The Culture-Makers: From Sinners to Storytelling Success

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Ready to explore what happens when creativity meets commerce in the entertainment industry? Join hosts Shaka Omari and Charles Malone as they kick off their new podcast journey with authentic conversations about navigating the ups and downs of Hollywood.

Drawing from their decade of experience as industry professionals, the duo examines what keeps creatives going when success seems distant. They share a powerful perspective on maintaining passion for art while facing industry pressures: "Sometimes we put too much pressure on succeeding that we lose some of the love for the journey and the art." This tension between artistic fulfillment and commercial expectations becomes a recurring theme throughout their conversation.

The hosts deliver a captivating analysis of Ryan Coogler's "Sinners," unpacking its rich cultural significance, religious themes, and artistic choices. Their discussion reveals the film's deeper layers, from its exploration of cultural appropriation to its representation of the seven deadly sins. As they break down how the blues music in the film connects generations, they demonstrate how authentic storytelling transcends cultural boundaries by tapping into universal human experiences.

Alongside their film analysis, Shaka and Charles tackle the elephant in the entertainment room: artificial intelligence. Rather than falling into doom-and-gloom predictions, they offer a nuanced take on AI as a creative tool that might actually democratize storytelling for those without traditional industry access. Their perspective cuts through the fear with practical insight: "High productivity plus taste equals survival."

Whether you're a creative professional, an entertainment enthusiast, or simply curious about the forces shaping today's media landscape, subscribe now to join this thought-provoking journey through the intersection of art, business, and cultural identity.

Episode Transcript

Shaka Omari (00:03):
Welcome to the Open Queue, a podcast where we talk
about entertainment, pop cultureand the daily life of
navigating the entertainmentindustry.
As a creative, I'm your host,Shaka Omari, and I'm joined by
my business partner, CharlesMalone.
We'll sometimes have othercreative guests on to tell us
about their journey in theindustry, dealing with their ups

(00:23):
and downs, struggles andsuccesses.
We'll also touch on currentchanges to the business of
television and film, as well asqueue up what we're watching,
listening to or a piece of artwe've been inspired by.
The music you're listening tois the Smokestack Twins from the
movie Sinners, composed byLudwig Göransson.
And now let's get queued up,all right?

(00:53):
Well, this is, uh, our fir stpodcast and uh welcome I'm Shaka
Omari and I'm here with, Ithink, we already did this,
charles charles, charles malone,hey you know it's the first one
, just want to make sure peopleknow what's going on.
Yeah, um.
So, yeah, you know this is ourpodcast.
Uh, both of us are in theindustry.
We have started our ownproduction company.

(01:15):
Just to give you a littlebackground on us and, um, yeah,
we've been going through thisfor a couple of years now.
Right, like working in thisindustry I think, what is it
like?
10 years maybe?

Charles Malone (01:26):
Close to say it's almost the 10 year mark
when you've made it, whatevermaking it is nowadays?

Shaka Omari (01:35):
Yeah, that is a question what is success in this
industry?
So we decided we'd get togetherand just talk about our journey
and pick people's brains,because you know, I think
everyone knows the industry iskind of contracting a bit and
there's lots of stuff with AI.
But I think we should firststart off with what are you
watching?

Charles Malone (01:49):
Yeah, before I get into watching it, I just
want to say this is actually aTuring Test podcast.

Shaka Omari (01:59):
Are we AI or are we real?
That's a good, okay.
So see, that's going to lead meto a show that you had me watch
recently, pantheon, which Ithought was really interesting,
and I feel like we could do awhole podcast on that.
We should probably do that nexttime, because it has to deal
with what is reality, what is AI?
And I think we've seen withthis Google what is it Vero that
just came out.
Some of that stuff looksincredibly real, like I don't

(02:25):
know if we're cooked or not.

Charles Malone (02:26):
Uh, I don't know .
I still think there's a placefor human creation.
Like ai is not going tocompletely disrupt everything.
Um, you know, I knew a youngkid that started a vinyl
production company with hisbrother and I think going into
it they were just doing it offtheir passion for like vinyl and

(02:48):
records.
I mean, they actually flew toitaly and, like, I guess, did
this internship under this likevinyl maker and learned how to
make all these funky vinyls.
I don't think they got into itthinking like man, we're gonna
become millionaires, and theywere just doing it off of the
passion for it.
They knew that it was a, it waslike an old piece of technology

(03:09):
or a way to like listen tomusic and it was just a love of
doing it.
And they eventually did do welland sold their, their company.
But originally they're neverexpecting to like make money off
of this.
They did it for the love of itand and I think sometimes as
creatives we put too muchpressure on succeeding or like
making money or becomingfinancially successful that we

(03:32):
kind of like lose some of thelove for the journey and the art
.

Shaka Omari (03:36):
I think I'd have to agree with that, because
recently I've been kind of onthis journey of watching some of
the stuff that's come out thisyear and you know, going from
Sinners to Thunderbolts to Andor, which you should watch.
I know you watched the firstseason of Andor.
You've got to watch the secondseason.
There's a lot of things inthose projects, those works of

(03:58):
art, where it's more than justentertainment.
I feel like it's something thatthe creatives have to say and I
think it's resonating with theaudiences because it's deeper
than just hey, this is just fun,this is special effects and
this is how we can make back ourmoney and our budget.
And I'm wondering if that'slike what's been going on with
the industry lately is to yourpoint.
I mean, do you feel like theindustry has leaned a little bit

(04:19):
more towards making thebusiness side versus the
creative artist side?

Charles Malone (04:25):
um, like the, the entertainment business, I
would say the.
The essence of it is in the,the latter of the name.
It's.
I think it's always been abusiness, um, and it's been
built off of the backs ofcreatives, but it it definitely

(04:46):
seems like it was always abusiness first, because, like
whoever's funding and financingthese projects, they do want to
return on that investment.
Um, I think it's definitely gotmore risk adverse.
So there is a lack ofcreativity to try to focus on
making as much money as possible, which is why we're seeing so

(05:07):
many I'm going to sigh hereremakes and reboots and sequels
and prequels, and every time wesee something and I know we're
going to talk about this butoriginal, like centers like, oh
man, this is the most profitableoriginal thing to come out
since what?
2019?
Or the pandemic, and you'relike, yeah, people are tired of

(05:27):
seeing the same stuff.
Like if I have to play anotherversion of Final Fantasy VII or
if they make a goddamn on.

Shaka Omari (05:34):
Final Fantasy VII animation or movie.

Charles Malone (05:37):
I'm just like when are you just going to let
Cloud die?

Shaka Omari (05:39):
Hold up, hold up.
Okay, as a fan of Final FantasyVII, all right, it's dope.
To be fair, though, I haven'tactually gone all the way
through the second one, becauseI don't want to call it fatigue,
but there's just so much to doand I don't have enough time to
dedicate towards it.
But some things I think areworth like continuing on.

Charles Malone (05:57):
I think that it's great to expand these
worlds.
Expand these worlds um, and youknow, you love the characters
but more than anything, most ofthe time, you fall in love with,
like the story and the worlditself, and give us a different
piece of this world.
You know, I I'm so tired of theskywalker storyline.
Fair, I'll give you that and thebest movie to come out of star

(06:19):
wars in a long time was rogueone and had nothing to really do
besides vader showing up forone badass scene.
That had nothing to do with thefilm really which is why you
need to watch andor.

Shaka Omari (06:28):
I'm just gonna drop that again, I know?
Um well, it's funny that youspeak about that because, like
like you said, we're gonna talkabout sinners there.
I saw an article recently inwhich they were saying that
there may be a sinner sequelyeah, but I mean spoiler alert
if you didn't see the movie.

Charles Malone (06:42):
any credit scene , like, I feel like they're kind
of Right Hinting at that, yeah,setting it up, which I'm like
would or would I think they'dhave to bring back the Native
Americans More.
So they don't have to, but Ireally hope that they do Right,
Because they had that like quickscene where they're chasing an
old Irish dude what's his name?

Shaka Omari (07:01):
Remick.

Charles Malone (07:02):
Remick, I want to go.
Remy Martin, they're chasingRemick and then they like we
don't see your hair for themagain, so I hope they find a way
to bring that back.

Shaka Omari (07:13):
That'd be interesting.
So before we get in the centersI know I asked the original
question Is there anything thatyou've read recently or been
watching recently that hasinspired you or reignited your
fire for this industry, or isthis?
Are you at a point now whereyou feel like I'm not even sure
if I still want to do this?

Charles Malone (07:30):
No, I'm a glutton for punishment and I
genuinely love what we get to doas professional creatives.
When it's done right or Iwouldn't even say right, just
like when you get a project oryou're working on something that

(08:05):
like the high highs and the lowlows of this industry, it's a.
It's a wild roller coaster, butthere's almost nothing that can
beat having a like successfulproject come out and do well and
you're like yeah you justscored a goal at the world cup.
Man, you're just like yeah.
Sometimes just run around myhouse, like you know and there's
different phases of that, likewhen you're taking something out

(08:26):
and then someone like picks upyour project and you're like,
yeah, and then the low of likewell, the development process is
, but like it was a nice littlemini win, uh, and I think
celebrating those smallmilestones and wins along the
line kind of like helps with theuncertainty and the ups and
downs of this industry.
But when you hit nothing, likeit, nothing like and at this

(08:47):
point I don't even know what Iwould do it like if I quit now.
I genuinely don't know what Iwould, what I would do and I'm
saying creative of all mediumsmusic, video games just you know
, when you hit as a creative, itfeels good I think that's why
we do what we do, man, like it's.

Shaka Omari (09:05):
It's just one of those things that, uh, you just
can't quit it, just it justpulls you in.
It's kind of like a calling.
You know that?
Uh, series you had me watch onNetflix.
Uh, the films that made us.
I think, yeah, I mean, if you'relooking for inspiration when
battling to whatever yourdecision of success is in this
industry, I think, looking atsome of those and seeing just

(09:26):
how hard it is to make thesemovies, it is a risk.
You don't know what's going tohit and what doesn't.
But when it hits, man, man,you're just like let's do it
again.

Charles Malone (09:36):
You know.
I mean you asked me what am Iwatching lately?
That's inspirational.
But before I say what I'vewatched, the most recent, I will
say the films that made us both.
The Christmas and regularseries is a great one to watch,
not only just the ups and downsof this, I think.
So often there's thisexpectation that you have to
like know everything and thenyou can't know something or

(09:58):
someone's going to take you lessserious, and I wish more people
were okay saying that like Idon't know or I can figure it
out, or being resourceful,Because my favorite thing about
most of those episodes ifsomewhere in there it was
someone's like first timestepping into a role, or like I
never produced something before,or like I had no clue how I was

(10:18):
going to get this money, andyou're going off of raw passion
and you figure it out and thenyou now know for the next
project and you slowly learnfrom each project.
So in that aspect it was reallyinspirational for me.
It took off the pressure oflike you have to know everything
you don't.
And if you're stepping into aleadership role from like a
junior role, it's like yousurround yourself by people who

(10:41):
know how to do the things thatyou don't and you focus on the
vision.
But yeah, I really like that.
The things that I watchedrecently.
That gives me hope for likecreativity of, like original
ideas.
Pantheon, um, which a lot ofpeople already said is like
really similar to the movietranscendence, with johnny depp
just done better, um, commonside effects yes, man that, yeah

(11:03):
, you got me on that one commonside effects blew me.
It was just so good art style,so fun and kooky, but like the
story underneath had such likeweight to it in depth, um and
thunderbolts, believe it or notlike thunderbolts completely
caught me off guard.
Um on like how a superherocomic book film can again have

(11:27):
such emotional depth and amessage to say about, like
mental health and depressionthat I was going in to watch a
popcorn movie and then everyonearound me started to cry I was
like whoa okay yes, yeah it wassneaky.

Shaka Omari (11:40):
Yeah, yeah, that was, that was all of us.
Um, yeah, I really thought Iwas just gonna be like, yeah,
okay, this is a Marvel movie.
You know it's going to be,especially in their last couple
of movies since Endgame.
I thought it was like oh yeah,it's just going to be fun, it's
going to be a bunch of peoplebeating each other up and we're
just going to continue on thisbigger universe and see where
these characters go.
But I remember being in themovie and my friend turned to me

(12:02):
and was like, oh my gosh, Ithink I'm going to cry.
And I was like stop saying thatbecause I'm about to cry.
And I think that was reallycool because it was a bunch of
us, you know, speaking on mentalhealth, a bunch of us guys who
sometimes I think men don't takethe mental health seriously or
as serious as we should, and tojust have that emotional
reaction in an action movieBrilliant, I mean like that to
me was again art, you know,Brilliant, I mean like that to

(12:26):
me was again art.
you know, that's what, or atleast why, I want to do this

(12:49):
no-transcript, your interest oranything that you've seen coming
down the pipeline and any ofthe trades that you're kind of
like.
Oh okay, that's interesting.
I know you'd mentioned AIearlier.

Charles Malone (13:02):
Who isn't talking about?
What sector of business isn'ttalking about?
Ai?
If it's like you're apsychologist taking ai notes
with your like clients for theirtherapy sessions, or a youtube
creative just figuring out howto like streamline your kind of
everyone everywhere, ai, ai isthe easy answer.
Ai, yeah, that there's even thenatasha leone.

(13:25):
Is that her name?

Shaka Omari (13:26):
uh, the one that's in poker face right, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Charles Malone (13:29):
It seems like she's just that character in
real life.
Um, that's just her.
She's not acting.

Shaka Omari (13:35):
I guess she's acting, being her in these
situations just as an actor, youbring yourself, yeah, to the
role as they say, stop acting,start living.

Charles Malone (13:44):
Um yeah, I won't start ragging on actors, just
funny, because I yeah, I'vealways actually had a crush on
her since, uh, but I'm just acheerleader.
But it's just like now seeingher play like, oh, you're just
this kooky person in real lifeyeah, I know how you are with
actors, that's why um, no, no,the thing she's doing with the.

(14:05):
I forget the, the dude with thedreads it looks like he's one
of from the matrix, the whichwas like oh dude, I'll have to
pull it up on the computer yeahthey're making an ai feature
together, right I?

Shaka Omari (14:18):
did see something about that in my article that
they're planning on using ai uhto make a, and I know that
that's something that you havementioned.
Is that as an artist andcreative and I guess maybe we
should have given a little bitof background?
You know, you're a producer,slash director.
You've been saying it's a tooland that people shouldn't be

(14:38):
afraid of it.

Charles Malone (14:39):
It's because there's no stopping it.
All you could hope is thatthere's some guardrails or
relegations that kind of likecould help protect creatives
from getting their art worked.
Or someone just throwing in aprompt and like copying what
they already do, but it's notgoing anywhere and you're just
going to get left behind bytrying to be like oh, this new
piece of technology, we're alldoom and gloom like too bad you

(15:02):
can't stop.
This train's already taking off.
Where do you learn to use thetools?
And, honestly, it could bereally helpful.
I think sometimes we getgatekeepy and precious as
creatives of like protectinghumanity.
I'm guilty of someone who'slike it's hard for me to do a
soulless project, like I'mdefinitely not a person for hire

(15:24):
.
Hard for me to do a soullessproject, like I'm definitely not
a person for hire.
Like I I try to find projectsthat have a whole, like a soul
or something to say or like apulse.
So I I've been guilty of like Ican't do this.
It's like this is meaningless,like what is this even?
For?
What does it say?
Uh, but are we too precious?
Because, like what's thedifference between you, shaka,
writing a short story, atreatment, and then going to a

(15:46):
screenwriter to help you, likewrite a first draft?
Because your strength is notwriting and is it?
Is it just solely becauseyou're taking that job away from
the writer that you would hire?
But what if you don't know anywriters?
What if you're like a kid innebraska?
Not to just pick nebraska outof nowhere, but I imagine
there's not.

Shaka Omari (16:02):
yeah, for might have been Nebraska, yeah for
real.

Charles Malone (16:04):
What did Nebraska do to me?
I'm sorry y'all, Sometimes Ijust be shooting straight.

Shaka Omari (16:08):
Like people catching strays out here.

Charles Malone (16:10):
I gotta really like pull it in.
But no, seriously, you're inthe middle of like a place where
there's not a lot of writers,right?
You don't have a lot of bigfilm community full of no like.
You can go to reddit or you cango to all these different forms
and find someone to help you.
Is there any difference of likeusing an eye to help you get
that first draft out or organizeyour thoughts than going to

(16:31):
another writer like you're stillnot writing it yourself?

Shaka Omari (16:34):
I mean, that's a.
It's an interesting point thatyou bring up with that.
I never thought about it thatway.
But yeah, for somebody who maynot have access to the resources
, um, you know, this is a agreat way to kind of I don't
want to say level the playingfield, but open up the gates to
helping them elevate themselvesor be a part of the whole

(16:54):
machine.
So I could see that from thataspect and I think there's
something to be said about likehaving part of the humanity,
like the taste in there, becauseI saw this really interesting I
wish I had gotten the name ofit, this interesting meme, I
guess you could say where theywere joking about someone going

(17:16):
in to see a film and they couldeither see an AI generated film
or a live action film, and theywere saying the live action film
would cost a lot more becauseyou've got to pay the actors,
but the AI film would be cheaper.
But then they gave you theoption of do you want it with
ads or without ads?
So it started tacking on,because they had to make money
out of it, the business side,and I guess all of that I'm
saying all that to say that I dostill feel that there is

(17:37):
something about human beingsdoing something.
So taking a AI to give you yourtreatment but then still having
your human taste added to it,that AI is not going to replace,
no matter how much you train iton human data, because it's
just going to regurgitate Likesomebody needs to look at it and
say let's try this or dosomething different.
At least, that's my opinion.

Charles Malone (17:58):
You know, I think AI is eventually going to
pick up on trends and be able tokind of like predict the next
thing at some point in time, butright now I think it's the way
to survival.
I think one of the things Ithink is oversimplified but also
was a nice little like.
Here it is in a simple, littlefew words.
It's like high productivityplus taste equals survival.
Like using these tools tocontinue helping you put stuff

(18:22):
out and get and like make things, then take them from like your
head to this tangible thing onpaper they can share with other
people, and just trying to useyour own arts, the subjective
man.
Like things that are funny tome might not be funny to other
people.
I have a really dark sense ofhumor, so I personally know that
that some of these that make melaugh might make other people

(18:43):
cringe or just say, like that'sin bad taste, charles.
So who are we to say?
You know, I know we didn't evenget on Sinners yet, but yeah,
ai is definitely a big one.
I'm also a big fan of like VR,whether it's for gaming or just

(19:03):
experience.
I think it's a thing that's notgoing anywhere and that's
slowly just still cooking in thebackground.
So just tech, tech andstorytelling.

Shaka Omari (19:11):
Video games yeah, that's, that's a another form of
storytelling.
Yeah, I think at the end of theday, it all boils down to what
tool do you want to use to getyour story out there, and it's
still going to have to havesomewhat of a human element yeah
, and not the harp on this liketaste thing, but what is it
called?

Charles Malone (19:27):
expedition 33 was a game that kind of like hit
the market and everyone's likeoh, this developer left ubisoft
and, like you know, decided tomake this game on his own over
the last five years and he foundhis head writer off of reddit
and he found this composer thatnever composed video games
before and they put this ragtagteam together to make this game

(19:47):
that just launched and sold likea million copies and everyone's
like this game's amazing andI'm 45 minutes into it and it's
boring for me.
I did not see that coming andlike I'm trying so hard, my like
, my best bud, like literally,was like oh man, we're gonna

(20:07):
love this game and with it'sjust so freaking slow.
Like the way the characters moveare slow, the story moves at a
slow pace and like baldergate isnot everyone's cup of tea.
I like I love that game.
That game's too slow for people.
So like I'm sitting heresurrounded by people, like it's
like the dark knight all overagain for me.
Like the dark knight came out,I was like this is the best

(20:27):
thing ever and I was like thejoker was the best thing ever.

Shaka Omari (20:30):
The rest of the movie is okay okay, okay, see,
the podcast is about to go offthe rails here.
Because what, hey look, I look,I'm gonna give he father ledger
his props.
Yes, the joker made that movie,but, as I've always said, a
hero is only as good as hisvillain, and so I feel that was
a complete picture, a completemovie, like I, I dug it, I, I,

(20:52):
I'm surrounded again.

Charles Malone (20:53):
I know, I know what I was saying was
controversial.
I knew exactly what I was, oh,okay.

Shaka Omari (20:59):
All right, well, with that, I think we should
talk about Sinners, because nowI'm really curious to know what
your thoughts are on Sinners,because I know a lot of people
loved this movie.

Charles Malone (21:08):
They did and I also love.
Sinners, but I'm also not goingto sit here like you can't
critique anything because like,oh no, it's amazing, you can't
say anything bad about a thing.
It's still like art and youstill can have like and it's not
even nitpicky.
I just had one part that just Ifelt he let his imagination run
and no one checked him on it.

(21:28):
Okay.

Shaka Omari (21:29):
So I'm just going to go at this point in time and
say spoiler warning.
So if you have not seen themovie by now, you may want to
back out.
But we're going to go intodetail on Sinners because, yeah,
this is one of the movies Imentioned at the beginning of
the podcast that I felt reallyinspired me, and now I'm very
curious as to what my producingpartner, Charles, here has to
say.
I loved it.

Charles Malone (21:50):
I was completely like blown away by such a like
a fun original vampire story,because it's been a minute since
we've seen like a good vampiremovie.
So in that sense it's like it'slike oh man, all these cool
black places, black moviesalways have like an amazing
soundtrack and more than thatthe story was.

(22:10):
You know, I have no problemwith the story.
I actually love the story.
I love the emotional journey ofthe brothers, like like it's.
It's a movie that I'm going toown and I'm going to re-watch
and dig into, because I likethere's so many like it's
layeredcheeky little things in there on
top of it being layered.
I was like, oh you, you fudgersare like cheeky, I see what
you're doing here.

(22:31):
Um, but it's it's.
It's one of those movies that Ihad a hard time turning off my
brain, where, like I want toanalyze this film but like I
also want to just like enjoy itand watch it.
So I started off with like okay, like the opening, opening
sequence, right away, likeopening.
I was like there's like africangods and lores and things like

(22:52):
yes I'm, I'm digging it and Iwas like I'm just gonna watch
this and then I like, thenstarted to like okay, I see what
you guys are doing.
So I would like slip back andforth between like just enjoying
the experience, but also thentrying to like break it down.

Shaka Omari (23:06):
Okay.
So I actually have a questionon that, because I find myself
doing the same thing too.
Do you feel that, now thatyou've worked in the industry
because this is my opinion,you've worked in the industry
that you don't watch movies thesame way Like you almost start
to like break it down andanalyze it from a producer
standpoint, versus just like anaudience member?

Charles Malone (23:23):
Well, the simple answer is yes I will say, if
you ask anyone's close to me,I've always to watch movies in
this way of like trying tounderstand them and just maybe
as someone who, like, wanted tomake movies.
But now that I know how thingsare made, it's worse.
Yeah, uh, it's worse.
Like, well, I, I really getpulled out of things when I can
tell, like it's a lot, or thelighting is insanely artificial

(23:48):
and it's a world I'm supposed tobuy into, but it's so hard
because I can just tell thatthis is on a lot.
Yeah.

Shaka Omari (23:53):
You can see the nuances and it pulls me out.

Charles Malone (23:56):
And then you ruin it for your partner, who
may have not seen it before, andyou're complaining about things
they didn't see.
And now it's too late, becausenow they can continuity.

Shaka Omari (24:03):
It's like wait a minute.
His shirt was wet in one sceneand then the next one.
He's not.

Charles Malone (24:06):
I'm actually really forgiving on continuity,
really I get it.
I've worked with some actorsthat like won't do the same,
take twice.

Shaka Omari (24:12):
Okay, see, look there you are with the actor
thing and I know who you'retalking about.

Charles Malone (24:15):
All right, all right, okay and it's great
because they give you variety.
But then you're like, oh, likeI really franken hey look
sometimes we're just in themoment.

Shaka Omari (24:25):
All right, In defense of all actors.
We're in the moment.

Charles Malone (24:27):
I could be talking about Robert Downey Jr.

Shaka Omari (24:30):
Don't try to be slick, don't try to be slick, no
, but it centers.

Charles Malone (24:36):
It was one of those movies that was so well
done that I was trying to liketake as much from it as I could.
It's like you know, when you'reDude, how many times did you
see it?
Well, only once right now.
Okay, I got a kid man.
He's like you know, into themovies.

Shaka Omari (24:48):
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough, yeah, yeah.

Charles Malone (24:50):
A two and a half year old.
It's getting to the movietheaters.
I'm going to have to wait forit to come out.
I agree, I agree, yeah, yeah,and and I guess, if I'm just
going to jump to, the only thingthat took me out of the world,

(25:10):
please is simultaneously, by theway, one of my like favorite
scenes and sequences.
I just thought it wasunnecessary to the story the way
it was drug out and it pulledme out of the world as it did my
fiance.
We like kind of looked eachother like.
This is going on for a longtime.
It's the when he's pulling inpreacher boy starts like playing
his, his first jam, and hestarted bringing in the

(25:32):
ancestors.
And the ancestors were fine, butthen the breakdancer came in.

Shaka Omari (25:37):
Oh.

Charles Malone (25:38):
And then the twerking in the kitchen, and
then they brought the future upand it's like man I know music
is transcending time.
It's a part of our culture.
But I think the future bit justcompletely took me out of the
present moment in the film and Ilove it for what it is, but for
the story it just pulled,pulled.

(25:58):
If they just kept just theancestor bit I would have been
fine.
But then they brought in thefuture and I was like this is a
little too absurd for me.
I could see that.

Shaka Omari (26:05):
I mean, I hear you, I could see that.
Yes, I will admit, when I sawit, you know, I went to go see
it late at night because I'm notI'm not a horror person.
Everybody knows that.
So on this podcast, if wediscuss anything horror, it's
going to be coming from Charles.
I went to go see it anywaysbecause I really felt like I
should see this movie and thatmoment really impacted me
because, you know me, I lovemusic and I love to dance and I

(26:27):
understand the imagery he wasgoing for.
Sometimes you just fall into themusic and you forget about, you
know, like Outkast said, youforget about all the troubles of
the day.
You know, spuddy, odie,dopealicious Angel.
So it did jar me when, like theelectric guitar, you know
George Carlin, is it GeorgeCarlin or is that the comedian
P-Funk?
You know the guitar came intoit.

(26:47):
I was kind of like, oh okay,but I did see what he was going
for.
I did see how he was saying notonly is Preacher Boy which I
think this is what you're sayingPreacher Boy's music is built
on the ancestors' music, buteverything coming from the
future as well is built on blues, the ancestral music, all of
that kind of stuff.
So it was kind of, I think, forme, at least in the living in

(27:09):
the modern era, to be like ohyeah, I am connected to my
ancestors and what I build now,which I think is like art, words
of gladiator, echoes intoeternity, like everything it is
that we do in this life.
So while it did, it did take meout, because it was so like oh
we're mixing everything.

Charles Malone (27:27):
Right, yeah, I agree.

Shaka Omari (27:28):
Uh, I did like the in my mind, I guess, the beauty
or the poetry of what he wastrying to show and how they
brought the house down with thewhole burning the house down
thing.

Charles Malone (27:39):
The roof is on fire.

Shaka Omari (27:41):
The roof is on fire .
I think, you know, for those ofyou that know us, you've seen
us at, you know out and about atthe clubs, you know RIP the den
and have seen us tear up thedance floor and bring the house
down and that, I think,resonated with me a lot in that
aspect.

Charles Malone (28:00):
There's within sinners and just the culture.
Is that?
You know, I'm not even gonnalike we are the culture.
Let me not even we are theculture, not even just like you
and I going into these um dryplaces and just not not
intending to turn these intodance floors or it becoming a
place to go, but just being in acrap situation and being bored

(28:23):
and just having fun enjoyingourselves and I think we've done
that as a people of take, youknow, the scraps of what's
handed to us and turn it intosomething that everyone wants to
consume and enjoy is bothcenters as a movie and the story
, and what we do as a people.

Shaka Omari (28:43):
You know that brings up a really okay.
So that brings up somethingreally interesting for me on
this.
So I've watched the movie aboutthree times, three times in
theater and I've alreadypre-ordered it.
At the beginning of the movie,when the Smokestack twins are
like waiting for Hogwood orwhatever to come in off, in the
background corner there are twovultures circling and as Hogwood

(29:05):
pulls up, a third vultureswoops down into frame and then
goes back and joins it.
It's the same vultures we seewhen Remick shows up at the Ku
Klux Klan house and then thosesame vultures show up the night
of when everything is starting.
And some of the things I've beenreading on the internet is
while vultures represent deathright, because it's that the hog
board is bringing death thetwins, you know there's death

(29:28):
surrounding them.
It also made a reallyinteresting allegory to culture
vulture speaking of.
What you're saying is how wecreate joy out of the scraps
that are given to us.
And then someone comes in andsees that joy and says, well,
hey, we want to make money offof this.
Come join us, come give up yourculture, we want this so all of
us can experience it.
And it's almost like, whilethat seems to make sense.

(29:50):
It's a lie, like, I think, theidea of the vampirism, the
culture, vulturism, you go andassimilate, you lose your soul,
your culture in the process.

Charles Malone (30:02):
Man, you're just starting.
I don't want to like I only sawit, because I can go off on
like eight different tangentsabout this.
I'm just going to try to keepit contained.
The first thing is that thisreminds me of get out when you
make something as a creativethat's so impactful and so
commercially successful thateveryone just starts placing
their theories on what thewriter or director meant.

(30:26):
And I'm not saying that thatwasn't intentional to be culture
vultures or about death.
I just love when people startreading into stuff and come up
with their own theories.
I used to watch some of the oldJordan Peele interviews and he
was like, yeah, I didn't, Ididn't think that, but I'll take
it like sometimes sometimes youknow as again as as a director

(30:46):
myself there's, there's yourvision, you have in it and then,
like people then read into thatand sometimes it's their
interpretation is better thanthe thing that they actually
yeah, you actually intended, um,and that's kind of what I hope
it meant to be a double entendrekind of thing with the vultures
and deaf and culture vultures,um, but I don't know, that's

(31:06):
just my first thing with that uh, the the culture, vulture-ness,
it's just such a sensitive asstopic.
Uh, every I I am this is notgonna be pc y'all, because I'm a
rip paul mooney, um, and justsay what paul says everybody
wanted to be a nigga, but nobodywanted to be a nigga um and you

(31:27):
know, you see, that with a lotof young kids that aren't black
or brown, growing up, they wantto consume the, the music, the,
the, the, the fashion, the, theentertainment, and I think
sometimes we reduce ourselves tojust entertainment when we had
such more impact on, like,innovation and invention.
But then they, they, they growup and shit changes, um, and

(31:51):
then they do want to be avulture, and the vulture, in a
sense, they want to pick thepieces that they want and then
discard the rest, and this hasbeen coming up a lot recently.
Uh, my favorite meme it's theselike little gray blobs and
these blue blobs.
I think I may have sent youthis meme, but historically,
even to today.
Um, you know, as people startthrowing on black fatigue, which

(32:13):
is something, just another deepsigh, I'll get into it.
But white culture is like, hey,you guys don't belong over here
.
So we go, okay, we'll go make aspace for ourselves.
We start enjoying ourselves, itlooks fun, and it's like, hey,
you're excluding us.
And it's it's like no, you toldus we didn't fit in.
So we just like doing our ownjam over here.

(32:34):
And it's like, yeah, but that'snot fair and we always take the
high road.
So we're like, all right, come,get down.
And then they're like you don'tbelong here either.
The place we created forourselves, that we just invited
you into now we don't belonghere because you're here, and
it's rinse and fucking repeat.

Shaka Omari (32:51):
Okay, so that's interesting that you bring that
up, because, to your point,sometimes people read into the
movies and things like that andget things deeper than what
maybe the artist intended, whichis what I love about art Two
people can look at something andget something completely
different.
That being said, what you justdescribed there, do you think
that kind of goes with?

Charles Malone (33:09):
what Remick?

Shaka Omari (33:10):
was doing when he was trying to be invited into
this space, and all of them wereat the door and they're like,
well, no, this is our spot.
I think you're looking for theplace down the street.
You know, Remick obviously actsso shocked when they're like
you know, are you part of theclan?
And we're like what?
No, sir, doesn't that kind of?
Do you think that scene kind ofencapsulate what you were just
saying about that meme?
They went, bought this, thisjuke joint, this place, this

(33:32):
sawmill, created their own space, created their own space.
Remick saw it, saw them havinga good time, wanted to join
because he wanted sammy's spot,wanted sammy's thing, assimilate
them into it and then discardthe rest maybe there's a simple,
simple answer I will with withRemick.

Charles Malone (33:50):
I'm gonna project something onto coogler
and the writers of this that I Ihope they intended when they
were writing the characterRemick is that he's one of these
villain, antagonist charactersthat you can actually argue both
directions right.
The tragic villain, yeah, and Iactually really love it because
, like, was he equal opportunity?
His thing was just a consuminghate.

(34:12):
He was equal opportunity hate,like he didn't want to suffer
alone, he wanted to make his ownspace and he technically was
inclusive, right, right, uh.
So yes and no, and I like thatyou can play devil's advocate
with Remick character because,like life, everything is not
just black and white and it'sdifferent degrees of gray.

Shaka Omari (34:32):
So yes, yes and no, yeah, that that's so.
I'm gonna go down the rabbithole with a lot of these
theories that I've been seeingthat is something that people
were saying is that Remick, hespeaks about his Irish heritage,
which I found this part to bevery interesting in the
breakdown right when he firstshows up, he shows up kind of
like a fallen angel or whateverand he drops down burning on

(34:54):
fire.
That's the symbolism somebodyhad mentioned, which I thought
okay, that was kind ofinteresting.
And then when they open up thedoor and they ask him who it is,
the first thing he says is theChoctaw are after me.
To which they say, oh, there'sno Indians using their
colloquialism around here.
You're sure it wasn't somelight-skinned people To which
when he sees the Ku Klux Klanthing, he then switches his
tactic, says Indians and thenoffers them money, which I found

(35:19):
interesting in that aspect,because when he's telling the
whole story at the end, wherehe's saying the Lord's Prayer
and he's saying those words werethe same words that were told
to me as they took mygrandfather's land, but they
always brought me comfort.
It kind of to me felt like, toyour point, Remick became what
it is he hated, which is theassimilation and the destruction
of his culture, and he's tryingto get back to it and he's

(35:41):
offering the same thing to Sammyand the rest for the advantage
of having access to his ancestry, but it's no different than
what happened to him, becauseSammy now has to give up his
soul, basically, and live onthis earth kind of in this
hateful environment, which Ithink is why annie calls them
vampires, worse than just the,the hates I think, yeah, there's

(36:03):
a lot of stuff though they'repulling from and I hope in like
the sequel or somewhere.

Charles Malone (36:07):
I was hoping to see boo hags which are like this
, like hoodoo folklore monster.
They're kind of likeskinwalkers if you google some
images.
It's creepy and I want someoneto put that into something of
course you would, with thehorror stuff yeah oh, dude, it's
so.
It's kind of like grotesque andyou like, yeah, so I hope a, if
you're listening, take that, goahead, someone do it.

(36:28):
I'm trying to, but someone beatme to it.
Um, yeah, with, with, withvrimic, and in this, this movie
as a whole, I think at least afew people, so I won't speak to
a larger group of people becauseI haven't talked to everyone.
It's making some black peoplequestion their belief system,
because what did we believe inculturally before coming to this

(36:53):
land and before Christianitywas forced upon people in Africa
?
What were the original gods andbelief systems before
christianity?
And it's making people feel likeI know one in particular too,
actually that like didn't knowhow they felt about the movie,
because it's making themselvesquestion what they believe if it

(37:14):
was forced upon them, whichthey don't want, obviously don't
want to think about, becausethen it breaks everything that
who you are was built upon.
Um, uh, it's.
I think it's really fascinating.
Yeah, I love this movie becausethere's just so much to dig
into.
That's why it's like my onecritique of like that piece
being really jarring and takingme out of it doesn't completely

(37:35):
throw away the whole how much Ilove the rest of the movie
interesting and can I?
can I just say they also touchon like colorism within the the
black community itself, becauseof like white passing people and
like light-skinned people and Ithink that both externally and
internally in society, I thinkwe sometimes treat black people

(37:58):
and black culture as a monolith.
Like this is one blackexperience, as if you know, I
grew up and much like yourselfpeople saying like everyone in
your house speaks so well andyou're always like as opposed to
what, and I think you knowwe've gotten tricked into
thinking that being educated andarticulate and like this is
just being assimilating towhiteness and like no one owns

(38:20):
betterment of oneself right ofhumanity.
Yeah yeah, so uh, you know, andit's not just a black community.
I have a lot of latin friendsthat feel the same thing, like
anytime you're doing anythingthat feels like it's not, I
think, what they I heard someoneput this really well of
confusing like low income, slashhood culture with your like

(38:42):
ethnic culture, and whether thatbe Latino or black, you're not
just what you see in like amusic video or how they depict
you in a TV show.
We are like much more than that.

Shaka Omari (38:54):
Yeah, you know, bringing up the bring that up, I
mean, like I did feel for whichI think is interesting, at the
end of the movie, right.
So, mary, who you're talkingabout, with the colorism, right
Back in those times, I thinkthat the term was like octoroon,
it was like the one drop rule,right.
And you know, I did feel forher character when she said, you

(39:16):
know, she never wanted to go inthat area, like she didn't want
to be, she didn't want to marrya white man, she didn't want to
do any of that kind of stuff.
So it really kind of put inperspective how this construct
of colorism really boxed peoplein and didn't allow people to be
free in a sense.

Charles Malone (39:32):
Yeah, I had like two thoughts there and they
were like battling, andsometimes my brain can't hold on
to multiple thoughts, but Ithink it's you that said like,
oh man, the problem with marywas like the moment she went
tried to get some white moneywas all fucked up for her, yeah.
So I think I'm gonna lose thatoriginal thought because I that
was just making me laugh becausewe had this conversation before
.
Yeah, um, no, it's, it's theone drop.

(39:57):
I think is one of the biggestjokes that's coming back really
hard to affect white society asa whole.
This like threat they're feelingof becoming the minority group,
whether it's not an immediatethreat, but you're talking about

(40:20):
15, 20 more years as, like youknow, the the this is a country
of immigrants.
People are constantly migratingfrom all over the world and
that one drop rule ininterracial relationships
threatens that number.
So it's like man, if the joke'son you for this one drop rule,
because anytime you're like onedrop.
If the joke's on you for thisone drop rule, because anytime
you're like one drop of any racethat's not white, you become

(40:42):
that other race.
Um right.
So that's, that's your fault.

Shaka Omari (40:46):
And that breaks down the foundation of this
aspect of segregation and allthose other things, because it's
like it just doesn't, it justdoesn't stack up, it just
doesn't stand.
You know, and it the thing thatyou brought up, that I said
about like the minute she wentand tried to get white money, is
also something I foundinteresting in this movie.
Right, money seems to be thecause of all the problems,
because they were having a goodtime in the juke joint until

(41:09):
they realized, oh my gosh, we'renot making any money.
I think it's smoke that says toAnnie I've gone all around this
world and I haven't seen anydemons, no ghosts, no anything.
All I've ever seen is money andpower.
So the minute that they go afterthe money and Mary uses her
proximity to whiteness to go getthe money, that lets everything
break loose.
She's let back in because shecan pass between both worlds and

(41:31):
that starts everything fallingdown.
And then, at the very end, asSmoke is starting to transition,
he's starting to see Annie andthe baby, he's pulled back into
the reality because Hogwood, ashe's dying, goes look, I have
some money, you know.
And that's when he killsHogwood, because it seems like
money is the only thing thatmatters, not your soul, not your

(41:52):
spirit, not your talent, justmoney.
Can I buy this off of you?

Charles Malone (41:55):
Well, I think you know, one thing that we
haven't discussed in any of ourconversations was the movie's
called Sinners and I haven'tcaught all of them, granted,
because I only watched the movieonce but the inclusion of, like
the seven deadly sinsthroughout the movie itself.

Shaka Omari (42:10):
Oh, I've seen it three times.
I didn't think about that.

Charles Malone (42:12):
Well, greed, right away, mm-hmm, um, you know
, was the number one money,money, money, money money.
And we're seeing that in oursociety right now because
everyone's burnt out, because,like true down economy didn't
work right, the lost I mean he,he, he had that whole tap that,
tap that uh, yeah, that is true,that's how he got it.

Shaka Omari (42:32):
Somebody made a joke about the reason the devil
was after sammy is because hehad that marinated.

Charles Malone (42:37):
Uh, mm-hmm, okay now I love the, just also that
I guess the actress really islike a quarter black or
something.
I just love the.
The train station.
He's like she turns around.
He's like you sure she's, yousure she's not, that's why, the
movie's so goddamn cheeky, uh,but lust I mean he.
He pretty much died for less.
He was left lusting after thatmarried black woman lost is

(42:59):
definitely there.

Shaka Omari (42:59):
Yeah, yeah, adul.
Yeah, adultery Cause the womanwas married.
What's her name?

Charles Malone (43:03):
Yeah, that's what I I still think it falls
under lust.
But yeah, the, the, the marriedblack woman, um, pride, pride
and ego is definitely there.
Um, you know, across the, thestack, brothers themselves and
Remick, um, even even preacherboy, was a bit prideful.
So the, the pride was there.

(43:24):
You know, I haven't, I haven'tcaught sloth yet or or gluttony,
um, I guess wrath you can kindof chuck up to any violence.
Envy, I thought was wasinteresting because, like you
have the, the envy of whiteculture.
Every time we're doingsomething for ourselves and
that's what I think about thekkk sheriff dude, yeah hogwood

(43:47):
yeah, okay, I'm really bad withnames, but he he never was going
to have them succeed like his.
Historically, at that time,anytime black people had more
money than a white person, itwas set to go south.
Um, so I've been trying to likecatch all the seven deadly sins
throughout centers.
But the the cultural comparisonof envy is I find I find

(44:12):
fascinating, because to me thatone still goes on very regularly
and it's a hard one to to breakand when we think about culture
vultures, it's just we're justsaying cultural appropriation
and this is maybe my ownpersonal philosophy or thought
of it is that once we can get toa place of cultural
appreciation over culturalcomparison, we'll start moving

(44:34):
into a better direction, becauseno, culture isn't isn better,
it's just different.
And if we can startappreciating people for their
differences instead of stackingand comparing the differences,
we can move forward in a moreproductive way.

Shaka Omari (44:51):
I mean that's a beautiful way of putting it.
You've also got me now thinkingabout the seven deadly sins and
I'm trying to go through all ofthem in the movie as well,
because I mean mean gluttonywould would be alcohol, an
alcoholic be considered gluttony, because that would be like
delta slim and assuming morethan you can handle.

Charles Malone (45:09):
Oh, okay, okay.
The the dude with the alcohol.
Um yeah, because it was theirish, it was the irish beer.

Shaka Omari (45:16):
Okay, yeah all you can consume right, exactly that,
that was the Irish beer, okayyeah, all you can consume.
Right, Exactly that.
That was the thing that soldhim to switch from his regular,
his regular job.

Charles Malone (45:24):
This is why it's such a collaborative industry.
Some people just put thingstogether in ways that you didn't
yeah.

Shaka Omari (45:29):
Yeah, it's art.
I love that man.
See, now I'm going to have togo a character we haven't
touched on, because we'vetouched on Mary.
You know the white passing.
We've touched on Sammy.
I actually want to go a littledeeper in Sammy and you were
talking about Christianity.
We talked about Death to Slim.
You know that scene with himwhere he's talking about how the

(45:51):
blues came to pass, where hestarts singing.
I saw an interview where hesaid that was just improv and
kudos to Delroy for that.
Yeah, I'm saying on a firstname.

Charles Malone (45:59):
Phenomenal actor .

Shaka Omari (46:01):
Yeah, just brilliant, choosing to make that
choice, the pain to starthumming and singing, and that's
you know.
That is the blues we talkedabout the Smokestack twins.
Man, I can't, that's a tonguetwister.
It's all good, where you knowthe pride.
But I had a question for youwhat do you think about grace?

(46:23):
Grace and bell, they're the,the chinese shop owners.
I thought it's a loaded fuckingquestion.
My, my fiancee is chinesethat's why I want to get your
perspective.

Charles Malone (46:34):
Yeah, I, I thought it was great because
with with a little bit ofresearch and just knowing
historically they, they wereable to move, as they are now,
between both communitiesseamlessly, so like they were
had a store for the black folksand then they had a store for
the white folks and they're justkind of caught in the middle,

(46:55):
which it still feels that way,and this whole like model
minority thing I think grace gota lot of flack for like opening
the door and bringing in thethe chaos, but she was stuck
between a rock and a hard place.
Like she's trying to make surethey don't go home and get her
daughter which I mean that wasnever gonna win choose.

(47:15):
She was in a lose-losesituation.
Right, you go out, you die andjoin your daughter.
You let the men fight, you die,they go home and get your
daughter anyway.
But at some points there Ithink they kind of put that kind
of like Emmett Till situationthere of like the uncle when the
clan came for Emmett was likeit's either the boy or your

(47:39):
whole family and that's like animpossible choice.

Shaka Omari (47:42):
A Sophie's Choice kind of thing.

Charles Malone (47:44):
Yeah, but I love to see us as allies because I
think we're regularly pittedagainst each other in society
and I'll tell you, I'muncomfortable in Asian spaces as
much as probably an asianperson in black spaces.
I think that my own personalexperience one group is actually

(48:08):
a little bit more accepting, uh, than the other one.
Um, and I think I was talkingto an old vet and I love talking
to old vets who served in thiscountry because it's the duality
and the internal confliction oflike feeling not respected, as
a black veteran, for everythingyou do for this country while

(48:29):
simultaneously having pride forfighting for your country.
It is like so wild.
And he this particular event Iwas talking to fought in the
Korean war and we were talkingabout I was coming fresh off of
sinners after when I met him andI was like man it does suck
that the black community doesn'tget enough respect for the
rights that we all have asamericans, and other racial

(48:53):
groups constantly just see us aslike thugs or the problem.
You know you're going to be theangry black man or the angry
black woman in the workplacewhen, like know you're going to
be the angry black man or theangry black women in the
workplace when, like, themajority of people wouldn't have
the freedoms that they have nowwithout us fighting for
ourselves and everyone.

Shaka Omari (49:09):
Yeah that, yeah that.
That is, as I say, like that is, it's a perspective I don't
think that gets talked about alot Like we're not just fighting
for ourselves, we're fightingfor base level humanity, I guess
is the best way to put it.
You know, it's like when you'veseen the darker side of
humanity, you're choosing to notlet somebody else feel that

(49:31):
it's not just about you, it'sabout no one should feel that
kind of thing.

Charles Malone (49:34):
Yeah, it's, it's , it's, we've we've been kind of
like duped.
I mean, critical thinking inour country is again, I only
speak to what I know in ourcountry is it's in a crapshoot.
And I say that because if you,if you look out into the world

(49:55):
globally, I mean everyone has aproblem.
You have the cartel, the Yakuza, the triad, the mafia, the
Russian mafia, the, the russian.
You have these gangs and drugrunners and drug dealers and gun
runners, like, whether you'rein the middle east or in some
like small tiny island, this islike a low income, lack of
education, like, yeah, likeopportunity, like this is what
you think you have to do to toget by, and you're looking for
the fastest dollar.

(50:16):
This is not a problem of anyone specific racial group or you
wouldn't have these things inevery other country when it's uh
it is classism, but the.
The word I'm looking for is, uh,like a homogenous, like yeah
one, it's only one race in thiscountry and you still have this
problem.
It's not just black people.

Shaka Omari (50:34):
I will go a little nerdy with this and then, like
the deep thing, I do find itinteresting, speaking of you
know, and Grace, that thecharacter that's getting the
most flack in that aspect is theone that's named Grace, you
know, and the whole point of thewhole movie is called Sinners,
and it's like the one personthat should have grace is Grace
because, you're right, she isput through a rock and a hard
place.
And then I'm like the nerdy.

(50:54):
Probably people getting youknow things that Ryan Coogler
didn't intend.
I saw somebody say somethingabout which I thought was
beautifully done, how they're onboth sides of the street, right
, because you know, there's thewhite store and the black store.
So they're kind of like thebridge between the two races in
this community.
They're able to flow in between.
But when Grace stabs her husband, at the end it also shows like

(51:17):
a bridge and it's burning, whichsome people interpret that as
when you're talking about we'reallies, we're all allies, until
we get put in a position wherewe have to think about ourselves
, and when we do that, that'swhen the whole thing burns down,
that's when it allSelf-preservation, exactly,
exactly and to your point.
It's really hard to then judgesomebody when they're put

(51:38):
between a rock and a hard placeand they got to think am I doing
this for the community or am Igoing to do this for my
immediate family?

Charles Malone (51:44):
and I think that's a beautiful way of
interpreting that whole sceneand giving grace, a little grace
, yeah, I, I give grace, all thegrace, because she was going to
lose.
There was like no way of herrealistically saying like she
gets turned, they go home andturn her daughter, they, they
open the doors, their chances oflosing were really great, which
they did, and then they go homeand turn her daughter anyway

(52:06):
yeah the the chances were soslim of her ever really saving
her daughter from this yeah, shejust wanted to go out like a
boss, I guess, and in thataspect I mean I guess she did
because they all died.

Shaka Omari (52:16):
She did yes yeah, she was the she's she's, I think
killed the first vampire.
She stabbed both straight upwhile being on fire, like she
was.
She was like I'm I'm taking youout with me you're not going
home and getting our girl no soI hope.

Charles Malone (52:28):
I hope in that case grace's daughter comes back
as an older lady, a vampirehunter yeah, yeah, yeah, dope.

Shaka Omari (52:35):
What did you think about the?
Michelle yeah you heard it herefirst, folks, you heard it here
first.
Um.
What did you think about the?
Maybe michelle yeah, you heardit here first, folks, you heard
it here first.
Um.
What did you think about theending um with?

Charles Malone (52:44):
with the alternate ending or the regular
ending.
Not the alternate ending butlike the extra credit scene or
the extra, extra credit scene.
Yeah uh, both sammy leaving thelike, going back to his dad and
choosing to go out.
Anyway, you know, I think he hestill did what was right for
him.
He was never going back to thechurch, he would have dealt with
faith on his his own terms.

(53:06):
And I dig I I.
It resonated with me because Ifeel like, as someone who grew
up in the church and with thecatholic school, it never I
asked too many questions and itdoesn't mean I'm a heathen, I
just decided to deal with faithbetween me and God.

Shaka Omari (53:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of as someone who's
a man of faith myself, that'ssomething I got out of it.
The production designer gosh Ican't remember her name right
now, but she actually wastweeting out some interesting
things and she was saying likethe scene where it's Sammy and
his father in the church, thecrosses, they represent the
father, the son, the Holy Ghost,and that's kind of what Sammy

(53:43):
and the father kind of representin that aspect, and that
they're all 33 inches apart,which is about the age when
Jesus started his thing.

Charles Malone (53:51):
Don't somebody talk about the gone years of
Jesus?

Shaka Omari (53:54):
Yeah, that's a different podcast.
We can go down that routeCompletely different.
But I really thought it wasinteresting because the very
end-to-end credit scene whereSammy's playing this little
light of mine in the church, buthe's playing it like a blues
musician it goes back to thebeginning of the movie where his
father says you know, when youcome in, I want you to lead the
kids choir in this little lightof mine.
And what I love about thatending scene, which I think

(54:17):
encapsulates the whole moviebeing called Sinners, is it
Sammy using the light that hehas, the talent that he has in
the way it is that is best forhim, which is playing blues
music.
It may not be in achurch-setting atmosphere, the
way that his father, the rulesthat his father said it should
be.
He's letting his light shine.
He's letting his light shinethe way that it should and it's

(54:40):
bringing joy to people.
It's bringing happiness topeople.
It's not making people heathens.
For a moment, which I think tiesinto the second thing.
For a moment we got to be free.
I almost broke down cryingbecause I know what that feels
like when you don't have thejudgment, you don't have the

(55:09):
pressure to try to be a perfecthuman being You're just allowed
to be for a moment.
It is, I think, what is trulyfree, and I think that's the
whole point of you know, if youthink biblically, jesus saying
like you know, all of us aresinners, we've all fallen short.
It's like there's no room tojudge everybody.
Instead, we should all be, justfor a moment, trying to help
each other.
Not going to get on a sermon,but that's just what I thought

(55:31):
about the whole thing.

Charles Malone (55:32):
Yeah, I think there's something I recently
discovered a book, I think it'slike covered a book.
Um, I think it's like the bodykeeps the score and it's about
the like a physical stress onyour body, of like trauma and
when you are in a position to becompletely uninhibited by the
pressures of either yoursurroundings or society.

(55:53):
It is, it is freeing and itdoes feel feel good.
I think one of the when I movedout to california I was jobless
for like a year and some changeand I didn't really have like a
stable place.
I was like crashing with people.
There was something oddlyfreeing about living out of a
duffel bag and you know, I'mdoing decently now.

(56:15):
I guess I have a kid, I afamily, but it's still like.
But then the pressures changeand there is something just like
just freeing.
So so, yeah, it's that that,that that freedom is different
for everyone.
But yeah, I get it.
Yeah.
And then the, the, the endcredit scene.
I like how they didn't turn,turn him and let him like he

(56:37):
still want to go on his termsthe way he lived.
Yeah, yeah that that Irespected.

Shaka Omari (56:41):
I respected, like the love and respect they still
had for him, despite the factthat they were vampires.
You know, yeah, I crazy movielike just you brought up some
other shows that you told meabout what you just said.
There brought up some othershows which I think we'll talk
about in a future podcast, butthe uh, the uh, the John Hamm
Apple.

Charles Malone (57:00):
Oh yeah, we're going to save it, Cause that
that was yeah, yeah, our friendsand neighbors will just drop it
because that's awesome.
That's really good questions.

Shaka Omari (57:07):
Yeah, yeah.

Charles Malone (57:08):
Yeah, but again love the movie.
There's so much to dig into.
You've seen it three times I.
There's a lot, there's a lotand it's all hard to do in the
time it takes to do a podcastbecause there's just we can keep
finding new things to pick up,to pick at that completely

(57:29):
correlate and are still relevant, like right now in society and
like Cougar's pulling from some,like real places and it's dope.
And we didn't really get intolike the music.
Like we talked about that onesequence, but really the music
from start to finish was used sobeautifully and I actually
found one person that found themusic distracting.
But I thought the sound, designand music together, the way

(57:51):
they transitioned and bledthings in and out, it was like
perfectly weaved into this movieand that's what I'm looking
forward to going I alreadylistened to the soundtrack but
like I'm really going back tostudy like what's called like
the j cuts and the l cuts of,like how they use audio to glue
scenes together and and it'syeah, that scene where she
lights the match and it goesstraight into the music, even

(58:14):
even the preacher boy.
That high note when the roof'son fire, yes to the pan down to
to Remick was just so seamlessto me also I realized listening
to it, it was auto-tuned.

Shaka Omari (58:25):
So to your whole thing's going so future because
rap music ends up usingauto-tune.

Charles Malone (58:31):
At some point in time I was like, oh, that's
insane I know it feels likewe're wrapping this up soon, but
we also didn't like.
I want to redo a little bitmore research for the cultural
relevancy of like making Remickirish and folk music.
I know Ryan said his name likeRyan Coogler.

Shaka Omari (58:48):
One of his names is irish and he's always been
fascinated with that, but yeahyeah, it sounds to me like we're
gonna have to do a secondpodcast because you're also
irish, mr malone.
Um, there's, you're right, wedidn't touch on the chakta
indians and the irish connection, and yeah, it's uh, I'm also
indian, it's.

Charles Malone (59:04):
It's why this movie is definitely for me.
But my I come from amulti-generational, multi-ethnic
family and you know my irishfamily members in massachusetts
grew up sandwiched next to toblack people and they they were
like seamlessly intertwined witheach other's and I grew up in
this really sheltered way of notseeing a racial divide because

(59:28):
we were all equals, both likewealthy people doing good for
themselves on both sides as wellas like people doing shit they
shouldn't do on both sides.
So you know, I kind of grew upin a definitely a sheltered,
special way of like neverexperiencing early on that, that
major difference.
So I think one of the things Ibring to my own storytelling is

(59:50):
like I see people as people,right, not say I'm not.
No, I'm not saying I don't seecolor because it exists, yes,
but I think both when creatingstories and when I'm going into
projects that I'm producing, um,I look for things that
transcend the boxes we put eachother in, because the core

(01:00:12):
essence of the human experiencewe all feel, regardless of where
we're from, which is why thismovie is still resonant, no
matter like what you, everyoneknows what it's like to
experience loss.

Shaka Omari (01:00:21):
Yes.

Charles Malone (01:00:22):
People are showing grace.
Grace because that's animpossible choice for any person
.

Shaka Omari (01:00:26):
Right, this is, this is why I like art.
I think it is the thing thatconnects us, you know like.
It is the thing to your pointwhich is why we started.
You know, our journey in thisbusiness is because we all share
the same human experiences,despite the culture, despite the
region, despite, you know,being on the other side of the
world.
We can all resonate with thesefeelings, feelings of I'm not

(01:00:48):
good enough, these feelings of Idon't belong here, these
feelings of you can't cross thatside of the street.
All of those things that Ithink encompasses this movie so
brilliantly.
It also inspired me me like Ineed to, to work on my craft
like I really need to.

Charles Malone (01:01:04):
Oh yeah, the sinners is definitely a movie
that makes you want to like dothe thing that you say you want
to do.
It's easy to to get analysis,paralysis because you want
something to be perfect or good,but I recommend everyone.
As we wrap this up, you clearlyknow sinners was directed by
Ryan Coogler.
Go listen to some of the earlyepisodes of proximity media his

(01:01:25):
podcast.
He talks about his journey withhis founder.
Or go listen to team deaconsroger deacons podcast.
He interviews ryan Coogler.
Coogler is not shy aboutsharing his experience.
Like he says Fruitvale, hedidn't.
He kind of felt like he was outof his depths, like he'd never
managed almost a million dollarsbefore.
And then he went to Creed andgot 30 million and again felt

(01:01:47):
underwater.
And then again with BlackPanther he'd never managed close
to $200 million.
And again it's going back tothe original thing I said like
sometimes we're expected to knoweverything and you're never
going to know everything, sojust start doing something.

Shaka Omari (01:02:01):
A hundred percent.

Charles Malone (01:02:02):
Get out there.

Shaka Omari (01:02:02):
Live your passion.

Charles Malone (01:02:03):
Yeah, all right, I think that's kind of like
getting to the end.
Here we're going to wrap thingsup.
You want to give them your,where, the, where the, follow
the Shaka at, or the Instagramsocial media stuff.

Shaka Omari (01:02:14):
Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at Shaka
Omari, or you can follow ourproduction company at open queue
productions on IG, which ispretty much where we're at most
of the time.

Charles Malone (01:02:23):
And then we're going to stand this up on the
YouTube, which we do, you know,the whole deal with the like and
subscribe, and you can followme in the grocery store, because
I don't have social media.
Don't follow me in the groce rystore Trader Joe's.

Shaka Omari (01:02:35):
You're going to have an influx of people.
Well, thank you for listeningto our first podcast and we will
catch you on the flip side.
The Open Queue is an Open Queueproduction.
If you like the show, be sureto follow, rate and review it on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify or yourfavorite podcast app, and tell

(01:02:56):
your friends and fam to do thesame.
Also, feel free to share a linkto someone who you think might
really enjoy this conversation.
The music you're currentlylistening to is Delta Slim from
the movie Sinners, composed byLudwig Göransson.
Until next time, see you in thequeue.