May 19, 2025 • 19 mins
This recap episode features Ryan Holiday. The conversation covers a range of topics, including Holiday's early career experiences in Hollywood and his fascination with Stoicism. They discuss the timeless relevance of Stoic philosophy and its practical application in modern life, particularly in navigating difficult challenges and external pressures. The discussion also touches on social issues like poverty and inequality, the impact of technology and social media, and the nature of success and fulfillment, concluding with a personal exchange about recommended reading.
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're diving deep into a
recent conversation on The Joe Rogan Experience, specifically
episode Hashtag 1836 featuring Ryan Holiday.
Yes, Ryan Holiday. People probably know him best
for his work on stoicism, makingit really accessible and also
his stuff on like media manipulation.
Exactly. And our goal today really is to
(00:22):
unpack the key insights, the stories from this pretty
extensive conversation. Yeah, pull out the most valuable
Nuggets for you, whether you're looking for, you know, practical
wisdom, maybe a new perspective,or just some fascinating
anecdotes. Right.
Think of it as your shortcut to the core ideas they talked
about. We're extracting the takeaways,
the fresh angles and those moments that really make you
(00:43):
think. And there's a lot there.
We're going from holidays like early days in Hollywood, which
sounds pretty intense, all the way to deep dives on Stoic
philosophy, media's impact, evensocietal progress.
A real range. So where should we kick things
off? Well, how about his early
career? That Hollywood extreme seems
pretty formative. Yeah, he jumps right into it.
Talks about dropping out of college at 19, landing a job at
(01:07):
a talent agency in Hollywood. Pretty wild start.
And not just any job, right? He was also research assistant
for Robert Green, the author of The 48 Laws of Power.
Right, which leads to this story.
He mentions a partner at the agency seeing that book, The 48
Laws of Power, on his desk and immediately getting suspicious.
Like perceiving him as too ambitious, too calculating, just
(01:30):
for having the book. Exactly.
It really gives you a feel for that environment, you know, high
stakes, maybe a bit paranoid. It definitely highlights how
perceptions get formed, how evensmall things can be interpreted
in those kinds of competitive settings.
Yeah, makes you think about self-awareness, doesn't it?
Totally. And for Holiday, that whole
Hollywood vibe, it was kind of negative, actually made him
(01:50):
realize something important. What was that?
He figured out he don't want to just take a percentage of other
people's work. You know, he wanted to create
something himself. That desire for agency to be the
source, not just the facilitator, that's a powerful
drive for a lot of people. Yeah, and that pushed him
somewhere completely different. Next director of marketing at
American Apparel. Whoa, talk about a shift.
(02:13):
He described it as encountering some crazy, crazy people there,
but those experiences, however weird, they actually fed into
his writing later on. Which makes sense.
You need that raw material, right?
Those diverse, maybe even challenging experiences give you
something unique to say about, well, human behavior.
Absolutely, and he shared this piece of advice he got from a
(02:34):
writer back then. Writers live interesting lives.
That really hits home. It's not just about sitting down
to type. It's about engaging with the
world, gathering those experiences, developing your own
viewpoint. You can't really write about
life if you haven't, you know, lived it a bit.
Which kind of transitions nicelyinto the Stoicism part of the
conversation. He talks about discovering
(02:55):
Marcus Aurelius Meditations whenhe was, what, 19?
Yeah, and he describes it as totally transformative, like a
lightning bolt moment. And what really got him, he
said, was how personal it felt. Here's the most powerful guy in
the world, basically writing notes just for himself.
Not for us, not for publication.Just raw thoughts and the crazy
thing is how relevant it all still feels, right?
(03:17):
This Roman emperor, unimaginablepower and wealth.
But he's dealing with the same core human stuff, Anxiety,
frustration, trying to be good. It's incredibly granding.
That universality, that's a hugepart of Stoicism's appeal, isn't
it doesn't matter if you're an emperor or, you know, just
trying to get through Tuesday. The inner work is kind of the
(03:38):
same. Definitely, They also made a
point about translations, didn'tthey?
Finding the right one for meditations.
Yeah, they recommended the Gregory Hayes 1 specifically
said it was more lyrical, accessible anyway.
That's actually a really key point.
A good translation makes all thedifference in connecting with
these ancient texts. Hayes is known for feeling more
modern, more immediate. And wasn't the original language
(03:59):
Greek even though Aurelius was Roman?
It was, which is fascinating. Greek was sort of the language
of philosophy back then in the Roman Empire.
Shows how much influence Greek thought had.
Holiday even mentioned some of the more poetic bits in
Meditations, like imagery of nature, stock of grain and olive
falling, bread breaking. Those small observations, right?
(04:20):
They show this deep appreciationfor the present moment, for the
ordinary world that's very stoic, that mindfulness.
And then there was that concept not becoming caesarified or dyed
purple. Yeah, the purple dye for the
Emperor's cloak was super rare, super expensive, made from sea
snails, this whole complex process.
The phrase was like a warning. Don't let the power the status
(04:41):
corrupt. You don't get dyed purple.
A powerful metaphor. Stay grounded.
Focus on your inner character, your virtue, not the external
trappings. Classic Stoic Caution against
letting power change who you are.
Which flows right into how Stoicism helps you deal with
life's, well, obstacle. They mentioned Holiday's book
The Obstacle is the Way. The core idea there is just
(05:03):
reframing, seeing challenges notas roadblocks but as
opportunities, opportunities forgrowth, for building resilience.
Even his kind of rough Hollywoodstart looking back, he sees how
it totally changed his path for the better.
Exactly. And the real strength of
Stoicism, they both seem to agree, is that focus on what you
(05:24):
can control your thoughts, your reactions, your judgments.
Everything else, it's outside your control, so you learn to
accept it. That's the bedrock, right?
Direct your energy inward. Which brings us to this really
interesting bit about physical discipline and mental strength.
They're deeply connected in Stoicism.
Right. Holiday pointed out that a lot
of ancient stoics weren't just thinkers.
They were like warriors, runners, boxers.
(05:46):
Yeah, their philosophy wasn't just abstract thought, it was
lived physically. Their metaphors often came from
that physical experience. That Seneca quote really stood
out. We treat the body rigorously so
that it will not be disobedient to the mind.
It's not about punishing yourself, it's about asserting
control. Things like cold showers or
tough workouts. They're training the mind to be
(06:08):
in charge of the body's urges, its desire for comfort.
Cultivating self mastery. They even brought up that quote
from John Joseph, the CRO Mags guy, about doing an Iron Man.
Oh yeah, that's when your mind has to tell your body who the FS
in charge. Yeah, that pretty much sums it
up, that mental toughness you build.
And that toughness, that resilience you build overcoming
physical struggle, it absolutelytranslates.
(06:29):
It helps you face any kind of difficulty.
Like writing a tough book or dealing with personal stuff,
that foundation is there. It builds this kind of
confidence. Reservoir.
Yeah. You know, you can get through
hard things because you've done it before.
Discomfort becomes less intimidating.
They use Cameron Haynes as an example to the ultra marathon
bowhunter. His insane physical training
(06:50):
helps him stay calm under pressure.
That's that stoic stillness, anorexia.
They mentioned his training isn't just physical, it's mental
conditioning, managing discomfort, staying clear
headed. That inner calm is a huge goal
in Stoicism. And it's cumulative, right?
The more you face hard stuff, the easier it gets to handle the
next thing, like fighters getting used to being in the
(07:11):
ring. Exactly.
Repeated exposure builds that psychological armor.
Your mind just gets better at navigating stress.
So then the conversation shifts gears a bit, moving towards
media and the feeling of just being overloaded with
information all the time. Yeah, that hits close to home
for a lot of us. I think they talk about the
danger of grabbing your phone first thing in the morning,
(07:33):
checking social media. And immediately getting like
riled up or anxious before you've even had coffee.
Right. They contrasted it with Peter
Adia's approach, scanning e-mailfor actual fires that need
putting out versus just getting sucked into the emotional churn
of the feed. That phrase, the constant buzz
of subtle anxiety, Yeah, it feels very real.
(07:54):
This nonstop flow of informationjust creates this background hum
of unease. The key take away seems to be
about being deliberate. Limiting that input, especially
early in the day, is crucial for, you know, mental clarity
and focus. They also touched on dealing
with online criticism. Rogan's obviously dealt with a
ton of it. Can you build resilience to
that? It seems you can build a degree
(08:16):
of maybe thicker skin, but they also acknowledge that
negativity, especially anonymousstuff, can still pile up and
have an effect. Learning to filter the noise
from actual feedback is key. Yeah, that feeling of
helplessness when it's just anonymous attacks.
Yeah. What do you even do with that?
It's tough. The anonymity definitely
changes. The dynamic allows for stuff
(08:38):
people wouldn't say face to face.
Makes real engagement hard. And there's the point about how
social media can warp your view of the world, right?
You're constantly seeing all theproblems everywhere all at once.
Which isn't really your reality.day-to-day creates this sense of
overwhelm. Like the world is constantly on
fire and you feel powerless. It's important to keep
perspective. The comparison they made was
(08:59):
stark. The amount of info an average
person sees today versus like a president or even Marcus
Aurelius centuries ago, it's mind boggling.
Our brains just aren't wired forthis volume information fatigue.
Difficulty telling what actuallymatters.
It's a real challenge. Which led to a quick mention of
future tech like Neuralink. Could something like that help
manage the flood? Maybe it's still very early
(09:22):
days, obviously lots of ethical questions there too, but it
points towards potential future ways of interacting with
information. Then they moved on to
comparison. That old saying comparison is
the thief of joy. So true, and they had that
anecdote about actors on a sitcom.
Oh yeah, they were successful, had a good gig, but they were
totally fixated on why other people on the show seem to be
(09:44):
doing even better. Instead of just appreciating
what they had. It's such an easy trap to fall
into, especially in competitive fields.
Completely undermines your own satisfaction.
Stoic angle, of course, is gratitude.
Focus on what you have, on your own path, your own work.
Trying to be the best you can bein your situation, not
constantly looking sideways because where does that energy
go? Right.
(10:05):
Your mental bandwidth is limited.
If you're spending it dwelling on comparisons or negativity,
you have less focus for your ownstuff.
Which loops back perfectly to that core Stoic idea, control
versus no control. Putting energy into external
stuff, what other people think, what they have, things you can't
influence, it just counterproductive.
(10:26):
Yeah, it actively takes away from what you can influence your
own choices, your own effort, your attitude.
And they noted this is an alwayswhat modern societies is it?
There's so much focus on external validation.
Absolutely. Status, likes, followers,
promotions. The focus is often outward,
which can disconnect us from ourown internal values and what
(10:47):
actually brings fulfillment. There is also that interesting
idea. Sometimes we get really caught
up in external problems and maybe big societal issues.
As a way to avoid looking inward.
Yeah, possibly. Like it's easier to get angry
about something out there than to deal with your own anxieties
or shortcomings. That resonates.
It can be a distraction from theharder personal work.
They even drew a parallel to 12 step programs, the idea of
(11:08):
accepting a higher power. Recognizing you're not the
center of the universe, surrendering what you can't
control. It's similar to the Stoic
acceptance. It frees you up to focus on what
you can do your own actions. Master what's in your control
first. That seems to be the message.
Then the conversation broadened out again.
Looking at how media itself evolves and shapes us, Neil
(11:29):
Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death came up.
Such a relevant book. Still, the parallels between TV
back then and social media now prioritizing entertainment may
be shaping how we think. It's interesting how every new
media seems to get that reactioninitially right.
Concerns about the printing press making people dumb, then
(11:50):
TV, now the Internet. Yeah, this fear that the new
thing will ruin us somehow. They also mentioned Daniel
Boorstin and pseudo events. Events basically created for
media coverage, blurring the line between what's real and
what's just manufactured for attention.
And Upton Sinclair's The Brass Check, showing that worries
about media bias and sensationalism are like over a
(12:10):
century old. These aren't new problems, they
just take different forms depending on the technology of
the medium. So the question becomes, how did
different media shape us? What do they incentivize?
They compared modern short attention spans to, say, the
Lincoln Douglas debates, which required hours of focus.
Big difference. And they looked at books versus,
say, blog posts. Books take time.
(12:33):
Editing. Reader investment.
Well, some online stuff is designed for that quick hit,
that immediate emotional reaction.
Which led them to suggest podcasting might be potentially
a more positive modern medium. Because of the long format,
right allows for nuance, deeper conversation, less reliant on
sound bites. Yeah, the incentives are
different. Does the medium encourage
(12:54):
thoughtful engagement or just quick reactions?
Does it make us smarter or Dumber?
We need to be critical consumers.
Which ties into how Rogan approaches his own podcast.
He basically just talks to people he finds interesting.
No grand strategy for growth, Not chasing guests just for
clicks. It's driven by genuine
curiosity. And the show grew organically,
mostly word of mouth, because people responded to that
(13:15):
authenticity. It's a different model.
They compared it a bit to Substack, where creators have
that direct, often paid relationship with their
audience. Which has upsides but also
potential downsides like audience capture.
Yeah, the risk that you start maybe unconsciously tailoring
what you say to keep that payingaudience happy rather than just
(13:36):
pursuing what you think is true or interesting.
You see it sometimes, right? Comedians, Political
commentators, they find a groovethat resonates with their base
and they stick to it, maybe evenamplify it.
It can lead to reinforcing biases, creating echo chambers.
That's why having opinions that don't neatly fit one side or the
other is probably healthy. Being willing to challenge your
(13:57):
own side even and considering the practical side of big ideas
like Ubi, Universal basic income.
Right, moving beyond the ideal to think about the real world
complexities and consequences, which opened up that whole
discussion about poverty and motivation.
Yeah, that was complex poverty as this double edged thing,
sometimes a motivator out of sheer necessity, but also
(14:18):
incredibly destructive. It's not simple.
And they critique that old saying, if you're not liberal
when you're young, you have no heart.
If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain.
Because it's just too simplistic, right?
It dismisses genuine shifts in perspective or the complexities
of belief. Totally.
And then that really grim anecdote about the robbery, the
(14:39):
death over just $20. Just highlights the desperation
poverty can create and frankly the failures in society when
people are in that position. And underscores that key point.
People don't start from the sameplace.
Life circumstances vary wildly. Recognizing those vastly
different starting points is crucial, which led them to talk
about the student loan system. Calling it potentially
(15:01):
exploitative. Creating this crushing, often
unforgivable debt right at the start of adult life.
Yeah, questioning the value proposition of college now, with
the cost soaring and so much information available elsewhere.
Is the debt always worth it? It's a valid question.
And then the slightly counterintuitive idea If
education was totally free, would people value it as much?
(15:22):
That paradox again, like poverty, sometimes having to
strive for something makes you appreciate it more.
It's complicated. And they noted how many people
from tough backgrounds end up inreally dangerous, physically
demanding jobs like boxing. Because other doors just aren't
open, It's seen as one of the few ways out.
Which then brought them to the dangers of those sports, Yeah,
(15:44):
specifically CTE and football. Yeah, referencing that JAMA
study showing high rates of CTE even in amateur players.
It's really concerning stuff. Rogan talked openly about his
own conflict there, loving MMA, commentating on it, but being
acutely aware of the risks. He even mentioned stopping his
own martial arts competition young because he was worried
about the long term cognitive effects.
(16:06):
And he urged athletes to think about their long term health,
their brain function over pushing through in dangerous
sports. It's irreversible damage.
It's a tough balance, isn't it, enjoying the spectacle but
knowing the human cost involved.Definitely raises questions
about our enjoyment of violent entertainment and the choices
athletes make, especially if their options feel limited.
(16:27):
This broader question of choice versus circumstance.
Which loops back to the final part of the conversation,
looking at human cruelty historically but also
acknowledging progress. Yeah, despite the terrible
things that still happen, comparing now to the past, it's
stark, that anecdote about the corrupt judge.
Being skinned alive and his skinused for his son's chair.
(16:49):
Yeah, horrific. A reminder at how brutal things
once were. So while you can point to
hypocrisy like the founding fathers owning slaves while
talking freedom. You also have to acknowledge we
have moved away from that kind of overt, state sanctioned
cruelty. Progress isn't always linear or
perfect, but it's there. They talked about the lingering
effects though Confederate monuments, still feeling the
(17:11):
divisions from the Civil War. These things have long shadows.
Absolutely. Addressing those historical
injustices and the disadvantagespeople still face because of
them, that's crucial for making things better.
Progress takes constant effort, right?
Bending that arc of history towards justice, as they say.
And maybe modern communication, despite all its issues with
misinformation, can help by shining a light on inequality,
(17:35):
by connecting people. There's also a quick mention of
self help, how it's evolved, andthe need to balance positive
thinking with actual work. Right.
The law of attraction is enough.You got to put in the effort
too. Which brings us back to stoicism
and ambition, the idea that tying your happiness to external
results is risky. Because those results aren't
(17:55):
fully in your control, the focusshould be internal pride in your
effort doing your best. Finding satisfaction in the work
itself, regardless of the awardsor the recognition, that's the
real measure. Did you give it your all?
Did you act with integrity? That's what matters, Not leaving
anything on the table, as they put it, seizing the time you
have. So quite a journey through that
(18:16):
conversation. This deep dive into the Rogan
episode with Ryan Holiday reallycovered a lot of ground.
It really did. From personal ambition and
stoicoping mechanisms to media'sinfluence societal progress.
Lots to chew on. We've hit on physical
discipline, managing informationoverload, the complexities of
poverty and motivation, the ethics of sport, The Longview of
(18:36):
history. Hopefully pulling out these
threads has given you some memorable points, maybe a few
aha moments, and just a clearer picture of the key ideas they
discussed. Yeah, maybe some things to think
about in your own life. Like, are you focusing your
energy on what you can actually control?
How are you navigating this nonstop flood of information?
What does progress even look like to you in today's world?
(18:58):
Lots of questions, and really this deep dive is just
scratching the surface. If any of this resonated,
definitely check out Ryan Holiday's work.
Maybe dig more into Stoicism itself.
Keep questioning. Keep exploring those forces that
shape our lives. Thanks for joining us for this
recap.
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're diving deep into a
recent conversation on The Joe Rogan Experience, specifically
episode Hashtag 1836 featuring Ryan Holiday.
Yes, Ryan Holiday. People probably know him best
for his work on stoicism, makingit really accessible and also
his stuff on like media manipulation.
Exactly. And our goal today really is to
(00:22):
unpack the key insights, the stories from this pretty
extensive conversation. Yeah, pull out the most valuable
Nuggets for you, whether you're looking for, you know, practical
wisdom, maybe a new perspective,or just some fascinating
anecdotes. Right.
Think of it as your shortcut to the core ideas they talked
about. We're extracting the takeaways,
the fresh angles and those moments that really make you
(00:43):
think. And there's a lot there.
We're going from holidays like early days in Hollywood, which
sounds pretty intense, all the way to deep dives on Stoic
philosophy, media's impact, evensocietal progress.
A real range. So where should we kick things
off? Well, how about his early
career? That Hollywood extreme seems
pretty formative. Yeah, he jumps right into it.
Talks about dropping out of college at 19, landing a job at
(01:07):
a talent agency in Hollywood. Pretty wild start.
And not just any job, right? He was also research assistant
for Robert Green, the author of The 48 Laws of Power.
Right, which leads to this story.
He mentions a partner at the agency seeing that book, The 48
Laws of Power, on his desk and immediately getting suspicious.
Like perceiving him as too ambitious, too calculating, just
(01:30):
for having the book. Exactly.
It really gives you a feel for that environment, you know, high
stakes, maybe a bit paranoid. It definitely highlights how
perceptions get formed, how evensmall things can be interpreted
in those kinds of competitive settings.
Yeah, makes you think about self-awareness, doesn't it?
Totally. And for Holiday, that whole
Hollywood vibe, it was kind of negative, actually made him
(01:50):
realize something important. What was that?
He figured out he don't want to just take a percentage of other
people's work. You know, he wanted to create
something himself. That desire for agency to be the
source, not just the facilitator, that's a powerful
drive for a lot of people. Yeah, and that pushed him
somewhere completely different. Next director of marketing at
American Apparel. Whoa, talk about a shift.
(02:13):
He described it as encountering some crazy, crazy people there,
but those experiences, however weird, they actually fed into
his writing later on. Which makes sense.
You need that raw material, right?
Those diverse, maybe even challenging experiences give you
something unique to say about, well, human behavior.
Absolutely, and he shared this piece of advice he got from a
(02:34):
writer back then. Writers live interesting lives.
That really hits home. It's not just about sitting down
to type. It's about engaging with the
world, gathering those experiences, developing your own
viewpoint. You can't really write about
life if you haven't, you know, lived it a bit.
Which kind of transitions nicelyinto the Stoicism part of the
conversation. He talks about discovering
(02:55):
Marcus Aurelius Meditations whenhe was, what, 19?
Yeah, and he describes it as totally transformative, like a
lightning bolt moment. And what really got him, he
said, was how personal it felt. Here's the most powerful guy in
the world, basically writing notes just for himself.
Not for us, not for publication.Just raw thoughts and the crazy
thing is how relevant it all still feels, right?
(03:17):
This Roman emperor, unimaginablepower and wealth.
But he's dealing with the same core human stuff, Anxiety,
frustration, trying to be good. It's incredibly granding.
That universality, that's a hugepart of Stoicism's appeal, isn't
it doesn't matter if you're an emperor or, you know, just
trying to get through Tuesday. The inner work is kind of the
(03:38):
same. Definitely, They also made a
point about translations, didn'tthey?
Finding the right one for meditations.
Yeah, they recommended the Gregory Hayes 1 specifically
said it was more lyrical, accessible anyway.
That's actually a really key point.
A good translation makes all thedifference in connecting with
these ancient texts. Hayes is known for feeling more
modern, more immediate. And wasn't the original language
(03:59):
Greek even though Aurelius was Roman?
It was, which is fascinating. Greek was sort of the language
of philosophy back then in the Roman Empire.
Shows how much influence Greek thought had.
Holiday even mentioned some of the more poetic bits in
Meditations, like imagery of nature, stock of grain and olive
falling, bread breaking. Those small observations, right?
(04:20):
They show this deep appreciationfor the present moment, for the
ordinary world that's very stoic, that mindfulness.
And then there was that concept not becoming caesarified or dyed
purple. Yeah, the purple dye for the
Emperor's cloak was super rare, super expensive, made from sea
snails, this whole complex process.
The phrase was like a warning. Don't let the power the status
(04:41):
corrupt. You don't get dyed purple.
A powerful metaphor. Stay grounded.
Focus on your inner character, your virtue, not the external
trappings. Classic Stoic Caution against
letting power change who you are.
Which flows right into how Stoicism helps you deal with
life's, well, obstacle. They mentioned Holiday's book
The Obstacle is the Way. The core idea there is just
(05:03):
reframing, seeing challenges notas roadblocks but as
opportunities, opportunities forgrowth, for building resilience.
Even his kind of rough Hollywoodstart looking back, he sees how
it totally changed his path for the better.
Exactly. And the real strength of
Stoicism, they both seem to agree, is that focus on what you
(05:24):
can control your thoughts, your reactions, your judgments.
Everything else, it's outside your control, so you learn to
accept it. That's the bedrock, right?
Direct your energy inward. Which brings us to this really
interesting bit about physical discipline and mental strength.
They're deeply connected in Stoicism.
Right. Holiday pointed out that a lot
of ancient stoics weren't just thinkers.
They were like warriors, runners, boxers.
(05:46):
Yeah, their philosophy wasn't just abstract thought, it was
lived physically. Their metaphors often came from
that physical experience. That Seneca quote really stood
out. We treat the body rigorously so
that it will not be disobedient to the mind.
It's not about punishing yourself, it's about asserting
control. Things like cold showers or
tough workouts. They're training the mind to be
(06:08):
in charge of the body's urges, its desire for comfort.
Cultivating self mastery. They even brought up that quote
from John Joseph, the CRO Mags guy, about doing an Iron Man.
Oh yeah, that's when your mind has to tell your body who the FS
in charge. Yeah, that pretty much sums it
up, that mental toughness you build.
And that toughness, that resilience you build overcoming
physical struggle, it absolutelytranslates.
(06:29):
It helps you face any kind of difficulty.
Like writing a tough book or dealing with personal stuff,
that foundation is there. It builds this kind of
confidence. Reservoir.
Yeah. You know, you can get through
hard things because you've done it before.
Discomfort becomes less intimidating.
They use Cameron Haynes as an example to the ultra marathon
bowhunter. His insane physical training
(06:50):
helps him stay calm under pressure.
That's that stoic stillness, anorexia.
They mentioned his training isn't just physical, it's mental
conditioning, managing discomfort, staying clear
headed. That inner calm is a huge goal
in Stoicism. And it's cumulative, right?
The more you face hard stuff, the easier it gets to handle the
next thing, like fighters getting used to being in the
(07:11):
ring. Exactly.
Repeated exposure builds that psychological armor.
Your mind just gets better at navigating stress.
So then the conversation shifts gears a bit, moving towards
media and the feeling of just being overloaded with
information all the time. Yeah, that hits close to home
for a lot of us. I think they talk about the
danger of grabbing your phone first thing in the morning,
(07:33):
checking social media. And immediately getting like
riled up or anxious before you've even had coffee.
Right. They contrasted it with Peter
Adia's approach, scanning e-mailfor actual fires that need
putting out versus just getting sucked into the emotional churn
of the feed. That phrase, the constant buzz
of subtle anxiety, Yeah, it feels very real.
(07:54):
This nonstop flow of informationjust creates this background hum
of unease. The key take away seems to be
about being deliberate. Limiting that input, especially
early in the day, is crucial for, you know, mental clarity
and focus. They also touched on dealing
with online criticism. Rogan's obviously dealt with a
ton of it. Can you build resilience to
that? It seems you can build a degree
(08:16):
of maybe thicker skin, but they also acknowledge that
negativity, especially anonymousstuff, can still pile up and
have an effect. Learning to filter the noise
from actual feedback is key. Yeah, that feeling of
helplessness when it's just anonymous attacks.
Yeah. What do you even do with that?
It's tough. The anonymity definitely
changes. The dynamic allows for stuff
(08:38):
people wouldn't say face to face.
Makes real engagement hard. And there's the point about how
social media can warp your view of the world, right?
You're constantly seeing all theproblems everywhere all at once.
Which isn't really your reality.day-to-day creates this sense of
overwhelm. Like the world is constantly on
fire and you feel powerless. It's important to keep
perspective. The comparison they made was
(08:59):
stark. The amount of info an average
person sees today versus like a president or even Marcus
Aurelius centuries ago, it's mind boggling.
Our brains just aren't wired forthis volume information fatigue.
Difficulty telling what actuallymatters.
It's a real challenge. Which led to a quick mention of
future tech like Neuralink. Could something like that help
manage the flood? Maybe it's still very early
(09:22):
days, obviously lots of ethical questions there too, but it
points towards potential future ways of interacting with
information. Then they moved on to
comparison. That old saying comparison is
the thief of joy. So true, and they had that
anecdote about actors on a sitcom.
Oh yeah, they were successful, had a good gig, but they were
totally fixated on why other people on the show seem to be
(09:44):
doing even better. Instead of just appreciating
what they had. It's such an easy trap to fall
into, especially in competitive fields.
Completely undermines your own satisfaction.
Stoic angle, of course, is gratitude.
Focus on what you have, on your own path, your own work.
Trying to be the best you can bein your situation, not
constantly looking sideways because where does that energy
go? Right.
(10:05):
Your mental bandwidth is limited.
If you're spending it dwelling on comparisons or negativity,
you have less focus for your ownstuff.
Which loops back perfectly to that core Stoic idea, control
versus no control. Putting energy into external
stuff, what other people think, what they have, things you can't
influence, it just counterproductive.
(10:26):
Yeah, it actively takes away from what you can influence your
own choices, your own effort, your attitude.
And they noted this is an alwayswhat modern societies is it?
There's so much focus on external validation.
Absolutely. Status, likes, followers,
promotions. The focus is often outward,
which can disconnect us from ourown internal values and what
(10:47):
actually brings fulfillment. There is also that interesting
idea. Sometimes we get really caught
up in external problems and maybe big societal issues.
As a way to avoid looking inward.
Yeah, possibly. Like it's easier to get angry
about something out there than to deal with your own anxieties
or shortcomings. That resonates.
It can be a distraction from theharder personal work.
They even drew a parallel to 12 step programs, the idea of
(11:08):
accepting a higher power. Recognizing you're not the
center of the universe, surrendering what you can't
control. It's similar to the Stoic
acceptance. It frees you up to focus on what
you can do your own actions. Master what's in your control
first. That seems to be the message.
Then the conversation broadened out again.
Looking at how media itself evolves and shapes us, Neil
(11:29):
Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death came up.
Such a relevant book. Still, the parallels between TV
back then and social media now prioritizing entertainment may
be shaping how we think. It's interesting how every new
media seems to get that reactioninitially right.
Concerns about the printing press making people dumb, then
(11:50):
TV, now the Internet. Yeah, this fear that the new
thing will ruin us somehow. They also mentioned Daniel
Boorstin and pseudo events. Events basically created for
media coverage, blurring the line between what's real and
what's just manufactured for attention.
And Upton Sinclair's The Brass Check, showing that worries
about media bias and sensationalism are like over a
(12:10):
century old. These aren't new problems, they
just take different forms depending on the technology of
the medium. So the question becomes, how did
different media shape us? What do they incentivize?
They compared modern short attention spans to, say, the
Lincoln Douglas debates, which required hours of focus.
Big difference. And they looked at books versus,
say, blog posts. Books take time.
(12:33):
Editing. Reader investment.
Well, some online stuff is designed for that quick hit,
that immediate emotional reaction.
Which led them to suggest podcasting might be potentially
a more positive modern medium. Because of the long format,
right allows for nuance, deeper conversation, less reliant on
sound bites. Yeah, the incentives are
different. Does the medium encourage
(12:54):
thoughtful engagement or just quick reactions?
Does it make us smarter or Dumber?
We need to be critical consumers.
Which ties into how Rogan approaches his own podcast.
He basically just talks to people he finds interesting.
No grand strategy for growth, Not chasing guests just for
clicks. It's driven by genuine
curiosity. And the show grew organically,
mostly word of mouth, because people responded to that
(13:15):
authenticity. It's a different model.
They compared it a bit to Substack, where creators have
that direct, often paid relationship with their
audience. Which has upsides but also
potential downsides like audience capture.
Yeah, the risk that you start maybe unconsciously tailoring
what you say to keep that payingaudience happy rather than just
(13:36):
pursuing what you think is true or interesting.
You see it sometimes, right? Comedians, Political
commentators, they find a groovethat resonates with their base
and they stick to it, maybe evenamplify it.
It can lead to reinforcing biases, creating echo chambers.
That's why having opinions that don't neatly fit one side or the
other is probably healthy. Being willing to challenge your
(13:57):
own side even and considering the practical side of big ideas
like Ubi, Universal basic income.
Right, moving beyond the ideal to think about the real world
complexities and consequences, which opened up that whole
discussion about poverty and motivation.
Yeah, that was complex poverty as this double edged thing,
sometimes a motivator out of sheer necessity, but also
(14:18):
incredibly destructive. It's not simple.
And they critique that old saying, if you're not liberal
when you're young, you have no heart.
If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain.
Because it's just too simplistic, right?
It dismisses genuine shifts in perspective or the complexities
of belief. Totally.
And then that really grim anecdote about the robbery, the
(14:39):
death over just $20. Just highlights the desperation
poverty can create and frankly the failures in society when
people are in that position. And underscores that key point.
People don't start from the sameplace.
Life circumstances vary wildly. Recognizing those vastly
different starting points is crucial, which led them to talk
about the student loan system. Calling it potentially
(15:01):
exploitative. Creating this crushing, often
unforgivable debt right at the start of adult life.
Yeah, questioning the value proposition of college now, with
the cost soaring and so much information available elsewhere.
Is the debt always worth it? It's a valid question.
And then the slightly counterintuitive idea If
education was totally free, would people value it as much?
(15:22):
That paradox again, like poverty, sometimes having to
strive for something makes you appreciate it more.
It's complicated. And they noted how many people
from tough backgrounds end up inreally dangerous, physically
demanding jobs like boxing. Because other doors just aren't
open, It's seen as one of the few ways out.
Which then brought them to the dangers of those sports, Yeah,
(15:44):
specifically CTE and football. Yeah, referencing that JAMA
study showing high rates of CTE even in amateur players.
It's really concerning stuff. Rogan talked openly about his
own conflict there, loving MMA, commentating on it, but being
acutely aware of the risks. He even mentioned stopping his
own martial arts competition young because he was worried
about the long term cognitive effects.
(16:06):
And he urged athletes to think about their long term health,
their brain function over pushing through in dangerous
sports. It's irreversible damage.
It's a tough balance, isn't it, enjoying the spectacle but
knowing the human cost involved.Definitely raises questions
about our enjoyment of violent entertainment and the choices
athletes make, especially if their options feel limited.
(16:27):
This broader question of choice versus circumstance.
Which loops back to the final part of the conversation,
looking at human cruelty historically but also
acknowledging progress. Yeah, despite the terrible
things that still happen, comparing now to the past, it's
stark, that anecdote about the corrupt judge.
Being skinned alive and his skinused for his son's chair.
(16:49):
Yeah, horrific. A reminder at how brutal things
once were. So while you can point to
hypocrisy like the founding fathers owning slaves while
talking freedom. You also have to acknowledge we
have moved away from that kind of overt, state sanctioned
cruelty. Progress isn't always linear or
perfect, but it's there. They talked about the lingering
effects though Confederate monuments, still feeling the
(17:11):
divisions from the Civil War. These things have long shadows.
Absolutely. Addressing those historical
injustices and the disadvantagespeople still face because of
them, that's crucial for making things better.
Progress takes constant effort, right?
Bending that arc of history towards justice, as they say.
And maybe modern communication, despite all its issues with
misinformation, can help by shining a light on inequality,
(17:35):
by connecting people. There's also a quick mention of
self help, how it's evolved, andthe need to balance positive
thinking with actual work. Right.
The law of attraction is enough.You got to put in the effort
too. Which brings us back to stoicism
and ambition, the idea that tying your happiness to external
results is risky. Because those results aren't
(17:55):
fully in your control, the focusshould be internal pride in your
effort doing your best. Finding satisfaction in the work
itself, regardless of the awardsor the recognition, that's the
real measure. Did you give it your all?
Did you act with integrity? That's what matters, Not leaving
anything on the table, as they put it, seizing the time you
have. So quite a journey through that
(18:16):
conversation. This deep dive into the Rogan
episode with Ryan Holiday reallycovered a lot of ground.
It really did. From personal ambition and
stoicoping mechanisms to media'sinfluence societal progress.
Lots to chew on. We've hit on physical
discipline, managing informationoverload, the complexities of
poverty and motivation, the ethics of sport, The Longview of
(18:36):
history. Hopefully pulling out these
threads has given you some memorable points, maybe a few
aha moments, and just a clearer picture of the key ideas they
discussed. Yeah, maybe some things to think
about in your own life. Like, are you focusing your
energy on what you can actually control?
How are you navigating this nonstop flood of information?
What does progress even look like to you in today's world?
(18:58):
Lots of questions, and really this deep dive is just
scratching the surface. If any of this resonated,
definitely check out Ryan Holiday's work.
Maybe dig more into Stoicism itself.
Keep questioning. Keep exploring those forces that
shape our lives. Thanks for joining us for this
recap.
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