August 6, 2025 • 15 mins
This recap episode unpacks Joe Rogan Experience #2360, featuring author Caroline Fraser. The discussion centres on Fraser's book, "Murderland," which explores a potential correlation between lead pollution and the rise of serial killers and violent crime in the Pacific Northwest during the 1970s. Fraser details her research, linking industrial smelting operations and leaded petrol to increased aggression and cognitive issues in exposed populations, citing infamous serial killers like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway as potential examples. The conversation also expands on the broader history and impact of corporate environmental contamination, discussing the knowing suppression of evidence by companies and the long-term, devastating effects on human health and the environment, exemplified by historical events like the 1952 Great Smog of London and the widespread use of DDT.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joe Rogan Re Tap.We're doing a special deep dive
today into some really compelling material and
sometimes honestly pretty unsettling stuff.
Definitely unsettling. Our mission here is to unpack a
really unconventional theory, and frankly, it's quite
disturbing. It's about these hidden links
between environmental pollution and violent crime.
(00:21):
Specifically serial killers, which is just wow.
Exactly. You shared excerpts with us from
JRE episode hashtag 2360 with Caroline Frazier.
She's the author of Murderland. And this deep dive, it's
probably going to challenge someof your assumptions about human
behavior, maybe even the forces shaping our world.
It certainly challenges conventional thinking.
(00:42):
OK, so let's dive right in Caroline Frazier's book
Murderland. It's not just theory, is it?
It tackles this question she's apparently been thinking about
since she was a kid. Right, growing up in the Pacific
Northwest in the 70s. And the question was why?
Why were there so many serial killers emerging from that
specific region back then? Her research LED her down this
(01:03):
well, this rabbit hole, to a premise that sounds wild at
first, a connection between leadpollution and heightened
aggression, violence. And she goes so far as to link
it to the rise of serial killersthemselves.
It's a really bold claim. It is, but her work lays out
some compelling evidence, doesn't it?
Absolutely. And what's really interesting is
(01:23):
how her own life story kind of intersected with this discovery.
Oh yeah, How so? Well, she talks about living in
Santa Fe, NM Apparently it had apretty high homicide rate
itself. And she was thinking about
moving back to the Pacific Northwest, looking at real
estate, you know, and she saw this listing on the Shawn Island
in Puget Sound, undeveloped property.
(01:44):
And the listing had this little note.
Arsenic remediation may be necessary.
Just like that, a small detail. Exactly.
But it sparked something her curiosity.
It LED her to start researching this notorious lead and copper
smelter in Tacoma. The Asarco smelter.
American Smelting and Refining Company.
That's the one. It had been operating since,
what, the late 1880s, 1890s, just pumping out pollution for
(02:09):
decades. And this is where it gets really
chilling, connecting back to theserial killer angle.
Yeah. Frazier realized that some
really notorious killers like Ted Bundy.
And Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer.
Both of them grew up right therein Tacoma during the smelter's
peak years of operation. Wow.
But she didn't just stop it likea geographical coincidence, she
(02:30):
actually found GIS maps. Geographic information systems,
right? Yeah.
These maps let her look up specific addresses, including
Ted Bundys actual childhood home.
No way. Yes, and she could see the
documented levels of lead and arsenic pollution right there in
their yards. So it wasn't just a theory, it
was measurable contamination where they grew up.
(02:51):
Literal, quantifiable contamination.
It really makes you think about how much our environment shapes
us, doesn't it? It absolutely does.
And connecting this to the bigger picture, I mean, serial
killers are the extreme, right, the most extreme, horrifying end
of the spectrum, Yeah. But most of the research on lead
exposure looks at broader societal impacts.
And these long term studies, they consistently show this
(03:14):
strong link even with really small amounts of lead exposure.
To things like learning problems.
Problems. ADHD.
Juvenile delinquency, adult crime rates too, and even
measurable drops in IQ across populations.
So it's not just about extreme violence, it's this general drag
on cognitive function and impulse control.
Exactly. It affects society much more
(03:36):
widely. That is staggering, especially
when you think how common lead exposure must have been.
So OK, smelters were one big source.
A major localized source, yes. But Frazier's work also looks at
something even more widespread, right Leaded gasoline.
Oh, absolutely. The book calls it a horrific
experiment conducted on, well, generations of people.
An experiment they knew the risks of.
Apparently so. Companies like Standard Oil,
(03:58):
DuPont, they knew the dangers back in the 1920s and 30s.
Really. That early.
Yeah, medical doctors actually warned them, said this would
expose people to unprecedented levels of lead, dangerous
levels. But they chose it anyway over
other options. Over alternatives like ethanol
and the reason ethanol couldn't be patented, it wouldn't be as
(04:20):
profitable. Wow, so the book frames this as
a a massive moral failure A. Profound moral failure, yeah,
even mortaring on evil is how it's described, considering they
knew the potential harm. That's quite an accusation, but
based on the evidence presented.It paints a pretty damning
picture of corporate decision making.
And it didn't stop there. The book talks about efforts to,
(04:43):
you know, whitewash their reputations afterwards.
Like cleaning up? Their image exactly.
A bit like Alfred Nobel and the Nobel Prize, right?
Inventor of dynamite trying to fix his Merchant of Death image.
Interesting parallel. And the book brings up Thomas
Midgley. He's almost this tragic figure
in it all. Who was he?
He invented both the leaded gas formula and CS ES, the
(05:03):
chlorofluorocarbons. The ones that blew a hole in the
ozone layer? Seriously.
The very same. And despite the, you know,
catastrophic consequences later on, he got the highest medal
from the American Chemistry Association.
Unbelievable. And get this, he died in this
bizarre accident involving A pulley system he invented for
himself because he had polio, and some people speculate the
(05:26):
polio itself might have been linked to lead exposure from his
own work. It's just layers of irony there.
That's incredible, a man celebrated for inventions that
ended up poisoning people and the planet.
It really shows how progress cango wrong when profits the main
driver. It's a chilling example for
sure. So, OK, we have this picture of
widespread lead exposure, but was the Pacific Northwest really
(05:50):
disproportionately affected in terms of serial killers?
The book argues yes, finding an extraordinary number
concentrated there. And beyond just the serial
killers, the overall violent crime rate.
In Tacoma specifically, it just skyrocketed in the mid 70s.
Which matched a national trend, right?
Crime was rising everywhere in the 70s and 80s.
It did align with the national trend, and of course there are
(06:11):
other theories for that nationalrise.
Like the baby boomers, coming ofage, economic uncertainty,
Vietnam. Exactly.
All those factors are discussed,but the science around
environmental toxins, especiallylead, offers this really
compelling additional layer and often overlooked factor.
Right, it doesn't have to be theonly cause, but a significant
(06:31):
contributing 1. Precisely.
And the research points not justto lead but also things like
cadmium, zinc, manganese, all part of this particular
pollution from industry. And these heavy metals, they can
get into the brain. Yeah, they can cross the blood
brain barrier relatively easily,and that's linked to all sorts
of neurological problems, healthissues, heart problems,
(06:53):
dementia, Alzheimer's, even ALS.Wow.
And crucially, the statistical analysis shows this really
strong correlation. You overlay the charts and the
rise in airborne LED in the mid 70s lines up incredibly closely
with the rise in violent crime. It's not just a coma, either.
No, the book uses El Paso, TX isanother example.
ASARCO had a huge smelter there too.
(07:14):
And Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, he grew up near that
smelter. And El Paso also saw a big spike
in violent crime in the 70s. So you see these patterns
repeating in places with simile industrial pollution.
Exactly. It suggests it wasn't just a
Pacific Northwest anomaly. They mentioned Rick Nevins work
too, the Lucifer curves. Yes, those graphs are really
(07:35):
striking. About 45 of them showing violent
crime, even things like teen pregnancies.
Mirroring lead exposure levels. Almost perfectly mirroring the
rise and then the fall of lead exposure over decades.
It's almost uncanny how neat thecorrelation looks.
But the data is the data. It's hard to argue with that
visual evidence. The book also touches on why
(07:57):
we're so fascinated by true crime, doesn't it?
Yeah, suggesting it might partlystem from, you know, women's
collective experiences with fearand male violence, which is a
whole other layer. Frazier herself had a personal
connection there, too, didn't she?
She did grew up just miles from where Bundy started his
abductions back when serial killer wasn't even really a
common term. And she points out something
(08:17):
chilling about Bundy. That he was a suspect in an
abduction of an 8 year old girl back in 1961 when he was only
14. Yeah, that adds another
disturbing dimension. It really does.
So backing up a bit, what exactly were these smelters
doing that caused so much pollution?
Well basically they were meltingrocks or from mines to get the
valuable metals out. Lead, copper, silver, gold.
(08:41):
OK, standard smelting, right? But the process releases huge
amounts of particulate pollution, dust, fumes, heavy
metals, all going up to smoke sacks and out into the air and
surrounding land. And the book is some specific
examples. Oh yeah, horrific ones like a
fire in 1973 at the Bunker Hill smelter in Kellogg, ID.
What happened? The fire destroyed its filters,
(09:03):
the things meant to capture the pollution.
So for 18 months, a year and a half, heavy metals just rained
down on the area, including ontoan elementary school right
across the street. Oh my God, the kids.
They tested the kids. Their blood lead levels average
50 micrograms per deciliter 50. 50 and the safe level now is
what like 3.5? Exactly.
(09:23):
The CDC recommends action at 3.5now it just shows how much our
understanding has changed and how high those exposures were.
That's horrifying. What did the company do?
We'll get this. The company Gulf and Western
owned it. Then they apparently calculated
the worth of those kids lives. They calculated, yeah.
At about $1,000,000 each and decided it was more profitable
(09:48):
to keep operating without the filters and just risk lawsuits
than to, you know, fix the problem immediately and protect
the children. I have no words for that, just
calculating human lives against profit.
It's really stark example of corporate disregard laid bare.
And the consequences for Ozarko eventually.
Huge. They eventually declared
bankruptcy largely because of these environmental liabilities,
(10:08):
and they face this massive, unprecedented EPA settlement.
How much $2 billion for cleaningup 20 Superfund sites.
These are the most contaminated places in the country.
And that Idaho site was one of them.
Yes, and Lake Kurda Lane nearby,which is so polluted at the
bottom they can barely touch it without making things worse by
stirring it all up again. Just impossible clean up jobs
(10:30):
almost. Pretty much.
And there's that interesting little tidbit about Frank
Herbert, the author of Dune. He was from Tacoma.
Yeah, and apparently his disgustwith that as Arco Smelter
directly inspired the themes of ecological destruction in Dune.
Wow, art imitating life, or rather, pollution.
Something like that. So how do you even clean up
(10:51):
something like Tacoma? It's a monumental task.
Yeah. They literally had to dig up and
replace tons and tons of contaminated soil in people's
yards. Just physically remove it, yeah.
But even then, some of the worststuff like this highly
contaminated material called theArsenic Kitchen from Everett.
What did they do with that They.Basically put it in a giant
super heavy duty plastic lined bag like a toxic waste garbage
(11:13):
bag, buried it and capped it with soil.
Seriously just buried it. Yep, and then condos were built
on top of the old smelter site condos.
On top of that. Condos with apparently just a
small historical display about the smelter near the public
bathroom. And they built a park called
Dune Park, funnily enough. On the slag land.
On the slag heap, yeah, lined with plastic to stop leakage.
(11:36):
It just shows the scale right? Billions spent, and often the
best you can do is contain it, not truly remove it.
It really drives home the long term legacy of this stuff.
OK. So we've looked at the past, the
smelters, the leaded gas. This devastating historical
pollution. But the deep dive makes it clear
this isn't just history. Frazier's work really pushes us
(11:57):
to ask, what are the modern unseen poisons?
Are we creating the next Murderland?
It's a crucial question. Frazier herself had a scare,
didn't she? Finding arsenic in her system?
Yeah, but. That was organic arsenic from
eating too many sardines, apparently, which is different.
Right, Organic arsenic occurs naturally in seafood.
It accumulates the smelters theywere pumping out in organic
(12:19):
arsenic. The really toxic kind used in
rat poison insecticides. Exactly.
And that stuff contaminated hugeareas of Washington way beyond
just the immediate smelter sites.
It persists in the environment. So what are the parallels today?
Plastics. Plastics are a huge one the book
touches on. Microplastics are literally
everywhere now. They found them in human brains.
(12:40):
In our brains. How much?
An amount equivalent to about a spoon is what the research
suggests, and they build up in the food chain, especially meat.
That's deeply concerning, and the solutions aren't always
better. Sometimes, not like paper straws
often have these forever chemical coatings that might be
worse than the plastic they replace.
(13:00):
Even glass bottom caps can leachmicro plastics.
So we try to fix one problem andaccidentally create another.
It's a recurring theme, unfortunately.
Good intentions, unforeseen consequences.
And it makes you question other things we take for granted, like
natural gas stoves. Is that safe?
What about clean coal? After reading about leaded gas,
(13:21):
those terms definitely sound more suspicious.
Don't they like potentially dangerous marketing speak?
Definitely. The book also goes into fluoride
and drinking water, which is always controversial.
Highly controversial, Fraser note studies correlating high
fluoride levels with lower Iqs, yet it's still widely added for
dental health. Even though we know there's no
safe level of lead and historically people had fewer
(13:42):
cavities before sugar was everywhere.
Exactly. It raises questions about the
priorities and the science used in public health policy.
And underlying all this is the worry about regulatory bodies
like the EPA right being defunded.
Yeah, that's a major concern raised.
If the agency is responsible foroversight and cleanup are
weakened, what happens to existing Superfund sites?
(14:03):
What new threats are emerging unchecked?
It reminds me of that zone Rougein France, the WWI battlefield.
Still too toxic for people. A chilling precedent for long
term man made contamination zones.
So wrapping this up, this deep dive into murder land, it really
exposes a, well, a dark side of industrial history, doesn't it?
(14:23):
It really does. These conscious corporate
choices prioritizing profit, leading to massive environmental
damage with these profound, often hidden impacts on human
health and behavior. But as you mentioned, with the
Lucifer curves, there is that glimmer of hope in the story
too. Absolutely.
Rick Nevins work showing that when lead was removed from
gasoline, there was a dramatic, undeniable fall in violent crime
(14:46):
rates and fewer active serial killers.
It shows collective action can work.
Addressing these environmental factors can make a real
difference. Undeniable progress was made.
It proves it's possible. So what's the main take away for
you listening to this? Maybe it's just that unsettling
idea that these invisible environmental factors might be
shaping us, shaping society way more than we realize.
(15:08):
Or maybe the bigger question is,what are we exposing ourselves
to now? What unforeseen consequences are
we creating? What murder land might we be
building for the future? It's definitely something to
think about. Thank you for joining us on this
deep dive.
Welcome to the Joe Rogan Re Tap.We're doing a special deep dive
today into some really compelling material and
sometimes honestly pretty unsettling stuff.
Definitely unsettling. Our mission here is to unpack a
really unconventional theory, and frankly, it's quite
disturbing. It's about these hidden links
between environmental pollution and violent crime.
(00:21):
Specifically serial killers, which is just wow.
Exactly. You shared excerpts with us from
JRE episode hashtag 2360 with Caroline Frazier.
She's the author of Murderland. And this deep dive, it's
probably going to challenge someof your assumptions about human
behavior, maybe even the forces shaping our world.
It certainly challenges conventional thinking.
(00:42):
OK, so let's dive right in Caroline Frazier's book
Murderland. It's not just theory, is it?
It tackles this question she's apparently been thinking about
since she was a kid. Right, growing up in the Pacific
Northwest in the 70s. And the question was why?
Why were there so many serial killers emerging from that
specific region back then? Her research LED her down this
(01:03):
well, this rabbit hole, to a premise that sounds wild at
first, a connection between leadpollution and heightened
aggression, violence. And she goes so far as to link
it to the rise of serial killersthemselves.
It's a really bold claim. It is, but her work lays out
some compelling evidence, doesn't it?
Absolutely. And what's really interesting is
(01:23):
how her own life story kind of intersected with this discovery.
Oh yeah, How so? Well, she talks about living in
Santa Fe, NM Apparently it had apretty high homicide rate
itself. And she was thinking about
moving back to the Pacific Northwest, looking at real
estate, you know, and she saw this listing on the Shawn Island
in Puget Sound, undeveloped property.
(01:44):
And the listing had this little note.
Arsenic remediation may be necessary.
Just like that, a small detail. Exactly.
But it sparked something her curiosity.
It LED her to start researching this notorious lead and copper
smelter in Tacoma. The Asarco smelter.
American Smelting and Refining Company.
That's the one. It had been operating since,
what, the late 1880s, 1890s, just pumping out pollution for
(02:09):
decades. And this is where it gets really
chilling, connecting back to theserial killer angle.
Yeah. Frazier realized that some
really notorious killers like Ted Bundy.
And Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer.
Both of them grew up right therein Tacoma during the smelter's
peak years of operation. Wow.
But she didn't just stop it likea geographical coincidence, she
(02:30):
actually found GIS maps. Geographic information systems,
right? Yeah.
These maps let her look up specific addresses, including
Ted Bundys actual childhood home.
No way. Yes, and she could see the
documented levels of lead and arsenic pollution right there in
their yards. So it wasn't just a theory, it
was measurable contamination where they grew up.
(02:51):
Literal, quantifiable contamination.
It really makes you think about how much our environment shapes
us, doesn't it? It absolutely does.
And connecting this to the bigger picture, I mean, serial
killers are the extreme, right, the most extreme, horrifying end
of the spectrum, Yeah. But most of the research on lead
exposure looks at broader societal impacts.
And these long term studies, they consistently show this
(03:14):
strong link even with really small amounts of lead exposure.
To things like learning problems.
Problems. ADHD.
Juvenile delinquency, adult crime rates too, and even
measurable drops in IQ across populations.
So it's not just about extreme violence, it's this general drag
on cognitive function and impulse control.
Exactly. It affects society much more
(03:36):
widely. That is staggering, especially
when you think how common lead exposure must have been.
So OK, smelters were one big source.
A major localized source, yes. But Frazier's work also looks at
something even more widespread, right Leaded gasoline.
Oh, absolutely. The book calls it a horrific
experiment conducted on, well, generations of people.
An experiment they knew the risks of.
Apparently so. Companies like Standard Oil,
(03:58):
DuPont, they knew the dangers back in the 1920s and 30s.
Really. That early.
Yeah, medical doctors actually warned them, said this would
expose people to unprecedented levels of lead, dangerous
levels. But they chose it anyway over
other options. Over alternatives like ethanol
and the reason ethanol couldn't be patented, it wouldn't be as
(04:20):
profitable. Wow, so the book frames this as
a a massive moral failure A. Profound moral failure, yeah,
even mortaring on evil is how it's described, considering they
knew the potential harm. That's quite an accusation, but
based on the evidence presented.It paints a pretty damning
picture of corporate decision making.
And it didn't stop there. The book talks about efforts to,
(04:43):
you know, whitewash their reputations afterwards.
Like cleaning up? Their image exactly.
A bit like Alfred Nobel and the Nobel Prize, right?
Inventor of dynamite trying to fix his Merchant of Death image.
Interesting parallel. And the book brings up Thomas
Midgley. He's almost this tragic figure
in it all. Who was he?
He invented both the leaded gas formula and CS ES, the
(05:03):
chlorofluorocarbons. The ones that blew a hole in the
ozone layer? Seriously.
The very same. And despite the, you know,
catastrophic consequences later on, he got the highest medal
from the American Chemistry Association.
Unbelievable. And get this, he died in this
bizarre accident involving A pulley system he invented for
himself because he had polio, and some people speculate the
(05:26):
polio itself might have been linked to lead exposure from his
own work. It's just layers of irony there.
That's incredible, a man celebrated for inventions that
ended up poisoning people and the planet.
It really shows how progress cango wrong when profits the main
driver. It's a chilling example for
sure. So, OK, we have this picture of
widespread lead exposure, but was the Pacific Northwest really
(05:50):
disproportionately affected in terms of serial killers?
The book argues yes, finding an extraordinary number
concentrated there. And beyond just the serial
killers, the overall violent crime rate.
In Tacoma specifically, it just skyrocketed in the mid 70s.
Which matched a national trend, right?
Crime was rising everywhere in the 70s and 80s.
It did align with the national trend, and of course there are
(06:11):
other theories for that nationalrise.
Like the baby boomers, coming ofage, economic uncertainty,
Vietnam. Exactly.
All those factors are discussed,but the science around
environmental toxins, especiallylead, offers this really
compelling additional layer and often overlooked factor.
Right, it doesn't have to be theonly cause, but a significant
(06:31):
contributing 1. Precisely.
And the research points not justto lead but also things like
cadmium, zinc, manganese, all part of this particular
pollution from industry. And these heavy metals, they can
get into the brain. Yeah, they can cross the blood
brain barrier relatively easily,and that's linked to all sorts
of neurological problems, healthissues, heart problems,
(06:53):
dementia, Alzheimer's, even ALS.Wow.
And crucially, the statistical analysis shows this really
strong correlation. You overlay the charts and the
rise in airborne LED in the mid 70s lines up incredibly closely
with the rise in violent crime. It's not just a coma, either.
No, the book uses El Paso, TX isanother example.
ASARCO had a huge smelter there too.
(07:14):
And Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, he grew up near that
smelter. And El Paso also saw a big spike
in violent crime in the 70s. So you see these patterns
repeating in places with simile industrial pollution.
Exactly. It suggests it wasn't just a
Pacific Northwest anomaly. They mentioned Rick Nevins work
too, the Lucifer curves. Yes, those graphs are really
(07:35):
striking. About 45 of them showing violent
crime, even things like teen pregnancies.
Mirroring lead exposure levels. Almost perfectly mirroring the
rise and then the fall of lead exposure over decades.
It's almost uncanny how neat thecorrelation looks.
But the data is the data. It's hard to argue with that
visual evidence. The book also touches on why
(07:57):
we're so fascinated by true crime, doesn't it?
Yeah, suggesting it might partlystem from, you know, women's
collective experiences with fearand male violence, which is a
whole other layer. Frazier herself had a personal
connection there, too, didn't she?
She did grew up just miles from where Bundy started his
abductions back when serial killer wasn't even really a
common term. And she points out something
(08:17):
chilling about Bundy. That he was a suspect in an
abduction of an 8 year old girl back in 1961 when he was only
14. Yeah, that adds another
disturbing dimension. It really does.
So backing up a bit, what exactly were these smelters
doing that caused so much pollution?
Well basically they were meltingrocks or from mines to get the
valuable metals out. Lead, copper, silver, gold.
(08:41):
OK, standard smelting, right? But the process releases huge
amounts of particulate pollution, dust, fumes, heavy
metals, all going up to smoke sacks and out into the air and
surrounding land. And the book is some specific
examples. Oh yeah, horrific ones like a
fire in 1973 at the Bunker Hill smelter in Kellogg, ID.
What happened? The fire destroyed its filters,
(09:03):
the things meant to capture the pollution.
So for 18 months, a year and a half, heavy metals just rained
down on the area, including ontoan elementary school right
across the street. Oh my God, the kids.
They tested the kids. Their blood lead levels average
50 micrograms per deciliter 50. 50 and the safe level now is
what like 3.5? Exactly.
(09:23):
The CDC recommends action at 3.5now it just shows how much our
understanding has changed and how high those exposures were.
That's horrifying. What did the company do?
We'll get this. The company Gulf and Western
owned it. Then they apparently calculated
the worth of those kids lives. They calculated, yeah.
At about $1,000,000 each and decided it was more profitable
(09:48):
to keep operating without the filters and just risk lawsuits
than to, you know, fix the problem immediately and protect
the children. I have no words for that, just
calculating human lives against profit.
It's really stark example of corporate disregard laid bare.
And the consequences for Ozarko eventually.
Huge. They eventually declared
bankruptcy largely because of these environmental liabilities,
(10:08):
and they face this massive, unprecedented EPA settlement.
How much $2 billion for cleaningup 20 Superfund sites.
These are the most contaminated places in the country.
And that Idaho site was one of them.
Yes, and Lake Kurda Lane nearby,which is so polluted at the
bottom they can barely touch it without making things worse by
stirring it all up again. Just impossible clean up jobs
(10:30):
almost. Pretty much.
And there's that interesting little tidbit about Frank
Herbert, the author of Dune. He was from Tacoma.
Yeah, and apparently his disgustwith that as Arco Smelter
directly inspired the themes of ecological destruction in Dune.
Wow, art imitating life, or rather, pollution.
Something like that. So how do you even clean up
(10:51):
something like Tacoma? It's a monumental task.
Yeah. They literally had to dig up and
replace tons and tons of contaminated soil in people's
yards. Just physically remove it, yeah.
But even then, some of the worststuff like this highly
contaminated material called theArsenic Kitchen from Everett.
What did they do with that They.Basically put it in a giant
super heavy duty plastic lined bag like a toxic waste garbage
(11:13):
bag, buried it and capped it with soil.
Seriously just buried it. Yep, and then condos were built
on top of the old smelter site condos.
On top of that. Condos with apparently just a
small historical display about the smelter near the public
bathroom. And they built a park called
Dune Park, funnily enough. On the slag land.
On the slag heap, yeah, lined with plastic to stop leakage.
(11:36):
It just shows the scale right? Billions spent, and often the
best you can do is contain it, not truly remove it.
It really drives home the long term legacy of this stuff.
OK. So we've looked at the past, the
smelters, the leaded gas. This devastating historical
pollution. But the deep dive makes it clear
this isn't just history. Frazier's work really pushes us
(11:57):
to ask, what are the modern unseen poisons?
Are we creating the next Murderland?
It's a crucial question. Frazier herself had a scare,
didn't she? Finding arsenic in her system?
Yeah, but. That was organic arsenic from
eating too many sardines, apparently, which is different.
Right, Organic arsenic occurs naturally in seafood.
It accumulates the smelters theywere pumping out in organic
(12:19):
arsenic. The really toxic kind used in
rat poison insecticides. Exactly.
And that stuff contaminated hugeareas of Washington way beyond
just the immediate smelter sites.
It persists in the environment. So what are the parallels today?
Plastics. Plastics are a huge one the book
touches on. Microplastics are literally
everywhere now. They found them in human brains.
(12:40):
In our brains. How much?
An amount equivalent to about a spoon is what the research
suggests, and they build up in the food chain, especially meat.
That's deeply concerning, and the solutions aren't always
better. Sometimes, not like paper straws
often have these forever chemical coatings that might be
worse than the plastic they replace.
(13:00):
Even glass bottom caps can leachmicro plastics.
So we try to fix one problem andaccidentally create another.
It's a recurring theme, unfortunately.
Good intentions, unforeseen consequences.
And it makes you question other things we take for granted, like
natural gas stoves. Is that safe?
What about clean coal? After reading about leaded gas,
(13:21):
those terms definitely sound more suspicious.
Don't they like potentially dangerous marketing speak?
Definitely. The book also goes into fluoride
and drinking water, which is always controversial.
Highly controversial, Fraser note studies correlating high
fluoride levels with lower Iqs, yet it's still widely added for
dental health. Even though we know there's no
safe level of lead and historically people had fewer
(13:42):
cavities before sugar was everywhere.
Exactly. It raises questions about the
priorities and the science used in public health policy.
And underlying all this is the worry about regulatory bodies
like the EPA right being defunded.
Yeah, that's a major concern raised.
If the agency is responsible foroversight and cleanup are
weakened, what happens to existing Superfund sites?
(14:03):
What new threats are emerging unchecked?
It reminds me of that zone Rougein France, the WWI battlefield.
Still too toxic for people. A chilling precedent for long
term man made contamination zones.
So wrapping this up, this deep dive into murder land, it really
exposes a, well, a dark side of industrial history, doesn't it?
(14:23):
It really does. These conscious corporate
choices prioritizing profit, leading to massive environmental
damage with these profound, often hidden impacts on human
health and behavior. But as you mentioned, with the
Lucifer curves, there is that glimmer of hope in the story
too. Absolutely.
Rick Nevins work showing that when lead was removed from
gasoline, there was a dramatic, undeniable fall in violent crime
(14:46):
rates and fewer active serial killers.
It shows collective action can work.
Addressing these environmental factors can make a real
difference. Undeniable progress was made.
It proves it's possible. So what's the main take away for
you listening to this? Maybe it's just that unsettling
idea that these invisible environmental factors might be
shaping us, shaping society way more than we realize.
(15:08):
Or maybe the bigger question is,what are we exposing ourselves
to now? What unforeseen consequences are
we creating? What murder land might we be
building for the future? It's definitely something to
think about. Thank you for joining us on this
deep dive.
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