September 27, 2025 • 45 mins
Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of abuse and other mature topics.
We talk about the intimate and sacred gift of sex. Our culture tells us all kinds of lies about sex,
and we need to replace those lies with the beauty of God’s design for sexuality within marriage.
Our goal isn’t shame—it’s healing, clarity, and joy in following God’s plan.
QUESTIONS:
1. How have past experiences, trauma, or cultural messaging shaped your understanding of
sexuality?
2. Why does viewing sex as a gift or a right shape the way couples enjoy it?
3. In what ways can you make sexual intimacy in marriage an act of worship?
READ MORE:
- “Every good and perfect gift” in James 1:17
- Dual Purpose of Sexual Intimacy in Malachi 2:15–16 and Song of Solomon (entire book)
- Fulfilling each other’s needs in 1 Corinthians 7:1–5
- Loving the Lord and each other in Matthew 22:37–39
- God’s design for marriage as covenant in Genesis 2:24
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the overflow with
Brandon and Susan.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
And we are so excited to talk about today, an area in
relationships. Yeah. You know,we have these big broad
categories, and today we're inthe category of relationships.
We're gonna talk a lot aboutrelationships. Yes.
But specifically, we wannatackle a tough issue to talk
(00:25):
about. Yeah. It's the mostintimate of all areas in a
relationship. It is everywherein our culture. Yeah.
And we're gonna talk about ittoday. We're gonna talk about
sex and romance.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah. Sex and romance. And when you said that
we're so excited to talk aboutit, it made me laugh because
it's we're excited.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We are, I know, we are excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
But it's an exciting topic.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
We're passionate.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yes, we are, we're passionate.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Okay, why are you excited? And I'll tell why I'm
excited.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Okay, I'm excited for multiple reasons. I think this
is an area that impactseveryone. We were made as sexual
beings. We were made for peoplewho desire to feel loved and to
encounter love in a romanticway. There's just something
inside of us.
And some people have the gift ofsingleness. In my experience,
(01:27):
that's a rare gift. And by gift,I don't mean that just that
you're single. I mean that youwant to be single. That's the
rare gift.
And so with that said, becauseback to our worldview, we
understand from the bible thatwe are are broken because of sin
apart from the restoration ofJesus and his holy spirit at
work within us, that this isanother one of those areas where
(01:50):
if we just allow it to default,then it'll destroy.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Totally agree. Default is the worst position to
be in on this topic. Here's whyI am excited. I'm excited
because of the lies that arebeing told in our culture.
Because there is a current.
You know, I'm I'm a I love tofish, and I'll bass fish and I
love bass fishing from a boat. Ikinda don't wanna bass fish if
(02:16):
I'm not in a boat. I mean, I'lldo it from the from the shore,
but I really wanna be in a boat.Yeah. And but when I fly fish, I
don't wanna be in a boat.
I wanna wade into the water. Andone of the things you learn when
you're a fly fisherman is you'vegotta be able to read the water
because ignorantly, you couldthink that the current is not
(02:37):
that strong and then you'reheaded out to go retrieve a fly
or get your line out of sometrees or whatever, and all of
sudden you're like, what have Idone? I'm in the middle of a
current. I feel I'm on slipperyrocks underwater, and I feel the
current taking my legs out fromunder me. And I think that
that's our posture towardsexuality and our culture.
(02:57):
There is a very strong currentthat is sweeping the great
majority of peoplephilosophically regarding what
it teaches about sex. And sadly,the church has largely been
silent other than don't have sexbefore marriage, which is a
great message, but it'sinsufficient. It's not enough.
(03:20):
And so this is our contributionto talk about to the young
generation, more than just waittill marriage. Here's what's on
the other side of marriage thatyou're waiting for.
And then, number two, to maybeeven a larger audience, here's
what it looks like for it to behealthy.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah. So good.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
There's a lot of unhealthy sexuality in
relationships right now inmarriages. Let's talk about
that.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah. So what I heard you saying is you're excited to
combat the lies Yes. Am. Of theenemy and to show God's great
design that so many of us missif we're not looking for it. So,
yeah, I mean, this is obviouslysuch a sensitive topic.
I mean, even as we sit here andtalk about it, this is private.
This is a personal topic.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's our private.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah. It's our private topic. It's our personal
life. It's, know, you if you'remarried, it's your
Speaker 1 (04:10):
personal We don't even enjoy.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah. It's not like we wanna talk about I mean, we
do enjoy.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Oh, wait. We enjoy. We enjoy.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay. We enjoy. Too far, I set myself up for that
one.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, took me by his right. Usually I'm the one who
would Well, just go
Speaker 2 (04:25):
sounded like, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But you know, we don't enjoy like talking about
it in a sense that this is avery private area even for us.
Yeah. But I so much more aminvested in
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, conquering the and it's because, I mean,
firsthand we have witnessedpeople we love deeply. I know in
my own life, my journey beforeJesus got ahold of my heart, and
so many people that we see inour church that I've counseled,
wonderful people that havestepped into my office. There is
(04:57):
a thread, back to that pattern,of sexuality outside God's
design brings so much pain.Yeah. So much heartache, so
much, and it's crazy.
It's not limited to one type.Right. Or one specific area of
sexual brokenness. It's all ofit. It's like, it's either God's
way or bust.
(05:17):
And so, you know, a lot of timeseven in our culture, people like
to highlight certaindemographics, if you will, of
sexual brokenness like
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Oh yeah, at least I'm not, hey, I may be having sex
with my girlfriend, but at leastI'm not same sex attracted.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Right, at least I'm not same sex having same sex, At
you least I'm not doing that.And we compartmentalize when all
of it is not God's best for us.And God has a beautiful design
and he wants us all to be onthat beautiful And
understanding, I think, I thinkmaybe let's kick something off
here. The concept that sex is agift, not a right.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
This is earth shattering. Yeah. Okay? And sex
is a gift, not a right. Probablythat is the bedrock lie in our
culture that has led to so muchdysfunction that sex is a right.
I feel something, who are you totell me I shouldn't
Speaker 2 (06:17):
act
Speaker 1 (06:18):
on that feeling? Who are you to tell me that the way
I love, what's the big phrase,love is love? The way I love,
who are you to tell me that Ican't love the way I wanna love?
That all goes back to thebedrock of sex is a
Speaker 2 (06:33):
right. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
People march to proclaim the way I feel like I
wanna have love is my right. Sexis a right.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah. It's checked out. Where the reality
is, once again, James chapterone, every good and perfect
gift, every good and perfectthing is a gift from God. It's a
gift.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Father of lights.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes. He is the father of lights. He's the father of
creating sex. And so it's sopowerful and I think we just get
confused about it and we get itwrong. And it made me think of
it early, early in our marriage.
I don't know, tell me if youremember this. We were early in
and there was just this onetime, because sex is a journey
for every
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I remember every single time,
Speaker 2 (07:16):
so Okay, go Not talking about
Speaker 1 (07:19):
the times. Every single
Speaker 2 (07:23):
No, no, but we're threading the needle here
people, so hang with us. But yousaid to me, and it was regarding
this topic in our marriage, justof sex in general, right?
Because that's supposed to be,it is a part of a healthy
marriage. And you said, youknow, do you realize the power
that you have over me? Do youremember this?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I do. I do remember that.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And it was a moment where the Lord
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Very vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah. And the Lord corrected.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Corrected us both.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Corrected us both.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I'll tell you how it corrected me after we really
processed that. It shouldn'thave power over me like that.
It's true. That is a very stronginfluence in a marriage. It is
a, it can be a weapon in amarriage.
But this is something maybewe'll dive into a little more in
a second when we fully developthis. But big idea. When sex is
(08:19):
a gift and not a right, then howcould you ever be, now let me
say it negatively. Let me say itthe other way. If sex is a right
and not a gift, how could youever be happy if you're not
having sex?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
But the Christ follower, here's where I wanna
aim you toward. This is I'vetalked to a lot of men about
this. Yeah. I remember being atone of our men's conferences,
and it was actually a getawaywhere we were at a retreat
center. And we brought in awonderful colleague and biblical
counselor, and he said, guys,you can have a life if your wife
(08:55):
is depriving you from sex.
And that was just like, okay, Iwanna hear more. Not that you
had been, because you hadn't,but just the truth of that.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And he began to unpack how, hey, that's broken,
it's not right, there'sinjustice there, there's pain
there, we could talk about that.But are you going to allow your
happiness, and truly yourhappiness, okay, to be measured
there? Some people have chronicpain. Are you just doomed not to
(09:27):
be happy because you havechronic pain? Wow.
Are you doomed to never be happyor have joy in the Lord? And his
thing was, man, find your joy inthe Lord. Yeah. And even when
this relationship is broken andit's not functioning correctly,
even dysfunctionally, find yourjoy in the Lord. What a truth.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, so powerful. And I remember the day that you
said that to me.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And if you can unpack that a little better than me,
please do. Oh yeah. Like I'mkind of bouncing around with
you.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
No, would tag team for sure. And I'm processing as
we're even talking. But Iremembered when that moment when
you said that and I instantlyfelt a weight I wasn't capable
of carrying.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And
Speaker 2 (10:04):
that began the conversation that I cannot have
that kind of power in your life.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Because what happens when I disappoint you? What
happens if it's not the way orthe perfect time or whatever
that might be, fill in theblank. And that can't just be
about sex, that can be about alot of things when it comes to
marriage. If instead
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Communication, gift giving,
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, compliments, all the things, how we all fall
short. Parenting. Parenting,yeah. And if I or of you, if I
carry the kind of weight in mylife where your happiness is
dependent on me, that I havepower over you, those are
frightening words. Those arescary.
You're a danger zone kind ofword. So that was one thing. And
(10:46):
we talked through that. It wasvery, very powerful. Those
things you shared with me longago when you heard that
commentary about, you know, ifyou are in a marriage, which
we'll talk about
Speaker 1 (10:55):
in No a pastor, it was Jeremy Lullock.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Was it really?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
It was Jeremy Lullock.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, okay, one of our dear colleagues, wonderful
counselor, Jeremy Lellick, heleads Metroplex counseling. But
yeah, what a great phrase thateven in those situations, we
have a greater God who is allpowerful over our life. And so
that's the first thing is Ithink anytime we place another
(11:19):
person, and you are trying to dothis, but in a position that
only God can be in.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, didn't understand that's what I was
doing.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
The weight of it. Yeah, you had no idea the weight
of that, but words matter. Youand I both. Mean, this is one of
our big beliefs. Words matter,and underneath the words,
there's beliefs.
And so I think one of the thingsthat I still learned, but I
learned in that moment, is notto take on the weight that you
were shifting. Instead, weworked through that. But also to
(11:47):
acknowledge, hey, the bible'strue. And sex is a powerful
gift. It's not just a gift.
It's a powerful gift, and it'spart of the inner woven elements
to God's design in a marriage.There
Speaker 1 (12:02):
is a special power in sexuality. You just said it. It
is a powerful gift. Yeah. And Iwanna dip into your experience
as a counselor for a moment.
When you, you come across a lotof different things. You come
across marriage, lack ofcommunication, bad conflict
resolution, but when it comes tosexual struggles, okay, as a
(12:30):
counselor, would you say thatthat's a harder ball of yarn to
untangle? Would you say thatsexual trauma in your past is
different than physical trauma?I mean, help just help me
understand.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah. Absolutely. I would say that when it comes to
sex, sexual sin, sexualbrokenness, certainly sexual
abuse, that imagine, as you weresaying that, I just imagined
like a really glassy, smooth,clear lake. And then you take
this big rock and you throw itin the in the water. Well, yes,
you see the big splash of theincident, but then you watch the
(13:06):
ripples that keep going on thewater.
And I believe that sometimeswhat happens to our soul, to our
mind, to our well-being, and wedon't even understand because it
the ripples come in manydifferent forms and many
different packaging. They're notall they don't all look the
same, although there arepatterns. I would love to export
to share talk about that. Butjust the pain. Mhmm.
Something was broken. Somethingwas lost. Maybe it's feeling.
(13:31):
Maybe it's feeling numb. Maybeno longer being able to enjoy
something God's way because ofthe numbness that was left there
by the pain.
Maybe it's anger that rage is sodeep that other relationships
are being impacted and there'snot an ability for closeness
with other people. The breakingof trust. I mean, you could go
on and on and on.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Or your first experiences were broken
experiences. Yeah. And they, itmakes it very difficult for you
to have normal experiences.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Oh, for sure. Even things that can impact our
brain. Yep. Physiologically,biologically, first experiences
that we have, it's almost likeit imprints on us. So if
someone, and I've got a casestudy right now, thinking of a,
this is a long, long time ago,and there was an individual who
was struggling with attractionto six year old boys.
(14:17):
And this person was younghimself, but old enough to not
be at all in that, I mean, thatspace. Well, he had been
sexually abused.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Mhmm.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And so as we began to unpack the reality of how just
Speaker 1 (14:32):
because Thank God he sought help.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Thank God he sought help.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Just because you feel these feelings, let's unpack why
you feel these feelings. Andwhen he understood that our
bodies are created to enjoy sexand experience sex, by God. And
so when our first experience inany way, shape, or form of the
pleasure, even just physically,happens to us, we can easily
(14:58):
associate it with whatever thatexperience was about. And so
even in something as terriblefor him as being sexually
abused, that sexual abuse forhim and for most people, you
can't divorce the fact that yourbody's involved and was created
to enjoy. And so it's very forthose who have been abused.
I mean, I just wanna say Godsees you, loves you, and heals
(15:18):
you as you run to him. But thatcan cause so much shame and
confusion because why did Ienjoy it? It must have been my
fault. It must have been, Ibrought this on myself. And no,
the truth is God created yourbody to enjoy sex, but it was
created for a very specificenvironment of marriage with the
opposite sex in the covenant ofmarriage.
(15:39):
And so when that's abused,there's confusion. And if not
healed correctly, all hurt andall pain and all wounds, if not
healed correctly, leads to morebrokenness. Yeah. Which is what
that young man was potentiallyon the path toward until he
began to seek the Lord.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, and I would just like to take this moment to
just say that if you have ex Imean, we just opened the door a
heavy topic, and it just wentthere. And we don't wanna avoid
that because this is real. Andif you are someone that has
experienced that kind ofbrokenness and you carry shame
(16:15):
or confusion, or just hearingabout that just puts a weight on
you, I want you to know, man, Ijust would love to pray for you
right now and just to have amoment. I feel led by the Lord.
For anyone listening to this,that just hit them hard, to just
have a moment.
And so Susan, could you pray forus? You know, just, I think you,
(16:39):
you've walked with so manywho've had that pain.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Whether it was from a family member or someone they
knew or whatever. Yeah. Couldyou just pray for that person?
Just look at them right now andjust pray for them.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Love to do that. Oh God, we come to you right now,
we bring every part of ourbrokenness and we lay it at the
foot of your cross, Lord. And Ithank you that you tell us we
can boldly come into your throneroom, Father, with our needs and
our pain. And God, pray for theperson listening right now who
maybe sexual abuse is part oftheir story and somewhere they
were hurt deeply by this sin orby this someone doing this to
(17:14):
them, God, and even just someoneright now, just sexual
discussion in general is such aplace of pain. God, I am asking
that you would heal them in thismoment, that God, as they put
their faith and trust in you,Jesus, that this would be
another seed in the ground oftheir life to plant healing.
You are Jehovah Rapha, the Godwho heals us. And I pray that
(17:36):
this man or this womanlistening, this student,
whoever's listening to the soundof our voices right now, that
God, they would place their handin yours and trust you with the
path towards healing andwholeness. There is nothing that
you are not able to overcome.There is nothing that you cannot
repair and restore. And so God,what happened in the past, God,
(17:57):
it does not define us becauseyou, oh God, define who we are
and we thank you.
So I just pray for that miraclein the name of Jesus over
someone's life, amen.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, it's heavy.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
It is heavy. And we believe in the power of prayer.
We believe in God using this foras many times as it's watched
over and over and forwarded toothers and sent to others. We
believe that moment may reallybe a breakthrough for somebody.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
It really may be and since we're on this particular
aspect Let's
Speaker 1 (18:25):
not say maybe, let's say it will be.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Did I say maybe?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, it really may be.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Oh, it will.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
It will be.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
That's right, declare it.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Come on.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Oh, it will be, thank you, words matter.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Words matter.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Words matter, so good. And while we're on this
topic, I just, you know, this issomething you and I've talked
much about and it's somethingI've seen, again, a pattern over
and over, is when it comes toprecious people, maybe person
you're listening right now toour conversation that have same
sex attraction, that often, notalways, but often there's very
(19:00):
specific patterns that you cantrace back to their past. Mhmm.
And I'll give a couple of thosepatterns. One might be the
pattern of sexual abuse.
That is a big one. If you lookstatistically at people who have
same sex attraction or in samesex relationships, often,
somewhere, there's a history ofabuse. It could have been a
(19:20):
coach, could have been a choirdirector, it could have been a,
sadly, someone in the church. Itcould have been so many
different figures in their life.God bless.
An older teen, you know, to ayounger boy or a girl. These are
just realities that I have seenand encountered, and I know that
(19:40):
I'm not the only one. And thatthose things, again, like I said
before, it's like an imprints onyou. And that's your first
experience or significantsignificant experience, and your
body keeps score of that, hasgone through that. And if not
healed correctly, you assume,that's I'm gay too.
I'm gay. And I I also think thesecond pattern I've seen is
(20:03):
maybe not an abuse. It could betwo people who both are willing,
someone who is curious, someonewho even alcohol is introduced
or there's a substanceintroduced and not always
though. And if your first orearly experiences, you're having
those same sex experiences, itcan again cause your brain and
(20:25):
cause your body and cause yourmind to latch on and go, well, I
must be gay. And so then youbegin to step, take the next
step and live that life outrather than saying, God, what's
your plan for me?
God, heal the areas of my lifeto be in with, you know,
accordance to your will andplan.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
The power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that
we all have broken areas of ourlife. We all have areas that we
say, okay, What I want does notalign with what God says. Yeah.
And you have a choice. You know?
Do you, do you allow God toshape you, or do you try to
(21:03):
shape God to you?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
That again.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Do you allow God to shape you? And specifically, do
you allow God's word to shapeyou, or are you trying to shape
and reshape God's word for you.And, there've been attempts, and
we could do a whole podcast onon same sex sex attraction.
Yeah. Maybe we should.
(21:25):
But there've been attempts, andreally deal with this, there've
been attempts to biblically showhow it's okay. And it's weak,
it's bad scholarship, it's just,it's bankrupt of integrity and a
true reading of the word of God.It's just, it's frankly absurd.
(21:46):
But with that said, our tone andour posture, this is where the
local church is so powerful.We're not just speaking to you
right now.
We have a church. Yeah. And it'sreal. And we deal with people
every week.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And it has been our honor to walk with people who
have trusted God even when theydidn't feel it.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
It has been our honor, and it will continue to
be our honor, when somebodysays, I feel same sex
attraction, but I am trustingGod's way. I believe the rewards
you will receive for obeying Godand trusting him with your
affections is substantial. And Ibelieve God will give you a
(22:35):
grace. And God will give you areward. And we've seen that
happen
Speaker 2 (22:39):
We at
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Keystone
Speaker 2 (22:41):
have. And that's why I think you said it earlier.
It's not limited to a specific,or maybe we both did, a specific
type of sexual brokenness. Thereis a whole cafeteria style,
different options of how webreak bad when it comes to God's
gift of sex. And we've seen thatplay out in a couple that were
living together and sleepingtogether before marriage, but
(23:03):
really did wanna begin to followGod, and that was hard.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I was gonna marry them. I think if we're talking
about the same couple, weprobably are because we love
this couple, but they wereliving together, sleeping
together, and I met with him andhe said, I'd love for you to do
my wedding. And I said, Well,here's how I can do your
wedding, is you need to moveout.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
And you need a period of celibacy. I know you're a
Christ follower because you'vebeen baptized at Keystone, you
found Jesus at Keystone, but youneed to cut off that. And then
if you have a period of fidelitywith the Lord, I could stand
with you at your altar and let'sget your sex on the right side
of your marriage. Yeah. And hetold me later he walked away
(23:46):
really mad at me.
Like he was ticked. But I had abuddy with me pastor who loves
him and he loves him, so hecouldn't do anything because I
was there, it was 2v1. No, I'mjust kidding. I can handle up on
my business.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
But anyway,
Speaker 1 (24:02):
no, the truth is though, he loves me, I love him,
and, he did walk away ticked.But then the Lord got ahold of
his heart. He moved out. Todaythey're married, they've got two
kids, and he says to me, hesays, Brandon, thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, wow. And I
Speaker 1 (24:16):
told him this, didn't just say move out because that's
what God wants. I said, Buddy,listen to me, she needs to know.
First of all, it's God's design.But let me show you how God's
design works. She needs to knowthat it's not just about sex.
She needs to know that if shehas chronic pain, that you have
self control, and you're okay.She needs to know you love her
(24:36):
and not just her body. She, andthere needs to be a reordering
of something spiritual in yourmarriage that really reassures.
And so that's been powerful.Let's let's So good.
Let's talk about some, for allfamilies Yeah. All marriages, if
you're young and you're engagedor you wanna be, here's the way
(24:57):
you need to enter into it. Let'sgo positive. And I wanna talk
about before you ever hit thebedroom. Sex starts before you
ever get to the bedroom.
Yeah. And for some, that may bea head scratcher comment, but
why don't you tell us what thatmeans?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Well, I mean, sex starts. Again, sex meaning if
you want sex God's way, if youwant the intimacy that it
involves, I mean, it begins farbeyond the bedroom. I would say
it begins in the in the spacesin your heart, honestly. And
then you hear the phrase sexstarts in the kitchen, and I
love that. It's like, okay,guys, get in there and help do
those dishes and you're gonnawarm her heart.
You know, that's one example of-
Speaker 1 (25:34):
My dad. Yeah. It's just so uncomfortable. And
again, I know this is gonna makepeople uncomfortable when we
talk about this. But he wouldtalk about, he went, again, at
one of those men's events, hewould tell the guys, Guys, I'd
sleep the floor.
I'd sweep the floor. Let me justsay, it always worked out for
me. Yeah. And I'm in the cornerheaving and dry heaving, But all
(25:58):
the guys really appreciated thisman of God saying, hey. Sweep
the floor.
Sweep the floor, bro.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Love your wife, help, be a helper.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right. But I think, you know, before you can talk
about what it looks like in yourmarriage, you've gotta
understand what the design is.And there's several places in
scripture that help us. And oneis Malachi. I think it's chapter
two.
I think that I'd have to lookand see. I need to Google it.
But Malachi chapter two, he'stalking about marriage, and he's
actually talking about thetragedy of divorce. But the
(26:27):
purpose, one of the purpose ofmarriage is to have children and
to have a a heritage of childrenwho will grow up to also love
Jesus and love the things ofGod. And so honestly,
procreation is a part of thegoal.
But then if you read the book ofSong of Solomon and so many
other scriptures, Song ofSolomon is an entire book on the
pleasures of sex between ahusband and a wife. And so when
(26:50):
you understand the design thatit's for those pleasures, but
it's also for the purpose offamilies growing, It helps you
know, okay, this is why. Andthen I always tell couples sex
is an act of worship.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And you're either worshiping yourself or you're
worshiping the person thatyou're having sex with.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Both wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Both wrong. Or you're worshiping the God who gave the
great gift. And of course, manya, you know, client in my
offices looked at me and said,so are we supposed to be singing
and worshiping while
Speaker 1 (27:22):
we're That's deep waters.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
They are and it's intentional. I want it to be
hard at first for them to evenknow what she's saying. Because
then you have to understand thedefinition of worship, that in
all that I do, I wanna honorGod. And so even when it comes
to sex, I wanna go in with aposture of thank you, Lord, and
I wanna do this your way. Andjust by obeying God's way is an
act of worship, and I'll giveyou an example.
(27:45):
So it's not it's not always amale, female. You know, males
and females have differentpatterns of struggle, but it's
not always absolute. But therecan be many, I think there are
more so cases where a wife has aless desire for sex the amount
of times than a husband hasdesire for sex amount of times,
(28:06):
like per week or I think that's
Speaker 1 (28:07):
still true but it's not
Speaker 2 (28:09):
It's not an absolute. Yeah, and typically I would say
even just in my limited purview,it's been the majority of men
who've desired more than women.And I've had a few cases where
the woman was coming in veryfrustrated because the husband
was not aroused by her. And soit isn't an absolute, but there
is some leaning. And so when itcomes to understanding that, if
(28:30):
a person is genuinely wanting tounderstand and wanting to follow
God, then there is a deep divethat has to happen with the with
God himself and with his word.
Or we default to just what Iwant and what I feel, and it's a
very selfish approach tomarriage. Well, you know what? I
don't want to tonight, so we'renot going to tonight. Rather
(28:52):
exploring and saying, okay, it'snot always about what I feel in
this moment. I've told many aperson, and again, often women,
but many a person, just becauseyou may not feel it that one
night, faith it.
It's not about fake it, f a k e.No. Faith it. Believe God that,
you know what? As I honor theLord with his design for sex and
(29:14):
marriage, and as I love myhusband in this case, as I love
him, right, as the woman withher man, I am honoring God.
And I'm telling you, so oftenyou'll be surprised that God
blesses that moment of intimacy.And as you got over the hurdle
of your own emotions or whateverthe barriers were, but it's for
a bigger purpose. It's for, I'mgonna honor God. I'm gonna
(29:36):
worship him. It's faith overwhat I feel.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Wow. That's so good. And, you know, when it comes to
that, there is God's design. Iwanna read it, one Corinthians
chapter seven. The husbandshould fulfill his wife's sexual
needs.
Okay, that's hot off the gateright there.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Bible.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
So the apostle Paul decided to go to the men first.
The husband should fulfill hiswife's sexual needs. There's a
lot of guys, they're notthinking at all about their
wife's sexual needs.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
That they might be different.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
And the sexual needs, like we said, begins before the
bedroom. How am I talking toyou?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Right? I mean, I've made the mistake where I've been
harsh and then, but I can turnon a dime. You are more like us,
a 18 wheeler, we gotta turnslowly, you know?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And you know, like, but I can just, man, zero turn,
you know? Seriously, and it'strue though, right? They always
say, you know, men are
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Women are microwave. Yeah, yeah. I like your 18
Wheeler. What are you like aMaserati?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I'm a zero turn mower. Oh. You know, that is I
can turn. Anyway, but the powerhere is that, A, the Bible is
recognizing that women havesexual needs.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And it often begins with affection. It's sex and
romance. Yeah. And sometimes,again, not an absolute, as a man
will, and this is, again, not anabsolute, but often, as men
desire sex, women desireaffection.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Now men desire affection too, and women desire
sex, So you it's not anabsolute. Right. But I have,
just seen the power in my ownlife of tone, of my words, if we
get in an argument, you know,just how to off ramp from that,
how to resolve quickly, how tobe sweet, how to cuddle, how to
(31:44):
hold hands, how to be generouswith words, all that's happening
before. And then it says thewife should fulfill her
husband's needs. The wife givesauthority over her body to her
husband.
The husband gives authority overhis body to his wife. Do not
deprive each other of sexualrelations unless you both agree
(32:05):
to refrain from sexual intimacyfor a limited time. So you can
give yourselves more completelyto prayer and afterward, come
together again so Satan won't beable to tempt you because of
your lack of self control. I saythis as a concession, not a
command, but I wish everyonewere single just as I am.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah. So he's saying, if you wanna just be single,
that's a concession, not acommand. But, you know, as you
said, talked about the husband'ssexual needs. Right? You talked
about the wife's needs ofaffection and and and and it
again, it can like you said, wesaid a million times now, it can
be husband or wife.
But often a wife, you know, isthe the prior examples. But
(32:45):
husband's sexual needs. Okay. Soit brought to my mind something
that you and I heard from apreacher we enjoyed. I believe
it was pastor Kim Witcher.
We were at a conference. Andokay, so I often said, as a rule
of thumb, wives listen up andhusbands too.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
And by the way, we'll do a whole podcast on women in
ministry, men, women pastors
Speaker 2 (33:07):
all Yeah, for sure. As a general rule, I would tell
couples, hey, If you are goinglonger than seven days without
having sexual sexual connectionwith each other, flags should go
up. Just of awareness. Hey.We're going too long here.
We need to we need to cometogether. And would throw that
out as, hey, that's a marker of,you know, a blinking red light.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Seven days.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Seven days. So then I hear her share, she had done
deep research, biologicalresearch, and I would bitter it
to try to repeat it, but I cantell you the things that I
remember clearly. She did a deepphysiological study on male,
female, just the way God createdour biology, our anatomy. And
(33:49):
every three days, this is what Iremember, the male anatomy
resets from the last time thatsexual intercourse happens.
There's a reset that happens,and I'll let you fill in the
blanks.
I need to get her research oneday. But it was a three day
physical process, purelyphysical. And so after that
three days, if there had notbeen sexual activity in those
(34:10):
three days, there's a heighteneddesire. And the whole point is
that she made,
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Somebody send her a box of chocolates.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Okay. I'm just saying, God should
Speaker 1 (34:24):
She be just made the Christmas
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Pastor Sheila Gerald would say, you know, close the
gap every night. Yeah. So Idon't know who wins that race,
but nonetheless, I think boththese wonderful women are
seeking God's design inmarriage. And the reality about
the physiological piece for meis that's created by God. That
was created by God and how youas a man are wired, and that's
(34:51):
different than how I have beenwired.
And rather than look at that andbe like, well, that's not me, or
resent that, or dismiss that, asa wife, but even more as a
follower of Jesus, I'm like,okay, God, your design always
leads to the best life. Yourdesign always leads to
abundance. And I'm so thankfulthat you, as my husband, would
(35:12):
choose me to be the person thatyou have that intimacy with,
that you have that desire andthat drive. I think wives, if
you can get to the place whererather than look at your
husband, some of, I mean, of thewives I've seen and the broken
marriages I've seen, there's acontempt there. There's even a
disgust with some of the wivesthat I have witnessed.
And there's always a lot ofother things involved. But
(35:33):
rather than allow that lie, Ibelieve it's a lie from the
enemy, to permeate our hearts,we're able to see God's
beautiful design and be thankfulthat we have a spouse, a
husband, who would want us to bethat person in their life.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
So like a real practical way this could play
out, and I wanna say what it'snot, and then we'll say what it
could What look it's not is aman demanding sex out of a sense
of Christian obedience. That nota fulfillment of one Corinthians
seven. One Corinthians startswith the man being sensitive to
(36:08):
his wife's sexual needs andfulfilling them. But also, we
see elsewhere in the Bible, livein a considerate way. You gotta
live in a mindful way.
We are called to be leaders.We're to die. You know, have the
heart of Christ, the ethic ofChrist who died for the bride.
We are to have a spirit of deathfor the bride, death of our own
(36:28):
agendas. So this objectifyingyour wife in the bedroom is
possible.
Wow. Lust inside marriage ispossible where she is no longer
your wife, your bride, yourbeauty, she is an object of your
fulfillment. Wow. That is messedup. And we cannot be that way,
men.
We cannot be that way. We've gotto be give first. And so the way
(36:51):
that that looks like is, andI'll just be very transparent,
where for me, one of the waysthat I thread that needle is if
you it's clear you're not up toit, you're tired, you know,
something like that. And I kindamake a move or and that's always
the hardest part is like, okay,how do I let them know I'm
(37:13):
interested but not feelpressure? That's always one of
those things.
But if I'm kinda sending mysignals and that kinda thing,
and I could tell you're tired,you're willing because of what
you just said, you wanna loveme, you wanna faith me. One of
the ways that the Lord showed meis for me to just, Baby, I'm
fine, I'm good, I'm good, andsmile, maybe kiss her on the
(37:37):
forehead. Just let her know,You're fine. You know, Hey,
let's let you get some rest, youknow? And that would be an
example of me trying to live inan understanding way, of me
going, even if I really wantedit, my body, you know, was like
wanting you, you know, whatever.
Is that too much to you?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
No, I think this is important because I think we're
not the only ones. And I thinkfor me in certain situations,
when maybe I am feeling tired orI am feeling like sometimes I
don't feel well at late atnight, like that's true, that
there are times when I'm in thatspace or maybe I'm just not
thinking about it, that I inthose moments say, you know
what? It's not about just me.It's not about what I just feel.
(38:15):
I love this man and I love theGod who gave us this gift of
marriage, and I'm not going tofollow what I feel in this
moment.
Again, it goes back to how Itruly believe for all of you,
all of us who will operate inthat space, we will find
ourselves experiencing apleasure and a connection even
if we started out maybe notbeing in the mood. And I think,
(38:38):
when you talk about living in anunderstanding way as a husband
to a wife, I think living in anunderstanding way of a wife to a
husband is understanding thethings we've just talked about,
that physiologically even you'vebeen created and made
differently. And one of the waysto love you is to bless you, to
fulfill those needs. And again,both of us knowing that
ultimately God fulfills ourneeds, but he often uses people.
(39:01):
And in marriage, he uses thespouse to fulfill so many needs,
not just sexual, but so manybeautiful needs are met through
a spouse.
And ultimately that works wellwhen we understand God is
ultimately the one meeting theneed through that person. But I
think a core thing I would sayon both sides of this coin is am
(39:22):
I going to be selfless in mymarriage or am I going to be
selfish? Because in the same wayyou talked about, you know, a
man is not supposed to demand itfrom his wife. And I love that
scripture because in both cases,I'm responsible for my behavior,
not yours. I'm responsible tomeet the needs of my husband.
You're responsible to meet theneeds of the wife. I am not
(39:43):
responsible to force you to meetmy needs, right? But in both of
those cases, I'm responsible formy own. But when it comes to the
wife, you know, it's theopposite. It can be the opposite
side of that coin where it's notabout demanding you to have more
sex, but demanding you to backoff.
Demanding that, you know what?No. We're not doing that
(40:05):
tonight. It's a culture of no.It's a culture of on my own
terms.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Culture of no.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
And God forbid that be a part of any marriage, that
we don't that we beginWithholding. We begin to
operate, you know, like just inselfishness. I've seen so many
marriages destroyed by thewithholding of sex in a
marriage. And again, that can bemen or women, but often that is
the the weapon of choice forwomen in marriage is to withhold
(40:33):
sex either because I'm angry,resentful, mad, disappointed, or
because I'm lazy in my marriage.And I just think it's not that
big of a deal to me, itshouldn't be a big deal to you.
And that is a direct slap in theface of a God who says, guess
what? Neither of you createdthis. I'm the one who created
this. I have a design. I have aplan.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
So good. You know, it's complicated. This is a
complicated area.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
We need part two, three, four,
Speaker 1 (40:57):
five. Know, there's so much more. You know, in the
book Song of Songs, some peoplehave tried to interpret that as
nonsexual. It is a lot of sex inthe book of Song of Solomon.
Song of Songs, Song of Solomon,same book, named different ways
by different people.
But in that book, it talks aboutthe generosity of sex. It talks
(41:19):
about the protection of sex. Ittalks about the visual
generosity of sex, and what Iwould say there is just, man,
work with what you got, youknow? Give each other the gifts
that you have to give to oneanother and stretch yourself,
push yourself to love oneanother. And men are very
visual, and that's an area whereno man should ever demand.
(41:43):
And I would also be watch outfor this men. I wanna speak to
the men. Be careful that you'renot taking something that you've
seen in pornography and tryingto impose it into your bedroom.
The pornification of Christianmarriage is brutal. That's lust
inside of marriage where you'retrying to, inside Christian
marriage, copy something thatyou wrongly saw.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
And that's broken and that's messed up. I'm not saying
that, but what I am saying isenjoy one another. Yeah. You
know, this should be a place ofjoy. Yeah.
And so to the young generationthat's watching, what I think is
so important for you to hear is,yes, you are to wait until
you're married to have sex, buton the other side of that, there
(42:29):
is great joy. Yeah. It can behealthy. And for the, I've said
this for years, our culture sayswhen you're single, it's go, go,
go, let's go, let's go, lots ofsex, lots of sex, lots of sex,
which is a lie too. And thenonce you get married, it's, I'm
tired, no, no, no.
But the Bible, it's actuallyexactly the opposite. It's when
(42:52):
you're single, it's no, no, no.But once you get married, it's
go, go, go. And let's explore ittogether. And if you're of the
lie, another lie, if you're ofthe lie that would say, well, to
try this out.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Before we get married.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Before we get married. We need to explore this
out. I'd say you're robbingyourself of mutual exploration,
mutual discovery. This is not ajourney between you and your
expectation of sex, because whatcreated that expectation?
Hollywood, books you've read,movies you've seen, wrong things
you've seen, broken thingsyou've seen.
(43:31):
Those are bad expressions. Youneed to be able to express this
just between you two.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
This is yours and it needs to be yours. And so that's
what you have to look forward towithout embarrassment, without
shame, without comparison. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
And this is an ongoing conversation and we will
repeat things we've said and wewill say new things because this
topic's not going away. But wewould just close out by telling
you that this is also an areathat brings a lot of shame and a
lot of hurt because of mistakesthat many of us have made in our
lives. And again, that prayer weprayed earlier, that applies to
every last one of you and everylast one of us that God is the
(44:09):
God who restores as we run tohim with all of our broken
places, with all of our needs.Maybe right now you're in a
marriage that is on the brinkand sexual disconnect is
definitely a part of what you'reliving in day in and day out,
and you don't even know how tobreak the cycle of that
disconnect. Jesus is the one whocan break the cycles.
(44:29):
Jesus is the one who can bringhealing and help us follow his
amazing way. So we just wannaencourage you today. We
appreciate your time andlistening in, and we pray that
God just keeps blessing youthrough the overflow.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Thanks again for tuning into the overflow, and
we'll see you next time. We loveyou.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the overflow with
Brandon and Susan.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
And we are so excited to talk about today, an area in
relationships. Yeah. You know,we have these big broad
categories, and today we're inthe category of relationships.
We're gonna talk a lot aboutrelationships. Yes.
But specifically, we wannatackle a tough issue to talk
(00:25):
about. Yeah. It's the mostintimate of all areas in a
relationship. It is everywherein our culture. Yeah.
And we're gonna talk about ittoday. We're gonna talk about
sex and romance.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah. Sex and romance. And when you said that
we're so excited to talk aboutit, it made me laugh because
it's we're excited.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We are, I know, we are excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
But it's an exciting topic.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
We're passionate.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yes, we are, we're passionate.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Okay, why are you excited? And I'll tell why I'm
excited.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Okay, I'm excited for multiple reasons. I think this
is an area that impactseveryone. We were made as sexual
beings. We were made for peoplewho desire to feel loved and to
encounter love in a romanticway. There's just something
inside of us.
And some people have the gift ofsingleness. In my experience,
(01:27):
that's a rare gift. And by gift,I don't mean that just that
you're single. I mean that youwant to be single. That's the
rare gift.
And so with that said, becauseback to our worldview, we
understand from the bible thatwe are are broken because of sin
apart from the restoration ofJesus and his holy spirit at
work within us, that this isanother one of those areas where
(01:50):
if we just allow it to default,then it'll destroy.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Totally agree. Default is the worst position to
be in on this topic. Here's whyI am excited. I'm excited
because of the lies that arebeing told in our culture.
Because there is a current.
You know, I'm I'm a I love tofish, and I'll bass fish and I
love bass fishing from a boat. Ikinda don't wanna bass fish if
(02:16):
I'm not in a boat. I mean, I'lldo it from the from the shore,
but I really wanna be in a boat.Yeah. And but when I fly fish, I
don't wanna be in a boat.
I wanna wade into the water. Andone of the things you learn when
you're a fly fisherman is you'vegotta be able to read the water
because ignorantly, you couldthink that the current is not
(02:37):
that strong and then you'reheaded out to go retrieve a fly
or get your line out of sometrees or whatever, and all of
sudden you're like, what have Idone? I'm in the middle of a
current. I feel I'm on slipperyrocks underwater, and I feel the
current taking my legs out fromunder me. And I think that
that's our posture towardsexuality and our culture.
(02:57):
There is a very strong currentthat is sweeping the great
majority of peoplephilosophically regarding what
it teaches about sex. And sadly,the church has largely been
silent other than don't have sexbefore marriage, which is a
great message, but it'sinsufficient. It's not enough.
(03:20):
And so this is our contributionto talk about to the young
generation, more than just waittill marriage. Here's what's on
the other side of marriage thatyou're waiting for.
And then, number two, to maybeeven a larger audience, here's
what it looks like for it to behealthy.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah. So good.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
There's a lot of unhealthy sexuality in
relationships right now inmarriages. Let's talk about
that.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah. So what I heard you saying is you're excited to
combat the lies Yes. Am. Of theenemy and to show God's great
design that so many of us missif we're not looking for it. So,
yeah, I mean, this is obviouslysuch a sensitive topic.
I mean, even as we sit here andtalk about it, this is private.
This is a personal topic.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's our private.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah. It's our private topic. It's our personal
life. It's, know, you if you'remarried, it's your
Speaker 1 (04:10):
personal We don't even enjoy.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah. It's not like we wanna talk about I mean, we
do enjoy.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Oh, wait. We enjoy. We enjoy.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay. We enjoy. Too far, I set myself up for that
one.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, took me by his right. Usually I'm the one who
would Well, just go
Speaker 2 (04:25):
sounded like, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But you know, we don't enjoy like talking about
it in a sense that this is avery private area even for us.
Yeah. But I so much more aminvested in
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, conquering the and it's because, I mean,
firsthand we have witnessedpeople we love deeply. I know in
my own life, my journey beforeJesus got ahold of my heart, and
so many people that we see inour church that I've counseled,
wonderful people that havestepped into my office. There is
(04:57):
a thread, back to that pattern,of sexuality outside God's
design brings so much pain.Yeah. So much heartache, so
much, and it's crazy.
It's not limited to one type.Right. Or one specific area of
sexual brokenness. It's all ofit. It's like, it's either God's
way or bust.
(05:17):
And so, you know, a lot of timeseven in our culture, people like
to highlight certaindemographics, if you will, of
sexual brokenness like
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Oh yeah, at least I'm not, hey, I may be having sex
with my girlfriend, but at leastI'm not same sex attracted.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Right, at least I'm not same sex having same sex, At
you least I'm not doing that.And we compartmentalize when all
of it is not God's best for us.And God has a beautiful design
and he wants us all to be onthat beautiful And
understanding, I think, I thinkmaybe let's kick something off
here. The concept that sex is agift, not a right.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
This is earth shattering. Yeah. Okay? And sex
is a gift, not a right. Probablythat is the bedrock lie in our
culture that has led to so muchdysfunction that sex is a right.
I feel something, who are you totell me I shouldn't
Speaker 2 (06:17):
act
Speaker 1 (06:18):
on that feeling? Who are you to tell me that the way
I love, what's the big phrase,love is love? The way I love,
who are you to tell me that Ican't love the way I wanna love?
That all goes back to thebedrock of sex is a
Speaker 2 (06:33):
right. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
People march to proclaim the way I feel like I
wanna have love is my right. Sexis a right.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah. It's checked out. Where the reality
is, once again, James chapterone, every good and perfect
gift, every good and perfectthing is a gift from God. It's a
gift.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Father of lights.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes. He is the father of lights. He's the father of
creating sex. And so it's sopowerful and I think we just get
confused about it and we get itwrong. And it made me think of
it early, early in our marriage.
I don't know, tell me if youremember this. We were early in
and there was just this onetime, because sex is a journey
for every
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I remember every single time,
Speaker 2 (07:16):
so Okay, go Not talking about
Speaker 1 (07:19):
the times. Every single
Speaker 2 (07:23):
No, no, but we're threading the needle here
people, so hang with us. But yousaid to me, and it was regarding
this topic in our marriage, justof sex in general, right?
Because that's supposed to be,it is a part of a healthy
marriage. And you said, youknow, do you realize the power
that you have over me? Do youremember this?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I do. I do remember that.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And it was a moment where the Lord
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Very vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah. And the Lord corrected.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Corrected us both.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Corrected us both.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I'll tell you how it corrected me after we really
processed that. It shouldn'thave power over me like that.
It's true. That is a very stronginfluence in a marriage. It is
a, it can be a weapon in amarriage.
But this is something maybewe'll dive into a little more in
a second when we fully developthis. But big idea. When sex is
(08:19):
a gift and not a right, then howcould you ever be, now let me
say it negatively. Let me say itthe other way. If sex is a right
and not a gift, how could youever be happy if you're not
having sex?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
But the Christ follower, here's where I wanna
aim you toward. This is I'vetalked to a lot of men about
this. Yeah. I remember being atone of our men's conferences,
and it was actually a getawaywhere we were at a retreat
center. And we brought in awonderful colleague and biblical
counselor, and he said, guys,you can have a life if your wife
(08:55):
is depriving you from sex.
And that was just like, okay, Iwanna hear more. Not that you
had been, because you hadn't,but just the truth of that.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And he began to unpack how, hey, that's broken,
it's not right, there'sinjustice there, there's pain
there, we could talk about that.But are you going to allow your
happiness, and truly yourhappiness, okay, to be measured
there? Some people have chronicpain. Are you just doomed not to
(09:27):
be happy because you havechronic pain? Wow.
Are you doomed to never be happyor have joy in the Lord? And his
thing was, man, find your joy inthe Lord. Yeah. And even when
this relationship is broken andit's not functioning correctly,
even dysfunctionally, find yourjoy in the Lord. What a truth.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, so powerful. And I remember the day that you
said that to me.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And if you can unpack that a little better than me,
please do. Oh yeah. Like I'mkind of bouncing around with
you.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
No, would tag team for sure. And I'm processing as
we're even talking. But Iremembered when that moment when
you said that and I instantlyfelt a weight I wasn't capable
of carrying.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And
Speaker 2 (10:04):
that began the conversation that I cannot have
that kind of power in your life.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Because what happens when I disappoint you? What
happens if it's not the way orthe perfect time or whatever
that might be, fill in theblank. And that can't just be
about sex, that can be about alot of things when it comes to
marriage. If instead
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Communication, gift giving,
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, compliments, all the things, how we all fall
short. Parenting. Parenting,yeah. And if I or of you, if I
carry the kind of weight in mylife where your happiness is
dependent on me, that I havepower over you, those are
frightening words. Those arescary.
You're a danger zone kind ofword. So that was one thing. And
(10:46):
we talked through that. It wasvery, very powerful. Those
things you shared with me longago when you heard that
commentary about, you know, ifyou are in a marriage, which
we'll talk about
Speaker 1 (10:55):
in No a pastor, it was Jeremy Lullock.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Was it really?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
It was Jeremy Lullock.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, okay, one of our dear colleagues, wonderful
counselor, Jeremy Lellick, heleads Metroplex counseling. But
yeah, what a great phrase thateven in those situations, we
have a greater God who is allpowerful over our life. And so
that's the first thing is Ithink anytime we place another
(11:19):
person, and you are trying to dothis, but in a position that
only God can be in.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, didn't understand that's what I was
doing.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
The weight of it. Yeah, you had no idea the weight
of that, but words matter. Youand I both. Mean, this is one of
our big beliefs. Words matter,and underneath the words,
there's beliefs.
And so I think one of the thingsthat I still learned, but I
learned in that moment, is notto take on the weight that you
were shifting. Instead, weworked through that. But also to
(11:47):
acknowledge, hey, the bible'strue. And sex is a powerful
gift. It's not just a gift.
It's a powerful gift, and it'spart of the inner woven elements
to God's design in a marriage.There
Speaker 1 (12:02):
is a special power in sexuality. You just said it. It
is a powerful gift. Yeah. And Iwanna dip into your experience
as a counselor for a moment.
When you, you come across a lotof different things. You come
across marriage, lack ofcommunication, bad conflict
resolution, but when it comes tosexual struggles, okay, as a
(12:30):
counselor, would you say thatthat's a harder ball of yarn to
untangle? Would you say thatsexual trauma in your past is
different than physical trauma?I mean, help just help me
understand.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah. Absolutely. I would say that when it comes to
sex, sexual sin, sexualbrokenness, certainly sexual
abuse, that imagine, as you weresaying that, I just imagined
like a really glassy, smooth,clear lake. And then you take
this big rock and you throw itin the in the water. Well, yes,
you see the big splash of theincident, but then you watch the
(13:06):
ripples that keep going on thewater.
And I believe that sometimeswhat happens to our soul, to our
mind, to our well-being, and wedon't even understand because it
the ripples come in manydifferent forms and many
different packaging. They're notall they don't all look the
same, although there arepatterns. I would love to export
to share talk about that. Butjust the pain. Mhmm.
Something was broken. Somethingwas lost. Maybe it's feeling.
(13:31):
Maybe it's feeling numb. Maybeno longer being able to enjoy
something God's way because ofthe numbness that was left there
by the pain.
Maybe it's anger that rage is sodeep that other relationships
are being impacted and there'snot an ability for closeness
with other people. The breakingof trust. I mean, you could go
on and on and on.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Or your first experiences were broken
experiences. Yeah. And they, itmakes it very difficult for you
to have normal experiences.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Oh, for sure. Even things that can impact our
brain. Yep. Physiologically,biologically, first experiences
that we have, it's almost likeit imprints on us. So if
someone, and I've got a casestudy right now, thinking of a,
this is a long, long time ago,and there was an individual who
was struggling with attractionto six year old boys.
(14:17):
And this person was younghimself, but old enough to not
be at all in that, I mean, thatspace. Well, he had been
sexually abused.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Mhmm.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And so as we began to unpack the reality of how just
Speaker 1 (14:32):
because Thank God he sought help.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Thank God he sought help.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Just because you feel these feelings, let's unpack why
you feel these feelings. Andwhen he understood that our
bodies are created to enjoy sexand experience sex, by God. And
so when our first experience inany way, shape, or form of the
pleasure, even just physically,happens to us, we can easily
(14:58):
associate it with whatever thatexperience was about. And so
even in something as terriblefor him as being sexually
abused, that sexual abuse forhim and for most people, you
can't divorce the fact that yourbody's involved and was created
to enjoy. And so it's very forthose who have been abused.
I mean, I just wanna say Godsees you, loves you, and heals
(15:18):
you as you run to him. But thatcan cause so much shame and
confusion because why did Ienjoy it? It must have been my
fault. It must have been, Ibrought this on myself. And no,
the truth is God created yourbody to enjoy sex, but it was
created for a very specificenvironment of marriage with the
opposite sex in the covenant ofmarriage.
(15:39):
And so when that's abused,there's confusion. And if not
healed correctly, all hurt andall pain and all wounds, if not
healed correctly, leads to morebrokenness. Yeah. Which is what
that young man was potentiallyon the path toward until he
began to seek the Lord.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, and I would just like to take this moment to
just say that if you have ex Imean, we just opened the door a
heavy topic, and it just wentthere. And we don't wanna avoid
that because this is real. Andif you are someone that has
experienced that kind ofbrokenness and you carry shame
(16:15):
or confusion, or just hearingabout that just puts a weight on
you, I want you to know, man, Ijust would love to pray for you
right now and just to have amoment. I feel led by the Lord.
For anyone listening to this,that just hit them hard, to just
have a moment.
And so Susan, could you pray forus? You know, just, I think you,
(16:39):
you've walked with so manywho've had that pain.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Whether it was from a family member or someone they
knew or whatever. Yeah. Couldyou just pray for that person?
Just look at them right now andjust pray for them.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Love to do that. Oh God, we come to you right now,
we bring every part of ourbrokenness and we lay it at the
foot of your cross, Lord. And Ithank you that you tell us we
can boldly come into your throneroom, Father, with our needs and
our pain. And God, pray for theperson listening right now who
maybe sexual abuse is part oftheir story and somewhere they
were hurt deeply by this sin orby this someone doing this to
(17:14):
them, God, and even just someoneright now, just sexual
discussion in general is such aplace of pain. God, I am asking
that you would heal them in thismoment, that God, as they put
their faith and trust in you,Jesus, that this would be
another seed in the ground oftheir life to plant healing.
You are Jehovah Rapha, the Godwho heals us. And I pray that
(17:36):
this man or this womanlistening, this student,
whoever's listening to the soundof our voices right now, that
God, they would place their handin yours and trust you with the
path towards healing andwholeness. There is nothing that
you are not able to overcome.There is nothing that you cannot
repair and restore. And so God,what happened in the past, God,
(17:57):
it does not define us becauseyou, oh God, define who we are
and we thank you.
So I just pray for that miraclein the name of Jesus over
someone's life, amen.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, it's heavy.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
It is heavy. And we believe in the power of prayer.
We believe in God using this foras many times as it's watched
over and over and forwarded toothers and sent to others. We
believe that moment may reallybe a breakthrough for somebody.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
It really may be and since we're on this particular
aspect Let's
Speaker 1 (18:25):
not say maybe, let's say it will be.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Did I say maybe?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, it really may be.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Oh, it will.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
It will be.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
That's right, declare it.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Come on.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Oh, it will be, thank you, words matter.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Words matter.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Words matter, so good. And while we're on this
topic, I just, you know, this issomething you and I've talked
much about and it's somethingI've seen, again, a pattern over
and over, is when it comes toprecious people, maybe person
you're listening right now toour conversation that have same
sex attraction, that often, notalways, but often there's very
(19:00):
specific patterns that you cantrace back to their past. Mhmm.
And I'll give a couple of thosepatterns. One might be the
pattern of sexual abuse.
That is a big one. If you lookstatistically at people who have
same sex attraction or in samesex relationships, often,
somewhere, there's a history ofabuse. It could have been a
(19:20):
coach, could have been a choirdirector, it could have been a,
sadly, someone in the church. Itcould have been so many
different figures in their life.God bless.
An older teen, you know, to ayounger boy or a girl. These are
just realities that I have seenand encountered, and I know that
(19:40):
I'm not the only one. And thatthose things, again, like I said
before, it's like an imprints onyou. And that's your first
experience or significantsignificant experience, and your
body keeps score of that, hasgone through that. And if not
healed correctly, you assume,that's I'm gay too.
I'm gay. And I I also think thesecond pattern I've seen is
(20:03):
maybe not an abuse. It could betwo people who both are willing,
someone who is curious, someonewho even alcohol is introduced
or there's a substanceintroduced and not always
though. And if your first orearly experiences, you're having
those same sex experiences, itcan again cause your brain and
(20:25):
cause your body and cause yourmind to latch on and go, well, I
must be gay. And so then youbegin to step, take the next
step and live that life outrather than saying, God, what's
your plan for me?
God, heal the areas of my lifeto be in with, you know,
accordance to your will andplan.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
The power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that
we all have broken areas of ourlife. We all have areas that we
say, okay, What I want does notalign with what God says. Yeah.
And you have a choice. You know?
Do you, do you allow God toshape you, or do you try to
(21:03):
shape God to you?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
That again.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Do you allow God to shape you? And specifically, do
you allow God's word to shapeyou, or are you trying to shape
and reshape God's word for you.And, there've been attempts, and
we could do a whole podcast onon same sex sex attraction.
Yeah. Maybe we should.
(21:25):
But there've been attempts, andreally deal with this, there've
been attempts to biblically showhow it's okay. And it's weak,
it's bad scholarship, it's just,it's bankrupt of integrity and a
true reading of the word of God.It's just, it's frankly absurd.
(21:46):
But with that said, our tone andour posture, this is where the
local church is so powerful.We're not just speaking to you
right now.
We have a church. Yeah. And it'sreal. And we deal with people
every week.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And it has been our honor to walk with people who
have trusted God even when theydidn't feel it.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
It has been our honor, and it will continue to
be our honor, when somebodysays, I feel same sex
attraction, but I am trustingGod's way. I believe the rewards
you will receive for obeying Godand trusting him with your
affections is substantial. And Ibelieve God will give you a
(22:35):
grace. And God will give you areward. And we've seen that
happen
Speaker 2 (22:39):
We at
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Keystone
Speaker 2 (22:41):
have. And that's why I think you said it earlier.
It's not limited to a specific,or maybe we both did, a specific
type of sexual brokenness. Thereis a whole cafeteria style,
different options of how webreak bad when it comes to God's
gift of sex. And we've seen thatplay out in a couple that were
living together and sleepingtogether before marriage, but
(23:03):
really did wanna begin to followGod, and that was hard.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I was gonna marry them. I think if we're talking
about the same couple, weprobably are because we love
this couple, but they wereliving together, sleeping
together, and I met with him andhe said, I'd love for you to do
my wedding. And I said, Well,here's how I can do your
wedding, is you need to moveout.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
And you need a period of celibacy. I know you're a
Christ follower because you'vebeen baptized at Keystone, you
found Jesus at Keystone, but youneed to cut off that. And then
if you have a period of fidelitywith the Lord, I could stand
with you at your altar and let'sget your sex on the right side
of your marriage. Yeah. And hetold me later he walked away
(23:46):
really mad at me.
Like he was ticked. But I had abuddy with me pastor who loves
him and he loves him, so hecouldn't do anything because I
was there, it was 2v1. No, I'mjust kidding. I can handle up on
my business.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
But anyway,
Speaker 1 (24:02):
no, the truth is though, he loves me, I love him,
and, he did walk away ticked.But then the Lord got ahold of
his heart. He moved out. Todaythey're married, they've got two
kids, and he says to me, hesays, Brandon, thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, wow. And I
Speaker 1 (24:16):
told him this, didn't just say move out because that's
what God wants. I said, Buddy,listen to me, she needs to know.
First of all, it's God's design.But let me show you how God's
design works. She needs to knowthat it's not just about sex.
She needs to know that if shehas chronic pain, that you have
self control, and you're okay.She needs to know you love her
(24:36):
and not just her body. She, andthere needs to be a reordering
of something spiritual in yourmarriage that really reassures.
And so that's been powerful.Let's let's So good.
Let's talk about some, for allfamilies Yeah. All marriages, if
you're young and you're engagedor you wanna be, here's the way
(24:57):
you need to enter into it. Let'sgo positive. And I wanna talk
about before you ever hit thebedroom. Sex starts before you
ever get to the bedroom.
Yeah. And for some, that may bea head scratcher comment, but
why don't you tell us what thatmeans?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Well, I mean, sex starts. Again, sex meaning if
you want sex God's way, if youwant the intimacy that it
involves, I mean, it begins farbeyond the bedroom. I would say
it begins in the in the spacesin your heart, honestly. And
then you hear the phrase sexstarts in the kitchen, and I
love that. It's like, okay,guys, get in there and help do
those dishes and you're gonnawarm her heart.
You know, that's one example of-
Speaker 1 (25:34):
My dad. Yeah. It's just so uncomfortable. And
again, I know this is gonna makepeople uncomfortable when we
talk about this. But he wouldtalk about, he went, again, at
one of those men's events, hewould tell the guys, Guys, I'd
sleep the floor.
I'd sweep the floor. Let me justsay, it always worked out for
me. Yeah. And I'm in the cornerheaving and dry heaving, But all
(25:58):
the guys really appreciated thisman of God saying, hey. Sweep
the floor.
Sweep the floor, bro.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Love your wife, help, be a helper.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right. But I think, you know, before you can talk
about what it looks like in yourmarriage, you've gotta
understand what the design is.And there's several places in
scripture that help us. And oneis Malachi. I think it's chapter
two.
I think that I'd have to lookand see. I need to Google it.
But Malachi chapter two, he'stalking about marriage, and he's
actually talking about thetragedy of divorce. But the
(26:27):
purpose, one of the purpose ofmarriage is to have children and
to have a a heritage of childrenwho will grow up to also love
Jesus and love the things ofGod. And so honestly,
procreation is a part of thegoal.
But then if you read the book ofSong of Solomon and so many
other scriptures, Song ofSolomon is an entire book on the
pleasures of sex between ahusband and a wife. And so when
(26:50):
you understand the design thatit's for those pleasures, but
it's also for the purpose offamilies growing, It helps you
know, okay, this is why. Andthen I always tell couples sex
is an act of worship.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And you're either worshiping yourself or you're
worshiping the person thatyou're having sex with.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Both wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Both wrong. Or you're worshiping the God who gave the
great gift. And of course, manya, you know, client in my
offices looked at me and said,so are we supposed to be singing
and worshiping while
Speaker 1 (27:22):
we're That's deep waters.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
They are and it's intentional. I want it to be
hard at first for them to evenknow what she's saying. Because
then you have to understand thedefinition of worship, that in
all that I do, I wanna honorGod. And so even when it comes
to sex, I wanna go in with aposture of thank you, Lord, and
I wanna do this your way. Andjust by obeying God's way is an
act of worship, and I'll giveyou an example.
(27:45):
So it's not it's not always amale, female. You know, males
and females have differentpatterns of struggle, but it's
not always absolute. But therecan be many, I think there are
more so cases where a wife has aless desire for sex the amount
of times than a husband hasdesire for sex amount of times,
(28:06):
like per week or I think that's
Speaker 1 (28:07):
still true but it's not
Speaker 2 (28:09):
It's not an absolute. Yeah, and typically I would say
even just in my limited purview,it's been the majority of men
who've desired more than women.And I've had a few cases where
the woman was coming in veryfrustrated because the husband
was not aroused by her. And soit isn't an absolute, but there
is some leaning. And so when itcomes to understanding that, if
(28:30):
a person is genuinely wanting tounderstand and wanting to follow
God, then there is a deep divethat has to happen with the with
God himself and with his word.
Or we default to just what Iwant and what I feel, and it's a
very selfish approach tomarriage. Well, you know what? I
don't want to tonight, so we'renot going to tonight. Rather
(28:52):
exploring and saying, okay, it'snot always about what I feel in
this moment. I've told many aperson, and again, often women,
but many a person, just becauseyou may not feel it that one
night, faith it.
It's not about fake it, f a k e.No. Faith it. Believe God that,
you know what? As I honor theLord with his design for sex and
(29:14):
marriage, and as I love myhusband in this case, as I love
him, right, as the woman withher man, I am honoring God.
And I'm telling you, so oftenyou'll be surprised that God
blesses that moment of intimacy.And as you got over the hurdle
of your own emotions or whateverthe barriers were, but it's for
a bigger purpose. It's for, I'mgonna honor God. I'm gonna
(29:36):
worship him. It's faith overwhat I feel.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Wow. That's so good. And, you know, when it comes to
that, there is God's design. Iwanna read it, one Corinthians
chapter seven. The husbandshould fulfill his wife's sexual
needs.
Okay, that's hot off the gateright there.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Bible.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
So the apostle Paul decided to go to the men first.
The husband should fulfill hiswife's sexual needs. There's a
lot of guys, they're notthinking at all about their
wife's sexual needs.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
That they might be different.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
And the sexual needs, like we said, begins before the
bedroom. How am I talking toyou?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Right? I mean, I've made the mistake where I've been
harsh and then, but I can turnon a dime. You are more like us,
a 18 wheeler, we gotta turnslowly, you know?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And you know, like, but I can just, man, zero turn,
you know? Seriously, and it'strue though, right? They always
say, you know, men are
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Women are microwave. Yeah, yeah. I like your 18
Wheeler. What are you like aMaserati?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I'm a zero turn mower. Oh. You know, that is I
can turn. Anyway, but the powerhere is that, A, the Bible is
recognizing that women havesexual needs.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And it often begins with affection. It's sex and
romance. Yeah. And sometimes,again, not an absolute, as a man
will, and this is, again, not anabsolute, but often, as men
desire sex, women desireaffection.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Now men desire affection too, and women desire
sex, So you it's not anabsolute. Right. But I have,
just seen the power in my ownlife of tone, of my words, if we
get in an argument, you know,just how to off ramp from that,
how to resolve quickly, how tobe sweet, how to cuddle, how to
(31:44):
hold hands, how to be generouswith words, all that's happening
before. And then it says thewife should fulfill her
husband's needs. The wife givesauthority over her body to her
husband.
The husband gives authority overhis body to his wife. Do not
deprive each other of sexualrelations unless you both agree
(32:05):
to refrain from sexual intimacyfor a limited time. So you can
give yourselves more completelyto prayer and afterward, come
together again so Satan won't beable to tempt you because of
your lack of self control. I saythis as a concession, not a
command, but I wish everyonewere single just as I am.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah. So he's saying, if you wanna just be single,
that's a concession, not acommand. But, you know, as you
said, talked about the husband'ssexual needs. Right? You talked
about the wife's needs ofaffection and and and and it
again, it can like you said, wesaid a million times now, it can
be husband or wife.
But often a wife, you know, isthe the prior examples. But
(32:45):
husband's sexual needs. Okay. Soit brought to my mind something
that you and I heard from apreacher we enjoyed. I believe
it was pastor Kim Witcher.
We were at a conference. Andokay, so I often said, as a rule
of thumb, wives listen up andhusbands too.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
And by the way, we'll do a whole podcast on women in
ministry, men, women pastors
Speaker 2 (33:07):
all Yeah, for sure. As a general rule, I would tell
couples, hey, If you are goinglonger than seven days without
having sexual sexual connectionwith each other, flags should go
up. Just of awareness. Hey.We're going too long here.
We need to we need to cometogether. And would throw that
out as, hey, that's a marker of,you know, a blinking red light.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Seven days.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Seven days. So then I hear her share, she had done
deep research, biologicalresearch, and I would bitter it
to try to repeat it, but I cantell you the things that I
remember clearly. She did a deepphysiological study on male,
female, just the way God createdour biology, our anatomy. And
(33:49):
every three days, this is what Iremember, the male anatomy
resets from the last time thatsexual intercourse happens.
There's a reset that happens,and I'll let you fill in the
blanks.
I need to get her research oneday. But it was a three day
physical process, purelyphysical. And so after that
three days, if there had notbeen sexual activity in those
(34:10):
three days, there's a heighteneddesire. And the whole point is
that she made,
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Somebody send her a box of chocolates.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Okay. I'm just saying, God should
Speaker 1 (34:24):
She be just made the Christmas
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Pastor Sheila Gerald would say, you know, close the
gap every night. Yeah. So Idon't know who wins that race,
but nonetheless, I think boththese wonderful women are
seeking God's design inmarriage. And the reality about
the physiological piece for meis that's created by God. That
was created by God and how youas a man are wired, and that's
(34:51):
different than how I have beenwired.
And rather than look at that andbe like, well, that's not me, or
resent that, or dismiss that, asa wife, but even more as a
follower of Jesus, I'm like,okay, God, your design always
leads to the best life. Yourdesign always leads to
abundance. And I'm so thankfulthat you, as my husband, would
(35:12):
choose me to be the person thatyou have that intimacy with,
that you have that desire andthat drive. I think wives, if
you can get to the place whererather than look at your
husband, some of, I mean, of thewives I've seen and the broken
marriages I've seen, there's acontempt there. There's even a
disgust with some of the wivesthat I have witnessed.
And there's always a lot ofother things involved. But
(35:33):
rather than allow that lie, Ibelieve it's a lie from the
enemy, to permeate our hearts,we're able to see God's
beautiful design and be thankfulthat we have a spouse, a
husband, who would want us to bethat person in their life.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
So like a real practical way this could play
out, and I wanna say what it'snot, and then we'll say what it
could What look it's not is aman demanding sex out of a sense
of Christian obedience. That nota fulfillment of one Corinthians
seven. One Corinthians startswith the man being sensitive to
(36:08):
his wife's sexual needs andfulfilling them. But also, we
see elsewhere in the Bible, livein a considerate way. You gotta
live in a mindful way.
We are called to be leaders.We're to die. You know, have the
heart of Christ, the ethic ofChrist who died for the bride.
We are to have a spirit of deathfor the bride, death of our own
(36:28):
agendas. So this objectifyingyour wife in the bedroom is
possible.
Wow. Lust inside marriage ispossible where she is no longer
your wife, your bride, yourbeauty, she is an object of your
fulfillment. Wow. That is messedup. And we cannot be that way,
men.
We cannot be that way. We've gotto be give first. And so the way
(36:51):
that that looks like is, andI'll just be very transparent,
where for me, one of the waysthat I thread that needle is if
you it's clear you're not up toit, you're tired, you know,
something like that. And I kindamake a move or and that's always
the hardest part is like, okay,how do I let them know I'm
(37:13):
interested but not feelpressure? That's always one of
those things.
But if I'm kinda sending mysignals and that kinda thing,
and I could tell you're tired,you're willing because of what
you just said, you wanna loveme, you wanna faith me. One of
the ways that the Lord showed meis for me to just, Baby, I'm
fine, I'm good, I'm good, andsmile, maybe kiss her on the
(37:37):
forehead. Just let her know,You're fine. You know, Hey,
let's let you get some rest, youknow? And that would be an
example of me trying to live inan understanding way, of me
going, even if I really wantedit, my body, you know, was like
wanting you, you know, whatever.
Is that too much to you?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
No, I think this is important because I think we're
not the only ones. And I thinkfor me in certain situations,
when maybe I am feeling tired orI am feeling like sometimes I
don't feel well at late atnight, like that's true, that
there are times when I'm in thatspace or maybe I'm just not
thinking about it, that I inthose moments say, you know
what? It's not about just me.It's not about what I just feel.
(38:15):
I love this man and I love theGod who gave us this gift of
marriage, and I'm not going tofollow what I feel in this
moment.
Again, it goes back to how Itruly believe for all of you,
all of us who will operate inthat space, we will find
ourselves experiencing apleasure and a connection even
if we started out maybe notbeing in the mood. And I think,
(38:38):
when you talk about living in anunderstanding way as a husband
to a wife, I think living in anunderstanding way of a wife to a
husband is understanding thethings we've just talked about,
that physiologically even you'vebeen created and made
differently. And one of the waysto love you is to bless you, to
fulfill those needs. And again,both of us knowing that
ultimately God fulfills ourneeds, but he often uses people.
(39:01):
And in marriage, he uses thespouse to fulfill so many needs,
not just sexual, but so manybeautiful needs are met through
a spouse.
And ultimately that works wellwhen we understand God is
ultimately the one meeting theneed through that person. But I
think a core thing I would sayon both sides of this coin is am
(39:22):
I going to be selfless in mymarriage or am I going to be
selfish? Because in the same wayyou talked about, you know, a
man is not supposed to demand itfrom his wife. And I love that
scripture because in both cases,I'm responsible for my behavior,
not yours. I'm responsible tomeet the needs of my husband.
You're responsible to meet theneeds of the wife. I am not
(39:43):
responsible to force you to meetmy needs, right? But in both of
those cases, I'm responsible formy own. But when it comes to the
wife, you know, it's theopposite. It can be the opposite
side of that coin where it's notabout demanding you to have more
sex, but demanding you to backoff.
Demanding that, you know what?No. We're not doing that
(40:05):
tonight. It's a culture of no.It's a culture of on my own
terms.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Culture of no.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
And God forbid that be a part of any marriage, that
we don't that we beginWithholding. We begin to
operate, you know, like just inselfishness. I've seen so many
marriages destroyed by thewithholding of sex in a
marriage. And again, that can bemen or women, but often that is
the the weapon of choice forwomen in marriage is to withhold
(40:33):
sex either because I'm angry,resentful, mad, disappointed, or
because I'm lazy in my marriage.And I just think it's not that
big of a deal to me, itshouldn't be a big deal to you.
And that is a direct slap in theface of a God who says, guess
what? Neither of you createdthis. I'm the one who created
this. I have a design. I have aplan.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
So good. You know, it's complicated. This is a
complicated area.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
We need part two, three, four,
Speaker 1 (40:57):
five. Know, there's so much more. You know, in the
book Song of Songs, some peoplehave tried to interpret that as
nonsexual. It is a lot of sex inthe book of Song of Solomon.
Song of Songs, Song of Solomon,same book, named different ways
by different people.
But in that book, it talks aboutthe generosity of sex. It talks
(41:19):
about the protection of sex. Ittalks about the visual
generosity of sex, and what Iwould say there is just, man,
work with what you got, youknow? Give each other the gifts
that you have to give to oneanother and stretch yourself,
push yourself to love oneanother. And men are very
visual, and that's an area whereno man should ever demand.
(41:43):
And I would also be watch outfor this men. I wanna speak to
the men. Be careful that you'renot taking something that you've
seen in pornography and tryingto impose it into your bedroom.
The pornification of Christianmarriage is brutal. That's lust
inside of marriage where you'retrying to, inside Christian
marriage, copy something thatyou wrongly saw.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
And that's broken and that's messed up. I'm not saying
that, but what I am saying isenjoy one another. Yeah. You
know, this should be a place ofjoy. Yeah.
And so to the young generationthat's watching, what I think is
so important for you to hear is,yes, you are to wait until
you're married to have sex, buton the other side of that, there
(42:29):
is great joy. Yeah. It can behealthy. And for the, I've said
this for years, our culture sayswhen you're single, it's go, go,
go, let's go, let's go, lots ofsex, lots of sex, lots of sex,
which is a lie too. And thenonce you get married, it's, I'm
tired, no, no, no.
But the Bible, it's actuallyexactly the opposite. It's when
(42:52):
you're single, it's no, no, no.But once you get married, it's
go, go, go. And let's explore ittogether. And if you're of the
lie, another lie, if you're ofthe lie that would say, well, to
try this out.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Before we get married.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Before we get married. We need to explore this
out. I'd say you're robbingyourself of mutual exploration,
mutual discovery. This is not ajourney between you and your
expectation of sex, because whatcreated that expectation?
Hollywood, books you've read,movies you've seen, wrong things
you've seen, broken thingsyou've seen.
(43:31):
Those are bad expressions. Youneed to be able to express this
just between you two.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
This is yours and it needs to be yours. And so that's
what you have to look forward towithout embarrassment, without
shame, without comparison. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
And this is an ongoing conversation and we will
repeat things we've said and wewill say new things because this
topic's not going away. But wewould just close out by telling
you that this is also an areathat brings a lot of shame and a
lot of hurt because of mistakesthat many of us have made in our
lives. And again, that prayer weprayed earlier, that applies to
every last one of you and everylast one of us that God is the
(44:09):
God who restores as we run tohim with all of our broken
places, with all of our needs.Maybe right now you're in a
marriage that is on the brinkand sexual disconnect is
definitely a part of what you'reliving in day in and day out,
and you don't even know how tobreak the cycle of that
disconnect. Jesus is the one whocan break the cycles.
(44:29):
Jesus is the one who can bringhealing and help us follow his
amazing way. So we just wannaencourage you today. We
appreciate your time andlistening in, and we pray that
God just keeps blessing youthrough the overflow.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Thanks again for tuning into the overflow, and
we'll see you next time. We loveyou.
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