October 30, 2024 • 42 mins
What does it mean to be 'good at PE'? Who would your students point to in their class as being the 'best at PE' and why?
PE has long been a great part of school life for SOME students. For others, there is long standing evidence that it can be at best, unpleasant and at worst, traumatic. Minoritised groups remain under-represented and under-served in all forms of physical activity provision.
This webinar will consist of a short, thought-provoking presentation, followed by an open mic conversation. We will explore how we can make sure we shift to being solution focussed rather than perpetuating the problem.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
One, two, three, four!
(00:07):
So, I'm going to start by asking this question, think of the students you teach and who is
good at PE and also who would other students say is good at PE and why would they say that?
(00:36):
What are the attributes?
Is that the right word?
Are we comfortable with the word attribute?
What are the characteristics?
What are the qualities on display that makes them good at PE?
Yeah, absolutely.
Sorry, Greg, I'm going to jump in right here.
(00:57):
I also think about it from a different frame which is when I'm talking to teachers in my
building, they automatically put these assumptions toward me.
You know, oh, you've got that kid.
I bet that kid's really good at your class.
I know that kid has an A, it dives into grading and all those conversations as well.
(01:20):
But again, it's like these assumptions that we make that because a kid is athletic or
participates in organized sport that automatically we have created a hierarchy of who is good
at PE, who PE is designed for, and that creates a really potentially harmful situation for
(01:43):
some kids.
So, I just wanted to throw in that idea of how even teachers and administrators in the
building also perpetuate some of these things.
Well, all stakeholders, right?
So, and you know, almost, I think it's safe to say pretty much all parents have been to
school.
So they've got an opinion on this and that opinion has been shaped, has been constructed
(02:07):
by so many different things.
And one of the things that I really want to focus on today is our heart, our role.
We are active agents in this whole narrative, in the whole story, and how do we use that
agency to achieve the things that we say that we value?
Okay.
(02:29):
So opening question.
And I like to keep coming back to just these reminders.
The last two weeks, we've used the Mikhail Quinishsted quote that the only sustainable
goal of PE is that young people want to do more PE or physical activity.
This is a quote that I've hung pretty much all my work from, that a physically educated
(02:55):
person should be defined as those who have learned to arrange their lives in such a way
that physical activities, they freely engage in, make a distinctive contribution to their
long-term flourishing.
And that's a guy called McAllister.
And of course, that really speaks to the new shape standard for it.
(03:17):
Shape standard for that we're going to come on to here.
There is an orange and the full award in, I've put that as a sort of summary.
I hope I haven't taken liberties with it.
The full award in is young people choose to be physically active.
Okay.
So with, I've reminded ourselves of the standards here because what does it mean to be good
(03:40):
or to show progress in those standards?
So are we saying that if we take standard one, that if you're good within that domain,
that means you move well, you move skillfully, or does it mean you move better than you moved
(04:01):
previously?
And for what reason?
So does it mean you're the best mover or you're a better mover?
The two is no applying knowledge and understanding within an activity framework, whether that
be a formal or an informal activity.
Does that mean that you know the most and you can apply the most or that you know more
(04:26):
and can apply more understanding than you did previously?
Similarly standard three, developing social skills.
I have, are we talking about young people who are good because they've got high level
social skills or they've got better social skills than they had previously?
So one would be personal reference, showing personal progress, and the other would be normative
(04:50):
reference, better than other people.
I'm always really fascinated though, and I'm going to put this in here at this point.
And I guess this is the controversial bit.
So if we have a relatively short amount of time over a semester to support young people
(05:12):
developers, movers to apply knowledge and understanding and to develop social skills,
it's always really difficult to know, is there a causation or is there a correlation?
In other words, are those improved social skills because of what they learn with us?
Or are they social skills that the young person is bringing with them into class?
(05:35):
Similarly are their movement skills already well established?
How much progress have they made in that?
Or are we saying they move really well at the start of the unit?
They move similarly well at the end of the unit, i.e. they haven't got worse, but we're
not really sure that they've got better and that we're not really sure that they've learned
to move better as a result of my teaching.
(05:58):
They just move well and that's probably based on their prior experience.
And that prior experience is probably not always, probably based on a range of privileges
that they have access to.
It might be familiar support, it might be financial support, it could be a whole range
(06:18):
of things.
And I just really want to clarify, I'm not necessarily always talking about privilege
in the sense of socioeconomic privilege.
Access to space, access to love, access to care, access to support can be prevalent across
all socioeconomic groupings and none.
And we've been joined by Mike Chamberlain.
(06:41):
So I'm letting Mike in.
While you're letting him in, I'll jump in because I and Caitlin has been in one of my
sessions before and maybe has heard me tell this story about privilege, but my daughter
in kindergarten won the PE student of the year award and she walked into that class
(07:03):
with the privilege of being the daughter of a PE teacher.
She grew up with a different set of privileges, whether it be access, time, all of these things.
I'm looking at my set of golf clubs in the corner right there.
There's sports equipment all around my house.
We've got soccer goals in the backyard, a swing set of trampoline.
(07:27):
So all of these things have created this environment around her where play is normal.
And she's been in my school on snow days or breaks where I go in and lift weights and
she picks up a PVC pipe next to me and acts like she's lifting weights.
We put a bunch of balls down in the gym or cones and we build or construct a little game
(07:52):
together.
That privilege that she walked into school with gave her a and again when we start getting
into this tricky space where your PE classes comparing kids to each other, it can be a
no sum outcome because you have kids who have lived their whole lives with physical activity
(08:21):
structured into their routines.
And then you have kids who they walk into a school when they're in kindergarten and they've
never seen a gymnasium before.
And so we really have to be critical about asking that question about how do we reconcile
that gap if our system is set up to norm reference.
Yeah.
(08:41):
Yeah.
And I would add one thing that I feel very, very strongly about.
Yeah.
And before we carry on, hi Mike.
Please you're joining us.
I didn't know.
I didn't see you.
Okay.
Just to carry on there.
(09:03):
So in response to what Jordan says, I'm going to say that our role is to be judgment free
and that extends judgment to be judgment free of students, but also of their familial or
social context.
(09:23):
Because for whatever reason, reasons that we do not know that a young person hasn't
been exposed to a range of activities or as Jordan articulately put, physical activity
has not been a normal or natural part of their lives.
We can be quite disparaging or I've certainly been in staff rooms where there is disparaging
(09:48):
conversations about deficits amongst the community or amongst a group of parents because they
do not value the same thing as we might value.
And I think that's far too simplistic and I think it's ethically wrong to do so, especially
when we don't know the context at all.
Okay.
(10:09):
So understanding what makes something good.
If a student is a skilled mover, applies knowledge and understanding, next question, in one or
more activities and displays fine social skills but does not choose to be physically active,
are they good at PE?
So that's what is the relationship between standards one, two, three and four.
And in the previous webinars, I argued that standard four underpins everything.
(10:35):
That in the reverse of what I'm saying here, it underpins everything because it enables
a young person to develop any other three standards.
But you can in theory develop any other three standards, but then not choose to be physically
active.
And this is really difficult.
And we might come back to that.
I think if I was pushed, I think I would say no, they're not going to appear because I
(10:59):
don't underpins that is the effective, is the emotional connection to being physically
active.
And the definition I put up before is that it brings something really good to their life.
They are able to flourish as a result of having that physical activity in their lives.
So I'm not sure with that gap, I don't think it's possible to be perceived as good at PE.
(11:26):
But that's a little bit of a red herring question.
So let's have a look at this presentation.
This short presentation is about inclusive safe spaces.
And this is controversial.
I fully accept that.
Some people might not buy into the language that I'm using.
So let me explain it and justify it.
(11:48):
And again, I'm more than happy for people to reach out.
So if you're in a sense of connection or disconnection, belonging or dis belonging, there will be
students who absolutely love walking into your gym.
I was one of those students as a teenager.
I would imagine most of the, well, I know that most of the teach, the teachers that
(12:11):
I was involved in teacher education with were that were they those kids.
And I've also had the privilege and the pleasure of working with people who have felt a really
strong disconnection.
And it is a privilege because they hold the mirror up to us and we need to have the mirror
held up to us.
So I've tried to use my words really carefully.
(12:34):
Traditionally, these students typically feel a sense of belonging in PE spaces.
And I do not want to get into generalization.
Clearly not all boys and young men have a sense of belonging.
But typically more boys, more male students have felt that belonging to female students
(12:56):
very, very well documented.
Some of the feminist literature and research around PE places, PE within patriarchal structures
and privileges values more highly male uses of the body, being competitive, being strong,
being powerful, overcoming others, etc. more than traditionally female uses of the body.
(13:23):
And I think hopefully we move into a space where that that terminology or even those
concepts are being broken down.
Okay, straight students have felt a great sense of belonging, supportive families we've
touched upon.
Research shows that it's not just young people who are from very wealthy families, but definitely
(13:44):
families that have got some expendable income or some additional time who have got some
time privileges, time to invest, especially with younger children.
Athletically experienced females.
So it's not just males, it's it's athletically experienced or kids like Jordan described
(14:08):
earlier who are just exposed to activity as a normal part of life.
Young people who are able bodied and who are neurotypical tend to feel a greater sense
of belonging.
Cisgendered young people and healthy young people.
So they tend and by all means, you know, think about the students in your school.
(14:35):
I would urge anyone not falling to the trap of finding an exception to disprove the rule.
I've tried to really use my words carefully.
This is typical, not, not general.
So on the flip side of that, there's a whole group of kids who typically feel a sense of
dis belonging.
(14:56):
And again, I've had the pleasure to talk in detail to some of these young people and
people of these backgrounds, adults of these backgrounds who are able to reflect on their
peer experience.
And I've I've seen people really have a bad time remembering some of those those experiences,
feeling a sense of anxiety, inducement, feeling panic attacks.
(15:19):
I've worked with teachers who when they're discussing their experiences have had to leave
the room and seek some support from loved ones on the phone because they're reliving
really bad experiences.
So finding a sense of belonging of young people from the LGBTQ plus especially, and I don't
(15:44):
really want to maybe I shouldn't use especially.
I think we have got an awful lot to learn and how to work with young people who identify
as trans and queer.
And the reason I say that, and I think it's really relevant to physical education is because
the physical the body is absolutely at the heart of transness and the relationship that
(16:06):
that young person has with the body.
So when they come into the only area of school life, which is educating the body, which is
policing the body, which is telling the body how it should or should not move, what is
appropriate what is inappropriate movement, what is good or successful movement.
That's before we even talk about this, the context in which P might take place around
(16:30):
what does a locker room look like and feel like what's the experience in there, how gendered
is the whole experience.
Certainly here in the UK, it is still very common to have single sex PE.
So the boys would do one one class, the girls would do another class.
Where does that leave young people who are struggling to identify as their birth gender?
(16:55):
Neurodiverse kids can really feel a sense of disbelonging.
They can't make sense.
PE can be very noisy.
It could be very fast moving.
It could be very congested.
And for a lot of young people, of course, neurodiverse is not an emergent group, but there's certainly
an awful lot of neurodiverse conditions that are very, very difficult to make it very difficult
(17:20):
to navigate that sort of really noisy setting.
Young people who are ill, young people with disabilities, those with learning challenges
begin at English speakers, young people in precarity, an absolute icon, I suppose, of
(17:41):
PE academia is a guy called David Kirk, who wrote a book about PE for young people in
precarity, a really contemporary concept, I suppose, because precarity is people, young
people from families where their future is just so uncertain, gig economy workers, migrant
(18:02):
workers, just they've got such little security and organizing and managing school life can
be extremely hard.
Now the next bullet point, again, you know, people might like the language, some people
might not like the language.
You know, typically in medicinal context, people will talk about young people living
(18:26):
with overweight and obese, medicalizing the condition.
I'm a really big fan of a podcast called the maintenance phase, which is presented by a
woman who identifies as a fat woman called Aubrey Gordon.
I've followed up and read some of her work.
Some of it is the most heartbreaking accounts.
(18:47):
She talks amazingly, honestly, about her experience in PE, and I'm using her language.
She identifies as a fat person, and she talks about fat kids.
And so essentially, we're talking about those who are least like us have a tough time or
are more likely to have a tough time.
(19:09):
And I guess if we're looking at this, we're looking at, you know, who holds power, who
are the majority power and who's got minority power.
So minoritized groups.
PE is not an oasis.
There are amazing PE practitioners who really value and work towards socially just physical
(19:30):
education experiences, and they will buck the trends and their voices need to be heard
and their practice needs to be heard.
So why do these young people have such a tough time?
What does that say about us?
The reasons for that would be really complex.
There will be multifaceted.
(19:52):
But I just want to finish this by just talking about us.
What's our heart to play in the experiences those young people have?
And I've tried to highlight some really practical ways that we can address some of that sense
of disbelonging.
And hopefully it's on this slide.
So it starts with really identifying what we value.
(20:15):
But there's a lovely phrase I came across a few years ago that values.
Yeah, of course, we could put things on the wall.
And they can be reasonably powerful.
We can show allyship.
We can show that we value diversity.
We can value inclusion.
But values are to be lived not laminated.
Lived not laminated.
(20:37):
So it has to permeate policy, practice, behavior and culture.
So the next thing is around assessment.
And this brings us full circle back to where we started.
Your assessment is a reflection of what you value.
Your assessment is your literal definition of what it means to be good in this subject
(20:59):
area.
So assessing on personal progress straight away is much more welcoming, much more inclusive
and allows us to have genuine conversations with maybe the kids who were in that disbelonging
group and say to them, you're doing much better than you were three weeks ago.
(21:24):
You're doing great in PE.
A few years ago, I watched one of my student teachers teach a gymnastics class.
And at the end, she spoke to a girl she was in grade seven.
And she said was almost to that effect.
That your gymnastics has come on really well.
(21:45):
You're doing things now that you weren't able to do.
In other words, the girl had made progress in standard one.
She was moving better.
And she tied that back to the reasons for movement.
I'll come onto that in a moment.
And as the teacher walked away, and again, I was in a privileged position where I can
watch as a bystander.
And I saw the girl who had been spoken to shed a tear.
(22:07):
She was genuinely moved.
And I chose my moment and I said to her, are you okay?
Is everything all right?
What's the matter?
And she said, nobody has ever told me I'm doing well in PE before.
And she was just overcome.
And the simple flip, just flipping assessment for the prevents comparison.
(22:32):
Now, there's a beautiful maxim that comparison is the thief of joy.
And if we want young people to have joy for the experiences, why would we compare them?
And I get it to a degree, to a degree, I get it in subjects like English or math or classroom
based subjects.
(22:52):
The outcome for there is for the young people to score highly in high stakes tests, certainly
as they get into middle and high school.
Our goal is around supporting them develop behaviors and supporting them develop that
positive relationship with physical activity.
So why would we want to take away that joy of that, the journey by saying, well, you
(23:18):
know, you're doing okay, but you're still not as good as Jordan over there.
We might not say that explicitly, but our assessment might point to that.
And then praise.
Now I know that Carol Dweck's work has been reviewed and revised and challenged.
And I get that.
I don't, you know, I never thought it was the outcomes were as great as she was making
(23:43):
out.
But the one takeaway I had from her work, or what was it like 12 years ago now, the
one takeaway was really reframing praise.
And this was the toughest thing that the student teachers I worked with, found it really hard
to reframe praise one, drop all hyperbole, really difficult, drop awesome, wonderful,
(24:07):
we're doing fantastic.
I know we, a lot of people really want to go there.
It's an expression of being really positive.
Because every time you say that to one kid, five kids hear that and think what I'm not
doing that.
Now, okay, maybe we shouldn't be pampering to self esteem so much.
(24:28):
And I'm not thinking I'm falling into that trap.
What I'm going to say is actually harder and more hold to the students more to account.
So Dweck's version of praise was praise what the student is doing to bring about progress.
What are they doing to bring about progress?
So you're always praising the learning processes.
(24:51):
Now this straight away, one is much more inclusive.
And two is much more educative.
You're talking as a teacher, not as a fan or a coach.
So it would be things like your shooting is really improved.
You must have been practicing really hard.
I really liked that.
Well done.
Or look what the outcomes you've achieved as a group.
(25:15):
Your collaboration must have been really good.
Well done.
Okay, so we focus on not the outcome.
You'll shoot.
That was a great shot.
What did you do?
You practice hard.
You practice with focus.
You thought about addressing your weaknesses and that can be applied to standard one, two
or three.
(25:36):
And the third thing I think we can do is to always walk in the shoes of the students who
come into our room.
What does it feel like to be autistic and to be faced with 20 kids bouncing a basketball?
And that's a conversation.
And that's checking in with our students and that's showing that we care.
(26:00):
What does it feel like to be a young person who's questioning their sexuality or their
gender identity to come into your room where the body is absolutely central to the learning
experience?
There's a conversation.
(26:21):
So a number of things that I hope they all flow through and I guess walking in their
shoes speaks to culture, the culture that we're trying to create around our phys ed
areas by using all the communication channels that are available to us and really living
our values.
(26:43):
Again I've probably overspoken and apologies for that but really pleased that we've got
Mike and Caitlin joining us.
So open Mike and of course Jordan is still with us and hosting.
So I'm going to shut up and ask for comments or questions.
(27:03):
While Caitlin and Mike are gathering themselves if they want to jump in, I'll kind of bring
a little more closure to this.
Before we started by talking about the typical student who does well in a PE class, right?
(27:25):
What we just went through and had a wonderful time learning from you about was this idea
of disarming the traditional notions of the physical education class.
The people who we are serving, these students and families, their perceptions only are
colored by the experiences that they themselves have had.
(27:48):
I think about it a lot.
What does this perfect world look like where a student walks in and their K-12 physical
education experience is with a teacher who values inclusion, their values, their assessment,
their praise and feedback is all in a line to ensuring that every student's experience
(28:14):
is as best as it can possibly be.
I can't possibly say everyone's experience is 100% but that you can give everything you
have to that one kid to give them what they need so that they feel willing to jump in
and participate and be social and ask questions.
(28:38):
We talked about this in the last podcast but talking about who owns the assessment, like
to get a student to come in and understand, like I am not the person who is assessing
you, rather you are assessing yourself and I will kind of moderate that with you and
talk you through that and be your partner in this assessment journey but this is about
(29:03):
you, it's not about me.
My job is to make this environment for you and there's a lot of magic that happens when
students feel like they can own some of our space.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I really like the way you put that.
(29:23):
Hey Mike.
Hey, can I pop in?
Yeah, absolutely.
Can I take a second?
Yeah, I know I've never been on here.
Hey Jordan, met you one time.
Great, nice to meet you.
Yeah, I just got home from Piquin but we spent a lot of time today.
(29:46):
I do a lot of that in my class where we have students that their own goals and it's part
of their learning journey.
We use magnets and they can put the magnet up on the board based on where they feel they're
at.
I often reference like a road trip.
(30:08):
So if you're going to take a road trip to Florida, if we all take a road trip to Florida,
we're all on a different path to that road trip to destination to get to Florida.
So if we're, maybe you're in Wisconsin, maybe you're in Tennessee but as we go, we're
at different parts and that's all part of that process.
And I actually, one of the other things that I'll chime in is I think like our district
(30:33):
recently has scaled back from fitness testing and I know that's kind of a big, that's a
big, I wouldn't say necessarily debate but there's districts that are like mandatory
and then there's some that do it by choice and then some that don't do it at all and
I do see purpose in it but I also see the way it's been done is where it's been damaged,
(30:57):
damaging.
And one of those, one of the examples that I use personally is like for example, the
sit-ups test.
A student walks in at the beginning of the year and can do maybe two sit-ups.
By the end and you know, initially for residential fitness, you're failing, right?
(31:20):
You initially, right away from the start of the year, you're already told that you're
insufficient.
But then by the end of the school year, if that student who had two gets to eight, they're
still insufficient but we're not addressing that there was growth.
And so I think that that's one of those, one of the biggest questions or parts of the conversation
(31:44):
that we've had is just allowing students to pick their own goal and to let their progress
be what their success rate is.
As you're moving in that journey and if you're at the top, doesn't necessarily mean that
you need to go even higher, maintaining.
There's still levels of growth and sustaining wherever you're at.
(32:07):
So I think that those are two things that popped into my mind when I was listening to
two of you.
Thanks, Mike, thanks for your contribution and it really interesting.
And yeah, I guess I think the whole area of fitness and fitness testing, maybe that's
a whole webinar.
(32:28):
I think the fitness industry can be one of the most exclusionary industries using some
of the most exclusionary conceptual advocacy that we have.
And as physical educators, what's our relationship with that?
(32:49):
What's our relationship with fitness?
It really interesting listening to you using like if you're at the top and the notion that
there's this pyramid, which we started off right at the very beginning saying, you know,
is really sort of deep in our psyche and the kids that you gave the example that went from
(33:11):
two to eight.
I think what you illustrated really beautifully is that a one size fits all threshold is always
going to have a negative effect on some students.
And I would argue the students who need us most.
And similarly, the question I posed really early on, the kid who can smash out whatever
(33:34):
the threshold is for sit ups, I don't know, so they could do fully sit ups in 45 seconds,
whatever it is, I don't know.
But they don't have a positive relationship with physical activity.
Like, is that a good thing?
You know, they can have the strongest core, you know, in the school, but they might be
(33:54):
full of self-deprecation, they might be full of self loathing, they might not like the space,
they might not get on with the other people.
But there's a lot, you know, people are messy is a really complex thing.
So keeping in mind that where are we going with that journey?
I love your journey and allergy.
We use that a lot.
And you know, Florida, in your example there, that is the place where the kid has a positive
(34:18):
relationship with physical activity, and they're using it to support their life flourishing
bingo, whether you could do two sit ups or two sit ups.
If you've got that life flourishing because you enjoy being active, whatever PE teacher,
parent, carer, support structures has got you there.
They are the unsung heroes because that's a wonderful gift to give to a young person.
(34:43):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the question too.
Sorry, Mike.
When you admit it.
I think the question too.
It comes in.
Oh.
My bad.
You go ahead.
You go ahead.
Okay, Jordan, you mentioned earlier about just access.
And I think I was in a car when I heard it and you were talking, I don't know if you're
(35:06):
referencing your own child having accessibility or just things around.
I think that's what I picked up as I bounced it like mid conversation.
I agree.
Even with my own kids.
Also, they're, I mean, they come to school with me and then they get to hang out and
they get lots of exposure.
But if I'm not looking at them even and I'm looking at my other students, like there's
(35:29):
oftentimes I have discussions with this about like the fire teachers in our district and
where the way we develop and design a curriculum and a program for FIED for so long, it's been
very elitist and for the athletes.
(35:50):
And in a lot of ways they already are getting it.
They're already getting it outside of the.
That's number one.
And then number two, like I was that kid.
I was that kid as a kid as a kid.
I could go into any one of these FIED programs in our district or in the state.
And I'm sure I would have a blast.
(36:10):
But the issue is or the focus that we need to have our focus and our direction needs
to be on the ones that are not getting it.
Like you said, but then also are the ones that are those ones on the fringe of how can
we get them on board to have a positive experience.
And I started this little phrase that just like to learn to love to move and it's been
(36:34):
kind of like moving through our district and it's now on our vision statement and stuff.
But it is it's like really we just want them to to learn, right to love the move for life.
Like really that loving just whatever it is, whatever your mode is, whatever your mode
of movement that you choose, you know, whether it's even just going for a walk.
(36:56):
Like many times like I have conversations with students or staff and other people.
It's like, you know, you can do all these things during FIED.
But at the end of the day, 90% of the people in our country in the US and in the world
will still choose at the end of a, you know, a dinner or maybe if they want to go hang
out with a friend, what do they choose?
(37:17):
They say, Hey, do you want to go for a walk?
Hey, do you want to walk your dog?
You know, you want to go to the park?
It's like walking is a form of exercise.
It's super popular.
We should be reinforcing that level of choice and that level of leisure without whatever
we're choosing to do.
So, anyways, I'm sorry to bounce you in front of you, Jordan, but I wanted to piggyback up
(37:40):
what you just said.
Thank you.
No, it's all good.
It's all good.
Yeah.
And I did reference my own daughter as my example.
I recognize that she walks into a PE class with leaps and bounds, more, you know, physical
skill, cognitive knowledge, and the ability to talk about what she is doing compared to
(38:06):
other kids just because I myself am engaging her in those activities and those conversations.
So I think that's a super important part of privilege that we can talk about.
Hey, Caitlin, are you there?
I'm here.
Yeah, awesome.
I wanted to make sure that you had a chance to pop in if you wanted to.
(38:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I just, I loved hearing everything you guys are all sharing and it's really made
me think of more ways of how can my department, you know, working at a junior high, I feel
like a lot of those feelings start coming out of, you know, the love of moving and or
the hatred of moving depending on their experiences in class and how can we get more student voice
(38:56):
to hear and like ensure that we are meeting those needs.
I was just curious on like how you guys maybe do that with your like the different age levels
of how you guys teach also.
Capture student voice, Caitlin, is that your question?
How do you capture student voice?
Well, Jordan, do you want to answer that?
(39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
And Caitlin's heard me shout to the moon about my move before and, you know, Greg is
the founder of my move.
But it's, you know, as I continue to, again, I'm, we're talking journeys today.
As I walk this journey as a teacher, trying to better understand the kids who are in my
(39:44):
care, finding the way to authentically engage that voice is, is a struggle sometimes.
But having a tool that makes it really easy really benefits me.
It's finding the creative uses of questioning and of assessment of social skills and the
(40:12):
experiences that people are having.
You know, my first experience when I had my move is I would ask them, I was like, Hey,
you know, tell me how class was say or rate the class or something like that.
And they would all just be like, class was good.
Or, you know, Mr. Manley sucks.
Like they would throw something in there, you know, that didn't give me enough information
(40:37):
to make a decision about.
And so over the course of time, you know, pulling in elements of meaningful PE framework
and learning to appropriately question kids about an emotional response that they're
having really starting to center fun as this really complex word rather than this word
(41:02):
that we just throw out there for everything that we do.
And then getting them to really honestly reflect using kind of Bloom's taxonomy verbs
like explain, describe, identify, that's really pulling out of them more robust responses
(41:23):
to me that are actionable on my end.
You know, I think I tend to believe that all these ways that we see student voice happening
online, Mike mentioned, Plagnance, Plagnance are awesome.
You know, polling dot voting, like all these different ways that we collect voice are great
(41:45):
and it's helpful.
But as kids get older, sixth grade up, how do we get students to start to narrate what
is happening within them?
Because again, one of my biggest questions about student voice is who does, who is the
(42:05):
voice for?
And certainly we benefit from knowing it, but the data that students are producing belongs
to them and it should communicate back to them about their experience.
And so for me, using a tool like MyMove that creates that ongoing storytelling narrative
(42:27):
of a student's journey in my class has been by far the most beautiful thing that I've
ever done.
One, two, three, four!
(00:07):
So, I'm going to start by asking this question, think of the students you teach and who is
good at PE and also who would other students say is good at PE and why would they say that?
(00:36):
What are the attributes?
Is that the right word?
Are we comfortable with the word attribute?
What are the characteristics?
What are the qualities on display that makes them good at PE?
Yeah, absolutely.
Sorry, Greg, I'm going to jump in right here.
(00:57):
I also think about it from a different frame which is when I'm talking to teachers in my
building, they automatically put these assumptions toward me.
You know, oh, you've got that kid.
I bet that kid's really good at your class.
I know that kid has an A, it dives into grading and all those conversations as well.
(01:20):
But again, it's like these assumptions that we make that because a kid is athletic or
participates in organized sport that automatically we have created a hierarchy of who is good
at PE, who PE is designed for, and that creates a really potentially harmful situation for
(01:43):
some kids.
So, I just wanted to throw in that idea of how even teachers and administrators in the
building also perpetuate some of these things.
Well, all stakeholders, right?
So, and you know, almost, I think it's safe to say pretty much all parents have been to
school.
So they've got an opinion on this and that opinion has been shaped, has been constructed
(02:07):
by so many different things.
And one of the things that I really want to focus on today is our heart, our role.
We are active agents in this whole narrative, in the whole story, and how do we use that
agency to achieve the things that we say that we value?
Okay.
(02:29):
So opening question.
And I like to keep coming back to just these reminders.
The last two weeks, we've used the Mikhail Quinishsted quote that the only sustainable
goal of PE is that young people want to do more PE or physical activity.
This is a quote that I've hung pretty much all my work from, that a physically educated
(02:55):
person should be defined as those who have learned to arrange their lives in such a way
that physical activities, they freely engage in, make a distinctive contribution to their
long-term flourishing.
And that's a guy called McAllister.
And of course, that really speaks to the new shape standard for it.
(03:17):
Shape standard for that we're going to come on to here.
There is an orange and the full award in, I've put that as a sort of summary.
I hope I haven't taken liberties with it.
The full award in is young people choose to be physically active.
Okay.
So with, I've reminded ourselves of the standards here because what does it mean to be good
(03:40):
or to show progress in those standards?
So are we saying that if we take standard one, that if you're good within that domain,
that means you move well, you move skillfully, or does it mean you move better than you moved
(04:01):
previously?
And for what reason?
So does it mean you're the best mover or you're a better mover?
The two is no applying knowledge and understanding within an activity framework, whether that
be a formal or an informal activity.
Does that mean that you know the most and you can apply the most or that you know more
(04:26):
and can apply more understanding than you did previously?
Similarly standard three, developing social skills.
I have, are we talking about young people who are good because they've got high level
social skills or they've got better social skills than they had previously?
So one would be personal reference, showing personal progress, and the other would be normative
(04:50):
reference, better than other people.
I'm always really fascinated though, and I'm going to put this in here at this point.
And I guess this is the controversial bit.
So if we have a relatively short amount of time over a semester to support young people
(05:12):
developers, movers to apply knowledge and understanding and to develop social skills,
it's always really difficult to know, is there a causation or is there a correlation?
In other words, are those improved social skills because of what they learn with us?
Or are they social skills that the young person is bringing with them into class?
(05:35):
Similarly are their movement skills already well established?
How much progress have they made in that?
Or are we saying they move really well at the start of the unit?
They move similarly well at the end of the unit, i.e. they haven't got worse, but we're
not really sure that they've got better and that we're not really sure that they've learned
to move better as a result of my teaching.
(05:58):
They just move well and that's probably based on their prior experience.
And that prior experience is probably not always, probably based on a range of privileges
that they have access to.
It might be familiar support, it might be financial support, it could be a whole range
(06:18):
of things.
And I just really want to clarify, I'm not necessarily always talking about privilege
in the sense of socioeconomic privilege.
Access to space, access to love, access to care, access to support can be prevalent across
all socioeconomic groupings and none.
And we've been joined by Mike Chamberlain.
(06:41):
So I'm letting Mike in.
While you're letting him in, I'll jump in because I and Caitlin has been in one of my
sessions before and maybe has heard me tell this story about privilege, but my daughter
in kindergarten won the PE student of the year award and she walked into that class
(07:03):
with the privilege of being the daughter of a PE teacher.
She grew up with a different set of privileges, whether it be access, time, all of these things.
I'm looking at my set of golf clubs in the corner right there.
There's sports equipment all around my house.
We've got soccer goals in the backyard, a swing set of trampoline.
(07:27):
So all of these things have created this environment around her where play is normal.
And she's been in my school on snow days or breaks where I go in and lift weights and
she picks up a PVC pipe next to me and acts like she's lifting weights.
We put a bunch of balls down in the gym or cones and we build or construct a little game
(07:52):
together.
That privilege that she walked into school with gave her a and again when we start getting
into this tricky space where your PE classes comparing kids to each other, it can be a
no sum outcome because you have kids who have lived their whole lives with physical activity
(08:21):
structured into their routines.
And then you have kids who they walk into a school when they're in kindergarten and they've
never seen a gymnasium before.
And so we really have to be critical about asking that question about how do we reconcile
that gap if our system is set up to norm reference.
Yeah.
(08:41):
Yeah.
And I would add one thing that I feel very, very strongly about.
Yeah.
And before we carry on, hi Mike.
Please you're joining us.
I didn't know.
I didn't see you.
Okay.
Just to carry on there.
(09:03):
So in response to what Jordan says, I'm going to say that our role is to be judgment free
and that extends judgment to be judgment free of students, but also of their familial or
social context.
(09:23):
Because for whatever reason, reasons that we do not know that a young person hasn't
been exposed to a range of activities or as Jordan articulately put, physical activity
has not been a normal or natural part of their lives.
We can be quite disparaging or I've certainly been in staff rooms where there is disparaging
(09:48):
conversations about deficits amongst the community or amongst a group of parents because they
do not value the same thing as we might value.
And I think that's far too simplistic and I think it's ethically wrong to do so, especially
when we don't know the context at all.
Okay.
(10:09):
So understanding what makes something good.
If a student is a skilled mover, applies knowledge and understanding, next question, in one or
more activities and displays fine social skills but does not choose to be physically active,
are they good at PE?
So that's what is the relationship between standards one, two, three and four.
And in the previous webinars, I argued that standard four underpins everything.
(10:35):
That in the reverse of what I'm saying here, it underpins everything because it enables
a young person to develop any other three standards.
But you can in theory develop any other three standards, but then not choose to be physically
active.
And this is really difficult.
And we might come back to that.
I think if I was pushed, I think I would say no, they're not going to appear because I
(10:59):
don't underpins that is the effective, is the emotional connection to being physically
active.
And the definition I put up before is that it brings something really good to their life.
They are able to flourish as a result of having that physical activity in their lives.
So I'm not sure with that gap, I don't think it's possible to be perceived as good at PE.
(11:26):
But that's a little bit of a red herring question.
So let's have a look at this presentation.
This short presentation is about inclusive safe spaces.
And this is controversial.
I fully accept that.
Some people might not buy into the language that I'm using.
So let me explain it and justify it.
(11:48):
And again, I'm more than happy for people to reach out.
So if you're in a sense of connection or disconnection, belonging or dis belonging, there will be
students who absolutely love walking into your gym.
I was one of those students as a teenager.
I would imagine most of the, well, I know that most of the teach, the teachers that
(12:11):
I was involved in teacher education with were that were they those kids.
And I've also had the privilege and the pleasure of working with people who have felt a really
strong disconnection.
And it is a privilege because they hold the mirror up to us and we need to have the mirror
held up to us.
So I've tried to use my words really carefully.
(12:34):
Traditionally, these students typically feel a sense of belonging in PE spaces.
And I do not want to get into generalization.
Clearly not all boys and young men have a sense of belonging.
But typically more boys, more male students have felt that belonging to female students
(12:56):
very, very well documented.
Some of the feminist literature and research around PE places, PE within patriarchal structures
and privileges values more highly male uses of the body, being competitive, being strong,
being powerful, overcoming others, etc. more than traditionally female uses of the body.
(13:23):
And I think hopefully we move into a space where that that terminology or even those
concepts are being broken down.
Okay, straight students have felt a great sense of belonging, supportive families we've
touched upon.
Research shows that it's not just young people who are from very wealthy families, but definitely
(13:44):
families that have got some expendable income or some additional time who have got some
time privileges, time to invest, especially with younger children.
Athletically experienced females.
So it's not just males, it's it's athletically experienced or kids like Jordan described
(14:08):
earlier who are just exposed to activity as a normal part of life.
Young people who are able bodied and who are neurotypical tend to feel a greater sense
of belonging.
Cisgendered young people and healthy young people.
So they tend and by all means, you know, think about the students in your school.
(14:35):
I would urge anyone not falling to the trap of finding an exception to disprove the rule.
I've tried to really use my words carefully.
This is typical, not, not general.
So on the flip side of that, there's a whole group of kids who typically feel a sense of
dis belonging.
(14:56):
And again, I've had the pleasure to talk in detail to some of these young people and
people of these backgrounds, adults of these backgrounds who are able to reflect on their
peer experience.
And I've I've seen people really have a bad time remembering some of those those experiences,
feeling a sense of anxiety, inducement, feeling panic attacks.
(15:19):
I've worked with teachers who when they're discussing their experiences have had to leave
the room and seek some support from loved ones on the phone because they're reliving
really bad experiences.
So finding a sense of belonging of young people from the LGBTQ plus especially, and I don't
(15:44):
really want to maybe I shouldn't use especially.
I think we have got an awful lot to learn and how to work with young people who identify
as trans and queer.
And the reason I say that, and I think it's really relevant to physical education is because
the physical the body is absolutely at the heart of transness and the relationship that
(16:06):
that young person has with the body.
So when they come into the only area of school life, which is educating the body, which is
policing the body, which is telling the body how it should or should not move, what is
appropriate what is inappropriate movement, what is good or successful movement.
That's before we even talk about this, the context in which P might take place around
(16:30):
what does a locker room look like and feel like what's the experience in there, how gendered
is the whole experience.
Certainly here in the UK, it is still very common to have single sex PE.
So the boys would do one one class, the girls would do another class.
Where does that leave young people who are struggling to identify as their birth gender?
(16:55):
Neurodiverse kids can really feel a sense of disbelonging.
They can't make sense.
PE can be very noisy.
It could be very fast moving.
It could be very congested.
And for a lot of young people, of course, neurodiverse is not an emergent group, but there's certainly
an awful lot of neurodiverse conditions that are very, very difficult to make it very difficult
(17:20):
to navigate that sort of really noisy setting.
Young people who are ill, young people with disabilities, those with learning challenges
begin at English speakers, young people in precarity, an absolute icon, I suppose, of
(17:41):
PE academia is a guy called David Kirk, who wrote a book about PE for young people in
precarity, a really contemporary concept, I suppose, because precarity is people, young
people from families where their future is just so uncertain, gig economy workers, migrant
(18:02):
workers, just they've got such little security and organizing and managing school life can
be extremely hard.
Now the next bullet point, again, you know, people might like the language, some people
might not like the language.
You know, typically in medicinal context, people will talk about young people living
(18:26):
with overweight and obese, medicalizing the condition.
I'm a really big fan of a podcast called the maintenance phase, which is presented by a
woman who identifies as a fat woman called Aubrey Gordon.
I've followed up and read some of her work.
Some of it is the most heartbreaking accounts.
(18:47):
She talks amazingly, honestly, about her experience in PE, and I'm using her language.
She identifies as a fat person, and she talks about fat kids.
And so essentially, we're talking about those who are least like us have a tough time or
are more likely to have a tough time.
(19:09):
And I guess if we're looking at this, we're looking at, you know, who holds power, who
are the majority power and who's got minority power.
So minoritized groups.
PE is not an oasis.
There are amazing PE practitioners who really value and work towards socially just physical
(19:30):
education experiences, and they will buck the trends and their voices need to be heard
and their practice needs to be heard.
So why do these young people have such a tough time?
What does that say about us?
The reasons for that would be really complex.
There will be multifaceted.
(19:52):
But I just want to finish this by just talking about us.
What's our heart to play in the experiences those young people have?
And I've tried to highlight some really practical ways that we can address some of that sense
of disbelonging.
And hopefully it's on this slide.
So it starts with really identifying what we value.
(20:15):
But there's a lovely phrase I came across a few years ago that values.
Yeah, of course, we could put things on the wall.
And they can be reasonably powerful.
We can show allyship.
We can show that we value diversity.
We can value inclusion.
But values are to be lived not laminated.
Lived not laminated.
(20:37):
So it has to permeate policy, practice, behavior and culture.
So the next thing is around assessment.
And this brings us full circle back to where we started.
Your assessment is a reflection of what you value.
Your assessment is your literal definition of what it means to be good in this subject
(20:59):
area.
So assessing on personal progress straight away is much more welcoming, much more inclusive
and allows us to have genuine conversations with maybe the kids who were in that disbelonging
group and say to them, you're doing much better than you were three weeks ago.
(21:24):
You're doing great in PE.
A few years ago, I watched one of my student teachers teach a gymnastics class.
And at the end, she spoke to a girl she was in grade seven.
And she said was almost to that effect.
That your gymnastics has come on really well.
(21:45):
You're doing things now that you weren't able to do.
In other words, the girl had made progress in standard one.
She was moving better.
And she tied that back to the reasons for movement.
I'll come onto that in a moment.
And as the teacher walked away, and again, I was in a privileged position where I can
watch as a bystander.
And I saw the girl who had been spoken to shed a tear.
(22:07):
She was genuinely moved.
And I chose my moment and I said to her, are you okay?
Is everything all right?
What's the matter?
And she said, nobody has ever told me I'm doing well in PE before.
And she was just overcome.
And the simple flip, just flipping assessment for the prevents comparison.
(22:32):
Now, there's a beautiful maxim that comparison is the thief of joy.
And if we want young people to have joy for the experiences, why would we compare them?
And I get it to a degree, to a degree, I get it in subjects like English or math or classroom
based subjects.
(22:52):
The outcome for there is for the young people to score highly in high stakes tests, certainly
as they get into middle and high school.
Our goal is around supporting them develop behaviors and supporting them develop that
positive relationship with physical activity.
So why would we want to take away that joy of that, the journey by saying, well, you
(23:18):
know, you're doing okay, but you're still not as good as Jordan over there.
We might not say that explicitly, but our assessment might point to that.
And then praise.
Now I know that Carol Dweck's work has been reviewed and revised and challenged.
And I get that.
I don't, you know, I never thought it was the outcomes were as great as she was making
(23:43):
out.
But the one takeaway I had from her work, or what was it like 12 years ago now, the
one takeaway was really reframing praise.
And this was the toughest thing that the student teachers I worked with, found it really hard
to reframe praise one, drop all hyperbole, really difficult, drop awesome, wonderful,
(24:07):
we're doing fantastic.
I know we, a lot of people really want to go there.
It's an expression of being really positive.
Because every time you say that to one kid, five kids hear that and think what I'm not
doing that.
Now, okay, maybe we shouldn't be pampering to self esteem so much.
(24:28):
And I'm not thinking I'm falling into that trap.
What I'm going to say is actually harder and more hold to the students more to account.
So Dweck's version of praise was praise what the student is doing to bring about progress.
What are they doing to bring about progress?
So you're always praising the learning processes.
(24:51):
Now this straight away, one is much more inclusive.
And two is much more educative.
You're talking as a teacher, not as a fan or a coach.
So it would be things like your shooting is really improved.
You must have been practicing really hard.
I really liked that.
Well done.
Or look what the outcomes you've achieved as a group.
(25:15):
Your collaboration must have been really good.
Well done.
Okay, so we focus on not the outcome.
You'll shoot.
That was a great shot.
What did you do?
You practice hard.
You practice with focus.
You thought about addressing your weaknesses and that can be applied to standard one, two
or three.
(25:36):
And the third thing I think we can do is to always walk in the shoes of the students who
come into our room.
What does it feel like to be autistic and to be faced with 20 kids bouncing a basketball?
And that's a conversation.
And that's checking in with our students and that's showing that we care.
(26:00):
What does it feel like to be a young person who's questioning their sexuality or their
gender identity to come into your room where the body is absolutely central to the learning
experience?
There's a conversation.
(26:21):
So a number of things that I hope they all flow through and I guess walking in their
shoes speaks to culture, the culture that we're trying to create around our phys ed
areas by using all the communication channels that are available to us and really living
our values.
(26:43):
Again I've probably overspoken and apologies for that but really pleased that we've got
Mike and Caitlin joining us.
So open Mike and of course Jordan is still with us and hosting.
So I'm going to shut up and ask for comments or questions.
(27:03):
While Caitlin and Mike are gathering themselves if they want to jump in, I'll kind of bring
a little more closure to this.
Before we started by talking about the typical student who does well in a PE class, right?
(27:25):
What we just went through and had a wonderful time learning from you about was this idea
of disarming the traditional notions of the physical education class.
The people who we are serving, these students and families, their perceptions only are
colored by the experiences that they themselves have had.
(27:48):
I think about it a lot.
What does this perfect world look like where a student walks in and their K-12 physical
education experience is with a teacher who values inclusion, their values, their assessment,
their praise and feedback is all in a line to ensuring that every student's experience
(28:14):
is as best as it can possibly be.
I can't possibly say everyone's experience is 100% but that you can give everything you
have to that one kid to give them what they need so that they feel willing to jump in
and participate and be social and ask questions.
(28:38):
We talked about this in the last podcast but talking about who owns the assessment, like
to get a student to come in and understand, like I am not the person who is assessing
you, rather you are assessing yourself and I will kind of moderate that with you and
talk you through that and be your partner in this assessment journey but this is about
(29:03):
you, it's not about me.
My job is to make this environment for you and there's a lot of magic that happens when
students feel like they can own some of our space.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I really like the way you put that.
(29:23):
Hey Mike.
Hey, can I pop in?
Yeah, absolutely.
Can I take a second?
Yeah, I know I've never been on here.
Hey Jordan, met you one time.
Great, nice to meet you.
Yeah, I just got home from Piquin but we spent a lot of time today.
(29:46):
I do a lot of that in my class where we have students that their own goals and it's part
of their learning journey.
We use magnets and they can put the magnet up on the board based on where they feel they're
at.
I often reference like a road trip.
(30:08):
So if you're going to take a road trip to Florida, if we all take a road trip to Florida,
we're all on a different path to that road trip to destination to get to Florida.
So if we're, maybe you're in Wisconsin, maybe you're in Tennessee but as we go, we're
at different parts and that's all part of that process.
And I actually, one of the other things that I'll chime in is I think like our district
(30:33):
recently has scaled back from fitness testing and I know that's kind of a big, that's a
big, I wouldn't say necessarily debate but there's districts that are like mandatory
and then there's some that do it by choice and then some that don't do it at all and
I do see purpose in it but I also see the way it's been done is where it's been damaged,
(30:57):
damaging.
And one of those, one of the examples that I use personally is like for example, the
sit-ups test.
A student walks in at the beginning of the year and can do maybe two sit-ups.
By the end and you know, initially for residential fitness, you're failing, right?
(31:20):
You initially, right away from the start of the year, you're already told that you're
insufficient.
But then by the end of the school year, if that student who had two gets to eight, they're
still insufficient but we're not addressing that there was growth.
And so I think that that's one of those, one of the biggest questions or parts of the conversation
(31:44):
that we've had is just allowing students to pick their own goal and to let their progress
be what their success rate is.
As you're moving in that journey and if you're at the top, doesn't necessarily mean that
you need to go even higher, maintaining.
There's still levels of growth and sustaining wherever you're at.
(32:07):
So I think that those are two things that popped into my mind when I was listening to
two of you.
Thanks, Mike, thanks for your contribution and it really interesting.
And yeah, I guess I think the whole area of fitness and fitness testing, maybe that's
a whole webinar.
(32:28):
I think the fitness industry can be one of the most exclusionary industries using some
of the most exclusionary conceptual advocacy that we have.
And as physical educators, what's our relationship with that?
(32:49):
What's our relationship with fitness?
It really interesting listening to you using like if you're at the top and the notion that
there's this pyramid, which we started off right at the very beginning saying, you know,
is really sort of deep in our psyche and the kids that you gave the example that went from
(33:11):
two to eight.
I think what you illustrated really beautifully is that a one size fits all threshold is always
going to have a negative effect on some students.
And I would argue the students who need us most.
And similarly, the question I posed really early on, the kid who can smash out whatever
(33:34):
the threshold is for sit ups, I don't know, so they could do fully sit ups in 45 seconds,
whatever it is, I don't know.
But they don't have a positive relationship with physical activity.
Like, is that a good thing?
You know, they can have the strongest core, you know, in the school, but they might be
(33:54):
full of self-deprecation, they might be full of self loathing, they might not like the space,
they might not get on with the other people.
But there's a lot, you know, people are messy is a really complex thing.
So keeping in mind that where are we going with that journey?
I love your journey and allergy.
We use that a lot.
And you know, Florida, in your example there, that is the place where the kid has a positive
(34:18):
relationship with physical activity, and they're using it to support their life flourishing
bingo, whether you could do two sit ups or two sit ups.
If you've got that life flourishing because you enjoy being active, whatever PE teacher,
parent, carer, support structures has got you there.
They are the unsung heroes because that's a wonderful gift to give to a young person.
(34:43):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the question too.
Sorry, Mike.
When you admit it.
I think the question too.
It comes in.
Oh.
My bad.
You go ahead.
You go ahead.
Okay, Jordan, you mentioned earlier about just access.
And I think I was in a car when I heard it and you were talking, I don't know if you're
(35:06):
referencing your own child having accessibility or just things around.
I think that's what I picked up as I bounced it like mid conversation.
I agree.
Even with my own kids.
Also, they're, I mean, they come to school with me and then they get to hang out and
they get lots of exposure.
But if I'm not looking at them even and I'm looking at my other students, like there's
(35:29):
oftentimes I have discussions with this about like the fire teachers in our district and
where the way we develop and design a curriculum and a program for FIED for so long, it's been
very elitist and for the athletes.
(35:50):
And in a lot of ways they already are getting it.
They're already getting it outside of the.
That's number one.
And then number two, like I was that kid.
I was that kid as a kid as a kid.
I could go into any one of these FIED programs in our district or in the state.
And I'm sure I would have a blast.
(36:10):
But the issue is or the focus that we need to have our focus and our direction needs
to be on the ones that are not getting it.
Like you said, but then also are the ones that are those ones on the fringe of how can
we get them on board to have a positive experience.
And I started this little phrase that just like to learn to love to move and it's been
(36:34):
kind of like moving through our district and it's now on our vision statement and stuff.
But it is it's like really we just want them to to learn, right to love the move for life.
Like really that loving just whatever it is, whatever your mode is, whatever your mode
of movement that you choose, you know, whether it's even just going for a walk.
(36:56):
Like many times like I have conversations with students or staff and other people.
It's like, you know, you can do all these things during FIED.
But at the end of the day, 90% of the people in our country in the US and in the world
will still choose at the end of a, you know, a dinner or maybe if they want to go hang
out with a friend, what do they choose?
(37:17):
They say, Hey, do you want to go for a walk?
Hey, do you want to walk your dog?
You know, you want to go to the park?
It's like walking is a form of exercise.
It's super popular.
We should be reinforcing that level of choice and that level of leisure without whatever
we're choosing to do.
So, anyways, I'm sorry to bounce you in front of you, Jordan, but I wanted to piggyback up
(37:40):
what you just said.
Thank you.
No, it's all good.
It's all good.
Yeah.
And I did reference my own daughter as my example.
I recognize that she walks into a PE class with leaps and bounds, more, you know, physical
skill, cognitive knowledge, and the ability to talk about what she is doing compared to
(38:06):
other kids just because I myself am engaging her in those activities and those conversations.
So I think that's a super important part of privilege that we can talk about.
Hey, Caitlin, are you there?
I'm here.
Yeah, awesome.
I wanted to make sure that you had a chance to pop in if you wanted to.
(38:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I just, I loved hearing everything you guys are all sharing and it's really made
me think of more ways of how can my department, you know, working at a junior high, I feel
like a lot of those feelings start coming out of, you know, the love of moving and or
the hatred of moving depending on their experiences in class and how can we get more student voice
(38:56):
to hear and like ensure that we are meeting those needs.
I was just curious on like how you guys maybe do that with your like the different age levels
of how you guys teach also.
Capture student voice, Caitlin, is that your question?
How do you capture student voice?
Well, Jordan, do you want to answer that?
(39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
And Caitlin's heard me shout to the moon about my move before and, you know, Greg is
the founder of my move.
But it's, you know, as I continue to, again, I'm, we're talking journeys today.
As I walk this journey as a teacher, trying to better understand the kids who are in my
(39:44):
care, finding the way to authentically engage that voice is, is a struggle sometimes.
But having a tool that makes it really easy really benefits me.
It's finding the creative uses of questioning and of assessment of social skills and the
(40:12):
experiences that people are having.
You know, my first experience when I had my move is I would ask them, I was like, Hey,
you know, tell me how class was say or rate the class or something like that.
And they would all just be like, class was good.
Or, you know, Mr. Manley sucks.
Like they would throw something in there, you know, that didn't give me enough information
(40:37):
to make a decision about.
And so over the course of time, you know, pulling in elements of meaningful PE framework
and learning to appropriately question kids about an emotional response that they're
having really starting to center fun as this really complex word rather than this word
(41:02):
that we just throw out there for everything that we do.
And then getting them to really honestly reflect using kind of Bloom's taxonomy verbs
like explain, describe, identify, that's really pulling out of them more robust responses
(41:23):
to me that are actionable on my end.
You know, I think I tend to believe that all these ways that we see student voice happening
online, Mike mentioned, Plagnance, Plagnance are awesome.
You know, polling dot voting, like all these different ways that we collect voice are great
(41:45):
and it's helpful.
But as kids get older, sixth grade up, how do we get students to start to narrate what
is happening within them?
Because again, one of my biggest questions about student voice is who does, who is the
(42:05):
voice for?
And certainly we benefit from knowing it, but the data that students are producing belongs
to them and it should communicate back to them about their experience.
And so for me, using a tool like MyMove that creates that ongoing storytelling narrative
(42:27):
of a student's journey in my class has been by far the most beautiful thing that I've
ever done.
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