Can One Sentence Change Everything? Neil Gordon on Story, Truth & Communication

Episode Transcript
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Kellie (00:03):
What if one sentence had the power to change everything?
Today's guest has built hislife's work around that idea.
Neil Gordon is a communicationstrategist to CEOs, authors, and
TED speakers.
His fable, The Most PowerfulSentence of All Time, highlights
what he calls the silverbullet, the one sentence that
inspires action and helps peoplespeak with clarity and

(00:25):
conviction.
He even inspired the coremessage of the PIG.
Hearing the stories of othershelps us create a more
meaningful connection to ourown.

Erin (00:34):
But like many of us, Neil discovered his during a chapter
of deep loss.
After his father passed andduring the isolation of the
pandemic, he found himselfrethinking his story, his words,
even the man he wanted tobecome.
And that makes today'sconversation so meaningful.
This isn't about messaging orspeaking.
It's about the words we choosein the moments that matter most.

(00:56):
Today we talk aboutstorytelling, empathy, truth,
and how one powerful sentence,the right sentence, can
transform everything.

Kellie (01:04):
Welcome to the PIG, where we explore life, love,
loss, and legacy through realconversations and meaningful
stories with purpose, intention,and gratitude.
We're Kellie and Erin, sisters,best friends, sometimes polar
opposites, but always deeplyconnected by the life and love
of the woman who taught us to bewise with our words, our mother

(01:25):
Marsha.
Neil.

Neil (01:31):
Kellie.

Kellie (01:33):
This is really a special treat for me because our
history goes back to, gosh, Iwant to say it has to be 2013,
2014.

Neil (01:45):
Yeah, it was definitely, it was definitely in that
mid-2010s time period.
Sure.

Kellie (01:52):
Yeah.
I, you know, I was writing anovel and I was working with an
editor, and it's still at thesurface, it's right here, you
know, the coffee house effect.
And that book will get written,but I had to go on a series of
life journeys in order to finishthat book.
And you know everything thatthat book is about and the

(02:14):
themes.
And I remember I was workingwith that editor, and we finally
reached a point where I knewthat she wasn't the right person
for me for this book, that Iwanted to write it in the style
of books like The Alchemist orThe Traveler's Gift, uh, The Go
Giver.
And she helped me jump onlineand she isolated two or three

(02:39):
people that she would recommend.
And you were on that list.
And I wrote to you and I toldyou exactly what I was kind of
after.
And you said, Wow, well, that'sa coincidence because of your
connection with the go-giver.

Neil (02:53):
Right, right.

Kellie (02:54):
And so we started working together.

Neil (02:57):
Yeah, and so so that our listeners know it's kind of a
peripheral connection to thego-giver, admittedly, but I was
an editor, a low-level editor atPenguin years ago.
And toward the end of my timethere in 2007, an agent sent me
the Go Giver on submission.
And I was almost the acquiringeditor of that book.

(03:20):
It's just that back then atPenguin, this is prior to the
merger with Random House, weweren't allowed to bid against
other divisions at the company.
And so only one division couldstep up and do it.
So it was out of my handsbecause they all worked it out
and figured out that portfolio,the division that did wind up
acquiring it, was going to bethe one that put in a bid.

(03:40):
And I left my job there notlong after that, actually.
So I never got to positionmyself as the guy who acquires
fables and parables kind ofthing, but instead decided many
years later to write one.
So there you go.

Kellie (03:53):
Well, we made an instant connection, and I remember
saying to you when you were wewere talking about what my idea
was, you know, fab I wanted towrite it in that fable and
parable style.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Right.

Kellie (04:05):
And I said, to me, the theme of this book is the
greatest lessons we have toteach others are the very ones
we must also learn ourselves,which was a quote from our
mother.
And that really kind ofsolidified that connection.
I remember you just grabbed ahold of that, like, oh, that's
really it.

Neil (04:24):
Right.

Kellie (04:25):
So we started working together.
We have worked together indifferent ways over the years.
You've helped me with speechesand keynotes, and we've had a
great time.
And then when you wrote yourown fable, which by the way,
John David Mann said, who is theco-author of The Go Giver,
right?
The most engaging, illuminatingfable I've read in a long, long

(04:48):
time.
The most powerful sentence ofall time.
And I loved being on your ARCteam.
I felt like that was such anhonor.
And that it was such greatwork.
And it was right at the timethat you were offering that
workshop to those of us thatwere on that team that Erin and
I were beginning to put the ideaof the podcast together.

Neil (05:13):
Right.
Right.

Kellie (05:14):
And so part of our work in that group, and I'm just
we're celebrating you and howmuch you've actually helped us
get to here was the assignmentthat you said, okay, think about
something you're doing rightnow, and we're gonna write your
most powerful sentence for thatproject.

Neil (05:32):
Right, right.

Kellie (05:33):
And I wrote, "Hearing the stories of others helps us
create a meaningful connectionto our own" and you said, "Add
the word more." So we added theword more, and that's our
tagline.
So I feel like we've come fullcircle.

Neil (05:50):
Yeah, I have a new and I have a new career, just telling
people anywhere just to add theword more to things, right?

Kellie (05:57):
So, anyhow, I just wanted to open with just
recognizing that, celebratingyou.
I have an enormous amount ofgratitude in my heart for all
the work that we've done overthe past decade.
And I know there's more to comein the future.
So thank you for being heretoday with us and sharing your

(06:18):
life journey and your story,which ultimately ended up
becoming this beautiful littlefable that I hope everybody goes
out and buys and purchasesbecause it's so impactful to be
able to develop a sentence likea mission statement that really
just kind of defines your life,but also helps you be more

(06:42):
persuasive in yourcommunications with others, both
personally and professionally.
So I'm really looking forwardto this conversation today.

Neil (06:51):
Thank you so much, Kellie.
And I just want to point out,especially given the central
significance of the themesaround your mom and her impact
on the both of you, how she wasthinking in terms of the spirit
of that persuasion techniquethat is the centerpiece of that
of the book.
She was already thinking inthose terms.
And then when you were puttingtogether the concepts around the

(07:11):
coffee house effect, that herimpact on you just becomes a
great example that I'm not justI'm not just feeding everyone a
line that this kind of sentenceis really good.
It's like that's a living,breathing example of that
technique and effect.
So it's just it's great to seehow it all comes together.

Kellie (07:28):
Well, she was pretty innovative.
So it doesn't surprise Erin andI at all that you would
actually have that reflection.
So let's dive in.
Neil, welcome to the PIG.

Neil (07:40):
Thank you so much.
It's so great to be here.

Kellie (07:43):
I think it would be great to start with what the
real turning point was for you.
Maybe you can share some ofyour background and history.
We heard a little bit aboutPenguin, but you were born in
New York.
That's where your family lived.
And when you and I met, youwere out in LA.
You're back in New York now.
So let's just that big turningpoint.

(08:03):
I know your dad passed in 2019,and that just kind of exploded
everything inside of Neil in alot of different ways.

Neil (08:12):
Yeah.
So finding a concise way to sumeverything up is admittedly for
me a bit of a task.
However, I can look at itthrough the lens of my expertise
around communication andpersuasion didn't come from
always being a bookworm anddidn't come from always being a
great communicator.
It came from a lack of thosecapacities and an awkwardness as

(08:34):
a child and coming from ahousehold where there was
screaming and yelling every day.
And it just my my work today, Itend to think of it as a 180
from the environment I grew upin.
It's like, how can we usecommunication not as a weapon
but an act of service?
And with that said, my father'spassing in 2019 wound up being

(08:59):
pretty significant because, in away, here's what I remember.
When when I was about 18, Ifelt I was sort of coming out of
my shell a little bit becausewhen are so many of us when we
become 14, 15, 16, we withdraw.
We don't want to talk toadults, right?
And the tendency for me wasjust to retreat.

(09:20):
This is in the early 90s withGame Boys and stuff, and I just
wanted to do my thing and nottalk to anyone.
But then by 18, we had a uhbirthday party, I think, with
friends of the family, and I wasthere talking to people, and I
felt very good about coming outof my shell.
And my dad pulls me aside thatnight after we got home.
He said, Son, every time Ioverheard you in a conversation,

(09:41):
you were doing all of thetalking.
And that hit me like a gut,like a gut punch.
It didn't feel good to thinkthat I was that guy, and that
not that I just changedeverything all right away, but
over the years, I which is theirony here is that being a guest
on your podcast, you both areasking me questions and I'm

(10:02):
doing a lot of the talking.
But so much of my life I as anadult, I've looked to ask more
questions and ask people toshare their thoughts or tell me
about what they do or what haveyou.
Point is that that became theorigin story of what I came to
embody in my work, which is thateffective communication values

(10:23):
the recipient over the sender.

Kellie (10:26):
Powerful.

Erin (10:27):
I love that.

Neil (10:28):
Yeah.
Make whatever you say, whetherit's in conversation or it's the
content you create, like thebooks and the speeches and
whatnot that you put out intothe world, make that into
something that has value forothers.
And how can you make decisionsand choices that are in service
of that ideal?
And fast forward, I mean, Ideveloped a lot of stuff like
the basis of the book, thetechnique that I call a silver

(10:50):
bullet, the thing that definesthe coffee house effect and
other things we've talked about.
That had already come up.
And my dad was always mycheerleader.
He he was the one person on theplanet who was actually
interested in what I do.
The only time I someone's everinterested in what I do is when
I would talk to my dad about itor when I'm on a podcast.

(11:11):
So maybe that's why I makepodcast appearances.
People are so lovely, they'reasking me questions and stuff
about my job.
And I'm like, well, cool.
That's I'll take it.
Anyway, my my point is thatlosing him was significant on
many levels, but not only did Ilose my cheerleader, it happened

(11:31):
at a time when in the late inlate 2019, I had a lot, a lot of
momentum.
It was a different timeadvertising through the meta
platform, and people were a lotless averse to taking risks and
stuff.
And then the pandemic happened,and that really shattered a
lot.
Plus, I was doing stuff aroundpublic speaking, and there was

(11:52):
just wild uncertainty in thepublic speaking world, as I'm
sure you both remember.
And so, with that said, I kindof swept a lot of my grief under
the rug because I had so muchto do going into 2020.
And then a couple of monthslater, when that all fell apart
and I was by myself in thisapartment in LA, I just spent

(12:15):
the next six months crying myeyes out, frankly.
Sometimes like three or fourepisodes in a week, sometimes
three or four episodes in a day.
And it was just a lot, a lot ofpurging.
But this is significant becausein the years leading up to
that, I wasn't crying almost atall.
I cried a lot as a kid, as alittle kid.
That little kid in first gradewho cried all the time.

(12:37):
That was me.

Erin (12:38):
Right.

Neil (12:38):
Oh, that was you too, Kellie?

Kellie (12:40):
Oh, yes.
I was the elementary schoolcrybaby.
That was literally my nickname.

Neil (12:45):
Oh, it was your actually your name?

Kellie (12:47):
It was, yeah.
I was well known at AppletonElementary School as the
school crybaby.
I've always worn my emotionson my sleeve.

Neil (12:56):
Yeah.
Well, and I in a way, I'm kindof envious that you said always,
because that wasn't the case.
I shut that down when I wasabout 12 or 13.
It just became too humiliating.
And it took until my early 40sto start finding it again.
I'm still working on it, butI'm much more fluid of a crier

(13:16):
now than I was even 10 yearsago.
With all that said, losing myfather became a really powerful
catalyst for reintegrating thatpart of myself.
And it's concurrent with a lotof healing, a lot of therapy,
and some ketamine-assisted bodywork.
Like it, yeah, I've been goingall in on finding this stuff.

Erin (13:37):
Yeah.

Neil (13:38):
So there's no doubt that in the themes of loss and
legacy, as you talk about it onthis podcast, that yeah, his
impact on me was undeniablysignificant.

Kellie (13:49):
What do you think really shut down that part of you that
felt like you could expressyour emotions as a teenager?
Was it being a boy?
You know, Marcus and I talkabout this a lot because and we
grew up farm kids, so I actuallyhad some ram ramifications for
crying as much as I did andwearing my emotions on my

(14:11):
sleeves.
You know, pull yourself up byyour bootstraps.
I'll give you something to cryabout.
Was it that or was it somethingdifferent?

Neil (14:20):
I can tell you the exact day it happened.
Sixth grade, it was November,and I was just in a funky mood
that day.
And this is this was in thesixth grade that was in an
elementary school, not a middleschool.
We were the oldest year in theschool, and we still went up to
recess every day.
But by sixth grade, it was morejust some kids played

(14:42):
basketball, and other kids justkind of hung out, sat on the
swings with a little bit ofmalaise and all that.
And other kids like me wouldjust kind of wander around not
doing much, and that's how thekind of day I was, and I wasn't
near my friends, and I saidsomething about how my stomach
was feeling bad, and just kindof used that as an excuse to go

(15:04):
off on my own.
And then as we were returningto the building, there were
these two kids named Mike, bothof them named Mike, and a lot of
Mike's that I grew up with.
I Erin, you might have youmight have experienced that at
that time period too, because Ithink we're about the same age,
and it was just yeah, it waskind of bizarre how everyone was

(15:24):
named Mike.

Kellie (15:25):
Well, Erin was gonna be John Michael or Michael John,
and her middle name'sMichelle...

Erin (15:35):
So funny.

Neil (15:36):
All right, and then there's actually people like
there's women in like the southwho are named Michael, like it's
a it's a women's name in someparts of the country.
It's just funny to me.
Anyway, so one of the two micsjust came up to me at the end of
recess and said, Hey Neil,how's your stomach?
And he just kind of playfullyjabbed me in the stomach, which

(15:56):
kind of thinking about it, thatkind of was a dick move.
But yeah, anyway, I don't knowwhy, but it was just the exact
not the wrong kind of attentionthat I wanted at that point.
And for whatever reason, I juststarted crying.
I don't know to this day, Idon't know why that was my
reaction.
And then the other mic, not theone who had jabbed me, but the

(16:18):
other one who I had beenfriendly with since second
grade, just completelymercurial, complete 180.
He just became the meanest,nastiest kid, just on a dime.
My sense is that he was alreadypretty tired of me because at
that age, becoming cool or notcool was a very clear dividing
line socially.

(16:38):
There was a like by sixthgrade, we're developing that
social caste system that playsout in junior high and high
school.
And I think on some level, hedidn't want to be associated
with someone who wasn't cool.
However, that gave him theexcuse, and the rest of the year
he was horrible.
And there were also a few otherkids in that year who were
bullies, and I didn't understandthat it wasn't safe to be

(17:03):
around those kids.
Like I was still, I don't knowif you both remember this, but
first, second, third grade, youwere friends with whoever.
You were just friends with thekids around you.
It didn't matter how you showedup, and all of a sudden it
mattered, and it took me monthsto realize that I wasn't
supposed to be around them.
And so, you know, there was oneof the kids, he was bigger, he

(17:23):
just kind of picked up.
I was a little kid, he justkind of threw me, picked me up
and threw me on the ground andstuff.
It was terrible.
The larger point there, becausewe all have our bullying
stories, is that uh cryingwasn't safe anymore.
It didn't end completely thatday, but that was the beginning
of the end.
That was when it was very clearthat feeling something was not

(17:45):
okay.
Because sixth grade is arguablyit's sixth grade and seventh
grade are in competition for theworst year of my life.
And it wasn't anything otherthan kids are just jerks when
they're 12.
But but that that wasn't clearto me when I was 12 myself.

Erin (18:02):
Yeah, I think that that is the age that we start being
aware of how others perceive us.
I would I would venture to saythat that's about the age when
we start to start being able torecognize the judgment of
others.

Neil (18:21):
Yeah.
And that's a tough place.
Yeah, it's a tough place.
And think about what the kidsgo through now.
If they have smartphones, theyare exposed not just to the few
kids in their class, buteveryone everywhere.

Erin (18:33):
Yeah.
I think about that all thetime.
Can you imagine?
I mean, I'm so grateful for alot of reasons that there was
not social media when we grewup.
But now thinking about allthese things that we're talking
about, right?
Even as simple as that, thebullying, the judgment, and all

(18:54):
of that.
What these kids face now withthe introduction of technology
and fueling that is it'sfrightening, quite honestly.

Neil (19:05):
It really is.
And it really doesn't seem likethere's a very deliberate set
of solutions being put out thereto somehow steer this away and
whatnot.
It's funny, I have thissolution that I've just come up
with in how I handle trollsbecause I post on social media
and I up until recently I didn'tdo it very consistently.

(19:26):
But in July, I just decided I'mjust gonna do this every day.
I'm gonna do TikTok and YouTubeand Instagram and Facebook and
LinkedIn.
Thank you, LinkedIn, forgetting me 19 whole impressions
on the videos that TikTok givesme 50,000, but I digress.
With that said, people areabsolutely committed to being
mean and they're being trolls.

(19:47):
And all I ever really knew todo before was ignore them and
maybe even hide them if theplatform allowed me to do that.
But I realized recently I had awonderful solution, or what I
deem to be wonderful, is whensomeone says something.
Something really mean andtrolls my content.
I thank them for boosting thealgorithm because interacting on
with comments is actually goodfor the algorithm.

(20:08):
So, and I remember most of themjust ignore they don't respond
again because they don't knowhow to even process such a
positive response to their meanspiritness.
But this one guy just wrote meand said something like he's
like, I am going to activelytell people not to subscribe to
this channel, right?
I'm just giving public speakingtips.
There's nothing wrong with whatI'm doing, but he was that

(20:30):
committed.
And I said, Oh, thank you somuch.
Your comment is really going tohelp the algorithm.
And then he he wrote back, Noproblem, small fry.
Like he was that committed tobeing mean, even when I was
clearly not going to be affectedby it.
And it just gives us a profounddemonstration of how what

(20:52):
lengths people will go throughto be mean for the sake of
itself.

Kellie (20:55):
Yeah.
And you know, for me, thatcomes from such a place of
internal hurt.
I was thinking as you two weresharing your dialogue, that that
12 and 13, that junior high,middle school age, because we
were all part of that shift,right?
From junior high to middleschool, being the oldest kids to
the youngest kids in theschool, is such a time of

(21:17):
identity.
You know, I becoming your ownauthentic self.
And I think that that has beenso disrupted.

Neil (21:26):
Yeah.

Kellie (21:27):
Which is re ally sad by a lot of factors, but especially
by social media, to the pointwhere I see adults questioning
who they are, their ownidentity, what value they bring
to the world, simply becausesocial media or the trolls and
the mean people have a place togo and beat people up for no

(21:51):
reason.
That is their playground.

Neil (21:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there is there is like wehad playground monitors.

Kellie (21:59):
Right.
I got into one that same year.
One of the bullies just starteda fight with me.
It was the only time I ever gotanything close to a fight.
It wasn't much of a fight.
And they put us on X's and wehad to stand on the X's for the
rest of the recess for fighting.
And I I cried.
The funny thing is, because Istood up to him, he started
consoling me and telling me whata good job I did standing up

(22:20):
for myself.
I people are weird.
Anyway, that whole moment is agreat example of like in real
life, if you're doing this inreal time in with another human
in front of you, that's going tobe so much more emotionally
significant for all partiesinvolved.
But tearing into each other onsocial media doesn't mean
anything.

(22:40):
It just becomes thismean-spiritedness for the sake
of itself.
And there's no standing on an Xand consoling the person who
stood up to you, kind of thing.

Erin (22:49):
Right.
Well, yeah.
And going back to it's so funnywhat you guys were just talking
about about the playgroundbecause it is almost as hard as
it was in dealing with bulliesand all of that.
It's where people just kind of,and especially boys, I know
that's a generalization, but itfelt like it was always the boys

(23:09):
who were more rough and tumbleand you know, kind of roughen
each other up on the playgroundor having these fights.
And that was a kind ofestablished this pecking order,
right?
And so, you know, you couldkind of beat the crap out of
each other and then be like,good fight, you know, and and
walk away.

(23:30):
And through that develop somelevel of appreciation or
acknowledgement of the otherperson.
And we don't have that anymore,right?
And people are these kind ofkeyboard warriors where they can
say anything they want online.
They don't have to back it upwith anything, they don't have
to look that person in the eyesand and have any sort of

(23:54):
accountability for what they'redoing, what they're saying, all
of that.
And so it gives people thisinflated ego and well, I'll show
you.
Click, click, click, click,click, click, click, click,
click, you know, on theirkeyboard.
And it doesn't solve anyproblems, it doesn't do anything
except people are just mean forthe sake of being mean, and

(24:17):
there's really no ramificationsfor it, there's no
accountability for it.

Neil (24:22):
Other than yeah, it just reinforces our own suffering.
Sorry, Kellie.

Kellie (24:26):
Yeah, no, don't apologize.
Have you both heard whatAustralia just did?

Neil (24:30):
I've not heard it yet.
No.

Kellie (24:31):
No.
Australia has passed a law thatbans children under 16 from
creating their own social mediaaccounts.
It was it's intended to protectchildren's mental health by
reducing exposure tocyberbullying and harmful
content.
Exactly what we're talkingabout.
I just heard about this theother night.

(24:52):
Marcus shared that with me, soI looked it up real quick.

Neil (24:55):
It's so interesting.
Go Australia.
Well, it's interesting because one of my favorite
comedians is from Australia, andhe tells a story in a very
famous routine from about 10 or12 years ago.
It was all about gun control.
And he talks about how in the90s, in a place in Australia
called Port Arthur, there wasthis huge massacre, and they

(25:18):
said, No more guns, and they'relike, All right, and they
stopped having all the massacresand stuff like that.
And so it's interesting thatAustralia, with admittedly being
a very different country with amuch smaller population and all
of that, they seem to have arecurring theme of just having a

(25:39):
blanket, no more of this kindof thing.
And whether they're successfulregulations or not, or policies
or not, I I don't presume toknow.
But it's it's interesting thethe cultural difference there
because that would be verydifficult to pull off, I think,
in America.

Kellie (25:54):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Neil (25:56):
Yeah.

Kellie (25:57):
So circling back from loss to language, of course.
Your dad passed.
I actually remember you and Iwere in touch.
Um, we were working on someprojects, I think, together
during that time, or at leastcorresponding.
We've stayed in touch all theseyears pretty closely, and um,
that was a big momentum shiftfor you.

Neil (26:20):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's it's interestingwhen I was January and February
of 2020 went very well.
They're historically my bestmonths business-wise, and then
March started out like that, andthen of course by mid-month
everything changed.
Yeah, COVID.
Yeah, what was interesting wasthat I was growing enough where

(26:40):
I felt like I had the potentialto do a traditional book deal.
Like I was going to grow myaudience to be large enough
where that would be a viableproject for some publishers.
And coming from book publishingand being a acquisitions editor
once upon a time, I understoodwhat it took to be seen as a

(27:01):
viable author in that regard.
And so I rented an Airbnbbefore the lockdown started.
And so I could work on a bookproposal, and it was gonna be a
standard how-to book on how tocreate basically how to use this
concept of a silver bullet in anumber of different ways, and
it had the potential to be agood book.

(27:21):
I mean, I am a bookcollaborator as part of my
trade, so I was gonna ensurethat it was high quality.
And I remember the Airbnbbooking was for right after
lockdown started.
So I remember never seeing thehosts, and the whole thing felt
weird and unsafe because thiswas after we were supposed to be
social distancing andsheltering in place and all

(27:42):
that, but I still created it,but then I came back and I was
like, I don't think this isgonna fly anymore, kind of
thing.
Because I was just trying tofigure out how to keep moving
forward in other ways.
So I put that project aside,and I'm pretty sure that had
what I described to you bothearlier about taking the space
to grieve and and processeverything and start doing some

(28:04):
deeper healing, had that nothappened, I probably wouldn't
have chosen to create a fable.
It probably it was somethinggoing as far back as we've ever
we've known each other, Kellie.
I think that was on my mind aswell in some way, and using the
act of fiction to teachsomething.
Because I I had loved The GoGiver, I had loved The
Alchemist, all of those otherbooks.

(28:26):
And I I'm pretty sure that if Ihad just continued on the path
that I was on in 2020, as muchas it was nice to have all that
momentum, it would have beencertainly a less meaningful
expression of the work.
And so that winds up being tome what was professionally most
significant about that time.

Kellie (29:35):
And you made a move, a big move during this time too,
didn't you?
Is this when you made the moveto new back to New York?

Neil (29:42):
Yeah, early 21.
Yeah.
So we were still technically inlockdown by that point before
the world started opening upagain.
And in 21, what's interestingis I started writing a parable
in the spirit of this wholething that was, I don't know if
it ever would have hadpotential, but I remember
working on the notes for thatfor a good seven or eight

(30:06):
months.
And then I was gonna go on thisentrepreneurial trip in early
November of 21.
And then I got COVID and Icouldn't go, but I was mostly
feeling my symptoms werebasically resolved by the time
the trip happened, and I hadblocked out two weeks from my
schedule to go on this trip, andthen I wrote a draft in four

(30:28):
days.
I thought it was gonna take metwo weeks just to get halfway
through a draft, but it turnedout I just needed four days to
write the whole thing, and thenI put it aside, and then I did a
day-long therapy session thefollowing January, like two
months later.
And what's interesting to me isthat some part of me knew that
that was a nice attempt, but notactually all that emotionally

(30:51):
significant to me.
It wasn't really an extensionof myself, and I was just trying
to find clever nudge nudge winkway wink ways of just kind of
referencing certain parts of mylife, but doing something that
even felt remotelyautobiographical just didn't
feel safe.
And yet, what people who readthe book will soon find out is

(31:12):
that a large part of the storyhas to do with this ride share
driver helping this smallbusiness owner to better
position her stuff for this bigpitch for her dream client.
And it starts with theirconversation in the car ride to
the airport, where he's drivingher to the airport and just
helps her to find this silverbullet concept for her company,

(31:34):
which is a loose interpretationof what actually happened in the
mid-2010s.
Around the time I actually metyou, Kellie.
I was moonlighting driving forlift.
I just wasn't able to make aviable living back then doing
this stuff.
I didn't know anything aboutmarketing back then.
And there was some driving inthe original version of the
parable, but it the driverdidn't need the job, he was just

(31:54):
doing it as a socialexperiment.
Anyway, it wasn't the worstthing ever, but it just really
wasn't what the book was meantto be.
And so I have this day-longtherapy session in that January,
and my therapist was like, Whydon't you try writing this other
concept?
It seems important to you.
And if you don't like it, youcan go back to the other one or
try something different instead.
And so within a couple of daysof that session, I started on

(32:17):
the book that it actually cameto be.
Here's what it is I was tooafraid to experience pain, which
is so much is an issue for somany of us.

Kellie (32:33):
Yes.

Neil (32:34):
And so I insulated myself from the concept of the book
because if people rejected it,it would be too close to
rejecting me, and that would betoo painful.
And here we go.
So that's how all of thatemotional stuff, for lack of a
more precise and technical term,wound up giving birth to what

(32:54):
the book ultimately became.

Erin (32:57):
Wow, it's such a lesson in vulnerability and what we open
ourselves up to, you know, whatwe create space for.
And it's wild just to to listento you and to hear how all of

(33:17):
those things intersected eachother, the loss, but then that
vulnerable space, and how thataffects even the thinking, not
even just the act of writing,but even just being able to how
do I want to word this?
Just being able to, yeah, justthe the whole creative process,
I guess.
Conceptualizing it.

(33:38):
Yeah, yeah, from thought topaper, you know, just that whole
process.
And it's fascinating, actually.

Kellie (33:48):
Well, and I Neil, you and I know each other really
well.
And the book that I stillintend to write, man, that
really kind of was an arrow tothe forehead when you said that.
Because even working on thispodcast, this project with Erin,
I mean, this is vulnerable.

(34:08):
It is authentic, it is raw.
Like we are opening up ourhearts and our emotions and our
experiences and our childhoodand our adulthood, you know, to
people.
And to and to just put thatkind of work out there that's
steeped in your own experienceis vulnerable.
And the coffee house effects,same thing.

(34:30):
I mean, that's based on reallife experience.
And again, had to have moreexperience to get to the point
of finishing it.
But the concept of working on aproject and putting it out to
the masses and being afraid toface the rejection, because what
does that mean about me?

Neil (34:49):
Yeah.

Kellie (34:50):
Is something at least the three of us here have all
faced.
And I would venture to say thatprobably a lot of people in the
world have faced that, but noteven recognized that that's
actually maybe what's holdingthem back.

Erin (35:04):
Absolutely.
And how that ties into what wewere just talking about about
kind of the internet trolls.

Neil (35:10):
I was about to say, right?

Erin (35:13):
And how that is absolutely less of a reflection about us
and a true reflection of them.
That's a yeah, you know, that'sa I always say that's a YP, not
an MP.
That's a you problem, not a meproblem.
Yeah, right.
And so, man, that in and ofitself is a fascinating study on

(35:38):
human behavior, right, Kellie?

Kellie (35:41):
Right, yeah!

Neil (35:42):
Yeah, to me, I find it inevitable that there are going
to be mean people doing meanthings no matter what we do.
And on the one hand, we canself-regulate in the way that we
say, Yeah, that's a youproblem, not a me problem, like
you said.
And more tactically, maybethere's a way we can get their
mean-spiritedness to boost ouralgorithm, right?

(36:04):
It's like I mean, I I I makethat reference in half jest, but
only in half jest, because thetruth is that people could be
mean, and maybe there's a way touse it so that we can alchemize
that energy a bit and turn itinto something less hateful,
yes, and and all of that.
And if we're gonna putsomething out into the world, we

(36:27):
can have some curiosity aboutall right, so when the mean
stuff comes, how can I show upand how can I use it in some
way?
And it's not I'm not sayingit's easy, but it certainly
feels possible.

Erin (36:40):
I completely agree.
And I was just going toreference our last interview,
our last episode that we didwith Rich Boerner.
He said the exact same thing.
He talked about kindnessbeginning with curiosity.
And it was such a profoundstatement.

(37:01):
And so I love that you justsaid essentially the same thing.
That that spirit of curiosityis so critically important.

Neil (37:11):
Yeah, and and by the way, Erin, that winds up actually
being a great example of thevery thing that we've been
talking about with the silverbullet.
When you can take a simpleaction and it leads to a simple
outcome, it's just veryempowering.
And so you can just say thatcuriosity leads to kindness or
that curious that kindnessbegins in curiosity.

(37:31):
It's just a simple idea.
And the way you were able tointegrate that and recall that
from the previous episode andbring it right up to the surface
here is a good example of itsstickiness and a good example of
the intrinsic value of that.
So, I mean, that's kind of oneof the pitfalls of having a

(37:52):
conversation with me, especiallyin a professional space, is I'm
invariably going to say,There's a silver bullet because
it just has been showing up for2,500 years, and yet people
don't really take advantage ofit as an act of persuasion.

Kellie (38:06):
Can we talk about that?
Because as we've been havingthis conversation, I was
thinking about Otto and Barbara,the characters in the book.

Neil (38:14):
In the book, yeah.

Kellie (38:15):
Otto was vulnerable enough to share his perspective
and opinion, and Barbara wascurious enough to actually
absorb it and take it in.
And I love in the book that youreally do talk about the
history of the silver bulletconcept, something that you and

(38:37):
I worked on way back when wewere working.
You know, what's the silverbullet of this speech?
What's the silver bullet ofthis presentation?
What's the silver bullet ofthis writing?
And that it's been around for avery, very, very long time.
You've just packaged it in anew, different, and innovative
way for this time in ourculture, in our society.

Neil (38:59):
Well, do you remember about 20 years ago when The
Secret came out as a as a film?
It was, and then the book cameout right after, right?
And everyone was in thispersonal growth space was
talking about the secret.
And the way that they werepositioning the law of
attraction was this age-oldthing when looking back, it felt
like it was.

(39:19):
I mean, I'm sure that the lawof attraction in some form or
another worked and was like wasa thing for so long.
And a lot of it felt likepackaging, right?
A lot of it felt like how to.
I mean, the woman who actuallydid the secret actually
appropriated it from EstherHicks kind of thing and all of

(39:40):
that.
And so this was this was likestraight up a packaging job, not
even a creation job, right?
And I'm I felt a little jadedand cynical about things back
then.
This is prior to meunderstanding what the silver
bullet is, of course.
And I felt a little skittisharound the idea that we're
talking about something that'sbeen around a long time, kind of
thing.
Because it feels like it couldbe a packaging spin kind of

(40:03):
thing.
But the truth is that I mean,when you look at ancient texts,
these authors are saying silverbullets.
Right.
And you could go on toGoodreads and look at the most
voted quotes of these ancientthinkers and stuff.
And they're almost always asilver bullet.
So it's just kind of funny thatit really is this thing that's
been around for thousands ofyears.
And it's just a matter of amore conscientious communicator

(40:26):
drawing on that and using it tobe more persuasive in their
work.

Kellie (40:30):
Which kind of goes back to the comment that you made
when we were opening the show,and I shared the greatest
lessons we have to teach othersare the very ones we must also
learn ourselves and our motherin the 80s and 90s, kind of
capturing language in that way.
And when I think of back abouta lot of the things that we were
taught as kids, they werepackaged kind of like a silver

(40:53):
bullet.
One of them was capiche.
A one-word silver bullet.

Neil (41:00):
Yeah, there you go.
There you go.
Yeah.
I've only I've only ever gottendown to two words as a small
silver bullet that I've everconceived of, which was that
scarcity sells.
Right.
And so I got I've done a numberof three-word silver bullets
over the years, but that onejust for resale.
I was like, wait a minute, thatonly needs two words.
So some famous phrases thatutilize this technique are happy

(41:24):
wife, happy life, right?
Which is the rhyme, of course,makes it very sticky, but it's
also when you if you want ahappy life, then you make your
wife happy, kind of thing.
And that's that's the samecause and effect kind of thing.
And fortune favors the bold isanother one that we've heard
over the years.
And so these are things thatare being used.
It's just most of the timepeople don't realize that it's a

(41:46):
very predictable format andoutcome that comes from using
the technique.
We're kind of running the gamuthere, though.
We're talking about gettingvulnerable about loss and also
getting very precise andtechnical about what makes a
silver bullet what it is.
Kind of funny.
I'm not surprised.
I knew that we were just gonnabe all over the place.
Yeah.

Kellie (42:07):
We're on the playground playing in the sandbox, you
know.
This is how conversations go.
And we never want to cut anystory short, right?
Because every story has suchmeaning and impact.
What do you want to share aboutthe book, the fable, the
characters, the silver bullet?
Because we want we want peopleto get the book because we don't

(42:29):
want to give it all away, butit is very powerful.

Neil (42:34):
Well, I appreciate your saying that, Kellie.
And the thing that I really Iguess I admit that I would love
to talk about more is the factthat Otto, the silver bullet guy
in the story, is starting offdriving and is struggling in his
life to make ends meet and allof that, and is very in very

(42:55):
dark feelings and whatnot.
I find that that felt like abig deal to be willing to put
that out there because when I'vehad clients who have just
started working with me and thenthey read the book after they
started working with me, andit's like, oh, I guess you're
auto.
And I said, Well, I certainlyinspired certain details in his
life, but we are different andwe don't share all the same

(43:16):
biographical details, et cetera,et cetera.
But we do have this ridesharedriving to make ends meet thing
in common.
And I guess what I wish I couldbe asked about more is just
finding the very nuanced ways todraw on my life without making
it my life, because that woundup being something that here's

the thing (43:38):
it wound up being a great way to conceive of the
story.
But what I really liked inlater drafts, and the reason why
he stayed a driver, is that thesilver bullet's power is in
that it empowers withoutcontext.
You don't need to hear anythingelse in order to hear it.
And so when we look at yourmother's concept, and I'm I'm

(44:02):
not gonna get the exact wordingright, but the idea being that
the lessons we uh could you sayit again for for me, Kellie?
Sorry, could you just so thateveryone knows what we're
talking about?

Kellie (44:12):
"The greatest lessons we have to teach others are the
very ones we must also learnourselves."

Neil (44:18):
Yes, okay, great.
People don't need to hear morethan that in order to do
something with it.
Right.
And so the thing that I reallywish more people would ask me
about, and which is why I'm soappreciative of the open-ended
nature of your question, Kellie,is that I realized in a later
draft that he needed to be aperson of low status.
He needed to be a person whowas see perceived because uh

(44:42):
service professionals, drivers,and food service people are
unfortunately, I'm not sayingthat they deserve low status,
I'm just saying that they'reoften perceived as being low
status.
And uh I realized that thepotency of that choice lied in
the fact that he didn't need tobe in perceived high status.

(45:04):
When we think of the go-giver,and the the main character goes
to the mentor, uh Pindar, Ithink his name is, and he's got
this palatial home, and he'sjust tremendously influential
and very wealthy, and uh that isa person you want to learn
from.
Whereas in this story, uh, thementor uh is in this low status

(45:28):
position, uh, and the reason whythe work uh why his work is
credible, and and the reason whyshe decides to get his help is
because of the intrinsic natureof the technique itself.
If he was a high status personproviding it, it would have
distracted from the intrinsicpower and potency of the
technique because he gives her asilver bullet in that

(45:48):
conversation to the airport, andshe just has this mind-blowing
epiphany around all of herlife's work.
And by the way, not in any wayan exaggeration of what
happened.
I actually helped thiscommercial photographer once.
I drove him 20 minutes and wefound his silver bullet for his
photography work, and he wasreally grumpy.

(46:10):
And I remember like thecomments you get in the app the
next day are anonymous, but Iknew who what he wrote, and he
started the car ride reallyangry and pissed off about
something.
And then I just for whateverreason, I didn't let him off the
hook and I made him talk to me,which today I probably wouldn't
do.
But back then I didn't seem toknow any better, and I made him
talk to me about his work and Ihelped him to find a silver

(46:33):
bullet that his way of creatingthe best images was through
prompting authentic moments,like surprising them.
He would he would surprisethem, and that made them
authentic.
And so I don't remember theexact wording, but the idea was
by surprising your subject,you're going to get more
authentic photos, and so that'swhat he did in his process.
And he was just like just hismind was blown, and he walked

(46:56):
away from my car.
Yeah, exactly.
He walked away from my car andhe looked back at me with this
kind of like shaking his head,like, what the hell just
happened kind of thing?
And it was so funny.
And so, again, when somebodywho's in this driving role can
do something like that, and I'mI promise you, I'm not trying to
make myself sound cool, but oror like that I'm like that I'm

(47:19):
hot stuff or whatever.
It's not about that, it's aboutthe technique itself and how no
matter who gives it to you, ifit empowers you, it empowers
you.
If it gives you the epiphany,it gives you the epiphany.

Erin (47:31):
Yeah.

Neil (47:32):
So this is the thing that after the fact I realized, wait
a minute, this is exactly who heneeds to be, what he needs to
be doing, I should say, becausewe need the low, low perceived
status to elevate the status ofthe technique.

Erin (47:44):
Wow.

Neil (47:45):
I've never been able to say that to anyone before.
And I appreciate the open.
I and I honestly I didn't evenremember to answer it when you
first started asking my first, Istarted kind of rambling a bit,
and I was like, oh, that'sright.
This is what I want to talkabout.
So I'm I'm actually quitegrateful.
Thank you for that.

Kellie (48:00):
Oh, you are welcome, and let's keep going with it.
Yeah, I love how what you justdescribed to me ties back so
much to this podcast in theP-I-G, the purpose, intention,
and gratitude.
I just heard all of that inthat story because the the
purpose provides the clarity,the intention provides the

(48:21):
connection, and the gratitude isthe impact.
And yeah, that's what I justheard.
So my heart's just kind offluttering, and I have
goosebumps right now, too.
So I appreciate that.

Erin (48:33):
Well, and it the the ripple effect of that is
limitless.
I mean, you have no idea thenwhat that photographer went out
and did and how his business wasimpacted and grew, and when he
had that defining moment forhimself, right?

Neil (48:54):
Right.

Erin (48:54):
When something like that, like you said, it doesn't matter
who it comes from, right?
But when you have that momentof clarity, and then you can you
choose to step forward andactually do something with it,
that's extraordinary.
And you will probably neverknow the impact of your words on

(49:15):
him, and then the action thathe took in his own professional
career, and maybe even in hispersonal life and growth.
Like I mean, the the impact ofthat is probably very far
reaching.
The ripple effect of that ispowerful.

Neil (49:32):
Yeah.
And isn't isn't it remarkablehow we will go through life not
not knowing that and what a giftit would be to one day find
out.
I I listen to Conan O'Brien'spodcast quite often.
It's just a nice thing tolisten to when walking, when I
go on my long walks every day.
And he's often spoken to how inthe early days of his show, in

(49:56):
the early 90s, early to mid-90s,they were constantly under
threat of being canceled.
Like it was constant, anongoing threat to everything
that he's doing.
And he was unknown before theshow.
It wasn't like he wouldnecessarily land on his feet if
this show flopped, kind ofthing.
And he would find out laterwhen talking to the younger
generation of comedians likeJohn Mullaney and all that,

(50:18):
these people loved his show andthought it was the greatest
thing.
And he said on the podcast,like it would have been so nice
to have known that back then, toknow that this was actually
impacting people.
Right.
And while we have much, a muchbetter line of sight now with
social media and the internethaving so many lines of

(50:39):
communication and so many waysto be in connection, at least
virtually.
We at least have a greaterchance of learning these things.
And yet there are so manythings to your point, Erin.
Like there's such a rippleeffect going on that we might
not ever find out about.
I think there's a little sadabout that.
Yeah, sorry.

Kellie (50:58):
A little sad about not being able to know about the
ripple effect.

Neil (51:02):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
When you when you write a bookand let's say you sell five
million copies, you have apretty solid idea that people
are out there benefiting fromthe thing.
But when you are going outthere, I mean, other than
reviews on Amazon and a coupleof people who write you, it's
like you could put something outthere that has had a profound

(51:23):
effect, but you just neverhappen to communicate with the
person on like with whom hadthat experience.

Kellie (51:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Just leaning into the humanside that we never know, but
celebrating the fact that we putsomething out there to begin
with.

Neil (51:39):
Yeah.

Kellie (51:39):
And that that just in and of itself is really cool.

Neil (51:43):
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.

Kellie (51:45):
I think the connection between persuasion, positive
persuasion, and presence isreally cool.
And I can see how that actuallythe same skills and the same
process, I guess I should say,that's part of the silver
bullet.
I see how that ties intoconnection with healing within

(52:09):
ourselves, within ourrelationships.
To me, there's a there is aconnection between how we use
our words and what we say andhow we encapsulate our message
that can really create opennessand peace and presence.
It in the book, and the reasonI thought of that is that I know

(52:31):
what my personal work with youon silver bullets has meant to
me and the people that I haveshared that with.
But I've also been able torecognize what it's meant for me
being more present in myrelationships, but that how even
stating the silver bulletcreates kind of pause and

(52:54):
presence in other people.
Does that make sense?

Neil (52:57):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting.
Like you mentioned gettinggoosebumps before, and that's a
fairly common response to let'ssay a speaker going up on stage
and then uh providing a silverbullet like statement at a
certain point in the talk.
And that often happens is thatsomeone gets goosebumps or
chills or whatever what it mightbe.

(53:19):
And my interpretation of thathas always been that there isn't
some sort of fake or feignedsounds good, but what does it
actually mean kind of quality toit?
It actually is intrinsic in itsimpact, which is the whole
point why I've become soevangelical and and hung my hat

(53:39):
on this seemingly minor thing,but it's not minor because it
demands presence.
To your point, Kellie.
It's just like when you finallyget something like that
photographer did in that carride, when it finally comes
together, there's nothing fakeabout that.
You're not pretending that it'sgood, you're not wanting it to
be good, and so you kind ofconvince yourself it's good,

(54:01):
kind of thing.
It just it just feels right.
It just feels right.
It's I mean, there are otheraspects of life where we can
harness that and find that forourselves, but this happens to
be in communication and clarity.
And when you find that foryourself or you see it happen
for someone else, there'ssomething truly gratifying about
that.

Erin (54:20):
It's so cool.
I just had this thought whenyou were talking about that of
how goosebumps seems to be areally physical response, it's
almost like a physicalmanifestation of an emotional
impact.

Neil (54:35):
Yeah.

Erin (54:36):
I've never really thought about it like that before, but I
had that thought when you saidwhat you just said, and that's
powerful.

Neil (54:44):
It's powerful, Erin, right?
Because it's real.
If if it's physically affectingyou, then there's no faking
that.

Erin (54:52):
No, you feel it.

Neil (54:53):
You can this is it's just your body is doing the thing
involuntarily.
And so that's almost the thingthat creates the presence is the
recognition of, oh, I had aphysical response to that.
I hear that, Neil, because Ifollow your social and I love
what you're doing right now withyour clips from talk shows or

(55:14):
movies and movies and stuff,yeah.
Oh my gosh, I find myselflaughing.
I mean, it's it's it's been areally fun little, you know, as
I take a break in my day and Ipick up my social and I see your
stuff, and I just find oh, suchjoy and laughter.
You're so brilliant in how you,you know, use that to help
people understand this is theimpact moment.

(55:36):
But your work is really abouthelping people create that
impact moment.
Erin and I just did a couple ofepisodes, a huge part of our
work in our reconnection andreally resetting our own
relationship has beenunderstanding who we are better,
how we do what we do, why we dowhat we do.

(55:58):
And we actually, I've beendoing this assessment work for
well over 20 years, but we'rereally integrating it into our
work as podcast hosts and assisters and in our own
relationships.
And you know that Marcus hasdone that work for over two
decades now.
Yeah.

Kellie (56:15):
And as part of that, we acknowledge that we are both
very, very high eyes or highinfluencers.
We talk yeah, sometimesincessantly.
And we have to catch ourselvesin that moment.
This comes back to thebeginning of our conversation

(56:37):
about being the talker.
And what your dad said is Ihear you doing all the talking.
And through my own developmentof emotional intelligence
through the years, and I work onthis every single day, is
catching myself over-talking,over-explaining, because I tend
to process and think while I'mtalking out loud.

(57:01):
But the beautiful part, Erin'sraising her hand, we do this, of
what you teach people is how totake all of those words and
encapsulate it down into this.
Distill it.
Here's the power, here's thepunch, here's the real message
that you're getting after, andyou don't have to have all those

(57:21):
other words.
It's not that we're gonna stoptalking and having conversation.
That's an important part of theprocess, but I love that aspect
of your work.
At least that's been part ofthe impact on me.

Neil (58:13):
And and for our listeners, what I think is kind of a fun
little detail is that while mostof my living is made from
helping public speakers withtheir like putting together a
keynote speech or a TED Liketalk or what have you.
What's funny is that Ipositioned myself doing that in
2017 with a webinar.
That's how I turned thingsaround.

(58:35):
I fired myself from Lyft andcreated this webinar and it did
very well right away.
Had it not, I don't know whatwould have happened.
But I created a webinar, andKellie, you very generously gave
me a very nice testimonial fromour work and me helping you
with a keynote once upon a time,like probably back in about
2016 or so.
And I only had you and I thinktwo other people who became who

(59:00):
were case studies of publicspeaking specifically, because
most of my work had been on bookcollaboration.
And it was funny that it wasenough because I had five
concepts in the webinar, and oneof the one of them I didn't use
a case study, another one itwas just a case study that was
about something unrelated tospeaking.
But then I had you and twoother people in that webinar,

(59:21):
and that was all I had to sharewith people around public
speaking success, but it stillwound up being very compelling.
That was just a fun side storybecause your testimonial was
just very valuable at a timewhen I was really lacking in a
lot of demonstration that thisapproach worked for public
speaking.
But my larger point, apart fromthe digression, is that it

(59:43):
really from what you described,and when you did that kind of
speaking, when you builtstrategically up to like this
one simple concept and all ofthat, I remember this very well,
actually.
You you just got really goodresponses from the person up top
and from the and you wereinvited so.
Several times, if I'm notmistaken, to give that talk
again right after.

(01:00:03):
And it's just like we all haveso much we want to share.
We've spent a lifetimeaccumulating knowledge and
insight and all of that andwisdom.
And in certain settings, likegiving a 15, 30, or 45 minute
talk, what's more important isthat you get to that one idea
that you can integrate andinternalize and move forward

(01:00:24):
with.
And the rest of it is justabout dressing it up so that it
really lands and sticks.
And you were just wonderfullycoachable about that.
And it it just became a greatexample of what's possible with
this kind of work and beingpersuasive in this way.

Kellie (01:00:39):
Well, thank you.
I feel really honored to havehad those experiences with you
and that it made such an impact.
For me, it was, you know,anytime I would find myself in a
public speaking situation, wespend so much time thanking
people and explaining who we areand giving our background.

(01:01:03):
None of which needs to be saidin those moments.

Neil (01:01:08):
Right.

Kellie (01:01:08):
Because that winds up being all about you going back
to something we talked out preabout previously, versus being
what's landing for the listener,which also came up in Rich
Burner's episode, Erin, right?
As a producer and as a radiohost and a storyteller, that's
what's always at the top of hismind.

(01:01:30):
And that that is something verypowerful that I learned from
you was why are these peoplesitting in their seats and why
should they be listening to you?
What do you have to offer?
And that's what comes first.

Neil (01:01:45):
Yeah, the unfortunate thing that I see among so many
well-meaning people, and Iemphasize well-meaning here, is
they skip a step and that theyhave all the stuff that they
understand and know.
And then they just provide itkind of like raw content, like
raw material.
And while some of it has thepotential to land and all of

(01:02:07):
that, what I find is thatwithout putting it through the
filter of what you just said,Kellie, like how can this
ultimately be a value to thesepeople?
Without that, we see a lot ofpeople missing an opportunity to
really have an impact and toconnect with the people that are
there to help.
And so by just looking at ourcontent through the lens of how
can this ultimately impact thepeople I'm sharing it with, it

(01:02:32):
just makes a huge difference.
And obviously, there areprinciples and strategies that
can really help make thathappen.
Like you just mentioned likespending time asking how
everyone's doing and talkingabout themselves and stuff.
You were a great example of thepower of just opening with a
really powerful line, which Iknow to this day.
I remember this.

(01:02:52):
Like I remember, yeah, it saida longtime friend of mine didn't
know what to do.
Right?
That's it, right?
And it was, and you just youjust started with that line, and
then all of a sudden, peopleare like, Oh, she started.
I better pay attention.

Kellie (01:03:05):
Yeah.

Neil (01:03:06):
Instead of, oh, how are you?
when people are still doingtheir thing and they're just
looking for their tissues orwhatever.
And so it's like you you justwent out there and you did the
thing, and and people reallyresponded well.

Kellie (01:03:19):
And starting with that line paved the way and opened up
that space for the delivery ofthe information that's that
concluded with the silverbullet.

Neil (01:03:28):
Right, right.
At the end of the day, peopleare leading very busy, very
harried lives.
And if let's say you have atalk at a conference and you're
one of five speakers they'regoing to hear from that day, and
then you spend your 45 minutesdoing five or seven or nine
things that you teach them, thenit just becomes nine things on

(01:03:49):
top of the hundred other thingsthey're learning that day, and
it all becomes noise.
But if you do the one thing, ifyou teach one concept, you
begin, oh, I really, I reallylike that speaker who talked
about the lessons we need tolearn, kind of thing.
Like that that's how they'veinternalized it, or for example,
whatever the silver bulletmight be about.

Kellie (01:04:09):
You know, another silver bullet that came out of our
work together was clarity aboutwho we are leads to authentic
communication with others.
Do you remember that one?

Neil (01:04:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Kellie (01:04:21):
Yeah, and I've used that in my work in health and
wellness over the last easilyeight years.
In fact, I just gave a traininglast week where I used that.

Neil (01:04:33):
You did, yeah.
That is so cool.
That is so cool, Kellie.
What a what a see this is likethis is like the the ripple
effect that the Erin you justmentioned, right?
It's like I had no idea thatyou were making stuff that we
did 10 years ago actionable,like in this year.
I didn't know that until justnow.

(01:04:54):
That's amazing.

Erin (01:04:56):
For me, it's so cool.
And I I'm sitting herelistening and just watching both
of your faces light up, and I'mlike nodding in agreement, all
these things.
But for me, there's a reallystrong thread woven into this,
which ties back to somethingthat Kellie and I talk about in

(01:05:18):
almost every conversation and onthis podcast for sure, which is
legacy.
And how so often people thinkof legacy, their legacy as what
they leave behind, but it's not.
Your legacy is how you'reliving right now.
And we talk a lot about theconcept of living legacy.

(01:05:42):
And for me, listening to all ofthis, there's such a beautiful
tie-in between these words thatare written and spoken, these
truths, and how the message ofthat becomes your legacy.

(01:06:02):
Doing the work that the two ofyou have done and finding these
silver bullets and these keyphrases, and for you to even
just discover that you knowKellie's still using those key
statements 10 years later, yeah,you are getting a glimpse of

(01:06:23):
some of that ripple effect,which is really cool.
But for me, Neil, that is yourlegacy being played out in
Kellie's life and in her life'swork, which is part of her
legacy.

Neil (01:06:39):
And right, and the people she impacts.

Erin (01:06:42):
Exactly.

Kellie (01:06:42):
And what we're doing here, you know, I hearing the
stories of others helps uscreate a more meaningful
connection to our own.
Neil, we probably repeat thaton a daily basis, if not many
times every week.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
It's that's that's great.

Kellie (01:06:59):
It's the first thing people see on their website is
yeah, that silver bullet.

Erin (01:07:04):
Yeah.
And we say it in every episode,and even this morning, I was
telling Kellie before we allhopped on to do this recording
that I was just on my personalFacebook page today and saw this
thing pop up from now.
My algorithms are all basedaround podcasting and all kinds

(01:07:24):
of things.
But yeah, and grief seems to bea theme that is now very
present in my social mediaalgorithms.
And so I saw a post thismorning from somebody that I
don't know and don't follow, itjust popped up as a
recommendation, you know howthey do, that said we don't talk

(01:07:48):
enough about the grief thatoccurs from losing people that
are still here.
Yeah.
And my comment on that, becauseI in the moment took the moment
to respond to that and said, Wedo.

Neil (01:08:05):
Yeah.

Erin (01:08:05):
And hearing the stories of others helps us create a more
meaningful connection to ourown.
And so I invite you to listento this podcast and to these
conversations that Kellie and Iare having.
And so that was just today onsocial media, first thing this
morning.
And so to Kellie's point, yes.
For me, it's become more thanjust a tagline.
It's something that is livingand breathing and impacting

(01:08:31):
every conversation that we have,every outreach that we make,
every guest that we invite on.
It's taken on a life of itsown.
That statement in my life hasbecome its own life force, if
you will.

Neil (01:08:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm hearing that in whatyou're describing, Erin, because
it's one thing to have it as atagline for a podcast, as a
project that you've created anda thing you're putting out into
the world.
But this was you just showingup in the world, just placing a
comment on social media.
And what I imagine is that morethan one person who read that

(01:09:09):
stopped and thought about thatfor a moment, if not even
outright made a concerted,concerted effort to internalize
that in some way.
Because again, it has theintrinsic potency.
There's nothing else that needsto be said for it to have value
to them.
And you feel what I'mperceiving is you both feel a
stronger sense of clarity aroundthe impact you wish to have

(01:09:32):
both through the podcast andbeyond.
And that's not bad for asentence, is it?

Kellie (01:09:36):
Well, thank you for being part of our legacy here.
That's really cool.
I mean, that really brought itall full circle.

Neil (01:09:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
Yeah.

Kellie (01:09:47):
So fill us in a little bit on where life is for you
right now.
And if you have any lingeringthoughts about, you know, these
concepts of life, love, loss,and legacy that we've been
talking about to get to whereyou are now in your life.
You're married, you're livingin New York, you're growing your

(01:10:08):
presence in your book.
I mean, life seems to really begoing quite great, Neil.

Neil (01:10:15):
Well, I appreciate uh your your reflections on that,
Kellie.
I'm reminded of when I was avery young man, I was about 24,
and I was pretty angsty andpretty, I was I was
transitioning out of being atheater person around 99, 2000,

(01:10:36):
and in 2001, I was pretty lost,but I had really grown attached
to a very short-lived show thatwas in like the 99-2000
television season.
It was called Freaks and Geeks.
Did either of you watch thatshow?
Do you ever hear of that?

Kellie (01:10:51):
I don't think I heard of that.
No.

Neil (01:10:52):
Yeah.
So this was a Judd Apatowproduction, and it was created
by Paul Feig.
Paul Feig would go on to directa number of movies we've seen,
like Bridesmaids and a bunch ofother stuff with Melissa
McCarthy and and and all the.
I think he did the the femaleGhostbusters too.
Anyway, Paul created the show,and I had really grown attached

(01:11:16):
to it.
It was canceled much, muchearlier than it should have been
because it never had its day.
And he was available online,like he had a publicly shared
email address.
So I was going through thiskind of like, I don't know what
to do with my own creativitykind of thing back then.
And I had no direction and nofocus.
I certainly wasn't acommunications person back then.

(01:11:37):
And I wrote him this rather arather emo email about is there
any satisfaction after creatingsomething of value?
Because that's what freaks andgeeks was to me.
And it took him a while, but heactually wrote back and in a
much longer email than I hadwritten him, all about how to be

(01:11:58):
a truly creative person is toalways create.
And I took that to heart.
So what I've been dealing withnow is that I did put this book
out, and that was a major lifegoal.
But now it's come and I'm outpromoting it, and I'm doing what
I can to get I want to get thisinto as many hands as possible.

(01:12:18):
But I'm also working on asecond book, and it's basically
going to be a trilogy for me.
And the the second book is awork in progress, and I haven't
even started writing the thirdone yet, but it's daunting, even
having gone through thisalready.
This is an even arguably moreambitious parable, and I'm a bit

(01:12:39):
scared of it.
But I remember what he wrote tome, what is now almost 25 years
ago, and remind myself thatyeah, I have to just keep
creating something from here onout.
And this is this is what lifeis.
And maybe it gets shared, maybeit doesn't, but I've got to
keep doing it.
And so for me, life right nowis harnessing whatever it is,

(01:13:03):
despite the fear and despite thetension I hold around it,
harnessing whatever I can to putmyself in front of the computer
and make it happen or in frontof the notebook too, because
sometimes it's long hand.

Kellie (01:13:13):
Yeah.

Neil (01:13:14):
Anyway, that's where I'm at now.
Yes, I'm working, yes, I'mdoing all sorts of things, but
the thing that means a greatdeal is to continue honoring
that idea that to just keepcreating regardless.

Erin (01:13:25):
That's beautiful and exciting because I can't wait to
read the next book.
That's for sure.

Kellie (01:13:32):
Well, thank you.

Neil (01:13:33):
I appreciate that.

Kellie (01:13:34):
I know, me too.
As you think about the silverbullet and its application in
everyday life, there areprobably people listening
saying, hmm, I wonder if I havea powerful sentence.
Maybe the most powerfulsentence I have to say is what
I'm actually afraid to speak.
What would you say?
What would you recommend?

(01:13:55):
What are your thoughts?

Neil (01:13:57):
Well, there's two ways that we can go.
I'll offer my thoughts in bothdirections.
On the more technical, tacticalside, if you're looking to
explore the silver bulletconcept for yourself, my
recommendation is to think aboutto find your idea and what it
is and how you might frame it.
Contrast it with the opposingviewpoints that you least

(01:14:19):
approve of.
So, because contrast createsclarity, which is something
that's talked about in the book.
And so I offer this to everyonethat you are interested in
finding this kind of clarity foryourself, then find that
contrast.
What most people believe is X,but I believe Y.
And that just becomes a veryfruitful place in which to

(01:14:40):
explore one's own ideas.
In the more nuanced,emotionally significant way.
I will admit that I've I'veencountered a lot of people who
set out to work with me andflamed out.
And I sense that it was becausethey struggled to believe that
they had something like this inthem.

(01:15:01):
Okay.
And I struggled to have asilver bullet for silver bullets
for a long time.
I knew the concept, but Ididn't have one for myself.
And I spent a year and a halffumbling around with it.
And I gave a workshop with theone that I had at the time and
it didn't land, and peopledidn't understand what it meant.
And I felt like I a lot of eggon my face because the silver

(01:15:22):
bullet guy didn't have a silverbullet.
And two days later, I wastaking a shower, and then the
concept just hit me that peopleare empowered not by that which
they know is true, but ratherthat which they believe is
possible.

Erin (01:15:35):
Wow.

Neil (01:15:36):
This is about convincing others that change is possible.
That's what this is all about.
And it took a year and a halfto find it.
So there's no clear-cut way toensure that this happens.
But if somebody who does thisfor a living can't do it for
themselves for a year and ahalf, then I hope everyone will

(01:15:58):
honor whatever run, givethemselves whatever runway they
need to give themselves in orderto find this clarity for
themselves.

Erin (01:16:06):
That is really impactful and very beautifully and
eloquently stated.
When you talk about that forsomebody who is looking for
their own silver bullet, doesthat equate to what you or what
other people may consider to betheir kind of personal mission

(01:16:27):
statement?
Are those one and the same?
Or is that different?

Neil (01:16:33):
You know, it's interesting.
That's a that gets into apretty nuanced place.
Because in if we're going toget super technical about it, a
silver bullet is a recipe.
It's a secret sauce for how tosolve some sort of problem.
It could be a very broad,far-reaching problem, but
ultimately it is here to codifyhow something gets done.

Erin (01:16:56):
Okay.

Neil (01:16:56):
And a mission statement to me is what we do.
It's what our mission is this,it's what we do.
So if we're going to get super,super technical, it's a
statement that supports the how,and the mission statement is
what supports the what.
However, what I found is that Ihad some clarity a handful of
years ago around a silver bulletfor my personal life.

(01:17:19):
It's not so much about how togive a talk or how to write a
book or how to be a greatcommunicator in general.
It's more how I want to live anoptimal life.
And the silver bullet I came upwith for myself is that the
quality of my life will bedefined by the quality of the
feelings I have while living it.
So my work is to optimize how Ifeel.

(01:17:40):
And so technically the missionis to optimize how I feel.
And a silver bullet got me tothat clarity.

Erin (01:17:47):
Beautiful.
Thank you for that.
And thank you for that insightinto the difference between
that.
That's something that I wouldlove to, you know, yeah.

Neil (01:17:57):
It's very subtle.

Erin (01:17:58):
Dive in personally for myself.

Neil (01:18:01):
Yeah.

Kellie (01:18:02):
Right.
Yeah.

Neil (01:18:02):
Yeah.

Kellie (01:18:03):
Maybe we can do a collaboration project.
Yeah.
Your personal silver bullet.

Neil (01:18:08):
There you go.
There you go.
What is what is your northnorth star for how you show up
in the world?

Kellie (01:18:14):
Yeah.

Neil (01:18:14):
Yeah.

Kellie (01:18:15):
I like that.
Well, Neil, you are showing upin the world in really
remarkable ways.
And thank you for all thedifferent ways you've shown up
in my life personally andprofessionally.
I really appreciate the workthat we've done together.
I appreciate the friendship andconnection that we have built

(01:18:36):
over the course of time.
And it's a real honor to haveyou here and sharing time with
us today.

Neil (01:18:43):
The honor feels mutual.
And I very much appreciate theunique and meaningful way that
you're utilizing this medium toaffect the lives of others.
It's great to see.

Erin (01:18:54):
Well, thank you for that.
For me, it's really fun tolisten to you talk about the
power of words and how words canchange the story completely.
And for us on this podcast,right, the PIG, for us, those

(01:19:16):
words are purpose, intention,and gratitude.
It is what drives everythingthat we do.
And so I would love for you toshare your PIG with us.

Neil (01:19:31):
And so this is like a word or two for each of the three
concepts?

Erin (01:19:36):
It can be anything that you want it to be.
And it can it could be maybeyou have specific words, a P
word, an I word, and a G wordthat really speak to you.
Or it could be elaborating onwhat those words, purpose,
intention, and gratitude, meanto you.

(01:19:57):
Or you could completely take itin a different Direction.

Neil (01:20:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Erin (01:20:02):
So it's really whatever speaks to you in this moment.

Neil (01:20:05):
I would say that the way that I integrate those concepts,
I suppose, has to do withhonesty with myself.
And that if I am truly tooptimize the second half of my
life, I'm gonna be fully honestabout the things I'm
experiencing and not just thegood stuff, but also the not so

(01:20:26):
good stuff as well.
And somehow find a way to honorthat.
That if I can integrate all ofthe elements of myself and be
honest about those elements andallow each of them to be fully
expressed, then I willexperience a level of gratitude
for the life I've lived in a waythat I feel in the past was

(01:20:48):
rather elusive.

Erin (01:20:50):
Thank you for that.
And the integration is theperfect I word for you in that
moment.
So that's amazing.

Kellie (01:21:00):
I was thinking we could put Neil on the spot and have
him come up with a sister silverbullet using the words purpose,
intention, and gratitude.

Erin (01:21:11):
Oh now Neil's in the hot seat.
I like it.

Neil (01:21:15):
It is it is only when we it is only when we are
intentional about realizing ourpurpose that we will experience
an authentic sense of gratitudein our life.

Erin (01:21:29):
Oh tie that up with a beautiful bow!

Kellie (01:21:32):
Drop the mic.

Neil (01:21:34):
This is like uh this is an odd audio medium, it's just
that our listeners won't see theway like you guys kind of like
like swayed around in your inyour zoom zoom frames there kind
of thing.
It was just really funny to seethat.

Kellie (01:21:46):
Whoa, yeah, that was a mic drop.
That was great, Neil.
Thank you so much.
In closing, will you share withall the listeners how they can
follow you, connect with you,get the book, hire you, work
with you, whatever they want todo.
Stay in touch.

Neil (01:22:05):
Whatever they want to do.
Going to my website is the mostcentral hub for achieving just
about all of those things.
Neilcanhelp.com.
N-E-I-L-C-A-N-H-E-L-P dot com.
And that's the handle or prettyclose to the handle for all of
my socials.
And so I Instagram, I somehowlost track of my original

(01:22:25):
NeilCanHelp handle.
So it's Neil-dot-can-dot-help.
But the others are justNeilCanHelp.
And so that if you rememberthat, then you should be able to
find me pretty easily.

Kellie (01:22:35):
Great.
The books on Amazon.

Neil (01:22:37):
Yep.
Books on Amazon and whereverbooks are sold online.
And I'm sure some independentbookstores you can order it
there too, if you really, ifthat's your thing.

Erin (01:22:45):
Thank you so much, Neil.
This was incredible.
So impactful.
I was I took several notes andhave so many thoughts and what a
beautiful conversation.
Yeah.
Like agreed.
Great time spent today.
Thank you.

Neil (01:22:59):
Yeah, I I appreciate it as well.
And like I said, anytime I'masked a question that gives me a
chance to talk about somethingI've not been able to talk about
before is very much prized byme.
So thank you for that.

Kellie (01:23:10):
And will you come back and join us again?

Neil (01:23:12):
Absolutely.
You guys just tell me when theproper cadence for Neil Gordon
returns is, and I will be there.

Kellie (01:23:19):
We can't wait.

Erin (01:23:58):
If something in this episode moved you, please
consider sharing it with someoneyou love.
A small share can make a bigimpact.
You can also join us onInstagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn
and connect further atthePIGpodcast.com.

Kellie (01:24:13):
And if you're enjoying this podcast, one of the most
meaningful ways you can supportus is by leaving a five-star
rating, writing a short review,or simply letting us know your
thoughts.
Your feedback helps us reachothers and reminds us why we do
this work.

Erin (01:24:28):
Because the P-I-G isn't just a podcast.
It's a place to remember thateven in the midst of grief, life
goes on, resilience matters,and love never leaves.
Thanks for being on thisjourney with us.
Until next time, hogs andkisses everyone!

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