January 26, 2025 • 43 mins
Our guest this week is Sister Helen Prejean, a spiritual powerhouse and one of the world's leading voices against the death penalty. Sister Helen’s journey into activism began in the shadows of death row, and her relentless pursuit of justice has captured hearts around the globe. Sister Helen is a Sister of St. Joseph of Medaille, and is one of the most well-known Catholic leaders in the modern era.
You may know her as the author of the best-selling book Dead Man Walking, which not only became an Oscar-winning movie starring Susan Sarandon (as Sr Prejean) and Sean Penn but also inspired a powerful opera recently performed at the Metropolitan Opera House in New York.
Her courageous and compassionate work has been shared through other critically acclaimed books, including the best-sellers The Death of Innocents and River of Fire: A Spiritual Memoir.
Through her incredible life and ministry, Sister Helen has accompanied eight men to their executions, bearing witness to the dignity of every human being—even in the darkest moments.
Today, she joins us from her home in New Orleans to share her wisdom, her faith, and her enduring hope for a world without the death penalty.
So, sit back, take a deep breath, and prepare to be inspired by one of the world’s most compassionate and courageous voices for justice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm John, Father John Deere, and today I'm
(00:19):
speaking with my friend, author, and activist, Sister Helen Prejean. This podcast is part
of the BeatitudeCenter.org, where you can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom
programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working for a more just, more
nonviolent world.
(00:40):
I like to begin with a little prayer, so I invite everyone just to, wherever you are,
take a deep breath and to relax and enter into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you personally, infinitely, and let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us.
And just take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need to follow the nonviolent Jesus
(01:05):
more faithfully and to do God's will.
Beloved God of peace, thank you for all the blessings of life and love and peace that
you give us. Be with us as we reflect on the life and teachings of the nonviolent Jesus
that we might follow him ever more faithfully and do our part to help end war, poverty,
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violence, racism, executions, nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and to welcome your
reign of universal love, universal compassion, and universal peace. In Jesus' name, amen.
Amen.
Sister Helen Prejean is one of the world's most beloved Catholic leaders and prophetic
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voices, a sister of St. Joseph of Medi. She's one of the world's leading voices against
the death penalty. She's the author of the bestselling book, Dead Man Walking, which
was made into the Oscar-winning movie starring Susan Srandon and Sean Penn. Her work then
was turned into an amazing opera, which recently premiered at the Metropolitan Opera House
(02:12):
in New York, and it's been turned into a play. And she's written other bestsellers such as
The Death of Innocence and River of Fire, a spiritual memoir.
Sister Helen is speaking to us today on the phone from her home in New Orleans. Sister
Helen Prejean, welcome to my new podcast on the nonviolent Jesus.
(02:34):
Hey, this is very exciting, John. I'm really glad to be a part of this.
Thank you. So last week, Helen, when I texted you about this and you said yes, you wrote
back and said, Jesus ain't no John Wayne Jesus. I mean, what? You mean to tell me Jesus ain't
like John Wayne? Talk to me.
(02:57):
No, talk to you is right. Listen, when you're working with the death penalty point, it really
becomes clear, John, because the John Wayne Jesus quotes the sections of the scripture,
including revelations in the New Testament, that Jesus is coming back to get justice and
he is peoed, throwing people into a fiery pit. And here's Jesus coming back. Be afraid,
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be very afraid. This is the God or Jesus of recriminations. You kill, we're going to kill
you. Prosecutors making their case to a jury and just saying, he killed. And so what justice
means is that we kill him. And God's in favor of this, as if our God is a God who gets justice
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satisfied by the pound of flesh, a life for life. It is really operative in my world as
I work on the death penalty of seeing Jesus in the name of violence being claimed.
That's so powerful, Helen. Well, you know well that I've been running this project,
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the Beatitudes Center, and it's the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount. And I just wanted
to ask you to say any words you thought about the Beatitudes. I won't read them to you,
but because a lot of people from the Beatitudes Center will be hearing this. And so Gandhi
said that the Sermon on the Mount were the greatest teachings of nonviolence and universal
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love ever. So he read them every day. And when you read the Beatitudes, blessed are
the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, the gentle, the nonviolent, those who hunger
and thirst for justice, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers and the persecuted,
which ones touch you and inspire you and challenge you these days. When I think of you, Helen,
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I think of blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Because in the end, isn't
that what we're trying to do in our work to end the death penalty, just to grant clemency
or mercy? But any words or thoughts about living the Beatitudes?
Yeah, well, definitely the mercy one is very, very operative in my life, because I see it
played out or not played out. I mean, I know we will, this will be in January when this
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airs, but right now, me and a lot of people I know getting to Joe Biden to grant mercy
to all the people on the federal death row, so Trump doesn't kill them. And we know that
he will because he has done that before he left office before. 13 people killed. It's
the last vestige of the divine right of kings to decide that people live or die. And so,
(05:52):
active mercy in the world couldn't be more dramatic or pronounced than you live or you die,
or having the power to be able to give mercy to people, which the clemency process and
the death penalty does.
So powerful, Helen. I think in terms of Jesus and the death penalty, Jesus as a victim of
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the death penalty, one of the most amazing stories about Jesus comes from John chapter
eight, where he literally saves the life of the woman about to be stoned to death by the
religious leaders who, of course, are all mean, law-abiding men. So I want to say a word about
it and ask you. I never got to ask you about John eight. So they bring her there. They're in the
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sacredest place in the world, the temple. They accuse her, challenge him about her.
And what does he do? Instead of yelling back, he bends down and draws on the ground, which I
think is an act of creative nonviolence. So he distracts them, draws their attention away
from their anger for a moment so that they can hear him. And then he stands up and gives us this
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punchline, let the one without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. And they walk away.
And he does not condemn her, but treats her with compassion. I think the passage
forbids Christians from ever killing someone. We are people who don't condemn, but we try to stop
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killing and side with the condemned. What's your take on that story of Jesus?
Yeah. Well, I think, John, it's very linked to Jesus also saying to love your enemies,
pray for your enemies, forgive your enemies. Forgiveness, I think, is really related to that
same spirit because, and I learned this, I learned this concretely from a man,
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Lloyd LeBlanc, whose 17-year-old son was murdered. How forgiveness works in our heart, because, as
Lloyd LeBlanc said, it's perceived, forgiveness is perceived as weakness, just like mercy is perceived
as weakness. What, you're going to have mercy? The John Wayne Jesus comes in there and says,
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no, watch this, man, I'm getting even. And that's the whole Rambo thing that has come to us. But
what is entailed in forgiving your enemy? If it's not weakness, what is it? And the way Lloyd LeBlanc
put it was after his son was murdered, he was consumed with anger. He wanted to kill with his
(08:32):
own bare hands, Pat Sonier and his brother who had killed his son. But here's what he noticed. He
kept praying, see, Jesus, you got to help me, because he knew he wasn't in alignment with what
Jesus wanted of him in his life and his own good heart. He knew he wasn't in alignment with eternal
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life, and he kept praying. And then when the prayer was answered, the way it was answered in him was
that he realized that his own anger was eating him alive. And when he came to this realization
with the grace that was with it, he put up his hand toward me like a stop, like this. And then he
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said, I said, uh-uh, they killed my son, but I'm not going to let them kill me. Because if I'll let
this anger keep going inside of me, I'm going to die. I'm already dying. I'm making my wife cry.
I'm neglecting my daughter, Vicki. And he came to it as this understanding, this deep compassion
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that these were human beings. They had done this to his son, but that he was not going to lose
his life because of it. And he was the only one in the town that showed compassion to the mother
of Pat and Eddie Sonier, Gladys Sonier, who lived in this little town of St. Martinville.
He appears at her front door one day and he's got a basket of fruit. And he hands it to her and he
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said, Ms. Sonier, I know you're having a tough time in this town, but I want you to know I'm a parent
just like you. And we never know really completely all our children might do. And I don't hold you
responsible for the death of David, our son. And here, these are for you. And he gave her.
Wow. Wow. There it is in action, see? And it's saving your own life. It's the real meaning of
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peace that you're not overcome by this violence, which will eat you alive. One victim's family I
talked to one time said, it's like I was drinking this poison of this anger and this hatred,
and I was hoping it would kill him, but I'm drinking the poison.
It's amazing. Well, let me ask you more about forgiveness then, because it's at the heart
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of Jesus' teachings. It's in the Sermon on the Mount. It's in the Lord's Prayer,
forgive us the way we forgive.
Yeah, many times. Probably the biggest thing.
And the brother comes, do I have to forgive seven times a day, my brother? That's Peter and Andrew.
And no, 70 times, seven times. I think that's 490 times a day, by the way.
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I'm not good with the math, but that's all.
Of course you can go figure that out.
Yeah, but no, for my life, if I forgive once every month, that's a big deal. 490 times a day.
So I want to ask you about this. And you remember my story was with my friend Billy Neal Moore,
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who was the longest on death row in the 80s. And he's about to be executed. And so I go to Georgia
and I got Mother Teresa to appeal for him. And we were going around the state having public events
the week before his execution, saying, okay, we're having prayer services for clemency to the Georgia
Board of Pardon Paroles. And Saturday night, I'm in Macon, Georgia with a big crowded church,
(12:02):
and I'm about to go there and the lawyer shows up from death row with a letter from Billy saying,
don't you hold a prayer service for me, John. I want you to, you know, just don't do this, cancel it,
because I don't want anyone going to God asking for clemency in my name when none of you grant
(12:23):
clemency to the people in your own lives. And it was just one of the greatest moments of my life.
Can you imagine? He's about to be executed.
I've got a question. How did he know people weren't granting clemency now?
John McHenry I guess he knew me.
Helen Burt What kind of a judgment?
John McHenry No, he was my friend. He knew me.
Helen Burt That'll do.
(12:44):
John McHenry Hey, you're not supposed to agree with him,
Helen. No, seriously, when I first, I wrote him every week for seven years. And the first letter
I wrote, this is to make you laugh, Helen. Dear Billy Neal Moore on death row, I'm a Jesuit novice.
I'm here to help you. And I'm here to help you. And I'm writing you what can I do for you. And
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without missing a beat, this guy on death row wrote me back. He goes, Dear John, well, thank you for
your letter. I'm fine. My whole life is in the hands of Jesus. You on the other hand sound like
you're a mess. So here I got Mother Teresa. So we canceled, I want you to talk about this,
about forgiveness, because it was life changing for me. We canceled the prayer service. I stood
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up and read the letter and said, okay, we're just going to sit in silence for 20 minutes.
And I want you all to recall with all the vim and feeling you can, all the people you hate.
This is what I said. And you're anger for. Helen Burt
It's great to have those little hate sessions. That's great, John.
John McHenry This is a whole new kind of pastoral approach,
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Helen. And I got them, I'm going to stand up and we're going to say together, God of clemency,
I grant clemency to everyone who ever hurt me in my life. Please grant us clemency and give us the
miracle of clemency for Billy Neal Moore. Everyone did it. Everyone burst into tears. And as you
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recall, three days later, Billy was granted the first person 150 years in Georgia, total clemency,
and he's out now. He's 30 years out. He's got a family and he's a minister.
Helen Burt I think the teaching is to grant clemency.
Helen Burt Okay, let me tell you about forgiveness.
Just even look at the word, John. It means for give, for, F-O-R-E, to give before.
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So what it means is that largeness of heart to reach out and to give even before something is
happened, that what your attitude and what your love is going to be, for giving. And that's the
way I learned it through Lloyd LeBlanc, that victim's family, his son had been killed. He gave,
(15:11):
he said, uh-uh, they killed my son, but they're not going to kill me. He was reaching out in his
heart to them, realizing their humanity, his humanity, his own son's humanity, and giving to
them before. It's this graciousness, it's this largeness of heart not to be captured by something
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that's so constricting and sucking the life from us as anger and hatred. What do you think of M.
Apples?
John It's so powerful. And in my own life,
as I learned from Billy to make forgiveness a daily practice, it's not a one-time thing, but you just
(15:56):
feel better. You know, you feel more peaceful.
But you know what, we gotta learn not to
forgive too easily either, because facile forgiveness is not the real thing either.
John Well, then what is it?
Well, I mean, it takes, well, because first of all,
like you have to ask for honesty and accountability where injustice has been done.
Like right now, I'm writing this book on Manuel Ortiz, who they went after, accusing him of
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hiring somebody to kill his wife for the insurance money. And they never pursued the women who had
been killed, who happened to be two African American women, both murdered. And they never
investigated who actually killed the women. They just went after Manuel, put a bull's eye on his
back to go get him as the murder-for-hire guy. So I'm not gonna forgive them too quickly for what
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they have done to Manuel. We're gonna get accountability and justice. But I'll do it and
do it with compassion. Like they're human, they have made a mistake. And, you know, they're
stunned with love and compassion to them, not with this anger and vitriol where I start accusing them.
I just wrote a letter to the DA who was in charge of the whole case. And that letter is not filled
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with anger and vitriol or accusations and name calling and all that kind of stuff. It's just like,
look, we want to get DNA testing so we can get justice for the two women that were killed.
And their real actual killers have never been sought. They're just out there somewhere.
It's a disrespect for the women who were killed. So that's just an example from my life of like,
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not saying, oh, well, they made a mistake. I'll forgive the prosecutors. They did the wrong thing.
It's not mine to forgive them in the first place.
That's so helpful, Helen. That's a great thing. Well, let me ask you then about
the death penalty and still about forgiveness. And we still have so much work to do. And thank
you for your leadership to end the death penalty in the US. And of course, there are many reasons
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why we need to do so, just to name some. It doesn't work. It's too expensive. It doesn't deter people
stuck in the cycle of violence. It doesn't bring closure or healing or peace, as the victims'
families are now telling us. It's part of the legacy of racism and classism. So ingrained in
that country. Yeah, but the one thing that I want to...
But the evolution of the church is important too, in our understanding. Well, say something about that,
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but also, you know, you've been telling me about Lloyd LeBlanc. And as I was thinking of you, I
thought, you know, the murder victims' families for reconciliation, our friends there, they had
their loved ones killed. And they came out publicly saying, don't execute the murderer of my family.
They're the real witnesses. How do we get to that place of
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We're people of restorative justice, yes. And we want a more nonviolent world, but I don't want
anyone killed in the name of my loved one. I met a few people like that with September 11th. But anyway,
so tell us... Well, but this is where, John, we gotta work with changing the law and the policies,
which legitimize the killing of the enemy. RG Okay, tell me.
(19:17):
RG I mean, we gotta work on that. But the evolution of the church is great, because it's just
growing into the gospel of Jesus in our understanding in the church about the death penalty. Because look,
for 1500 years, 1500 years, it took in this dialogue with the church to come to a point
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of being at the same point as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the UN, which is
that simply by being a human being, we have an inalienable right to life. So governments
don't have the power to alienate our life from us. Governments don't have the power to
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give people a reward for good behavior or take away their life for bad behavior.
And see, all those years of teaching, the church had in its teaching, the state has the right
to take life. And that was a sticking point, even all through the 70s, as the US bishops,
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as we were all growing and understanding that the death penalty was a bad thing all the way around,
it kept holding on to the right to take life. And so the dialogue that happened with me and the church
through Pope John Paul II, he was the first one, but then Pope Francis changed the catechism
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finding, was once you give the right to the government to take life, you're legitimizing it.
And they will set the criteria. They will say, you know, what are the criteria when we decide that
some people need to be killed for what they did? So that power needs to be taken from them. And so
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then finally, in August 2018, Pope Francis was the one who changed the catechism. And so we grow
morally, we evolve. And it happened in the fifth century when St. Augustine was the first one
to ever depart literally from the gospels and say we could use violence. Violence could be used
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to contain the violent. Violent can be coerced with the sword, with the way he put it.
And so, but look at what was going on in society. There were no prisons. They had to visit gas and
the gas, you know, knocking down the gates of Rome. There was chaos, no prisons. So as prisons
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evolved, we have an alternative way of keeping society safe without imitating the violence and
killing the killers. And so all of that grew within mostly in the minds and hearts of the people on
the ground. The people of God are the ones who have these direct experiences. And then that
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experience flows up into the church and changes things. Like it's going to change for the
ordination of women. Like it's changed for gays. Like the ordinary experience of incarnation on
the ground with real people is what teaches us and helps us grow.
So great. So Francis is now calling for a culture of mercy, a culture of non-violence. He used that
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phrase, which is so helpful. Now I want to just talk to you about the way our friend Daniel
Berrigan put it, which is the flip side. So he's coming at it from the real negative. And I never
asked you this, so I want to hear what you think. When I met Dan 41 years ago as a kid, he said,
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and I quote, what we're up against is death as a social methodology. I almost fell out of my chair.
That's exactly right. No, but that's exactly right.
Isn't that powerful? And then he went on to talk about the means and metaphors of death,
like racism, sexism, greed, or metaphors. But really the whole system is death. We bring good
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people to death. And then I think of my favorite poem is by Edna St. Vincent Millay called
Conscientious Objector. And her first sentence, and I think it gets into the nonviolent Jesus
and resurrection, is, I shall die, but that is all I shall do for death. Tell me about that.
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No, that's a great line. But see what Dan was on to was this culture of death.
And boy, the way you really see it is when you actually have legislators arguing for it,
that we have to have death as a statute in our state legislature. And see what's different about
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when the Gregg decision was made in Supreme Court in 1976, where they said there are some acts of
human beings that are so, they call them the worst of the worst. By their very nature, they demand
death, a death for death. And see, that's really a culture of death, because first of all, that's
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putting yourself up as being able to judge the difference between an ordinary murder and what
we'll call the worst of the worst. And that's why the racism comes in there. I mean, this case
right now of Badwell-Artees, with two African-American women were killed in this
white bedroom community of Meadoway, Louisiana. And racism comes in there because you don't value
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some victims as you value other victims. And you would have to have an absolutely pure society
to say that you value the life of everyone. You would feel equally outraged if a homeless person
got killed or a young black man got killed or a white coed that goes to Tulane University got
(25:20):
killed. And we are nowhere near that. We don't have the purity to be able to do that. So that
culture, see, the culture of violence and who uses the violence and who benefits from it. You always
got to look at who benefits from it. Yeah. You know, as you're talking and you were talking about
the historical, for lack of a better word, progress through history of the church, and let's say,
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toward, we're moving, we want to move, the vision is toward, for Jesus, a culture of mercy,
a culture of nonviolence. I was thinking about our friend Archbishop Tutu. So they went farther than
anybody has in South Africa. Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. Talking about a culture, change in the culture.
Yeah, Mandela becomes president and the Constitution abolishes the death penalty,
(26:06):
and they had six nuclear weapons. But then they start the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
And remember, Tutu is dealing with, he's the chair of it, the worst, most horrific white people who
tortured and killed black people. And he brings in the greatest psychiatrist in the world from
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London, and he studies the worst sociopath. And then there's a verdict, and he brings him,
the psychiatrist says, oh, yeah, everybody's redeemable. And it was such a shock. Like,
yeah, this person, in other words, well, we're nowhere near like that, that everyone can
become more nonviolent, I guess, as a culture. What do you think about that?
(26:54):
Well, because I've had the warden at Angola prison, tough prison, say to me, do you know who,
by and large, becomes our best trustees in this prison? He says people who come here for murder.
Because see, to try to identify a human being solely with an action, because there's a
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transcendence in persons, we're made in the image and likeness of God, we can change. And he said,
most of them that have committed murder didn't know when they got up that morning, they would
go murder somebody, they got in a fight in a bar, they were on drugs or whatever.
People can do unspeakable acts, but they can never be defined solely by an action.
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People can always change. And Biden even made this statement of the 39 people
that he pardoned recently who are there for nonviolent crimes in prison, excessive sentencing.
And the people who were sent home because of COVID, who have integrated their lives in a
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nonviolent way, people can always change. And it's when we put ourselves up as the judge,
the arrogant judges, to be able to decide, we think that some people are not capable of changes and we
have to kill them. That is where the arrogance really comes in and where we lose our humanity.
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So boy, that path that they pointed that Archbishop Tutu and the peace and reconciliation,
I mean, we had never seen anything like that. And those families, those wonderful families that
attended, heard what they did to their loved ones, and then were willing not to ask violence be done
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to them. Those are real heroes, I think of that. And it just shows us as human beings what can be
done. And we can be more than we are, all of us. Wow, that's so great. Okay, I want to ask you again
about Jesus. So I'm a big name dropper, as you know. I want to ask you about the passage that
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I've been working on for about 10 or 15 years, which is, I think, Luke 10, where he sends the
72 ahead. And I want to say a word about it and then just ask you to tell me anything you think
about it. Why am I asking you this? Once, years ago, one of our visits at a party or an event,
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you said to me as I was leaving, isn't it great, John, to be on mission? And I loved that, Helen.
And no one had ever said that to me before. And like, we knew the Barragans, wow, were they on a
mission, but they wouldn't use that word. So in Luke 10, Jesus sends the 72 out in pairs ahead of
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him. He's like a, I always joke that Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. I don't know if I'm
allowed to say that. Okay, thank you. Okay, yeah, Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. Go ahead,
John. So I know it's a setback. So he says, I'm sending you out like lambs into the midst of
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wolves. Wow. And you got three things. You're to heal the victims of violence. Wow. You're to expel
the demons of violence. Okay, you don't need to kill people anymore and so forth. And you're to
proclaim God's reign of peace and love and justice. And they come back rejoicing, and he rejoices.
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And I came to the conclusion, Helen, it's the only time in the four gospels where the poor guy
is happy. Because they did what he wanted. They were doing, so how do you, what do you think of
that passage? And how do you think about, we're all kind of really being sent on a mission into
our culture of violence to proclaim the reign of God. And what do you think about that?
(30:49):
Right. But you know what has struck me recently more and more is that expelling of demons seems
so weird to us. You know, demons got these demons. Although, boy, before legislation,
you hear people getting up, making these arguments about the death penalty. I mean,
they're possessed of this whole thing of we've got to do it this way. And their own political careers
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are tied to it, see? And that's what makes it so, it is like a demon. And the other thing about
Jesus sending them out with no food, no knapsack, no purse, no why, because they're going to depend
on community. And when violence erupts in our society, like think of gang members killing
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people to be initiated into the gang. It's because they need community, they need family.
And you think of people that have worked with gangs and people like that, but it's to belong
in some way. So when you belong to a community, and I think this, we can't do justice for longer
than a weekend to be on mission, for longer than a weekend without our community of support. I mean,
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I was just with lawyers, human rights lawyers over at my friend, Denny LaBuff's house,
that are defending the people in Guantanamo, you know, the mastermind of the 9-11 murders,
the people who did 9-11. And there they are, and we all haven't suffered together. These great women,
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three great women, then we were together, and they are defending people that everybody, almost
everybody in the world will say are indefensible. But the victims of 9-11, the families for a
peaceful tomorrow are very aware that getting the death penalty for people in Guantanamo is not the
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answer for their peace. And so the whole thing of sending you out and look two by two, you don't do
it alone. You always, I was just thanking Sister Margaret again today for being with me for 25
years. We've been doing this. And she's right there at my side, and we're doing it together,
you know, and we do it in community. And that helps us be peaceful, because if we're out there alone
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and we feel they're coming after us, that's what makes us fine with the defense.
Nat. Oh, that's wonderful, Helen. Thank you. Now...
Helen. There'll be no charge.
Nat. Oh, there'll be a small charge. Now, I'm not going to ask you to talk about this. I want to
still talk about the women by the cross of Jesus. You've accompanied, I think, seven men to their
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deaths on death row. Helen.
Eight men. Helen.
Just another man in Texas. Nat.
And you witnessed their executions, which I can't even ponder. And I can't because of my PTSD
in El Salvador. But in terms of the gospel, I see you in the lineage of the holy women
who stood with Jesus as He died on the cross, a victim of the death penalty, capital punishment
(34:01):
by the Roman Empire for the capital crime of stirring up revolution. Could you share some
thoughts about that image? And it's part of the call or the life, I suppose, of standing in
of standing in solidarity, grieving, accompaniment with the world's poor, the world's condemned,
(34:23):
with Christ being killed today. Any thoughts on that?
Helen. Yeah, what a grace. What a privilege, John.
Like I was with Ivan Cantu in the execution chamber. I was standing right close to him
and praying into his ear as they killed him. And what a grace that is. I mean, people look at me
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as this. Oh, wow. You're so brave to do that. They are brave. They are the ones in graves doing it.
And Ivan's last words were to the victims family. I didn't kill your son and daughter if I'd known
who did it. I mean, the thing's so bloody broken. And then to be able to be there and see it's the
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presence, it's the accompaniment. I don't actually add that much to their life. I just reinforce in
him there and then that faith that's already there. And it's such and you know what? I guess the
reason I'm not burnt out on all this and walking away saying I'm never doing that again is the
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mission I received from them, the mandate. I can't walk away from the death of Ivan Cantu or the death
of Pat Sonia or the death of Robert Lee Willie and Willie Philstein and Dobie Williams and just say,
oh, that's too painful. I'm not doing that anymore. I have been a witness. And when you're a witness,
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as Elie Wiesel put it, witnesses have a mandate and a mission and a charge to tell people and
bring them close to what they have seen so people's hearts can change.
That's so beautiful. I want to ask you about the resurrection of the nonviolent Jesus. And I forgot
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to bring it, but at the end of my collection of our friend Daniel Berrigan's writings,
called Daniel Berrigan Essential Writing, I put in this very, very obscure passage I found. I
forgot to bring it, but it goes something like this. You can't run an empire and use death as
a social methodology if you have these crazies running around saying, hey, our guy's not dead.
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And so, he wrote, you go and look up that, Pat. It's so funny, but it's so obvious now,
like, because death is it. That's all they got to put it. So, you know, how do you understand
resurrection? Of course, I want to tell you my take, which is resurrection means having nothing
to do with death and nothing to do with violence and therefore nonviolence and really we're getting
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for resurrection and we're helping people move to the new life of resurrection.
Where are you thinking these days about the resurrection of Jesus and the meaning for it
for all of us now?
First of all, the great, great insight, which I got through John Dominic Crossend of the Eastern
Church's whole approach to the resurrection. So, we've always thought of it, or I tended to,
(37:29):
as an individual resurrection. Jesus was resurrected from the dead, so we're going to
be too. And we picture in our little ego self, surviving death, but yet just being ego us.
It's all about me, right? I survive. And just shows in those early, early paintings consistently
(37:49):
in the Eastern Church of Jesus pulling up Adam and Eve with him, pulling up. He descended into
hell that passage and we resurrect in community. We do it together. It's not about this individualized
ego being resurrected. So, if we begin to learn to love others now, and I have to tell you that I
(38:14):
have actually witnessed, like I'm thinking of Ivan Cantu, who was just killed in Texas, February 28.
He was a free man inside. He was facing the anxiety and fear of his death. I said,
Ivan, how are you? He goes, well, I'm anxious. I said, well, Jesus was anxious too. How can you
not be anxious? You're a human being. This is really a big, big step from which there's no coming
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back. But he had that will, that freedom within him, which you can sense is resurrection.
That's great. I want to, because we're at our time, I just want to ask you two little questions,
which of course are ridiculous. Yeah, look, I know you squeeze it in too.
I know what you're doing. I know what you're doing.
(38:59):
He's not a John Wayne Jesus. Okay. I want to ask you about Dr. King and I want to ask you about the
nonviolent Jesus. Okay. So, this month when this is broadcast is the 100th birthday of Dr. King.
And you know, I'm such a fanatic of Dr. King, our great teacher, and it just melts me every time you
tell me the story. So, I want you to tell everyone again the story in honor of the great man's 100th
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birthday of the time you met him in the airport. Yeah, at O'Hare. I was actually, I was coming home
for the Christmas holidays. And then when I read his story, I knew he was coming from Cicero, Illinois,
Illinois. It was the most hateful community. They marched in the streets, they threw bricks at him,
(39:47):
they spit at him. He was just coming out of that. And lo and behold, I'm standing in line.
At the O'Hare airport? Yeah, it was O'Hare. I remember I was in Chicago.
So, it's like 1966 or 67. Yeah, it would have been December of 66,
because I was going home for Christmas, I remember. And I see him in line, he's behind me.
(40:14):
And I said, I think that's daggone Warren Luther King right there. And you know, I hadn't done
anything in the civil rights movement. I learned to play my guitar, to answer my friend who's
blowing in the wind. I was not awakened yet to social justice. I didn't do beans in the civil
rights. Okay. And that's where compassion comes in too, because it took me so long to get awake,
(40:40):
John. I was in my 40s when I finally woke up to social justice. Okay. But anyway, I see him there.
And I was ahead of him in line. So I got out of line, I went back to him. And I took his hand,
and he looked so tired. And if you see him in pictures of airport, he's dropping off asleep.
It was so tiring, not just the action itself of what they were doing, but all the community
(41:05):
struggles they were having. And I said, are you Martin Luther King? And he said, yes, sister.
He says, I said, oh, I said, I so appreciate what you're doing. And I'm praying for you. And he
took my hand and he pressed it warmly, said, thank you, sister. We need prayers. We need prayers so
bad. And then I went and got back in the line. I went, I just met Martin Luther King. But when
(41:30):
I really met him was when I moved in among poor people in the inner city of New Orleans and read
his life. That's when I met him. Thank you, Helen. So, you know, thank you for being here and talking
about all of these wonderful things and sharing your life with everyone. Any last thoughts,
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suggestions, tips about following the nonviolent Jesus? It's fresh. It's always ongoing. I mean,
like the meditation today, we're in Advent, and it's Matthew who's the one who gives us,
his name will be Jesus, and he's Emmanuel, the one who uses that. And then that identification,
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and where is he? Where is he? He's with the poor. He's with the homeless. He's with the people in
prison. And it's always fresh for us, the invitation to go live it anew and help Christ be born.
Because if we don't help Christ be born with our hands and our eyes and our actions and our books
and our whatever we do, Christ doesn't live except enough. That's my thing. Keep it fresh.
(42:38):
Thank you so much, sister Helen. Pray, John, for speaking with me.
Helen Great to talk to you, John, as always.
John Thank you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear more
podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter.org. And you can also offer
their comments and feedback and make a donation to support this free work. Join me next week when
(43:03):
my guest will be Father Richard Rohr talking about his new book on the prophets. May the God of peace
bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus like sister Helen. See you next time.
Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm John, Father John Deere, and today I'm
(00:19):
speaking with my friend, author, and activist, Sister Helen Prejean. This podcast is part
of the BeatitudeCenter.org, where you can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom
programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working for a more just, more
nonviolent world.
(00:40):
I like to begin with a little prayer, so I invite everyone just to, wherever you are,
take a deep breath and to relax and enter into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you personally, infinitely, and let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us.
And just take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need to follow the nonviolent Jesus
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more faithfully and to do God's will.
Beloved God of peace, thank you for all the blessings of life and love and peace that
you give us. Be with us as we reflect on the life and teachings of the nonviolent Jesus
that we might follow him ever more faithfully and do our part to help end war, poverty,
(01:27):
violence, racism, executions, nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and to welcome your
reign of universal love, universal compassion, and universal peace. In Jesus' name, amen.
Amen.
Sister Helen Prejean is one of the world's most beloved Catholic leaders and prophetic
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voices, a sister of St. Joseph of Medi. She's one of the world's leading voices against
the death penalty. She's the author of the bestselling book, Dead Man Walking, which
was made into the Oscar-winning movie starring Susan Srandon and Sean Penn. Her work then
was turned into an amazing opera, which recently premiered at the Metropolitan Opera House
(02:12):
in New York, and it's been turned into a play. And she's written other bestsellers such as
The Death of Innocence and River of Fire, a spiritual memoir.
Sister Helen is speaking to us today on the phone from her home in New Orleans. Sister
Helen Prejean, welcome to my new podcast on the nonviolent Jesus.
(02:34):
Hey, this is very exciting, John. I'm really glad to be a part of this.
Thank you. So last week, Helen, when I texted you about this and you said yes, you wrote
back and said, Jesus ain't no John Wayne Jesus. I mean, what? You mean to tell me Jesus ain't
like John Wayne? Talk to me.
(02:57):
No, talk to you is right. Listen, when you're working with the death penalty point, it really
becomes clear, John, because the John Wayne Jesus quotes the sections of the scripture,
including revelations in the New Testament, that Jesus is coming back to get justice and
he is peoed, throwing people into a fiery pit. And here's Jesus coming back. Be afraid,
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be very afraid. This is the God or Jesus of recriminations. You kill, we're going to kill
you. Prosecutors making their case to a jury and just saying, he killed. And so what justice
means is that we kill him. And God's in favor of this, as if our God is a God who gets justice
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satisfied by the pound of flesh, a life for life. It is really operative in my world as
I work on the death penalty of seeing Jesus in the name of violence being claimed.
That's so powerful, Helen. Well, you know well that I've been running this project,
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the Beatitudes Center, and it's the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount. And I just wanted
to ask you to say any words you thought about the Beatitudes. I won't read them to you,
but because a lot of people from the Beatitudes Center will be hearing this. And so Gandhi
said that the Sermon on the Mount were the greatest teachings of nonviolence and universal
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love ever. So he read them every day. And when you read the Beatitudes, blessed are
the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, the gentle, the nonviolent, those who hunger
and thirst for justice, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers and the persecuted,
which ones touch you and inspire you and challenge you these days. When I think of you, Helen,
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I think of blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Because in the end, isn't
that what we're trying to do in our work to end the death penalty, just to grant clemency
or mercy? But any words or thoughts about living the Beatitudes?
Yeah, well, definitely the mercy one is very, very operative in my life, because I see it
played out or not played out. I mean, I know we will, this will be in January when this
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airs, but right now, me and a lot of people I know getting to Joe Biden to grant mercy
to all the people on the federal death row, so Trump doesn't kill them. And we know that
he will because he has done that before he left office before. 13 people killed. It's
the last vestige of the divine right of kings to decide that people live or die. And so,
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active mercy in the world couldn't be more dramatic or pronounced than you live or you die,
or having the power to be able to give mercy to people, which the clemency process and
the death penalty does.
So powerful, Helen. I think in terms of Jesus and the death penalty, Jesus as a victim of
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the death penalty, one of the most amazing stories about Jesus comes from John chapter
eight, where he literally saves the life of the woman about to be stoned to death by the
religious leaders who, of course, are all mean, law-abiding men. So I want to say a word about
it and ask you. I never got to ask you about John eight. So they bring her there. They're in the
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sacredest place in the world, the temple. They accuse her, challenge him about her.
And what does he do? Instead of yelling back, he bends down and draws on the ground, which I
think is an act of creative nonviolence. So he distracts them, draws their attention away
from their anger for a moment so that they can hear him. And then he stands up and gives us this
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punchline, let the one without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. And they walk away.
And he does not condemn her, but treats her with compassion. I think the passage
forbids Christians from ever killing someone. We are people who don't condemn, but we try to stop
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killing and side with the condemned. What's your take on that story of Jesus?
Yeah. Well, I think, John, it's very linked to Jesus also saying to love your enemies,
pray for your enemies, forgive your enemies. Forgiveness, I think, is really related to that
same spirit because, and I learned this, I learned this concretely from a man,
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Lloyd LeBlanc, whose 17-year-old son was murdered. How forgiveness works in our heart, because, as
Lloyd LeBlanc said, it's perceived, forgiveness is perceived as weakness, just like mercy is perceived
as weakness. What, you're going to have mercy? The John Wayne Jesus comes in there and says,
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no, watch this, man, I'm getting even. And that's the whole Rambo thing that has come to us. But
what is entailed in forgiving your enemy? If it's not weakness, what is it? And the way Lloyd LeBlanc
put it was after his son was murdered, he was consumed with anger. He wanted to kill with his
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own bare hands, Pat Sonier and his brother who had killed his son. But here's what he noticed. He
kept praying, see, Jesus, you got to help me, because he knew he wasn't in alignment with what
Jesus wanted of him in his life and his own good heart. He knew he wasn't in alignment with eternal
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life, and he kept praying. And then when the prayer was answered, the way it was answered in him was
that he realized that his own anger was eating him alive. And when he came to this realization
with the grace that was with it, he put up his hand toward me like a stop, like this. And then he
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said, I said, uh-uh, they killed my son, but I'm not going to let them kill me. Because if I'll let
this anger keep going inside of me, I'm going to die. I'm already dying. I'm making my wife cry.
I'm neglecting my daughter, Vicki. And he came to it as this understanding, this deep compassion
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that these were human beings. They had done this to his son, but that he was not going to lose
his life because of it. And he was the only one in the town that showed compassion to the mother
of Pat and Eddie Sonier, Gladys Sonier, who lived in this little town of St. Martinville.
He appears at her front door one day and he's got a basket of fruit. And he hands it to her and he
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said, Ms. Sonier, I know you're having a tough time in this town, but I want you to know I'm a parent
just like you. And we never know really completely all our children might do. And I don't hold you
responsible for the death of David, our son. And here, these are for you. And he gave her.
Wow. Wow. There it is in action, see? And it's saving your own life. It's the real meaning of
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peace that you're not overcome by this violence, which will eat you alive. One victim's family I
talked to one time said, it's like I was drinking this poison of this anger and this hatred,
and I was hoping it would kill him, but I'm drinking the poison.
It's amazing. Well, let me ask you more about forgiveness then, because it's at the heart
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of Jesus' teachings. It's in the Sermon on the Mount. It's in the Lord's Prayer,
forgive us the way we forgive.
Yeah, many times. Probably the biggest thing.
And the brother comes, do I have to forgive seven times a day, my brother? That's Peter and Andrew.
And no, 70 times, seven times. I think that's 490 times a day, by the way.
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I'm not good with the math, but that's all.
Of course you can go figure that out.
Yeah, but no, for my life, if I forgive once every month, that's a big deal. 490 times a day.
So I want to ask you about this. And you remember my story was with my friend Billy Neal Moore,
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who was the longest on death row in the 80s. And he's about to be executed. And so I go to Georgia
and I got Mother Teresa to appeal for him. And we were going around the state having public events
the week before his execution, saying, okay, we're having prayer services for clemency to the Georgia
Board of Pardon Paroles. And Saturday night, I'm in Macon, Georgia with a big crowded church,
(12:02):
and I'm about to go there and the lawyer shows up from death row with a letter from Billy saying,
don't you hold a prayer service for me, John. I want you to, you know, just don't do this, cancel it,
because I don't want anyone going to God asking for clemency in my name when none of you grant
(12:23):
clemency to the people in your own lives. And it was just one of the greatest moments of my life.
Can you imagine? He's about to be executed.
I've got a question. How did he know people weren't granting clemency now?
John McHenry I guess he knew me.
Helen Burt What kind of a judgment?
John McHenry No, he was my friend. He knew me.
Helen Burt That'll do.
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John McHenry Hey, you're not supposed to agree with him,
Helen. No, seriously, when I first, I wrote him every week for seven years. And the first letter
I wrote, this is to make you laugh, Helen. Dear Billy Neal Moore on death row, I'm a Jesuit novice.
I'm here to help you. And I'm here to help you. And I'm writing you what can I do for you. And
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without missing a beat, this guy on death row wrote me back. He goes, Dear John, well, thank you for
your letter. I'm fine. My whole life is in the hands of Jesus. You on the other hand sound like
you're a mess. So here I got Mother Teresa. So we canceled, I want you to talk about this,
about forgiveness, because it was life changing for me. We canceled the prayer service. I stood
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up and read the letter and said, okay, we're just going to sit in silence for 20 minutes.
And I want you all to recall with all the vim and feeling you can, all the people you hate.
This is what I said. And you're anger for. Helen Burt
It's great to have those little hate sessions. That's great, John.
John McHenry This is a whole new kind of pastoral approach,
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Helen. And I got them, I'm going to stand up and we're going to say together, God of clemency,
I grant clemency to everyone who ever hurt me in my life. Please grant us clemency and give us the
miracle of clemency for Billy Neal Moore. Everyone did it. Everyone burst into tears. And as you
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recall, three days later, Billy was granted the first person 150 years in Georgia, total clemency,
and he's out now. He's 30 years out. He's got a family and he's a minister.
Helen Burt I think the teaching is to grant clemency.
Helen Burt Okay, let me tell you about forgiveness.
Just even look at the word, John. It means for give, for, F-O-R-E, to give before.
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So what it means is that largeness of heart to reach out and to give even before something is
happened, that what your attitude and what your love is going to be, for giving. And that's the
way I learned it through Lloyd LeBlanc, that victim's family, his son had been killed. He gave,
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he said, uh-uh, they killed my son, but they're not going to kill me. He was reaching out in his
heart to them, realizing their humanity, his humanity, his own son's humanity, and giving to
them before. It's this graciousness, it's this largeness of heart not to be captured by something
(15:34):
that's so constricting and sucking the life from us as anger and hatred. What do you think of M.
Apples?
John It's so powerful. And in my own life,
as I learned from Billy to make forgiveness a daily practice, it's not a one-time thing, but you just
(15:56):
feel better. You know, you feel more peaceful.
But you know what, we gotta learn not to
forgive too easily either, because facile forgiveness is not the real thing either.
John Well, then what is it?
Well, I mean, it takes, well, because first of all,
like you have to ask for honesty and accountability where injustice has been done.
Like right now, I'm writing this book on Manuel Ortiz, who they went after, accusing him of
(16:23):
hiring somebody to kill his wife for the insurance money. And they never pursued the women who had
been killed, who happened to be two African American women, both murdered. And they never
investigated who actually killed the women. They just went after Manuel, put a bull's eye on his
back to go get him as the murder-for-hire guy. So I'm not gonna forgive them too quickly for what
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they have done to Manuel. We're gonna get accountability and justice. But I'll do it and
do it with compassion. Like they're human, they have made a mistake. And, you know, they're
stunned with love and compassion to them, not with this anger and vitriol where I start accusing them.
I just wrote a letter to the DA who was in charge of the whole case. And that letter is not filled
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with anger and vitriol or accusations and name calling and all that kind of stuff. It's just like,
look, we want to get DNA testing so we can get justice for the two women that were killed.
And their real actual killers have never been sought. They're just out there somewhere.
It's a disrespect for the women who were killed. So that's just an example from my life of like,
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not saying, oh, well, they made a mistake. I'll forgive the prosecutors. They did the wrong thing.
It's not mine to forgive them in the first place.
That's so helpful, Helen. That's a great thing. Well, let me ask you then about
the death penalty and still about forgiveness. And we still have so much work to do. And thank
you for your leadership to end the death penalty in the US. And of course, there are many reasons
(18:06):
why we need to do so, just to name some. It doesn't work. It's too expensive. It doesn't deter people
stuck in the cycle of violence. It doesn't bring closure or healing or peace, as the victims'
families are now telling us. It's part of the legacy of racism and classism. So ingrained in
that country. Yeah, but the one thing that I want to...
But the evolution of the church is important too, in our understanding. Well, say something about that,
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but also, you know, you've been telling me about Lloyd LeBlanc. And as I was thinking of you, I
thought, you know, the murder victims' families for reconciliation, our friends there, they had
their loved ones killed. And they came out publicly saying, don't execute the murderer of my family.
They're the real witnesses. How do we get to that place of
(18:54):
We're people of restorative justice, yes. And we want a more nonviolent world, but I don't want
anyone killed in the name of my loved one. I met a few people like that with September 11th. But anyway,
so tell us... Well, but this is where, John, we gotta work with changing the law and the policies,
which legitimize the killing of the enemy. RG Okay, tell me.
(19:17):
RG I mean, we gotta work on that. But the evolution of the church is great, because it's just
growing into the gospel of Jesus in our understanding in the church about the death penalty. Because look,
for 1500 years, 1500 years, it took in this dialogue with the church to come to a point
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of being at the same point as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the UN, which is
that simply by being a human being, we have an inalienable right to life. So governments
don't have the power to alienate our life from us. Governments don't have the power to
(20:01):
give people a reward for good behavior or take away their life for bad behavior.
And see, all those years of teaching, the church had in its teaching, the state has the right
to take life. And that was a sticking point, even all through the 70s, as the US bishops,
(20:23):
as we were all growing and understanding that the death penalty was a bad thing all the way around,
it kept holding on to the right to take life. And so the dialogue that happened with me and the church
through Pope John Paul II, he was the first one, but then Pope Francis changed the catechism
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finding, was once you give the right to the government to take life, you're legitimizing it.
And they will set the criteria. They will say, you know, what are the criteria when we decide that
some people need to be killed for what they did? So that power needs to be taken from them. And so
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then finally, in August 2018, Pope Francis was the one who changed the catechism. And so we grow
morally, we evolve. And it happened in the fifth century when St. Augustine was the first one
to ever depart literally from the gospels and say we could use violence. Violence could be used
(21:28):
to contain the violent. Violent can be coerced with the sword, with the way he put it.
And so, but look at what was going on in society. There were no prisons. They had to visit gas and
the gas, you know, knocking down the gates of Rome. There was chaos, no prisons. So as prisons
(21:48):
evolved, we have an alternative way of keeping society safe without imitating the violence and
killing the killers. And so all of that grew within mostly in the minds and hearts of the people on
the ground. The people of God are the ones who have these direct experiences. And then that
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experience flows up into the church and changes things. Like it's going to change for the
ordination of women. Like it's changed for gays. Like the ordinary experience of incarnation on
the ground with real people is what teaches us and helps us grow.
So great. So Francis is now calling for a culture of mercy, a culture of non-violence. He used that
(22:38):
phrase, which is so helpful. Now I want to just talk to you about the way our friend Daniel
Berrigan put it, which is the flip side. So he's coming at it from the real negative. And I never
asked you this, so I want to hear what you think. When I met Dan 41 years ago as a kid, he said,
(23:00):
and I quote, what we're up against is death as a social methodology. I almost fell out of my chair.
That's exactly right. No, but that's exactly right.
Isn't that powerful? And then he went on to talk about the means and metaphors of death,
like racism, sexism, greed, or metaphors. But really the whole system is death. We bring good
(23:24):
people to death. And then I think of my favorite poem is by Edna St. Vincent Millay called
Conscientious Objector. And her first sentence, and I think it gets into the nonviolent Jesus
and resurrection, is, I shall die, but that is all I shall do for death. Tell me about that.
(23:47):
No, that's a great line. But see what Dan was on to was this culture of death.
And boy, the way you really see it is when you actually have legislators arguing for it,
that we have to have death as a statute in our state legislature. And see what's different about
(24:08):
when the Gregg decision was made in Supreme Court in 1976, where they said there are some acts of
human beings that are so, they call them the worst of the worst. By their very nature, they demand
death, a death for death. And see, that's really a culture of death, because first of all, that's
(24:31):
putting yourself up as being able to judge the difference between an ordinary murder and what
we'll call the worst of the worst. And that's why the racism comes in there. I mean, this case
right now of Badwell-Artees, with two African-American women were killed in this
white bedroom community of Meadoway, Louisiana. And racism comes in there because you don't value
(24:58):
some victims as you value other victims. And you would have to have an absolutely pure society
to say that you value the life of everyone. You would feel equally outraged if a homeless person
got killed or a young black man got killed or a white coed that goes to Tulane University got
(25:20):
killed. And we are nowhere near that. We don't have the purity to be able to do that. So that
culture, see, the culture of violence and who uses the violence and who benefits from it. You always
got to look at who benefits from it. Yeah. You know, as you're talking and you were talking about
the historical, for lack of a better word, progress through history of the church, and let's say,
(25:44):
toward, we're moving, we want to move, the vision is toward, for Jesus, a culture of mercy,
a culture of nonviolence. I was thinking about our friend Archbishop Tutu. So they went farther than
anybody has in South Africa. Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. Talking about a culture, change in the culture.
Yeah, Mandela becomes president and the Constitution abolishes the death penalty,
(26:06):
and they had six nuclear weapons. But then they start the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
And remember, Tutu is dealing with, he's the chair of it, the worst, most horrific white people who
tortured and killed black people. And he brings in the greatest psychiatrist in the world from
(26:29):
London, and he studies the worst sociopath. And then there's a verdict, and he brings him,
the psychiatrist says, oh, yeah, everybody's redeemable. And it was such a shock. Like,
yeah, this person, in other words, well, we're nowhere near like that, that everyone can
become more nonviolent, I guess, as a culture. What do you think about that?
(26:54):
Well, because I've had the warden at Angola prison, tough prison, say to me, do you know who,
by and large, becomes our best trustees in this prison? He says people who come here for murder.
Because see, to try to identify a human being solely with an action, because there's a
(27:16):
transcendence in persons, we're made in the image and likeness of God, we can change. And he said,
most of them that have committed murder didn't know when they got up that morning, they would
go murder somebody, they got in a fight in a bar, they were on drugs or whatever.
People can do unspeakable acts, but they can never be defined solely by an action.
(27:36):
People can always change. And Biden even made this statement of the 39 people
that he pardoned recently who are there for nonviolent crimes in prison, excessive sentencing.
And the people who were sent home because of COVID, who have integrated their lives in a
(27:57):
nonviolent way, people can always change. And it's when we put ourselves up as the judge,
the arrogant judges, to be able to decide, we think that some people are not capable of changes and we
have to kill them. That is where the arrogance really comes in and where we lose our humanity.
(28:18):
So boy, that path that they pointed that Archbishop Tutu and the peace and reconciliation,
I mean, we had never seen anything like that. And those families, those wonderful families that
attended, heard what they did to their loved ones, and then were willing not to ask violence be done
(28:38):
to them. Those are real heroes, I think of that. And it just shows us as human beings what can be
done. And we can be more than we are, all of us. Wow, that's so great. Okay, I want to ask you again
about Jesus. So I'm a big name dropper, as you know. I want to ask you about the passage that
(28:59):
I've been working on for about 10 or 15 years, which is, I think, Luke 10, where he sends the
72 ahead. And I want to say a word about it and then just ask you to tell me anything you think
about it. Why am I asking you this? Once, years ago, one of our visits at a party or an event,
(29:21):
you said to me as I was leaving, isn't it great, John, to be on mission? And I loved that, Helen.
And no one had ever said that to me before. And like, we knew the Barragans, wow, were they on a
mission, but they wouldn't use that word. So in Luke 10, Jesus sends the 72 out in pairs ahead of
(29:42):
him. He's like a, I always joke that Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. I don't know if I'm
allowed to say that. Okay, thank you. Okay, yeah, Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. Go ahead,
John. So I know it's a setback. So he says, I'm sending you out like lambs into the midst of
(30:02):
wolves. Wow. And you got three things. You're to heal the victims of violence. Wow. You're to expel
the demons of violence. Okay, you don't need to kill people anymore and so forth. And you're to
proclaim God's reign of peace and love and justice. And they come back rejoicing, and he rejoices.
(30:23):
And I came to the conclusion, Helen, it's the only time in the four gospels where the poor guy
is happy. Because they did what he wanted. They were doing, so how do you, what do you think of
that passage? And how do you think about, we're all kind of really being sent on a mission into
our culture of violence to proclaim the reign of God. And what do you think about that?
(30:49):
Right. But you know what has struck me recently more and more is that expelling of demons seems
so weird to us. You know, demons got these demons. Although, boy, before legislation,
you hear people getting up, making these arguments about the death penalty. I mean,
they're possessed of this whole thing of we've got to do it this way. And their own political careers
(31:13):
are tied to it, see? And that's what makes it so, it is like a demon. And the other thing about
Jesus sending them out with no food, no knapsack, no purse, no why, because they're going to depend
on community. And when violence erupts in our society, like think of gang members killing
(31:36):
people to be initiated into the gang. It's because they need community, they need family.
And you think of people that have worked with gangs and people like that, but it's to belong
in some way. So when you belong to a community, and I think this, we can't do justice for longer
than a weekend to be on mission, for longer than a weekend without our community of support. I mean,
(32:02):
I was just with lawyers, human rights lawyers over at my friend, Denny LaBuff's house,
that are defending the people in Guantanamo, you know, the mastermind of the 9-11 murders,
the people who did 9-11. And there they are, and we all haven't suffered together. These great women,
(32:23):
three great women, then we were together, and they are defending people that everybody, almost
everybody in the world will say are indefensible. But the victims of 9-11, the families for a
peaceful tomorrow are very aware that getting the death penalty for people in Guantanamo is not the
(32:46):
answer for their peace. And so the whole thing of sending you out and look two by two, you don't do
it alone. You always, I was just thanking Sister Margaret again today for being with me for 25
years. We've been doing this. And she's right there at my side, and we're doing it together,
you know, and we do it in community. And that helps us be peaceful, because if we're out there alone
(33:13):
and we feel they're coming after us, that's what makes us fine with the defense.
Nat. Oh, that's wonderful, Helen. Thank you. Now...
Helen. There'll be no charge.
Nat. Oh, there'll be a small charge. Now, I'm not going to ask you to talk about this. I want to
still talk about the women by the cross of Jesus. You've accompanied, I think, seven men to their
(33:38):
deaths on death row. Helen.
Eight men. Helen.
Just another man in Texas. Nat.
And you witnessed their executions, which I can't even ponder. And I can't because of my PTSD
in El Salvador. But in terms of the gospel, I see you in the lineage of the holy women
who stood with Jesus as He died on the cross, a victim of the death penalty, capital punishment
(34:01):
by the Roman Empire for the capital crime of stirring up revolution. Could you share some
thoughts about that image? And it's part of the call or the life, I suppose, of standing in
of standing in solidarity, grieving, accompaniment with the world's poor, the world's condemned,
(34:23):
with Christ being killed today. Any thoughts on that?
Helen. Yeah, what a grace. What a privilege, John.
Like I was with Ivan Cantu in the execution chamber. I was standing right close to him
and praying into his ear as they killed him. And what a grace that is. I mean, people look at me
(34:45):
as this. Oh, wow. You're so brave to do that. They are brave. They are the ones in graves doing it.
And Ivan's last words were to the victims family. I didn't kill your son and daughter if I'd known
who did it. I mean, the thing's so bloody broken. And then to be able to be there and see it's the
(35:05):
presence, it's the accompaniment. I don't actually add that much to their life. I just reinforce in
him there and then that faith that's already there. And it's such and you know what? I guess the
reason I'm not burnt out on all this and walking away saying I'm never doing that again is the
(35:28):
mission I received from them, the mandate. I can't walk away from the death of Ivan Cantu or the death
of Pat Sonia or the death of Robert Lee Willie and Willie Philstein and Dobie Williams and just say,
oh, that's too painful. I'm not doing that anymore. I have been a witness. And when you're a witness,
(35:50):
as Elie Wiesel put it, witnesses have a mandate and a mission and a charge to tell people and
bring them close to what they have seen so people's hearts can change.
That's so beautiful. I want to ask you about the resurrection of the nonviolent Jesus. And I forgot
(36:12):
to bring it, but at the end of my collection of our friend Daniel Berrigan's writings,
called Daniel Berrigan Essential Writing, I put in this very, very obscure passage I found. I
forgot to bring it, but it goes something like this. You can't run an empire and use death as
a social methodology if you have these crazies running around saying, hey, our guy's not dead.
(36:41):
And so, he wrote, you go and look up that, Pat. It's so funny, but it's so obvious now,
like, because death is it. That's all they got to put it. So, you know, how do you understand
resurrection? Of course, I want to tell you my take, which is resurrection means having nothing
to do with death and nothing to do with violence and therefore nonviolence and really we're getting
(37:06):
for resurrection and we're helping people move to the new life of resurrection.
Where are you thinking these days about the resurrection of Jesus and the meaning for it
for all of us now?
First of all, the great, great insight, which I got through John Dominic Crossend of the Eastern
Church's whole approach to the resurrection. So, we've always thought of it, or I tended to,
(37:29):
as an individual resurrection. Jesus was resurrected from the dead, so we're going to
be too. And we picture in our little ego self, surviving death, but yet just being ego us.
It's all about me, right? I survive. And just shows in those early, early paintings consistently
(37:49):
in the Eastern Church of Jesus pulling up Adam and Eve with him, pulling up. He descended into
hell that passage and we resurrect in community. We do it together. It's not about this individualized
ego being resurrected. So, if we begin to learn to love others now, and I have to tell you that I
(38:14):
have actually witnessed, like I'm thinking of Ivan Cantu, who was just killed in Texas, February 28.
He was a free man inside. He was facing the anxiety and fear of his death. I said,
Ivan, how are you? He goes, well, I'm anxious. I said, well, Jesus was anxious too. How can you
not be anxious? You're a human being. This is really a big, big step from which there's no coming
(38:38):
back. But he had that will, that freedom within him, which you can sense is resurrection.
That's great. I want to, because we're at our time, I just want to ask you two little questions,
which of course are ridiculous. Yeah, look, I know you squeeze it in too.
I know what you're doing. I know what you're doing.
(38:59):
He's not a John Wayne Jesus. Okay. I want to ask you about Dr. King and I want to ask you about the
nonviolent Jesus. Okay. So, this month when this is broadcast is the 100th birthday of Dr. King.
And you know, I'm such a fanatic of Dr. King, our great teacher, and it just melts me every time you
tell me the story. So, I want you to tell everyone again the story in honor of the great man's 100th
(39:25):
birthday of the time you met him in the airport. Yeah, at O'Hare. I was actually, I was coming home
for the Christmas holidays. And then when I read his story, I knew he was coming from Cicero, Illinois,
Illinois. It was the most hateful community. They marched in the streets, they threw bricks at him,
(39:47):
they spit at him. He was just coming out of that. And lo and behold, I'm standing in line.
At the O'Hare airport? Yeah, it was O'Hare. I remember I was in Chicago.
So, it's like 1966 or 67. Yeah, it would have been December of 66,
because I was going home for Christmas, I remember. And I see him in line, he's behind me.
(40:14):
And I said, I think that's daggone Warren Luther King right there. And you know, I hadn't done
anything in the civil rights movement. I learned to play my guitar, to answer my friend who's
blowing in the wind. I was not awakened yet to social justice. I didn't do beans in the civil
rights. Okay. And that's where compassion comes in too, because it took me so long to get awake,
(40:40):
John. I was in my 40s when I finally woke up to social justice. Okay. But anyway, I see him there.
And I was ahead of him in line. So I got out of line, I went back to him. And I took his hand,
and he looked so tired. And if you see him in pictures of airport, he's dropping off asleep.
It was so tiring, not just the action itself of what they were doing, but all the community
(41:05):
struggles they were having. And I said, are you Martin Luther King? And he said, yes, sister.
He says, I said, oh, I said, I so appreciate what you're doing. And I'm praying for you. And he
took my hand and he pressed it warmly, said, thank you, sister. We need prayers. We need prayers so
bad. And then I went and got back in the line. I went, I just met Martin Luther King. But when
(41:30):
I really met him was when I moved in among poor people in the inner city of New Orleans and read
his life. That's when I met him. Thank you, Helen. So, you know, thank you for being here and talking
about all of these wonderful things and sharing your life with everyone. Any last thoughts,
(41:50):
suggestions, tips about following the nonviolent Jesus? It's fresh. It's always ongoing. I mean,
like the meditation today, we're in Advent, and it's Matthew who's the one who gives us,
his name will be Jesus, and he's Emmanuel, the one who uses that. And then that identification,
(42:12):
and where is he? Where is he? He's with the poor. He's with the homeless. He's with the people in
prison. And it's always fresh for us, the invitation to go live it anew and help Christ be born.
Because if we don't help Christ be born with our hands and our eyes and our actions and our books
and our whatever we do, Christ doesn't live except enough. That's my thing. Keep it fresh.
(42:38):
Thank you so much, sister Helen. Pray, John, for speaking with me.
Helen Great to talk to you, John, as always.
John Thank you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear more
podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter.org. And you can also offer
their comments and feedback and make a donation to support this free work. Join me next week when
(43:03):
my guest will be Father Richard Rohr talking about his new book on the prophets. May the God of peace
bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus like sister Helen. See you next time.
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