August 1, 2025 • 14 mins
This recap episode features Sarko Gergerian, a lieutenant in law enforcement and trained psychedelic-assisted therapist. The discussion centres on the potential benefits of psychedelics for mental health, particularly for first responders and those suffering from PTSD, alongside a critique of the historical and ongoing prohibition of these substances. Gergerian shares his personal journey and experiences with psychedelics, highlighting the disconnect between scientific evidence and restrictive drug laws, arguing that these laws have been detrimental to society and even contribute to moral injury within law enforcement. The conversation also touches on the origins of drug prohibition, linking it to economic interests and social control, and advocates for a shift towards decriminalisation, regulation, and a public health approach to drug use.
---
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today on The Deep Dive, we're
plunging into an absolutely fascinating conversation that
really challenges everything youthought you knew about law
enforcement, healing, and, well,the whole nature of what we call
drugs. Yeah, we've pulled out the most
compelling bits from a recent Joe Rogan Experience episode.
It featured Sarco Jarjarian. He's a pretty unique individual,
(00:22):
kind of sitting at this intersection of policing and
psychedelic therapy. Exactly.
And our mission today really is to unpack how these rigid
definitions, you know, the historical stories we tell about
certain substances, how they're being seriously challenged both
by, like, hard science and theseincredible personal stories.
And we'll dig into what this could mean healing individuals,
(00:43):
especially, you know, our first responders, and also for just
the bigger picture, pursuit of truth, maybe even freedom in
society. OK, so let's get into it.
Our deep dive starts with Sarco Giugiri and himself.
He's a Massachusetts law enforcement professional
Lieutenant for, what, 15 years? Yeah, something like that.
And he's also a trained psychedelic assisted therapist.
(01:03):
And get this, he's believed to be the first police officer to
actually get a religious exemption at work to use in
theogens. Which are, you know, substances
used in a spiritual context basically to connect.
That's huge. It really is.
And his path into this whole field is, it's really telling.
He studied psychology 1st but apparently found it to
(01:26):
observable. Observable like not deep enough.
Yeah, sort of like rats pressinglaborers was his take.
I think he was searching for something more drawn to
philosophy, religion, and then this is crucial.
He was a security guard back in the 90s, Boston nightclubs,
right? And he saw first hand that
social shift when MDMA, you know, XT, first hit the scene
(01:47):
big time. He literally watched people
change from being closed off. Like, who are you?
What do you want? He's set in connecting.
Yeah, genuinely connecting, highfiving, hugging.
That image, that feeling, it just stuck with him.
Wow. OK, so Fast forward, he's in his
30s, he's a cop now. He goes to his International
Association of Chiefs of Police conference, the IECP down in
Orlando. And this is where it gets almost
(02:07):
like surreal Rick Doblin from MAP.
PS That's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic
Studies. He's there.
Presenting the phase two trial results Right for MDMA assisted
therapy for severe PTSD. Exactly.
And just to paint the picture inthe next room, Donald Trump was
speaking at the same time. No way.
Yeah, Sarco chose the science presentation.
(02:28):
That says something. So what did Doblin present?
Were those results? They were, I mean, staggering
really. He showed that 67% of people,
these are folks with severe treatment resistant PTSD, 67%
experienced sustained remission.They got better and stayed
better. After just two or three
sessions. Within this very specific
(02:49):
controlled clinical model, preparation, the experience
itself and then integration afterwards, Sarco was just, you
know, floored by this. He felt like he had to do
something, had to help. He apparently jumped right up on
stage afterwards introduced himself to Doblin.
Cop and therapist background. Yeah, imagine Doblin's surprise.
He gets involved. He trains with maps.
And gets permission from his ownpolice chief, which is pretty
(03:12):
remarkable in itself, to take part in a federally sanctioned
research study as a healthy normal, they called it.
And he actually experienced MDMAhimself on camera.
It's in that Michael Pollan docuseries How to Change Your Mind.
Right. He described it as a mystical
experience. That personal journey is pretty
powerful context for everything else he talks about.
(03:34):
Absolutely. Which brings us to the crisis.
He identified this hidden epidemic within law enforcement
and 1st responders. Yeah, this is really serious.
He points to suicide rights among officers being two to
three times higher than civilianrights.
Two to three times and more copsdying by suicide than being
killed in attacks on the street.Yeah, it's a sobering statistic.
(03:54):
It completely reframes the dangers they face.
So what's behind that? Obviously the job is tough, but.
It's the the sheer volume of trauma.
An average police career, he says, involves about 200
critical incidents. 200 like murders, suicides, horrific
accidents. Yeah, severe injuries.
Compare that to maybe five such incidents for the average
(04:15):
civilian over a lifetime. The constant exposure, we must
just wear you down. He talks about it creating a
deeply activated nervous system and this dark box perspective.
You're constantly seeing people at their absolute worst.
It's isolating. It's distressing.
And then you layer on things like the whole defund the police
movement, He mentioned the demoralization that caused.
(04:37):
Yeah, feeling unappreciated, misunderstood, used as political
footballs, basically. While still running towards the
danger. When that 911 call comes in,
it's a heavy burden. Which leads right back to the
core question. If these substances like MDMA
show such incredible promise forhealing exactly this kind of
trauma, why are they still so hard to access?
(04:58):
Why the stigma? Sarko's take is pretty blunt on
this. He says the classification
schedule like no medical use whatsoever.
Most dangerous, most addictive. He just calls it a lie.
A lie. That's strong language,
especially coming from a cop. So if it is a lie, what's the
real world damage beyond just blocking access for people who
might benefit? Well the damage is immense.
Human suffering isn't it? It's denying potentially life
(05:21):
changing treatment. Look at psilocybin magic
mushrooms. The data shows anti addictive
properties. Right, like 8090% success rates
reported for opioid addiction with just one or two sessions?
Exactly, and almost no physical toxicity.
Same goes for MDMA in clinical settings.
Then there's ibogaine, which even former Governor Rick Perry
in Texas has championed for veterans with PTSD and
(05:42):
addiction. And cannabis, obviously clear
medical use is not physically lethal by any stretch.
You literally can't overdose fatally.
Right. So the schedule, I think it
just, it doesn't hold up againstthe science for these specific
compounds and controlled contexts.
It feels like the system is prioritizing an old narrative
over actual health outcomes. And the roots of that narrative,
(06:02):
they go way back, don't they? Oh, absolutely.
You can trace lines from, you know, Spanish colonizers
stamping out indigenous plant medicine right through to the US
war on drugs in the 70s, which we now know from Nixon's own
AIDS was partly designed to target anti war protesters and
black communities. It's about control, isn't it?
Control over consciousness maybe?
It certainly looks that way sometimes.
(06:24):
And the cannabis story is, wow, particularly specific.
It links right back to one guy'sbusiness interests, William
Randolph Hearst. The newspaper magnate?
Yep. Back in the 1930s, this machine
called the Decordicator was invented, made processing hemp
way easier. Suddenly, hemp was being called
the new billion dollar crop. And Hearst owned massive
(06:46):
Timberleans and pooper mills, right?
So hemp was direct competition. Big time.
So he uses his media empire, hisnewspapers, his movie studios to
launch this huge propaganda campaign.
Coins. The term marijuana makes it
sound foreign and scary. Links it to racist tropes,
Reefer madness stuff, you know, black people and Mexicans
attacking white women. Just awful stuff.
(07:07):
Truly awful and totally fabricated, but it worked.
It LED directly to cannabis prohibition.
And sideline temp, which is actually a superior material for
paper textiles, even building. All seemingly to protect one
man's profits. It's kind of incredible how that
lie took root and shaped policy for decades, and that system
profit over well-being arguably persists.
(07:29):
So even with all this history, all this new science, the
roadblocks are still there. Yeah, like the FDA recently
delaying MDMA approval. What was the reason they gave
something about the data being too good?
That was reportedly part of it, Yeah.
Concerns about how to manage expectations, maybe, and
challenges with approving a drugthat has to be paired with
(07:50):
therapy. It's not just a pill you take
home. But that delay it costs
organizations like Maps millions, sets back access for
potentially thousands of people suffering right now.
It really highlights the perception problem, as Sarco
calls it. NDMA gets lumped in with, you
know, dangerous St. drugs that raves people dying from fentanyl
(08:11):
contamination. Which is a direct result of
prohibition itself. It creates the dangerous black
market. Exactly.
The illegality forces it underground into the hands of
criminals who don't care about safety or purity.
It's a vicious cycle. Plus, there's the political
taboo, right? Totally.
Politicians are scared to touch it that 1970 70s narrative.
Drugs are for weak people. They ruin lives.
It's deeply baked in. And cops themselves, Sarco says,
(08:34):
are muzzled. They can't even talk about this,
let alone seek treatment, potentially for fear of losing
their jobs. Even though alcohol, which is
legal, is a known carcinogen andphysically addictive, the logic
is just inconsistent. But what are the counter
arguments? What are the opponents say and
how does Sarco or the data push back?
Well, the main fear is usually about uncontrolled use, right?
(08:55):
Pointing to bad outcomes in the illicit market market.
But Sarco and the research, theyconstantly stress the context.
This isn't about just legalizingeverything tomorrow with no
rules. It's about regulated medical,
therapeutic use, controlled settings, guidance, integration.
Precisely. It's a medical intervention, not
just recreational free for all. And the good news, maybe, is
(09:18):
that public perception is shifting.
Definitely thanks to the Internet, podcasts like Rogan's,
people talking more openly, you hear stories now, anecdotes from
friends, family. Oh this helped my cousin quit
smoking, or my friend got off opiates, or it lifted someone's
severe depression. It changes the story from
dangerous drug to potential toolfor healing.
(09:38):
Sarco really believes that open conversation is how you start to
turn the battleship as he puts. It OK, so if perception is
shifting and the data is there, how do we move forward safely?
That's the $1,000,000 question, isn't it?
The idea of safe supply comes upregulated access.
Because we learn from alcohol prohibition.
Making something illegal doesn'tstop demand.
(10:00):
Nope. It just empowers dangerous
criminals, cartels, the mob backin the day.
But we also saw experiments likein Portland, OR, where broad
decriminalization without enoughsupport systems kind of went
sideways. Yeah, that anything goes
approach led to real problems. Public drug use, homelessness
spikes. It showed you need more than
(10:21):
just decriminalization. You need the infrastructure.
Right, robust public health support, which brings us back to
Sarcos community, Winfruit, Massachusetts.
He talks about this model. They developed the police to
public health pipeline. They call it clear.
Community and law enforcement assisted recovery, How does that
actually work? Like on the street.
Well, the idea is when officers respond to 911 calls, they're
(10:44):
trained to look beyond just the potential crime.
They identify underlying public health issues, addiction, mental
health crises, homelessness. Instead of just making an
arrest. Exactly.
They approach the person not as a suspect necessarily, but as
someone needing help. They offer a direct connection,
a warm handoff to public health services, treatment centers,
(11:06):
mental health support. So they're not like digging for
warrants. No, the focus shifts.
It's about offering a helping hand, recognizing suffering
isn't always a criminal issue. It's a different model of
community policing. A.
More compassionate one, it sounds like.
Potentially much more effective for certain problems, yeah.
But the challenge, of course, isgetting the funding for those
robust public health services and getting buy in across the
(11:28):
board. Now the conversation also went
into some a deeper territory, the actual experience of these
substances. Oh yeah, Serger described his
own MDMA session. The one film for the docu series
called it a numinous experience.Feeling surrounded by love,
immense gratitude, total self acceptance, good parts and bad.
And his ketamine experience too.He described that as like a
(11:49):
luscious massage of his soul. Feeling connected energetically
to his wife, his martial arts teacher, even God.
It's fascinating how these experiences seem to bridge that
gap sometimes between maybe agnosticism or atheism and a
sense of spirituality. It touches on ancient practices,
maybe even controversial theories like John Marco
(12:09):
Allegra's idea about early Christianity and psychedelic
mushrooms. Sacred Mushroom in the Cross?
Yeah, that book caused a stir. But it points to this long
history of humans seeking altered states, seeking
connection. And it makes you question our
narrow definition of medicine doesn't.
It totally if things like community, joy, even exercise,
which Asarco points out is oftenstatistically better than SSRIs
(12:31):
for depression, if those can be medicine.
Then why do we usually reserve the term just for pills from a
pharmacy? Have we sort of lost the power
to define healing for ourselves?It feels like it sometimes.
And stepping back, Sarco suggests this historical
suppression of psychedelics starting around 1970.
It wasn't just about the substances, it was about
controlling consciousness, controlling expression.
(12:53):
He wonders how different the world might be if that cultural
shift, that burst of creativity like Jimi Hendrix represented,
hadn't been stifled. Maybe less conflict?
It's a big what if he also talksabout the clinician's enforcers
delusion, that constant exposureto the worst.
It warps your perception, makes you rely on biases.
Yeah. And the system often operates
(13:14):
from that place of fear, designing laws around the, you
know, tiny percentage of truly bad actors, the sociopaths,
instead of designing for the vast majority, the 98% who are
empathic and generally good. And that system, maybe
unintentionally, maybe not, has often profited more from keeping
people sick than from truly making them well.
It's a heavy thought. Wow.
(13:34):
What an incredible journey we'vetaken today, really, from the
front lines of policing to theselike profound inner worlds
opened up by psychedelics, We'veseen how one person's really
unique path is helping challengedecades of, well,
misinformation. Yeah, and shining a light on the
silent suffering of first responders advocating for more
(13:55):
compassion, evidence based ways forward in public health.
It makes you think, doesn't it, if the system, as Sarco
suggests, has sometimes profitedfrom illness rather than
healing? What other parts of our lives
might look radically different if we started reclaiming our own
power? If we decided for ourselves what
truly serves our health, our well-being, our freedom.
So maybe the question for you listening is what truths do you
(14:18):
hold about these substances? Sure, but maybe also by human
nature or how society has to work?
Where do those beliefs actually come from?
And you know, what might you discover if you just allowed
yourself to question them, to maybe explore just a little bit
further?
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today on The Deep Dive, we're
plunging into an absolutely fascinating conversation that
really challenges everything youthought you knew about law
enforcement, healing, and, well,the whole nature of what we call
drugs. Yeah, we've pulled out the most
compelling bits from a recent Joe Rogan Experience episode.
It featured Sarco Jarjarian. He's a pretty unique individual,
(00:22):
kind of sitting at this intersection of policing and
psychedelic therapy. Exactly.
And our mission today really is to unpack how these rigid
definitions, you know, the historical stories we tell about
certain substances, how they're being seriously challenged both
by, like, hard science and theseincredible personal stories.
And we'll dig into what this could mean healing individuals,
(00:43):
especially, you know, our first responders, and also for just
the bigger picture, pursuit of truth, maybe even freedom in
society. OK, so let's get into it.
Our deep dive starts with Sarco Giugiri and himself.
He's a Massachusetts law enforcement professional
Lieutenant for, what, 15 years? Yeah, something like that.
And he's also a trained psychedelic assisted therapist.
(01:03):
And get this, he's believed to be the first police officer to
actually get a religious exemption at work to use in
theogens. Which are, you know, substances
used in a spiritual context basically to connect.
That's huge. It really is.
And his path into this whole field is, it's really telling.
He studied psychology 1st but apparently found it to
(01:26):
observable. Observable like not deep enough.
Yeah, sort of like rats pressinglaborers was his take.
I think he was searching for something more drawn to
philosophy, religion, and then this is crucial.
He was a security guard back in the 90s, Boston nightclubs,
right? And he saw first hand that
social shift when MDMA, you know, XT, first hit the scene
(01:47):
big time. He literally watched people
change from being closed off. Like, who are you?
What do you want? He's set in connecting.
Yeah, genuinely connecting, highfiving, hugging.
That image, that feeling, it just stuck with him.
Wow. OK, so Fast forward, he's in his
30s, he's a cop now. He goes to his International
Association of Chiefs of Police conference, the IECP down in
Orlando. And this is where it gets almost
(02:07):
like surreal Rick Doblin from MAP.
PS That's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic
Studies. He's there.
Presenting the phase two trial results Right for MDMA assisted
therapy for severe PTSD. Exactly.
And just to paint the picture inthe next room, Donald Trump was
speaking at the same time. No way.
Yeah, Sarco chose the science presentation.
(02:28):
That says something. So what did Doblin present?
Were those results? They were, I mean, staggering
really. He showed that 67% of people,
these are folks with severe treatment resistant PTSD, 67%
experienced sustained remission.They got better and stayed
better. After just two or three
sessions. Within this very specific
(02:49):
controlled clinical model, preparation, the experience
itself and then integration afterwards, Sarco was just, you
know, floored by this. He felt like he had to do
something, had to help. He apparently jumped right up on
stage afterwards introduced himself to Doblin.
Cop and therapist background. Yeah, imagine Doblin's surprise.
He gets involved. He trains with maps.
And gets permission from his ownpolice chief, which is pretty
(03:12):
remarkable in itself, to take part in a federally sanctioned
research study as a healthy normal, they called it.
And he actually experienced MDMAhimself on camera.
It's in that Michael Pollan docuseries How to Change Your Mind.
Right. He described it as a mystical
experience. That personal journey is pretty
powerful context for everything else he talks about.
(03:34):
Absolutely. Which brings us to the crisis.
He identified this hidden epidemic within law enforcement
and 1st responders. Yeah, this is really serious.
He points to suicide rights among officers being two to
three times higher than civilianrights.
Two to three times and more copsdying by suicide than being
killed in attacks on the street.Yeah, it's a sobering statistic.
(03:54):
It completely reframes the dangers they face.
So what's behind that? Obviously the job is tough, but.
It's the the sheer volume of trauma.
An average police career, he says, involves about 200
critical incidents. 200 like murders, suicides, horrific
accidents. Yeah, severe injuries.
Compare that to maybe five such incidents for the average
(04:15):
civilian over a lifetime. The constant exposure, we must
just wear you down. He talks about it creating a
deeply activated nervous system and this dark box perspective.
You're constantly seeing people at their absolute worst.
It's isolating. It's distressing.
And then you layer on things like the whole defund the police
movement, He mentioned the demoralization that caused.
(04:37):
Yeah, feeling unappreciated, misunderstood, used as political
footballs, basically. While still running towards the
danger. When that 911 call comes in,
it's a heavy burden. Which leads right back to the
core question. If these substances like MDMA
show such incredible promise forhealing exactly this kind of
trauma, why are they still so hard to access?
(04:58):
Why the stigma? Sarko's take is pretty blunt on
this. He says the classification
schedule like no medical use whatsoever.
Most dangerous, most addictive. He just calls it a lie.
A lie. That's strong language,
especially coming from a cop. So if it is a lie, what's the
real world damage beyond just blocking access for people who
might benefit? Well the damage is immense.
Human suffering isn't it? It's denying potentially life
(05:21):
changing treatment. Look at psilocybin magic
mushrooms. The data shows anti addictive
properties. Right, like 8090% success rates
reported for opioid addiction with just one or two sessions?
Exactly, and almost no physical toxicity.
Same goes for MDMA in clinical settings.
Then there's ibogaine, which even former Governor Rick Perry
in Texas has championed for veterans with PTSD and
(05:42):
addiction. And cannabis, obviously clear
medical use is not physically lethal by any stretch.
You literally can't overdose fatally.
Right. So the schedule, I think it
just, it doesn't hold up againstthe science for these specific
compounds and controlled contexts.
It feels like the system is prioritizing an old narrative
over actual health outcomes. And the roots of that narrative,
(06:02):
they go way back, don't they? Oh, absolutely.
You can trace lines from, you know, Spanish colonizers
stamping out indigenous plant medicine right through to the US
war on drugs in the 70s, which we now know from Nixon's own
AIDS was partly designed to target anti war protesters and
black communities. It's about control, isn't it?
Control over consciousness maybe?
It certainly looks that way sometimes.
(06:24):
And the cannabis story is, wow, particularly specific.
It links right back to one guy'sbusiness interests, William
Randolph Hearst. The newspaper magnate?
Yep. Back in the 1930s, this machine
called the Decordicator was invented, made processing hemp
way easier. Suddenly, hemp was being called
the new billion dollar crop. And Hearst owned massive
(06:46):
Timberleans and pooper mills, right?
So hemp was direct competition. Big time.
So he uses his media empire, hisnewspapers, his movie studios to
launch this huge propaganda campaign.
Coins. The term marijuana makes it
sound foreign and scary. Links it to racist tropes,
Reefer madness stuff, you know, black people and Mexicans
attacking white women. Just awful stuff.
(07:07):
Truly awful and totally fabricated, but it worked.
It LED directly to cannabis prohibition.
And sideline temp, which is actually a superior material for
paper textiles, even building. All seemingly to protect one
man's profits. It's kind of incredible how that
lie took root and shaped policy for decades, and that system
profit over well-being arguably persists.
(07:29):
So even with all this history, all this new science, the
roadblocks are still there. Yeah, like the FDA recently
delaying MDMA approval. What was the reason they gave
something about the data being too good?
That was reportedly part of it, Yeah.
Concerns about how to manage expectations, maybe, and
challenges with approving a drugthat has to be paired with
(07:50):
therapy. It's not just a pill you take
home. But that delay it costs
organizations like Maps millions, sets back access for
potentially thousands of people suffering right now.
It really highlights the perception problem, as Sarco
calls it. NDMA gets lumped in with, you
know, dangerous St. drugs that raves people dying from fentanyl
(08:11):
contamination. Which is a direct result of
prohibition itself. It creates the dangerous black
market. Exactly.
The illegality forces it underground into the hands of
criminals who don't care about safety or purity.
It's a vicious cycle. Plus, there's the political
taboo, right? Totally.
Politicians are scared to touch it that 1970 70s narrative.
Drugs are for weak people. They ruin lives.
It's deeply baked in. And cops themselves, Sarco says,
(08:34):
are muzzled. They can't even talk about this,
let alone seek treatment, potentially for fear of losing
their jobs. Even though alcohol, which is
legal, is a known carcinogen andphysically addictive, the logic
is just inconsistent. But what are the counter
arguments? What are the opponents say and
how does Sarco or the data push back?
Well, the main fear is usually about uncontrolled use, right?
(08:55):
Pointing to bad outcomes in the illicit market market.
But Sarco and the research, theyconstantly stress the context.
This isn't about just legalizingeverything tomorrow with no
rules. It's about regulated medical,
therapeutic use, controlled settings, guidance, integration.
Precisely. It's a medical intervention, not
just recreational free for all. And the good news, maybe, is
(09:18):
that public perception is shifting.
Definitely thanks to the Internet, podcasts like Rogan's,
people talking more openly, you hear stories now, anecdotes from
friends, family. Oh this helped my cousin quit
smoking, or my friend got off opiates, or it lifted someone's
severe depression. It changes the story from
dangerous drug to potential toolfor healing.
(09:38):
Sarco really believes that open conversation is how you start to
turn the battleship as he puts. It OK, so if perception is
shifting and the data is there, how do we move forward safely?
That's the $1,000,000 question, isn't it?
The idea of safe supply comes upregulated access.
Because we learn from alcohol prohibition.
Making something illegal doesn'tstop demand.
(10:00):
Nope. It just empowers dangerous
criminals, cartels, the mob backin the day.
But we also saw experiments likein Portland, OR, where broad
decriminalization without enoughsupport systems kind of went
sideways. Yeah, that anything goes
approach led to real problems. Public drug use, homelessness
spikes. It showed you need more than
(10:21):
just decriminalization. You need the infrastructure.
Right, robust public health support, which brings us back to
Sarcos community, Winfruit, Massachusetts.
He talks about this model. They developed the police to
public health pipeline. They call it clear.
Community and law enforcement assisted recovery, How does that
actually work? Like on the street.
Well, the idea is when officers respond to 911 calls, they're
(10:44):
trained to look beyond just the potential crime.
They identify underlying public health issues, addiction, mental
health crises, homelessness. Instead of just making an
arrest. Exactly.
They approach the person not as a suspect necessarily, but as
someone needing help. They offer a direct connection,
a warm handoff to public health services, treatment centers,
(11:06):
mental health support. So they're not like digging for
warrants. No, the focus shifts.
It's about offering a helping hand, recognizing suffering
isn't always a criminal issue. It's a different model of
community policing. A.
More compassionate one, it sounds like.
Potentially much more effective for certain problems, yeah.
But the challenge, of course, isgetting the funding for those
robust public health services and getting buy in across the
(11:28):
board. Now the conversation also went
into some a deeper territory, the actual experience of these
substances. Oh yeah, Serger described his
own MDMA session. The one film for the docu series
called it a numinous experience.Feeling surrounded by love,
immense gratitude, total self acceptance, good parts and bad.
And his ketamine experience too.He described that as like a
(11:49):
luscious massage of his soul. Feeling connected energetically
to his wife, his martial arts teacher, even God.
It's fascinating how these experiences seem to bridge that
gap sometimes between maybe agnosticism or atheism and a
sense of spirituality. It touches on ancient practices,
maybe even controversial theories like John Marco
(12:09):
Allegra's idea about early Christianity and psychedelic
mushrooms. Sacred Mushroom in the Cross?
Yeah, that book caused a stir. But it points to this long
history of humans seeking altered states, seeking
connection. And it makes you question our
narrow definition of medicine doesn't.
It totally if things like community, joy, even exercise,
which Asarco points out is oftenstatistically better than SSRIs
(12:31):
for depression, if those can be medicine.
Then why do we usually reserve the term just for pills from a
pharmacy? Have we sort of lost the power
to define healing for ourselves?It feels like it sometimes.
And stepping back, Sarco suggests this historical
suppression of psychedelics starting around 1970.
It wasn't just about the substances, it was about
controlling consciousness, controlling expression.
(12:53):
He wonders how different the world might be if that cultural
shift, that burst of creativity like Jimi Hendrix represented,
hadn't been stifled. Maybe less conflict?
It's a big what if he also talksabout the clinician's enforcers
delusion, that constant exposureto the worst.
It warps your perception, makes you rely on biases.
Yeah. And the system often operates
(13:14):
from that place of fear, designing laws around the, you
know, tiny percentage of truly bad actors, the sociopaths,
instead of designing for the vast majority, the 98% who are
empathic and generally good. And that system, maybe
unintentionally, maybe not, has often profited more from keeping
people sick than from truly making them well.
It's a heavy thought. Wow.
(13:34):
What an incredible journey we'vetaken today, really, from the
front lines of policing to theselike profound inner worlds
opened up by psychedelics, We'veseen how one person's really
unique path is helping challengedecades of, well,
misinformation. Yeah, and shining a light on the
silent suffering of first responders advocating for more
(13:55):
compassion, evidence based ways forward in public health.
It makes you think, doesn't it, if the system, as Sarco
suggests, has sometimes profitedfrom illness rather than
healing? What other parts of our lives
might look radically different if we started reclaiming our own
power? If we decided for ourselves what
truly serves our health, our well-being, our freedom.
So maybe the question for you listening is what truths do you
(14:18):
hold about these substances? Sure, but maybe also by human
nature or how society has to work?
Where do those beliefs actually come from?
And you know, what might you discover if you just allowed
yourself to question them, to maybe explore just a little bit
further?
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