May 27, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of The Lighting Fires Podcast, Executive Coach Julie Williams talks with Mark Schmull, Managing Director of Arrow Planning, about his coaching journey through the Ignite Your Business programme and how it transformed his approach to leadership, team-building, and business growth.
Mark shares how executive coaching helped him build greater self-awareness, tackle imposter syndrome, and grow a team culture based on trust, communication, and purpose. He opens up about the realities of running a business, the power of mentorship, and learning to lead with calm, confidence, and intention.
Whether you’re an entrepreneur, team leader, or business owner, this conversation offers honest insight into what it really takes to lead a growing company.
Topics We Cover:
- Developing leadership confidence through executive coaching
- Building a purpose-driven business from the ground up
- How to handle imposter syndrome as a business leader
- Leading with calm and clarity under pressure
- Creating a supportive and adaptive team culture
- The role of mentorship and building a strong support network
Julie’s Coaching Tips:
- Getting the right mentors – Who challenges and inspires you?
- Map your personal boardroom – Who and what fuels your growth? (People, books, podcasts, routines...)
Book Recommendation:
Who Is in Your Personal Boardroom? by Amanda Scott – A practical tool to help you identify the key people who can support your leadership journey.
Useful Links:
- Julie Williams, Executive Coach: www.lightingfires.co.uk
- Mark Schmull & Arrow Planning: https://www.arrowplanning.co.uk
- Connect with Julie on LinkedIn: Julie Williams MSc
- Email Julie: julie@lightingfires.co.uk
- Interested in a free taster 'Ignite your Business' session with Julie? Check out the next available session here: https://www.
eventbrite.co.uk/o/lighting- fires-julie-williams- 14355302598
If this episode resonated with you, please leave a 5* rating or share it with a colleague. Your support helps more leaders discover these inspiring coaching stories.
Artwork by Ian Guppy
Music by Penguin Music via Pixabay
Produced by Perri Hurley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:04):
I've always been a firm believer in coaching.
You know, I do a lot of learning.
I like to read and I've, I've got a veryinquisitive mind, but I also recognise
that to improve and to be better,learn from those around you who either
have done that or have the necessaryskills to help take you on that path.
(00:25):
And there's also theaccountability side of it as well.
'cause I don't want to let you down asmy coach and, and as my friend as well.
Julie (00:34):
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
My name is Julie Williams and I'm a coach.
I'm a master's in coaching andbehavioral change over 10 years of
running my own coaching practiceand 15 years in marketing leadership
roles, including Accenture,where I've worked with Microsoft.
In my work, I gain the benefitof walking with people through
(00:56):
their lives for a short time.
So on this podcast, you'll getto hear from people experiencing
key moments of change in theirbusiness and personal lives.
We'll hear what lit theirfires and the techniques that
created significant shifts.
I hope you find their story inspiring.
In this episode, we'll meet MarkSchmull, the managing director of Arrow
(01:18):
Planning, a town planning company basedin Wickham just outside of London.
One member of Mark's team recentlytold me that he is by far the
best planner that he has ever met.
Mark is an expert on the greenbelt, a ring of countryside
just outside of London.
Mark and I met at Christmas drinksin 2019 and went on to work together.
(01:40):
During the national lockdown, I setup a mastermind group of five business
leaders to help them navigate thechallenges that the lockdown was bringing.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe power of having a business
or a work community behind you.
We discuss imposter syndrome and alsotaking risks as a business owner.
(02:04):
I hope you enjoy this conversationbetween Mark and myself.
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
Today I have Mark Schmull onthe show, so I'm gonna ask
you to introduce yourself now.
Mark (02:20):
Great, thank you.
Well, firstly, thankyou for having me here.
Delighted to be here.
So yeah, I'm Mark Schmull.
I'm managing director of ArrowPlanning, which is a town planning
consultancy in High Wickham.
I founded the businessnearly seven years ago now.
And it's been quite a journeyover that time upwards mostly, but
obviously plenty of, um, challengesthroughout that time as well.
(02:40):
But yeah, it's exciting and I'mlooking forward to the future
as well to see what that brings.
Julie (02:43):
So we first met during lockdown, didn't we?
Actually it was just before,was it just before It was, um,
Mark (02:50):
Christmas drinks in the Christmas just before lockdown.
Julie (02:54):
Right?
Yes.
Yeah, that's right.
And then we went on to createa mastermind group together.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that my, my intention around thatwas as we went into lockdown, I felt
that there was a lot of businessowners feeling really isolated,
including myself actually, and.
(03:16):
I felt like something needed to bedone, particularly for some of the
people and the clients that I knew.
And so I thought I could show someleadership in setting up a group.
So it was an opportunity forus to get together on a regular
basis, have a confidential space.
It was kind of really open for us toexplore our business challenges at a, a
(03:39):
really pressured time of change where.
Clients were changing their needsand, and what they needed from us
as businesses, and we were gettinga lot of conflicting advice as well.
So, so that was really kind ofwhere we started, wasn't it?
Mark (03:54):
Yes.
Yeah.
And it, it was, you know, I'm verygrateful for what you did in taking
that initiative to bring that forwardbecause it was a very difficult time
and it was a great community feelingthat you created for us at that point.
Julie (04:07):
Yeah, and I've benefited a lot from that community as well.
But maybe before we get into thecoaching, maybe you could just
tell us a bit about your backstory.
Mark (04:17):
Yes.
Yeah, so I've been working in the propertyindustry for roughly 20 years, but I
never, I didn't plan to go into that.
I sort of fell into it really.
I did geography at university, and when Isort of graduated, I did some traveling.
Around South America and I got atemping job at the local council
to where I was, and it happenedto be in the planning department.
(04:39):
And I started off just inadmin doing filing and so on.
And then got offered a rolein the planning team as a
sort of trainee planner.
And that's really how I started.
So like I said, I just sort of fell intothat, did that for a while, and, and
got the opportunity to do a a master'scourse whilst working at the council.
So I started that, but it wasgetting quite ambitious in terms
(05:01):
of my career, sort of earlytwenties and sort of thinking about
where's this going to take me?
And the authority I was workingfor certainly, you know, at that
time was very much glass ceilings.
You were stuck in a position whereif you wanted to progress, you
had to wait for somebody to leave.
And until they did, you weren't reallygonna progress beyond a certain points.
So I, I took the decision to moveinto the, um, private sector at
(05:22):
that stage, and I joined a companycalled Hives Planning in Reading and
worked there for nine years or so.
And I was very fortunate that itwas a small business, but that were
working on a real mixture of projects,particularly large scale projects.
So I got really good exposure to a rangeof planning issues, but actually also
(05:43):
business issues as well at the same time.
And, and during that period, you know,about a year or so after I joined,
it was the sort of the, the, therecession around sort of 2008 or so.
So I'd sort of joined in a, in abuoyant time and then sort of year
or two later, seeing how that quicklychanged to a very difficult time within
the, you know, the global economyas well as within our industry and.
(06:05):
You know, that really sort of gaveme that sort of exposure beyond just
the looking at the day to day of townplanning and what I do in my day job
to actually running a business and whatthat involves and the decisions that
have to be taken sort of fast forwarda few years and it got to a point again
where I sort of, I wanted to progressand actually the managing director
was retiring and, and there was asort of change in ownership structure
(06:26):
and actually ended up, um, becomingpart of a much larger organisation.
Going back to your theme aboutchange, it was actually a, a time in
my life where I was looking at, youknow, I was approaching parenthood.
My, it was not long beforemy daughter was to be born.
And I was also just questioningactually whether I enjoyed
my work and what I was doing.
And it's, you know, it's really one of my.
(06:48):
Fundamental principles is peopleshould enjoy what they do at work.
'cause you spend so much time there.
So I did start lookingat other career paths.
Julie (06:56):
So what were you thinking then at that moment?
Mark (06:59):
Good question.
I did not really know.
I felt at the time a bit,probably a bit lost and not
quite sure where my place was.
I was chatting to friends and, andI've always had quite a strong interest
in sport and health and fitness.
So I had discussions with a coupleof friends that were looking at
football coaching and looking atstarting a football coaching business
(07:19):
on the side for, for young people.
But the fact that I was sort oflooking at starting a family at
that point was a very strong.
Factor in my mind, I had to bethinking about income, the risk
of starting a new business.
There's the financial implications, butparticularly within sports and health and
fitness and so on, it's quite well knownas an industry or actually it's very,
(07:42):
very difficult to make any money from, do
Julie (07:45):
you know, I didn't know this about you, this like nearly the arrow
planning might not have ever existed andthat you could have become a football
coach or had a business in in that field.
So then you started,
Mark (07:57):
so I didn't then start
Julie (07:58):
Alright,.
Okay.
Mark (07:58):
So I had , at that point, an opportunity came up to join another
planning consultancy who wereopening a new office in Reading.
And so I took that as a chance tosee what it's like to effectively
help build a business at a point.
And that certainly created a, startedmy mindset going back to that business
(08:19):
side that I'd learned in in the previouscompany and, and that opportunity to
understand how you need to manage abusiness and the budget and so on.
But it was within a larger structure, soI had that comfort of, firstly, I had a
senior director above me who was the leadfor the office, and secondly, we were part
of a sort of 200 plus employee companythat was on a very sound financial base.
(08:43):
So we had that support at the backend in terms of human resources
and accounts and other officesand people that we could speak to,
to, to learn lessons from really.
So I, I, I joined there andactually that certainly reignited.
Some of my sort of passion and I thinkin that two year period I was there, I,
I learned huge amounts, much more thanmaybe in the sort of preceding couple of
(09:05):
years where maybe I'd got a bit stagnantin terms of what I was doing and, and
the opportunities that were around me.
Julie (09:10):
Yeah.
Talking about learning abouthow to set up a business.
Was there one or two standout?
Lessons from that?
Mark (09:20):
Yes.
I mean, like I said, I, I wasvery fortunate because there was
that, that wider infrastructure.
Julie (09:25):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (09:25):
But I think one of the key things was patience.
It was very good to be within a, abusiness that recognize that this
is a new office, it's a new area.
They recognize that these things,particularly within the property
industry and planning where a lot ofprojects do take a long time, that
there needs to be a realistic lead in.
In that regard, rather than right, if bysix months of running you are not turning
(09:49):
a profit, then we need to think abouta different strategy or someone else.
It's understand the reasons,but not just put undue and
unnecessary pressure on ourselves.
Julie (10:00):
I think patience is actually really interesting point, isn't it?
About setting up a business andobviously you've gotta have the, the
financial kind of confidence to bepatient when you're starting out.
Yeah, it's a really interesting point.
Okay, so what was next?
Mark (10:19):
So, as I said, I, I like to do things a bit difficult.
So I started, I. The, therole within that business.
And about a month later, my daughterwas born, so I went straight into a
new role, a new job, and straight intohaving my, my first child as well.
So I thought, you know,time that perfectly.
But again, I was fortunate.
It was a very supportive business.
My, my, my sort of senior directorDan, who I worked with, you know, was
(10:41):
fantastic from day one and, and youknow, really sort of helped me through
that and had a young family himself.
So appreciated what it's like.
But yeah, so I did that for two years,but I, again, I started to get itchy feet.
And it wasn't so much itchy feet in termsof, I was unhappy there, but I've always
stayed in contact with, um, the managingdirector from Hives who has been as much
(11:01):
as a, a, a sort of a, a, you know, boss.
He's also been a, a friend and a, afather figure as well and very supportive.
And he, you know, sort of moved intoretirement and had long been saying to me,
you should set up your own consultancy.
You know, something he'd done sort of20 years previous in creating hives and
(11:22):
he, he very much was suggesting that andsupporting that and, and prompting me.
And we went out for a boozy lunchone day and, and, and it really
got my mind thinking about it.
Julie (11:31):
So I'm just thinking about how important it's to have.
A mentor, isn't it?
Or somebody who's perhaps been thereand done that or is at least on your
side and is willing to support you andchallenge your thinking and perhaps make
introductions where possible That kind of,I quite often think about the idea of the
(11:51):
personal boardroom, which is an excellentbook by the way, where when you set up a
business it's, or if you are working ina kind of corporate role to have a bunch
of people around you almost kind of.
You can make it formal or you can justimagine that they're in these roles and
they never actually know that you'vekind of picked them for these roles,
(12:13):
but how different people can fulfilldifferent supporting roles for you.
You know, you might have somebodywho's your energizer, somebody who's
your challenger, you know, people thatyou need around you when, when you
are taking on a big role like that,
Mark (12:29):
yes, it it's, it's crucial.
And I'm a huge believer in thepeople around you, shape you and
mold you, um, for good and for bad.
And if you're fortunate to have mentorfigures, parental figures within your
life that can take on that role, thenyou know, you're very, very fortunate.
And it's something I. I've been verylucky that I've benefited from that.
(12:51):
Externally, I had a, yeah, a, adifficult at times upbringing compared
to some with my sort of parents gettingdivorced when I was quite young.
But, and my, my relationship, myfather's never been the strongest at all.
And whilst he's alwaysbeen supportive in his way.
It's been very much focused aroundhis needs rather than my needs and
his perception of what I need interms of that support rather than
(13:14):
necessarily what I actually do need.
I remember when I, when I sort of startedthe business and even to this day, he
never really understood it and he wasjust for all focused on the financial
side of it and why you doing thatrather than being, this is a fantastic
thing well done and encouraging of it.
And, and that's because it's differentto what he knew and what he knows.
(13:36):
So I was fortunate to havethat support in other places.
Um, Andrew was one of them, and, and,and he very much did that when I worked
with him previously as well and gaveme the right opportunities to sort of
grow within there and, and as you say,the introductions to others as well.
And that brought me on then togoing for lunch with him and a sort
(13:59):
of a, a friend or somebody who isnow a friend, but also a client.
And again.
A bit of a mentor to me, Steven, whobetween the two of them effectively put
me on that path to, to setting up Arrow.
Julie (14:11):
So when I first met you, how many people were in the team?
Mark (14:16):
Just me.
Julie (14:17):
I thought so.
It was so, so, yeah.
So when we first met, it was just me.
And then as we moved into lockdownand, and when we sort of started,
I'd just taken that decision.
And just on the 1st of March, 2020,taken on my first team member, Rob,
at associate level as well, so seniorlevel and, and two weeks later,
watched the world change dramatically.
(14:39):
So I guess that brings us onto to thecoaching work that we did together,
and we've done quite a bit of teamcoaching since, but specifically we're
talking about this mastermind group,so it was called Ignite Your Business.
And so with a real focus on supportingone another and looking at our.
Our challenges and our opportunitiesand challenging each other a
(15:01):
little bit sometimes as well.
But the group was able to kind ofshare their wisdom and actually
we had a lot of humor as well,which I think was really important.
I really looked forwardto our, our meetings.
So our first six sessions actuallywere really in that kind of setup.
It went on to evolve a bit after that.
So at that moment in time.
(15:23):
Why did you come to coaching?
What was, what was it you werehoping to achieve from that?
Mark (15:29):
I've always been a firm believer in coaching.
You know, I do a lot of learning.
I like to read and I've, I've got a veryinquisitive mind, but I also recognize
that to be, to improve and to be better.
Learn from those around you whoeither have done that or have
the necessary skills to helptake you on that, on that path.
(15:52):
And there's also theaccountability side of it as well.
Mm. You can hold yourself to account,but actually it's a great help to me
to have someone like yourself therewho then can hold me to account to
make suggestions or make sure I'mon a certain path, but then ensure.
That I'm doing that or that it just givesme that, that bit of extra motivation.
'cause I don't want to let you down asmy coach and, and as my friend as well.
(16:14):
So that draws me to it as well.
Julie (16:16):
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
And in terms of.
Business challenges was, was therea specific goal that you had in
your mind that you wanted to achievethrough the coaching and the community?
Mark (16:30):
Yes, definitely.
So it was a time, again, it was, itwas another transition because when I
set up Arrow maybe seven years ago now.
I wasn't sure whether actually I wantedto grow the business or whether actually
I wanted to just be on myself andsort of earn what I needed to earn and
work on the projects I wanted to earn.
But I, I sort of, I, I did that fora couple of years and I, and I got
(16:51):
to a point where the business was.
Working well, it was being successfuland, and I was turning down work.
And so I got to a sort of a, a stickor twist moment, and I joined a, uh,
growth program, uh, which was sort offunded program through Buckinghamshire
business first, and that opened upmy eyes to the opportunities around
(17:12):
growth and the support networks there.
And then I met, you know, anumber of other business owners.
And, and a sort of community there.
So when we first met and startedworking together, I'd, I'd sort
of spent the last year doing that.
I'd just taken on Rob and I wasat that point again of right, this
is a very difficult situation atthat exact time because of, of
what was going on in the world.
(17:33):
But equally having just broughtsomewhere and do I then want to grow
beyond that position as well, or thatsame conversation of do just stick with
the two of us and, and start there.
And through this support network thatwe'd established through the mastermind
sessions and through what we're exploringtogether as a group, it allowed me
(17:53):
that chance to grapple with that issue.
Julie (17:56):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (17:56):
And understand what did that mean?
What were others in this group who alsowere small business owners and, and
actually sort of growing at the same time.
What, what were they sortof thinking about it?
And for us all push each other.
Julie (18:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (18:10):
With again, your sort of guidance and steering of the ship through there,
and that, that really helped me then focusand think about, right, what is my plan?
Am I growing and, and, and took thedecision to, to certainly do that?
And then how do I do that?
And what's the team dynamic and thepeople and the personalities, but
what am I trying to get from this?
(18:31):
What, you know, whatdo I want Arrow to be?
Because that then helps shape who I wantto come and be part of Arrow as well.
Julie (18:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, and, and I think as abusiness owner, I've seen this
a lot with a lot of my clients.
Those decisions.
To start hiring more people and to grow.
There's, there's so muchanxiety around that isn't there?
And, and the decision, do you hiresomebody really senior who can potentially
(18:59):
bring a network with them and theycan do their own business development?
But obviously at a higher cost tothe business, or do you bring in
somebody much more junior who thenyou have to invest a lot of time
and effort to bring them along?
So it is, it is a reallypivotal moment, isn't it?
Mark (19:17):
It it is definitely.
And it's also thinking about the culture.
Particularly with a smallbusiness, personalities can be very
strong and very well reflected.
And, and when you're a much largerbusiness, people can, for good reasons
and bad reasons, either be lost withinthat mix or, or, or drowned out,
which, you know, can be a negative.
(19:37):
But it, it can help if for whatever reasonyou get the wrong person in the team.
But with your smallbusiness it, it's crucial.
And so as well as the financial.
Decision, it's then how does thatchange the nature of what your offer is?
How does that person come in, changehow you might want to do things and what
can you learn from that person as well?
And it doesn't matter whether they're20 years experience or, or straight
(19:59):
from university, they have experience,they have views and things that they
can bring to the table and, and soit's recognizing what sort of character
do I want to bring in and how doI want to learn from them as well?
But.
How do I want them to understandwhat I'm trying to do and then what
becomes the louder voice while stillbeing able to listen at the same time?
Julie (20:22):
Yeah, and I remember one of the themes that we spoke about
quite a lot for you was abouthow do you bring the team on?
How do you listen to them more?
How do you kind of, what is that teamculture that you're trying to develop?
Yeah.
And, and that's continued to bea, a big theme for Arrow planning?
Mark (20:42):
Yes.
Julie (20:42):
Yeah.
Are you feeling stuck and needsome help moving forwards?
At Lighting Fires I work with businessleaders, future leaders, and their teams
to ignite their full leadership potential.
Whether you're a business owneror leading in an organization,
(21:03):
we can work together to create aprogram tailored to your priorities.
Throughout our coaching together, I seemy clients' confidence and capabilities
grow as they gain a greater understandingof how they work, learn to make quicker
decisions and develop a vision for theirrole and a plan on how to get there.
Through the challenges and thebreakthroughsm you'll have me by your
(21:26):
side . Get in touch on LinkedIn oremail me Julie@lightingfires.co.uk
So are there, when you think back tothat mastermind session, either in those
first six sessions or as it kind ofdeveloped more into a kind of leadership
(21:48):
program, are there, are there kind ofkey moments like light bulb moments
or moments of change or somethingjust shifted for you that had impact?
Mark (21:59):
Yes, certainly.
So I think that there was a. The,the first sort of six sessions or so
I felt were very much as a sort of,in some ways a collective support
network for us all at the time.
It, it was a chance for us to cometogether, share our, our fears, and
actually it, it was in a nice way.
It was reassuring to know I'm not alone.
(22:21):
I'm not the only one having theseproblems, and it helped me focus my mind
more to recognize, okay, we're, we'rein this together a bit and, and there's
others here who are, who I can supportand who are willing to support me as well.
So that was you, you know, that wasa real positive mindset shift through
doing that in that first period then.
(22:41):
And I think then moving on beyondthat, we covered as a group some
very tough and honest topics.
Um, I can remember conversations thatyou sort of offered where you said.
Are there things people want tobring to the table that we can
then focus on going forward?
(23:02):
And for example, I, I remember leadingthe session or sort of asking you to
sort of focus on imposter syndrome.
Julie (23:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (23:08):
Because that's something I, I've struggled with plenty of times throughout
my career and, and my personal life.
And again, through working togetherand sharing with the others in the team
and, and through your sort of guidance.
That realization thatwe all go through this.
Mm-hmm.
And we all have our different techniquesfor dealing with it and, and the
ability to recognize that and talkthrough that has been a real help.
(23:31):
And something I keep reflecting, I.And reminding myself of now and, and
sharing and talking through with othersas well, particularly within my team.
Julie (23:39):
Mm-hmm.
I, I was thinking back actually aboutthat particular session because it
seemed to have quite a profound impacton at least a few of us in that call
and I remember you talking about doI deserve the seat at the table in
some of the meetings that I'm having?
(23:59):
And I think at the time you weregetting involved in a very large
project as well that could have a hugeinfluence on the growth of the business.
And, and I was just sat there listeningto you thinking, oh my gosh, Mark,
you know, I, I had no idea actuallythat you felt like this, and to me,
you so deserve the seat at the table.
(24:19):
So for you to show that vulnerability,I think was really powerful for
everybody else because it made theycould be a bit more courageous and,
and talk about their similar feelings.
Mark (24:31):
Thank you.
No, I've, I really appreciate that and itis, I've, I've, I've shared it with others
at times and again, I've had a similarthat, that sort of surprise and, I am a
confident person, definitely, but I stillstruggle with, with these challenges.
Julie (24:47):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (24:47):
And, and, and there are plenty of times when I still question
should, do I deserve to be here?
Should I be here?
Am I the right person to be here?
You know, do I know what I'm doing?
Julie (24:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (24:58):
But yeah, that's, I, I'd be worried if I wasn't questioning
myself in that regard, to be honest.
Julie (25:03):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I'm just gonna talk briefly about aconversation we had before we started
recording this morning, um, where we'retalking about how business owners or
people who are getting into really seniorcorporate positions often experience some
imposter syndrome around dealing withthe numbers and the financial statements.
(25:24):
And you were telling me a brilliantstory about Richard Branson actually.
Mark (25:28):
Yes.
Yeah.
So.
I listened to, um, Steven Bartlett'spodcast and he had Richard Branson on, uh,
uh, Richard Branson was very honest abouthow he's a very successful businessman,
done multiple, multiple businesses.
And I think something like 20 years intohis career, he was in a board meeting and
they were talking about accounts, and I'mprobably getting this slightly wrong, but
(25:50):
effectively what, what he was saying wasthere was a discussion around turnover.
And he had to ask what turnoverwas because he didn't know.
And so this is a person who's hugelysuccessful, lots of businesses that
have turned massive profits, lotsof finance well into his career,
and yet he doesn't know about thenumbers and the finance at all.
(26:11):
And, and, you know, what are someof the more common accountancy
terms rather than specialist ones.
Julie (26:17):
Thank you.
Um, and, and any othermoments have changed?
I mean, one thing I just wantto reflect on is that, um.
At one point in the later seriesof sessions that we did, we
looked at Belbin team roles.
For people who don't know, it's a kind ofpsychometric test where you can discover
what typical role you take in a team,whether you might be something called a
(26:40):
plant, um, which can be very much aboutbringing lots of ideas or lots of people
have heard the phrase completer finisher.
So somebody who's really good atactually finishing projects, that's
not something I'm so good at.
Um, but I remember you coming out as a,um, coordinator and somebody, I mean,
that role actually tends to be somebodywho is very calm, can take almost a kind
(27:07):
of chairperson role in a situation and,that actually, I mean the, the coaching
term is parallel process because we weretalking about it, but I was seeing it
in action at the same time that, youknow, there, there was one slightly
challenging situation came up and youreally did act like the chairperson and.
You know, just kind of being verycalm and smoothing things and it
(27:31):
was just really interesting to, tosee you take that role, which to me
just shows how much you deserve theseat at many tables that you sit at.
Mark (27:41):
Thank you.
Yes.
Yeah, I was looking back at the,the sort of Belbin work, and it is.
It is something I've done a lot in mylife without necessarily realizing.
And so when we did that work together, itdid bring that realization to the surface.
You know, I look back at sports teamsand I've quite often filled a captain's
role, whether being given the captaincyor actually just defaulting to doing
(28:04):
that, regardless of whether I've, I'vegot the arm, the armband there and it's
something I've, I've developed as a skill.
And worked hard on in termsof my professional career as
well, and recognizing it'ssomething I, I naturally fall to.
Julie (28:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (28:17):
But I still need to do a lot of the work around that, and particularly
on the listening side and recognizingwhen to listen and when to speak.
And I don't always get that right.
But you to give thatopportunity for others to go.
But the, the calmness is, is somethingI've had to work very hard on as well.
Julie (28:34):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think, I think a lotof us who appear to be calm.
Are quite often like swans, kind ofpaddling really fast under the wards.
So is there any other kind of key momentsof change either during um, coaching or,
or outside, you know, often other thingshave a massive influence on us, don't it?
Mark (28:55):
Yes, they do.
Definitely.
I mean, certainly again, justthrough the, the coaching, it's
given me that confidence to, tobuild and grow the business really.
You know, we're now up to a, a teamof eight of us and that's, that's sort
of grown massively within the last twoyears mostly, and the work through the
coaching has been really beneficial forthe whole team because there's, there's
(29:18):
members of the team that maybe didn'tquite understand how others worked or
liked to work or liked to communicate.
And I, I know from having doneparticularly our, our first
sort of wider team session andhaving some discussions with.
With members of the team afterwards, thatsort of light bulb movement came as a
result of doing that, that that coachingwork together because they suddenly
(29:39):
understood a different perspective,or that when someone was interacting
in one fashion that wasn't about them,that was more about how that person.
Communicates or doesn't communicate.
And so it's then thinking, how can we asa team work more effectively together?
Julie (29:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's, it's, it is often just thatopportunity to get to know people a
little bit better and how they liketo communicate and, and who they are,
create such a depth of understanding.
And then we can also adapt ourown behavior a bit, can't we?
In in that respect?
Yeah.
(30:21):
Okay, so, um, at this pointI'm gonna offer you to pick
a question out of the hat.
So I've got a set ofquestions, um, that I would.
Like to offer people, but there'sgonna be an element of surprise here.
So would you like to pick a question?
Mark (30:39):
Oh, we'll go for a lucky dip and see what we have.
Right.
Which career or leadershipmyth would you like to dispel?
That's a really good question.
I, I think what I, what I sortof choose is about the the
leader knows what they're doing.
Julie (31:01):
Mm.
Mark (31:02):
I, I think is a massive one because there, there's a lot of the time you,
you just don't know what you're doing.
But
Julie (31:10):
aren't we all making it up as we go along, really?
Yeah.
Mark (31:13):
It, it is.
It's very much so, I, I think it's, uh,it's having that, that skill to be open
and recognize that, and then think about.
I don't know the answer, but Iknow where to find the answer.
Mm-hmm.
Be that from getting.
assistance, guidance, coaching,to look in a certain area.
(31:34):
But actually most of the time, mostyou, you'll find most leaders don't
necessarily know what they're doing or,or have this clear direction and vision
that they know where they're going.
Julie (31:42):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (31:43):
Um, despite how it might appear from the outside.
Julie (31:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and you're reminding me of, um,another client I was working with
recently who said that the plan iseverything and the plan is nothing.
So as long as you have a plan,then you can just throw it away.
'cause something's always gonnacome up that you're not expecting.
Mark (32:04):
Yeah,
Julie (32:04):
but it gives you probably the confidence to start something, doesn't it?
So, yeah, I like that phrase.
I'm adopting that phrase.
So what, what would you now say tosomebody who's, if you kind of rewind
back to your beginnings setting upArrow, is there any advice that you
would offer to somebody in that position?
Mark (32:26):
Yeah, I, I think the first thing I'd say is, go for it.
Julie (32:28):
Yeah.
Mark (32:29):
Is a hundred percent.
Just go for it.
The, you know, I've, I've a very closefriend of mine, quite often, we, we go
mounting biking and things like that,and we quite often have a phrase of
what's the worst that could happen?
Julie (32:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (32:39):
And yes, you can go into a mindset, you know, particularly if we, you know,
say we're mounted biking, I could falloff and I could break my leg and so on.
But actually the chancesare are pretty slim.
Julie (32:47):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (32:48):
And when you rationalize those thoughts, so again, when,
when you start up a business, what'sthe worst that's going to happen?
It's going to fail.
But as long as you've set yourselfup in a respectful manner.
That you're not putting your, your, youknow, if you've got a family putting
them at undue risk, then that's theworst that can happen is it just doesn't
(33:08):
work out and you go and get a job.
Julie (33:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (33:10):
When, when I started Arrow, I didn't burn any bridges in my previous role and I
was very much of a, if this does not work.
Then I'll just go and apply for a job.
So my first piece of advicewould be to go for it.
And the second is be ambitious,but don't put undue pressure on
yourself when you start a business.
In my experience and from speaking toothers, you don't need all the bells and
(33:32):
whistles and the toys and gadgets again.
You know, most of my first year, myexpenses were basically for a laptop.
For the business and my proffesionalinsurance cover and I was sat in my
effectively garden shed didn't needa certain car or anything like that.
I didn't need certain clothes,gadgets, software, things like that.
Kept it really lean.
(33:53):
And then as I worked, I workedout what was effective and useful.
And actually the most usefulthings for me were advice.
It was accountant, it was experienceof friends, and then in due
time, coaching and, and so on.
And that's actually where I put myresources rather than necessarily
having the new latest technologyor phone or a nice car to impress
(34:15):
certain people or anything like that.
I wanted to impress people with thequality of my work and my advice.
Julie (34:20):
Yeah, that's great.
I really like that and I, I thinkthis whole idea of go for it, I mean.
Exactly what is the worst that can happen?
You're gonna learn so much alongthe way, whatever happens, and
that's brilliant kind of richexperience life experience, isn't it?
So I think, you know, as we said earlier,if you've got some supportive people
(34:41):
around you, that feels really key to me.
Certainly I felt that whenI started up lighting fires.
I'm, and I've continued to have verysupportive clients like yourself and,
and I feel really grateful to have foundthis kind of community of people who
kind of keep pushing me forward too.
Yeah, it's great.
(35:02):
So I guess my final question is,uh, what's, what's next for you?
Mark (35:07):
It's a very good question.
I do have some plans for the future.
At the moment, it's very muchabout building on what we have.
With Arrow.
I've got a fantastic team there.
We've recently launched the,the sort of vision and values
Julie (35:20):
mm-hmm.
Mark (35:21):
With the team that's been really, really well received.
And so my real focus for certainlythe next six months or so is
consolidating that, making surewe as a team are very clear on our
purpose, why we're doing what we'redoing, and how we're doing that, and
then how we're communicating that.
To clients and, and on projects intothe outside world and to really living
Julie (35:44):
mm-hmm.
Mark (35:45):
Within those.
So that's my focus for now.
And then after that, we'll,we'll see what happens.
Julie (35:50):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
So, mark, I'm wondering whether youmight come back and do another interview
at some point in the future and, and wemight be able to reflect on what you've
done, but also potentially we could doa bit of kind of live coaching as well.
That might be interestingfor people to listen to.
Mark (36:09):
Yes, I'd be delighted to.
I'd love to do that.
Julie (36:11):
So is there anything more that you'd like to, to say before we finish?
Mark (36:15):
I'd just like to say thank you for the opportunity today.
It's been brilliant.
Lots of fun talking about this andit's the, the run up to this in
terms of the chance to just thinkback and reflect on, on all of this.
All of this time, really, not just thecareer time, but the last few years
and, and, and what I've been learning.
It's great 'cause you don'talways take time to do that.
So I'm grateful to have had thatopportunity to do that as well.
Julie (36:37):
Yes.
Yeah.
And so we continue tolearn together, don't we?
Mark (36:41):
We do.
Yeah.
Julie (36:42):
It's alright.
Thank you, Mark.
Listening back to my interview withMark, the phrase, no man or person
is an island comes to my mind.
We rarely achieve anything in life onour own, like Olympic athletes who have
a whole team around them of coaches,physios, nutritionists, and the support
(37:05):
and encouragement of family and friends.
Many of us need a teamin some shape or form.
So these are my two toptips for this episode.
The first is to think about mentors.
Sometimes there will be peoplewho very naturally fulfill
these roles in our lives.
(37:27):
They may have already achieved whatyou'd like to achieve, or they may
be successful in another field.
They might have a lot of learningsto impart or introductions to make
or can challenge your thinking.
A really useful book is who is in yourpersonal boardroom by Amanda Scott.
She helps you think about all theimportant roles you may need to support
(37:50):
you in your endeavor and encourages youto have those conversations with people.
My second tip is mapping outyour network of support on paper
or on a digital whiteboard.
Using diagrams, images, symbols,and words to map out the people, the
books, podcasts, perhaps the timesof day that inspire you and any other
(38:16):
activities that help you grow and learnand develop in your role or business.
By mapping these out, you can seewhat are the key foundations, what
can give you momentum to go forward,and also identify potential blockers.
When I learned about this techniqueat Henley Business School, I mapped
(38:37):
out my own business as I was settingit up and the network that I needed.
This had real impact onlighting my own fires.
If you'd like to find out how wecould work together, you can visit
my website, www.lightingfires.co.uk.
(38:58):
Email me at julie@lightingfires.co.Ukor contact me on LinkedIn,
Julie Williams, msc.
If you found this podcast helpful,please leave a five star rating
so others just like you can findme and benefit from these stories.
Thank you for listening tothe Lighting Fires podcast.
(39:22):
I'll be back soon with moreconversations with my wonderful clients
reflecting on their coaching journeys.
I've always been a firm believer in coaching.
You know, I do a lot of learning.
I like to read and I've, I've got a veryinquisitive mind, but I also recognise
that to improve and to be better,learn from those around you who either
have done that or have the necessaryskills to help take you on that path.
(00:25):
And there's also theaccountability side of it as well.
'cause I don't want to let you down asmy coach and, and as my friend as well.
Julie (00:34):
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
My name is Julie Williams and I'm a coach.
I'm a master's in coaching andbehavioral change over 10 years of
running my own coaching practiceand 15 years in marketing leadership
roles, including Accenture,where I've worked with Microsoft.
In my work, I gain the benefitof walking with people through
(00:56):
their lives for a short time.
So on this podcast, you'll getto hear from people experiencing
key moments of change in theirbusiness and personal lives.
We'll hear what lit theirfires and the techniques that
created significant shifts.
I hope you find their story inspiring.
In this episode, we'll meet MarkSchmull, the managing director of Arrow
(01:18):
Planning, a town planning company basedin Wickham just outside of London.
One member of Mark's team recentlytold me that he is by far the
best planner that he has ever met.
Mark is an expert on the greenbelt, a ring of countryside
just outside of London.
Mark and I met at Christmas drinksin 2019 and went on to work together.
(01:40):
During the national lockdown, I setup a mastermind group of five business
leaders to help them navigate thechallenges that the lockdown was bringing.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe power of having a business
or a work community behind you.
We discuss imposter syndrome and alsotaking risks as a business owner.
(02:04):
I hope you enjoy this conversationbetween Mark and myself.
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
Today I have Mark Schmull onthe show, so I'm gonna ask
you to introduce yourself now.
Mark (02:20):
Great, thank you.
Well, firstly, thankyou for having me here.
Delighted to be here.
So yeah, I'm Mark Schmull.
I'm managing director of ArrowPlanning, which is a town planning
consultancy in High Wickham.
I founded the businessnearly seven years ago now.
And it's been quite a journeyover that time upwards mostly, but
obviously plenty of, um, challengesthroughout that time as well.
(02:40):
But yeah, it's exciting and I'mlooking forward to the future
as well to see what that brings.
Julie (02:43):
So we first met during lockdown, didn't we?
Actually it was just before,was it just before It was, um,
Mark (02:50):
Christmas drinks in the Christmas just before lockdown.
Julie (02:54):
Right?
Yes.
Yeah, that's right.
And then we went on to createa mastermind group together.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that my, my intention around thatwas as we went into lockdown, I felt
that there was a lot of businessowners feeling really isolated,
including myself actually, and.
(03:16):
I felt like something needed to bedone, particularly for some of the
people and the clients that I knew.
And so I thought I could show someleadership in setting up a group.
So it was an opportunity forus to get together on a regular
basis, have a confidential space.
It was kind of really open for us toexplore our business challenges at a, a
(03:39):
really pressured time of change where.
Clients were changing their needsand, and what they needed from us
as businesses, and we were gettinga lot of conflicting advice as well.
So, so that was really kind ofwhere we started, wasn't it?
Mark (03:54):
Yes.
Yeah.
And it, it was, you know, I'm verygrateful for what you did in taking
that initiative to bring that forwardbecause it was a very difficult time
and it was a great community feelingthat you created for us at that point.
Julie (04:07):
Yeah, and I've benefited a lot from that community as well.
But maybe before we get into thecoaching, maybe you could just
tell us a bit about your backstory.
Mark (04:17):
Yes.
Yeah, so I've been working in the propertyindustry for roughly 20 years, but I
never, I didn't plan to go into that.
I sort of fell into it really.
I did geography at university, and when Isort of graduated, I did some traveling.
Around South America and I got atemping job at the local council
to where I was, and it happenedto be in the planning department.
(04:39):
And I started off just inadmin doing filing and so on.
And then got offered a rolein the planning team as a
sort of trainee planner.
And that's really how I started.
So like I said, I just sort of fell intothat, did that for a while, and, and
got the opportunity to do a a master'scourse whilst working at the council.
So I started that, but it wasgetting quite ambitious in terms
(05:01):
of my career, sort of earlytwenties and sort of thinking about
where's this going to take me?
And the authority I was workingfor certainly, you know, at that
time was very much glass ceilings.
You were stuck in a position whereif you wanted to progress, you
had to wait for somebody to leave.
And until they did, you weren't reallygonna progress beyond a certain points.
So I, I took the decision to moveinto the, um, private sector at
(05:22):
that stage, and I joined a companycalled Hives Planning in Reading and
worked there for nine years or so.
And I was very fortunate that itwas a small business, but that were
working on a real mixture of projects,particularly large scale projects.
So I got really good exposure to a rangeof planning issues, but actually also
(05:43):
business issues as well at the same time.
And, and during that period, you know,about a year or so after I joined,
it was the sort of the, the, therecession around sort of 2008 or so.
So I'd sort of joined in a, in abuoyant time and then sort of year
or two later, seeing how that quicklychanged to a very difficult time within
the, you know, the global economyas well as within our industry and.
(06:05):
You know, that really sort of gaveme that sort of exposure beyond just
the looking at the day to day of townplanning and what I do in my day job
to actually running a business and whatthat involves and the decisions that
have to be taken sort of fast forwarda few years and it got to a point again
where I sort of, I wanted to progressand actually the managing director
was retiring and, and there was asort of change in ownership structure
(06:26):
and actually ended up, um, becomingpart of a much larger organisation.
Going back to your theme aboutchange, it was actually a, a time in
my life where I was looking at, youknow, I was approaching parenthood.
My, it was not long beforemy daughter was to be born.
And I was also just questioningactually whether I enjoyed
my work and what I was doing.
And it's, you know, it's really one of my.
(06:48):
Fundamental principles is peopleshould enjoy what they do at work.
'cause you spend so much time there.
So I did start lookingat other career paths.
Julie (06:56):
So what were you thinking then at that moment?
Mark (06:59):
Good question.
I did not really know.
I felt at the time a bit,probably a bit lost and not
quite sure where my place was.
I was chatting to friends and, andI've always had quite a strong interest
in sport and health and fitness.
So I had discussions with a coupleof friends that were looking at
football coaching and looking atstarting a football coaching business
(07:19):
on the side for, for young people.
But the fact that I was sort oflooking at starting a family at
that point was a very strong.
Factor in my mind, I had to bethinking about income, the risk
of starting a new business.
There's the financial implications, butparticularly within sports and health and
fitness and so on, it's quite well knownas an industry or actually it's very,
(07:42):
very difficult to make any money from, do
Julie (07:45):
you know, I didn't know this about you, this like nearly the arrow
planning might not have ever existed andthat you could have become a football
coach or had a business in in that field.
So then you started,
Mark (07:57):
so I didn't then start
Julie (07:58):
Alright,.
Okay.
Mark (07:58):
So I had , at that point, an opportunity came up to join another
planning consultancy who wereopening a new office in Reading.
And so I took that as a chance tosee what it's like to effectively
help build a business at a point.
And that certainly created a, startedmy mindset going back to that business
(08:19):
side that I'd learned in in the previouscompany and, and that opportunity to
understand how you need to manage abusiness and the budget and so on.
But it was within a larger structure, soI had that comfort of, firstly, I had a
senior director above me who was the leadfor the office, and secondly, we were part
of a sort of 200 plus employee companythat was on a very sound financial base.
(08:43):
So we had that support at the backend in terms of human resources
and accounts and other officesand people that we could speak to,
to, to learn lessons from really.
So I, I, I joined there andactually that certainly reignited.
Some of my sort of passion and I thinkin that two year period I was there, I,
I learned huge amounts, much more thanmaybe in the sort of preceding couple of
(09:05):
years where maybe I'd got a bit stagnantin terms of what I was doing and, and
the opportunities that were around me.
Julie (09:10):
Yeah.
Talking about learning abouthow to set up a business.
Was there one or two standout?
Lessons from that?
Mark (09:20):
Yes.
I mean, like I said, I, I wasvery fortunate because there was
that, that wider infrastructure.
Julie (09:25):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (09:25):
But I think one of the key things was patience.
It was very good to be within a, abusiness that recognize that this
is a new office, it's a new area.
They recognize that these things,particularly within the property
industry and planning where a lot ofprojects do take a long time, that
there needs to be a realistic lead in.
In that regard, rather than right, if bysix months of running you are not turning
(09:49):
a profit, then we need to think abouta different strategy or someone else.
It's understand the reasons,but not just put undue and
unnecessary pressure on ourselves.
Julie (10:00):
I think patience is actually really interesting point, isn't it?
About setting up a business andobviously you've gotta have the, the
financial kind of confidence to bepatient when you're starting out.
Yeah, it's a really interesting point.
Okay, so what was next?
Mark (10:19):
So, as I said, I, I like to do things a bit difficult.
So I started, I. The, therole within that business.
And about a month later, my daughterwas born, so I went straight into a
new role, a new job, and straight intohaving my, my first child as well.
So I thought, you know,time that perfectly.
But again, I was fortunate.
It was a very supportive business.
My, my, my sort of senior directorDan, who I worked with, you know, was
(10:41):
fantastic from day one and, and youknow, really sort of helped me through
that and had a young family himself.
So appreciated what it's like.
But yeah, so I did that for two years,but I, again, I started to get itchy feet.
And it wasn't so much itchy feet in termsof, I was unhappy there, but I've always
stayed in contact with, um, the managingdirector from Hives who has been as much
(11:01):
as a, a, a sort of a, a, you know, boss.
He's also been a, a friend and a, afather figure as well and very supportive.
And he, you know, sort of moved intoretirement and had long been saying to me,
you should set up your own consultancy.
You know, something he'd done sort of20 years previous in creating hives and
(11:22):
he, he very much was suggesting that andsupporting that and, and prompting me.
And we went out for a boozy lunchone day and, and, and it really
got my mind thinking about it.
Julie (11:31):
So I'm just thinking about how important it's to have.
A mentor, isn't it?
Or somebody who's perhaps been thereand done that or is at least on your
side and is willing to support you andchallenge your thinking and perhaps make
introductions where possible That kind of,I quite often think about the idea of the
(11:51):
personal boardroom, which is an excellentbook by the way, where when you set up a
business it's, or if you are working ina kind of corporate role to have a bunch
of people around you almost kind of.
You can make it formal or you can justimagine that they're in these roles and
they never actually know that you'vekind of picked them for these roles,
(12:13):
but how different people can fulfilldifferent supporting roles for you.
You know, you might have somebodywho's your energizer, somebody who's
your challenger, you know, people thatyou need around you when, when you
are taking on a big role like that,
Mark (12:29):
yes, it it's, it's crucial.
And I'm a huge believer in thepeople around you, shape you and
mold you, um, for good and for bad.
And if you're fortunate to have mentorfigures, parental figures within your
life that can take on that role, thenyou know, you're very, very fortunate.
And it's something I. I've been verylucky that I've benefited from that.
(12:51):
Externally, I had a, yeah, a, adifficult at times upbringing compared
to some with my sort of parents gettingdivorced when I was quite young.
But, and my, my relationship, myfather's never been the strongest at all.
And whilst he's alwaysbeen supportive in his way.
It's been very much focused aroundhis needs rather than my needs and
his perception of what I need interms of that support rather than
(13:14):
necessarily what I actually do need.
I remember when I, when I sort of startedthe business and even to this day, he
never really understood it and he wasjust for all focused on the financial
side of it and why you doing thatrather than being, this is a fantastic
thing well done and encouraging of it.
And, and that's because it's differentto what he knew and what he knows.
(13:36):
So I was fortunate to havethat support in other places.
Um, Andrew was one of them, and, and,and he very much did that when I worked
with him previously as well and gaveme the right opportunities to sort of
grow within there and, and as you say,the introductions to others as well.
And that brought me on then togoing for lunch with him and a sort
(13:59):
of a, a friend or somebody who isnow a friend, but also a client.
And again.
A bit of a mentor to me, Steven, whobetween the two of them effectively put
me on that path to, to setting up Arrow.
Julie (14:11):
So when I first met you, how many people were in the team?
Mark (14:16):
Just me.
Julie (14:17):
I thought so.
It was so, so, yeah.
So when we first met, it was just me.
And then as we moved into lockdownand, and when we sort of started,
I'd just taken that decision.
And just on the 1st of March, 2020,taken on my first team member, Rob,
at associate level as well, so seniorlevel and, and two weeks later,
watched the world change dramatically.
(14:39):
So I guess that brings us onto to thecoaching work that we did together,
and we've done quite a bit of teamcoaching since, but specifically we're
talking about this mastermind group,so it was called Ignite Your Business.
And so with a real focus on supportingone another and looking at our.
Our challenges and our opportunitiesand challenging each other a
(15:01):
little bit sometimes as well.
But the group was able to kind ofshare their wisdom and actually
we had a lot of humor as well,which I think was really important.
I really looked forwardto our, our meetings.
So our first six sessions actuallywere really in that kind of setup.
It went on to evolve a bit after that.
So at that moment in time.
(15:23):
Why did you come to coaching?
What was, what was it you werehoping to achieve from that?
Mark (15:29):
I've always been a firm believer in coaching.
You know, I do a lot of learning.
I like to read and I've, I've got a veryinquisitive mind, but I also recognize
that to be, to improve and to be better.
Learn from those around you whoeither have done that or have
the necessary skills to helptake you on that, on that path.
(15:52):
And there's also theaccountability side of it as well.
Mm. You can hold yourself to account,but actually it's a great help to me
to have someone like yourself therewho then can hold me to account to
make suggestions or make sure I'mon a certain path, but then ensure.
That I'm doing that or that it just givesme that, that bit of extra motivation.
'cause I don't want to let you down asmy coach and, and as my friend as well.
(16:14):
So that draws me to it as well.
Julie (16:16):
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
And in terms of.
Business challenges was, was therea specific goal that you had in
your mind that you wanted to achievethrough the coaching and the community?
Mark (16:30):
Yes, definitely.
So it was a time, again, it was, itwas another transition because when I
set up Arrow maybe seven years ago now.
I wasn't sure whether actually I wantedto grow the business or whether actually
I wanted to just be on myself andsort of earn what I needed to earn and
work on the projects I wanted to earn.
But I, I sort of, I, I did that fora couple of years and I, and I got
(16:51):
to a point where the business was.
Working well, it was being successfuland, and I was turning down work.
And so I got to a sort of a, a stickor twist moment, and I joined a, uh,
growth program, uh, which was sort offunded program through Buckinghamshire
business first, and that opened upmy eyes to the opportunities around
(17:12):
growth and the support networks there.
And then I met, you know, anumber of other business owners.
And, and a sort of community there.
So when we first met and startedworking together, I'd, I'd sort
of spent the last year doing that.
I'd just taken on Rob and I wasat that point again of right, this
is a very difficult situation atthat exact time because of, of
what was going on in the world.
(17:33):
But equally having just broughtsomewhere and do I then want to grow
beyond that position as well, or thatsame conversation of do just stick with
the two of us and, and start there.
And through this support network thatwe'd established through the mastermind
sessions and through what we're exploringtogether as a group, it allowed me
(17:53):
that chance to grapple with that issue.
Julie (17:56):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (17:56):
And understand what did that mean?
What were others in this group who alsowere small business owners and, and
actually sort of growing at the same time.
What, what were they sortof thinking about it?
And for us all push each other.
Julie (18:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (18:10):
With again, your sort of guidance and steering of the ship through there,
and that, that really helped me then focusand think about, right, what is my plan?
Am I growing and, and, and took thedecision to, to certainly do that?
And then how do I do that?
And what's the team dynamic and thepeople and the personalities, but
what am I trying to get from this?
(18:31):
What, you know, whatdo I want Arrow to be?
Because that then helps shape who I wantto come and be part of Arrow as well.
Julie (18:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, and, and I think as abusiness owner, I've seen this
a lot with a lot of my clients.
Those decisions.
To start hiring more people and to grow.
There's, there's so muchanxiety around that isn't there?
And, and the decision, do you hiresomebody really senior who can potentially
(18:59):
bring a network with them and theycan do their own business development?
But obviously at a higher cost tothe business, or do you bring in
somebody much more junior who thenyou have to invest a lot of time
and effort to bring them along?
So it is, it is a reallypivotal moment, isn't it?
Mark (19:17):
It it is definitely.
And it's also thinking about the culture.
Particularly with a smallbusiness, personalities can be very
strong and very well reflected.
And, and when you're a much largerbusiness, people can, for good reasons
and bad reasons, either be lost withinthat mix or, or, or drowned out,
which, you know, can be a negative.
(19:37):
But it, it can help if for whatever reasonyou get the wrong person in the team.
But with your smallbusiness it, it's crucial.
And so as well as the financial.
Decision, it's then how does thatchange the nature of what your offer is?
How does that person come in, changehow you might want to do things and what
can you learn from that person as well?
And it doesn't matter whether they're20 years experience or, or straight
(19:59):
from university, they have experience,they have views and things that they
can bring to the table and, and soit's recognizing what sort of character
do I want to bring in and how doI want to learn from them as well?
But.
How do I want them to understandwhat I'm trying to do and then what
becomes the louder voice while stillbeing able to listen at the same time?
Julie (20:22):
Yeah, and I remember one of the themes that we spoke about
quite a lot for you was abouthow do you bring the team on?
How do you listen to them more?
How do you kind of, what is that teamculture that you're trying to develop?
Yeah.
And, and that's continued to bea, a big theme for Arrow planning?
Mark (20:42):
Yes.
Julie (20:42):
Yeah.
Are you feeling stuck and needsome help moving forwards?
At Lighting Fires I work with businessleaders, future leaders, and their teams
to ignite their full leadership potential.
Whether you're a business owneror leading in an organization,
(21:03):
we can work together to create aprogram tailored to your priorities.
Throughout our coaching together, I seemy clients' confidence and capabilities
grow as they gain a greater understandingof how they work, learn to make quicker
decisions and develop a vision for theirrole and a plan on how to get there.
Through the challenges and thebreakthroughsm you'll have me by your
(21:26):
side . Get in touch on LinkedIn oremail me Julie@lightingfires.co.uk
So are there, when you think back tothat mastermind session, either in those
first six sessions or as it kind ofdeveloped more into a kind of leadership
(21:48):
program, are there, are there kind ofkey moments like light bulb moments
or moments of change or somethingjust shifted for you that had impact?
Mark (21:59):
Yes, certainly.
So I think that there was a. The,the first sort of six sessions or so
I felt were very much as a sort of,in some ways a collective support
network for us all at the time.
It, it was a chance for us to cometogether, share our, our fears, and
actually it, it was in a nice way.
It was reassuring to know I'm not alone.
(22:21):
I'm not the only one having theseproblems, and it helped me focus my mind
more to recognize, okay, we're, we'rein this together a bit and, and there's
others here who are, who I can supportand who are willing to support me as well.
So that was you, you know, that wasa real positive mindset shift through
doing that in that first period then.
(22:41):
And I think then moving on beyondthat, we covered as a group some
very tough and honest topics.
Um, I can remember conversations thatyou sort of offered where you said.
Are there things people want tobring to the table that we can
then focus on going forward?
(23:02):
And for example, I, I remember leadingthe session or sort of asking you to
sort of focus on imposter syndrome.
Julie (23:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (23:08):
Because that's something I, I've struggled with plenty of times throughout
my career and, and my personal life.
And again, through working togetherand sharing with the others in the team
and, and through your sort of guidance.
That realization thatwe all go through this.
Mm-hmm.
And we all have our different techniquesfor dealing with it and, and the
ability to recognize that and talkthrough that has been a real help.
(23:31):
And something I keep reflecting, I.And reminding myself of now and, and
sharing and talking through with othersas well, particularly within my team.
Julie (23:39):
Mm-hmm.
I, I was thinking back actually aboutthat particular session because it
seemed to have quite a profound impacton at least a few of us in that call
and I remember you talking about doI deserve the seat at the table in
some of the meetings that I'm having?
(23:59):
And I think at the time you weregetting involved in a very large
project as well that could have a hugeinfluence on the growth of the business.
And, and I was just sat there listeningto you thinking, oh my gosh, Mark,
you know, I, I had no idea actuallythat you felt like this, and to me,
you so deserve the seat at the table.
(24:19):
So for you to show that vulnerability,I think was really powerful for
everybody else because it made theycould be a bit more courageous and,
and talk about their similar feelings.
Mark (24:31):
Thank you.
No, I've, I really appreciate that and itis, I've, I've, I've shared it with others
at times and again, I've had a similarthat, that sort of surprise and, I am a
confident person, definitely, but I stillstruggle with, with these challenges.
Julie (24:47):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (24:47):
And, and, and there are plenty of times when I still question
should, do I deserve to be here?
Should I be here?
Am I the right person to be here?
You know, do I know what I'm doing?
Julie (24:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (24:58):
But yeah, that's, I, I'd be worried if I wasn't questioning
myself in that regard, to be honest.
Julie (25:03):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I'm just gonna talk briefly about aconversation we had before we started
recording this morning, um, where we'retalking about how business owners or
people who are getting into really seniorcorporate positions often experience some
imposter syndrome around dealing withthe numbers and the financial statements.
(25:24):
And you were telling me a brilliantstory about Richard Branson actually.
Mark (25:28):
Yes.
Yeah.
So.
I listened to, um, Steven Bartlett'spodcast and he had Richard Branson on, uh,
uh, Richard Branson was very honest abouthow he's a very successful businessman,
done multiple, multiple businesses.
And I think something like 20 years intohis career, he was in a board meeting and
they were talking about accounts, and I'mprobably getting this slightly wrong, but
(25:50):
effectively what, what he was saying wasthere was a discussion around turnover.
And he had to ask what turnoverwas because he didn't know.
And so this is a person who's hugelysuccessful, lots of businesses that
have turned massive profits, lotsof finance well into his career,
and yet he doesn't know about thenumbers and the finance at all.
(26:11):
And, and, you know, what are someof the more common accountancy
terms rather than specialist ones.
Julie (26:17):
Thank you.
Um, and, and any othermoments have changed?
I mean, one thing I just wantto reflect on is that, um.
At one point in the later seriesof sessions that we did, we
looked at Belbin team roles.
For people who don't know, it's a kind ofpsychometric test where you can discover
what typical role you take in a team,whether you might be something called a
(26:40):
plant, um, which can be very much aboutbringing lots of ideas or lots of people
have heard the phrase completer finisher.
So somebody who's really good atactually finishing projects, that's
not something I'm so good at.
Um, but I remember you coming out as a,um, coordinator and somebody, I mean,
that role actually tends to be somebodywho is very calm, can take almost a kind
(27:07):
of chairperson role in a situation and,that actually, I mean the, the coaching
term is parallel process because we weretalking about it, but I was seeing it
in action at the same time that, youknow, there, there was one slightly
challenging situation came up and youreally did act like the chairperson and.
You know, just kind of being verycalm and smoothing things and it
(27:31):
was just really interesting to, tosee you take that role, which to me
just shows how much you deserve theseat at many tables that you sit at.
Mark (27:41):
Thank you.
Yes.
Yeah, I was looking back at the,the sort of Belbin work, and it is.
It is something I've done a lot in mylife without necessarily realizing.
And so when we did that work together, itdid bring that realization to the surface.
You know, I look back at sports teamsand I've quite often filled a captain's
role, whether being given the captaincyor actually just defaulting to doing
(28:04):
that, regardless of whether I've, I'vegot the arm, the armband there and it's
something I've, I've developed as a skill.
And worked hard on in termsof my professional career as
well, and recognizing it'ssomething I, I naturally fall to.
Julie (28:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (28:17):
But I still need to do a lot of the work around that, and particularly
on the listening side and recognizingwhen to listen and when to speak.
And I don't always get that right.
But you to give thatopportunity for others to go.
But the, the calmness is, is somethingI've had to work very hard on as well.
Julie (28:34):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think, I think a lotof us who appear to be calm.
Are quite often like swans, kind ofpaddling really fast under the wards.
So is there any other kind of key momentsof change either during um, coaching or,
or outside, you know, often other thingshave a massive influence on us, don't it?
Mark (28:55):
Yes, they do.
Definitely.
I mean, certainly again, justthrough the, the coaching, it's
given me that confidence to, tobuild and grow the business really.
You know, we're now up to a, a teamof eight of us and that's, that's sort
of grown massively within the last twoyears mostly, and the work through the
coaching has been really beneficial forthe whole team because there's, there's
(29:18):
members of the team that maybe didn'tquite understand how others worked or
liked to work or liked to communicate.
And I, I know from having doneparticularly our, our first
sort of wider team session andhaving some discussions with.
With members of the team afterwards, thatsort of light bulb movement came as a
result of doing that, that that coachingwork together because they suddenly
(29:39):
understood a different perspective,or that when someone was interacting
in one fashion that wasn't about them,that was more about how that person.
Communicates or doesn't communicate.
And so it's then thinking, how can we asa team work more effectively together?
Julie (29:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's, it's, it is often just thatopportunity to get to know people a
little bit better and how they liketo communicate and, and who they are,
create such a depth of understanding.
And then we can also adapt ourown behavior a bit, can't we?
In in that respect?
Yeah.
(30:21):
Okay, so, um, at this pointI'm gonna offer you to pick
a question out of the hat.
So I've got a set ofquestions, um, that I would.
Like to offer people, but there'sgonna be an element of surprise here.
So would you like to pick a question?
Mark (30:39):
Oh, we'll go for a lucky dip and see what we have.
Right.
Which career or leadershipmyth would you like to dispel?
That's a really good question.
I, I think what I, what I sortof choose is about the the
leader knows what they're doing.
Julie (31:01):
Mm.
Mark (31:02):
I, I think is a massive one because there, there's a lot of the time you,
you just don't know what you're doing.
But
Julie (31:10):
aren't we all making it up as we go along, really?
Yeah.
Mark (31:13):
It, it is.
It's very much so, I, I think it's, uh,it's having that, that skill to be open
and recognize that, and then think about.
I don't know the answer, but Iknow where to find the answer.
Mm-hmm.
Be that from getting.
assistance, guidance, coaching,to look in a certain area.
(31:34):
But actually most of the time, mostyou, you'll find most leaders don't
necessarily know what they're doing or,or have this clear direction and vision
that they know where they're going.
Julie (31:42):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (31:43):
Um, despite how it might appear from the outside.
Julie (31:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and you're reminding me of, um,another client I was working with
recently who said that the plan iseverything and the plan is nothing.
So as long as you have a plan,then you can just throw it away.
'cause something's always gonnacome up that you're not expecting.
Mark (32:04):
Yeah,
Julie (32:04):
but it gives you probably the confidence to start something, doesn't it?
So, yeah, I like that phrase.
I'm adopting that phrase.
So what, what would you now say tosomebody who's, if you kind of rewind
back to your beginnings setting upArrow, is there any advice that you
would offer to somebody in that position?
Mark (32:26):
Yeah, I, I think the first thing I'd say is, go for it.
Julie (32:28):
Yeah.
Mark (32:29):
Is a hundred percent.
Just go for it.
The, you know, I've, I've a very closefriend of mine, quite often, we, we go
mounting biking and things like that,and we quite often have a phrase of
what's the worst that could happen?
Julie (32:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (32:39):
And yes, you can go into a mindset, you know, particularly if we, you know,
say we're mounted biking, I could falloff and I could break my leg and so on.
But actually the chancesare are pretty slim.
Julie (32:47):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (32:48):
And when you rationalize those thoughts, so again, when,
when you start up a business, what'sthe worst that's going to happen?
It's going to fail.
But as long as you've set yourselfup in a respectful manner.
That you're not putting your, your, youknow, if you've got a family putting
them at undue risk, then that's theworst that can happen is it just doesn't
(33:08):
work out and you go and get a job.
Julie (33:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (33:10):
When, when I started Arrow, I didn't burn any bridges in my previous role and I
was very much of a, if this does not work.
Then I'll just go and apply for a job.
So my first piece of advicewould be to go for it.
And the second is be ambitious,but don't put undue pressure on
yourself when you start a business.
In my experience and from speaking toothers, you don't need all the bells and
(33:32):
whistles and the toys and gadgets again.
You know, most of my first year, myexpenses were basically for a laptop.
For the business and my proffesionalinsurance cover and I was sat in my
effectively garden shed didn't needa certain car or anything like that.
I didn't need certain clothes,gadgets, software, things like that.
Kept it really lean.
(33:53):
And then as I worked, I workedout what was effective and useful.
And actually the most usefulthings for me were advice.
It was accountant, it was experienceof friends, and then in due
time, coaching and, and so on.
And that's actually where I put myresources rather than necessarily
having the new latest technologyor phone or a nice car to impress
(34:15):
certain people or anything like that.
I wanted to impress people with thequality of my work and my advice.
Julie (34:20):
Yeah, that's great.
I really like that and I, I thinkthis whole idea of go for it, I mean.
Exactly what is the worst that can happen?
You're gonna learn so much alongthe way, whatever happens, and
that's brilliant kind of richexperience life experience, isn't it?
So I think, you know, as we said earlier,if you've got some supportive people
(34:41):
around you, that feels really key to me.
Certainly I felt that whenI started up lighting fires.
I'm, and I've continued to have verysupportive clients like yourself and,
and I feel really grateful to have foundthis kind of community of people who
kind of keep pushing me forward too.
Yeah, it's great.
(35:02):
So I guess my final question is,uh, what's, what's next for you?
Mark (35:07):
It's a very good question.
I do have some plans for the future.
At the moment, it's very muchabout building on what we have.
With Arrow.
I've got a fantastic team there.
We've recently launched the,the sort of vision and values
Julie (35:20):
mm-hmm.
Mark (35:21):
With the team that's been really, really well received.
And so my real focus for certainlythe next six months or so is
consolidating that, making surewe as a team are very clear on our
purpose, why we're doing what we'redoing, and how we're doing that, and
then how we're communicating that.
To clients and, and on projects intothe outside world and to really living
Julie (35:44):
mm-hmm.
Mark (35:45):
Within those.
So that's my focus for now.
And then after that, we'll,we'll see what happens.
Julie (35:50):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
So, mark, I'm wondering whether youmight come back and do another interview
at some point in the future and, and wemight be able to reflect on what you've
done, but also potentially we could doa bit of kind of live coaching as well.
That might be interestingfor people to listen to.
Mark (36:09):
Yes, I'd be delighted to.
I'd love to do that.
Julie (36:11):
So is there anything more that you'd like to, to say before we finish?
Mark (36:15):
I'd just like to say thank you for the opportunity today.
It's been brilliant.
Lots of fun talking about this andit's the, the run up to this in
terms of the chance to just thinkback and reflect on, on all of this.
All of this time, really, not just thecareer time, but the last few years
and, and, and what I've been learning.
It's great 'cause you don'talways take time to do that.
So I'm grateful to have had thatopportunity to do that as well.
Julie (36:37):
Yes.
Yeah.
And so we continue tolearn together, don't we?
Mark (36:41):
We do.
Yeah.
Julie (36:42):
It's alright.
Thank you, Mark.
Listening back to my interview withMark, the phrase, no man or person
is an island comes to my mind.
We rarely achieve anything in life onour own, like Olympic athletes who have
a whole team around them of coaches,physios, nutritionists, and the support
(37:05):
and encouragement of family and friends.
Many of us need a teamin some shape or form.
So these are my two toptips for this episode.
The first is to think about mentors.
Sometimes there will be peoplewho very naturally fulfill
these roles in our lives.
(37:27):
They may have already achieved whatyou'd like to achieve, or they may
be successful in another field.
They might have a lot of learningsto impart or introductions to make
or can challenge your thinking.
A really useful book is who is in yourpersonal boardroom by Amanda Scott.
She helps you think about all theimportant roles you may need to support
(37:50):
you in your endeavor and encourages youto have those conversations with people.
My second tip is mapping outyour network of support on paper
or on a digital whiteboard.
Using diagrams, images, symbols,and words to map out the people, the
books, podcasts, perhaps the timesof day that inspire you and any other
(38:16):
activities that help you grow and learnand develop in your role or business.
By mapping these out, you can seewhat are the key foundations, what
can give you momentum to go forward,and also identify potential blockers.
When I learned about this techniqueat Henley Business School, I mapped
(38:37):
out my own business as I was settingit up and the network that I needed.
This had real impact onlighting my own fires.
If you'd like to find out how wecould work together, you can visit
my website, www.lightingfires.co.uk.
(38:58):
Email me at julie@lightingfires.co.Ukor contact me on LinkedIn,
Julie Williams, msc.
If you found this podcast helpful,please leave a five star rating
so others just like you can findme and benefit from these stories.
Thank you for listening tothe Lighting Fires podcast.
(39:22):
I'll be back soon with moreconversations with my wonderful clients
reflecting on their coaching journeys.
Popular Podcasts
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.