September 27, 2025 • 43 mins
We walk through the seven values that shape life at Keystone Church. Culture happens by
default or by design, and we choose to design ours around biblical truths like Jesus changing
lives, living in community, and embracing both reverence and celebration. We don’t believe you
have to choose between deep theology and vibrant worship—or between seriousness and fun.
We’re raising a church family that worships loud, serves strong, and laughs often.
QUESTIONS:
1. Which of Keystone’s seven values most challenges or inspires you?
2. What kind of culture is being unintentionally created in your home or community?
3. How do you balance seriousness and fun in your walk with God?
READ MORE:
- Jesus changes lives in 2 Corinthians 5:17
- “I made man and woman” in Genesis 1:27
- “Whatever you do, do it unto the Lord” in Colossians 3:23
- Heaven as a place of celebration and joy in Isaiah 25:6
- “It is not good for man to be alone” in Genesis 2:18
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the overflow with Brandon and Susan
Thomas. We're excited tohopefully encourage you today.
We're gonna be talking aboutthings that have really
encouraged us and we're hopingit overflows to help you too.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh, yeah. And here we are episode two. One of the
(00:32):
things that we believe in withall our heart is that culture is
created by default or it'screated by design.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And
Speaker 2 (00:46):
the way you have an intentional culture, see a
default culture means you'rejust kind of winging it, you're
going with what you feel, butwhen you decide, here's the
culture we want, that's whenyou're ready to change your
family tree.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
And at Keystone, we have developed an intentional
culture. We're still working onit, of course. We're always
growing and getting better. Butour intentional culture is
created by a series of valuesthat we treasure.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Mission is given to us by God. Vision is how we see
ourselves doing it. But valuesare those things in a season of
your church that you areintentionally installing to
create the church or the companyor the family that you want. And
so our values, we're gonnaaddress one of our values today
that's super exciting and wethink it really is helpful in
(01:38):
your life. It's a value that'llmake a difference in your rhythm
of life, how you do life withyour kids.
It could be incredibly value foryour business, but it's been
invaluable for our church.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Okay, so I wanna just make a note, kind of another
side note comment about cultureand how it happens either by
default or by design. And I justthink it's so important, and
we'll probably talk about thison multiple, you know, times
together on this podcast. But Ithink this is where worldview,
which we talked about previouslybeing one of the things we're
(02:12):
gonna talk about, biblicalworldview, where we have to
understand that if we allowculture to happen in your home,
in your church, in yourfriendships, with your physical
health, with your sexuality,with your mental state, I mean,
you name the thing, with yourmoney, your finances, if we
allow things to happen bydefault, the default is always
(02:36):
destruction.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
The default setting in life is not life. No. The
default setting in this world isdeath and decay.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
The default setting in your body, if you just let it
go, is not abs and muscles and aperfect blood pressure.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The default setting is cholesterol, bad blood
pressure, and you're on meds.Yeah. That's the default
setting. That's where we're allheaded. Yeah.
And ultimately, we're all headedto death. Yeah. That is the
default setting. To, bring life,you have to have that by design.
Yeah.
You may stumble on it here andthere just by going with the
(03:17):
flow, but really, you've gottabecome intentional.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
You have to become intentional. That truth
Speaker 2 (03:22):
is a life changer.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's profound. That alone, if if that can sink into
our lives, we begin to ask thequestion, so what do I value?
Because in addition to thedefault setting gonna be the
slow tug to death, todestruction, to basically losing
things that you do love. Inaddition to that, your own
desires, my own desires aregonna reach for things and
(03:44):
elevate things that end uphurting me further.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know, we were we had dinner with Pastor Kevin and
Sheila Gerald, and they began totalk, when they talked,
something just came up wherethis is a great, great couple
that you're gonna get to knowbecause we'll have them on, but
they are doing an incrediblework in the Pacific Northwest.
(04:08):
They have an incredible networkof churches, great influence.
But one of the things I wasstruck with is they actually
have an intentional, like, thisis who I am. This is what I do.
And they have it down to aphrase like, am, I think he
said, I bring wisdom and Ipreach the word or something.
Like, it was down to it, andshe's like, I exhort and I
(04:29):
encourage. I mean, I'm probablynot getting it right
specifically, but they were sodialed in. They were clear.
Really, I was like, man, I wannabe that intentional. They're
like, this is who I am.
This is what I do. This is whatGod has made me to be.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That's really good. It's really good.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's design.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
It is, that's design. And hopefully it's obvious, we
want our design, whatever thedesign is for the values you
choose in your life or in yourchurch, that it be biblically
driven and biblically based.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Now through the years, we've had some values
that currently we're not reallyteaching. We still value them,
but values can kind of move. Solike if you have small kids,
you're gonna have some valuesthat really change when they get
a little older. Yeah. You maystill value them, but they're
not upfront.
(05:20):
And so we're talking about thethings that are upfront on our
mind, and we're teachingregularly because we need it
right now. There's seven valuesin our church. We're gonna talk
about one of them today. Yeah.We'll hit these periodically,
different ones, but let's gothrough all seven and then we'll
choose the one.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And you'll be able to discern which ones of the values
will never change. Because thereare some values that are in
stone.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Starting with number one, Jesus changes lives.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
We are utterly, everything is about Jesus.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
There is no hope, there is no help without Jesus.
That's right. And from Jesus, wehave such practical steps. And
with his power, we're able towalk out those steps.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah. Number two is the Bible is our truth. Another
one that's going to always be upfront and center. Always. The
Bible is our truth that ourworldview comes from the word of
God.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, it's not my truth. It's not your truth.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
It's not even our truth.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, there's a definite move in our culture
where you have your ownindividual experience and you'd
like to define your worldthrough the prism of your
experience, and it's summed upin my truth. Yeah. You know,
this is my truth. This is myliving experience. And it's true
you have an experience, but webelieve God is objective truth.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And so the reason we have that as a value is our
culture is one that is lesseningits belief in objective truth.
We are more and more and morebelieving that truth comes from
you. And it just doesn't hold upto reality. Yeah. Truth is that
(07:00):
which corresponds with reality.
And so the Bible's our truth. Sowhen the Bible says, I have made
man and woman, I made them. Thatmeans we don't get to decide if
I'm a man or a woman. God'salready decided.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
It's premade.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So the Bible is our truth. Good. Number three, we're
in this together. We're in thistogether. And that's that
culture of you do not walkalone.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
You are not designed, you are not created. God said
Genesis two eighteen, it is notgood for man or woman to be
alone. He has a design and webelieve with all of our heart
that pre heaven on earth, God'schurch, God's bride is part of
his great design to take awaythat aloneness. Obviously,
(07:44):
marriage was the firstapplication when he created us.
And then here it is the church.
It's no wonder or no no bychance that he calls the church
his bride. And so, yeah, thechurch is a space to be a place
where you find community, youfind that relationship with
other people and with God.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's why we really don't want Keystone to be a
place for you where you justshow up
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And you worship and then you leave now, and you have
no interaction. And listen, ifit's stay home and do nothing or
come to Keystone, show up andthen leave, come to Keystone,
show up and then leave, you'rein the right spot. You're
getting God's truth. You'reworshiping with God's people.
But if you want the fullexperience of the Christian
walk, it is not meant to be donealone.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And
Speaker 2 (08:30):
for those who would be online only, I would say it
is not meant to be done alone.You've gotta get with the
believers. You gotta walk withthem. You gotta be challenged by
them. We're in this together.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah. Makes me think I'm a picture person and this
may be the most terriblepicture, but in my mind, I just
saw like this, I don't know ifit's a bank account or like this
mound of cash. Say And thatthere's like a $5,000 in an
account and popping in andpopping out, you get a certain
amount, but there's all thesethousands left. Like, but you
have to engage to experience thebenefit of that resource. And I
(09:03):
think that's the reality of thechurch is you're gonna you're
gonna get, you know, benefitjust coming on a weekend.
I mean, God's gonna do powerfulthings in that time together,
but there's even more. There'seven more. That is so important
and there's other things soimportant, so.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So good.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
The next one is passion drives us. Passion
drives us, and we just believepassion pours out of you. It
doesn't need to be pulled out ofyou, and we're just so committed
to not begging people to do whatGod's asked you to do. Yeah.
We're not gonna beg, we're gonnapresent the truth, and then our
(09:41):
heart is that this would be apassionate place.
We need more Christ followersthat are passionate
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh, about following come on, light fire, a Lord.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And a little warning. Something that'll make you
passionate real quick issuffering.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And God's design is not that the church is a
suffering church in order tobecome passionate. Yeah. God
calls, the people of Israel keptsaying, be passionate, be
passionate, be passionate. Don'tjust bring me your sacrifices, I
want your heart. Bring, bepassionate.
And then they're not passionate,so inevitably they're straying
away from God. And then whenthey suffer, they turn to God,
(10:18):
they get passionate, and thenhis blessings rain down. Okay.
How about we just skip thesuffering?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And stay passionate. Yeah. And I'm gonna share a
little personal window into my,like, prayer life. Will not
surprise you at all. But when Ipray and I talk to God, there's
so many times when this isliterally my prayer.
God, please keep me soft so thatI don't need breaking.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I'm moldable. God, please. And by the way, side
note, suffering is unavoidable.Suffering does not always mean
we've strayed from God and we'lldo probably whole talks on that
too because that's a theologyand a worldview. Suffering is
unavoidable.
Jesus said in this world, you'regonna have trouble. He let us
know, but take heart, I'veovercome the world. So, you know
(11:02):
but with that said, some of thetrouble and the suffering, like
you said, it happens because westray or we just drift or we
just get tired and we're notintentional and we find
ourselves in a hard place andthen suffering, it literally
draws us back to Christ. And somy my private prayers sometimes
are, God, I I don't wanna bringextra suffering on myself. And
(11:25):
so I'm just praying, Lord, willyou help me not require that to
feel close to you and moreimportantly, to be close to you.
And so that's just that's anongoing prayer in the heart of
Speaker 2 (11:38):
this world. Passion drives us. We sing loud. We sing
loud. We have a culture ofworship.
At Keystone, it's just, this iswho we are. Yeah. Passion
engages our worship, and we're achurch that there's nothing
wrong with quiet worship, and wehave moments of reflection in
our services, but we wanna be apassionate worshiping We love
(12:01):
worship, and we value it. Youknow, if you're one, if you're a
person who believes that, youknow, I'm just gonna kinda show
up to church late, and then whenthe singing is over, then I'll
get the main meat, and that'sthe preaching. Yeah.
But we believe that the Bibleteaches it's the whole package.
Oh, That there's somethingsupernatural that happens when
(12:24):
you sing.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to talk about that
Speaker 2 (12:26):
one. And then we bring our best. Yes. We bring
our best.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
But God says do everything as unto the Lord. And
that's a whole exciting one totalk about because as you're
changing diapers, young mom, asyou are helping your teenagers,
as you are loving your spouse,as you are doing your job well
at work, whatever it is thatyou're putting your hands to and
your mind toward, God says doeverything as unto the Lord and
(12:56):
we do it for him and we bringour best.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And the final one that we'll, this is the one
we're gonna talk about today isthis one, we're serious.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Very serious.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
About
Speaker 1 (13:06):
having Having
Speaker 2 (13:08):
fun. Now this is one of those that is a value that
has risen. We may not have totalk about this as much later
when it's fully embraced, butthis is a value that we love
right now, and we are teachingit because this is something
that is highly contested inchurch circles. Let me read a
(13:29):
quote for you. There's anarticle that I was reading, and
in this article, someone saidthis.
He said, I am grateful to Godthat I was not raised in a cool,
exciting, attractional church. Iam thankful that I was raised in
an assembly by a godly fatherand mother, good, that was not
(13:52):
worldly. We won't disagree withthat.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, great.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Ours was an unsensational, unexciting, fully
Baptist congregation, itpreached the word and the
gospel. It's hard. Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Can I just say the first thing about
Speaker 2 (14:10):
that? Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
You're gonna dive in to unpack that, but can I just
first say, why do you gottacritique other people?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Why can't you just thank God for your journey and
experience and celebrate theexperience of someone else? If
these two experiences, theycould be completely polar
opposite in personality, butthey're both presenting Jesus
and the risen Christ, the gospelof Jesus Christ, and lives are
being changed, why do we have tocriticize one another?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And there's a whole thing called dumb dichotomies.
Again, pastor Kevin Geraldpreached that one time. Good.
Good. I've never forgotten it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Oh, so good.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So today, I'm saying pastor Kevin Gerald said dumb
dichotomies. Next time, I willsay, as I always say, dumb But
dumb dichotomy is that yourchurch is either a, love Jesus,
God is high and lifted up, andwe focus on the gospel. Or you a
(15:16):
church that draws the lost, andyou have a lot of fun, and you
do all, and I'm like, that's adumb dichotomy.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And instead of giving those people meat of the gospel,
you're giving them cotton candy
Speaker 2 (15:28):
that
Speaker 1 (15:29):
doesn't matter and makes them sick.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
What there is another way where you can exalt This is
something that we're seriousabout. We are deeply serious,
and we never get tired. Everysingle service, we exalt high
the name of God. When we'replanning worship services, one
of the things that we will talkabout with those that are in the
(15:53):
room, we'll say, Hey, govertical, go vertical, go
vertical, go vertical. Lifeshould not just be, and we'll
talk about worship, but itshouldn't just be horizontal, me
and you, and how do I feel, andNo, what am I no, no, we need to
go vertical.
And so regularly, maybe almostweekly, we lead the church to
imagine themselves singing, andour voices are in the hallways
(16:17):
and in the throne room of God,singing with the angels to God.
God is the object of ourworship. We are serious about an
elevated vertical, high andlifted up. We take God
seriously. Yeah.
But we also believe you can havefun.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, and the reason, the reason is because God is the
author of fun. He is a fun God.He's the creator of fun. And you
often use illustration of hecould have made eating something
that was just boring and Manilaand nothing, but he gave us
taste buds to where foods willjust excite the taste buds in
(16:56):
our tongue and in our mouth andit's desirable. Why?
Why did he do that?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
God's the one who gave us eyes.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yes, to see.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
To see a sunrise or a sunset. What Yes. Does that do?
God's the one who gave us earsthat you hear a song and you
cry. God's the one who gave youthe sense of smell.
You can smell yourgrandmother's, or you can smell
a pie cooking.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
And all of a sudden you're transported into your
grandmother's kitchen.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And like you said, God gave you taste buds.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
There's nothing in the evolutionary theory for the
smell, taste buds. There'snothing in evolutionary theory,
cold, determined evolutionarytheory that says that we are to
laugh. Yeah. Humor. Yeah.
And all of everything I justsaid is elevated in the word of
(17:50):
God.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, exactly. And so when you think about God being
the author of fun, why in theworld would his church be the
opposite? Why in the world wouldhis church somehow think we're
more holy the more miserable weare or the more serious that we
are? We can have again the bothend, a high, high reverence, a
holy fear of God. I love Godwith all my heart, soul, mind,
(18:13):
and strength, and love myneighbor as myself, and at the
same time celebrate the goodnessof God.
Celebrate the fact that he madeus in his image. And our God,
all through the old testament,he had required celebrations. He
drew and led the people tocelebrate, and he's still doing
it today.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Oh yeah, he commanded feasts. Jesus, whenever he, his
first miracle was what? Takingwater at a wedding and making it
into wine. Right. Over and overand over again, you see Jesus,
he gets criticized by thePharisees, why?
(18:51):
Because he is at a socialgathering, and it's in the
context of that gathering thathe's connecting with those far
from God. Yeah. Now, in amoment, we'll talk about some of
the dangers and pitfalls, butfirst, let's just sit on this a
little bit longer. I think itcan all be summed up by this
phrase, God is a blast.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
He is a blast.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
God is a blast. And the danger of separating your
life where I'm serious about Godand I'm fun over here. I'm
serious on Sundays, and I grillout and have fun on fourth of
July with my buddies. I'mserious on Sundays, and I have
(19:37):
fun at the movies. I'm seriousabout Sunday.
This divided life-
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Terrible.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Where you have failed to incorporate, and some
Christians have said it's unholyto have fun at all. What you do
is you basically, when youbelieve God is the biblical
beatdown, when you believe Godis the cosmic killjoy, then he
is the last place you will gofor any good time. And that is a
(20:04):
dangerous place. We have a younggeneration that is catching that
message from others, and they'regonna go over here and have a
good time. Then they're comingto church and either confess up
and try to get back, or justlive a double life.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yes, Or compartmentalize life, like
you're saying, where, you knowwhat? God touches this part of
my life, but God, I need you toexit or go to a different room
while I partake in whatever itis that I'm doing right over
here. And we're talkingspecifically, you know, about
the church, and this is one ofour seven values, as you said.
But I wanna take a moment. Let'sjust talk for a second to all
(20:38):
the families who are listening,moms and dads, whatever age,
whatever stage.
Let's talk about and maybe thinkof some memories that popped to
your head because I've gottensome popping in mine. The power
of having a culture in your homeof fun. Because if you are a
mom, we have four kids and ithas been the joy of our life to
parent our four children,They're now all entering into
(20:59):
adult world, like young adultworld. We got one teenager, or
rather high schooler left in thehouse. But with that said, you
have to be intentional becauseparenting's hard.
It's one of the hardest things.And what are some memories, and
I'm gonna give one, where in themiddle of the hard, you choose
(21:19):
to have a culture of fun. AndI'm thinking of one about you
and it's You're in gonna theearly just
Speaker 2 (21:25):
go there.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I would tell you in the early days of Keystone
Church, and even when it wasreally hard, I mean, Keystone
started from pretty muchnothing. And there were some
moments, particularly movinginto the furniture store where
you were like, can we even,you're moving into the furniture
store and you're like, can weeven do this financially, right?
There's hard times, you gotpressures at work.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Big risk, big
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Big risk, you've got things at your job or things in
your adult life that arepressure, high pressure. And we
had young children at home andmaybe three at that time, maybe
it's four, but I just rememberyou coming home. And the first
thing you would do is you we hada hallway, you walk in the door
and you just walk down thishallway and then there's the
kitchen and it opens in theliving room. And you would just
(22:09):
lay in the hallway on thecarpet, just lay down on your
back.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Those little munchkins.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
And all four of our little munchkins would crawl and
jump and just get all over you.And you would just lay there and
they were so happy daddy washome and they would laugh and
squeal and you would play withthem. But that is being serious
about having fun. And it's notjust for this one goal of my
pleasure, which that's not awrong thing either we'll talk
(22:35):
about, But it's bigger thanthat. It's a culture of this is
who we are.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well, know, just being transparent, even when our
oldest daughter, Elle, when shegot married, Tyler grew up in a
family that would play games.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Board games, whatever.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And we were never into that. We would go see
movies, we would watch shows,but that was the main form of
our entertainment. Yeah. Go tomovies, watch shows, maybe some
games, basketball games,football games, whatever. That
was really it for us, maybeplaying football in the back
with Beck, sports, you know, butwe were not board game kind of
(23:17):
people, and we went on our firstfamily vacation where Tyler was
Yeah.
You remember this? And we werein Galveston in this one
bedroom, just slammed into thisplace. This wasn't that long
ago. And Tyler was like, Hey,let's play a game. And we're
like, Okay.
(23:38):
No, honestly, I'm the one who'slike, No, I don't want to in my
heart. But I'm like, Let's be agood sport. Let's do it. Come on
Tyler, show us how, show us whatwe're doing here. And we had so
much fun.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So much fun.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And that's where I've always said Tyler made our
family even better.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
But that's one example is just he installed a
little more fun. And that's whatI'd say in a family, fun has to
be intentional and you gottapush yourself sometimes to try
new things.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And to look for the opportunity to laugh. I'm
telling you, sometimes we gottadecide. We're gonna be a family
that laughs. We're gonna be afamily that's warm because
here's the deal, you could havecome home from work and not laid
on that floor and been a coldfather with a lot of stress. I
need a moment, I need to be bymyself.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That's what I was feeling. And I know exactly what
you're talking about. I'vetalked about it many times. And
I mean, it was a high stressseason because we were taking
the biggest leap of our livesafter starting the church.
Starting the church was thefirst, but then this was a big
moment.
And so when I would come in, Ihad a burden on me, but God, the
(24:50):
Holy Spirit was just telling me,just get on that floor and play
with those kids, push. Andthat's where culture is
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Chosen.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Is chosen. It's by definition. You either define
your culture or it's by default.Default, I would have gone and
sat in the chair. Would havedisappeared into TV or Right.
Something like Okay, so that isso important. God is a blast if
you don't predetermine. Now,what does that look like in
church?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So what that could look like is that Critical
article where he basically feelslike you have to choose. And I
do understand. If a church is, Ido wanna acknowledge this, that
sometimes in our attempt toreach others, some, and maybe us
(25:40):
at times, can't confess to thisbecause I don't know that we've
ever done it intentionally, butI wanna be open to that. But in
our effort to reach others,sometimes we made what's called
jump the shark. It's from aHappy Days episode, one of their
last ones where they went toofar.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It's just like too much.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
With Saffanz?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, Fonz was like surfing and then he jumped With
lot the the people. Yeah, know,sorry guys. Where you jumped the
shark, you just, it's like,okay.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Too far.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Too far.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Gratuitous, not
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Gratuitous, too there's no purpose, you know,
and I get that, and I feel that.And honestly, there are things
we did earlier in our churchthat I wouldn't do today. I just
feel a sense of, that's just toomuch, and maybe it's age, I
don't know. But I do believe,and so I do acknowledge that
(26:33):
there's a point where, are youstill the church? Like, are you
doing?
Where is the tie to the thingsof God? Where is the bridge to
the truth? What are you doing?But with that acknowledgement,
okay, with that acknowledgement,and I'm avoiding the whole talk
(26:53):
about attractional church. Me, Iwill say this.
The attractional church isreally a season of church where
we were basically, the churchwas attempting to reach people.
That was the heart. We wannareach people, we wanna reach
people. And so basically just dowhat whatever it takes to reach
people. And I love that heart,and I share the heart.
Reach people with everything yougot. But at times, where we've
(27:19):
come to now is that was largely,that ethic and that thought was
largely done in a culture wherethe thought of church doing
things that spoke the languageof the culture was so different,
because church was a foreignlanguage to the culture. It
really won a lot of people tothe Lord. We're in a culture now
(27:40):
that is really kind of antichurch, and whereas that thrived
in a neutral or even a positivechurch environment. Now what
would have existed all along anddid exist all along and where I
think a lot of the church thatmaybe some that used to be
attraction are kinda comingaround is just the power of God.
(28:02):
I know it sounds crazy, but justhaving the ability for the power
of God. And again, I'm notagainst creativity and all that,
but make sure that there's somepower of God in there, that
there's moments where you areushering in the presence of God.
And I think that's probablywhere the heart, I feel like I'm
(28:23):
rambling.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
You're believing the best if that's the heart. Yeah,
we're believing
Speaker 2 (28:26):
the Yeah, rambling a little bit, but I'm, yeah. But
here's the thing. All that tosummarize and say this, that
where we are.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Where we are is we wanna have moments that are fun.
In And the middle of a service,we may have someone dance, you
know? Or we're gonna have aparty in our plaza, okay? We're
gonna have food trucks, okay?Well, the gospel doesn't need
food trucks, quote unquote.
(28:55):
The gospel doesn't need LEDwalls. The gospel doesn't need a
party on the plaza. You'retricking it up. You're trying to
reach people. The gospel doesn'tneed that guitar solo.
The gospel, and this is thecriticism. Yeah. And I would
say, you're right. Jesus said,hey, if you don't say it, the
rocks are gonna cry out. Thegospel doesn't need an LED wall.
(29:19):
The gospel doesn't need a greatsound system. The gospel doesn't
need a beautiful building. Thegospel doesn't need a party on
the plaza. The gospel doesn'tneed food trucks that weekend.
The gospel doesn't need a candypalooza on the weekend of
Halloween at The your gospeldoesn't need any of that.
But what if some of it is justfun? What if it's just, hey,
(29:41):
we're community?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
And what if it makes God smile?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah. What if we're doing it as spiritual family so
you don't have to go out to thecommunity to do those things?
Hey, you could do it here too.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah. Well, we're created in the image of God and
the same God, as you said, thatpainted the sunset, that painted
the sunrise and this colors inthe sky. We have his stamp of
his image on us as we paint anLED wall, as we pick out
creative graphics. And so what Iwould just say is that when it
comes to our value of we'reserious about having fun, we're
(30:13):
really talking about an attitudeof the heart. We're talking
about a deep value that showsitself in all these different
creative ways.
But when it comes to we'reserious about having fun, we
gotta know God's design.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right. Well, and let me say this before we go there.
There's also fun in our future,and this is important. I've got
a couple of places I wanna takeyou to in the word of God.
Isaiah 20 five:six, he said, Onthis mountain, the Lord of
armies will prepare for all thepeoples a feast.
This is our future, when Godmakes all things new. A feast of
(30:46):
choice meat, a feast with agedwine, Prime cuts of choice meat,
fine vintage wine. Isaiahdoubles down on the meat and the
wine. The meat and the wine.It's good meat.
It's good wine. Zechariahfourteen sixteen. Then all the
survivors from the nations thatcame against Jerusalem will go
(31:06):
up year after year to worshipthe king, the lord of armies,
and to celebrate the festival ofshelters. Wow. So
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Celebrate. Celebrate. Mine.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Mine. Then and then there's in another scripture
where it talks about a child isleading a parade of animals,
it's like a bear and a lion, andit's basically, these predators
are playing with the child. Itsays the child will put his hand
in a snake pit hole and will notbe bitten. The point is our
(31:38):
future is filled with fun andplay, and there's no
contradiction. But you were justheading us down the road.
I wanted to make sure we heardthat.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
That's so good.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
That it's not just now, it's forever. But in the
eternity, we will nail pleasure.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
We will nail pleasure. It will be done
perfectly. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (31:57):
because we'll have jobs to do there too.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
We'll have It'll be perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
No more thorns coming out of the ground and work by
the sweat of our brow. It'll bework. We'll have assignments.
We'll have vision. We'll havefuture.
We'll have purpose.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
But in the today, we live in a broken world.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
We do.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
And in the broken world, you can get pleasure
wrong.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And so when we're elevating pleasure in this
episode, and we're talking aboutthe importance of play, and the
importance of fun, and sometimesit's for the fun of it, and you
need to bring fun into your walkwith the Lord, It's important
though to throw up some speedbumps.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Some caution flags. Yeah. Caution flags. Because in
our pleasure seeking, the Bibleis also full of warnings.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
In our pleasure seeking. And there's a lot of
different categories for that.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, right. And I think as we enter into some of
those categories just to helpyou, and this is really so
important what we're talkingabout here, That it is so
important to, as we go into someof the areas that could be traps
that we can fall into, is toagain understand that we're
serious about having fun. We'retalking about attitudes of the
heart, but we're also talkingabout pleasure and enjoyment.
(33:16):
Those are two different things,and they both are equally a part
of this conversation. And whenwe talk about the pleasures,
that element of enjoying thefun, enjoying the good things,
It starts with understandingthat every good thing comes from
God.
If it's a good thing, if it'struly pure and good, That came
from thing is a gift from Godwho made, the same God who made
(33:38):
the heavenly lights is the sameGod who made that fine wine that
we're gonna get to drink inheaven one day and it's gonna be
the best ever.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Right, same God. And so what are some of the big
gifts that he gives us today?Well, of the things that come to
our mind we can hit on
Speaker 2 (33:51):
is Sex.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Well, let's go there first. It's a gift. It's a gift
from God. And that'll be likemultiple podcasts, but it's a
gift from God, but we wannaenjoy God's gift God's way.
There is a plan that God has forthe pleasure.
And so we're serious abouthaving fun, but we're very
serious about having fun God'sway. And we believe marriage is
(34:15):
between one man and one womanand the covenant sex is to
happen in that marriage, thatcovenant for a lifetime. That's
where sex is supposed to happen.That's the design that God gave
us throughout scripture.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
First Corinthians seven. Yeah. And we'll do a deep
dive on this on another, a wholepodcast on Oh, such good Full
episode on this, but firstCorinthians seven talks about
the power of that sexuality. Itshould be a regular companion in
your marriage. It's a gift fromGod to be enjoyed fully.
And the way that it's to beenjoyed is I give you authority
(34:51):
over my body, you give meauthority over your body, And
together, it's this cool thing.It's the same teaching about
submission and how I am to livein an understanding way with you
or my prayers will be hindered,the Bible says. And you are to
live in a way where you'rethinking about me in submission.
(35:13):
So we are submitting to oneanother, we're thinking of one
another, and that makes its wayinto the bedroom. Yeah.
So some broken ways that sex canbe expressed. Obviously, the big
blinking light is pornography.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Pornography, I believe, is a cancer in our
culture.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
There's no question.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
The pornification of our culture has led to sexual
abuse, the rampant sexual abuse.It's often people who dabbled
with pornography that gotaddicted to pornography, then
that pornography, you begin to,you need more, you need
different, or you were abused,and it caused sexual confusion,
you're broken on the inside.Something has happened, and it's
(35:57):
just messed up.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah. And there's so many different ways that we
break bad when it comes to God'sgift of sex. And I think when we
talk about we're serious abouthaving fun, I think an
overarching help, whether we'retalking about sex or one of the
next things we're about toshare, that there's two litmus
tests, I believe, that are likethe trump card. They're like the
thing that we can go to to makesure, is my fun on the right
(36:21):
path? Or have I veered to adangerous place?
And that is this, as you arehaving that fun, as you are
enjoying that good time, are youat the same time loving the Lord
your God with all your heart,soul, mind, and strength? And
are you loving your neighbor
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Bingo.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
As yourself? Those are the two tests.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
So good.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
And if it can go through that filter and you can
absolutely say, yes, I am. Andby loving God, by the way, he
says in John, I think 15, hesays, if you love me, you'll
keep my commandments. So we'renot loving God when we disobey
his way and his rules. And sothat leads us to, you know, I
think about wine, I think aboutalcohol. It's another very big
one.
(37:00):
And I think it is reallyimpacting the church in some
very destructive ways. But Godhas a design for alcohol.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
He sure does. And this is where I wanna be very,
very clear that there's a lot ofdifferent teachings in the
church about alcohol. On the onehand, there's a teaching that I
grew up with, and that iscomplete and total abstinence.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
And I wanna honor that teaching. I wanna honor
often that teaching ofabstinence. Even my freshman
year of college, I wrote a paperon abstinence from alcohol, and
that's where I was at the time.And with alcohol, though, again,
because the Bible is our truth,I began to dive in, and the
(37:49):
strongest biblical argument forabstinence is that you've made
the choice to abstain. But theBible does give permission to
drink.
The Bible has permission todrink. But with that permission,
again, Jesus' first miracle wastaking wine, I mean, taking
water and making it into wine.Right. We know God does not make
(38:11):
evil substances. Right.
Jesus made a gift to that party.Elsewhere in the Bible, talks
about wine makes the heart glad,and then we just read about our
future, beautiful, well agedwine. All that to say is there's
not a strong biblical argumentthat the Bible says alcohol is
(38:32):
evil, it is to be avoided.There's a stronger biblical
argument if you wanna embraceabstinence that you are either
saying, I wanna live my lifewhere I just don't want that to
be a part of it. That's asubstance, it's too dangerous.
There's too much addiction. Ihave addiction in my family
tree, and that's just somethingI wanna put over there. Just
(38:55):
watch, I don't want that in mylife.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
There's freedom for this.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
There's freedom for you to do that. Another, so
that's a choice from strength,where you're saying, I just
don't want that temptation, Idon't want that in my life, I
don't need it. I don't like it.I don't care. Yeah.
That's fantastic. The secondcategory of abstinence would be
I can't. That's where you cannotdo alcohol God's way.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Could be a genetic predisposition. It could be
hereditary. It could be that youhave abused it in your life, and
your body has responded in a waythat you can't stop.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
And that would be where, biblically, you're in the
category of the weaker brothercategory in scripture, where
it's like, this is something,back then, it would have been, I
can't eat meat offered to idols.I can't do it. It bruises my
conscience. I cannot do it. AndPaul said, well, I have the
freedom to do it, but I won't doit with you because you're my
weaker brother, and I wanna lovemy weaker brother.
(39:52):
The point of that is, hey, weall have We blind are all weaker
brothers and sisters. If alcoholis your area, you know, then you
have great biblical grounding tosay, I'm going to abstain. There
are also those who would say, Iwanna enjoy God's gift, as
prescribed in the Bible, God'sway. And when we enjoy God's
(40:15):
gift God's way, there's a phrasethat you use that we have used
in all areas of our life, andthat would be in sex, that would
be in the pleasure of chocolateand desserts. And it would be in
the
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Ice cream.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Ice cream and it would be in the area of alcohol
and that is a plan, God's plan.But a plan for the pleasure.
Yeah. And just the warning, thewarnings are all over scripture
about alcohol and the dangers ofalcohol. Yeah.
The warnings are all overscripture about drinking past to
where you're buzzing, you'reincapacitated. And I think that
(40:54):
I'm convinced that a lot ofpeople, what we call social
drinking, you're actually, ifyou were to take your blood
alcohol content, you are farbeyond where you think you are.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
And so really, I think for the Christ follower to
drink like the world drinks isnot gonna work for you. Right.
You gotta have a better plan foryour pleasure. You gotta treat
it as a gift from God if you'regoing to drink, but you also
have to recognize the dangers ofit.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah. And that's why, I think that's part of the why
we say we are serious
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
About having fun. Even that phrase has multiple
layers of meaning. We're seriousbecause we believe God created
fun and the church should befun. God's a blast, the church
should be a blast too. But we'realso serious because we know the
pitfalls because of our sin andour sin nature and the tug of
desires that take us down adangerous and destructive path.
We're very serious that our funglorifies God, that it's in his
(41:48):
image and by his design. Andwhen you lead and you experience
a church that values this,together, it becomes a really
joyful place. And it's not allrainbows and unicorns where we
pretend like life's not hard.Life is hard and it hits us all,
but how beautiful for God'ssweet relief of laughter, of
dancing, of enjoying mealstogether, of having a blast
(42:11):
together. And as we walk thisjourney in the middle of it all,
we see the goodness of God inthe land of the living.
So we are serious.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
And I'd wrap it up by saying, you know, again, another
scripture I love is, The joy ofthe Lord is my strength. The joy
of the Lord. And we, asChristians, need to bring joy
back. And I think it'll bring awhole lot more strength, and
it'll teach the world what itlooks like to suffer well with
(42:41):
joy. You know, you can sufferand still have joy.
It's not delirious. But alsofeasting needs fasting.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah. It's rhythm.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
It's important to have that rhythm of feast and
fast, feast and fast. And sowe'd encourage you that as
you're exploring this for yourlife, man, just turn on your
brain. Yeah. Open up your Bible,be prayerful. Yeah.
And let's enjoy life, and let'sdo it God's way. We're serious
(43:14):
about having fun.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
We're serious about having fun.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Alright. Thanks for joining us for this episode of
The Overflow with Brandon andSusan. And we're excited to
tackle more of these issues,maybe even tackle some of the
things we brought up today inmore depth with more time. We
can't wait to do that. Love youguys and we'll see you next
time.
Welcome back to the overflow with Brandon and Susan
Thomas. We're excited tohopefully encourage you today.
We're gonna be talking aboutthings that have really
encouraged us and we're hopingit overflows to help you too.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh, yeah. And here we are episode two. One of the
(00:32):
things that we believe in withall our heart is that culture is
created by default or it'screated by design.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And
Speaker 2 (00:46):
the way you have an intentional culture, see a
default culture means you'rejust kind of winging it, you're
going with what you feel, butwhen you decide, here's the
culture we want, that's whenyou're ready to change your
family tree.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
And at Keystone, we have developed an intentional
culture. We're still working onit, of course. We're always
growing and getting better. Butour intentional culture is
created by a series of valuesthat we treasure.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Mission is given to us by God. Vision is how we see
ourselves doing it. But valuesare those things in a season of
your church that you areintentionally installing to
create the church or the companyor the family that you want. And
so our values, we're gonnaaddress one of our values today
that's super exciting and wethink it really is helpful in
(01:38):
your life. It's a value that'llmake a difference in your rhythm
of life, how you do life withyour kids.
It could be incredibly value foryour business, but it's been
invaluable for our church.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Okay, so I wanna just make a note, kind of another
side note comment about cultureand how it happens either by
default or by design. And I justthink it's so important, and
we'll probably talk about thison multiple, you know, times
together on this podcast. But Ithink this is where worldview,
which we talked about previouslybeing one of the things we're
(02:12):
gonna talk about, biblicalworldview, where we have to
understand that if we allowculture to happen in your home,
in your church, in yourfriendships, with your physical
health, with your sexuality,with your mental state, I mean,
you name the thing, with yourmoney, your finances, if we
allow things to happen bydefault, the default is always
(02:36):
destruction.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
The default setting in life is not life. No. The
default setting in this world isdeath and decay.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
The default setting in your body, if you just let it
go, is not abs and muscles and aperfect blood pressure.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The default setting is cholesterol, bad blood
pressure, and you're on meds.Yeah. That's the default
setting. That's where we're allheaded. Yeah.
And ultimately, we're all headedto death. Yeah. That is the
default setting. To, bring life,you have to have that by design.
Yeah.
You may stumble on it here andthere just by going with the
(03:17):
flow, but really, you've gottabecome intentional.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
You have to become intentional. That truth
Speaker 2 (03:22):
is a life changer.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's profound. That alone, if if that can sink into
our lives, we begin to ask thequestion, so what do I value?
Because in addition to thedefault setting gonna be the
slow tug to death, todestruction, to basically losing
things that you do love. Inaddition to that, your own
desires, my own desires aregonna reach for things and
(03:44):
elevate things that end uphurting me further.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know, we were we had dinner with Pastor Kevin and
Sheila Gerald, and they began totalk, when they talked,
something just came up wherethis is a great, great couple
that you're gonna get to knowbecause we'll have them on, but
they are doing an incrediblework in the Pacific Northwest.
(04:08):
They have an incredible networkof churches, great influence.
But one of the things I wasstruck with is they actually
have an intentional, like, thisis who I am. This is what I do.
And they have it down to aphrase like, am, I think he
said, I bring wisdom and Ipreach the word or something.
Like, it was down to it, andshe's like, I exhort and I
(04:29):
encourage. I mean, I'm probablynot getting it right
specifically, but they were sodialed in. They were clear.
Really, I was like, man, I wannabe that intentional. They're
like, this is who I am.
This is what I do. This is whatGod has made me to be.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That's really good. It's really good.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's design.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
It is, that's design. And hopefully it's obvious, we
want our design, whatever thedesign is for the values you
choose in your life or in yourchurch, that it be biblically
driven and biblically based.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Now through the years, we've had some values
that currently we're not reallyteaching. We still value them,
but values can kind of move. Solike if you have small kids,
you're gonna have some valuesthat really change when they get
a little older. Yeah. You maystill value them, but they're
not upfront.
(05:20):
And so we're talking about thethings that are upfront on our
mind, and we're teachingregularly because we need it
right now. There's seven valuesin our church. We're gonna talk
about one of them today. Yeah.We'll hit these periodically,
different ones, but let's gothrough all seven and then we'll
choose the one.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And you'll be able to discern which ones of the values
will never change. Because thereare some values that are in
stone.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Starting with number one, Jesus changes lives.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
We are utterly, everything is about Jesus.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
There is no hope, there is no help without Jesus.
That's right. And from Jesus, wehave such practical steps. And
with his power, we're able towalk out those steps.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah. Number two is the Bible is our truth. Another
one that's going to always be upfront and center. Always. The
Bible is our truth that ourworldview comes from the word of
God.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, it's not my truth. It's not your truth.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
It's not even our truth.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, there's a definite move in our culture
where you have your ownindividual experience and you'd
like to define your worldthrough the prism of your
experience, and it's summed upin my truth. Yeah. You know,
this is my truth. This is myliving experience. And it's true
you have an experience, but webelieve God is objective truth.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And so the reason we have that as a value is our
culture is one that is lesseningits belief in objective truth.
We are more and more and morebelieving that truth comes from
you. And it just doesn't hold upto reality. Yeah. Truth is that
(07:00):
which corresponds with reality.
And so the Bible's our truth. Sowhen the Bible says, I have made
man and woman, I made them. Thatmeans we don't get to decide if
I'm a man or a woman. God'salready decided.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
It's premade.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So the Bible is our truth. Good. Number three, we're
in this together. We're in thistogether. And that's that
culture of you do not walkalone.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
You are not designed, you are not created. God said
Genesis two eighteen, it is notgood for man or woman to be
alone. He has a design and webelieve with all of our heart
that pre heaven on earth, God'schurch, God's bride is part of
his great design to take awaythat aloneness. Obviously,
(07:44):
marriage was the firstapplication when he created us.
And then here it is the church.
It's no wonder or no no bychance that he calls the church
his bride. And so, yeah, thechurch is a space to be a place
where you find community, youfind that relationship with
other people and with God.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's why we really don't want Keystone to be a
place for you where you justshow up
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And you worship and then you leave now, and you have
no interaction. And listen, ifit's stay home and do nothing or
come to Keystone, show up andthen leave, come to Keystone,
show up and then leave, you'rein the right spot. You're
getting God's truth. You'reworshiping with God's people.
But if you want the fullexperience of the Christian
walk, it is not meant to be donealone.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And
Speaker 2 (08:30):
for those who would be online only, I would say it
is not meant to be done alone.You've gotta get with the
believers. You gotta walk withthem. You gotta be challenged by
them. We're in this together.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah. Makes me think I'm a picture person and this
may be the most terriblepicture, but in my mind, I just
saw like this, I don't know ifit's a bank account or like this
mound of cash. Say And thatthere's like a $5,000 in an
account and popping in andpopping out, you get a certain
amount, but there's all thesethousands left. Like, but you
have to engage to experience thebenefit of that resource. And I
(09:03):
think that's the reality of thechurch is you're gonna you're
gonna get, you know, benefitjust coming on a weekend.
I mean, God's gonna do powerfulthings in that time together,
but there's even more. There'seven more. That is so important
and there's other things soimportant, so.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So good.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
The next one is passion drives us. Passion
drives us, and we just believepassion pours out of you. It
doesn't need to be pulled out ofyou, and we're just so committed
to not begging people to do whatGod's asked you to do. Yeah.
We're not gonna beg, we're gonnapresent the truth, and then our
(09:41):
heart is that this would be apassionate place.
We need more Christ followersthat are passionate
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh, about following come on, light fire, a Lord.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And a little warning. Something that'll make you
passionate real quick issuffering.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And God's design is not that the church is a
suffering church in order tobecome passionate. Yeah. God
calls, the people of Israel keptsaying, be passionate, be
passionate, be passionate. Don'tjust bring me your sacrifices, I
want your heart. Bring, bepassionate.
And then they're not passionate,so inevitably they're straying
away from God. And then whenthey suffer, they turn to God,
(10:18):
they get passionate, and thenhis blessings rain down. Okay.
How about we just skip thesuffering?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And stay passionate. Yeah. And I'm gonna share a
little personal window into my,like, prayer life. Will not
surprise you at all. But when Ipray and I talk to God, there's
so many times when this isliterally my prayer.
God, please keep me soft so thatI don't need breaking.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I'm moldable. God, please. And by the way, side
note, suffering is unavoidable.Suffering does not always mean
we've strayed from God and we'lldo probably whole talks on that
too because that's a theologyand a worldview. Suffering is
unavoidable.
Jesus said in this world, you'regonna have trouble. He let us
know, but take heart, I'veovercome the world. So, you know
(11:02):
but with that said, some of thetrouble and the suffering, like
you said, it happens because westray or we just drift or we
just get tired and we're notintentional and we find
ourselves in a hard place andthen suffering, it literally
draws us back to Christ. And somy my private prayers sometimes
are, God, I I don't wanna bringextra suffering on myself. And
(11:25):
so I'm just praying, Lord, willyou help me not require that to
feel close to you and moreimportantly, to be close to you.
And so that's just that's anongoing prayer in the heart of
Speaker 2 (11:38):
this world. Passion drives us. We sing loud. We sing
loud. We have a culture ofworship.
At Keystone, it's just, this iswho we are. Yeah. Passion
engages our worship, and we're achurch that there's nothing
wrong with quiet worship, and wehave moments of reflection in
our services, but we wanna be apassionate worshiping We love
(12:01):
worship, and we value it. Youknow, if you're one, if you're a
person who believes that, youknow, I'm just gonna kinda show
up to church late, and then whenthe singing is over, then I'll
get the main meat, and that'sthe preaching. Yeah.
But we believe that the Bibleteaches it's the whole package.
Oh, That there's somethingsupernatural that happens when
(12:24):
you sing.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to talk about that
Speaker 2 (12:26):
one. And then we bring our best. Yes. We bring
our best.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
But God says do everything as unto the Lord. And
that's a whole exciting one totalk about because as you're
changing diapers, young mom, asyou are helping your teenagers,
as you are loving your spouse,as you are doing your job well
at work, whatever it is thatyou're putting your hands to and
your mind toward, God says doeverything as unto the Lord and
(12:56):
we do it for him and we bringour best.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And the final one that we'll, this is the one
we're gonna talk about today isthis one, we're serious.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Very serious.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
About
Speaker 1 (13:06):
having Having
Speaker 2 (13:08):
fun. Now this is one of those that is a value that
has risen. We may not have totalk about this as much later
when it's fully embraced, butthis is a value that we love
right now, and we are teachingit because this is something
that is highly contested inchurch circles. Let me read a
(13:29):
quote for you. There's anarticle that I was reading, and
in this article, someone saidthis.
He said, I am grateful to Godthat I was not raised in a cool,
exciting, attractional church. Iam thankful that I was raised in
an assembly by a godly fatherand mother, good, that was not
(13:52):
worldly. We won't disagree withthat.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, great.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Ours was an unsensational, unexciting, fully
Baptist congregation, itpreached the word and the
gospel. It's hard. Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Can I just say the first thing about
Speaker 2 (14:10):
that? Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
You're gonna dive in to unpack that, but can I just
first say, why do you gottacritique other people?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Why can't you just thank God for your journey and
experience and celebrate theexperience of someone else? If
these two experiences, theycould be completely polar
opposite in personality, butthey're both presenting Jesus
and the risen Christ, the gospelof Jesus Christ, and lives are
being changed, why do we have tocriticize one another?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And there's a whole thing called dumb dichotomies.
Again, pastor Kevin Geraldpreached that one time. Good.
Good. I've never forgotten it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Oh, so good.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So today, I'm saying pastor Kevin Gerald said dumb
dichotomies. Next time, I willsay, as I always say, dumb But
dumb dichotomy is that yourchurch is either a, love Jesus,
God is high and lifted up, andwe focus on the gospel. Or you a
(15:16):
church that draws the lost, andyou have a lot of fun, and you
do all, and I'm like, that's adumb dichotomy.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And instead of giving those people meat of the gospel,
you're giving them cotton candy
Speaker 2 (15:28):
that
Speaker 1 (15:29):
doesn't matter and makes them sick.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
What there is another way where you can exalt This is
something that we're seriousabout. We are deeply serious,
and we never get tired. Everysingle service, we exalt high
the name of God. When we'replanning worship services, one
of the things that we will talkabout with those that are in the
(15:53):
room, we'll say, Hey, govertical, go vertical, go
vertical, go vertical. Lifeshould not just be, and we'll
talk about worship, but itshouldn't just be horizontal, me
and you, and how do I feel, andNo, what am I no, no, we need to
go vertical.
And so regularly, maybe almostweekly, we lead the church to
imagine themselves singing, andour voices are in the hallways
(16:17):
and in the throne room of God,singing with the angels to God.
God is the object of ourworship. We are serious about an
elevated vertical, high andlifted up. We take God
seriously. Yeah.
But we also believe you can havefun.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, and the reason, the reason is because God is the
author of fun. He is a fun God.He's the creator of fun. And you
often use illustration of hecould have made eating something
that was just boring and Manilaand nothing, but he gave us
taste buds to where foods willjust excite the taste buds in
(16:56):
our tongue and in our mouth andit's desirable. Why?
Why did he do that?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
God's the one who gave us eyes.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yes, to see.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
To see a sunrise or a sunset. What Yes. Does that do?
God's the one who gave us earsthat you hear a song and you
cry. God's the one who gave youthe sense of smell.
You can smell yourgrandmother's, or you can smell
a pie cooking.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
And all of a sudden you're transported into your
grandmother's kitchen.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And like you said, God gave you taste buds.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
There's nothing in the evolutionary theory for the
smell, taste buds. There'snothing in evolutionary theory,
cold, determined evolutionarytheory that says that we are to
laugh. Yeah. Humor. Yeah.
And all of everything I justsaid is elevated in the word of
(17:50):
God.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, exactly. And so when you think about God being
the author of fun, why in theworld would his church be the
opposite? Why in the world wouldhis church somehow think we're
more holy the more miserable weare or the more serious that we
are? We can have again the bothend, a high, high reverence, a
holy fear of God. I love Godwith all my heart, soul, mind,
(18:13):
and strength, and love myneighbor as myself, and at the
same time celebrate the goodnessof God.
Celebrate the fact that he madeus in his image. And our God,
all through the old testament,he had required celebrations. He
drew and led the people tocelebrate, and he's still doing
it today.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Oh yeah, he commanded feasts. Jesus, whenever he, his
first miracle was what? Takingwater at a wedding and making it
into wine. Right. Over and overand over again, you see Jesus,
he gets criticized by thePharisees, why?
(18:51):
Because he is at a socialgathering, and it's in the
context of that gathering thathe's connecting with those far
from God. Yeah. Now, in amoment, we'll talk about some of
the dangers and pitfalls, butfirst, let's just sit on this a
little bit longer. I think itcan all be summed up by this
phrase, God is a blast.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
He is a blast.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
God is a blast. And the danger of separating your
life where I'm serious about Godand I'm fun over here. I'm
serious on Sundays, and I grillout and have fun on fourth of
July with my buddies. I'mserious on Sundays, and I have
(19:37):
fun at the movies. I'm seriousabout Sunday.
This divided life-
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Terrible.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Where you have failed to incorporate, and some
Christians have said it's unholyto have fun at all. What you do
is you basically, when youbelieve God is the biblical
beatdown, when you believe Godis the cosmic killjoy, then he
is the last place you will gofor any good time. And that is a
(20:04):
dangerous place. We have a younggeneration that is catching that
message from others, and they'regonna go over here and have a
good time. Then they're comingto church and either confess up
and try to get back, or justlive a double life.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yes, Or compartmentalize life, like
you're saying, where, you knowwhat? God touches this part of
my life, but God, I need you toexit or go to a different room
while I partake in whatever itis that I'm doing right over
here. And we're talkingspecifically, you know, about
the church, and this is one ofour seven values, as you said.
But I wanna take a moment. Let'sjust talk for a second to all
(20:38):
the families who are listening,moms and dads, whatever age,
whatever stage.
Let's talk about and maybe thinkof some memories that popped to
your head because I've gottensome popping in mine. The power
of having a culture in your homeof fun. Because if you are a
mom, we have four kids and ithas been the joy of our life to
parent our four children,They're now all entering into
(20:59):
adult world, like young adultworld. We got one teenager, or
rather high schooler left in thehouse. But with that said, you
have to be intentional becauseparenting's hard.
It's one of the hardest things.And what are some memories, and
I'm gonna give one, where in themiddle of the hard, you choose
(21:19):
to have a culture of fun. AndI'm thinking of one about you
and it's You're in gonna theearly just
Speaker 2 (21:25):
go there.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I would tell you in the early days of Keystone
Church, and even when it wasreally hard, I mean, Keystone
started from pretty muchnothing. And there were some
moments, particularly movinginto the furniture store where
you were like, can we even,you're moving into the furniture
store and you're like, can weeven do this financially, right?
There's hard times, you gotpressures at work.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Big risk, big
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Big risk, you've got things at your job or things in
your adult life that arepressure, high pressure. And we
had young children at home andmaybe three at that time, maybe
it's four, but I just rememberyou coming home. And the first
thing you would do is you we hada hallway, you walk in the door
and you just walk down thishallway and then there's the
kitchen and it opens in theliving room. And you would just
(22:09):
lay in the hallway on thecarpet, just lay down on your
back.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Those little munchkins.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
And all four of our little munchkins would crawl and
jump and just get all over you.And you would just lay there and
they were so happy daddy washome and they would laugh and
squeal and you would play withthem. But that is being serious
about having fun. And it's notjust for this one goal of my
pleasure, which that's not awrong thing either we'll talk
(22:35):
about, But it's bigger thanthat. It's a culture of this is
who we are.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well, know, just being transparent, even when our
oldest daughter, Elle, when shegot married, Tyler grew up in a
family that would play games.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Board games, whatever.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And we were never into that. We would go see
movies, we would watch shows,but that was the main form of
our entertainment. Yeah. Go tomovies, watch shows, maybe some
games, basketball games,football games, whatever. That
was really it for us, maybeplaying football in the back
with Beck, sports, you know, butwe were not board game kind of
(23:17):
people, and we went on our firstfamily vacation where Tyler was
Yeah.
You remember this? And we werein Galveston in this one
bedroom, just slammed into thisplace. This wasn't that long
ago. And Tyler was like, Hey,let's play a game. And we're
like, Okay.
(23:38):
No, honestly, I'm the one who'slike, No, I don't want to in my
heart. But I'm like, Let's be agood sport. Let's do it. Come on
Tyler, show us how, show us whatwe're doing here. And we had so
much fun.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So much fun.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And that's where I've always said Tyler made our
family even better.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
But that's one example is just he installed a
little more fun. And that's whatI'd say in a family, fun has to
be intentional and you gottapush yourself sometimes to try
new things.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And to look for the opportunity to laugh. I'm
telling you, sometimes we gottadecide. We're gonna be a family
that laughs. We're gonna be afamily that's warm because
here's the deal, you could havecome home from work and not laid
on that floor and been a coldfather with a lot of stress. I
need a moment, I need to be bymyself.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That's what I was feeling. And I know exactly what
you're talking about. I'vetalked about it many times. And
I mean, it was a high stressseason because we were taking
the biggest leap of our livesafter starting the church.
Starting the church was thefirst, but then this was a big
moment.
And so when I would come in, Ihad a burden on me, but God, the
(24:50):
Holy Spirit was just telling me,just get on that floor and play
with those kids, push. Andthat's where culture is
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Chosen.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Is chosen. It's by definition. You either define
your culture or it's by default.Default, I would have gone and
sat in the chair. Would havedisappeared into TV or Right.
Something like Okay, so that isso important. God is a blast if
you don't predetermine. Now,what does that look like in
church?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So what that could look like is that Critical
article where he basically feelslike you have to choose. And I
do understand. If a church is, Ido wanna acknowledge this, that
sometimes in our attempt toreach others, some, and maybe us
(25:40):
at times, can't confess to thisbecause I don't know that we've
ever done it intentionally, butI wanna be open to that. But in
our effort to reach others,sometimes we made what's called
jump the shark. It's from aHappy Days episode, one of their
last ones where they went toofar.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It's just like too much.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
With Saffanz?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, Fonz was like surfing and then he jumped With
lot the the people. Yeah, know,sorry guys. Where you jumped the
shark, you just, it's like,okay.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Too far.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Too far.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Gratuitous, not
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Gratuitous, too there's no purpose, you know,
and I get that, and I feel that.And honestly, there are things
we did earlier in our churchthat I wouldn't do today. I just
feel a sense of, that's just toomuch, and maybe it's age, I
don't know. But I do believe,and so I do acknowledge that
(26:33):
there's a point where, are youstill the church? Like, are you
doing?
Where is the tie to the thingsof God? Where is the bridge to
the truth? What are you doing?But with that acknowledgement,
okay, with that acknowledgement,and I'm avoiding the whole talk
(26:53):
about attractional church. Me, Iwill say this.
The attractional church isreally a season of church where
we were basically, the churchwas attempting to reach people.
That was the heart. We wannareach people, we wanna reach
people. And so basically just dowhat whatever it takes to reach
people. And I love that heart,and I share the heart.
Reach people with everything yougot. But at times, where we've
(27:19):
come to now is that was largely,that ethic and that thought was
largely done in a culture wherethe thought of church doing
things that spoke the languageof the culture was so different,
because church was a foreignlanguage to the culture. It
really won a lot of people tothe Lord. We're in a culture now
(27:40):
that is really kind of antichurch, and whereas that thrived
in a neutral or even a positivechurch environment. Now what
would have existed all along anddid exist all along and where I
think a lot of the church thatmaybe some that used to be
attraction are kinda comingaround is just the power of God.
(28:02):
I know it sounds crazy, but justhaving the ability for the power
of God. And again, I'm notagainst creativity and all that,
but make sure that there's somepower of God in there, that
there's moments where you areushering in the presence of God.
And I think that's probablywhere the heart, I feel like I'm
(28:23):
rambling.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
You're believing the best if that's the heart. Yeah,
we're believing
Speaker 2 (28:26):
the Yeah, rambling a little bit, but I'm, yeah. But
here's the thing. All that tosummarize and say this, that
where we are.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Where we are is we wanna have moments that are fun.
In And the middle of a service,we may have someone dance, you
know? Or we're gonna have aparty in our plaza, okay? We're
gonna have food trucks, okay?Well, the gospel doesn't need
food trucks, quote unquote.
(28:55):
The gospel doesn't need LEDwalls. The gospel doesn't need a
party on the plaza. You'retricking it up. You're trying to
reach people. The gospel doesn'tneed that guitar solo.
The gospel, and this is thecriticism. Yeah. And I would
say, you're right. Jesus said,hey, if you don't say it, the
rocks are gonna cry out. Thegospel doesn't need an LED wall.
(29:19):
The gospel doesn't need a greatsound system. The gospel doesn't
need a beautiful building. Thegospel doesn't need a party on
the plaza. The gospel doesn'tneed food trucks that weekend.
The gospel doesn't need a candypalooza on the weekend of
Halloween at The your gospeldoesn't need any of that.
But what if some of it is justfun? What if it's just, hey,
(29:41):
we're community?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
And what if it makes God smile?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah. What if we're doing it as spiritual family so
you don't have to go out to thecommunity to do those things?
Hey, you could do it here too.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah. Well, we're created in the image of God and
the same God, as you said, thatpainted the sunset, that painted
the sunrise and this colors inthe sky. We have his stamp of
his image on us as we paint anLED wall, as we pick out
creative graphics. And so what Iwould just say is that when it
comes to our value of we'reserious about having fun, we're
(30:13):
really talking about an attitudeof the heart. We're talking
about a deep value that showsitself in all these different
creative ways.
But when it comes to we'reserious about having fun, we
gotta know God's design.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right. Well, and let me say this before we go there.
There's also fun in our future,and this is important. I've got
a couple of places I wanna takeyou to in the word of God.
Isaiah 20 five:six, he said, Onthis mountain, the Lord of
armies will prepare for all thepeoples a feast.
This is our future, when Godmakes all things new. A feast of
(30:46):
choice meat, a feast with agedwine, Prime cuts of choice meat,
fine vintage wine. Isaiahdoubles down on the meat and the
wine. The meat and the wine.It's good meat.
It's good wine. Zechariahfourteen sixteen. Then all the
survivors from the nations thatcame against Jerusalem will go
(31:06):
up year after year to worshipthe king, the lord of armies,
and to celebrate the festival ofshelters. Wow. So
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Celebrate. Celebrate. Mine.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Mine. Then and then there's in another scripture
where it talks about a child isleading a parade of animals,
it's like a bear and a lion, andit's basically, these predators
are playing with the child. Itsays the child will put his hand
in a snake pit hole and will notbe bitten. The point is our
(31:38):
future is filled with fun andplay, and there's no
contradiction. But you were justheading us down the road.
I wanted to make sure we heardthat.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
That's so good.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
That it's not just now, it's forever. But in the
eternity, we will nail pleasure.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
We will nail pleasure. It will be done
perfectly. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (31:57):
because we'll have jobs to do there too.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
We'll have It'll be perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
No more thorns coming out of the ground and work by
the sweat of our brow. It'll bework. We'll have assignments.
We'll have vision. We'll havefuture.
We'll have purpose.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
But in the today, we live in a broken world.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
We do.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
And in the broken world, you can get pleasure
wrong.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And so when we're elevating pleasure in this
episode, and we're talking aboutthe importance of play, and the
importance of fun, and sometimesit's for the fun of it, and you
need to bring fun into your walkwith the Lord, It's important
though to throw up some speedbumps.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Some caution flags. Yeah. Caution flags. Because in
our pleasure seeking, the Bibleis also full of warnings.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
In our pleasure seeking. And there's a lot of
different categories for that.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, right. And I think as we enter into some of
those categories just to helpyou, and this is really so
important what we're talkingabout here, That it is so
important to, as we go into someof the areas that could be traps
that we can fall into, is toagain understand that we're
serious about having fun. We'retalking about attitudes of the
heart, but we're also talkingabout pleasure and enjoyment.
(33:16):
Those are two different things,and they both are equally a part
of this conversation. And whenwe talk about the pleasures,
that element of enjoying thefun, enjoying the good things,
It starts with understandingthat every good thing comes from
God.
If it's a good thing, if it'struly pure and good, That came
from thing is a gift from Godwho made, the same God who made
(33:38):
the heavenly lights is the sameGod who made that fine wine that
we're gonna get to drink inheaven one day and it's gonna be
the best ever.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Right, same God. And so what are some of the big
gifts that he gives us today?Well, of the things that come to
our mind we can hit on
Speaker 2 (33:51):
is Sex.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Well, let's go there first. It's a gift. It's a gift
from God. And that'll be likemultiple podcasts, but it's a
gift from God, but we wannaenjoy God's gift God's way.
There is a plan that God has forthe pleasure.
And so we're serious abouthaving fun, but we're very
serious about having fun God'sway. And we believe marriage is
(34:15):
between one man and one womanand the covenant sex is to
happen in that marriage, thatcovenant for a lifetime. That's
where sex is supposed to happen.That's the design that God gave
us throughout scripture.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
First Corinthians seven. Yeah. And we'll do a deep
dive on this on another, a wholepodcast on Oh, such good Full
episode on this, but firstCorinthians seven talks about
the power of that sexuality. Itshould be a regular companion in
your marriage. It's a gift fromGod to be enjoyed fully.
And the way that it's to beenjoyed is I give you authority
(34:51):
over my body, you give meauthority over your body, And
together, it's this cool thing.It's the same teaching about
submission and how I am to livein an understanding way with you
or my prayers will be hindered,the Bible says. And you are to
live in a way where you'rethinking about me in submission.
(35:13):
So we are submitting to oneanother, we're thinking of one
another, and that makes its wayinto the bedroom. Yeah.
So some broken ways that sex canbe expressed. Obviously, the big
blinking light is pornography.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Pornography, I believe, is a cancer in our
culture.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
There's no question.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
The pornification of our culture has led to sexual
abuse, the rampant sexual abuse.It's often people who dabbled
with pornography that gotaddicted to pornography, then
that pornography, you begin to,you need more, you need
different, or you were abused,and it caused sexual confusion,
you're broken on the inside.Something has happened, and it's
(35:57):
just messed up.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah. And there's so many different ways that we
break bad when it comes to God'sgift of sex. And I think when we
talk about we're serious abouthaving fun, I think an
overarching help, whether we'retalking about sex or one of the
next things we're about toshare, that there's two litmus
tests, I believe, that are likethe trump card. They're like the
thing that we can go to to makesure, is my fun on the right
(36:21):
path? Or have I veered to adangerous place?
And that is this, as you arehaving that fun, as you are
enjoying that good time, are youat the same time loving the Lord
your God with all your heart,soul, mind, and strength? And
are you loving your neighbor
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Bingo.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
As yourself? Those are the two tests.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
So good.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
And if it can go through that filter and you can
absolutely say, yes, I am. Andby loving God, by the way, he
says in John, I think 15, hesays, if you love me, you'll
keep my commandments. So we'renot loving God when we disobey
his way and his rules. And sothat leads us to, you know, I
think about wine, I think aboutalcohol. It's another very big
one.
(37:00):
And I think it is reallyimpacting the church in some
very destructive ways. But Godhas a design for alcohol.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
He sure does. And this is where I wanna be very,
very clear that there's a lot ofdifferent teachings in the
church about alcohol. On the onehand, there's a teaching that I
grew up with, and that iscomplete and total abstinence.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
And I wanna honor that teaching. I wanna honor
often that teaching ofabstinence. Even my freshman
year of college, I wrote a paperon abstinence from alcohol, and
that's where I was at the time.And with alcohol, though, again,
because the Bible is our truth,I began to dive in, and the
(37:49):
strongest biblical argument forabstinence is that you've made
the choice to abstain. But theBible does give permission to
drink.
The Bible has permission todrink. But with that permission,
again, Jesus' first miracle wastaking wine, I mean, taking
water and making it into wine.Right. We know God does not make
(38:11):
evil substances. Right.
Jesus made a gift to that party.Elsewhere in the Bible, talks
about wine makes the heart glad,and then we just read about our
future, beautiful, well agedwine. All that to say is there's
not a strong biblical argumentthat the Bible says alcohol is
(38:32):
evil, it is to be avoided.There's a stronger biblical
argument if you wanna embraceabstinence that you are either
saying, I wanna live my lifewhere I just don't want that to
be a part of it. That's asubstance, it's too dangerous.
There's too much addiction. Ihave addiction in my family
tree, and that's just somethingI wanna put over there. Just
(38:55):
watch, I don't want that in mylife.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
There's freedom for this.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
There's freedom for you to do that. Another, so
that's a choice from strength,where you're saying, I just
don't want that temptation, Idon't want that in my life, I
don't need it. I don't like it.I don't care. Yeah.
That's fantastic. The secondcategory of abstinence would be
I can't. That's where you cannotdo alcohol God's way.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Could be a genetic predisposition. It could be
hereditary. It could be that youhave abused it in your life, and
your body has responded in a waythat you can't stop.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
And that would be where, biblically, you're in the
category of the weaker brothercategory in scripture, where
it's like, this is something,back then, it would have been, I
can't eat meat offered to idols.I can't do it. It bruises my
conscience. I cannot do it. AndPaul said, well, I have the
freedom to do it, but I won't doit with you because you're my
weaker brother, and I wanna lovemy weaker brother.
(39:52):
The point of that is, hey, weall have We blind are all weaker
brothers and sisters. If alcoholis your area, you know, then you
have great biblical grounding tosay, I'm going to abstain. There
are also those who would say, Iwanna enjoy God's gift, as
prescribed in the Bible, God'sway. And when we enjoy God's
(40:15):
gift God's way, there's a phrasethat you use that we have used
in all areas of our life, andthat would be in sex, that would
be in the pleasure of chocolateand desserts. And it would be in
the
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Ice cream.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Ice cream and it would be in the area of alcohol
and that is a plan, God's plan.But a plan for the pleasure.
Yeah. And just the warning, thewarnings are all over scripture
about alcohol and the dangers ofalcohol. Yeah.
The warnings are all overscripture about drinking past to
where you're buzzing, you'reincapacitated. And I think that
(40:54):
I'm convinced that a lot ofpeople, what we call social
drinking, you're actually, ifyou were to take your blood
alcohol content, you are farbeyond where you think you are.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
And so really, I think for the Christ follower to
drink like the world drinks isnot gonna work for you. Right.
You gotta have a better plan foryour pleasure. You gotta treat
it as a gift from God if you'regoing to drink, but you also
have to recognize the dangers ofit.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah. And that's why, I think that's part of the why
we say we are serious
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
About having fun. Even that phrase has multiple
layers of meaning. We're seriousbecause we believe God created
fun and the church should befun. God's a blast, the church
should be a blast too. But we'realso serious because we know the
pitfalls because of our sin andour sin nature and the tug of
desires that take us down adangerous and destructive path.
We're very serious that our funglorifies God, that it's in his
(41:48):
image and by his design. Andwhen you lead and you experience
a church that values this,together, it becomes a really
joyful place. And it's not allrainbows and unicorns where we
pretend like life's not hard.Life is hard and it hits us all,
but how beautiful for God'ssweet relief of laughter, of
dancing, of enjoying mealstogether, of having a blast
(42:11):
together. And as we walk thisjourney in the middle of it all,
we see the goodness of God inthe land of the living.
So we are serious.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
And I'd wrap it up by saying, you know, again, another
scripture I love is, The joy ofthe Lord is my strength. The joy
of the Lord. And we, asChristians, need to bring joy
back. And I think it'll bring awhole lot more strength, and
it'll teach the world what itlooks like to suffer well with
(42:41):
joy. You know, you can sufferand still have joy.
It's not delirious. But alsofeasting needs fasting.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah. It's rhythm.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
It's important to have that rhythm of feast and
fast, feast and fast. And sowe'd encourage you that as
you're exploring this for yourlife, man, just turn on your
brain. Yeah. Open up your Bible,be prayerful. Yeah.
And let's enjoy life, and let'sdo it God's way. We're serious
(43:14):
about having fun.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
We're serious about having fun.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Alright. Thanks for joining us for this episode of
The Overflow with Brandon andSusan. And we're excited to
tackle more of these issues,maybe even tackle some of the
things we brought up today inmore depth with more time. We
can't wait to do that. Love youguys and we'll see you next
time.
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