June 24, 2025 • 41 mins
Host: Julie Williams, MSc – Executive Coach and Founder of Lighting Fires
Guest: Annie Willmot – Deputy CEO of Reading Students’ Union
Episode Overview:
In this inspiring episode, Julie Williams speaks with Annie Willmot about her personal and professional journey from conflict-avoidant team member to confident, values-led leader. As Deputy CEO of Reading Students’ Union, Annie opens up about the challenges of people-pleasing, avoiding difficult conversations, and learning to embrace her own leadership style.
Expect a very honest conversation, as honest conversations are very much part of Annie's approach to everything.
Through executive coaching, Annie discovered how to approach conflict with clarity, communicate with confidence, and lead with compassion. She shares how coaching, combined with tools like Myers-Briggs, helped her understand her strengths, navigate uncertainty, and build trust in her voice as a leader.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
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How executive coaching can support confident, authentic leadership
-
Why conflict can be a catalyst for growth
-
The value of personality profiling tools like MBTI
-
How self-reflection builds emotional intelligence and leadership confidence
-
Why embracing your own style is a strength, not a weakness
Annie’s Personal Reflection Questions:
-
What impact am I currently having?
-
What’s missing?
-
What do the next three months look like?
Annie’s Coaching Metaphor:
“Before coaching, it felt like a grey sky with the sun peeking through. Through coaching, the clouds moved away—revealing the sun that had been there all along.”
Julie’s Top Coaching Tips:
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Use coaching tools beyond the session — they’re designed for long-term growth
-
Build time for regular reflection (even if it doesn’t come naturally)
-
Embrace your leadership style — it’s okay to lead differently
-
Don’t fear conflict — handled well, it can unlock progress
Resources Mentioned:
-
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) – supports deeper insight into communication and leadership preferences
Connect with Julie Williams:
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annie (00:05):
We came up with a tool that I have used since, which was my
three month impact review, whichsounds like a very formal way of
doing, but I like quite like reviews.
Um, so I've got a reminder that popsup in my phone every three months
and then I've got three questionswhich I ask myself, which are,
what impact am I currently having?
What's missing?
And then what's the nextthree months look like?
(00:25):
I think for me that's felt,that felt really important to.
Just be really purposeful becauseI think that's what I get out of
coaching is that like, this feelslike a really purposeful conversation.
How can I put tools in placethat's gonna help me to feel this
purposeful outside of here as well.
Julie (00:40):
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
My name is Julie Williams and I'm a coach.
I have a master's in coaching andbehavioral change over 10 years of
running my own coaching practiceand 15 years in marketing leadership
roles, including Accenture.
Where I've worked with Microsoft.
In my work, I gain the benefitof walking with people through
(01:02):
their lives for a short time.
So on this podcast, you'll getto hear from people experiencing
key moments of change in theirbusiness and personal lives.
We'll hear what lit theirfires and the techniques that
created significant shifts.
I hope you find their story inspiring.
(01:22):
In this interview, I meet with AnnieWilmott, deputy Chief Executive at Reading
Students Union and Director of MembershipEngagement here.. We explore a wide
range of topics and the idea of findingthe golden thread in your career and how
this can propel you forward with purpose.
We discuss how it's okay to beambitious and to negotiate the pay
(01:44):
that you deserve and the importanceof having honest conversations.
I hope you enjoy this episode andfind something useful to take away.
So welcome to the Lightsand Fires podcast.
Annie, would you liketo introduce yourself?
Annie (02:02):
Um, I'm Annie
Wilmott.
I am currently working forReading Students Union.
I'm Deputy CEO and Director ofMembership Engagement, which is
a bit of a mouthful as a title.
I am mum to two boys whoare incredibly energetic.
Um.
Married to Pete.
I spend a lot of my time reading ifI can, or outside with the boys who
(02:24):
are like puppies and need fresh air.
Yeah.
Julie (02:27):
Thank you.
So we started our coachingwork back in 2021.
Early, I think so, yeah.
21. Yeah.
So a while ago.
And we, and we met ata shared office space.
Annie (02:39):
Yeah.
Julie (02:39):
Didn't we?
Where we were both basedat the time in Reading.
So I wanted to start with asking you.
What brought you tocoaching in the first place?
Annie (02:49):
Yeah, so I, I've been a big fan of coaching for a long time.
When I finished university, I was doingsocial work and I went into a, a job where
I was coaching unemployed young people.
So I, I trained as a coachspecifically for that purpose of
helping young people back intoeducation, employment, or training.
And a lot of that about was,was about seeing the potential
(03:11):
in, in those young people and.
Facilitating groupsessions for some of that.
So I think that's probably where I firststarted to fall in love with coaching.
Then went through a bit of a phase of nothaving any coaching, occasionally tapping
into maybe podcasts or books and thinkingabout what kind of questions I asked.
Yeah, and then any opportunity I'vehad over the last couple of years to
(03:31):
get coaching, I've seized it and beingreally advocate for anyone who wants
to get coaching to say it's worth it.
Just the space to think andbe asked questions that.
Can help you really focuson what you're doing.
Yeah.
Not an opportunity topass up, I don't think.
Yeah.
Julie (03:45):
Oh, it's always hugely valuable.
I always think everybody should have Yeah.
Coaching.
Yeah.
Including myself.
So, um, do you wanna tell us a bit aboutyour, bit more about your backstory?
Annie (03:55):
Yeah.
Julie (03:56):
will you share.
Annie (03:57):
So it's always hard to know how far to go back in your backstory.
I went to uni originally to study law.
Partway through, the kind ofstart of that course, I thought,
this is not what I wanna do.
I remember speaking to a lot of people whoweren't enjoying it either, but they said,
oh, that's fine though, because I'm gonnaearn lots of money and have this sort of,
whoa, I can't do a job just for money.
That's not enough for me.
(04:18):
I need to find something fulfilling.
So I switched to social work, Iironically never became a social
worker, then worked as a coach, thenI worked for a church doing, um,
work with children and families.
I got married, had my first son, andthen was working, kind of building a
national network and website and thingsfor a charity that did kind of parenting
and faith stuff, um, with families.
(04:40):
Had another son and then fromthat went into, I. I think after
that I started writing a book.
So I'd been blogging about Parenthoodand Faith, which all started
after a conversation with anothermum friend who had her newborn.
So we both sat there with our tinybabies and I asked her how she was
doing, and she said, honestly, I'mnot enjoying it, but I don't feel like
(05:02):
I'm allowed to say that to anyone.
And for me it was justthis moment of like.
You, we should be allowed to say somethingis really hard, and that doesn't take
away from the fact that we know it'sa privilege or we love that thing.
So I started writing aboutthe messiness of parenthood.
So then I'd been doing that for a while.
Then this opportunity towrite a book on that came up.
So I wrote a book and at that point Istarted working as a funeral pastor.
(05:26):
Taking funeral services, so meetingfamilies and then taking 'em through that
service writing, reading a eulogy to helppeople say goodbye to their families.
Well, so that was an interesting periodin terms of doing those things together.
Out of that, worked for a localcharity called Connect Reading.
Which is when we met in that coworkingspace while still doing the funerals.
Alongside, aside, alongside that.
(05:46):
Yeah.
And then moved into working instudents unions, which is what I'm
doing now in a digital and comms role.
So I think, um, whenever I used tolook at this, I'd think it was kind
of windy road and I couldn't quitefigure out how it all matched up.
But I think through our coaching,actually it was when I started to
piece some of those things together.
'cause I've got a real passion forcommunity and connection and people being
(06:09):
able to just have honest conversationsand connect authentically with each other.
And actually that goes through allof the stuff I've done, whether it's
digital and comms, or for funerals.
Um, so it kinda makes sense to menow that my, my career path is in
a, in a place where inclusion andpeople, finding a place where they
belong is really, really important.
(06:29):
Yeah.
So it feels like it makes sensenow when I look back on Yeah, it's
brought me to where I am currently.
Julie (06:33):
It's definitely a golden thread, isn't it that's coming through there.
What's the title of your book?
Annie (06:38):
Cold Cups of Tea and Hiding in the Loo.
Which I haven't yet said thatto a parent who hasn't said,
oh yeah, that makes sense.
Julie (06:45):
Yeah, I remember that well, yeah, and And it's interesting, isn't it?
What you say about, you know, it isalright to be honest about things being
difficult, even when it is a privilege.
'cause it is a privilegeto be a parent with.
We are very fortunate.
And it is really challenging at times.
I remember my whole worldjust imploded when I had kids.
(07:08):
I'd had a jet setting global career andsuddenly I was pushing a pram, a kinda
half mile radius of my house and notseeing anybody very often and finding
going to baby groups and chatting aboutwhether other people's babies were
sleeping through the night yet, I mean,the conversation, the shift and things
(07:32):
I was talking about was unbelievable.
And it, it does kind of, it's a bitof a, a shock to the system, isn't it?
Annie (07:40):
Yeah, it is.
And then there are so many expectationson what parenthood should look
like, or you feel like there are,but unless we talk really honestly
about that stuff, you have no idea.
You just think that everyoneelse has it sorted and you don't
Julie (07:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everyone's this perfect parent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, um, what, what were you hopingto get out of our coaching work?
What were your aims?
Annie (08:04):
I think I was trying to figure out what was next and to
figure out what was making me feel.
Stuck, I guess.
So kind of some of thatlike getting unstuck.
A lot of it was that.
And thinking about the kind of thingsthat I felt that, yeah, maybe were
holding me back or just processing,what did I need to do to move on
to the next stage in my career?
(08:25):
I probably didn't realize thatat the beginning, but yeah, some
of that, what's, what's next?
What do I need to focus on?
Yeah.
Julie (08:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
So I remember one of the first thingswe did was talk about how much you'd
already achieved in your, your life andcareer so far, and you've put together
this awesome piece of artwork on Canva,which I found really inspirational.
(08:52):
It was, it was something creativelyreally kind of, I don't know.
Something really freshabout it and appealing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what, what was that likefor you putting that together?
Annie (09:04):
It was
really good.
And it's interesting that you talk aboutthe creativeness of it because I think
that's something we touched on and I oftentouched on it, those points in my life
where I feel a bit stuck in terms of work.
Sometimes I'll have neglected thecreative part of me a bit, so bringing
that in while I'm processing, definitely.
Helps me tap into something more about me.
I think it was a really good exercise.
We've just looked back at the picturenow and I think, um, I can remember even
(09:28):
just writing the word achievements on it.
And the word yay.
Um, I found it really hard to just evencelebrate stuff 'cause I think, um, I'm
always so keen to learn the next thing andto complete stuff and move on to the next
thing that I'm not very good at pausingto reflect and to when I'm good at pausing
to reflect, but I reflect to move on.
(09:49):
I don't reflect to stop and celebrate.
So it was a really good exercise andI think I found it more difficult
than you might imagine because, yeah.
'cause I find that thing, thosekind of things hard to do.
I think because my book launched rightat the beginning of the pandemic.
I didn't sell it in the waythat I might have expected going
out and doing talks about it.
I changed jobs rather than continuingto focus on that, I think I probably
(10:10):
didn't allow myself to like reallyrecognize what an achievement it is
to have written and published a book.
So it was good to stopand and write that down.
Yeah.
Actually, all the things that we wrotedown on that important to recognize all
the hard work that went into those things.
Julie (10:22):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And the, and the variation of allthe things that you've done as well.
I find the piece around the funeralreally fascinating, that ability to
be with people in a very vulnerable,difficult moment of their lives
and guide them through that.
That that's quite anunusual skill to have.
Annie (10:44):
Yeah, I've had, I've had people ask me like, how did you, emotionally,
how did you handle doing funerals?
And I think there is, it's, I'vealways felt there's something really
different about holding someone else'sgrief compared to if it was your own.
And I find that interesting.
Reflecting on recently andactually thinking about how
resilient I am as a person.
I'm sure a lot of thatdoes come from that.
(11:05):
It has been developed through thatperiod of taking funerals and being
able to hold all of that and hearreally, really sad stories repeatedly
and help people through that space.
Yeah, there's some amazing learningthere in terms of being able to
help someone with their emotion, butnot to take it all on you I think.
So I did a hun.. I think I did funeralsfor two years and I've done a few since
(11:25):
when families have asked me, but I did146 funerals in that time over two year
period, which when I added it up, when Iwas at the point of thinking, I think I
might be done with these and I added upthe number I thought, okay, no, it makes
sense that I might be done because asmuch as I was able to hold all of that and
be resilient through it, I had reached apoint probably mostly because of Covid,
I think, where I just thought actuallyemotionally I haven't got it in me right
(11:49):
now for this because, and it's probablypart of that I was holding other people's
grief, but actually we all had so muchof our own grief during Covid as well.
And it's almost likeit reached my capacity.
'cause I was.
One of the things I loved aboutfunerals was you'd go to someone's
house and you'd sit and have a cupof tea, and they'd tell you all the
stories about the person who died.
But when Covid came, suddenly youwere doing that on a phone, so you
(12:10):
couldn't make eye contact with someone.
So if they were crying on the phoneand you're saying to them, it's okay.
They can't, you can't really show thatto someone when they can't see your
face to show that you really mean it.
And then you'd get to a funeral.
I'd not have met the people,but you'd all be wearing masks.
So really hard just from someone'seyes to figure out who they might be.
And then you'd be delivering a eulogy,which I'd written and they'd read it
(12:32):
beforehand to, you know, to check itwas the right facts and everything, but
you're reading this incredibly emotionalpiece and hoping that it's connecting with
people, but you can't see their faces.
And yeah, I think I had one that was justparticularly hard to read out for that
reason, and I just had a moment, I thinkduring the funeral I thought, I don't
think I can keep doing this because.
What for me was important about funerals,was delivering that service in the best
(12:54):
way possible to help people say goodbye.
Well, and I thought, I don't, I can'ttell if I'm doing that at the moment.
So yeah, it felt like the right timeto stop and it was the right time in
terms of other things going on as well.
Julie (13:05):
But a hundred forty six, a hundred forty six, that's incredible.
Annie (13:09):
Yeah, that's, it's a lot, isn't it?
Julie (13:11):
Yeah,
it's definitely, yeah.
Okay, so let's talk a bitabout the coaching then.
Annie (13:17):
Yeah.
Julie (13:17):
So.
When you look back, were therekey moments of change or something
shifted or you had a realization?
Often we call those kind of criticalmoments in the coaching world and, and
could you tell us a bit about them?
Annie (13:34):
Yeah, I think there were lots of those.
I think the one we were talking about,my achievements was quite a big one,
probably because that's a practicethat I've put in since, so I haven't
done it in such a visual way, and Ithink I might go away from here and
do it a bit more creatively again.
But I've started trying to writedown the things that I've achieved
and celebrate all those things,and actually it's something I
try and do with my team as well.
(13:55):
So I think that was really impactful.
I think thinking about whatimpact I wanted to have.
I think I realized how having an impactto me is what's really important.
Whatever I do, I want to know that I am.
Yeah.
Having some kind of impact.
So we came up with a tool that I haveused since, which was my three month
impact review, which sounds like a veryformal way of doing it, but I like.
(14:19):
Quite like reviews.
Um, so, I've got a reminder that popsup in my phone every three months
and then I've got three questionswhich I ask myself, which are,
what impact am I currently having?
What's missing?
And then what's the nextthree months look like?
I think for me that's felt, thatfelt really important to just be
really purposeful because I thinkthat's what I get out of coaching
is that like, this feels like areally purposeful conversation.
(14:40):
How can I put tools in place that's.
Gonna help me to feel thispurposeful outside of here as well.
Yeah.
Julie (14:45):
And that's then very sustainable, isn't it?
You're taking that coachingforward into your life.
Annie (14:50):
Yeah,
and then I was thinking, the otherone I think was when we were having
the coaching, I was thinking aboutwhat was next and then moved into the
place of having job interviews and weprepped for quite a few different ones.
And I think there are a fewmoments in that process that.
Were really impactful for me, I thinkthrough all the conversations we had,
I got to a place where I thought, I'mgonna go and interview into an interview.
(15:12):
I'm gonna present myself.
And we talked through a lot about what,what do I want 'em to know about me?
And I was doing interviewsand thinking, actually do you
know what I've presented me?
And if they don't wantme, then that's fine.
That's not the space, which felt likea really different way to approach it.
But in the interview for the place I'mnow working can remember we prepped for
that and I was thinking a lot about whatthat role would look like if I got it.
(15:32):
And it would be one steppinginto a senior leadership team.
And I'm thinking if I go there,I'm going to be a senior leader.
So when I go to the interview, I'm goinginto that interview as a senior leader.
But I remember we talked about, um,what interview questions I might do.
And I think you shared onethat your dad had given you.
Julie (15:47):
Oh yeah.
Annie (15:47):
Was to ask them at the end of the interview, what would you see the
first six months of my work being, orwhat's the first project I'd work on?
Julie (15:53):
Yeah.
Annie (15:53):
And I asked that in the interview and there was something about that for me.
Imagine like imagining myself inthat job, but about positioning
it to them to get them thinkingabout what that would look like.
Julie (16:03):
Yeah.
Annie (16:03):
And I think I would use that in any interview again, since that was really,
Julie (16:07):
yeah.
Good.
That's really interestingyou should bring that up.
I remember that moment really well.
Because my dad had only just passedaway a few weeks before that into, in
fact, I've got a feeling that ours mighthave been the first coaching session,
Annie (16:23):
I think it might have been,
Julie (16:24):
I had done since he had died.
I'd taken a, a month off work,uh, after a really difficult time.
And, um, I've been holdingmyself together really well.
And then this came up and I thought.
I'm gonna reflect on some of the thingsthat my, my dad had shared with me
because he had been, um, director ofHR at Blackwell's Publishing Company
(16:48):
and booksellers, and, and he hadactually gone on to become a coach.
So, you know, it was just a bit oddthat we'd ended up doing similar things.
But as I talked to you aboutthat question, it just brought
so much emotion back for me, andI really, I had to do everything
I could to button all that down.
Annie (17:09):
Yeah.
Julie (17:09):
And compartmentalize, because I knew it wouldn't serve either you or me
Annie (17:14):
Yeah.
Julie (17:14):
In that moment.
But I, I did nearly lose at that point.
And actually it's coming up tothe third anniversary of his
death, um, in two weeks time.
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Yeah.
I don't think we've ever really talked.
Annie (17:27):
No, I don't think we have.
No.
And I've thought about thata lot since because it felt,
it felt really special to me.
I think we didn't talk about themoment, but I was aware how much
you were probably holding in.
I think it felt really specialto me that you were willing to
give me something that was his.
Oh, I feel a bit emotional now.
Yeah.
And I've thought about that a lot since.
But I think that is one of theamazing things about coaching.
'cause even when you're not saying,this is a thing I learned from this
(17:50):
person so much, much of coachingis you reflecting on what you've
learned in your life from people andpassing that on to others, isn't it?
Julie (17:56):
Oh yeah,
Annie (17:57):
absolutely.
Julie (17:58):
And as coaches, you know, we are taught to.
Not give advice.
Yeah.
And not to pass on, but in my experience.
It is, it is the personal stories,either of myself as a coach, but in
my previous life of my career, youknow, in, in the corporate world or
other clients, anonymized storiesthat are so helpful for people.
(18:22):
So,
Annie (18:23):
yeah.
Julie (18:24):
Yeah, that did feel like a little gift to actually,
Annie (18:26):
yeah,
Julie (18:27):
A gift from my dad, and a gift to you too.
Annie (18:29):
Yeah.
Julie (18:29):
Yeah.
And it is a great question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So just thinking, I just, just torepeat the question, it's : in an
interview situation, asking peoplewhat they would like you to deliver
in the first kind of three to sixmonths is, is really powerful.
'cause it demonstrates that you arealready seeing yourself doing the role.
Annie (18:48):
Yeah.
Julie (18:48):
And you're gonna be really useful really quickly.
Annie (18:52):
Yeah.
Julie (18:52):
Yeah.
Thank you.
That one that was expected.
Are you feeling stuck and needsome help moving forwards?
At lighting fires, I work with businessleaders, future leaders, and their teams
to ignite their full leadership potential.
(19:12):
Whether you're a business owneror leading in an organization,
we can work together to create aprogram tailored to your priorities.
Throughout our coaching together, I seemy clients' confidence and capabilities
grow as they gain a greater understandingof how they work, learn to make quicker
decisions and develop a vision for theirrole and a plan on how to get there.
(19:35):
Through the challenges, and thebreakthroughs, you'll have me by your
side . Get in touch on LinkedIn oremail me julie@lightingfires.co uk.
So any other moments things shiftedfor you or something changed?
Annie (20:00):
I think there were lots.
Of others too.
I think the other one we talked aboutwas because we were, I was going through
a bit of a negotiation on my pay at thetime that we first spoke, and looking
back, I've been in quite a lot of placeswhere, I think we talked about this
at the time, like I've not really beenpaid for the level of work I was doing.
I've worked in places where my husband andI both worked somewhere at the same time.
(20:22):
We were working at the same level,and we both got promoted, but they
created another level so they couldput us lower down the pay scale.
Rather than paying us for the role wewere doing, which now I look back on and
I would, well, I did go and challengeit, but would challenge it much harder
probably by not working there anymore.
But it's all learning.
Um, so yeah.
And I think I, I thinkwe talked a lot about.
(20:42):
That having worked in places where theassumption is that you do that thing
for a charity perhaps because youknow it's, it's a calling and you know
you're not doing this for the money.
And actually someone else tellingme that I'm not doing something
for the money is not okay.
But also I think that I'veexperienced some sexism within that.
And I think in terms of peopleviewing that women shouldn't be
ambitious, I was quite aware of that.
(21:04):
This would've been asimilar time actually.
Yeah.
During Covid and, and that periodwhere some of the friends I had at
that point I was talking about likeworking whilst having the kids at
home and they were like, but youcan't work full-time and be a mum.
That's when I was looking at thatjob, this job, which is full-time.
'cause I made a switch to doing full-time,although before I was doing three jobs
and effectively still working full-time.
But yeah, so I think it was.
(21:25):
I found myself reflecting on all thosedifferent things, the places I've
worked in, where I've perhaps notfelt valued by the amount I was paid.
The feeling criticized for wantingto be ambitious and to work, and I
think that's something that reallyshifted for me in terms of thinking
actually it is okay to be ambitious.
It's also okay to want to beable to afford a house, you know?
And I'm not ashamed of the fact that I'mnow trying to earn more money so that one
(21:47):
day we get to buy a house and yeah, thatfelt quite a big kind of shift for me.
Actually, and also in terms of, youknow, if someone else says something
else, then that that's on them.
Like they don't get toput that on me, I think.
Julie (21:58):
And you, you got the salary that you wanted.
Annie (22:02):
Yeah.
Julie (22:02):
Which was fantastic.
Annie (22:03):
Yeah,
it was.
Julie (22:04):
Yeah.
Annie (22:05):
Yeah.
And I think something I reflected onin that, and I've had conversations
recently with people about stufflike this, is that I got the salary
I wanted and that was great, but itwas also okay to still then think that
perhaps I'm ready for the next thing.
And I think sometimes again, posswell, this might happen in any role.
I think it's easy for us to think.
It, but perhaps I've experienced it quitea bit in the charity sector of feeling
(22:26):
like you're obliged to stay somewhere.
And the fact they gave me apay rise meant that I should be
committed there for a longer time.
But actually, you don't owe yourworkplace anything in, in that way.
And actually, you know, it'sright to seek new opportunities.
And I think I've stayed in, not that role,but I've stayed in other roles for too
long because I felt like I owed something.
Julie (22:45):
And actually that's just doing a good job.
Annie (22:47):
Yeah.
Julie (22:47):
Is enough, isn't it?
Annie (22:48):
Yeah.
Julie (22:48):
That's what you owe them.
Annie (22:50):
Yeah.
Julie (22:50):
And that's what you get all the time.
Annie (22:52):
And people staying places too long is not good for the person, but
it's also not good for the organization.
Julie (22:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Annie (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Julie (23:00):
I was thinking about how.
Learning is such a theme for you.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
And I've, I've seen yourcommitment to learning.
Yeah.
And I remember you did want toput together a comms and marketing
Annie (23:14):
Yeah.
Julie (23:15):
Plan during the coaching time and, and you put a lot of effort
into training around that area.
Annie (23:23):
Yeah.
I. I'm super passionate about learningand I, if I do coaching, I always like
to do my homework and learn and makesure I come back to the next session so
I can say, this is what I've learned.
Julie (23:32):
You were like my dream client.
I just would love it.
You know, we'd, we'd set you up on atask and you'd be so committed to it
and really enthusiastic about it.
I just felt like half the work was done.
That was brilliant.
Annie (23:44):
Yeah.
'cause
we used to say, whatnumber are you at now?
And where do you want tobe by the end of this?
And always felt like I'dshifted, but I think I. Yeah,
I reflect a lot on that now.
Now still that probably is.
I've always known I really loved learning,but I think because during our sessions
I really thought about what my valuesare and thought about how learning is
such a big one, and it's definitelysomething I'm thinking about as I kind
(24:06):
of think about what's my like futurecareer progression as well, because
there's the stats around how women willlook at a job description and think
they need to be qualified for all of it.
And men might look at, you know,think they can do half and they'll
apply anyway, and I think wetalked about that at the time.
I've definitely felt that, but actuallyI'm so passionate about learning
(24:27):
and so convinced that I will learnthings I need to learn in a role.
Actually I would, if I was fullyqualified to do a role, I'd
probably find it a bit boring.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
That's a big part of, big part of me.
I'm doing an, I dunno if I told you this,an ILM seven qualification in strategic
management and leadership currently, andI was looking at LinkedIn learning stuff.
I'm a bit obsessed.
Julie (24:46):
You're obsessed.
And I can really see how it feedsinto your career trajectory.
Annie (24:51):
Yeah.
Julie (24:51):
Because your career really has taken off exponentially in the last
few years and, and I think learning issuch, you know, the kind of keystone
Annie (25:02):
Yeah.
Julie (25:02):
Of that development, isn't it?
Annie (25:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
So my role at the moment is DeputyCEO, and I want to be a CEO.
And I've sort of seen, this has been aperiod of learning, all of that stuff.
I'm in an action learning set with otherCEOs, which has been like absolutely
amazing for that learning space.
And just hearing people reflecton what their challenges are.
And I feel like I've sort of had somereally good stuff about the role that I
(25:26):
wanna step into, but actually what it haskind of confirmed to me is that I don't
sit in that space thinking, oh, I feellike a deputy and I'm not, but actually
I feel like I'm on ground or we can havereally good conversations and that's
an amazing space for problem solving.
And so we, we have a WhatsApp group wherewe share stuff as we go and say, help,
I'm doing this, and... But we also meet,bring issues and then all ask each other
(25:47):
really good questions on that stuff.
But the other amazing thing that'scome out of that group is that,
sometimes someone will put a messagein there and just say, I'm having a
really bad day this thing's going on.
And I think someone once said, well,I'm about if you want to hop online
and have a coffee and a cry, but it'sbecome this thing now where someone
will post and be like, is anyone aroundfor a coffee and a cry this week?
So it is an amazing thing, Ithink in terms of, yeah, learning
(26:10):
from each other, but also justhaving your back in that space.
And I think that's areally important thing.
'cause you sometimes look a bit like howhe talked about how you see parenting.
I think you look at the people wholead organizations and think they have
it all together and then I think thehigher you go up in in leadership,
the more you're like, oh wow, everyoneis still just a human in this space.
Learning what they're doing, havingdays where they're just having
(26:32):
a really bad day and actuallybeing able to like be around them.
I guess it's part of buildingthat resilience and having
those, those people there.
Julie (26:39):
But that comes back to what we talked.
A, you know, a few moments ago aboutthe importance of community, doesn't it?
Yeah.
And action learning setsare fantastic for that.
I've run a lot of those in councilsand in kind of big corporates, and then
bringing business owners together as well.
And they're, they're reallypowerful spaces where.
(27:01):
If they're done well, then you can,you can be vulnerable and you can share
the difficult stuff and you can supporteach other and challenge each other.
I think they're enormously helpful.
Annie (27:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julie (27:13):
And I have something similar with a couple of other coaches who
I met on my Henley business schoolcourse years and years ago, and we get
together every six weeks and we alternatebetween, um, talking about our team
coaching work, and then we do a bit ofkind of life coaching for one another.
(27:33):
And you know, we, we quite oftenmessage each other and say, you know,
very similar to coffee and the cry.
It's like, help, I just, I'm having a,a moment of doubt or I just need a bit
of like, input and it's, it just feelslike somebody's just got their arm.
Annie (27:48):
Yeah.
Julie (27:49):
Behind you, propping you up, which I think is fantastic.
I'm trying to think aboutwhat else we talked about.
I think there was definitely somethingabout you growing in confidence in
your own decision making and I, Icould, I saw really palpable shift
over the coaching sessions as youbecame more, you know, your own woman
(28:10):
in, in terms of decision making.
Annie (28:12):
Yeah.
And I think we talked about that,about me feeling like what I
should do and struggling to makedecisions within that space.
And I think my challenge in that,which I, definitely can be my,
like I fall into that space ismy desire to get things right.
So I think I found it was finding itreally difficult to make a decision
(28:32):
if I wasn't a hundred percent surethat I was doing the right thing.
Yeah, and that's definitelysomething I think on now.
I think, I think more, the more that I'vereflected on that and the more that I've
gone into jobs where I've just been alot busier, if you don't make decisions,
it's impossible to get anything doneand I've got so much to get done now.
That actually I do have to makesome decisions a bit a bit quicker.
But I think the amazing thing now,the shift for me is that I can think
(28:55):
about how I equip the rest of myteam to ask them what decision they
might make on something as well.
A lot of my confidence definitelygrew in some of that I think when
we like looked at my achievementsand my love for learning and
all of that, that sort of stuff.
And I think, um, I probably gainedmore confidence in making decisions
and thinking, I do know a lot ofstuff, but also if I make a decision
(29:16):
and then we have to change and dosomething else, then that's also fine.
Yeah, and I think the thinkingabout worrying about doing
what was right, some of that islike, it's right, in whose eyes?
Julie (29:27):
I, I often come back to the phrase, the tyranny of the should.
Annie (29:31):
Yeah.
Julie (29:32):
And when I first heard that, that blew my mind.
Yeah.
Because I think I kind of grew upalways wanting to do things right.
And I had slightly perfectionisttendencies and they still come up
a little bit, but not so much now.
But when I heard thatphrase, I was like, wow.
Like the, the shoulds,those senses of obligation
Annie (29:51):
Yeah.
Julie (29:51):
Can really rule you.
But like you say, you knowwho's saying that that's how
you should Yeah, do something.
Annie (29:58):
Yeah.
And I think the more.
I and I, probably a lot of that startedthen, but the more I sort of uncovered
where lots of those should come fromand lots of them are from me, but a lot
of that is because of what I've learnedthat I think the world sees awoman as or
Julie (30:14):
Yeah.
Annie (30:14):
Or lots of different things and I think when you start to unpick it and
think that, I think, well, I don't wantany should that comes from a framework
that sees men as more important, forexample, or, I thought about that a lot
in terms of like parenting my kids andthinking about what, what decisions am
I making based on those shoulds thatactually I would be saying to them, don't
like no one tells you you should do that.
That's been a real challenge for meof like thinking about my, kind of
(30:37):
the decisions I make and wanting toreally like live the life of integrity.
I can't, yeah.
I feel like I have to be thinkingabout that for myself if I'm gonna
be teaching younger people on it.
I think the other thing, I think, becausewhen we did coaching, I felt like I
was at the point in my life and careerwhere I was like really starting to
(30:57):
figure out who I was and was like, okay,that this is who I am and I'm gonna now
pursue my career that fits in with that.
And I think probably at that point,maybe it's 'cause of the impact and
it was the, understanding my loveof learning and understanding how
much I want to have an impact mademe realize how much I love change.
Because, and I dunno where thequote was from, but there was a
(31:18):
quote about like the without, oh no,I'm not gonna remember it at all.
Right.
But something about like, youcan't grow unless you change.
So you, if you don't embrace change,you're never gonna grow and learn.
And so I think I was like, well,I'm gonna have to love change, but I
think change does make me tick, butactually to be able to like really
know that those are a big part of me.
(31:40):
And I've been in some work situationswhere I think people have, where
we've had to do quite a lot of changeand it's been quite challenging.
But ultimately, wherever I work, I'mgonna want to make sure that we're
growing and learning as much as we can,and, that's gonna have to have change.
So, yeah.
So I've gone to think a lot about kind ofchange management and how do you do that.
Julie (31:59):
Yeah.
And we've done a whole pieceof work on that, which is maybe
the topic of another Yeah.
Yeah.
Conversation.
But I, I think one thing thatstrikes me is that you are
a brilliant problem solver.
Annie (32:11):
Mm.
Julie (32:11):
You love a problem.
Annie (32:12):
Yeah.
Julie (32:12):
To unpick.
You're also really committed to honesty.
Annie (32:17):
Yeah.
Julie (32:17):
And we had a moment actually after, um, I've been doing a piece
of work with you in and your team.
And I had mistakenly said somethingthat attributed responsibility
to somebody else in the team.
And actually you had come up to me fairlysoon after the event and mentioned that it
(32:39):
was not correct what I had said and that,you know, you just wanted to kind of,
Annie (32:43):
mm-hmm.
Julie (32:45):
Get that, you know, straighten that out with me.
And, uh, and so I was kind of watchingthat ability to have conflict in action.
Yeah.
And that was really interesting.
And I, I mean, obviously nobody likesto be told that something they've
said is, is wrong, but obviously, youknow, I take that on the chin and, I
really valued the fact that I just knewexactly where you stood and we talked
(33:09):
about it on the phone that evening.
Annie (33:11):
Yeah.
Julie (33:12):
And, and fixed it.
And then I felt okay.
Right.
That's done now.
Annie (33:16):
Yeah, it was, I felt like we committed to be honest
with each other early on.
It's really interesting because.
I definitely didn't used to, like,conflict, I was not very good about
talking about my emotions or kind of beinghonest about how I felt and stuff, and
I think a lot of that's to do with how Iwas raised and conversations growing up.
I think it's all tied again into, yeah,love of problem solving, but my love of
(33:39):
learning and growing because unless youare honest about those things, I don't see
how you can move on and solve a problem.
I think I've grown to, like, notlike conflict, well, I kind of do.
I I like it 'cause it's for a purpose.
Julie (33:56):
Mm-hmm.
Annie (33:56):
But I think people can still find that quite difficult.
I recently did, uh, theLuminous Spark profile
Julie (34:01):
I was just, I was thinking about your Myers Briggs profile
Annie (34:04):
Oh, yeah.
Julie (34:05):
Actually as well.
And how that, that fits with perhapsmore ability to, to have conflict.
Annie (34:12):
Yeah.
Julie (34:12):
For the benefit of problem solving.
Annie (34:13):
Yeah.
I think it's interesting 'cause Ithink it's one of those things I've
probably had the ability to do.
But I perhaps haven't like used, but Ithink that something in, in the Lumina
Spark profile talked about how somepeople might see me as someone who
seeks out conflict, and I discussedwith someone about, you know, is that
something I need to think about changing?
I was like, actually, no, I just needto be really clear about why I might be
seeking out conflict or if I have lots ofpeople come into my office and talk about
(34:37):
something that's going on, actually, I'dmuch rather just say, let's all get in
one room and talk about this and resolveit, because I don't want to be sitting in
between and like partly because it's justreally ineffective in terms of our time.
Julie (34:48):
It's an enormous waste of time.
Annie (34:49):
Yeah.
But also because actually if youcan get in a space and talk about it
now, that's gonna help you to learnto, to do that more and it'll help
us to move on as an organization.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting you saidabout like the Myers Briggs profile and
my ability to do conflict, and I think.
Again, I probably started thinking aboutthis when we were co having coaching.
I think I, and I feel like I'm stillon a bit of a journey, but as a leader,
(35:12):
and whenever I do a personality profile,often I feel like I've got like two
sides to me, which is that like loveof community and my compassion and care
for people, but actually also I'm reallypurposeful and driven and I think it's
taken me quite a long time and a lot ofthat has been what people have, people
have given me feedback, and I think someof it is around how they think a woman
in leadership should be, to actually seethat those two sides of me are amazing
(35:36):
things together and I can be reallylogical and analytical, but I can also be
really kind and compassionate and it canfeel quite hard personally sometimes to
figure out how to put those two together.
But that's all just differentskills and tools I can learn.
But actually that's now somethingI would celebrate about myself.
But it's taken quite a longtime to understand that.
And also now I sit in a placewhere I think sometimes people
(35:56):
are not gonna like that.
That's my style.
But actually, who cares?
Julie (36:00):
Who cares?
Annie (36:01):
Yeah.
And I'm not giving power to
Julie (36:03):
Yeah.
Annie (36:03):
To that.
Yeah.
Julie (36:04):
Yeah.
I mean, those are, those are really,it's a really powerful combination.
Annie (36:08):
Yeah.
Julie (36:08):
Of personality traits, isn't it?
Annie (36:10):
Yeah.
Julie (36:11):
Yeah, it obviously is working for you.
Okay, so at this point mm-hmm.
I am gonna get you topick a question out of
Annie (36:23):
Excellent.
Julie (36:24):
The hat.
So,
if you'd like to read it out.
Annie (36:30):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Can you think of a metaphor todescribe the before and after of
the coaching experience itself?
I think.
If you imagine like a kind of gray,cloudy sky, but the sun is like
peeking through the clouds behind.
So I think the, that's the pre, that'sthe before the coaching experience.
(36:52):
The, and then the coaching is the,like the process of those clouds
gradually moving out of the way andactually being able to see the sun.
Because I think what is amazingabout coaching is that you.
The, the whole purpose is to draw outsomething that's already in yourself.
So it's like that sun that is actuallybehind the clouds, but without, but
(37:14):
the conversation enables you to dothat and to access something that
perhaps you weren't able to accesswithout the questions that unlock it.
Julie (37:21):
Yeah, I really like that.
Thank you.
So, so looking back at yourself,right back at the beginning of our
coaching work, if you had any words ofwisdom for somebody who's in a similar
situation, what, what might that be?
Annie (37:37):
Well, the same as you said earlier.
If you ever get the opportunityto have coaching, take it.
And I think coaching is a space for you.
So.
Just go and be completely,honestly, authentically you.
And if that, like, ifthat means crying cry.
If it, yeah, if it's, if it doesn't,you know, whatever the issue is, just
(37:57):
be honest about it and feel all thestuff that you need to feel about it.
The number of coaching sessions where I'velike cried or just really felt something,
but it's because I haven't allowed myselfto find any space, or I just think, how
am I actually feeling about this thing?
So I think seeing it as a space thatyou, almost like you're stepping
into where you've created a safespace to just properly feel and
(38:18):
process the stuff that you need to.
Yeah,
Julie (38:21):
I, I find it's really essential moments of reflection that
we don't make space for and we're,there's nothing in our education
system that encourages that either.
I mean, I was brought up going tochurch and, you know, it's not part
of my life really anymore, but itprobably, it did teach me something
(38:42):
about reflection and stopping andpausing and thinking about how I feel.
Annie (38:49):
Yeah.
Julie (38:49):
Or how I'm connected to something and I'm really
grateful that Yeah, I've got that.
Yeah.
Annie (38:55):
Yeah.
Julie (38:56):
So what's next for you?
Annie (39:00):
I'm thinking about what's next in terms of my role.
So I'm deputy CEO now.
Yeah.
And I wanna be a CEO.
It's been really interestingexperience, that whole thing of,
thinking I need to do everything I canto be fully qualified for that role.
But actually, yeah, I'm gonnaproperly start looking for kind of
what's next and what that looks like.
Yeah.
So I have just, I think just like inthe last couple of weeks, decided I'm
(39:22):
gonna start applying for CEO roles,but I, I'm at the point where I think
I'm ready to move on to the nextchallenge and to learn more stuff.
And it is that I, I'm, yeah, Ithink I will learn more somewhere
else and someone else can come intowhere I am and, and learn there.
But.
Yeah, that's definitelythe next thing for me.
Julie (39:41):
That's exciting.
Annie (39:42):
Mm-hmm.
Julie (39:42):
Yeah.
Okay.
Annie (39:43):
Mm-hmm.
Julie (39:44):
So thank you very much.
I've really enjoyed our conversation.
I find it fascinating hearing yourreflections, especially the piece
around that question that, um, wasgifted by my dad and then onto you.
So thank you for that.
And perhaps we'll get you tocome back and, and do a follow
up session at some future dates.
Annie (40:04):
Yeah, I'd love to.
Julie (40:05):
Okay.
Annie (40:06):
Thank you.
Julie (40:06):
Thank you very much.
As I listened back to my conversationwith Annie, I enjoyed hearing her
hopeful metaphor that she came tocoaching with a gray, cloudy sky and
the sun peeking through, and thatthe coaching process gradually moved
the clouds away to reveal the sun.
As she says, coaching draws out somethingwithin the self and the coaching lets you
(40:30):
access this and unlocks or unstick you.
Her views on coaching that it's apurposeful conversation and it gives
you tools to continue being purposefulafter the coaching work finishes.
I think that's important that coachesseek to provide a sustainable tool,
that equips their clients for thenext stage of their working life long
(40:53):
after the coaching work is complete.
So just to remind you of Annie'scoaching technique, which you might
like to try out, she regularlyasks herself these three questions.
What impact am I currently having?
What's missing?
And what does the nextthree months look like?
(41:15):
If you'd like to find out how wecould work together, you can visit
my website, www.lighting fires.co.uk.
Email me julie@lightingfires.co.ukor contact me on LinkedIn,
Julie Williams msc.
If you found this podcast helpful,please leave a five star rating
(41:38):
so others just like you can findme and benefit from these stories.
Thank you for listening tothe Lighting Fires podcast.
I'll be back soon with moreconversations with my wonderful clients
reflecting on their coaching journeys.
We came up with a tool that I have used since, which was my
three month impact review, whichsounds like a very formal way of
doing, but I like quite like reviews.
Um, so I've got a reminder that popsup in my phone every three months
and then I've got three questionswhich I ask myself, which are,
what impact am I currently having?
What's missing?
And then what's the nextthree months look like?
(00:25):
I think for me that's felt,that felt really important to.
Just be really purposeful becauseI think that's what I get out of
coaching is that like, this feelslike a really purposeful conversation.
How can I put tools in placethat's gonna help me to feel this
purposeful outside of here as well.
Julie (00:40):
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
My name is Julie Williams and I'm a coach.
I have a master's in coaching andbehavioral change over 10 years of
running my own coaching practiceand 15 years in marketing leadership
roles, including Accenture.
Where I've worked with Microsoft.
In my work, I gain the benefitof walking with people through
(01:02):
their lives for a short time.
So on this podcast, you'll getto hear from people experiencing
key moments of change in theirbusiness and personal lives.
We'll hear what lit theirfires and the techniques that
created significant shifts.
I hope you find their story inspiring.
(01:22):
In this interview, I meet with AnnieWilmott, deputy Chief Executive at Reading
Students Union and Director of MembershipEngagement here.. We explore a wide
range of topics and the idea of findingthe golden thread in your career and how
this can propel you forward with purpose.
We discuss how it's okay to beambitious and to negotiate the pay
(01:44):
that you deserve and the importanceof having honest conversations.
I hope you enjoy this episode andfind something useful to take away.
So welcome to the Lightsand Fires podcast.
Annie, would you liketo introduce yourself?
Annie (02:02):
Um, I'm Annie
Wilmott.
I am currently working forReading Students Union.
I'm Deputy CEO and Director ofMembership Engagement, which is
a bit of a mouthful as a title.
I am mum to two boys whoare incredibly energetic.
Um.
Married to Pete.
I spend a lot of my time reading ifI can, or outside with the boys who
(02:24):
are like puppies and need fresh air.
Yeah.
Julie (02:27):
Thank you.
So we started our coachingwork back in 2021.
Early, I think so, yeah.
21. Yeah.
So a while ago.
And we, and we met ata shared office space.
Annie (02:39):
Yeah.
Julie (02:39):
Didn't we?
Where we were both basedat the time in Reading.
So I wanted to start with asking you.
What brought you tocoaching in the first place?
Annie (02:49):
Yeah, so I, I've been a big fan of coaching for a long time.
When I finished university, I was doingsocial work and I went into a, a job where
I was coaching unemployed young people.
So I, I trained as a coachspecifically for that purpose of
helping young people back intoeducation, employment, or training.
And a lot of that about was,was about seeing the potential
(03:11):
in, in those young people and.
Facilitating groupsessions for some of that.
So I think that's probably where I firststarted to fall in love with coaching.
Then went through a bit of a phase of nothaving any coaching, occasionally tapping
into maybe podcasts or books and thinkingabout what kind of questions I asked.
Yeah, and then any opportunity I'vehad over the last couple of years to
(03:31):
get coaching, I've seized it and beingreally advocate for anyone who wants
to get coaching to say it's worth it.
Just the space to think andbe asked questions that.
Can help you really focuson what you're doing.
Yeah.
Not an opportunity topass up, I don't think.
Yeah.
Julie (03:45):
Oh, it's always hugely valuable.
I always think everybody should have Yeah.
Coaching.
Yeah.
Including myself.
So, um, do you wanna tell us a bit aboutyour, bit more about your backstory?
Annie (03:55):
Yeah.
Julie (03:56):
will you share.
Annie (03:57):
So it's always hard to know how far to go back in your backstory.
I went to uni originally to study law.
Partway through, the kind ofstart of that course, I thought,
this is not what I wanna do.
I remember speaking to a lot of people whoweren't enjoying it either, but they said,
oh, that's fine though, because I'm gonnaearn lots of money and have this sort of,
whoa, I can't do a job just for money.
That's not enough for me.
(04:18):
I need to find something fulfilling.
So I switched to social work, Iironically never became a social
worker, then worked as a coach, thenI worked for a church doing, um,
work with children and families.
I got married, had my first son, andthen was working, kind of building a
national network and website and thingsfor a charity that did kind of parenting
and faith stuff, um, with families.
(04:40):
Had another son and then fromthat went into, I. I think after
that I started writing a book.
So I'd been blogging about Parenthoodand Faith, which all started
after a conversation with anothermum friend who had her newborn.
So we both sat there with our tinybabies and I asked her how she was
doing, and she said, honestly, I'mnot enjoying it, but I don't feel like
(05:02):
I'm allowed to say that to anyone.
And for me it was justthis moment of like.
You, we should be allowed to say somethingis really hard, and that doesn't take
away from the fact that we know it'sa privilege or we love that thing.
So I started writing aboutthe messiness of parenthood.
So then I'd been doing that for a while.
Then this opportunity towrite a book on that came up.
So I wrote a book and at that point Istarted working as a funeral pastor.
(05:26):
Taking funeral services, so meetingfamilies and then taking 'em through that
service writing, reading a eulogy to helppeople say goodbye to their families.
Well, so that was an interesting periodin terms of doing those things together.
Out of that, worked for a localcharity called Connect Reading.
Which is when we met in that coworkingspace while still doing the funerals.
Alongside, aside, alongside that.
(05:46):
Yeah.
And then moved into working instudents unions, which is what I'm
doing now in a digital and comms role.
So I think, um, whenever I used tolook at this, I'd think it was kind
of windy road and I couldn't quitefigure out how it all matched up.
But I think through our coaching,actually it was when I started to
piece some of those things together.
'cause I've got a real passion forcommunity and connection and people being
(06:09):
able to just have honest conversationsand connect authentically with each other.
And actually that goes through allof the stuff I've done, whether it's
digital and comms, or for funerals.
Um, so it kinda makes sense to menow that my, my career path is in
a, in a place where inclusion andpeople, finding a place where they
belong is really, really important.
(06:29):
Yeah.
So it feels like it makes sensenow when I look back on Yeah, it's
brought me to where I am currently.
Julie (06:33):
It's definitely a golden thread, isn't it that's coming through there.
What's the title of your book?
Annie (06:38):
Cold Cups of Tea and Hiding in the Loo.
Which I haven't yet said thatto a parent who hasn't said,
oh yeah, that makes sense.
Julie (06:45):
Yeah, I remember that well, yeah, and And it's interesting, isn't it?
What you say about, you know, it isalright to be honest about things being
difficult, even when it is a privilege.
'cause it is a privilegeto be a parent with.
We are very fortunate.
And it is really challenging at times.
I remember my whole worldjust imploded when I had kids.
(07:08):
I'd had a jet setting global career andsuddenly I was pushing a pram, a kinda
half mile radius of my house and notseeing anybody very often and finding
going to baby groups and chatting aboutwhether other people's babies were
sleeping through the night yet, I mean,the conversation, the shift and things
(07:32):
I was talking about was unbelievable.
And it, it does kind of, it's a bitof a, a shock to the system, isn't it?
Annie (07:40):
Yeah, it is.
And then there are so many expectationson what parenthood should look
like, or you feel like there are,but unless we talk really honestly
about that stuff, you have no idea.
You just think that everyoneelse has it sorted and you don't
Julie (07:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everyone's this perfect parent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, um, what, what were you hopingto get out of our coaching work?
What were your aims?
Annie (08:04):
I think I was trying to figure out what was next and to
figure out what was making me feel.
Stuck, I guess.
So kind of some of thatlike getting unstuck.
A lot of it was that.
And thinking about the kind of thingsthat I felt that, yeah, maybe were
holding me back or just processing,what did I need to do to move on
to the next stage in my career?
(08:25):
I probably didn't realize thatat the beginning, but yeah, some
of that, what's, what's next?
What do I need to focus on?
Yeah.
Julie (08:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
So I remember one of the first thingswe did was talk about how much you'd
already achieved in your, your life andcareer so far, and you've put together
this awesome piece of artwork on Canva,which I found really inspirational.
(08:52):
It was, it was something creativelyreally kind of, I don't know.
Something really freshabout it and appealing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what, what was that likefor you putting that together?
Annie (09:04):
It was
really good.
And it's interesting that you talk aboutthe creativeness of it because I think
that's something we touched on and I oftentouched on it, those points in my life
where I feel a bit stuck in terms of work.
Sometimes I'll have neglected thecreative part of me a bit, so bringing
that in while I'm processing, definitely.
Helps me tap into something more about me.
I think it was a really good exercise.
We've just looked back at the picturenow and I think, um, I can remember even
(09:28):
just writing the word achievements on it.
And the word yay.
Um, I found it really hard to just evencelebrate stuff 'cause I think, um, I'm
always so keen to learn the next thing andto complete stuff and move on to the next
thing that I'm not very good at pausingto reflect and to when I'm good at pausing
to reflect, but I reflect to move on.
(09:49):
I don't reflect to stop and celebrate.
So it was a really good exercise andI think I found it more difficult
than you might imagine because, yeah.
'cause I find that thing, thosekind of things hard to do.
I think because my book launched rightat the beginning of the pandemic.
I didn't sell it in the waythat I might have expected going
out and doing talks about it.
I changed jobs rather than continuingto focus on that, I think I probably
(10:10):
didn't allow myself to like reallyrecognize what an achievement it is
to have written and published a book.
So it was good to stopand and write that down.
Yeah.
Actually, all the things that we wrotedown on that important to recognize all
the hard work that went into those things.
Julie (10:22):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And the, and the variation of allthe things that you've done as well.
I find the piece around the funeralreally fascinating, that ability to
be with people in a very vulnerable,difficult moment of their lives
and guide them through that.
That that's quite anunusual skill to have.
Annie (10:44):
Yeah, I've had, I've had people ask me like, how did you, emotionally,
how did you handle doing funerals?
And I think there is, it's, I'vealways felt there's something really
different about holding someone else'sgrief compared to if it was your own.
And I find that interesting.
Reflecting on recently andactually thinking about how
resilient I am as a person.
I'm sure a lot of thatdoes come from that.
(11:05):
It has been developed through thatperiod of taking funerals and being
able to hold all of that and hearreally, really sad stories repeatedly
and help people through that space.
Yeah, there's some amazing learningthere in terms of being able to
help someone with their emotion, butnot to take it all on you I think.
So I did a hun.. I think I did funeralsfor two years and I've done a few since
(11:25):
when families have asked me, but I did146 funerals in that time over two year
period, which when I added it up, when Iwas at the point of thinking, I think I
might be done with these and I added upthe number I thought, okay, no, it makes
sense that I might be done because asmuch as I was able to hold all of that and
be resilient through it, I had reached apoint probably mostly because of Covid,
I think, where I just thought actuallyemotionally I haven't got it in me right
(11:49):
now for this because, and it's probablypart of that I was holding other people's
grief, but actually we all had so muchof our own grief during Covid as well.
And it's almost likeit reached my capacity.
'cause I was.
One of the things I loved aboutfunerals was you'd go to someone's
house and you'd sit and have a cupof tea, and they'd tell you all the
stories about the person who died.
But when Covid came, suddenly youwere doing that on a phone, so you
(12:10):
couldn't make eye contact with someone.
So if they were crying on the phoneand you're saying to them, it's okay.
They can't, you can't really show thatto someone when they can't see your
face to show that you really mean it.
And then you'd get to a funeral.
I'd not have met the people,but you'd all be wearing masks.
So really hard just from someone'seyes to figure out who they might be.
And then you'd be delivering a eulogy,which I'd written and they'd read it
(12:32):
beforehand to, you know, to check itwas the right facts and everything, but
you're reading this incredibly emotionalpiece and hoping that it's connecting with
people, but you can't see their faces.
And yeah, I think I had one that was justparticularly hard to read out for that
reason, and I just had a moment, I thinkduring the funeral I thought, I don't
think I can keep doing this because.
What for me was important about funerals,was delivering that service in the best
(12:54):
way possible to help people say goodbye.
Well, and I thought, I don't, I can'ttell if I'm doing that at the moment.
So yeah, it felt like the right timeto stop and it was the right time in
terms of other things going on as well.
Julie (13:05):
But a hundred forty six, a hundred forty six, that's incredible.
Annie (13:09):
Yeah, that's, it's a lot, isn't it?
Julie (13:11):
Yeah,
it's definitely, yeah.
Okay, so let's talk a bitabout the coaching then.
Annie (13:17):
Yeah.
Julie (13:17):
So.
When you look back, were therekey moments of change or something
shifted or you had a realization?
Often we call those kind of criticalmoments in the coaching world and, and
could you tell us a bit about them?
Annie (13:34):
Yeah, I think there were lots of those.
I think the one we were talking about,my achievements was quite a big one,
probably because that's a practicethat I've put in since, so I haven't
done it in such a visual way, and Ithink I might go away from here and
do it a bit more creatively again.
But I've started trying to writedown the things that I've achieved
and celebrate all those things,and actually it's something I
try and do with my team as well.
(13:55):
So I think that was really impactful.
I think thinking about whatimpact I wanted to have.
I think I realized how having an impactto me is what's really important.
Whatever I do, I want to know that I am.
Yeah.
Having some kind of impact.
So we came up with a tool that I haveused since, which was my three month
impact review, which sounds like a veryformal way of doing it, but I like.
(14:19):
Quite like reviews.
Um, so, I've got a reminder that popsup in my phone every three months
and then I've got three questionswhich I ask myself, which are,
what impact am I currently having?
What's missing?
And then what's the nextthree months look like?
I think for me that's felt, thatfelt really important to just be
really purposeful because I thinkthat's what I get out of coaching
is that like, this feels like areally purposeful conversation.
(14:40):
How can I put tools in place that's.
Gonna help me to feel thispurposeful outside of here as well.
Yeah.
Julie (14:45):
And that's then very sustainable, isn't it?
You're taking that coachingforward into your life.
Annie (14:50):
Yeah,
and then I was thinking, the otherone I think was when we were having
the coaching, I was thinking aboutwhat was next and then moved into the
place of having job interviews and weprepped for quite a few different ones.
And I think there are a fewmoments in that process that.
Were really impactful for me, I thinkthrough all the conversations we had,
I got to a place where I thought, I'mgonna go and interview into an interview.
(15:12):
I'm gonna present myself.
And we talked through a lot about what,what do I want 'em to know about me?
And I was doing interviewsand thinking, actually do you
know what I've presented me?
And if they don't wantme, then that's fine.
That's not the space, which felt likea really different way to approach it.
But in the interview for the place I'mnow working can remember we prepped for
that and I was thinking a lot about whatthat role would look like if I got it.
(15:32):
And it would be one steppinginto a senior leadership team.
And I'm thinking if I go there,I'm going to be a senior leader.
So when I go to the interview, I'm goinginto that interview as a senior leader.
But I remember we talked about, um,what interview questions I might do.
And I think you shared onethat your dad had given you.
Julie (15:47):
Oh yeah.
Annie (15:47):
Was to ask them at the end of the interview, what would you see the
first six months of my work being, orwhat's the first project I'd work on?
Julie (15:53):
Yeah.
Annie (15:53):
And I asked that in the interview and there was something about that for me.
Imagine like imagining myself inthat job, but about positioning
it to them to get them thinkingabout what that would look like.
Julie (16:03):
Yeah.
Annie (16:03):
And I think I would use that in any interview again, since that was really,
Julie (16:07):
yeah.
Good.
That's really interestingyou should bring that up.
I remember that moment really well.
Because my dad had only just passedaway a few weeks before that into, in
fact, I've got a feeling that ours mighthave been the first coaching session,
Annie (16:23):
I think it might have been,
Julie (16:24):
I had done since he had died.
I'd taken a, a month off work,uh, after a really difficult time.
And, um, I've been holdingmyself together really well.
And then this came up and I thought.
I'm gonna reflect on some of the thingsthat my, my dad had shared with me
because he had been, um, director ofHR at Blackwell's Publishing Company
(16:48):
and booksellers, and, and he hadactually gone on to become a coach.
So, you know, it was just a bit oddthat we'd ended up doing similar things.
But as I talked to you aboutthat question, it just brought
so much emotion back for me, andI really, I had to do everything
I could to button all that down.
Annie (17:09):
Yeah.
Julie (17:09):
And compartmentalize, because I knew it wouldn't serve either you or me
Annie (17:14):
Yeah.
Julie (17:14):
In that moment.
But I, I did nearly lose at that point.
And actually it's coming up tothe third anniversary of his
death, um, in two weeks time.
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Yeah.
I don't think we've ever really talked.
Annie (17:27):
No, I don't think we have.
No.
And I've thought about thata lot since because it felt,
it felt really special to me.
I think we didn't talk about themoment, but I was aware how much
you were probably holding in.
I think it felt really specialto me that you were willing to
give me something that was his.
Oh, I feel a bit emotional now.
Yeah.
And I've thought about that a lot since.
But I think that is one of theamazing things about coaching.
'cause even when you're not saying,this is a thing I learned from this
(17:50):
person so much, much of coachingis you reflecting on what you've
learned in your life from people andpassing that on to others, isn't it?
Julie (17:56):
Oh yeah,
Annie (17:57):
absolutely.
Julie (17:58):
And as coaches, you know, we are taught to.
Not give advice.
Yeah.
And not to pass on, but in my experience.
It is, it is the personal stories,either of myself as a coach, but in
my previous life of my career, youknow, in, in the corporate world or
other clients, anonymized storiesthat are so helpful for people.
(18:22):
So,
Annie (18:23):
yeah.
Julie (18:24):
Yeah, that did feel like a little gift to actually,
Annie (18:26):
yeah,
Julie (18:27):
A gift from my dad, and a gift to you too.
Annie (18:29):
Yeah.
Julie (18:29):
Yeah.
And it is a great question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So just thinking, I just, just torepeat the question, it's : in an
interview situation, asking peoplewhat they would like you to deliver
in the first kind of three to sixmonths is, is really powerful.
'cause it demonstrates that you arealready seeing yourself doing the role.
Annie (18:48):
Yeah.
Julie (18:48):
And you're gonna be really useful really quickly.
Annie (18:52):
Yeah.
Julie (18:52):
Yeah.
Thank you.
That one that was expected.
Are you feeling stuck and needsome help moving forwards?
At lighting fires, I work with businessleaders, future leaders, and their teams
to ignite their full leadership potential.
(19:12):
Whether you're a business owneror leading in an organization,
we can work together to create aprogram tailored to your priorities.
Throughout our coaching together, I seemy clients' confidence and capabilities
grow as they gain a greater understandingof how they work, learn to make quicker
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(19:35):
Through the challenges, and thebreakthroughs, you'll have me by your
side . Get in touch on LinkedIn oremail me julie@lightingfires.co uk.
So any other moments things shiftedfor you or something changed?
Annie (20:00):
I think there were lots.
Of others too.
I think the other one we talked aboutwas because we were, I was going through
a bit of a negotiation on my pay at thetime that we first spoke, and looking
back, I've been in quite a lot of placeswhere, I think we talked about this
at the time, like I've not really beenpaid for the level of work I was doing.
I've worked in places where my husband andI both worked somewhere at the same time.
(20:22):
We were working at the same level,and we both got promoted, but they
created another level so they couldput us lower down the pay scale.
Rather than paying us for the role wewere doing, which now I look back on and
I would, well, I did go and challengeit, but would challenge it much harder
probably by not working there anymore.
But it's all learning.
Um, so yeah.
And I think I, I thinkwe talked a lot about.
(20:42):
That having worked in places where theassumption is that you do that thing
for a charity perhaps because youknow it's, it's a calling and you know
you're not doing this for the money.
And actually someone else tellingme that I'm not doing something
for the money is not okay.
But also I think that I'veexperienced some sexism within that.
And I think in terms of peopleviewing that women shouldn't be
ambitious, I was quite aware of that.
(21:04):
This would've been asimilar time actually.
Yeah.
During Covid and, and that periodwhere some of the friends I had at
that point I was talking about likeworking whilst having the kids at
home and they were like, but youcan't work full-time and be a mum.
That's when I was looking at thatjob, this job, which is full-time.
'cause I made a switch to doing full-time,although before I was doing three jobs
and effectively still working full-time.
But yeah, so I think it was.
(21:25):
I found myself reflecting on all thosedifferent things, the places I've
worked in, where I've perhaps notfelt valued by the amount I was paid.
The feeling criticized for wantingto be ambitious and to work, and I
think that's something that reallyshifted for me in terms of thinking
actually it is okay to be ambitious.
It's also okay to want to beable to afford a house, you know?
And I'm not ashamed of the fact that I'mnow trying to earn more money so that one
(21:47):
day we get to buy a house and yeah, thatfelt quite a big kind of shift for me.
Actually, and also in terms of, youknow, if someone else says something
else, then that that's on them.
Like they don't get toput that on me, I think.
Julie (21:58):
And you, you got the salary that you wanted.
Annie (22:02):
Yeah.
Julie (22:02):
Which was fantastic.
Annie (22:03):
Yeah,
it was.
Julie (22:04):
Yeah.
Annie (22:05):
Yeah.
And I think something I reflected onin that, and I've had conversations
recently with people about stufflike this, is that I got the salary
I wanted and that was great, but itwas also okay to still then think that
perhaps I'm ready for the next thing.
And I think sometimes again, posswell, this might happen in any role.
I think it's easy for us to think.
It, but perhaps I've experienced it quitea bit in the charity sector of feeling
(22:26):
like you're obliged to stay somewhere.
And the fact they gave me apay rise meant that I should be
committed there for a longer time.
But actually, you don't owe yourworkplace anything in, in that way.
And actually, you know, it'sright to seek new opportunities.
And I think I've stayed in, not that role,but I've stayed in other roles for too
long because I felt like I owed something.
Julie (22:45):
And actually that's just doing a good job.
Annie (22:47):
Yeah.
Julie (22:47):
Is enough, isn't it?
Annie (22:48):
Yeah.
Julie (22:48):
That's what you owe them.
Annie (22:50):
Yeah.
Julie (22:50):
And that's what you get all the time.
Annie (22:52):
And people staying places too long is not good for the person, but
it's also not good for the organization.
Julie (22:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Annie (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Julie (23:00):
I was thinking about how.
Learning is such a theme for you.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
And I've, I've seen yourcommitment to learning.
Yeah.
And I remember you did want toput together a comms and marketing
Annie (23:14):
Yeah.
Julie (23:15):
Plan during the coaching time and, and you put a lot of effort
into training around that area.
Annie (23:23):
Yeah.
I. I'm super passionate about learningand I, if I do coaching, I always like
to do my homework and learn and makesure I come back to the next session so
I can say, this is what I've learned.
Julie (23:32):
You were like my dream client.
I just would love it.
You know, we'd, we'd set you up on atask and you'd be so committed to it
and really enthusiastic about it.
I just felt like half the work was done.
That was brilliant.
Annie (23:44):
Yeah.
'cause
we used to say, whatnumber are you at now?
And where do you want tobe by the end of this?
And always felt like I'dshifted, but I think I. Yeah,
I reflect a lot on that now.
Now still that probably is.
I've always known I really loved learning,but I think because during our sessions
I really thought about what my valuesare and thought about how learning is
such a big one, and it's definitelysomething I'm thinking about as I kind
(24:06):
of think about what's my like futurecareer progression as well, because
there's the stats around how women willlook at a job description and think
they need to be qualified for all of it.
And men might look at, you know,think they can do half and they'll
apply anyway, and I think wetalked about that at the time.
I've definitely felt that, but actuallyI'm so passionate about learning
(24:27):
and so convinced that I will learnthings I need to learn in a role.
Actually I would, if I was fullyqualified to do a role, I'd
probably find it a bit boring.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
That's a big part of, big part of me.
I'm doing an, I dunno if I told you this,an ILM seven qualification in strategic
management and leadership currently, andI was looking at LinkedIn learning stuff.
I'm a bit obsessed.
Julie (24:46):
You're obsessed.
And I can really see how it feedsinto your career trajectory.
Annie (24:51):
Yeah.
Julie (24:51):
Because your career really has taken off exponentially in the last
few years and, and I think learning issuch, you know, the kind of keystone
Annie (25:02):
Yeah.
Julie (25:02):
Of that development, isn't it?
Annie (25:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
So my role at the moment is DeputyCEO, and I want to be a CEO.
And I've sort of seen, this has been aperiod of learning, all of that stuff.
I'm in an action learning set with otherCEOs, which has been like absolutely
amazing for that learning space.
And just hearing people reflecton what their challenges are.
And I feel like I've sort of had somereally good stuff about the role that I
(25:26):
wanna step into, but actually what it haskind of confirmed to me is that I don't
sit in that space thinking, oh, I feellike a deputy and I'm not, but actually
I feel like I'm on ground or we can havereally good conversations and that's
an amazing space for problem solving.
And so we, we have a WhatsApp group wherewe share stuff as we go and say, help,
I'm doing this, and... But we also meet,bring issues and then all ask each other
(25:47):
really good questions on that stuff.
But the other amazing thing that'scome out of that group is that,
sometimes someone will put a messagein there and just say, I'm having a
really bad day this thing's going on.
And I think someone once said, well,I'm about if you want to hop online
and have a coffee and a cry, but it'sbecome this thing now where someone
will post and be like, is anyone aroundfor a coffee and a cry this week?
So it is an amazing thing, Ithink in terms of, yeah, learning
(26:10):
from each other, but also justhaving your back in that space.
And I think that's areally important thing.
'cause you sometimes look a bit like howhe talked about how you see parenting.
I think you look at the people wholead organizations and think they have
it all together and then I think thehigher you go up in in leadership,
the more you're like, oh wow, everyoneis still just a human in this space.
Learning what they're doing, havingdays where they're just having
(26:32):
a really bad day and actuallybeing able to like be around them.
I guess it's part of buildingthat resilience and having
those, those people there.
Julie (26:39):
But that comes back to what we talked.
A, you know, a few moments ago aboutthe importance of community, doesn't it?
Yeah.
And action learning setsare fantastic for that.
I've run a lot of those in councilsand in kind of big corporates, and then
bringing business owners together as well.
And they're, they're reallypowerful spaces where.
(27:01):
If they're done well, then you can,you can be vulnerable and you can share
the difficult stuff and you can supporteach other and challenge each other.
I think they're enormously helpful.
Annie (27:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julie (27:13):
And I have something similar with a couple of other coaches who
I met on my Henley business schoolcourse years and years ago, and we get
together every six weeks and we alternatebetween, um, talking about our team
coaching work, and then we do a bit ofkind of life coaching for one another.
(27:33):
And you know, we, we quite oftenmessage each other and say, you know,
very similar to coffee and the cry.
It's like, help, I just, I'm having a,a moment of doubt or I just need a bit
of like, input and it's, it just feelslike somebody's just got their arm.
Annie (27:48):
Yeah.
Julie (27:49):
Behind you, propping you up, which I think is fantastic.
I'm trying to think aboutwhat else we talked about.
I think there was definitely somethingabout you growing in confidence in
your own decision making and I, Icould, I saw really palpable shift
over the coaching sessions as youbecame more, you know, your own woman
(28:10):
in, in terms of decision making.
Annie (28:12):
Yeah.
And I think we talked about that,about me feeling like what I
should do and struggling to makedecisions within that space.
And I think my challenge in that,which I, definitely can be my,
like I fall into that space ismy desire to get things right.
So I think I found it was finding itreally difficult to make a decision
(28:32):
if I wasn't a hundred percent surethat I was doing the right thing.
Yeah, and that's definitelysomething I think on now.
I think, I think more, the more that I'vereflected on that and the more that I've
gone into jobs where I've just been alot busier, if you don't make decisions,
it's impossible to get anything doneand I've got so much to get done now.
That actually I do have to makesome decisions a bit a bit quicker.
But I think the amazing thing now,the shift for me is that I can think
(28:55):
about how I equip the rest of myteam to ask them what decision they
might make on something as well.
A lot of my confidence definitelygrew in some of that I think when
we like looked at my achievementsand my love for learning and
all of that, that sort of stuff.
And I think, um, I probably gainedmore confidence in making decisions
and thinking, I do know a lot ofstuff, but also if I make a decision
(29:16):
and then we have to change and dosomething else, then that's also fine.
Yeah, and I think the thinkingabout worrying about doing
what was right, some of that islike, it's right, in whose eyes?
Julie (29:27):
I, I often come back to the phrase, the tyranny of the should.
Annie (29:31):
Yeah.
Julie (29:32):
And when I first heard that, that blew my mind.
Yeah.
Because I think I kind of grew upalways wanting to do things right.
And I had slightly perfectionisttendencies and they still come up
a little bit, but not so much now.
But when I heard thatphrase, I was like, wow.
Like the, the shoulds,those senses of obligation
Annie (29:51):
Yeah.
Julie (29:51):
Can really rule you.
But like you say, you knowwho's saying that that's how
you should Yeah, do something.
Annie (29:58):
Yeah.
And I think the more.
I and I, probably a lot of that startedthen, but the more I sort of uncovered
where lots of those should come fromand lots of them are from me, but a lot
of that is because of what I've learnedthat I think the world sees awoman as or
Julie (30:14):
Yeah.
Annie (30:14):
Or lots of different things and I think when you start to unpick it and
think that, I think, well, I don't wantany should that comes from a framework
that sees men as more important, forexample, or, I thought about that a lot
in terms of like parenting my kids andthinking about what, what decisions am
I making based on those shoulds thatactually I would be saying to them, don't
like no one tells you you should do that.
That's been a real challenge for meof like thinking about my, kind of
(30:37):
the decisions I make and wanting toreally like live the life of integrity.
I can't, yeah.
I feel like I have to be thinkingabout that for myself if I'm gonna
be teaching younger people on it.
I think the other thing, I think, becausewhen we did coaching, I felt like I
was at the point in my life and careerwhere I was like really starting to
(30:57):
figure out who I was and was like, okay,that this is who I am and I'm gonna now
pursue my career that fits in with that.
And I think probably at that point,maybe it's 'cause of the impact and
it was the, understanding my loveof learning and understanding how
much I want to have an impact mademe realize how much I love change.
Because, and I dunno where thequote was from, but there was a
(31:18):
quote about like the without, oh no,I'm not gonna remember it at all.
Right.
But something about like, youcan't grow unless you change.
So you, if you don't embrace change,you're never gonna grow and learn.
And so I think I was like, well,I'm gonna have to love change, but I
think change does make me tick, butactually to be able to like really
know that those are a big part of me.
(31:40):
And I've been in some work situationswhere I think people have, where
we've had to do quite a lot of changeand it's been quite challenging.
But ultimately, wherever I work, I'mgonna want to make sure that we're
growing and learning as much as we can,and, that's gonna have to have change.
So, yeah.
So I've gone to think a lot about kind ofchange management and how do you do that.
Julie (31:59):
Yeah.
And we've done a whole pieceof work on that, which is maybe
the topic of another Yeah.
Yeah.
Conversation.
But I, I think one thing thatstrikes me is that you are
a brilliant problem solver.
Annie (32:11):
Mm.
Julie (32:11):
You love a problem.
Annie (32:12):
Yeah.
Julie (32:12):
To unpick.
You're also really committed to honesty.
Annie (32:17):
Yeah.
Julie (32:17):
And we had a moment actually after, um, I've been doing a piece
of work with you in and your team.
And I had mistakenly said somethingthat attributed responsibility
to somebody else in the team.
And actually you had come up to me fairlysoon after the event and mentioned that it
(32:39):
was not correct what I had said and that,you know, you just wanted to kind of,
Annie (32:43):
mm-hmm.
Julie (32:45):
Get that, you know, straighten that out with me.
And, uh, and so I was kind of watchingthat ability to have conflict in action.
Yeah.
And that was really interesting.
And I, I mean, obviously nobody likesto be told that something they've
said is, is wrong, but obviously, youknow, I take that on the chin and, I
really valued the fact that I just knewexactly where you stood and we talked
(33:09):
about it on the phone that evening.
Annie (33:11):
Yeah.
Julie (33:12):
And, and fixed it.
And then I felt okay.
Right.
That's done now.
Annie (33:16):
Yeah, it was, I felt like we committed to be honest
with each other early on.
It's really interesting because.
I definitely didn't used to, like,conflict, I was not very good about
talking about my emotions or kind of beinghonest about how I felt and stuff, and
I think a lot of that's to do with how Iwas raised and conversations growing up.
I think it's all tied again into, yeah,love of problem solving, but my love of
(33:39):
learning and growing because unless youare honest about those things, I don't see
how you can move on and solve a problem.
I think I've grown to, like, notlike conflict, well, I kind of do.
I I like it 'cause it's for a purpose.
Julie (33:56):
Mm-hmm.
Annie (33:56):
But I think people can still find that quite difficult.
I recently did, uh, theLuminous Spark profile
Julie (34:01):
I was just, I was thinking about your Myers Briggs profile
Annie (34:04):
Oh, yeah.
Julie (34:05):
Actually as well.
And how that, that fits with perhapsmore ability to, to have conflict.
Annie (34:12):
Yeah.
Julie (34:12):
For the benefit of problem solving.
Annie (34:13):
Yeah.
I think it's interesting 'cause Ithink it's one of those things I've
probably had the ability to do.
But I perhaps haven't like used, but Ithink that something in, in the Lumina
Spark profile talked about how somepeople might see me as someone who
seeks out conflict, and I discussedwith someone about, you know, is that
something I need to think about changing?
I was like, actually, no, I just needto be really clear about why I might be
seeking out conflict or if I have lots ofpeople come into my office and talk about
(34:37):
something that's going on, actually, I'dmuch rather just say, let's all get in
one room and talk about this and resolveit, because I don't want to be sitting in
between and like partly because it's justreally ineffective in terms of our time.
Julie (34:48):
It's an enormous waste of time.
Annie (34:49):
Yeah.
But also because actually if youcan get in a space and talk about it
now, that's gonna help you to learnto, to do that more and it'll help
us to move on as an organization.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting you saidabout like the Myers Briggs profile and
my ability to do conflict, and I think.
Again, I probably started thinking aboutthis when we were co having coaching.
I think I, and I feel like I'm stillon a bit of a journey, but as a leader,
(35:12):
and whenever I do a personality profile,often I feel like I've got like two
sides to me, which is that like loveof community and my compassion and care
for people, but actually also I'm reallypurposeful and driven and I think it's
taken me quite a long time and a lot ofthat has been what people have, people
have given me feedback, and I think someof it is around how they think a woman
in leadership should be, to actually seethat those two sides of me are amazing
(35:36):
things together and I can be reallylogical and analytical, but I can also be
really kind and compassionate and it canfeel quite hard personally sometimes to
figure out how to put those two together.
But that's all just differentskills and tools I can learn.
But actually that's now somethingI would celebrate about myself.
But it's taken quite a longtime to understand that.
And also now I sit in a placewhere I think sometimes people
(35:56):
are not gonna like that.
That's my style.
But actually, who cares?
Julie (36:00):
Who cares?
Annie (36:01):
Yeah.
And I'm not giving power to
Julie (36:03):
Yeah.
Annie (36:03):
To that.
Yeah.
Julie (36:04):
Yeah.
I mean, those are, those are really,it's a really powerful combination.
Annie (36:08):
Yeah.
Julie (36:08):
Of personality traits, isn't it?
Annie (36:10):
Yeah.
Julie (36:11):
Yeah, it obviously is working for you.
Okay, so at this point mm-hmm.
I am gonna get you topick a question out of
Annie (36:23):
Excellent.
Julie (36:24):
The hat.
So,
if you'd like to read it out.
Annie (36:30):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Can you think of a metaphor todescribe the before and after of
the coaching experience itself?
I think.
If you imagine like a kind of gray,cloudy sky, but the sun is like
peeking through the clouds behind.
So I think the, that's the pre, that'sthe before the coaching experience.
(36:52):
The, and then the coaching is the,like the process of those clouds
gradually moving out of the way andactually being able to see the sun.
Because I think what is amazingabout coaching is that you.
The, the whole purpose is to draw outsomething that's already in yourself.
So it's like that sun that is actuallybehind the clouds, but without, but
(37:14):
the conversation enables you to dothat and to access something that
perhaps you weren't able to accesswithout the questions that unlock it.
Julie (37:21):
Yeah, I really like that.
Thank you.
So, so looking back at yourself,right back at the beginning of our
coaching work, if you had any words ofwisdom for somebody who's in a similar
situation, what, what might that be?
Annie (37:37):
Well, the same as you said earlier.
If you ever get the opportunityto have coaching, take it.
And I think coaching is a space for you.
So.
Just go and be completely,honestly, authentically you.
And if that, like, ifthat means crying cry.
If it, yeah, if it's, if it doesn't,you know, whatever the issue is, just
(37:57):
be honest about it and feel all thestuff that you need to feel about it.
The number of coaching sessions where I'velike cried or just really felt something,
but it's because I haven't allowed myselfto find any space, or I just think, how
am I actually feeling about this thing?
So I think seeing it as a space thatyou, almost like you're stepping
into where you've created a safespace to just properly feel and
(38:18):
process the stuff that you need to.
Yeah,
Julie (38:21):
I, I find it's really essential moments of reflection that
we don't make space for and we're,there's nothing in our education
system that encourages that either.
I mean, I was brought up going tochurch and, you know, it's not part
of my life really anymore, but itprobably, it did teach me something
(38:42):
about reflection and stopping andpausing and thinking about how I feel.
Annie (38:49):
Yeah.
Julie (38:49):
Or how I'm connected to something and I'm really
grateful that Yeah, I've got that.
Yeah.
Annie (38:55):
Yeah.
Julie (38:56):
So what's next for you?
Annie (39:00):
I'm thinking about what's next in terms of my role.
So I'm deputy CEO now.
Yeah.
And I wanna be a CEO.
It's been really interestingexperience, that whole thing of,
thinking I need to do everything I canto be fully qualified for that role.
But actually, yeah, I'm gonnaproperly start looking for kind of
what's next and what that looks like.
Yeah.
So I have just, I think just like inthe last couple of weeks, decided I'm
(39:22):
gonna start applying for CEO roles,but I, I'm at the point where I think
I'm ready to move on to the nextchallenge and to learn more stuff.
And it is that I, I'm, yeah, Ithink I will learn more somewhere
else and someone else can come intowhere I am and, and learn there.
But.
Yeah, that's definitelythe next thing for me.
Julie (39:41):
That's exciting.
Annie (39:42):
Mm-hmm.
Julie (39:42):
Yeah.
Okay.
Annie (39:43):
Mm-hmm.
Julie (39:44):
So thank you very much.
I've really enjoyed our conversation.
I find it fascinating hearing yourreflections, especially the piece
around that question that, um, wasgifted by my dad and then onto you.
So thank you for that.
And perhaps we'll get you tocome back and, and do a follow
up session at some future dates.
Annie (40:04):
Yeah, I'd love to.
Julie (40:05):
Okay.
Annie (40:06):
Thank you.
Julie (40:06):
Thank you very much.
As I listened back to my conversationwith Annie, I enjoyed hearing her
hopeful metaphor that she came tocoaching with a gray, cloudy sky and
the sun peeking through, and thatthe coaching process gradually moved
the clouds away to reveal the sun.
As she says, coaching draws out somethingwithin the self and the coaching lets you
(40:30):
access this and unlocks or unstick you.
Her views on coaching that it's apurposeful conversation and it gives
you tools to continue being purposefulafter the coaching work finishes.
I think that's important that coachesseek to provide a sustainable tool,
that equips their clients for thenext stage of their working life long
(40:53):
after the coaching work is complete.
So just to remind you of Annie'scoaching technique, which you might
like to try out, she regularlyasks herself these three questions.
What impact am I currently having?
What's missing?
And what does the nextthree months look like?
(41:15):
If you'd like to find out how wecould work together, you can visit
my website, www.lighting fires.co.uk.
Email me julie@lightingfires.co.ukor contact me on LinkedIn,
Julie Williams msc.
If you found this podcast helpful,please leave a five star rating
(41:38):
so others just like you can findme and benefit from these stories.
Thank you for listening tothe Lighting Fires podcast.
I'll be back soon with moreconversations with my wonderful clients
reflecting on their coaching journeys.
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