October 2, 2025 • 20 mins
Erin Patterson’s new barrister tells the court his team needs more time to prepare an appeal case against the triple murderer’s conviction.
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S1 (00:01):
Nine podcasts.
S2 (00:03):
In this episode, for the first time, Erin Patterson's legal
team states their intention to appeal her convictions for three
counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. Plus,
she has two new barristers on her side.
S3 (00:17):
Erin Patterson is a murderer. She invited her in-laws to
lunch and dished up that now infamous beef Wellington laced
with poisonous mushrooms.
S4 (00:26):
I have a concern regarding a patient that is potentially
exposed to a fatal toxin from mushroom poisoning. What's her name?
Last name is Patterson. First name Erin.
S5 (00:39):
The mother of two has been exposed for who she
really is a triple murderer.
S6 (00:44):
Three people have died, and we've had a person that
nearly died and was seriously injured.
S3 (00:50):
Justice has been served.
S2 (00:52):
The jury giving a very strong four unanimous guilty verdicts today.
S7 (00:57):
I had eyes on her as the four women stood
up and read out guilty for different times to all
four charges.
S2 (01:04):
Finding she did have the intent to harm her estranged
husband's in-laws and to kill them.
S8 (01:09):
Some of the best people I've ever met, they never
did anything wrong to me, and I'm so devastated about
what's happened.
S2 (01:15):
Those 12 jurors, the people who sealed her fate after
a ten week trial. But ultimately they found that she's
a liar and they found her guilty. Well, we weren't
expecting to see Aaron Patterson again or be back in
court for her case just a month after she was sentenced. Aaron.
But that's exactly what's happened here in Melbourne today.
S9 (01:37):
That's right. Continuing on from the unpredictable trial and all
the twists and turns, once again, there's been, um, another
update that we can bring our listeners.
S2 (01:48):
And this was a very, very short court hearing. It
went for about three minutes in total. But first of all,
representing Aaron Patterson is her third barrister since she's been charged.
And it wasn't Colin Mandy who everyone got to know
through the trial period, a barrister called Richard Edney. Now,
he also confirmed for the first time that Aaron Patterson
(02:10):
will be appealing against her convictions.
S9 (02:12):
That's right. Richard Edney walked into court today to speak
with Justice Christopher Beale, and he walked in alongside Aaron
Patterson's solicitors. They've been her solicitors from the very beginning,
Bill Doig and Ophelia Holloway. Um, but, uh, as he
walked in, he was, you know, very sharp suit, very
well presented man strutted straight in like he knew what
(02:35):
he needed to do and took a seat at the
bar table on the other side. We had Jane Warren
for the Crown prosecution. She didn't need to say much
as part of the hearing. Um, we heard the ventilation
of what is just going to happen with Aaron Patterson's appeal.
S2 (02:49):
Yeah. And what we've spoken about with listeners before is
that usually in Victoria, what happens is at the conclusion
of a matter, usually a sentence. There's this 28 day
clock that starts to count down, and that's for if
there's going to be an appeal that appeal paperwork being
lodged with the higher court, the Court of Appeal now
very recently between Aaron Patterson being sentenced and where we
(03:10):
are now, about two weeks ago, there was what's called
a new practice direction, which is a trial that's been
brought in. So this is going to be tested over
around a year. And what it allows is instead of
a 28 day period, an extra 28 day period. So
56 total for applicants to get in their paperwork, submit
(03:31):
officially and lodge that appeal without having to explain themselves.
And Aaron, I might get you to talk a little
bit more about the process as it was as we
know it, with the way that people had to apply
for more time. But it sort of all happens backwards.
S9 (03:46):
It does. It really does. So technically, what is normally
supposed to happen is there's a bit of a 28
day window from the date of sentence, which would have
taken Aaron Patterson to midnight on October 6th. That her
defense team had to file an intention to appeal conviction
or sentence and or in. What happened then? I think
(04:07):
it was about the 17th of September. The Chief Justice
announced that there was going to be a trial, um,
of a bit of a change, because what they were
seeing was a lot of barristers having to apply for
extra time outside of those 28 days to complete that paperwork, um,
because there'd been a backlog. And so lots, lots of
complaints had been raised or concerns, I probably should say
(04:30):
concerns raised about meeting that deadline. So what this trial
effectively does is instead of having to file an affidavit,
penny explaining why you need extra time, why you should
have perhaps an extra week or two to to file
that documentation, you won't need to file that affidavit during
this trial. Effectively, you'll be given a green light to
(04:50):
have extra time, um, in order to do so. Now
what happens typically is if you want an extension for
your appeal before this trial, yes, you put in that application.
We've seen it in other cases, like Greg Lynn, for example, Penny,
where he filed his just outside his deadline. Um, there
is often a bit of a risk there. Sometimes it
(05:11):
can get to the Court of Appeal and they say, no,
we won't give you an extension of time. Um, I mean,
I've never seen that happen, but there is that risk.
So what this change effectively does is give, um, barristers
a green light to have an extra few weeks to
prepare all their documentation.
S2 (05:26):
And it is confusing because we're talking there about a trial,
but not a legal criminal trial in the way that
we've seen Aaron Patterson facing being found guilty. But a
trial is in a test to see if a system
works a little bit better. And the way that the
Court of Appeal system works is that once that paperwork
is lodged, and essentially what the legal team is seeking
(05:47):
is what's known as leave to appeal. And when it
gets to the point that it's heard by the Court
of Appeal. That's three justices of the Court of Appeal,
which we don't expect anything in the Court of Appeal
to move very quickly. At the moment everything's quite slow.
So this we're now looking in terms of a result
for Aaron Patterson's application. It will be probably a year
(06:08):
or well into next year before we know what's going on.
But what actually happens is despite the lodging of the
paperwork from an applicant, it then when the appeal is heard,
it's heard as the three justices first announcing and giving
a ruling on whether they'll actually grant the leave to appeal.
Now they can either say, yes, we're granting the leave
to appeal. And that means usually on that day, let's go.
(06:31):
The appeal goes ahead. Or they can say, no, we're
going to throw it all out. We're not granting leave
to appeal. So there's no appeal hearing essentially at all.
But it all happens on that one day. And what
was happening as well with this extension of time is
the extension of time was being rolled into the leave
to appeal as well. So you'd say we want this
extra time, but you wouldn't hear back as to whether, yes,
(06:52):
you were getting an extension of time. Yes, you could
have your appeal until this particular day. So it does
in a way simplify things going forward. But this is
certainly the first major case that we've seen have have
this happen under this, this very new test. And it
has meant that it's been a little bit of a
different day for all of the reporters and everyone getting
their heads around this particular system. And I think what
(07:14):
also has been the most, I guess, newsworthy or thing
that people have been speaking about the most is that
while we've seen Colin Mandy with Aaron Patterson all the
way through this trial, speaking to her in the dock,
he was sort of the face of the legal team,
the voice of her defense. He wasn't there today. It
was Richard Edney. But we understand there will actually be
(07:37):
a fourth barrister representing Aaron Patterson when it comes to
this appeal. We have confirmed that Julian McMahon SC, a
very well-known criminal barrister and known for his human rights
work as well, will be representing her in her appeal
at this stage. Now, while he wasn't in court today,
he is going to be taking the appeal forward. And
(07:58):
Julian McMahon has got a very, very long history in
the criminal law in Victoria. He's been practicing for, I think,
nearly 20 years, and that is his his main work
as a criminal defence barrister. However, what people most notably
probably will know him for is the work that he's
done overseas for Australians who have been convicted of smuggling
(08:20):
drugs and some facing the death penalty. He did represent
some of the Bali Nine. He's also worked on another
case in Singapore as well, so people will have seen
headlines today around Aaron Patterson being represented by Julian McMahon.
We do understand that is the case as we head
towards an appeal, but that appeal is yet to be
formally lodged. Yeah.
S9 (08:40):
And this is we're talking sort of senior barristers here.
Often you'll have a senior and a junior barrister during
a trial depending on how complicated or or serious these
cases can be. You can see more and more joining
the team. And we also had Sophie Stafford, as you know,
Penny during the trial there working alongside Colin Mandy. She
was also absent from court. And so again was Annette
(09:03):
Rogers for the Crown prosecution. Um, but we had largely
the same face as otherwise in court. Um, the informant
was there. A lot of other members of the homicide
squad also attended the hearing? Um, there were a couple
of members of the public. I could see, um, in
the gallery overhead, but largely press. Um, we're all pretty
much shoulder to shoulder in that courtroom, um, getting our
(09:25):
heads around all of this new information. Um, you know,
the explanation of how an appeal works can probably have
a lot of our listeners heads spinning. Um, it is
incredibly complicated. And because it is complicated, um, and it's really,
really high stakes. Um, it does take time. Um, it
does take time for everybody to file paperwork, Penny. And
it does take time for it to get before the court.
(09:47):
We know with the Greg Lynn appeal, which is coming
up soon. You know, that's about 12 months since his, um,
date of sentencing. Um, when we've seen others typically follow
the same timeline. Um, one might expect that if a
person is appealing a conviction rather than a sentence, that
maybe they would get priority. Um, we don't really know
how things work behind the scenes at the Court of Appeal, but, um,
(10:10):
it's very, very common for people to appeal. But that
doesn't mean it's easy, and it does not mean at
all that it's straightforward. It's just another one of these
twists and turns in this case, Penny, as we we're
all trying to follow what's going on, and we really
don't know the next date that she will be back
in court. Um, there could be other things going on.
We know the restraining order on her house is something
(10:30):
that's are still alive issue. Um, and that's got us
really looking at whether or not, um, legal Aid will
come in now to fund an appeal. The higher you
go in a court, sometimes the more difficult it can
be to obtain legal aid funding. But, um, if she
hasn't got any funds, um, and no, um, accessible assets,
(10:53):
it seems common sense that she would be going down
a legal aid route.
S2 (10:57):
And we know that there was a public ad put
out by one of her friends trying to sell her
car a little while ago, the red M.G. that everyone's
seen in a lot of that footage where she stopped
and spoke to the media the first and really only
time before she was charged. And we don't, um, as
you say, know exactly where the access to money is
at the moment because there's the restraining order to stop
(11:18):
any sale of the Leongatha property. And we would expect
that extends to starting to extend to some other assets
as well. So people do have the ability to apply
for legal aid. That's not something that occurs in a
public courtroom. It's it's basically an application to a board.
And there are different, um, circumstances taken into consideration and
different things that have to be met and decided on there.
(11:39):
But she's also just celebrated her second birthday behind bars, too.
She's just turned 51.
S9 (11:46):
Yeah. On the 30th of September. Penny, um, was the
marking of her 51st birthday. So it's been a week
of events for this triple murderer. We don't know anything
about how she would have celebrated, um, or not her
birthday while she's in custody. We did see her briefly
on the video link. Um, when she appeared in court
(12:07):
for this brief hearing. Um, she was wearing a blue windcheater,
which is what they women commonly wear in Dame Phyllis Frost, centre. And, um,
she was sitting at the same, um, table that she
normally does, staring out the window for a lot of
the hearing. We didn't get much of a reaction from her.
It's not unusual at all, Penny, but this was, as
you said earlier in this episode, um, a hearing that
(12:28):
only went for a couple of minutes. Um, a very
important hearing, but one that was over very, very quickly.
And it's now, um, I guess, up to us to
watch and and wait and find out whether or not
those appeal documents get lodged. Yes. They said today. Um,
they have an intention to appeal the conviction. But until
that paperwork is lodged, Penny, um, you never know what
(12:50):
is going to happen. So 56 days will be the
maximum time at the moment. Um, they've indicated that they
will need, um, but we'll be checking in with the
court every day quite regularly to find out if and
when that occurs.
S2 (13:03):
We'll be back with more after this. And as to
what grounds Aaron Patterson might appeal her conviction on. A
lot of people have said to me, this looks pretty,
you know, water tight from the outside. How could she
possibly try and say now that she's not guilty after
this jury verdict? The system allows for for an appeal.
It depends, obviously, on what grounds the defence can put
(13:24):
to the Court of Appeal whether those justices allow it
to go forward. They will have to find points of law,
different things to, um, build an appeal on essentially to
try and get that leave to to launch that hearing
in the first place. And when we do see the
paperwork lodged, which we are expecting around early November. That
should give us some indication as to what her legal
(13:47):
team want to try and rely on to try and
have these convictions and the jury decisions. Relooked at. As
for a sentence appeal, that can happen as well. They've
not indicated at this point that they would appeal that
life sentence with a 33 year non-parole period. However, there
have been reports that the Director of Public Prosecutions, the
prosecution team, whether they would look to appeal that sentence, they,
(14:09):
of course, argued initially that Aaron Paterson should be jailed
for life without the possibility of parole. We know if
that had happened, she would only be the second woman
in Australia ever given that sentence. It wasn't what happened
in the end.
S9 (14:21):
I spoke to the Office of Public Prosecutions earlier this
week about what their their plans were, and they said
that they haven't yet made a decision. So we know
that they've got until midnight on the 6th of October,
2025 to file those documents. So the earliest we would
find out is the following morning, the Tuesday morning on
the 7th of October, whether or not they did decide.
But they did send me a statement this week saying, um,
(14:44):
that they were still, you know, considering it. But they
hadn't made a formal decision yet. So the clock is ticking. Penny,
there's only I'm counting on my calendar now, a couple
of sleeps, um, that they've got. And we know that
the weekend is fast approaching. Um, so we would hope
to know within a number of days if the OP
also would like to join, um, the same rung and
(15:06):
go down in the appeal route as well, or whether
or not they will accept the sentence that was handed down.
S2 (15:11):
And we do know just from speaking with people in
the legal profession today, conversations that I've had it certainly
the feeling amongst, uh, criminal lawyers that it is more
unusual to get an appeal from the prosecution side on
a sentence. And a lot of that's because they have
to take a lot of different things into consideration between
they refer to them as stakeholders, but basically victims families,
(15:33):
police and and ultimately it's up to the director to decide,
do we go forward on a, on another, uh, hearing essentially,
and all the work and time and money that goes
into that or will we accept this? And whereas we
do see a little bit more regularly, um, accused and
then convicted people appealing either against their sentence or conviction,
(15:55):
which they're certainly allowed to put those appeals to the
Court of Appeal. But those three justices have to make
the decision as to whether they're worthy of an appeal
in the circumstances or it can't just be, I don't
like it. I insist I'm innocent.
S9 (16:09):
Yeah. And we've seen a lot of lawyer X related
appeals and a, like, um, starting to pop up in
the Court of Appeal in the last couple of years.
And often we'll walk in and we'll sit down ready
to hear whether or not a person's been granted an appeal.
And it's, uh, no appeal, denied sentence or conviction. Whatever
it is you've applied for, denied. And the hearing is
(16:29):
over within about 25 seconds.
S2 (16:31):
It's so fast.
S9 (16:32):
The seat you've sat down on isn't even warm. You know,
the leather seats you sit down on? um. You're there.
You've barely unpacked your handbag, getting out your laptop, and
all of a sudden, um, everybody in the room's built up.
All of this feeling and emotion and anxiety of what's
going to happen, including the accused, who usually appears via
video link, not knowing what their fate is going to be.
(16:54):
I mean, the Court of Appeal hold such power and
such important power in their hands, deciding whether or not
somebody could potentially spend the rest of their life in
prison or walk free that day. Um, it's such an
important process, such a high stakes process. And yeah, sometimes
it's just over super quick. Other times the hearing might
go for half an hour or an hour or so.
(17:16):
Sometimes an appeal can run for weeks or months. It's
you just never know. And I imagine that's very stressful
for any legal team. On the prosecution or defense side
that that ends up in the Court of Appeal because
like us, you really don't know a which way it's
going to go. And B, how long are you going
to be in that court for? And if it blows
out to months and you end up seeing retrials and
things like that. That does occur. Um, yeah. That's a
(17:40):
that's a lot of time and a lot of effort.
S2 (17:41):
And they certainly are those, those real unknown days, like
you're saying, Erin, because the teams that are coming to
the bench, they have to be prepared for it to
go either way. So they need to either be ready
to stand up and argue and speak. And the three
Court of Appeal justices, whoever they are presiding over each case,
will often have multiple questions for, uh, different legal representatives
(18:03):
as they go through their arguments. Or, as you said,
they can be over so, so quickly. And in those circumstances,
we tend not to receive any reasons publicly. It's just, yes,
it's going ahead or no. And we either hear the
appeal or we don't. So we certainly don't expect to
see if this sort of goes a lot further. Anything
really fleshed out in a legal argument sense publicly, uh,
(18:26):
for up to a year's time, or at least certainly
months and well into next year.
S9 (18:30):
Yeah. Another big question that I've had a lot of
people asking me about as well. Penny is what's going
to happen with the civil side of things. Is anybody
going to get compensation? Will her kids, will Ian Wilkinson,
the families? Um, anybody related to them going to get
any sort of compensation? Will it come from the House?
What will that look like? It's still early days. Um,
we know that the restraining order does remain on the house,
(18:52):
but there certainly hasn't been any public progression in what's
happening with that either. Perhaps that will, um, be put
on ice a little bit, um, while the appeal is
going on. That's typically what I've seen happen in the past.
But certainly if we see or hear anything in that regard,
we'll we'll bring our listeners those updates as soon as
we have them.
S2 (19:10):
Yeah. And it's certainly just another sort of reminder after
the last time we spoke, Ian Wilkinson standing on those
steps outside the court, being noticeably relieved, I think, I
guess that at least this part of the process was
over in the sentencing. But so often in the legal world,
things are not over when when you think that they
are over in terms of victims families and people on
(19:33):
that side. So it's certainly just a reminder that how
far there can be to go for things to still
be continually coming around and reminding people of what's happened,
whether there's anywhere to go further than the Court of
Appeal remains to be seen. There is, of course, the
High Court in Australia, but at this point I think
it's very much focused just on the Court of Appeal
(19:55):
sort of being a last ditch attempt by Aaron Paterson,
who she's in solitary confinement for life at this point.
There's there's not a lot else for her to do
or look forward to. But thank you for listening to
this episode of say Grace. Please press the follow button
in your app to get our next episodes as soon
as we publish.
S9 (20:12):
For more reporting on the case, check out The Age
of nine news in your browser or App Store.
S2 (20:17):
We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land
that this podcast was recorded on, and wherever you're listening
to it now, say Grace is created and hosted by me,
Penelope Leach.
S10 (20:26):
And me, Aaron Pearson.
S2 (20:27):
This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.
Nine podcasts.
S2 (00:03):
In this episode, for the first time, Erin Patterson's legal
team states their intention to appeal her convictions for three
counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. Plus,
she has two new barristers on her side.
S3 (00:17):
Erin Patterson is a murderer. She invited her in-laws to
lunch and dished up that now infamous beef Wellington laced
with poisonous mushrooms.
S4 (00:26):
I have a concern regarding a patient that is potentially
exposed to a fatal toxin from mushroom poisoning. What's her name?
Last name is Patterson. First name Erin.
S5 (00:39):
The mother of two has been exposed for who she
really is a triple murderer.
S6 (00:44):
Three people have died, and we've had a person that
nearly died and was seriously injured.
S3 (00:50):
Justice has been served.
S2 (00:52):
The jury giving a very strong four unanimous guilty verdicts today.
S7 (00:57):
I had eyes on her as the four women stood
up and read out guilty for different times to all
four charges.
S2 (01:04):
Finding she did have the intent to harm her estranged
husband's in-laws and to kill them.
S8 (01:09):
Some of the best people I've ever met, they never
did anything wrong to me, and I'm so devastated about
what's happened.
S2 (01:15):
Those 12 jurors, the people who sealed her fate after
a ten week trial. But ultimately they found that she's
a liar and they found her guilty. Well, we weren't
expecting to see Aaron Patterson again or be back in
court for her case just a month after she was sentenced. Aaron.
But that's exactly what's happened here in Melbourne today.
S9 (01:37):
That's right. Continuing on from the unpredictable trial and all
the twists and turns, once again, there's been, um, another
update that we can bring our listeners.
S2 (01:48):
And this was a very, very short court hearing. It
went for about three minutes in total. But first of all,
representing Aaron Patterson is her third barrister since she's been charged.
And it wasn't Colin Mandy who everyone got to know
through the trial period, a barrister called Richard Edney. Now,
he also confirmed for the first time that Aaron Patterson
(02:10):
will be appealing against her convictions.
S9 (02:12):
That's right. Richard Edney walked into court today to speak
with Justice Christopher Beale, and he walked in alongside Aaron
Patterson's solicitors. They've been her solicitors from the very beginning,
Bill Doig and Ophelia Holloway. Um, but, uh, as he
walked in, he was, you know, very sharp suit, very
well presented man strutted straight in like he knew what
(02:35):
he needed to do and took a seat at the
bar table on the other side. We had Jane Warren
for the Crown prosecution. She didn't need to say much
as part of the hearing. Um, we heard the ventilation
of what is just going to happen with Aaron Patterson's appeal.
S2 (02:49):
Yeah. And what we've spoken about with listeners before is
that usually in Victoria, what happens is at the conclusion
of a matter, usually a sentence. There's this 28 day
clock that starts to count down, and that's for if
there's going to be an appeal that appeal paperwork being
lodged with the higher court, the Court of Appeal now
very recently between Aaron Patterson being sentenced and where we
(03:10):
are now, about two weeks ago, there was what's called
a new practice direction, which is a trial that's been
brought in. So this is going to be tested over
around a year. And what it allows is instead of
a 28 day period, an extra 28 day period. So
56 total for applicants to get in their paperwork, submit
(03:31):
officially and lodge that appeal without having to explain themselves.
And Aaron, I might get you to talk a little
bit more about the process as it was as we
know it, with the way that people had to apply
for more time. But it sort of all happens backwards.
S9 (03:46):
It does. It really does. So technically, what is normally
supposed to happen is there's a bit of a 28
day window from the date of sentence, which would have
taken Aaron Patterson to midnight on October 6th. That her
defense team had to file an intention to appeal conviction
or sentence and or in. What happened then? I think
(04:07):
it was about the 17th of September. The Chief Justice
announced that there was going to be a trial, um,
of a bit of a change, because what they were
seeing was a lot of barristers having to apply for
extra time outside of those 28 days to complete that paperwork, um,
because there'd been a backlog. And so lots, lots of
complaints had been raised or concerns, I probably should say
(04:30):
concerns raised about meeting that deadline. So what this trial
effectively does is instead of having to file an affidavit,
penny explaining why you need extra time, why you should
have perhaps an extra week or two to to file
that documentation, you won't need to file that affidavit during
this trial. Effectively, you'll be given a green light to
(04:50):
have extra time, um, in order to do so. Now
what happens typically is if you want an extension for
your appeal before this trial, yes, you put in that application.
We've seen it in other cases, like Greg Lynn, for example, Penny,
where he filed his just outside his deadline. Um, there
is often a bit of a risk there. Sometimes it
(05:11):
can get to the Court of Appeal and they say, no,
we won't give you an extension of time. Um, I mean,
I've never seen that happen, but there is that risk.
So what this change effectively does is give, um, barristers
a green light to have an extra few weeks to
prepare all their documentation.
S2 (05:26):
And it is confusing because we're talking there about a trial,
but not a legal criminal trial in the way that
we've seen Aaron Patterson facing being found guilty. But a
trial is in a test to see if a system
works a little bit better. And the way that the
Court of Appeal system works is that once that paperwork
is lodged, and essentially what the legal team is seeking
(05:47):
is what's known as leave to appeal. And when it
gets to the point that it's heard by the Court
of Appeal. That's three justices of the Court of Appeal,
which we don't expect anything in the Court of Appeal
to move very quickly. At the moment everything's quite slow.
So this we're now looking in terms of a result
for Aaron Patterson's application. It will be probably a year
(06:08):
or well into next year before we know what's going on.
But what actually happens is despite the lodging of the
paperwork from an applicant, it then when the appeal is heard,
it's heard as the three justices first announcing and giving
a ruling on whether they'll actually grant the leave to appeal.
Now they can either say, yes, we're granting the leave
to appeal. And that means usually on that day, let's go.
(06:31):
The appeal goes ahead. Or they can say, no, we're
going to throw it all out. We're not granting leave
to appeal. So there's no appeal hearing essentially at all.
But it all happens on that one day. And what
was happening as well with this extension of time is
the extension of time was being rolled into the leave
to appeal as well. So you'd say we want this
extra time, but you wouldn't hear back as to whether, yes,
(06:52):
you were getting an extension of time. Yes, you could
have your appeal until this particular day. So it does
in a way simplify things going forward. But this is
certainly the first major case that we've seen have have
this happen under this, this very new test. And it
has meant that it's been a little bit of a
different day for all of the reporters and everyone getting
their heads around this particular system. And I think what
(07:14):
also has been the most, I guess, newsworthy or thing
that people have been speaking about the most is that
while we've seen Colin Mandy with Aaron Patterson all the
way through this trial, speaking to her in the dock,
he was sort of the face of the legal team,
the voice of her defense. He wasn't there today. It
was Richard Edney. But we understand there will actually be
(07:37):
a fourth barrister representing Aaron Patterson when it comes to
this appeal. We have confirmed that Julian McMahon SC, a
very well-known criminal barrister and known for his human rights
work as well, will be representing her in her appeal
at this stage. Now, while he wasn't in court today,
he is going to be taking the appeal forward. And
(07:58):
Julian McMahon has got a very, very long history in
the criminal law in Victoria. He's been practicing for, I think,
nearly 20 years, and that is his his main work
as a criminal defence barrister. However, what people most notably
probably will know him for is the work that he's
done overseas for Australians who have been convicted of smuggling
(08:20):
drugs and some facing the death penalty. He did represent
some of the Bali Nine. He's also worked on another
case in Singapore as well, so people will have seen
headlines today around Aaron Patterson being represented by Julian McMahon.
We do understand that is the case as we head
towards an appeal, but that appeal is yet to be
formally lodged. Yeah.
S9 (08:40):
And this is we're talking sort of senior barristers here.
Often you'll have a senior and a junior barrister during
a trial depending on how complicated or or serious these
cases can be. You can see more and more joining
the team. And we also had Sophie Stafford, as you know,
Penny during the trial there working alongside Colin Mandy. She
was also absent from court. And so again was Annette
(09:03):
Rogers for the Crown prosecution. Um, but we had largely
the same face as otherwise in court. Um, the informant
was there. A lot of other members of the homicide
squad also attended the hearing? Um, there were a couple
of members of the public. I could see, um, in
the gallery overhead, but largely press. Um, we're all pretty
much shoulder to shoulder in that courtroom, um, getting our
(09:25):
heads around all of this new information. Um, you know,
the explanation of how an appeal works can probably have
a lot of our listeners heads spinning. Um, it is
incredibly complicated. And because it is complicated, um, and it's really,
really high stakes. Um, it does take time. Um, it
does take time for everybody to file paperwork, Penny. And
it does take time for it to get before the court.
(09:47):
We know with the Greg Lynn appeal, which is coming
up soon. You know, that's about 12 months since his, um,
date of sentencing. Um, when we've seen others typically follow
the same timeline. Um, one might expect that if a
person is appealing a conviction rather than a sentence, that
maybe they would get priority. Um, we don't really know
how things work behind the scenes at the Court of Appeal, but, um,
(10:10):
it's very, very common for people to appeal. But that
doesn't mean it's easy, and it does not mean at
all that it's straightforward. It's just another one of these
twists and turns in this case, Penny, as we we're
all trying to follow what's going on, and we really
don't know the next date that she will be back
in court. Um, there could be other things going on.
We know the restraining order on her house is something
(10:30):
that's are still alive issue. Um, and that's got us
really looking at whether or not, um, legal Aid will
come in now to fund an appeal. The higher you
go in a court, sometimes the more difficult it can
be to obtain legal aid funding. But, um, if she
hasn't got any funds, um, and no, um, accessible assets,
(10:53):
it seems common sense that she would be going down
a legal aid route.
S2 (10:57):
And we know that there was a public ad put
out by one of her friends trying to sell her
car a little while ago, the red M.G. that everyone's
seen in a lot of that footage where she stopped
and spoke to the media the first and really only
time before she was charged. And we don't, um, as
you say, know exactly where the access to money is
at the moment because there's the restraining order to stop
(11:18):
any sale of the Leongatha property. And we would expect
that extends to starting to extend to some other assets
as well. So people do have the ability to apply
for legal aid. That's not something that occurs in a
public courtroom. It's it's basically an application to a board.
And there are different, um, circumstances taken into consideration and
different things that have to be met and decided on there.
(11:39):
But she's also just celebrated her second birthday behind bars, too.
She's just turned 51.
S9 (11:46):
Yeah. On the 30th of September. Penny, um, was the
marking of her 51st birthday. So it's been a week
of events for this triple murderer. We don't know anything
about how she would have celebrated, um, or not her
birthday while she's in custody. We did see her briefly
on the video link. Um, when she appeared in court
(12:07):
for this brief hearing. Um, she was wearing a blue windcheater,
which is what they women commonly wear in Dame Phyllis Frost, centre. And, um,
she was sitting at the same, um, table that she
normally does, staring out the window for a lot of
the hearing. We didn't get much of a reaction from her.
It's not unusual at all, Penny, but this was, as
you said earlier in this episode, um, a hearing that
(12:28):
only went for a couple of minutes. Um, a very
important hearing, but one that was over very, very quickly.
And it's now, um, I guess, up to us to
watch and and wait and find out whether or not
those appeal documents get lodged. Yes. They said today. Um,
they have an intention to appeal the conviction. But until
that paperwork is lodged, Penny, um, you never know what
(12:50):
is going to happen. So 56 days will be the
maximum time at the moment. Um, they've indicated that they
will need, um, but we'll be checking in with the
court every day quite regularly to find out if and
when that occurs.
S2 (13:03):
We'll be back with more after this. And as to
what grounds Aaron Patterson might appeal her conviction on. A
lot of people have said to me, this looks pretty,
you know, water tight from the outside. How could she
possibly try and say now that she's not guilty after
this jury verdict? The system allows for for an appeal.
It depends, obviously, on what grounds the defence can put
(13:24):
to the Court of Appeal whether those justices allow it
to go forward. They will have to find points of law,
different things to, um, build an appeal on essentially to
try and get that leave to to launch that hearing
in the first place. And when we do see the
paperwork lodged, which we are expecting around early November. That
should give us some indication as to what her legal
(13:47):
team want to try and rely on to try and
have these convictions and the jury decisions. Relooked at. As
for a sentence appeal, that can happen as well. They've
not indicated at this point that they would appeal that
life sentence with a 33 year non-parole period. However, there
have been reports that the Director of Public Prosecutions, the
prosecution team, whether they would look to appeal that sentence, they,
(14:09):
of course, argued initially that Aaron Paterson should be jailed
for life without the possibility of parole. We know if
that had happened, she would only be the second woman
in Australia ever given that sentence. It wasn't what happened
in the end.
S9 (14:21):
I spoke to the Office of Public Prosecutions earlier this
week about what their their plans were, and they said
that they haven't yet made a decision. So we know
that they've got until midnight on the 6th of October,
2025 to file those documents. So the earliest we would
find out is the following morning, the Tuesday morning on
the 7th of October, whether or not they did decide.
But they did send me a statement this week saying, um,
(14:44):
that they were still, you know, considering it. But they
hadn't made a formal decision yet. So the clock is ticking. Penny,
there's only I'm counting on my calendar now, a couple
of sleeps, um, that they've got. And we know that
the weekend is fast approaching. Um, so we would hope
to know within a number of days if the OP
also would like to join, um, the same rung and
(15:06):
go down in the appeal route as well, or whether
or not they will accept the sentence that was handed down.
S2 (15:11):
And we do know just from speaking with people in
the legal profession today, conversations that I've had it certainly
the feeling amongst, uh, criminal lawyers that it is more
unusual to get an appeal from the prosecution side on
a sentence. And a lot of that's because they have
to take a lot of different things into consideration between
they refer to them as stakeholders, but basically victims families,
(15:33):
police and and ultimately it's up to the director to decide,
do we go forward on a, on another, uh, hearing essentially,
and all the work and time and money that goes
into that or will we accept this? And whereas we
do see a little bit more regularly, um, accused and
then convicted people appealing either against their sentence or conviction,
(15:55):
which they're certainly allowed to put those appeals to the
Court of Appeal. But those three justices have to make
the decision as to whether they're worthy of an appeal
in the circumstances or it can't just be, I don't
like it. I insist I'm innocent.
S9 (16:09):
Yeah. And we've seen a lot of lawyer X related
appeals and a, like, um, starting to pop up in
the Court of Appeal in the last couple of years.
And often we'll walk in and we'll sit down ready
to hear whether or not a person's been granted an appeal.
And it's, uh, no appeal, denied sentence or conviction. Whatever
it is you've applied for, denied. And the hearing is
(16:29):
over within about 25 seconds.
S2 (16:31):
It's so fast.
S9 (16:32):
The seat you've sat down on isn't even warm. You know,
the leather seats you sit down on? um. You're there.
You've barely unpacked your handbag, getting out your laptop, and
all of a sudden, um, everybody in the room's built up.
All of this feeling and emotion and anxiety of what's
going to happen, including the accused, who usually appears via
video link, not knowing what their fate is going to be.
(16:54):
I mean, the Court of Appeal hold such power and
such important power in their hands, deciding whether or not
somebody could potentially spend the rest of their life in
prison or walk free that day. Um, it's such an
important process, such a high stakes process. And yeah, sometimes
it's just over super quick. Other times the hearing might
go for half an hour or an hour or so.
(17:16):
Sometimes an appeal can run for weeks or months. It's
you just never know. And I imagine that's very stressful
for any legal team. On the prosecution or defense side
that that ends up in the Court of Appeal because
like us, you really don't know a which way it's
going to go. And B, how long are you going
to be in that court for? And if it blows
out to months and you end up seeing retrials and
things like that. That does occur. Um, yeah. That's a
(17:40):
that's a lot of time and a lot of effort.
S2 (17:41):
And they certainly are those, those real unknown days, like
you're saying, Erin, because the teams that are coming to
the bench, they have to be prepared for it to
go either way. So they need to either be ready
to stand up and argue and speak. And the three
Court of Appeal justices, whoever they are presiding over each case,
will often have multiple questions for, uh, different legal representatives
(18:03):
as they go through their arguments. Or, as you said,
they can be over so, so quickly. And in those circumstances,
we tend not to receive any reasons publicly. It's just, yes,
it's going ahead or no. And we either hear the
appeal or we don't. So we certainly don't expect to
see if this sort of goes a lot further. Anything
really fleshed out in a legal argument sense publicly, uh,
(18:26):
for up to a year's time, or at least certainly
months and well into next year.
S9 (18:30):
Yeah. Another big question that I've had a lot of
people asking me about as well. Penny is what's going
to happen with the civil side of things. Is anybody
going to get compensation? Will her kids, will Ian Wilkinson,
the families? Um, anybody related to them going to get
any sort of compensation? Will it come from the House?
What will that look like? It's still early days. Um,
we know that the restraining order does remain on the house,
(18:52):
but there certainly hasn't been any public progression in what's
happening with that either. Perhaps that will, um, be put
on ice a little bit, um, while the appeal is
going on. That's typically what I've seen happen in the past.
But certainly if we see or hear anything in that regard,
we'll we'll bring our listeners those updates as soon as
we have them.
S2 (19:10):
Yeah. And it's certainly just another sort of reminder after
the last time we spoke, Ian Wilkinson standing on those
steps outside the court, being noticeably relieved, I think, I
guess that at least this part of the process was
over in the sentencing. But so often in the legal world,
things are not over when when you think that they
are over in terms of victims families and people on
(19:33):
that side. So it's certainly just a reminder that how
far there can be to go for things to still
be continually coming around and reminding people of what's happened,
whether there's anywhere to go further than the Court of
Appeal remains to be seen. There is, of course, the
High Court in Australia, but at this point I think
it's very much focused just on the Court of Appeal
(19:55):
sort of being a last ditch attempt by Aaron Paterson,
who she's in solitary confinement for life at this point.
There's there's not a lot else for her to do
or look forward to. But thank you for listening to
this episode of say Grace. Please press the follow button
in your app to get our next episodes as soon
as we publish.
S9 (20:12):
For more reporting on the case, check out The Age
of nine news in your browser or App Store.
S2 (20:17):
We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land
that this podcast was recorded on, and wherever you're listening
to it now, say Grace is created and hosted by me,
Penelope Leach.
S10 (20:26):
And me, Aaron Pearson.
S2 (20:27):
This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.
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