February 16, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode, hosts Jim Bennett and Ian Voparil delve into wake effects in offshore wind energy, exploring how they influence turbine efficiency and ocean circulation. We are joined by Jessica O'Connor from DNV and Dr. Kaus Raghukumar from Integral Consulting and together, we unpack the implications for farm layout, system controls, project economics, and even the ramifications for policy. Our discussion highlights the need for innovative modeling to optimize offshore wind projects and further scientific exploration of the coupling between the atmosphere and oceans.
• Discussion of wake effects and their significance
• Impact on energy production and cost efficiency
• Role of turbine placement in maximizing output
• Implications for ocean currents and marine ecosystems
• Advanced modeling techniques for predicting wake interactions
• Future trends in turbine design and environmental considerations
• Importance of integrating scientific knowledge into policy decisions
• Encouragement for continued research in offshore wind energy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey everyone, did you know that the success or
failure of an offshore windproject could come down to a key
factor that you might notexpect Wake effects.
A spinning turbine often slowsdown the wind, can mess with the
strength and consistency of thewind.
For a project under design, itcan be a game changer.
(00:30):
It's one of the trickiest andleast well-known challenges in
wind farm design.
So why does that matter?
Well, let's dive into it on theOffshore Energy Podcast right
now.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I'm Jim Bennett and I have over 40 years of
experience developing energy inthe ocean.
I'm Ian Valpero and I've spentthe last 20 years developing
offshore energy projects aroundthe world, and this is the
Offshore Energy Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Hello Ian, are you there hey?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Jim, how are you?
I am fantastic.
Good afternoon.
Happy Valentine's Day, jim.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh, that's right, it's Valentine's Day.
I've already got a dozen rosestaken care of.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That's right.
There are things to take careof before Valentine's Day and
I'm glad to hear you have.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I think we both still have some snow on the ground,
although I have a lot less downhere in Virginia than you have
up in Maine.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yep, Jim, it's still winter up here, so I've been
dreaming of hot, sunny days andwarm, breezy nights.
In other words, I've beendreaming about more solar and
wind power too.
Nice transition, huh.
In 2024, the European Union sawmore power generated by solar
and wind than from fossil fuels.
In the US, wind and solargenerate about 18% of our power.
(02:02):
Currently, China and even SaudiArabia are growing their solar
and wind industries at a fastclip because every nation around
the world expects their energydemand to grow over the next few
decades, and solar and wind,particularly onshore and on land
, are faster and cheaper todevelop than power plants using
fossil fuels in most parts ofthe world.
(02:24):
Now, not every nation caresabout the decarbonization value
of solar and wind.
They just want inexpensive,reliable, predictable energy in
time to meet their nation'sdemands.
Jim, your teaser really piquedmy interest, because I don't
know a lot about wake effects inand around wind farms and I
certainly don't know about themoffshore in the ocean.
(02:46):
But if they affect power outputso much, I'd sure love to learn
more.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Well, we're very fortunate that we have a couple
of people here today that willhelp us work our way through
this, because it is a verytechnical issue and it is very
much more involved than I knowmy background is sufficient for,
so maybe we could introduce ourguests.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
We have joining us today Jessica O'Connor from DNV,
and we've got Kaus Raghu Kumarfrom Integral Consulting too.
How are you guys?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Doing great.
Thanks, Ian.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
I'm good, Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Ian and Jim, would you like to do a quick
introduction?
Tell our listeners why you arefantastic to have on this.
Jessica, why don't you go first?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So I am the business development lead for DNV's
Offshore Wind Advisory Servicesin North America.
Most folks are familiar withDNV's involvement in project
financing, due diligence andproject certification.
Involvement in projectfinancing, due diligence and
project certification.
I sit on the advisory side.
I support developers, oems andother agencies in offshore wind
projects.
My background is 18 years inthe wind industry and really my
(03:56):
experience has always been wherethe wind meets the machine and
that is in site suitability,site-specific mechanical loading
and energy resource assessments.
That's the topic we're talkingabout today and as business
development lead now I'mcompletely focused on offshore
wind and it's a really funproject for me, as well as
(04:18):
moderating our offshore windtraining program.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Sounds like just the right background to help Jim and
I navigate this space.
And Kaus, it's great to see youagain.
Kaus, how about your backgroundand why you've been invited to
join us here?
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I'm a physical oceanographer and underwater
acoustician.
At Integral Consulting, I workon a variety of problems related
to environmental effects ofmarine energy that range from,
say, changes in oceancirculation around offshore
energy structures to underwatersound radiated by these
structures.
(04:53):
I use tools such as in-situmeasurements, acoustic
propagation model, large-scalephysical circulation models
whatever tool suits the job.
And the question we're askingreally is what effects, if any,
positive or negative, arise fromoffshore energy installations.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
The topic of our podcast today is going to be
around wind, wake effects andinteractions with the ocean, so
I'm so glad we have you guysboth here.
For many of our listeners, thisseems a little bit like a
technical podcast, right, jim,and I often don't dive into
technical details.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I'd like to note that in the development of the
program early on, there were alot of technical issues that we
simply weren't able to fullyaddress, and this is certainly
one of them.
In fact, the first time I heardabout it I was kind of rolling
my eyes.
I said you know, the ocean'spretty big place and the
(05:55):
airspace above the ocean and thewind, they're pretty big spaces
too.
It's kind of hard to believe itwould have an effect.
Well, I got educated over sometime and it's one of these
issues that has a very strongtechnical basis.
But that technical basis feedsinto the development of policy
(06:16):
and it feeds into how decisionsare made about what areas
offshore can be offeredappropriately and how they
should be configured.
So it's another example ofwhere the technical feeds into
the policy structure.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I've heard anecdotally that these wake
effects amongst turbines andbetween turbines can be really
quite significant.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butI've heard things like 10 to 20%
.
Am I in the right ballparkthere?
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Very close.
We say that the inter-arraywake effects can be about a 10%
reduction or up to 10% reductionof energy production and then
an up to 30% reduction inarray-to-array effects.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Definitely significant and that goes to the
point about the education thatI got is that this is not a
small thing, it's a big thing.
It's a very big thing in termsof wind farm design.
That's right.
Terms of wind farm designthat's right.
Given that information, let'sask the basic question why do
(07:37):
wakes?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
matter.
What is at stake here?
And, jessica, maybe you couldhelp us with that a little bit.
Yeah, sure, really, it allcomes down to dollars and cents.
It impacts directly thelevelized cost of energy and
this impacts that by impactingour grid planning, project
financing and then, of course,eventually the cost to the rate
payer and so wakes.
(07:58):
They can both reduce the amountof energy but also increase the
mechanical loading in the windturbine.
So when we're planning for ourproject, we want to maximize for
wind production and minimizefor mechanical loading, and that
is an iterative process.
Process and both of thosethings throughout that iterative
(08:19):
process directly affects ourdevelopment expenses, our
capital expenses and ouroperations expenses.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Okay, so walk us through this conversion of wind
through a turbine intomechanical energy and then an
output of power that ultimatelygets sold into the grid.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So in a very simplistic form, first we want
to find what the energy is inthe free stream, so pretending
that there are no wind turbinesin there.
We want to take publiclyavailable long-term data,
whether it's measured or it'sreanalysis data, and that gives
us that free stream wind speed.
(08:58):
We apply that to the windturbine's power curve and then
from there we have an energyyield value.
But then we need to apply thelosses, and there are losses
like electrical losses,availability so we know that O&M
is going to create a certainkind of availability.
(09:18):
And then wakes, and there arebasically three kinds of wakes.
One is that turbine to turbineinteraction.
The next, which has had a lotof research, is blockage.
And then the third isarray-to-array wakes, and for
(09:40):
offshore wind it is much more ofan impact because of that
atmospheric stability.
On land we have more of anunstable situation where the
atmosphere is able to mix, buton the ocean we do not.
It stays quite stable and sothose long-distance wakes travel
(10:00):
a lot farther.
So from wind energy 1.0,onshore wind, and we need to
improve our measuring andmodeling techniques.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
When you said blockage, that was something
it's not a term that I'mfamiliar with in this context.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
As the wind approaches a very large array,
it kind of slows down.
So it's kind of like when youput your foot in the water and a
wave is coming towards yourfoot, it kind of slows down
before it hits your foot.
And that's what's happening inthe atmosphere is the wind slows
down before it meets the array,and that loss can be up to 4%
(10:51):
of energy production.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
How do you deal with the uncertainty and the losses
that are associated with thewind resource in the context of
an offshore wind project?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
We want to maximize the energy, minimize the loading
.
Both can be affected by wakes.
So we want to maximize theenergy by maybe having larger
rotors, having more windturbines within the array,
putting the wind turbines in themost energetic locations.
But then we want to minimizethe loading.
(11:23):
So that means we need to spreadout the wind turbines and maybe
reduce the rotor size.
But then when you'reintroducing wakes, those larger
rotors also bring down theenergy.
So it's this very delicatebalance of rotor size, spacing,
location and then even yourcontrols algorithms, so
(11:46):
different kinds of pitchschedules and yaw schedules to
treat the wakes or make thewakes act differently within
their ray.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Jessica explain pitch and yaw for those of us who
don't always work in threedimensions.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah.
So a pitch is when the windturbine blade is spinning back
and forth to catch the wind in avery particular way.
So the blade is like anairplane wing and it is affected
by the wind.
It has drag and lift.
Well, that airfoil as itchanges, as it changes how it
(12:30):
faces the wind, it changes howfast the blade is spinning
around.
So we want to change the pitchin order to have the wind
turbine spinning at differentspeeds.
Yaw is when the whole nacelleis going from north to maybe
west.
And that is changing usuallywith the direction of the wind
(12:52):
speed, the freestream wind speed, and for the case of wakes you
might want to be a little bitoff kilter so that the wakes
meander kind of differently anddon't hit the wind turbines
directly downwind that ordownwind that makes a lot of
sense to me.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
So when you're thinking about the potential for
wake effects, so when you'rethinking about the potential for
wake effects, you're thinkingabout the spacing between
individual turbines in a windfarm, where you put them, you're
thinking about if you'remaximizing power output, you're
(13:27):
thinking about how an individualturbine is oriented facing into
the wind or perhaps slightlyoff the wind if there's
something behind it, and you'realso determining how to orient
the blades in respect to thewind.
I mean, there are so manydifferent levels of control here
that it must be a lot ofcomplexity for an operator to
(13:50):
deal with.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
And I actually have one more control that we have
and that is the location ofthese arrays.
So, like in the New York byte,the wind speed is directly north
and south and all of the arraysare aligned north and south.
Now there isn't a whole lot wecan do about that, but we do
know that there's going to bethese long distance wake effects
(14:12):
because of the way that they'rearranged, so there could be
that planning.
That happens a little bitearlier in the development state
.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So you're saying that that was one of the earliest
leases that we issued, and Ithink what I'm hearing you say
is that, in the absence of morethorough knowledge about wake
effects, we probably have anarray and a configuration which
might be less than optimal.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, that orientation of the farms that was done from
a I'm sorry from a regulatoryperspective, right, because it
wanted to be predictable forship traffic, or from a
regulatory perspective right,because it wanted to be
predictable for ship traffic orit was more than regulatory.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
but yes, it was a lot of different factors involved
and what I'm hearing is that thefactor about wake effects,
which definitely was consideredin later leases, maybe didn't
play as thorough a role as itshould have.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, and in fact just after the New York bite
auction, that's when a lot ofthe research about long distance
wakes really started to comeout of Europe, and so there
wasn't a whole lot ofinformation about the types of
modeling that could actuallycapture what those wake losses
could be.
But now we do know a lot betterthose wake losses could be.
But now we do know a lot better.
And we also have all of theseother site constraints beyond
(15:38):
the wind resource that we needto consider, so it's a much
bigger picture.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And Kals, we want to bring you into this conversation
too.
We've been discussing howturbines can impact the flow of
wind, and you know all about howthe flow of wind affects the
movement of the oceans, thesurface currents.
Can you explain to ourlisteners some of the key
factors in those interactions?
Speaker 4 (16:03):
With an offshore wind farm, the awakes that are
created in the lee of each windturbine.
They kind of accumulate overthe size of the wind farm and
the end result is that, like thewake behind an array of wind
turbines, can be tens to or toclose to 100 kilometers or more.
(16:26):
The question we've been askingat INEGRAL is whether this
region of reduction behindregional wind speed reduction
behind a wind farm, can thisreduction affect wind-driven
ocean circulation?
Because fundamentally, surfacecirculation or surface movement
of water masses in the ocean iswind-driven and if there's a
(16:50):
reduction in wind speed fromwhatever, process would this
affect surface circulation?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Does this potential you know the wake effects of
turbines have a real potentialto be significantly important to
the ocean, or is it just lostin the noise that the ocean
signals?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Essentially, if the physical scale of the wake
behind a wind farm is on theorder of several tens of
kilometers at typical latitudeswhere wind farms are currently
being installed, then thecirculation at those scales is
(17:35):
affected by the Earth's rotationand the change in circulation
does start to feelrotation-related effects.
So one example is typicallywhen winds blow in a near
constant speed or direction overthe ocean's surface, it leads
(17:59):
to a transport of surface watersand, counterintuitively, the
direction at which those surfacewaters are transported is not
downstream of the wind but at anangle to the wind.
And if the surface waters aremoving offshore, it's replaced
by cool, deep, nutrient-richwaters from deeper water, which
(18:23):
then leads to a pretty thrivingecosystem in some regions of the
world.
So it's a question worth askingis whether the changes in ocean
circulation at the surface, forwhatever reason, can affect
that ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm also thinking of, like the coast of California.
Isn't that one of theseecosystems where we do see that
that's the way it often works?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Exactly.
There's really two differenteffects.
One is, yeah, as you mentioned,when, like on the coast of
California, where the windspredominantly blow from the
Northwest to the Southeast, thiswake if offshore wind farms
were to be located off the coastof California, the wake will be
(19:13):
to the south and the movementof surface waters to the right
or offshore in California itdoes lead to what's called an
upwelling ecosystem, where youhave really rich and by rich I
mean rich in nutrients surfacewaters which would support a
(19:35):
pretty healthy ecosystem.
The other effect is when youhave, as you go, say, from east
to the west or west to the east,horizontally along the surface
of the ocean.
If you were to encounter achange in wind speeds, that
(19:56):
gradient can also drive amovement of surface waters and
either upwelling of deeperwaters or downwelling of deeper
waters, which can have both apositive and a negative effect
offshore winds been around for awhile in the North Sea, and so
is that a similar situation overthere, or how can we judge
(20:20):
where in the world this shouldbe?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
you know, studied enough of potential exploration.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah.
And so as long as you have.
Uh, uh, uh wakes behind thewind farm, uh behind an offshore
wind farm, you can expect thereto be wake-driven effects to
ocean circulation.
The question is, just how strongis that signal of the wind farm
(20:50):
driven ocean circulation effectabove the noise of general
ocean circulation or changes inocean circulation due to climate
change or warming of ocean orthe general warming of ocean
temperatures?
So in some cases where you havea really clean signal so the
(21:14):
modeling studies that have beendone off of California do have a
characteristic of a reallyclean signal because the winds
tend to predominantly blow inone direction and you can run
the models over a long enoughtime that you can start to see
signals that emerge above thenoise.
It's a lot easier to see theeffect.
In other cases, like the NorthSea, the signal might get mixed
(21:38):
by several other confoundingfactors and you might not even
see that signal above the noise.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Okay, so how do we bring this all together?
Tell us about the modeling, ifyou would, between the
oceanographic models and theirinterface with the
meteorological models, so thatwe feel like we're in a pretty
good position to know what'sactually going on out there.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
So there are two ways that we need to understand this
, or two methods to understandthis, and that is through
measurements and throughmodeling, and the measurements
feed into the modeling andactually likewise the modeling
feeds into the measurementschemes.
So first, with measurements foroffshore wind, we are deploying
(22:26):
a floating lidar or a buoy thathas lidar on it, and then for
Klaus, it would have a bunch ofand he'll be able to speak to
this better than I wouldoceanographic measurement
equipment below the sea surface,and so it's really great when a
state deploys this.
That way, a developer can takethat data and then do their own
(22:50):
modeling, both using linear flowmodel, but then also
computational fluid dynamics andother types of mesoscale
modeling and Kaus.
I know you know some more aboutsome modeling, so I'll let you
take it from there.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
So the same model, same atmospheric model, which
are used to predict wake lossesor wake effects behind wind
turbines, also provide what areknown as the forcing fields, or
one of the inputs that go intoocean circulation models, which
is wind speeds or wind stressesat the ocean surface.
So essentially, the way thesestudies are conducted is you run
(23:31):
an ocean circulation withatmospheric fields in the
absence of wind turbines over along period of time, and then
you go back and introduceturbines into your atmospheric
model, compute the wind fieldsand then you rerun your same
ocean model over the same periodof time with this modified wind
field and you can then start tolook at effects of any.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And that is actually how we observe that there are
wake effects in the energyproduction.
So we can measure theproduction before any other wind
turbines or arrays are nearbyand then when they are installed
.
So we're introducing those windturbines.
We then know what those lossesend up being and therefore we're
(24:19):
able to calibrate our models.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Jessica Kaus, are we talking spreadsheet modeling
that I can do or are we talkingabout much more detail?
When you talk about thesemesoscale models?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
It's a lot of Bernoulli's equations.
A major model that is used formeasuring wake effects in a much
more computational, heavy wayis computational fluid dynamics,
so some sort of flow model.
But then you want to take intoconsideration all of the
(24:56):
atmospheric parameters thataffect the wind speed and how
the wind interacts withdifferent surfaces, and that's
when we're looking at the windresearch, weather research and
forecasting tools.
So WARF is what we call it, andat DMV we couple those two
types of models and that givesus a very complicated scheme of
data that I am not an expert in,but it has been validated
(25:20):
against the wind projects inEurope.
So I find it exciting.
Though it's not exactly myexpertise, I do like listening
to those in my team.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I do like listening to those in my team.
Yeah, the mathematics that gointo either the mesoscale
atmospheric models or the oceanmodels are actually identical
but they differ in that they canmake different simplifying
(25:53):
assumptions to be able to solvethese equations in a
computationally efficient andtimely manner.
So, for example, in an oceanmodel you take in temperature,
you take in salinitydistributions in the ocean and
you see how differences intemperature and salinity affect
density of the ocean.
And when you have changes indensity then it can lead to
(26:13):
water masses flowing fromregions of higher pressure to
lower pressure, with pressuredifferences being driven by
changes in density, for example.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
In the future, as we expect to see turbine sizes
increasing, particularlyoffshore, would you expect wake
effects and ocean interactionsto become more pronounced or
less pronounced?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
It's definitely a push and pull.
So you are able to extract moreenergy out of the wind when you
have a larger swept area, butthat larger swept area is also
taking the momentum out of thatwind speed and taking the energy
out of the wind for the nextwinter.
Right the wind turbinedownstream, but also having
(26:58):
newer designs in blade lengthsand airfoils and all the
different ways that we try toimprove our wind turbines, it
actually also introduces a levelof uncertainty and investors
don't like uncertainty.
So it's a push and pull of.
We want to maximize how much weget out of the energy, but we
(27:18):
also want to minimize risk.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
We know you're each involved in R&D efforts and
additional science programs tohelp the offshore wind industry
get better, more efficient, moreenvironmentally responsible and
more affordable.
Where do you see these key nextsteps of improvement coming
from?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Through operations.
So the more we have windturbines operating, such as in
the North Sea, we're learning somuch like the long-distance
wakes on how the wind turbinescan survive in ocean conditions
and how different designs areaffected in ocean conditions,
(28:00):
and so the more we expose ourtechnology in these different
environments, the more we'regoing to learn about how they
should be designed, built,installed, operated be designed,
built, installed, operated, andthere's innovation and
improvement in that regard.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, and then in terms of modeling environmental
effects, there's two maindirections where a lot of
research is currently being doneor needs to be done.
The first is better.
The first is better modeling,or understanding what the wake
behind the structures themselvesare.
As a colleague once told me,flow around a cylindrical
(28:45):
structure is one of the mostwell-studied problems in fluid
mechanics, but as soon as youadd stratification, no one seems
to know anything.
So that's currently an activearea of research.
Vineyard Wind actually isfunding a study called Ocean
Wakes, which is looking at thisparticular problem specifically.
(29:07):
The second area of research islooking at this feedback between
the ocean onto the atmosphere.
So essentially running ordeveloping atmospheric models
that take into account changesin surface roughness at the
bottom and changes intemperature at the bottom, which
(29:29):
can affect the weight losscalculations that Jessica is
interested in.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Actually, that's a really good point because when I
was talking about the freestream wind, that free stream
wind is affected by the surfaceroughness.
And even though Ian said thatthe ocean is flat, it does have
a roughness to it.
It's flatter than land, but itstill has a roughness to it.
It's flatter than land, but itstill has a roughness, and we do
need to know that.
And likewise with thetemperature, we can make
(29:57):
assumptions as to what thesurface of the ocean, surface
temperature is, but the morewe're able to measure and model
it, the better we can model theatmospheric conditions and,
ultimately, the wake effects.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
I can't help but look at it from a public policy
standpoint.
It's not just the accumulationof the knowledge in a way that
leads to better technicaldecisions, but it also is the
use of the knowledge to makebetter policy decisions, and
decisions about things like areaID and what works and what will
(30:37):
work best.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And I can advocate for both DNV's efforts in
measurement and modeling andHouse's integral modeling and
measuring.
That all of that affectsuncertainties.
The better we get at measuring,the better we get at modeling,
the better we can reduce theuncertainty and the cheaper it
(31:05):
would be to borrow that moneyand then ultimately bring down
the cost of energy.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
The program is working the way it was supposed
to work.
We do not know we're notpretending to know everything.
There are so many areas andthis is one of them where we're
learning things and feeding thatback into the decision-making
process.
So we have our ups and downs.
We have our political changes,if you will.
(31:32):
That's going to have an effecton things.
Have our political changes, ifyou will.
That's going to have an effecton things.
But overall, we're feedinginformation back into the
process to make better decisionson a technical basis and make
better decisions on a policybasis.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Thank you, guys, but we normally end with any last
drops in the ocean for ourlisteners and that's a chance to
just mention any other thingsaround the offshore energy topic
that might be going on in yourworld as our guests.
Jessica, would you like to gofirst?
Any last drops for this week?
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Sure.
So, going off of what Jim saidabout policy matters in the
federal government, we're seeinga lot of change in policy and
funding toward the things thatwe care about.
So I'm going to say let's watchthe states.
Watch what the states are doingfunding research and
development, having plans forofftake and then even having
(32:27):
potential offshore winddevelopment in the state waters.
So I say, watch the states winddevelopment in the state waters
.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
So I say, watch the states.
The first, following onJessica's comment about the
states, is California, for onejust passed Assembly Bill 472.
(32:58):
That includes the developmentof ports to service offshore
wind in their definition ofinfrastructure and to
essentially incorporate offshorewind development into
infrastructure planning.
The second drop is kind of ashout out to this National
Academies panel which released areport on potential effects of
(33:18):
offshore wind on the ecology ofthe Nantucket Shoals.
I was lucky enough to be a partof that academy panel and that
report is out and in the publicdomain for those who want to
look it up.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Hey, great, we'll include a link in the show notes
.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, I've already repeated what would constitute
my last drops the points aboutlook to the states, the points
about the definition ofinfrastructure.
These are great points and I'mgoing to turn it right back to
you, ian, as far as a last dropis concerned.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Ian, as far as a last drop is concerned, I've got two
last drops.
One is a recent report you mayhave seen.
Texas's main grid operator,ercot, forecasts that the
state's growing demand for powercould surpass its existing
available energy supplybeginning in not 10 years, not
five years, but next year duringthe summer.
(34:13):
So that's awfully interestingto look at.
Here comes fast renewables tothe rescue, I have a feeling.
And second, I just wanted tosay if at any point during this
podcast I mentioned the Gulf ofMexico, of course I meant the
Gulf of America.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
You're on the record there.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Ian, I think we need to ask our listeners to give us
some feedback.
Tell us if we're in the rightplace here, tell us what you're
thinking about the podcast andwhat we might want to be doing
better, and, if you have topics,send them to us.
And, like today, theopportunity to have such great
(34:57):
special guests like we just hadin Jessica and Klaas it would be
terrific.
I hope you've enjoyedparticipating and I really do
appreciate you joining us.
(35:18):
Yeah, thank you guys.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, thanks for the invite.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And until we meet again on the next Offshore
Energy Podcast.
Hey everyone, did you know that the success or
failure of an offshore windproject could come down to a key
factor that you might notexpect Wake effects.
A spinning turbine often slowsdown the wind, can mess with the
strength and consistency of thewind.
For a project under design, itcan be a game changer.
(00:30):
It's one of the trickiest andleast well-known challenges in
wind farm design.
So why does that matter?
Well, let's dive into it on theOffshore Energy Podcast right
now.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I'm Jim Bennett and I have over 40 years of
experience developing energy inthe ocean.
I'm Ian Valpero and I've spentthe last 20 years developing
offshore energy projects aroundthe world, and this is the
Offshore Energy Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Hello Ian, are you there hey?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Jim, how are you?
I am fantastic.
Good afternoon.
Happy Valentine's Day, jim.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh, that's right, it's Valentine's Day.
I've already got a dozen rosestaken care of.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That's right.
There are things to take careof before Valentine's Day and
I'm glad to hear you have.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I think we both still have some snow on the ground,
although I have a lot less downhere in Virginia than you have
up in Maine.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yep, Jim, it's still winter up here, so I've been
dreaming of hot, sunny days andwarm, breezy nights.
In other words, I've beendreaming about more solar and
wind power too.
Nice transition, huh.
In 2024, the European Union sawmore power generated by solar
and wind than from fossil fuels.
In the US, wind and solargenerate about 18% of our power.
(02:02):
Currently, China and even SaudiArabia are growing their solar
and wind industries at a fastclip because every nation around
the world expects their energydemand to grow over the next few
decades, and solar and wind,particularly onshore and on land
, are faster and cheaper todevelop than power plants using
fossil fuels in most parts ofthe world.
(02:24):
Now, not every nation caresabout the decarbonization value
of solar and wind.
They just want inexpensive,reliable, predictable energy in
time to meet their nation'sdemands.
Jim, your teaser really piquedmy interest, because I don't
know a lot about wake effects inand around wind farms and I
certainly don't know about themoffshore in the ocean.
(02:46):
But if they affect power outputso much, I'd sure love to learn
more.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Well, we're very fortunate that we have a couple
of people here today that willhelp us work our way through
this, because it is a verytechnical issue and it is very
much more involved than I knowmy background is sufficient for,
so maybe we could introduce ourguests.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
We have joining us today Jessica O'Connor from DNV,
and we've got Kaus Raghu Kumarfrom Integral Consulting too.
How are you guys?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Doing great.
Thanks, Ian.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
I'm good, Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Ian and Jim, would you like to do a quick
introduction?
Tell our listeners why you arefantastic to have on this.
Jessica, why don't you go first?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So I am the business development lead for DNV's
Offshore Wind Advisory Servicesin North America.
Most folks are familiar withDNV's involvement in project
financing, due diligence andproject certification.
Involvement in projectfinancing, due diligence and
project certification.
I sit on the advisory side.
I support developers, oems andother agencies in offshore wind
projects.
My background is 18 years inthe wind industry and really my
(03:56):
experience has always been wherethe wind meets the machine and
that is in site suitability,site-specific mechanical loading
and energy resource assessments.
That's the topic we're talkingabout today and as business
development lead now I'mcompletely focused on offshore
wind and it's a really funproject for me, as well as
(04:18):
moderating our offshore windtraining program.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Sounds like just the right background to help Jim and
I navigate this space.
And Kaus, it's great to see youagain.
Kaus, how about your backgroundand why you've been invited to
join us here?
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I'm a physical oceanographer and underwater
acoustician.
At Integral Consulting, I workon a variety of problems related
to environmental effects ofmarine energy that range from,
say, changes in oceancirculation around offshore
energy structures to underwatersound radiated by these
structures.
(04:53):
I use tools such as in-situmeasurements, acoustic
propagation model, large-scalephysical circulation models
whatever tool suits the job.
And the question we're askingreally is what effects, if any,
positive or negative, arise fromoffshore energy installations.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
The topic of our podcast today is going to be
around wind, wake effects andinteractions with the ocean, so
I'm so glad we have you guysboth here.
For many of our listeners, thisseems a little bit like a
technical podcast, right, jim,and I often don't dive into
technical details.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I'd like to note that in the development of the
program early on, there were alot of technical issues that we
simply weren't able to fullyaddress, and this is certainly
one of them.
In fact, the first time I heardabout it I was kind of rolling
my eyes.
I said you know, the ocean'spretty big place and the
(05:55):
airspace above the ocean and thewind, they're pretty big spaces
too.
It's kind of hard to believe itwould have an effect.
Well, I got educated over sometime and it's one of these
issues that has a very strongtechnical basis.
But that technical basis feedsinto the development of policy
(06:16):
and it feeds into how decisionsare made about what areas
offshore can be offeredappropriately and how they
should be configured.
So it's another example ofwhere the technical feeds into
the policy structure.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I've heard anecdotally that these wake
effects amongst turbines andbetween turbines can be really
quite significant.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butI've heard things like 10 to 20%
.
Am I in the right ballparkthere?
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Very close.
We say that the inter-arraywake effects can be about a 10%
reduction or up to 10% reductionof energy production and then
an up to 30% reduction inarray-to-array effects.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Definitely significant and that goes to the
point about the education thatI got is that this is not a
small thing, it's a big thing.
It's a very big thing in termsof wind farm design.
That's right.
Terms of wind farm designthat's right.
Given that information, let'sask the basic question why do
(07:37):
wakes?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
matter.
What is at stake here?
And, jessica, maybe you couldhelp us with that a little bit.
Yeah, sure, really, it allcomes down to dollars and cents.
It impacts directly thelevelized cost of energy and
this impacts that by impactingour grid planning, project
financing and then, of course,eventually the cost to the rate
payer and so wakes.
(07:58):
They can both reduce the amountof energy but also increase the
mechanical loading in the windturbine.
So when we're planning for ourproject, we want to maximize for
wind production and minimizefor mechanical loading, and that
is an iterative process.
Process and both of thosethings throughout that iterative
(08:19):
process directly affects ourdevelopment expenses, our
capital expenses and ouroperations expenses.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Okay, so walk us through this conversion of wind
through a turbine intomechanical energy and then an
output of power that ultimatelygets sold into the grid.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So in a very simplistic form, first we want
to find what the energy is inthe free stream, so pretending
that there are no wind turbinesin there.
We want to take publiclyavailable long-term data,
whether it's measured or it'sreanalysis data, and that gives
us that free stream wind speed.
(08:58):
We apply that to the windturbine's power curve and then
from there we have an energyyield value.
But then we need to apply thelosses, and there are losses
like electrical losses,availability so we know that O&M
is going to create a certainkind of availability.
(09:18):
And then wakes, and there arebasically three kinds of wakes.
One is that turbine to turbineinteraction.
The next, which has had a lotof research, is blockage.
And then the third isarray-to-array wakes, and for
(09:40):
offshore wind it is much more ofan impact because of that
atmospheric stability.
On land we have more of anunstable situation where the
atmosphere is able to mix, buton the ocean we do not.
It stays quite stable and sothose long-distance wakes travel
(10:00):
a lot farther.
So from wind energy 1.0,onshore wind, and we need to
improve our measuring andmodeling techniques.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
When you said blockage, that was something
it's not a term that I'mfamiliar with in this context.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
As the wind approaches a very large array,
it kind of slows down.
So it's kind of like when youput your foot in the water and a
wave is coming towards yourfoot, it kind of slows down
before it hits your foot.
And that's what's happening inthe atmosphere is the wind slows
down before it meets the array,and that loss can be up to 4%
(10:51):
of energy production.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
How do you deal with the uncertainty and the losses
that are associated with thewind resource in the context of
an offshore wind project?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
We want to maximize the energy, minimize the loading
.
Both can be affected by wakes.
So we want to maximize theenergy by maybe having larger
rotors, having more windturbines within the array,
putting the wind turbines in themost energetic locations.
But then we want to minimizethe loading.
(11:23):
So that means we need to spreadout the wind turbines and maybe
reduce the rotor size.
But then when you'reintroducing wakes, those larger
rotors also bring down theenergy.
So it's this very delicatebalance of rotor size, spacing,
location and then even yourcontrols algorithms, so
(11:46):
different kinds of pitchschedules and yaw schedules to
treat the wakes or make thewakes act differently within
their ray.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Jessica explain pitch and yaw for those of us who
don't always work in threedimensions.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah.
So a pitch is when the windturbine blade is spinning back
and forth to catch the wind in avery particular way.
So the blade is like anairplane wing and it is affected
by the wind.
It has drag and lift.
Well, that airfoil as itchanges, as it changes how it
(12:30):
faces the wind, it changes howfast the blade is spinning
around.
So we want to change the pitchin order to have the wind
turbine spinning at differentspeeds.
Yaw is when the whole nacelleis going from north to maybe
west.
And that is changing usuallywith the direction of the wind
(12:52):
speed, the freestream wind speed, and for the case of wakes you
might want to be a little bitoff kilter so that the wakes
meander kind of differently anddon't hit the wind turbines
directly downwind that ordownwind that makes a lot of
sense to me.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
So when you're thinking about the potential for
wake effects, so when you'rethinking about the potential for
wake effects, you're thinkingabout the spacing between
individual turbines in a windfarm, where you put them, you're
thinking about if you'remaximizing power output, you're
(13:27):
thinking about how an individualturbine is oriented facing into
the wind or perhaps slightlyoff the wind if there's
something behind it, and you'realso determining how to orient
the blades in respect to thewind.
I mean, there are so manydifferent levels of control here
that it must be a lot ofcomplexity for an operator to
(13:50):
deal with.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
And I actually have one more control that we have
and that is the location ofthese arrays.
So, like in the New York byte,the wind speed is directly north
and south and all of the arraysare aligned north and south.
Now there isn't a whole lot wecan do about that, but we do
know that there's going to bethese long distance wake effects
(14:12):
because of the way that they'rearranged, so there could be
that planning.
That happens a little bitearlier in the development state
.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So you're saying that that was one of the earliest
leases that we issued, and Ithink what I'm hearing you say
is that, in the absence of morethorough knowledge about wake
effects, we probably have anarray and a configuration which
might be less than optimal.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, that orientation of the farms that was done from
a I'm sorry from a regulatoryperspective, right, because it
wanted to be predictable forship traffic, or from a
regulatory perspective right,because it wanted to be
predictable for ship traffic orit was more than regulatory.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
but yes, it was a lot of different factors involved
and what I'm hearing is that thefactor about wake effects,
which definitely was consideredin later leases, maybe didn't
play as thorough a role as itshould have.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, and in fact just after the New York bite
auction, that's when a lot ofthe research about long distance
wakes really started to comeout of Europe, and so there
wasn't a whole lot ofinformation about the types of
modeling that could actuallycapture what those wake losses
could be.
But now we do know a lot betterthose wake losses could be.
But now we do know a lot better.
And we also have all of theseother site constraints beyond
(15:38):
the wind resource that we needto consider, so it's a much
bigger picture.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And Kals, we want to bring you into this conversation
too.
We've been discussing howturbines can impact the flow of
wind, and you know all about howthe flow of wind affects the
movement of the oceans, thesurface currents.
Can you explain to ourlisteners some of the key
factors in those interactions?
Speaker 4 (16:03):
With an offshore wind farm, the awakes that are
created in the lee of each windturbine.
They kind of accumulate overthe size of the wind farm and
the end result is that, like thewake behind an array of wind
turbines, can be tens to or toclose to 100 kilometers or more.
(16:26):
The question we've been askingat INEGRAL is whether this
region of reduction behindregional wind speed reduction
behind a wind farm, can thisreduction affect wind-driven
ocean circulation?
Because fundamentally, surfacecirculation or surface movement
of water masses in the ocean iswind-driven and if there's a
(16:50):
reduction in wind speed fromwhatever, process would this
affect surface circulation?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Does this potential you know the wake effects of
turbines have a real potentialto be significantly important to
the ocean, or is it just lostin the noise that the ocean
signals?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Essentially, if the physical scale of the wake
behind a wind farm is on theorder of several tens of
kilometers at typical latitudeswhere wind farms are currently
being installed, then thecirculation at those scales is
(17:35):
affected by the Earth's rotationand the change in circulation
does start to feelrotation-related effects.
So one example is typicallywhen winds blow in a near
constant speed or direction overthe ocean's surface, it leads
(17:59):
to a transport of surface watersand, counterintuitively, the
direction at which those surfacewaters are transported is not
downstream of the wind but at anangle to the wind.
And if the surface waters aremoving offshore, it's replaced
by cool, deep, nutrient-richwaters from deeper water, which
(18:23):
then leads to a pretty thrivingecosystem in some regions of the
world.
So it's a question worth askingis whether the changes in ocean
circulation at the surface, forwhatever reason, can affect
that ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm also thinking of, like the coast of California.
Isn't that one of theseecosystems where we do see that
that's the way it often works?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Exactly.
There's really two differenteffects.
One is, yeah, as you mentioned,when, like on the coast of
California, where the windspredominantly blow from the
Northwest to the Southeast, thiswake if offshore wind farms
were to be located off the coastof California, the wake will be
(19:13):
to the south and the movementof surface waters to the right
or offshore in California itdoes lead to what's called an
upwelling ecosystem, where youhave really rich and by rich I
mean rich in nutrients surfacewaters which would support a
(19:35):
pretty healthy ecosystem.
The other effect is when youhave, as you go, say, from east
to the west or west to the east,horizontally along the surface
of the ocean.
If you were to encounter achange in wind speeds, that
(19:56):
gradient can also drive amovement of surface waters and
either upwelling of deeperwaters or downwelling of deeper
waters, which can have both apositive and a negative effect
offshore winds been around for awhile in the North Sea, and so
is that a similar situation overthere, or how can we judge
(20:20):
where in the world this shouldbe?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
you know, studied enough of potential exploration.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah.
And so as long as you have.
Uh, uh, uh wakes behind thewind farm, uh behind an offshore
wind farm, you can expect thereto be wake-driven effects to
ocean circulation.
The question is, just how strongis that signal of the wind farm
(20:50):
driven ocean circulation effectabove the noise of general
ocean circulation or changes inocean circulation due to climate
change or warming of ocean orthe general warming of ocean
temperatures?
So in some cases where you havea really clean signal so the
(21:14):
modeling studies that have beendone off of California do have a
characteristic of a reallyclean signal because the winds
tend to predominantly blow inone direction and you can run
the models over a long enoughtime that you can start to see
signals that emerge above thenoise.
It's a lot easier to see theeffect.
In other cases, like the NorthSea, the signal might get mixed
(21:38):
by several other confoundingfactors and you might not even
see that signal above the noise.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Okay, so how do we bring this all together?
Tell us about the modeling, ifyou would, between the
oceanographic models and theirinterface with the
meteorological models, so thatwe feel like we're in a pretty
good position to know what'sactually going on out there.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
So there are two ways that we need to understand this
, or two methods to understandthis, and that is through
measurements and throughmodeling, and the measurements
feed into the modeling andactually likewise the modeling
feeds into the measurementschemes.
So first, with measurements foroffshore wind, we are deploying
(22:26):
a floating lidar or a buoy thathas lidar on it, and then for
Klaus, it would have a bunch ofand he'll be able to speak to
this better than I wouldoceanographic measurement
equipment below the sea surface,and so it's really great when a
state deploys this.
That way, a developer can takethat data and then do their own
(22:50):
modeling, both using linear flowmodel, but then also
computational fluid dynamics andother types of mesoscale
modeling and Kaus.
I know you know some more aboutsome modeling, so I'll let you
take it from there.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
So the same model, same atmospheric model, which
are used to predict wake lossesor wake effects behind wind
turbines, also provide what areknown as the forcing fields, or
one of the inputs that go intoocean circulation models, which
is wind speeds or wind stressesat the ocean surface.
So essentially, the way thesestudies are conducted is you run
(23:31):
an ocean circulation withatmospheric fields in the
absence of wind turbines over along period of time, and then
you go back and introduceturbines into your atmospheric
model, compute the wind fieldsand then you rerun your same
ocean model over the same periodof time with this modified wind
field and you can then start tolook at effects of any.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And that is actually how we observe that there are
wake effects in the energyproduction.
So we can measure theproduction before any other wind
turbines or arrays are nearbyand then when they are installed
.
So we're introducing those windturbines.
We then know what those lossesend up being and therefore we're
(24:19):
able to calibrate our models.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Jessica Kaus, are we talking spreadsheet modeling
that I can do or are we talkingabout much more detail?
When you talk about thesemesoscale models?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
It's a lot of Bernoulli's equations.
A major model that is used formeasuring wake effects in a much
more computational, heavy wayis computational fluid dynamics,
so some sort of flow model.
But then you want to take intoconsideration all of the
(24:56):
atmospheric parameters thataffect the wind speed and how
the wind interacts withdifferent surfaces, and that's
when we're looking at the windresearch, weather research and
forecasting tools.
So WARF is what we call it, andat DMV we couple those two
types of models and that givesus a very complicated scheme of
data that I am not an expert in,but it has been validated
(25:20):
against the wind projects inEurope.
So I find it exciting.
Though it's not exactly myexpertise, I do like listening
to those in my team.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I do like listening to those in my team.
Yeah, the mathematics that gointo either the mesoscale
atmospheric models or the oceanmodels are actually identical
but they differ in that they canmake different simplifying
(25:53):
assumptions to be able to solvethese equations in a
computationally efficient andtimely manner.
So, for example, in an oceanmodel you take in temperature,
you take in salinitydistributions in the ocean and
you see how differences intemperature and salinity affect
density of the ocean.
And when you have changes indensity then it can lead to
(26:13):
water masses flowing fromregions of higher pressure to
lower pressure, with pressuredifferences being driven by
changes in density, for example.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
In the future, as we expect to see turbine sizes
increasing, particularlyoffshore, would you expect wake
effects and ocean interactionsto become more pronounced or
less pronounced?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
It's definitely a push and pull.
So you are able to extract moreenergy out of the wind when you
have a larger swept area, butthat larger swept area is also
taking the momentum out of thatwind speed and taking the energy
out of the wind for the nextwinter.
Right the wind turbinedownstream, but also having
(26:58):
newer designs in blade lengthsand airfoils and all the
different ways that we try toimprove our wind turbines, it
actually also introduces a levelof uncertainty and investors
don't like uncertainty.
So it's a push and pull of.
We want to maximize how much weget out of the energy, but we
(27:18):
also want to minimize risk.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
We know you're each involved in R&D efforts and
additional science programs tohelp the offshore wind industry
get better, more efficient, moreenvironmentally responsible and
more affordable.
Where do you see these key nextsteps of improvement coming
from?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Through operations.
So the more we have windturbines operating, such as in
the North Sea, we're learning somuch like the long-distance
wakes on how the wind turbinescan survive in ocean conditions
and how different designs areaffected in ocean conditions,
(28:00):
and so the more we expose ourtechnology in these different
environments, the more we'regoing to learn about how they
should be designed, built,installed, operated be designed,
built, installed, operated, andthere's innovation and
improvement in that regard.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, and then in terms of modeling environmental
effects, there's two maindirections where a lot of
research is currently being doneor needs to be done.
The first is better.
The first is better modeling,or understanding what the wake
behind the structures themselvesare.
As a colleague once told me,flow around a cylindrical
(28:45):
structure is one of the mostwell-studied problems in fluid
mechanics, but as soon as youadd stratification, no one seems
to know anything.
So that's currently an activearea of research.
Vineyard Wind actually isfunding a study called Ocean
Wakes, which is looking at thisparticular problem specifically.
(29:07):
The second area of research islooking at this feedback between
the ocean onto the atmosphere.
So essentially running ordeveloping atmospheric models
that take into account changesin surface roughness at the
bottom and changes intemperature at the bottom, which
(29:29):
can affect the weight losscalculations that Jessica is
interested in.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Actually, that's a really good point because when I
was talking about the freestream wind, that free stream
wind is affected by the surfaceroughness.
And even though Ian said thatthe ocean is flat, it does have
a roughness to it.
It's flatter than land, but itstill has a roughness to it.
It's flatter than land, but itstill has a roughness, and we do
need to know that.
And likewise with thetemperature, we can make
(29:57):
assumptions as to what thesurface of the ocean, surface
temperature is, but the morewe're able to measure and model
it, the better we can model theatmospheric conditions and,
ultimately, the wake effects.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
I can't help but look at it from a public policy
standpoint.
It's not just the accumulationof the knowledge in a way that
leads to better technicaldecisions, but it also is the
use of the knowledge to makebetter policy decisions, and
decisions about things like areaID and what works and what will
(30:37):
work best.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And I can advocate for both DNV's efforts in
measurement and modeling andHouse's integral modeling and
measuring.
That all of that affectsuncertainties.
The better we get at measuring,the better we get at modeling,
the better we can reduce theuncertainty and the cheaper it
(31:05):
would be to borrow that moneyand then ultimately bring down
the cost of energy.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
The program is working the way it was supposed
to work.
We do not know we're notpretending to know everything.
There are so many areas andthis is one of them where we're
learning things and feeding thatback into the decision-making
process.
So we have our ups and downs.
We have our political changes,if you will.
(31:32):
That's going to have an effecton things.
Have our political changes, ifyou will.
That's going to have an effecton things.
But overall, we're feedinginformation back into the
process to make better decisionson a technical basis and make
better decisions on a policybasis.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Thank you, guys, but we normally end with any last
drops in the ocean for ourlisteners and that's a chance to
just mention any other thingsaround the offshore energy topic
that might be going on in yourworld as our guests.
Jessica, would you like to gofirst?
Any last drops for this week?
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Sure.
So, going off of what Jim saidabout policy matters in the
federal government, we're seeinga lot of change in policy and
funding toward the things thatwe care about.
So I'm going to say let's watchthe states.
Watch what the states are doingfunding research and
development, having plans forofftake and then even having
(32:27):
potential offshore winddevelopment in the state waters.
So I say, watch the states winddevelopment in the state waters
.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
So I say, watch the states.
The first, following onJessica's comment about the
states, is California, for onejust passed Assembly Bill 472.
(32:58):
That includes the developmentof ports to service offshore
wind in their definition ofinfrastructure and to
essentially incorporate offshorewind development into
infrastructure planning.
The second drop is kind of ashout out to this National
Academies panel which released areport on potential effects of
(33:18):
offshore wind on the ecology ofthe Nantucket Shoals.
I was lucky enough to be a partof that academy panel and that
report is out and in the publicdomain for those who want to
look it up.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Hey, great, we'll include a link in the show notes
.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, I've already repeated what would constitute
my last drops the points aboutlook to the states, the points
about the definition ofinfrastructure.
These are great points and I'mgoing to turn it right back to
you, ian, as far as a last dropis concerned.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Ian, as far as a last drop is concerned, I've got two
last drops.
One is a recent report you mayhave seen.
Texas's main grid operator,ercot, forecasts that the
state's growing demand for powercould surpass its existing
available energy supplybeginning in not 10 years, not
five years, but next year duringthe summer.
(34:13):
So that's awfully interestingto look at.
Here comes fast renewables tothe rescue, I have a feeling.
And second, I just wanted tosay if at any point during this
podcast I mentioned the Gulf ofMexico, of course I meant the
Gulf of America.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
You're on the record there.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Ian, I think we need to ask our listeners to give us
some feedback.
Tell us if we're in the rightplace here, tell us what you're
thinking about the podcast andwhat we might want to be doing
better, and, if you have topics,send them to us.
And, like today, theopportunity to have such great
(34:57):
special guests like we just hadin Jessica and Klaas it would be
terrific.
I hope you've enjoyedparticipating and I really do
appreciate you joining us.
(35:18):
Yeah, thank you guys.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, thanks for the invite.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And until we meet again on the next Offshore
Energy Podcast.
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