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July 8, 2025 33 mins

Host: Julie Williams, MSc – Executive Coach and Founder of Lighting Fires


Guests: Joe & Charlie Jones – Co-Founders of Refreshing, a financial recruitment consultancy based in London

Episode Overview:

In this episode of The Lighting Fires Podcast, Executive Coach Julie Williams speaks with Joe and Charlie Jones, brothers and co-founders of the financial recruitment company Refreshing, about how coaching helped them transform their business, rebuild clarity, and rediscover their purpose.

They share insights about shifting their leadership model, rebranding their business, and massively reducing overheads without losing momentum. With humour, honesty, and real-life examples, they reflect on the power of creating space for strategic thinking and making bold decisions which align with who they really are.

Key Topics in This Episode:

  • How coaching helped clarify business identity and direction

  • The decision to rebrand as Refreshing and what it represents

  • Moving from team management to a leaner, more focused business model

  • The impact of reducing overheads and embracing efficiency

  • Why being yourself is your best competitive advantage in business

  • Creating time for reflection and strategic decision-making

  • The value of honest, creative partnerships — especially between siblings

Coaching Insights & Quotes:

“Before coaching, we were just doing fine—but it was more confusing. Coaching gave us the clarity and confidence to restructure, rebrand, and move forward with purpose.”


“If it gets quiet, that’s when we go incredibly active. Coaching reminds us to always keep moving.”

 

Julie’s Top Coaching Tips from this Episode:

  • Make space to work on the business, not just in it – Don’t wait for the perfect moment. Book regular time to reflect and plan.

  • Rethink growth – Hiring a team isn’t the only way to scale. Reducing overheads and increasing clarity can be even more powerful.

  • Use your strengths – Build your business around what energises you and find partners (or systems) for the rest.

  • Stay active, even when it’s quiet – Build habits around visibility, networking, and momentum.

Resources & Tools Mentioned:

  • Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) – Helped Joe and Charlie understand their different leadership strengths

  • Visual planning tools (e.g. boards, monitors, lists) to prioritise tasks and increase productivity

  • Internal project boards, reflection questions, and space for visualisation

Connect with Julie Williams:

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie (00:03):
So what was happening in the business just before we met and you
decided that you would like some coaching?

Charlie (00:11):
So it was a while back, but it was more chaotic without so much purpose.
I think it's a question of youget in and you work and you are
busy, but we were just doingfine, but it was more confusing.
Mm-hmm.
Less direction.

Joe (00:28):
We were always like.
We need to have something that we cancall on that is a differential for us.
Yeah.
Because otherwise we're just gonna.
Band these thoughts around foreverand they're not gonna do anything.

Julie (00:43):
Welcome to the Lighting Fires Podcast.
I'm Julie Williams and with a master'sdegree in Coaching and Behavioral
Change, 10 years as an executivecoach and many years in corporate
and consultancy organizations, Ibring coaching to people that want
to light fires to evolve and change.
In this episode, I'll be talking toJoe and Charlie Jones of refreshing a

(01:05):
financial recruitment company in London.
We'll talk about the importance of brandand igniting your business, your purpose
and your confidence, the hugely positiveimpact of creating space and time to
work on your role or your business,and essential steps to setting up a
business, including some surprisingadvice about growing a business.

(01:28):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
So welcome to my podcast,Joe and Charlie Jones.
Could you just introduceyourselves, please?

Joe (01:48):
Yeah, sure.
Uh, my name's Joe.
My brief background was I havebeen in sales my whole career.
Post Uni I was working in a smallerbusiness and then big corporate recruiter
until 2013 when we launched Refreshing.

Charlie (02:05):
And I'm Charlie, the slightly younger brother.
My route was very different coming throughPWC and finance, and then I worked in
the city for a while before we put ourheads together and launched Refreshing,
coming from very different backgrounds.
But that was kind of the reason we did it.

Julie (02:24):
Okay.
and, and maybe you could tell us a bitabout what, what are your strengths
that you both bring to the business?
'cause you're, you're very different,but also you have this brilliant,
brotherly dynamic that makes a difference.

Joe (02:36):
I think the, the strength is probably our difference.
We did the um, Myers-Briggs years ago andwe came at completely opposite ends of it
as far as where we were personality wise.
And it is quite stark like that.
So.
I'm very much more on the kind ofextrovert side of sales and going
out, and I have no qualms aboutsitting and having lunch with
someone that I've never met before.

(02:57):
But there, there's loads ofthings that Charlie does in the
business that I would hate to do.
Like all of the sort of contractadmin, getting the website set
up, doing those types of things.
I, that's not me.
Whereas that's right up Charlie's street.
I mean, if you think of astereotypical salesperson and a
stereotypical accountant, that'sreally where we're coming from.
Yeah.
I think we've assimilated welland we do a similar role now.

(03:18):
But that really is a quite a goodexample of how extreme ends of the, of
the sort of social scale we could be at.
Yeah, and I think it it, that's one ofthe reasons why it works is that we're not
stepping on each other's toes very much.
We kind of know our place.
We know that Charlie's much more ofthe sort of organiser, the MD of it.

(03:39):
Whereas I'm more on the sort of salesside of things and sort of pushing the
boundaries a bit, I suppose, like seewhere things might be on that front.
But yeah, people ask us quiteoften like, how'd you work
with your brother for 13 years?
And I think that the, the main thingis, is that we just don't have any
issues because we're so different.
It's not, we're not on each other's case.

Julie (03:57):
But what I find really interesting about this dynamic of your relationship
is that I, I think it probably doeswork because you're brothers and you can
really say what you think to one another.
There's no holes barred is there.
You can be really honest and directwith each other and there's always
a lot of humour and you know.
We have a good laugh when we'retogether as well because you've

(04:21):
both got a good sense of fun.
And I think that that is probably abig part, that there is no difficult
dynamic there, which can sometimescome with other business partners.

Charlie (04:32):
Yeah.
You've gotta keep each other on their toesby pulling them up and joking about stuff.

Julie (04:36):
Yeah,

Charlie (04:36):
you do,

Joe (04:36):
but you can't let things you, you have to let things go if, like,
you also learn over the years that Iknow that if I was to say that that
was gonna, that would wind him up.
So you hold back from saying that, butyou don't, you don't on other things.

Charlie (04:50):
I'm wondering what you're thinking now.

Joe (04:52):
No, you do.
You just get to know, don't you?
And you just get, you get used to itand you make calls on, on that basis.
So I think the other thingas well is you let things go.
Like, oh, you could have like a,a difficult conversation about
something one day and the nextmorning it's like it never happened.
Like, yeah, you just don't,you don't dwell on stuff.
There's no point in doing that.
And I, I think it's interesting how.
You work together on, on lots of things,but lots of your work is still separate.

Julie (05:16):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (05:16):
You know, we manage different clients, we have
different jobs that we fill.
Yeah.
And I think leading intocoaching, probably one of the
really useful things is actually.
Getting us in the same placeaway from what we're doing and
enforcing that to joke about things.

Joe (05:30):
We deliberately don't face each other in the office because
there's, there's an unnecessarylevel of intensity when you do that.
But then if we need to talk, we justturn around to talk to each other.
So I think Yeah, exactly as that.
I mean, we wanted to get.
In some coaching because it gives us theopportunity to make sure that we talk each
month rather than just get on with stuff.

Julie (05:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I think it's that classiccreating space and time to talk
about the business, even on thebusiest days and the busiest weeks.
Yeah.
It makes you absolutely prioritize.

Charlie (06:00):
Well, yeah, we, we, when we try and say, we'll, we'll
meet and we'll go through stuff.
We turn around talk.
Probably five minutes max.
We found a reason to go back tothe computers and, or pick up the
phone and, um, yeah, it's hard.
This is an enforced time.

Julie (06:16):
Yeah.

Charlie (06:16):
To do it When without fail, we come out more motivated
because we've talked through things.
But normally we, for us, the main benefit,I, we've probably come out with lists
of things that we're then focusing on.
Which we wouldn't have put together.
Yeah.
If we just cracked on as normal.
'cause you kind of think you'rebusy, but you don't take that
time to prioritise stuff.

Joe (06:35):
Yeah.
I mean, I used to, this is what, what Ifelt like I was missing from my previous
career was that what I would alwaysdo, I, I used to be, I used to manage
a big team and then I would go to themanagement meeting at the end of each
month and I would go there and comeout with an a four piece of paper with
a list of things to do, and then I'llcrack on over the month doing them.
And what I found.

(06:56):
When we were doing things together,as we were just getting on the
stuff, we didn't have that list.
We didn't have the listof things to go through.
So then sort of improve thebusiness or take the business
forward and do things like that,which I think massively changed.
Yeah.
You think you're too busy to take thetime out to do it, so you don't do it and
you don't realize the benefits of takingthat time and you do have time for it.

(07:18):
Yeah.
You just need it enforcedand you need to sit and give
space and talk through things.
Mm-hmm.

Julie (07:23):
Yeah.
And, and I remember a few timeswhat I think has been useful is
that you said that if, if there'sa moment where you have got a bit
of quiet time, you've immediatelygot a list of actions to go to.
Yeah.
You, you've got your project plan,you know what you wanna get on with.
It's very straightforwardto get on with that.
So coming back to the, the reasonswhy you came to coaching then.

(07:44):
So what was happening in the businessjust before we met and you decided
that you would like some coaching?

Joe (07:51):
So it was a while back, but it was more
chaotic without so much purpose.

Charlie (08:00):
I think it's a question of you get in and you work and you
are busy, but there are a lot ofdifferences to the business today from
the name of the business.
We've changed over the time, we'vechanged the way we employ or not
employ people, our fees have changedand that's been a, a way that we
stand out and I think it's constantlygiven us far more brand identity.

Julie (08:22):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (08:23):
Because we constantly pulled back to be thinking about that.
Before we were just doing fine,but it was more confusing.
Mm. Less direction.

Joe (08:33):
Yeah, I think if I can remember what the thing that, and this might
have been, what triggered it wasthat we were always like, we need to
have something that we can call on.
That is a differential for us.

Charlie (08:44):
Yeah.

Joe (08:45):
And we don't just wanna be another recruiter, but we couldn't put our
fingers on exactly what that was,what it was, or what it was, how we
phrased it, or whatever that might be.
And I think that at thatpoint we kept having that
conversation over and over again.
And then we thought, well maybe weactually need, someone's help us do that.

Julie (08:59):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (09:00):
'cause otherwise we're just gonna band these thoughts around forever
and they're not gonna do anything.

Julie (09:04):
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
So let, let's get into some ofthe, the coaching topics and some
of the moments that were reallyuseful or shifted things for you.
What would you say are kind of, standoutmemories and, and I should say that
we've been working together since2018 and we continue to do so, which
as a coach is quite unusual actually.

(09:25):
You tend to kind of work with peoplefor a period of time, maybe kind of
six months, a year, two years, but Ithink your business is co constantly
evolving and so it has felt likethe right thing to do to continue.

Charlie (09:40):
Well, we have, we've always, we always want to be better.

Julie (09:43):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (09:44):
And.
Position better and work more efficientlyand, you know, ultimately make more money.
That's what businesses are for.
Um, I think the, the firstmajor thing, what was, was
the brand and the name change?

Joe (09:57):
Yeah.

Charlie (09:57):
So we, it's we're called Refreshing now, we were
originally called Orleans House.
When we set up, that was a namethat it has some local relevance to
where we are in London, but it wasa name, just for a name that sounds
kind of neutral and, and, okay.
And we spent, oh, quite a while, probablya couple of years, trying to move names.

(10:20):
There were restrictions on usingrefreshing that we, we came through,
you know, with trademarks and um,domain names and all this sort of stuff.
And then we used these sessions,I think in those times to clarify
what it meant and why refreshing.
'cause it's a bit of an unusual wordfor a company, but we work through that.

(10:40):
I think really to, to decide thatrefreshing in our industry is, is being
normal and straightforward and and honest.
And that is our brand.
You know, we're very much out therewith people, we're very much meeting
phoning people and I think by takingthose sessions to, to talk through that.
I think it was probably the first majorchange and probably the most important

(11:04):
. Joe: Yeah, one of two I'd say.
I'd say everything was a bit confused.
We had a brand that we didn't reallylike, people couldn't remember.
It could, people didn't have any relevanceto anything that we wanted to change,
and we also had staff and nothing againstanyone that worked here, they were great
people, but it just wasn't right for us.
We were not doing what we wereskilled at doing because we

(11:27):
were constantly helping with themanagement and training of people.
We were working on people that havepotential rather than experience that
were ready to go and get us work.
Now, I personally, I'm not someone thatparticularly likes managing people.
I'd done it and I probably quite badlyburned by having quite a big team at
one point, and it was just a lot ofstress thinking about other people.

(11:49):
Whereas what we found is that,well, a couple of things.
Firstly, both of those decisionschanging the brand and and removing
the people to go back down to the twoof us just made everything so much
clearer and cleaner, and that in turnreleased a lot of stress and pressure.

Julie (12:04):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (12:05):
And allowed us to then concentrate on building the
brand whilst having enough time.
And actually what we did find wasthat our capacity was huge compared
to what we thought it might be bydoing it together, by working on
processes and doing certain things.
So I think if we hadn't changedthe name and if we still had
staff, we, I could go so far, saywe might not even exist anymore.

Julie (12:23):
Yeah.

Joe (12:23):
Because it was.
That draining all round, likeemotionally, actual day to day.

Julie (12:30):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (12:30):
So, yeah, it was, those are two really good decisions that we stand by.

Charlie (12:33):
I think the, the sessions probably gave us
enough confidence to do that.

Julie (12:37):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (12:37):
Yeah, and I think timing wise, I think it was not long after
we returned to just us that we gota big contract with Ralph Lauren to
move their finance team to the UK.

Joe (12:47):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (12:48):
About 40 finance positions.

Joe (12:50):
Yeah.
That we filled in six weeks.
Maybe

Julie (12:53):
That's amazing.

Joe (12:53):
Uh, with, with really most, the bulk of all of that, just ourselves and we
are well capable of doing that and theway it was set up and the people we know.
So that was good timing and kindof gave us the confidence after
that to just crack on as we are.

Julie (13:08):
Yeah, and and it massively brought down your overhead.

Joe (13:12):
Oh, oh, huge.
Yeah.
I mean, and the stress of overheads is,is, is considerable as a small business
and I, I would, I'd say to anyone thatwas starting, keep 'em as low as possible.

Julie (13:23):
Yeah.

Joe (13:24):
Because then you've got room to grow.
But, but the stress numbers of justlooking at salaries going out each
month, then you add employers, nationalinsurance, national insurance, and
then you're starting to think, myGod, we need, we're so far behind.
Before the months even started it,it was a very good decision to do it.

Julie (13:38):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I was trying to, somebody else inmy network yesterday, uh, another ex
client who, um, has done somethingsimilar to you and he was saying how.
We are both discussing how weassume that our businesses need
to grow in that way, and that weneed to add people and have a team.
Yeah.
But we probably underestimatethe enormous impact that has

(14:01):
on the, on stress and pressure.

Charlie (14:03):
Yeah.

Julie (14:03):
And actually maybe those assumptions aren't really that helpful.
Um, so it sounds like,

Joe (14:08):
well, you do you see some examples of, oh, growing business,
we went from this headcount tothat headcount and you know.
I really liked everyone that workedhere, and there were times it would
be great to have more people, but justthe day to day coaching and instructing
and reviewing takes up a lot of time.
And our strengths in asmall business is ourselves.

Julie (14:30):
Yeah.

Joe (14:30):
And consulting at senior level in finance.

Julie (14:34):
Yeah.

Joe (14:34):
That's what we should be doing.
So we definitely benefited from.
Going through that and gettingthe confidence to do it.

Julie (14:40):
Mm mm

Joe (14:41):
And it's helped us think about the future as well in the sense
that we want to work towards thefuture with the assumption that
we're not gonna be hiring people.

Julie (14:49):
Yeah.

Joe (14:51):
And I think that that's really given us some clarity in how to do that.
And we've got some really goodplans ahead that involve us
taking things to the next level.

Charlie (14:59):
And not hiring other people, hiring other, but by, yeah, combining
potentially with people in a certain way.
So that's exciting.
And far more suits us.

Julie (15:08):
Yeah,

Charlie (15:08):
yeah, yeah.
We don't wanna be sitting here with 15employees and juniors and hierarchies
and sales cold calls and stuff.
It's not what we're best at.

Julie (15:18):
No, because you are refreshing and you do things in your own way.

Charlie (15:22):
Exactly.

Joe (15:23):
Nailed it.
Yeah.

Julie (15:28):
Are you feeling stuck and need some help moving forward at lighting fires?
I work with business leaders, futureleaders, and their teams to ignite
their full leadership potential.
Whether you're a business owneror leading in an organisation,
we can work together to create aprogram tailored to your priorities.

(15:48):
Throughout our coaching together, I seemy clients' confidence and capabilities
grow as they gain a greater understandingof how they work, learn to make quicker
decisions and develop a vision for theirrole, and a plan on how to get there.
Through the challenges andthe breakthroughs, you'll
have me by your side.

(16:09):
Get in touch on LinkedIn or emailme julie@lightingfires.co uk.
Okay, so, so what more has happenedin the coaching that's been useful?
Or are there moments that you recollectthat In the coaching world, we call
them critical moments where somethingreally shifted or changed or, perhaps

(16:33):
there's something that's happenedoutside of the coaching that's also
had a big impact on your business.

Joe (16:38):
We did a little bit at the time, I think, for a period where
we incorporated outside life.

Julie (16:43):
Hmm.

Joe (16:44):
Which I think was good.
I mean, both Charlie and I in thisprocess have moved houses and we've got
growing families and that we needed toput some attention on the outside life
as well because there, there were outsidestresses and strains that were getting
both of us, I think at times, and thatthat's, that made a big difference.
I think the, the two we talked aboutbefore were the two major ones, but

(17:06):
I, I mean I, if you count those asmajor ones, there's probably being
five or six every month that youwould say have made differences.
But it's just a case of there, there'vebeen some that started and stops and
we've tried KPIs quite a few timesand they, they've come in and come out
and we we're still tweaking them now.
But the key thing is for me.
Is I want a list in front of me.

(17:28):
If I don't have a list in front ofme of things to do, I procrastinate
and I think I, I just spend timethinking about what I might do,
whereas I've, I just want that list.

Julie (17:37):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (17:38):
I'm much better off just delivering from, from a list.

Charlie (17:41):
Yeah.
We've tried a lot of differentthings over the, over the years.

Julie (17:45):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (17:45):
Which I think is a good thing because if you say everything's fine and
done, then your kind of ambition's gone.

Julie (17:50):
Mm-hmm.

Charlie (17:50):
So we've had.
Different initiatives,things we try with the lists.
Joe's quite visual.

Julie (17:55):
Mm,

Charlie (17:56):
yeah.
I'm less so.
So we've had countless iterations ofboards on the walls, screens, all of
that sort of stuff, which works for timeand then maybe not, but that's fine.
It's about getting through stuff andI think coming out of our sessions
with that list, whether it's on awall or a board or on a bit of paper,

Julie (18:16):
yeah.

Charlie (18:16):
Is just a huge help.
I mean,

Joe (18:18):
and it takes time to get everything sorted.
I mean, we are still, we've gonefrom one monitor to two monitors.
I've now got three monitors and I can'timagine going back from three like
that makes a huge difference for me.
Charlie's still on two,seems to be fine with that.
So again, a differential.
We've tried different softwares of whichwe seem to have landed quite well at
the minute we think on what we're using.

(18:40):
We used to have work phones.
We don't have them anymore.
But yeah, it used tobe quite plain in here.
Now it's like a forest, jungle of plants.

Julie (18:48):
Yeah.

Joe (18:48):
And things if we like and that that helps you.

Julie (18:51):
Wall of plants.

Joe (18:52):
Yeah.
We're turning the upstairspart of the office into a gym.

Julie (18:56):
Yeah.

Joe (18:56):
Or uh the workout zone so that we can make sure that
that's incorporated on our day.

Julie (19:02):
That's been a big focus on processes and be becoming more efficient.

Joe (19:05):
Yeah,

Julie (19:05):
and that's felt like quite a long term piece of work.

Joe (19:08):
Yes.

Julie (19:08):
That every month that has, it's been incremental changes.
And I've also noticed, I thinksomething that really stands out for
me with with the pair of you is that.
You have this brilliant, positivemental attitude and you're
brilliant problem solvers.
So no problem ever feelstoo big or too scary.

(19:29):
You're really good at breaking it down.

Charlie (19:30):
Yeah, I, I can definitely say in support of the work you do, we're always
so much more positive after a session.
Like gen, you can tell even from whenwe first start talking at the beginning

Joe (19:40):
Yeah.

Charlie (19:40):
Compared to the end.
Definitely.
And I know, you know techniqueswhere, how confident do you
feel about it at the start?
And then we look at the scale againof 10, you know, you, you can see
that's a, a coaching technique, butthe number always, always much higher.

Julie (19:53):
Yeah.

Charlie (19:53):
Know.
How would you feel visualising.
How it would be.
And we always, you know, we come outwith, I've got lists right, right
over there of things we've discussedrecently we're keen to put into action.
I'm motivated and we justwould not have done that.

Julie (20:08):
Yeah.

Charlie (20:09):
This morning, yesterday, whenever you meet, you know, we would've
carried on with just what we were doing.
So that visualisation is really good.
And the positivity is definitelyat a high when you come out.

Julie (20:21):
Yeah.

Joe (20:22):
Well, I think as well as that probably if we were to assess one area
that we're, we're pretty good at, istaking on a lot of different things at
once and that probably motivates us and weare less motivated when that starts to to
drain into sort of just one or two things.
'cause I think that one thing we've alwayskept on top of is making sure that our

(20:43):
equipment around us and our processesaround us allow us to work at high speed.
So, extra monitors what you work quicker.
Like both of us hateworking at home on a laptop.
It's just almost impossible fromwhat for what we do, because of how
much we've set hit things up here.
We've got the, the best phonesystems that we can enable us with.
So I think that the, these, thesesessions allow us to pour additional

(21:06):
work into the pot, which we want.

Julie (21:08):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (21:08):
Because then we'll work a way to find out how to make it
work, and then that could increaseour capacity again a little bit.
And I think that, that,that's where, where I think
it works quite well, is that.
Certainly from my perspective, I'mterrible when I don't have much to do.

Julie (21:21):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (21:21):
Because I just find other things to do, or, or then the
three monitors become a problem.
'cause you start putting stuff on themthat you shouldn't be putting on them,
like Twitter and stuff like that.
But gimme a list of things that I'vegotta crack on with a particular
timeframe and, and I'll, and I'll do it.

Charlie (21:33):
It's a good combination of improving your process efficiency and
then pouring into that stretch targetsbecause half of what you're doing
is creating time and the other halfis filling that time with even more
stuff, but stuff you want to be doing.

Julie (21:51):
Yeah.

Charlie (21:51):
And that's probably what we're pretty good at.

Julie (21:54):
Mm.

Charlie (21:54):
Um, we're using technology where we can, but not the expensive real stuff.
We do 50 events a year, gettingout, meeting people, lunches,
breakfast or sort of stuff.
And we don't find that a particularlydifficult thing to arrange and
do because of how we do it.
And I think talking through that isprobably how we've got to that point.

Julie (22:14):
Yeah.

Joe (22:15):
Yeah, definitely.
It's really good to beheld to account stuff.

Julie (22:18):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (22:19):
And I know that you're not gonna tell us off if we don't do it, but it
is on in our mind that we've committedto doing this in this particular month.
And it is.
It is just a different person.
I also think that there's a bitabout dynamics that are quite tricky.
I mean, we used to use the dynamicof the two of us and we, before you,
we'd bring our dad in who's an ex CFO,and that was just a terrible dynamic

(22:39):
because it was the three of us whowere all invested in the same thing.
Three always means two gang up onone and it never works, and it,

Julie (22:45):
mm-hmm.

Joe (22:45):
It's better, so much better to have someone independent working
with us because then it, it isjust the dynamics a lot better.

Julie (22:51):
Yeah, absolutely neutral in the dynamics.
Yeah, and I think going back to thatpoint about being busy and cracking
on with things, it's the old adage,you know, if you want something
done, give it to a busy person.
And even as a coach, I still reallyvalue being coached by other people.
In fact, it's really important to continueexperiencing coaching when you're a coach.
And I just love coming out of coachingsessions and having a real clear focus on

(23:16):
like, this is what I've gotta get done.
This is my list of things to do.
It really creates a lot of energyand motivation doesn't, doesn't it?
So, yeah.

Charlie (23:24):
Mm-hmm.

Julie (23:28):
At this point in the podcast, I'm going to ask one
of the optional questions.

Joe (23:33):
Oh, right.

Julie (23:34):
Which today I've brought a little envelope.
So who would like to do thehonors of picking the question?

Charlie (23:40):
You go first.

Julie (23:41):
Yeah,

Joe (23:41):
right.
What do I do?
I read it out.

Julie (23:42):
So yeah, you just pick it and then you read it out.

Joe (23:46):
Just the biggest f up that we've had so far.

Julie (23:49):
Yeah.
What's your biggest,

Joe (23:51):
uh,

Julie (23:51):
thing you've screwed up in business along the way?

Joe (23:55):
I'd probably say it was, it was extending our overheads too much.
I. I think we let them get away withus way too much too, too quickly.
We probably had a bit of that egothing of like, I need to have a team.

Charlie (24:07):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (24:07):
Yeah.
We're a recruitment company.
We are.
We are this business that needsto have people and this then
that, and then when people askyou how many people you got, you.
You say, I've got six people workingfor me, and that sounds good good.
And actually suddenlythe overhead's got scary.
Scary quick.

Julie (24:23):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (24:23):
And you've got people that hadn't made any money for you, and they've
been there for six months and theyhave got the potential to, but that
six months has cost you 50 grand.
all rolled up and you're like, hold on.
Yeah.
Oh.
There was also one business for MessUp where we lost 50 grand on a client.
Because they basically hid from usthat they were going under and it just,

(24:44):
and held back interim payments anduh, to, we had the finance director
in there who was being lied to, but weprobably let it go a little bit too long

Charlie (24:53):
Possibly.
I was trying, is that our fault?
Maybe.

Joe (24:56):
Maybe.
But yeah, it might not be.

Charlie (24:57):
I was trying to think of more short term ones as well.
It's quite hard.
I mean, you, the odd.
You know, candidate surprisesyou at the last minute when they
pull out or something like that.
Yeah.
But that's, that's pretty normal.
I don't think we've had a lot of that.
I can't really think of anything toomajor in a, you know, a split second.
Yeah.
But yeah, I think that's a good one.

Julie (25:16):
Okay.
Um, um, what would be your advice tosomebody setting up a, a business?
Presumably it's keep your costs low.

Charlie (25:25):
Yeah.

Julie (25:25):
Would be a starting point.

Joe (25:27):
Yeah.
I would say.
If you don't have someone in thebusiness like Charlie, when, what I
mean by that is contracts, website,

Julie (25:38):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (25:39):
Legalities, getting stuff set up with the relevant boards, payroll,
insurance, anything along those lines.
Systems, getting systems set up,like I could probably do them.
I would hate it.

Julie (25:51):
Yeah.

Joe (25:52):
I can sell recruitment and I can go into recruitment.
I can do recruitment as can Charlie.
I can't do the other bits.
And if you can't do those other bits,and if you don't want to do them
or if they'll take up all of yourtime, then you can't set a business
up because you cannot make it work.
It, it is so time consuming.
You, you need both.
And so if you happen to haveboth yourself, then great.

(26:13):
You can do it.
Or you need two people that can do

Charlie (26:16):
or, or look for external support.

Julie (26:18):
Yeah.

Joe (26:18):
Yeah.

Charlie (26:18):
Just to make sure those boxes are covered.
If you go straight out and do what you dowithout making sure you're set up properly

Julie (26:25):
mm-hmm.

Charlie (26:26):
Then that could be a problem.
And I, the other advice I wouldsay would be to kind of the
opposite as well, to be present,like speak to people, be yourself.
Don't say, oh I'm, I'm setting up abusiness, I'm at my computer and I'm doing
this and I'm emailing, I'm doing that.
Go straight out and And meetpeople and talk to people.

Julie (26:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really important.
That's something I learnedsetting up my own business.
As somebody once said to me, whenyou first set up your coaching
business, you're gonna have to spendat least 50% of your time Networking.

Joe (26:56):
Yeah.

Julie (26:56):
And meeting people.
Yeah.
And I was gobsmacked.

Joe (26:59):
Yeah.

Julie (26:59):
And.
He was absolutely right.
You've got to meet people,get out there and and get some
feedback on your offerings.
I definitely assumed that I would beoffering certain types of coaching
to certain people, and as I createdthese packages and tested them out,
I got some brilliant feedback andended up doing some quite different

(27:21):
things than what I had expected.

Joe (27:23):
I think.
I think being.
Constantly very active is so important.

Julie (27:28):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (27:28):
I know of agents who've gone out and then they've got a couple of really
big clients and they've just sat thereand they've let them fe and they fed
on them, and they fed on them, and thenthey phone me and they'll be like, what?
How's everything going?
I'm screwed.
I haven't got any work.

Julie (27:41):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (27:41):
We're like, you need to work all the time.
And like, so Charlie and Ihave, we, we have a view that.
If it gets quiet, that's when wego incredibly active and get out in
front of people as much as possible.
'cause you've gotta dri drill up the workand it takes time and it takes energy
and this, so you might meet someonewho doesn't give any work for a year.

Julie (28:01):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (28:02):
But.
You can't just sit behind yourcomputer, can't just sit in your office

Julie (28:05):
That isn't gonna happen Is it if you just sit behind your computer?

Joe (28:09):
No, and also, I mean, from my perspective, from being in the
bigger recruiters and working, ifI was gonna start a recruitment
business, what I wouldn't do is goand just replicate with one I was
in, which I think a lot of people do.
They take the same KPIs out, theytry and create themselves a smaller
version of the bigger business.
That's not, you're not gonna win.
Like, because the the bigger businessis already there and it already does
it with more people and more, butyou have to do something different.

Julie (28:30):
and they've got massive marketing budgets.

Joe (28:32):
Yeah,

Julie (28:32):
yeah.

Joe (28:32):
You've got, you've gotta have a different, and, and that, and often that
can just be a, a personality trend that,that you, that you take to the market
that like we, we have deliberately calledourselves refreshing because we don't
want to be the shiny shoe recruiterthat walks around town and tries to drum
up business through sales and the, thetype of person that's on the Apprentice.

(28:54):
We want to do it a lotmore personal approach.
So we are consistent with that approach.

Julie (28:58):
Yeah.

Joe (28:58):
Also, I would, I would think about that at the outset is.
What do you want to represent differently?
And is that, are you fakingit or is that actually you?
Like, because we could be faking apersonality, you can't keep that up.
You've got to just be yourself.
Yeah.
Or you've gotta have a, a differentialthat you sit behind your back, but.

(29:19):
I mean, I, I wouldn't just goout and replicate something else.

Julie (29:23):
No, and if you're not being yourself, it'll leak out fairly quickly.
People will pick up on that.
Yeah.

Joe (29:28):
Oh yeah,

Julie (29:28):
definitely.
Definitely.
No shiny shoes in the room.

Joe (29:32):
Nope.

Julie (29:32):
Today.
No.
I've never seen you in a suit.

Charlie (29:35):
Two pairs of Nike Air Max.

Joe (29:37):
Yeah, I'm wearing shorts

Julie (29:37):
usually, your Refreshing group fleeces and shorts.
Yeah.

Joe (29:41):
Yeah.

Julie (29:42):
Great.
So my last question is,what is next for refreshing?

Charlie (29:48):
Well, more of the same, but better.
Is that a bad answer?

Julie (29:52):
No.

Charlie (29:52):
We like what we do and who our company has become.
We want to, to grow.
We, we have some ideas of how that'sgonna happen, not quite able to share,
watch this space and all of that.
Yeah.
We, we meet a lot of people.
We have good clients.
Just, we just want more of that.
Yeah.

Joe (30:12):
We've spent a long time creating a really good, sustainable business
that could last for a long time.
As it is alongside it.
We've created quite a big networkof very impressive people.

Julie (30:23):
Mm.

Joe (30:23):
And I think the future will be integrating that even more to
create a business that's even bigger.

Julie (30:30):
Mm.

Joe (30:31):
And I think that that could be done through lots of different means,
but it's not just a lifestyle business.
It has been a lifestyle business, butit's been built with the view that it can
be dialed up to something a lot bigger.
So a lot of those people in ournetwork we're hoping will be using
us more and more over the yearsso that we can then implement the
plans that we can't talk about for.

Julie (30:51):
Mm-hmm.

Joe (30:51):
There's a lot more to come.

Julie (30:52):
Yeah.

Joe (30:53):
We've got another decade in this at least.

Julie (30:55):
Yeah, I totally believe that.
And I must say, I find youreally inspiring to work with.
I come out of our sessionsfeeling inspired to make changes
in my own business or to.
You know, sometimes when we dothe more personal coaching, I'm
thinking about my own kind of goalsaround my exercise and fitness.

Charlie (31:13):
Yeah.

Julie (31:13):
Or, you know, whatever it is, it, it brings me up and
gives me lots of energy too.
So it's quite contagious.

Charlie (31:20):
Yeah.
That's on, that's how we feel, Yeah.
Yeah.
And the odd TV recommendation theateror something, it's always good in that.

Julie (31:27):
Definitely.
So is there, is there anythingmore that you'd like to talk about?
If

Joe (31:31):
If someone's on their own in an office and they're
thinking, what do I do next?
I think you do need someone else tohelp you do that and work that out.

Charlie (31:37):
Me too.
I think at at times.
The things we talk through andthe way it's done, add loads.
But at times you can almost just sitthere and not speak and somehow it, it
gives us that space to work through thingsand even that is incredibly valuable.
Yeah.

Julie (31:54):
Thank you.
So, um, if anybody's looking todo some financial recruitment,
how do they get in touch with you?

Joe (32:00):
Joe or charlie@refreshing.com is the best way to get hold of us.
If you're hiring between 50 and200 k, we've got you covered.
We've got a. Enormous network thatwe've built over the last 13 years, so,

Julie (32:12):
okay.
Fantastic.
Thank you very much.

Joe (32:14):
Thank you very much.

Julie (32:19):
As I listen back to this episode, I'm reflecting on the
importance of spending time onyour business or on your role.
If you don't have a coach, find atrusted friend or a business friend,
someone who's in a similar situationto you, and schedule monthly meetings.
Have an agenda and work throughkey topics and decisions.
Then swiftly implement so youcan review success next month.

(32:43):
You can plan together, discuss newideas and work through complex issues.
It needs to balance accountability,encouragement, and challenge,
and probably plenty of coffee.
My second top tip is if you run yourown business, don't be afraid to make
structural changes to your business.
Ask yourself, is your equipmentand software saving you time?

(33:06):
Are your processes and systemsefficient and serving you well?
What business costs could you cut?
Do you have the right people or structure?
Joe and Charlie cut their overheadsby 70% by making a courageous decision
that was well thought through, andthey continue to make small incremental
changes, which really continuesto power their business forward.

(33:32):
If you'd like to find out how wecould work together, you can visit
my website, www.lighting fires.co uk.
Email me@julietlightingfires.co.ukor contact me on LinkedIn,
Julie Williams msc.
If you found this podcast helpful,please leave a five star rating

(33:55):
so others just like you can findme and benefit from these stories.
I hope you enjoyed this episode andI look forward to you joining me next
time on the Lighting Fires Podcast.
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