Yeah, and the whole real versus manufactured art thing.
That great music, the stuff thatreally gets into your cells, it
(01:48):
feels authentic because it feelslike it's not hiding.
Totally. And Bono actually admitted his
famous swagger. That rock star thing would be a
shield. Yeah, exactly a shield.
He told that amazing story aboutthe Super Bowl after 911.
Oh, right, with the faulty earpiece.
Yeah. Feeling totally exposed and just
deciding to lean into it, givingit so much chin as he put it
(02:10):
like pure defense mechanism. But then with surrender, the
whole point was the opposite, hesaid.
It was about taking off my armor.
Removing the shield. Pursuing that authenticity, but
through like honest exposure, not just projection.
And it connects to how they talked about music itself,
doesn't it? Is something primal, spiritual
almost? Yeah, he called it the language
(02:31):
of the spirit. He talked about humans being
creatures of awe, you know, drawn to wonder.
And music taps into that for sure.
Both of them talked about that shared feeling at concerts,
using phrases like going to church in the dark or a.
Religious experience. Right.
And Rogan brought up that U2 performance on Jimmy Fallon.
(02:53):
Ordinary Love. As a perfect example of that
collective lift, that feeling when music just connects
everyone. Yeah, that sheer transcendence,
it's powerful stuff. And you know, often that ability
to connect or even just to understand yourself, it's shaped
by who came before. Which led them into talking
about mentors, family. Bono talked quite a bit about
(03:13):
wanting the blessing of the older generation.
Specifically male singers he really looked up to.
Yeah, the big ones. Sinatra, Dylan Pavarotti.
And some of those stories are just wild.
Oh totally, the Sinatra stuff they talked about his voice
changing. That crazy mug shot from the
seduction arrests. Yeah, then Bono learning from
(03:34):
him to read lyrics like an actor.
Right, and the funny bits too, like Sinatra thinking Under My
Chicken was a real song title from Japan.
Because of the translation, yeah.
And just sending him Cartier watches out of the blue.
Incredible. And the Dylan story, That's a
classic. Bono trying to improvise blowing
in the wind. And totally bombing.
Yeah, but Dylan was so cool about it.
(03:54):
Just everything. I make them up all the time.
Nothing's fixed in time. Kind of generous, really.
Totally. And then Pavarotti.
Apparently the rest of you two were worried when they heard a
camera crew might show up. Which of course one did.
Naturally, but they talked aboutPavarotti really wanting to
bring opera to more people, cross divides and that funny
line calling the housekeeper is God at home.
(04:17):
But Bono revealed something deeper there, didn't he?
Yeah, that he kind of sought outPavarotti partly as a way to
connect with his own father. Wow, OK, that adds a whole other
layer because his relationship with his dad sounded, well,
complicated. Definitely complex.
He talked about blaming his father psychologically for his
mother's death when he was a kid.
It. Was just heavy stuff.
(04:38):
Yeah, and how kind of paradoxically, he really learned
to 1st like him and then even love him by performing him.
By playing him every night in the show.
Right. It's like art becoming this
space to process that history and find some kind of peace.
Even after he's gone. And then there's that other
story, the one about his dad meeting Princess Diana.
Oh yeah, that was amazing, Bono saying.
(05:00):
He felt like 800 years of oppression gone in a second,
just in that handshake, that moment.
He called his family dynamic an opera or soap opera.
Full of big feelings. It definitely grounds these
larger than life figures, you know, reminds you they have
these intense personal stories driving them and.
Speaking of big dynamics, big histories, the conversation took
(05:21):
a real turn towards America. Yeah, and Bono has this very
specific take on it, not just asa country, but as an idea.
An idea rooted in rebellion, right?
Sticking it to the bully was hisphrase.
Pointing out the signers of the Declaration were basically
committing treason. High stakes.
He didn't ignore the contradictions, though.
Mentioned slavery. No, he acknowledged that, but he
(05:42):
still sounded kind of optimistic.
Like America has still been written.
Like a song that's not finished.Exactly.
And he sees himself as this annoying fan, holding up the
liner notes, the declaration, saying, hey, remember this, this
is the goal. Any point to where America has
lived up to that globally, specifically the AIDS pandemic
(06:02):
fight PEPFAR. Yeah, highlighting the
bipartisan success there, savingwhat, 26,000,000 lives, he said.
Calling it the biggest health crisis in 600 years since the
plague. And he shared that advice from
Warren Buffett, which was fascinating.
About how to ask America for help.
Yeah, don't ask for something easy.
Ask for something complicated and appeal to its desire for
(06:25):
greatness, not just its conscience.
Buffett apparently said Americans want to be great, so
give them the chance to be the cavalry.
Ties into that story about the truck driver.
Yeah. Hearing about AIDS in Africa and
just saying, OK, I'll drive a truck there.
That impulse that. Cavalry impulse.
But they did also touch, on the flip side, the concerns about
(06:45):
recent foreign aid cuts. Right, acknowledging the
arguments about waste or cost. But focusing on the human
impact, Bono used that really stark framing about maybe having
to choose which child to pull off.
The IV's just showing the potential real world
consequences based on what the sources discussed.
And Rogan brought in his perspective, too, about America
(07:05):
having these periods of overcorrection.
Mentioning things like COVID lockdowns, censorship as
examples he saw. And the way they discussed it,
it was more about presenting those viewpoints from the
source, not really taking sides on those hot button issues, just
relaying the takes shared in theconversation.
Right, keeping it focused on what they discussed.
(07:25):
Which kind of leads into the next bit about navigating all
these different viewpoints, ideology connection.
Yeah, that came up strongly. Bonus called ideology and
fundamentalism a form of cowardice leaning like an
unwillingness to actually listento other ideas, just sticking
rigidly to your own thing. And they talked about how, in
the US especially, it feels likepeople are being deliberately
(07:47):
played against each other. Yeah, fueled by bots, social
media stuff that just cranks up the volume on the divide between
the left and the right, which ismostly bullshit.
That was his phrase. Yeah, that cuts through.
Rogan had his take on free speech too.
Right. The idea that letting the
ugliness out actually allows opponents to rise up.
He used Martin Luther King Junior as an example.
(08:09):
Facing that overt racism and becoming this powerful symbol
because of it, Yeah. But maybe the most striking
story in this whole section was Darrell Davis.
Oh man, yeah, the black musicianwho befriended KKK members.
Intentionally sought them out and just by being human, being
kind, being a great human, as Rogan put it, he convinced over
(08:29):
200 of them to leave the clan. It's just unbelievable.
It really pushes back on the idea that you can't reach people
caught in those extremes. Absolutely, and they mentioned
humor too as a tool. Right Bono talking about mocking
the KKK costumes. Because they did not like being
laughed at. Laughter can kind of deflate
that rigid certainty. They also touched on why people
(08:51):
get drawn into these things in the 1st place.
That human need to be part of something.
Yeah. Whether it's a gang, A-Team,
even America is a team, and how that makes people, maybe
especially young people, vulnerable to simple ideas.
Easy answer. Exactly.
And there was that brief mention, again handled
impartially, about the Gaza conflict.
Bono's view from the source was that fundamentalists on both
(09:14):
sides were holding people hostage.
Just highlighting how that rigidideology traps everyone.
OK, so shifting gears again. But it all connects.
They went pretty deep into philosophy, spirituality,
searching for the way. Right, Bono brought up Richard
Rohr. The Franciscan Friar?
Yeah, and his idea of order disorder?
(09:37):
Reorder. Explain that again.
It's like a path. You start with your current
understanding, your order. Then something happens, a
crisis, a challenge that throws it into disorder.
OK. And if you work through that
disorder, learn from it, you arrive at a new, deeper
understanding. Reorder applies to faith, life,
anything really. Gotcha, and they talked about
good and evil too, referencing abook.
(09:58):
Yeah, Bulgakov's master in the market, Margarita.
The idea that evil isn't always obvious.
Like some monster. It could be insidious, subtle.
And Bono shared a really personal insight, didn't he,
after his heart surgery? Yeah, realizing that his biggest
opponent was actually yourself. Himself.
Making peace with myself became the priority.
Which leads right into that concept of the way from Miyamoto
(10:21):
Musashi, the samurai. Once you understand the way
broadly, you can see it in all things that quote.
That's the one. It's about finding this core
discipline, this balance and purity.
That you can apply to everything.
Yeah, being a father, writing music, just living.
Intense focus. And they connected Musashi's
way, which sounds very disciplined, to spiritual ideas,
(10:42):
even Jesus. Yeah, like Jesus saying I am the
way framing it not just religiously, but as this
principle of humility, service, discipline and surrender.
Surrender to something bigger, even if as they growledge that
word. Surrender can be kind of loaded
or ruined for some people. Right.
It's about the core meaning, discipline, service.
(11:03):
And this ties into another idea.They floated consilience, which
like the convergence of everything, all different
fields, art forms, sciences, eventually leading toward the
common point of understanding a shared truth.
Everything comes together on a point.
Basically, and bringing it back to art and music, the idea that
great art can actually shift collective consciousness.
(11:23):
Especially for younger people, nudge things in a better
direction by tapping into that shared sense of awe again.
And then right at the end, they brought it back to U2 itself.
How has the band lasted so long?Collaboration, right?
Sharing everything. Yeah, that story about McCartney
breaking the chocolate bar for Lennon, starting with half and
maintaining those horizontal relationships, resisting the
(11:46):
stuff that tears bands and relationships apart.
Bono even had that funny line about feeling like the real
owners are going to come someday.
That humility. And Rogan saw a parallel with
his comedy Mothership Club, creating that same kind of
collaborative gang. This is our place focused on
everyone succeeding together, yeah.
And the final note was almost spiritual, again linking
(12:07):
generosity, whether it's US foreign aid or personal tithing,
to this idea that you can't out give God.
Suggesting that giving, in whatever form, brings back a
bigger blessing. So wow, when you pull back, you
see this incredible journey theytook in that conversation.
Yeah, from the guts it takes to be vulnerable on stage.
Through family history mentors the whole complicated identity
(12:29):
of America. Dealing with division finding
connection. And then this deep dive into
philosophy, spirituality, finding the way.
It really shows how these two guys, Bono and Rogen, coming
from pretty different worlds. Found so much common ground
talking about these. Really fundamental human things.
What shapes us, What drives us? What connects us, What pulls us
apart? Yeah, digging through the source
(12:50):
material, you really see this rich tapestry emerge.
A personal struggle is art, global impact, philosophy, it
all feels linked by that search.That search for the way, for
meaning, for connection, for moments that feel true.
It definitely leaves you think, you know, building on that idea
of America as a song still beingwritten or music as this path to
(13:13):
connection, maybe that search itself, that search for the way
for those moments of greatness in life, in art, in
relationships. Maybe that is the big journey
we're all on. And it seems like from their
conversation, it takes both things the courage to be
vulnerable, to drop the shield. And also the commitment to
resist all those forces trying to pull us apart.
(13:34):
A powerful thought to end on. Absolutely.
Well, thanks for joining us on this deep dive.
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. This is the deep dive.
And like we always do, we're tailoring this one just for you.
Today we're digging into a really fascinating conversation.
Yeah, a really wide-ranging one between Bono and Joe Rogan.
We've got the transcripts, the notes.
It's a lot to unpack. It really is.
They covered so much ground. Everything from you know where
(00:20):
Bono's songs come from, his family stuff.
Right, all the way through to America.
What it means and this big search for meaning in life.
So our mission, as always, is tokind of guide you through all
that, pull out the key insights,the connections you might miss,
the stuff that really jumps out.Basically save you the four
hours but still get you the goodstuff.
Exactly. Think of us as your navigators
(00:42):
for this chat. OK, so where should we start?
How about with his recent work, that whole idea of performance
versus vulnerability? Yeah, that feels central,
especially with his film and stage show Surrender.
He had some really vivid ways ofdescribing it.
Like a fever dream, Yeah. Fever Dream Wild, all black and
white and it weaves together thesong origins with like super
(01:06):
personal stories. And he talked about this
tension, right? Performing something so
personal. There was that story he told
Rogan. Oh, the one about the audience
reaction versus rehearsals. Exactly.
A part of the show got this hugereaction, but his wife Ollie,
who saw it in rehearsal, she hadn't reacted much.
Right. She turned to him and said
something like, oh, that's the that I didn't get in the
rehearsals. It's funny.
(01:27):
It just shows how having an audience there completely
changes it. That act of being vulnerable
becomes something else. Well, and performance isn't just
about showing yourself, is it? It can be about protecting
yourself, too. Rogan brought that up.
Yeah, and the whole real versus manufactured art thing.
That great music, the stuff thatreally gets into your cells, it
(01:48):
feels authentic because it feelslike it's not hiding.
Totally. And Bono actually admitted his
famous swagger. That rock star thing would be a
shield. Yeah, exactly a shield.
He told that amazing story aboutthe Super Bowl after 911.
Oh, right, with the faulty earpiece.
Yeah. Feeling totally exposed and just
deciding to lean into it, givingit so much chin as he put it
(02:10):
like pure defense mechanism. But then with surrender, the
whole point was the opposite, hesaid.
It was about taking off my armor.
Removing the shield. Pursuing that authenticity, but
through like honest exposure, not just projection.
And it connects to how they talked about music itself,
doesn't it? Is something primal, spiritual
almost? Yeah, he called it the language
(02:31):
of the spirit. He talked about humans being
creatures of awe, you know, drawn to wonder.
And music taps into that for sure.
Both of them talked about that shared feeling at concerts,
using phrases like going to church in the dark or a.
Religious experience. Right.
And Rogan brought up that U2 performance on Jimmy Fallon.
(02:53):
Ordinary Love. As a perfect example of that
collective lift, that feeling when music just connects
everyone. Yeah, that sheer transcendence,
it's powerful stuff. And you know, often that ability
to connect or even just to understand yourself, it's shaped
by who came before. Which led them into talking
about mentors, family. Bono talked quite a bit about
(03:13):
wanting the blessing of the older generation.
Specifically male singers he really looked up to.
Yeah, the big ones. Sinatra, Dylan Pavarotti.
And some of those stories are just wild.
Oh totally, the Sinatra stuff they talked about his voice
changing. That crazy mug shot from the
seduction arrests. Yeah, then Bono learning from
(03:34):
him to read lyrics like an actor.
Right, and the funny bits too, like Sinatra thinking Under My
Chicken was a real song title from Japan.
Because of the translation, yeah.
And just sending him Cartier watches out of the blue.
Incredible. And the Dylan story, That's a
classic. Bono trying to improvise blowing
in the wind. And totally bombing.
Yeah, but Dylan was so cool about it.
(03:54):
Just everything. I make them up all the time.
Nothing's fixed in time. Kind of generous, really.
Totally. And then Pavarotti.
Apparently the rest of you two were worried when they heard a
camera crew might show up. Which of course one did.
Naturally, but they talked aboutPavarotti really wanting to
bring opera to more people, cross divides and that funny
line calling the housekeeper is God at home.
(04:17):
But Bono revealed something deeper there, didn't he?
Yeah, that he kind of sought outPavarotti partly as a way to
connect with his own father. Wow, OK, that adds a whole other
layer because his relationship with his dad sounded, well,
complicated. Definitely complex.
He talked about blaming his father psychologically for his
mother's death when he was a kid.
It. Was just heavy stuff.
(04:38):
Yeah, and how kind of paradoxically, he really learned
to 1st like him and then even love him by performing him.
By playing him every night in the show.
Right. It's like art becoming this
space to process that history and find some kind of peace.
Even after he's gone. And then there's that other
story, the one about his dad meeting Princess Diana.
Oh yeah, that was amazing, Bono saying.
(05:00):
He felt like 800 years of oppression gone in a second,
just in that handshake, that moment.
He called his family dynamic an opera or soap opera.
Full of big feelings. It definitely grounds these
larger than life figures, you know, reminds you they have
these intense personal stories driving them and.
Speaking of big dynamics, big histories, the conversation took
(05:21):
a real turn towards America. Yeah, and Bono has this very
specific take on it, not just asa country, but as an idea.
An idea rooted in rebellion, right?
Sticking it to the bully was hisphrase.
Pointing out the signers of the Declaration were basically
committing treason. High stakes.
He didn't ignore the contradictions, though.
Mentioned slavery. No, he acknowledged that, but he
(05:42):
still sounded kind of optimistic.
Like America has still been written.
Like a song that's not finished.Exactly.
And he sees himself as this annoying fan, holding up the
liner notes, the declaration, saying, hey, remember this, this
is the goal. Any point to where America has
lived up to that globally, specifically the AIDS pandemic
(06:02):
fight PEPFAR. Yeah, highlighting the
bipartisan success there, savingwhat, 26,000,000 lives, he said.
Calling it the biggest health crisis in 600 years since the
plague. And he shared that advice from
Warren Buffett, which was fascinating.
About how to ask America for help.
Yeah, don't ask for something easy.
Ask for something complicated and appeal to its desire for
(06:25):
greatness, not just its conscience.
Buffett apparently said Americans want to be great, so
give them the chance to be the cavalry.
Ties into that story about the truck driver.
Yeah. Hearing about AIDS in Africa and
just saying, OK, I'll drive a truck there.
That impulse that. Cavalry impulse.
But they did also touch, on the flip side, the concerns about
(06:45):
recent foreign aid cuts. Right, acknowledging the
arguments about waste or cost. But focusing on the human
impact, Bono used that really stark framing about maybe having
to choose which child to pull off.
The IV's just showing the potential real world
consequences based on what the sources discussed.
And Rogan brought in his perspective, too, about America
(07:05):
having these periods of overcorrection.
Mentioning things like COVID lockdowns, censorship as
examples he saw. And the way they discussed it,
it was more about presenting those viewpoints from the
source, not really taking sides on those hot button issues, just
relaying the takes shared in theconversation.
Right, keeping it focused on what they discussed.
(07:25):
Which kind of leads into the next bit about navigating all
these different viewpoints, ideology connection.
Yeah, that came up strongly. Bonus called ideology and
fundamentalism a form of cowardice leaning like an
unwillingness to actually listento other ideas, just sticking
rigidly to your own thing. And they talked about how, in
the US especially, it feels likepeople are being deliberately
(07:47):
played against each other. Yeah, fueled by bots, social
media stuff that just cranks up the volume on the divide between
the left and the right, which ismostly bullshit.
That was his phrase. Yeah, that cuts through.
Rogan had his take on free speech too.
Right. The idea that letting the
ugliness out actually allows opponents to rise up.
He used Martin Luther King Junior as an example.
(08:09):
Facing that overt racism and becoming this powerful symbol
because of it, Yeah. But maybe the most striking
story in this whole section was Darrell Davis.
Oh man, yeah, the black musicianwho befriended KKK members.
Intentionally sought them out and just by being human, being
kind, being a great human, as Rogan put it, he convinced over
(08:29):
200 of them to leave the clan. It's just unbelievable.
It really pushes back on the idea that you can't reach people
caught in those extremes. Absolutely, and they mentioned
humor too as a tool. Right Bono talking about mocking
the KKK costumes. Because they did not like being
laughed at. Laughter can kind of deflate
that rigid certainty. They also touched on why people
(08:51):
get drawn into these things in the 1st place.
That human need to be part of something.
Yeah. Whether it's a gang, A-Team,
even America is a team, and how that makes people, maybe
especially young people, vulnerable to simple ideas.
Easy answer. Exactly.
And there was that brief mention, again handled
impartially, about the Gaza conflict.
Bono's view from the source was that fundamentalists on both
(09:14):
sides were holding people hostage.
Just highlighting how that rigidideology traps everyone.
OK, so shifting gears again. But it all connects.
They went pretty deep into philosophy, spirituality,
searching for the way. Right, Bono brought up Richard
Rohr. The Franciscan Friar?
Yeah, and his idea of order disorder?
(09:37):
Reorder. Explain that again.
It's like a path. You start with your current
understanding, your order. Then something happens, a
crisis, a challenge that throws it into disorder.
OK. And if you work through that
disorder, learn from it, you arrive at a new, deeper
understanding. Reorder applies to faith, life,
anything really. Gotcha, and they talked about
good and evil too, referencing abook.
(09:58):
Yeah, Bulgakov's master in the market, Margarita.
The idea that evil isn't always obvious.
Like some monster. It could be insidious, subtle.
And Bono shared a really personal insight, didn't he,
after his heart surgery? Yeah, realizing that his biggest
opponent was actually yourself. Himself.
Making peace with myself became the priority.
Which leads right into that concept of the way from Miyamoto
(10:21):
Musashi, the samurai. Once you understand the way
broadly, you can see it in all things that quote.
That's the one. It's about finding this core
discipline, this balance and purity.
That you can apply to everything.
Yeah, being a father, writing music, just living.
Intense focus. And they connected Musashi's
way, which sounds very disciplined, to spiritual ideas,
(10:42):
even Jesus. Yeah, like Jesus saying I am the
way framing it not just religiously, but as this
principle of humility, service, discipline and surrender.
Surrender to something bigger, even if as they growledge that
word. Surrender can be kind of loaded
or ruined for some people. Right.
It's about the core meaning, discipline, service.
(11:03):
And this ties into another idea.They floated consilience, which
like the convergence of everything, all different
fields, art forms, sciences, eventually leading toward the
common point of understanding a shared truth.
Everything comes together on a point.
Basically, and bringing it back to art and music, the idea that
great art can actually shift collective consciousness.
(11:23):
Especially for younger people, nudge things in a better
direction by tapping into that shared sense of awe again.
And then right at the end, they brought it back to U2 itself.
How has the band lasted so long?Collaboration, right?
Sharing everything. Yeah, that story about McCartney
breaking the chocolate bar for Lennon, starting with half and
maintaining those horizontal relationships, resisting the
(11:46):
stuff that tears bands and relationships apart.
Bono even had that funny line about feeling like the real
owners are going to come someday.
That humility. And Rogan saw a parallel with
his comedy Mothership Club, creating that same kind of
collaborative gang. This is our place focused on
everyone succeeding together, yeah.
And the final note was almost spiritual, again linking
(12:07):
generosity, whether it's US foreign aid or personal tithing,
to this idea that you can't out give God.
Suggesting that giving, in whatever form, brings back a
bigger blessing. So wow, when you pull back, you
see this incredible journey theytook in that conversation.
Yeah, from the guts it takes to be vulnerable on stage.
Through family history mentors the whole complicated identity
(12:29):
of America. Dealing with division finding
connection. And then this deep dive into
philosophy, spirituality, finding the way.
It really shows how these two guys, Bono and Rogen, coming
from pretty different worlds. Found so much common ground
talking about these. Really fundamental human things.
What shapes us, What drives us? What connects us, What pulls us
apart? Yeah, digging through the source
(12:50):
material, you really see this rich tapestry emerge.
A personal struggle is art, global impact, philosophy, it
all feels linked by that search.That search for the way, for
meaning, for connection, for moments that feel true.
It definitely leaves you think, you know, building on that idea
of America as a song still beingwritten or music as this path to
(13:13):
connection, maybe that search itself, that search for the way
for those moments of greatness in life, in art, in
relationships. Maybe that is the big journey
we're all on. And it seems like from their
conversation, it takes both things the courage to be
vulnerable, to drop the shield. And also the commitment to
resist all those forces trying to pull us apart.
(13:34):
A powerful thought to end on. Absolutely.
Well, thanks for joining us on this deep dive.
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