Rooted in Love and Legacy: The Unexpected Gift of Katie

Episode Transcript
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The Sisters (00:11):
There are moments in life that change everything
the loss of a parent, thepresence of someone new, and the
quiet, unexpected ways thatlove rebuilds what grief once
tore apart.
For us, that moment came nearly30 years ago, when Katie walked
into our lives.
It wasn't in some big, dramaticway.
It was quiet, gentle, grounded.

(00:32):
After our mom passed away, wewere grown, grieving and trying
to figure out how to moveforward.
Katie didn't replace anyone.
She simply made space for allof us.
Her story begins long before weknew her, with heartbreak, hard
choices and hope.
And this Mother's Day, we'resitting down with a woman who
not only married our dad butsomehow managed to stitch

(00:55):
together a new kind of familyfrom the pieces left behind.
This isn't just a conversationabout motherhood.
It's a conversation about love,loss, healing and history.
Welcome to the PIG, where weexplore life, love, loss and
legacy through realconversations and meaningful
stories.
We're your hosts.
I'm Erin and I'm Kelly.

(01:17):
Whether this is your firstepisode or you've been with us
from the start, today's story isdeeply personal, so settle in
with us as we open the door to awoman who's been a part of our
lives for nearly three decadesand whose presence, laughter and
unwavering strength have helpedshape the women we are.

Erin (01:35):
I'm already crying.

Kellie (01:55):
Well, we didn't make it far without tears.

Erin (01:58):
No, we did not, and I knew we wouldn't.

Kellie (02:01):
Katie, it's really incredible for Erin and I to sit
down with you today, especiallyjust days before Mother's Day.
So happy early Mother's Day toyou.
You have been such aninstrumental part of our world
for nearly three decades.
You have been the mom thatwe've needed when we haven't had
a mom.
You've been a mom to your ownchildren.

(02:23):
You've mothered all of us alongthe way, and our hearts are so
full of gratitude, not just forthe role that you've played in
our lives individually, togetheras sisters, but also who you've
been in the life of our dad andhow we have watched the two of
you navigate so manycomplexities of life.

(02:45):
Because, let's face it, withseven grown children and all the
grandchildren and now all thegreat grandchildren, there's a
lot to maneuver, but the day youstepped into our world, you
stepped into our hearts.
So, as we explore our lifetogether and your life with POP,
we can't thank you enough forbeing here and being a part of

(03:05):
what we're doing and supportingit every step of the way.
You have been a champion and acheerleader for both of us
through thick and thin, and it'sone of the things that I know
we both respect about you sodeeply.
And so, aaron, I'm going tothrow it out to you to kind of
kick us off.
And then, katie, we would loveto just really start by

(03:27):
exploring how all of us cametogether, how we even became a
family, and we'll see where theconversation takes us.

Katie (03:35):
Sounds great.

Erin (03:36):
I love that.
Thank you for that.
And such a beautifulintroduction.
I echo all of those sentiments.
Katie, you will likely neverknow just how deeply you've
touched our family, and while Iwasn't expecting tears quite
this early in this conversation,I'm not surprised by them, and

(03:57):
they are tears of unbelievablejoy and gratitude for who you
are and who you've been in.
Like Kelly said, our lives,your kids' lives, pop's life,
all of our kids, and theincredible grandmother you are
and great grandmother you are.
And I know that your life hasbrought its own losses and we'll

(04:21):
explore those you know, andwe'll explore those you know
today for sure.
But the impact that you've hadand the legacy that you live out
each and every day, the legacythat you have built through your
life, just is so profound andresonates so deeply with, I know
, the two of us and so it is anhonor to have you as a guest on

(04:45):
the podcast.
We've had so many heartfelt,beautiful, amazing conversations
over the years but to get tohave a conversation like this
that we get to share with theworld that's not just a private
conversation is really specialand unique.
So I'm very grateful for youand really grateful that you're
here today and, yeah, I'mexcited to just let you jump in

(05:15):
and start sharing so much ofyour story and your history and
who you are with us and with ourlisteners.
So I will let you actually justjump right in and talk about
really how you entered our lives, with your dad being our
neighbor growing up.
You know from when I wasgrowing up, but I would love for
you to just jump in and sharekind of from the beginning of

(05:38):
when you entered our world.

Katie (05:40):
That seems like so long ago and yet it seems like
yesterday and when I think aboutthat.
Well, starting with thebeginning, it was kind of an
interesting way that your dadand I met, and I'd probably
start with that.
My stepmother had pancreaticcancer and died, and so I lived
up in the mountains, high up inthe highest incorporated city in

(06:01):
the nation, and I used to godown and take care of them,
clean their house about everyother weekend.
I was a school principal at thetime.
Then one time my dad decided tojust move to Mexico.
He'd been going there for years, so we were driving in the
truck and he started talkingabout how all these women were
after him.
He was 90, I think.

(06:24):
Oh, he was about 86, close tomy age now, but he was talking
about these women.
And then I was talking about Ihad been a single mom for almost
18 years and I had chosen inthe very beginning not to get
involved with any men, because Ihad four kids three of them
were girls and I was reallyworried about who I might bring

(06:44):
into their lives, because I hadfour kids, three of them were
girls and I was really worriedabout who I might bring into
their lives because I thought,you know, 12, 13 years out of my
lifebecause the kids were, Ithink, like seven, eight, nine,
10,..
.
not emotionally and I could dothat later in life.
I wasn't against men, I justwas against divorce and the
energy it takes to maintain well, especially an early

(07:07):
relationship.
It takes a lot of energy and soI knew that I was going to be
using all my energy on trying tosupport them.
And it was really so importantto me that, despite of getting a
divorce and moving into acareer that I number one was
being a mom, moving into acareer, that I number one was
being a mom, no matter whatnumber one was being a mom.
But that's kind of where I hadbeen coming from all along.

(07:30):
So I told my father, you know,I wouldn't mind meeting someone
to go out to dinner with someoneinteresting, but no way do I
want to get married.
I said I'm not ready there.
My career was moving forward.
I just didn't, you know, Iwasn't ready to be married, but
I was ready to let someone in myworld.
In fact, when I turned 50, Iremember thinking of okay, 50

(07:52):
now, but you guys not you, aaron, you've got a ways to go, but
the rest of the seven have allturned 50 and beyond.
So, anyway, I'd love to meetsomeone, but you know I don't.
Last thing I want to do is getinvolved.
And so he came back and therewas a neighbor that they shared
and her name was Carolyn Love.

(08:12):
And so it's interesting becauseshe and my dad both take credit
for introducing your dad and I.
Oh, carolyn told me at once shethought it was the greatest
thing she did in her wholelifetime was to introduce the
two of us.
And so I love Carolyn.
I know Me too.
She was a beautiful soul.
She was a beautiful soul.
Well, evidently Carolyn washaving these two single man over

(08:36):
widows, because during thattimeframe that I was traveling
with my dad, your mom became illand I knew there was a woman
and man that were going to myfather's home and I knew that
the wife brought her some DeepakChopra tapes to listen to.
And then I knew that the manwas the only person he was a

(08:59):
doctor, was the only person thatshe would let do any physicals
on her or touch her until shedied, basically.
So I knew that there were thesetwo people.
Well then my father got ainvitation to your wedding and I
was invited too, but I didn'tknow anyone and you know, it was
just it's kind of awkward.

(09:19):
It was kind of a social out whatam I trying to say?
Recluse or whatever at thattime.
So anyway, that just showsanother connection.
So my father went over to yourhome and he just says hey, you
know, I have a daughter thatcomes down and helps us out.
Now, when your dad tells thisstory, it's different than what
I think my dad actually said.
But your dad tells a story andsays, oh, and he said she was

(09:42):
just pining away and had nothingto do there, no social life,
and so would he please just takeher out and get her out rather
than just sitting around.
So that's your dad's side.
We've heard it.

Kellie (09:56):
We've heard it.

Katie (09:58):
I know you have.
.
.
everybody has.
All our friends, everybody'sheard it.
And the problem is, your dad'ssuch a good actor, a lot of
people believe it!

Erin (10:10):
And he is a storyteller, so you never really know what's
true and what's not, but we knowthe truth.

Katie (10:16):
In fact, just today I told him are you really serious
or you know, I don't know halfthe time.
But so my dad says, well, hey,so sometime if you see a
different car down here at ourhome, feel free to come over or
ask her out on a date orsomething.
So your dad and he's probablytold this story, but anyway your

(10:37):
dad came down from a faileddate at Aspen where he stayed in
the hotel Jerome for free inMay, and so he calls up and he
talked to my dad and he asked ifhe could talk to me and my dad
played the role he always playedas a dad.
I mean, here your dad is50-something and he kind of it
was like a name, phone number,address, car insurance kind of

(11:00):
thing.
It wasn't that bad, but itreminded me of his attitude.
You know the way he'd alwaysbeen with me when I was going to
go on a date.
But anyway he said, here, I'lllet you talk to her.
And so anyway we got on and Iremember the first thing that
just really impressed me was thesound of his voice.
He just had this verycomforting tone.
And so anyway, he asked me togo to a movie that night and I

(11:23):
said yes.
And so when he first came, oh,my father answered the door the
whole thing and played that Mecoming down.
I mean, you know, it was justthese two men kind of.

Kellie (11:34):
It was kind of funny, which is so funny, Katie,
because we lived across thestreet from Vernon for years.

Katie (11:42):
I know, you know all the players.

Kellie (11:43):
So we knew Vernon and Winnie so well.
We lived next door to Carolyn,so it's so cute how fatherly he
was.
Yeah, you know all thecharacters.
So this was May of 1995?
.

Katie (11:55):
Yes, because your mother died in 94?

Kellie (11:57):
Right, September of 1994

Katie (11:59):
Right, so it was May of 1995.
So, anyway, we went to themovie I'll remember it sometime,
but it was romantic.
And then we went to the boxlight and so, anyway, we just,
you know, we had a nice eveningand he took me home, and so the
next day he calls me and askedme if I'd like to go for a walk
along the river, and so I saidyes.

(12:20):
I said yes, but at our age,being in our 50s, well,
obviously there was a sparkthere and it was like before
either one of us was evenwilling to take any kind of a
step.
We needed to establish somethings, find out where this
other person's coming from.
I know for me a strong thingwas family and children.
You know I couldn't go off in arelationship and leave anybody

(12:43):
behind.
You know I couldn't go off in arelationship and leave anybody
behind.
He basically validated that,that that was one of his
priorities too, and that'sprobably the most pervasive
thing that we you know that weestablished.
And then, of course, there'sthings like loyalty and all
kinds of things that we all haveissues with.
You know, frequently it'sthings that maybe in the past or

(13:03):
whatever.
I mean.
There's just no way that youcan live at all and not have
some bad experiences where youremember certain patterns or
certain things and you learnfrom those things.
And so I think that both of ushad our issues and so those were
things that also we put on thetable.
Then it just proceeded fromthere and so he came up to where

(13:25):
I lived and one time pretty newinto our relationship.
School had ended for the schoolyear but my secretaries and I
were still working in the office, and so your dad called and
asked if I'd like to go out tolunch and I thought and that's
the first thing he knew aboutthis relationship, which makes
sense when I think it was, youknow, the 28th of May that we
met basically, and so in thislittle mountain town they just

(13:49):
could not believe the romance.
He flew up in the airplane andflying up and taking me to lunch
, and so my staff and everyonesaw our love kind of grow and
develop, and so they were a bigpart of that because I'd been
single and everybody knew that,and so anyway, that pretty much
is how we met and then one ofthe things that was so nice

(14:12):
about it for both of us is thatit was three and a half hours to
drive to see each other.
We could get together for theweekend and it was sort of like
he was courting me, but duringthe week I could devote all my
time to my job and he, you know,had grieving to do.
He had, he was involved in yourlives, I think.

(14:33):
He did eyes for a while, butthat's all.
He didn't do any heavy dutyanesthesia, so anyway, we were
allowed to get away from eachother, basically, and then every
time he would call and ask meout, I could have said no, you
know how you, just you reallyare a distance enough away that
you don't feel any pressure, andhe didn't have any pressure to

(14:53):
keep calling me back either.
So anyway, that's the beginningof our love story, and I don't
know if I said one of the thingsI wanted to do when I turned 50
was before I died.
I wanted to meet my prince, andso I'm kind of a romantic and
so I met my prince.

(15:27):
.
.

Erin (15:27):
Oh, it's so beautiful, it's so fun for me
I was a little girl when wemoved into that house and became
neighbors with your dad andstepmom, so I really grew up,

(15:48):
like you mentioned, with Billand Carolyn Love Next Door, the
Instrums on the other side ofthem, which are now such a huge
part of what we're doing withthe podcast and then your dad,
vernon and Winnie, across thestreet, and as a little girl I
felt like I had all these extraparents and grandparents kind of

(16:10):
the distant aunts and uncleskeeping their eye on me, keeping
me in check Pretty sure yourdad's the one who called the
police when I threw a party atthe house one time those kind of
neighbors.
But I think back on that timeof my life with such fondness
and just the love that I had forvernon and winnie and all of

(16:36):
those characters that were justsuch a part of my childhood and
my upbringing, and so it's sofun for, as much as I know about
your story and yourrelationship, obviously, with
pop, it is so fun always to hearit firsthand from you, to be

(16:57):
reminded of the place and timein your lives that you were at,
because you know, when I was 17,and you guys met and you
entered our world.
You know I had one viewpoint ofthat.
You know that meeting and thattime of my life.
It's so interesting now to beat that place yourself, to be at

(17:21):
that age myself that you guyswere when you met and started
dating, and there's so much nowthat reminds me of my own
relationship with Jason right.
Meeting as adults it's just sucha different experience than
meeting when you're young,pre--kids, pre-all.

(17:43):
You know all of that and soit's very fun for me to hear,
and to continue to hear, thatstory.
Thank you for sharing.
It's fun to hear it from youtoo, katie, and not Pop, because
we know the story.
But when we get to hear thestory from you and he's not
around, it's very heartfelt andit really was a beautiful story.

(18:03):
And I want it to be known toothat even though I was a
teenager living in the housethen I didn't throw the parties.

Katie (18:14):
I have to tell you, Erin, he said all of you guys.
So my dad did rat you out to mebut he never caught to calling
the police.
So I don't know who knows whatcould have been, but he never
acknowledged that calling thepolice.
So I don't know.

Erin (18:29):
Who knows.
.
.
we one to get caught.
It was fine.
And Kellie did throw theparties..
.
they just didn't get caughtbecause my life was threatened
if I told,so I wasn't going to say
anything.
So then nobody ever found out.

Kellie (18:45):
I think that was Scott who threatened your life.
.
.

Erin (18:48):
Likely.
h, goodness gracious.
This is so K atie.
Let's go all the way back toyour story.
You had 50 years of life beforepop and you have a beautiful
story.
Let's just start from thebeginning with your life and
your upbringing and your parents, how you grew up, some of your

(19:11):
favorite memories and maybe someof the life and living and
losses and love that shaped whoyou were at the time that you
met Pop and the two of you fellin love.

Katie (19:24):
Well, you know, it's interesting because when I
talked to your guy.
.
.

(Erin (19:27):
Chris Howard?
) Yes, Chris Howard.
So I talked to him at one pointin time and he asked me that
question, and so it's kind ofinteresting to go down that lane
, that path, in my life.
So I'll probably hit somesimilar points that I did then
just because, yeah, we haven'theard that interview, don't know
anything about it.
So I'll probably hit somesimilar points that I did then
just because, yeah,

Kellie (19:45):
Yeah, we haven't heard that interview.

Katie (19:48):
Oh, really?
Well, one thing that wasinteresting about it not to take
away from my story was thatit's amazing, the parallels of
your mother's life and mine.
And he said, no wonder Lewchose you, he kind of chose
Marsha.
So I had, you know, was a childof parents that had gone
through the Depression, throughWorld War II, and I was born in

(20:10):
45, basically when the war wasending.
And I still have telegraphswhere my mom telegraphed my dad
when he was on the Maginot linein France, and then his response
, you know it basically saidthat I was here, blah, blah,
blah.
And then his response, you knowit, basically said that I was
here, blah, blah, blah, but saidit from my point of view.
And then he wrote back and saidoh, congratulations, can't wait

(20:30):
to meet you, wow.
And so, anyway, I have those, Ihave telegraphs that went back
and forth, and so that's how myworld began.
We're right on the cusp of yourdad's always figuring this out,
exactly Kind of the greatestgeneration and baby boomers, and
there's one right in the middle, but anyway.
So my father came home from thewar and nowadays we would say

(20:51):
with very serious PTSD, he'dgotten two Bronze Stiers, silver
Star recommendations, you knowbig recommendations and all, and
he was kind of like a privateRyan kind of guy, if you saw
that movie where he went out anddrug a guy who had been shot
back and then went back out pastenemy lines, you know, did all

(21:12):
that kind of stuff, which means,as I say, he was pretty damaged
.
And so he raised my brother andI very military, with yes or no
sir, and he also was analcoholic, which a lot of men
came back with alcoholism, justlike Vietnam was a lot of drug
use.
So anyway, I used to be beatwith a belt for getting anything

(21:32):
under a B or I mean it wasrandom.
And then my mother had her ownmental issues.
She was bipolar and had beenoff on lithium, off and on.
And you know my mother, she canbe pretty fun and pretty crazy,
but some of that was real.
So anyway, we used to go to theEpiscopal Church In fact my
parents founded one in Denverand when I was young I memorized

(21:56):
the evening prayer service andso when things would be ugly,
you know, with them fighting orwhatever, I would just repeat, I
said it actually, I just saidit to myself every night so I
could go to sleep and I used tohave God bless everybody I knew
which.
That list grew by the time Iwas 21.
I can tell you though, at somepoint, I think, in my mind, God

(22:17):
really became my father.
I used to pray to him and Idrew a lot of strength from that
faith, and so I proceededthrough life.
My parents got a divorce.
My mother had a doublemastectomy.
I became her mother and mybrother's mother in many, many
ways.
.
.

Kellie (22:34):
Hey Katie how old were you when that happened, and did
your mom have cancer?
Is that why she got hermastectomy?

Katie (22:41):
She didn't have cancer, but that's why she had the
mastectomy.
At the time she was having lotsof discharges and tumors and
all kinds of things on herbreasts and getting like a half
cup of it Just you know what Imean.
Just a lot of stuff.
And so they did a radical, andthat was probably when I was
about 11 and my brother's, justa year and a half younger than

(23:01):
me and.
.
.

(Erin) (23:03):
How old were you and your parents divorced?
About 11.
Okay, so that happened at 11.

Kellie (23:08):
And then yeah, everything kind of kind of
happened at one yes and we kindof like what happened to us.
At about the same ages.
.
.
That's what I'm saying At aboutthe same ages.
City because my mother thoughther parents would be of support
and help, but they were olderand so they really weren't at
all.
And so then my father, you know, we visited my father and one

(23:30):
thing I can say is I always knewboth my parents loved me.
I never doubted that.
They loved me.
So even though they might'vehad some inappropriate behavior
or those kinds of things, Ithink at some point I learned to
separate behavior from theperson, and so that allowed me,
it allowed me to forgive justabout everybody, because if you

(23:52):
know, if you believe we'rechildren of God, then we all are
children of God in my mind, butsome have some pretty evil
behaviors and some prettydysfunctional behaviors.
But anyway, those were my ages,and so my father was willing to
pay for me to go to college,and so I went to college and
when I was 17, I graduated whenI was 17.

(24:13):
And I didn't turn 18 untilFebruary of my first year in
college and I wasn't veryfocused in college and I was
really kind of looking for amister, focused in college, and
I was really kind of looking fora mister.
Our generation was doing quitea bit of that.
But I met my kid's father and wehad four children together, and
one interesting thing that I'vethought of later in life is

(24:35):
that while we were married I wasmarried at 20.
And so while we were married,his parents became good friends
with my parents.
Mine were in Colorado, in themountains, and they were in
California, and so they wereflying out to see my parents,
but I didn't know that and theirplane crashed and so my in-laws
were killed when I was 23 andtheir dad was my ex-husband was

(24:58):
25.
And so my children grew upwithout either a grandmother or
a grandfather kind of like youguys, different circumstances,
but there just wasn't thatbalance that grandparents can
make such a difference in aperson's life, and I was always
kind of sorry that my kidsdidn't get to know them.
But what was interesting to me,as I say later on, was that

(25:22):
here I was married to a personwho lost both his parents and
then his brother just droppedover dead from a heart defect at
32.
My nephews were out in thefield working with him and they
were like 12 and 14, somethinglike that, and they were all
laying pipe and irrigating someland and he just disappeared and

(25:42):
then they searched for him andfound him and ran to the highway
to get help and all that kindof stuff.
But anyway, so talk about loss.
The first time I really saw orexperienced true loss was
particularly his parents,because we were the oldest of
four kids and so at 23, I becamea pseudo mother for his three

(26:04):
siblings, and one was in highschool, her 17, her junior year
and my parents both reached outto her in particular, but anyway
, so that was a big, just a bigeverything.
His parents had been a realcenter of the family.
So Tony, who was my kid's dad'sname, we tried to maintain that

(26:27):
whole family, particularly allthe siblings, but also the aunts
and uncles and grandparents andeverything.
And they were Portuguese and wemoved back there the year,
basically, that they were killed.
So I'm in the middle of the SanJoaquin Valley and had grown up
in a pretty white world, and sothere were the Mexicans, the
Portuguese, the Italians, theFrench Basques and the Okies,

(26:51):
and I was an Okie, but anywaythat marriage fell apart for a
lot.
I'm sure that their dad wastraumatized by all of his losses
and that was the way that hehandled it, and so I left him
and I had to have a way tosupport my kids.
So I went back to college andgot my bachelor's and my
master's and like three and ahalf years I took as many

(27:13):
credits I could every singlesemester and my first year there
.
By the end of the last semesterI had had a lot of things going
wrong with my breasts,including blood coming out of my
nipples and all kinds of stuff.
So I had a radical mastectomyat that time.
And so you know it was so hardon my kids and my mom worked so

(27:37):
she couldn't come.
But my stepmom took off of workand came and stayed with the
kids and at the time they wereexperimenting with if the cancer
hadn't really presented, thenif they removed all the tissue
and replaced it with anartificial breast that the
chances of my having cancer.
They had predicted it was an80% chance I would have cancer,

(28:00):
but by doing that they basicallyeliminated that as an option.
And of course, but by doing thatthey basically eliminated that
as an option.
And of course I'm thinking.
You know my kid's dad had a lotof issues and so I had to live.
You know I had to live, and solosing my breath became very
secondary, I wasn't realattached to him anyway.
So anyway, and you kind of justyou get through it Again.

(28:21):
I had faith.
So when I came, you know how Isaid earlier that I never wanted
to give up being that mom.
And so when I got home from thehospital, all the neighborhood
kids, they decorated our houseand had signs welcome home, mom.
Because they all called me momand they made me a cake.
It's a very touching memory.
So I'm sure you guys arestarting to see the trend of the

(28:43):
similarities of your lives andyour mother's life and my life.
It's really remarkable actually, isn't it?
Yeah, it really is.
Even down to the locations inthe country: California, Kansas
City, Leadville, Grand Junction.
Marcus and I did this.

(29:04):
We kind of chased each otheraround the country before we
actually finally crossed paths.
We kept saying, oh, we missedthere by two weeks or two months
or two years.
It's really funny.
Katie, can we go back realquick, because I knew the story
about Tony's parents dying inthe plane crash?

(29:24):
Had you started your family atthat point, or was this before
you started passing each otherin the hallway and had five
babies in five years?
And we're going to talk aboutthat because you lost your first
baby?
Yes, exactly Full term.
Yes, which is something thatyou and I share and something

(29:46):
that you really helped me withand through at that phase of my
life, which will come later.

Katie (29:53):
Kristine was a year and a half and Michele was six months
.
Then Nicole came, like almostnine months after his parents
plane crash.
We always wanted four children,but I don't think we would have
had them quite so closetogether, but I think in our
minds we were replacing one ofhis parents.
You know, I think there was apsychological thing that went on

(30:14):
there.
And when she was a girl becausein those days we didn't know
those things ahead of time Hermiddle name is his mother's
middle name.
And then along came TJ, the boywith three sisters, and so we
named him.
You know, we did thetraditional, the name Tony, like
his dad Anthony, but he had adifferent middle name.
So he was Anthony Joseph, orhis dad was Anthony John, but

(30:36):
yes, so then we had fourchildren.
And that's actually when ourfriends started asking us if we
walked down the hall with noclothes on and just bumped into
each other, and like us, if wewalked down the hall with no
clothes on and just bumped intoeach other.
And then I told him well, youknow what, when we figured it
out, we ended up getting adivorce.

Erin (30:57):
I would be really interested in putting some dates
and ages around some of thesemajor life events and so, yeah,
how old you were when you andTony divorced and the ages of
your kids during that time.

Katie (31:12):
So the divorce I remember I went back to college in like
82.
But the divorce had started ayear or so before, so, yeah, it
was right around 32.
Yeah, okay.
And then it had the doublemastectomy, right, and so I had
to go back to court next weekand a half and it was just so

(31:34):
physically hard to make myselfdo it, if that makes sense.
And I remember dragging mysuitcase through the airport and
almost crying because it justhurts and I'm only saying that
partly in relating to your mom.
You know it just hurts so bad.

Erin (31:49):
And I went and stayed with the person who actually became
my maid of honor for my weddingwith your dad, rhoda, and so I
stayed with her and I slept for24 hours when I got there.
You know you're just exhausted,yeah, so there's things in your
life that you influence becauseof your decisions that aren't
always good decisions, and mostof my life is filled with those.

(32:12):
I'm just saying I've hadcontrol of a lot of what's
happened in my life, you know,and I'm not saying there were
bad choices or good choices, I'mjust saying but things like
that impact your life, yourdecisions, and you've really had
nothing to do with that.
You know, it's just somethingthat you have to deal with the

(32:33):
best that you can.
Yes, so that was my age and Iwent back and finished when I
was like 26, 27, or 36, 37,sorry, and it was really
something else to graduate andto have you know, and this was
like, this was like 80, 1980.
And so it was really somethingto have these four little kids

(32:56):
standing up on their chairsclapping for me as I went across
the stage to get my diploma.
That was just one of those kindof highlights in life.
It was a highlight in myparents' life, especially my
dad's, because he used to saythat I was a third quarter
college dropout.
He used to tell all his friendsthat it was kind of yeah, to do
that in front of him and kindof, yes, I did do it, you know,

(33:16):
kind of.
So then I was just a single mom, raising my kids and being a
mom.
All those years.
They were involved in all kindsof things and you know, being a
true single mom.
You know where I'm.
My parents loved my kids, butyou know they already raised us
and so you know like teenagerswere something else really.
I don't know how many wreckedcars, smashed bumpers, you know

(33:40):
just all those kinds of thingsthat happened at the time.
But we had a good life, youknow, we had a good life
together.
We were blessed.

Kellie (34:10):
So you were out in California as a single mom and
got your degrees out there.

Katie (34:16):
No, Colorado.

Kellie (34:18):
So when did you come to Colorado from California?

Katie (34:21):
I did leave that part out , didn't I?
Well, for one thing, I was fromColorado, right, and so I miss
the mountains, I miss Colorado,if I'm going to have to.
Oh, I remember we did go tomarriage and counselor and they
said that I just had to build mylife around with you know, like
have my own life, and not havemy life involved with him at all
, which he was, you know he washad become an, an alcoholic.

(34:44):
He was in the bars all the time.
I kept a calendar one time andI think he was home one night
out of the month and he didn'tnecessarily spend the night, the
total night out, but he was outdrinking and he had other women
in his life.
And so I did just the oppositeof what you dream you're gonna
do like shoot him or back acamper against a garage and drop

(35:04):
a man there.
I imagined all kinds of things,but I wound up just letting him
move out and decide who hewanted and I finally said you
know what, if you can't chooseme, then you're choosing because
I'm the mother of your kids.
You know, in my mind it's veryhard, very hard to break up your
family, very hard to let thatgo, because, especially if you

(35:27):
come from divorce.
You don't want to repeat thatand you don't want your kids to
have to go through that, butanyway.
So yes, I was like 36.
And my degree was in.
Well, my initial degree was insociology, social studies,
psychology and education, andthen I had really wanted to
become a school counselor, andso my master's was in counseling

(35:48):
.
I could have used somebody thatI could have talked to when I
was going through myparticularly teenage years, and
so I wanted to be that personfor other kids.
You know my career wasdedicated to trying to make the
life of all kids better.

Kellie (36:04):
And you did a beautiful job with that, in the work that
you did, especially when Erinand I came into your life and we
got to know you and you were aschool principal.
But share with us the journeyfrom when you brought the kids
back to Colorado.
You were a single mom.
You'd had your surgery, you'dgone through the divorce.

(36:25):
So all of that loss was nowbehind you and you're planted
back in Colorado and you havesome incredible history with
Colorado, I know, with your dadand the mountains in Georgetown.
That's a whole episode in andof itself, but would love to
hear about your journey intoyour career at that point.

Katie (36:46):
Okay, so my first job, a school had actually interviewed
me and flew me down and wantedto hire me out of college, but
then when I moved down there,they didn't have a job for me,
partly because I was not a man,it was still that world so
because they needed coaches forfootball and things, and so you
know, that's just how it goes,and a lot of their marriage, a

(37:09):
lot of their degrees were insocial studies.
But my first job just tohighlight some of the things in
my actual counseling I wound upat a small school in Colorado
school district in Colorado.
That was about a 45 minutedrive, and so this is when
you're starting to incorporatejob career with poor kids that
are moving into preteens andwell, our preteens and moving

(37:32):
into high school.
And so, as a mother, at thattime, tj was in sports, michelle
played the piano and Nicoleplayed the piano and Christine
was a gymnast.
They all had their lessons inGreeley, colorado, and I lived
in Eaton, colorado, which was asmall town, and so I'm trying to
get home I got 45 minutes andthen take them all to all the

(37:56):
places they had to go, plus gowatch TJ's games or Michelle
played ball, you know, just allthe mom stuff and so.
So anyway, it was, it was abusy time and in my career they
let me teach half time and thenI was the school counselor for
the other half of the time.
So in my first year ofcounseling I had two kids commit
suicide and I was working withthe junior high kids and so yeah

(38:22):
, I kind of look back on thatwhen I said that and felt teary.
I ran a lot of groups when I wascounselor.
I had a lot of different groupsthat I ran in death and divorce
, child abuse, alcoholism, kidsyou know all kinds of things,
but this one girl.
There were several kids thatwere in my emotionally disturbed
group.
One of them the last day ofschool she brought shaving cream

(38:45):
to school and she was also inmy social studies class and so I
hadn't really seen a big changein her behavior.
But her mother had come out asgay and of course this was back
in the 80s and so I'm sure thatyou know she should talk to me
about it and it was a troublingtime.
But anyway, she was kicked outof school the last day because

(39:06):
she brought shaving cream.
I didn't really know that thathad happened.
You know when, the last momentsof the last day of school.
Things are happening all overthe place and so I wasn't real
aware of that, but anyway, thisother girl in my group her name
was Alicia she walked her home.
She was worried about herbecause Colleen was devastated,
and I guess all the way home shetold Alicia that she was going

(39:28):
to kill herself, and so whenthey got home Alicia thought she
had talked her out of it.
But Pauline actually hungherself because what she had
tied around her neck wasn'ttight enough.
So she just hung herself untilshe died.

Erin (39:43):
Oh tragic.

Katie (39:44):
So when we talk about dealing with death and all, I've
dealt with some reallydifficult in my first year.
And then soon after that therewas a boy who or during that
time frame, it might have beenbefore her he played Russian
roulette and he died.
Anyway, that led me into a lotof studying about suicide and

(40:04):
prevention and went toconferences with the top gurus
at the time to try to betterunderstand it.
You know that why?
You know, I mean, it's just,and, as you know, my son-in-law
just killed himself a couple ofyears ago.
So and then, just to continuethat little thread, alicia that
had walked with her would callme up all summer long and tell

(40:25):
me Pauline's told me to jump infront of a truck today, and so
then I'd call the schoolpsychologist, you know, and I
live 45 minutes away, but I waskind of her outlet.
She would talk to me like Iwould talk her out of it, talk
her down from it.
Somehow I was the lifeline.
Eventually I moved on in mycareer and moved out of that

(40:46):
town.
But I heard that her senioryear she finally poured gasoline
all over herself and setherself on fire and killed
herself.
Oh my goodness, yeah.
So you know we don't always knowthe pain people are in, no
matter how hard we try.
You just don't know and youdon't know people's ability to
withstand some of those things.
And find strength, as I say, Itruly found strength in my faith

(41:11):
and I learned to trust, totrust God and to trust the
universe, that everything youknow was going to be okay.
I mean, I didn't have somethinking that I you know that it
was going to go away oranything, but just you just
learn to trust that there'ssomething greater than you.
Working in your life and I'mkind of digressing a little bit
but in my life, every timelife's been difficult, I've

(41:35):
either had a situation or aperson come into it at just a
really critical time and helpedme through it.
You know, it could be like Igot a job when I was desperate
and it might not be the job Iwas dreaming of, but I got a job
.
But no, those were just tragic,tragic introductions to and, of
course, through the years youknow like in one of my

(41:57):
recommendations that I had outfor my 80th birthday, a
psychiatrist or psychologist,school psychologist, said that I
could get people to tell methings, not that I could get
them not manipulating, butpeople would tell me things that
they wouldn't could get themnot manipulating, but people
would tell me things that theywouldn't tell a soul.
So you know, that's kind of agift, but I frequently here it
comes back to faith.
There were times when I wastruly didn't know how to handle

(42:20):
a situation with the child.
I would actually sit there inmy office and ask God to work
through me and I just kind ofgive it to him because I really
didn't know what to say.
Or do you know, like a girl'sbeen raped by her father for the
last five years and she's onlylike 13 then and you know, not
growing up in that world, youknow there were constantly

(42:41):
things that a couple of thingsthat touched my heart when I was
a counselor.
There were two instances whereparole officers called me and
would say that they just wantedme to know that I was the only
person in the world that theirparolee thought and believed in
them.
I spent maybe three hours totalwith them and in that short a

(43:02):
period of time I made that kindof a difference.
Does that make sense?
Sorry, I'm getting into heavyduty stuff.
You might not have wanted toask this question.

Kellie (43:11):
No, Katie, these conversations are so important
and they're why Aaron and I feltso compelled on the heels of
working on the project whichwe're calling the Boxes right
now, and Our Mother's Legacy,why we wanted to start the
podcast, was to have thesebigger, broader conversations

(43:32):
about all aspects of life, oflove, of loss, and the legacy we
leave through how we live, andwhat do people recall and what
do they remember and what stayswith them after we're gone.
And that's everything that youjust talked about, and, honestly
, none of what you sharedalthough much of it is new to me

(43:52):
doesn't surprise me, becausepeople do come into your life at
just the right time for justthe right reason.
That's become a common theme,and you did the exact same thing
for us.
I think it was sad that our momhad to leave the earth as early
as she did, and she was bothmad and sad about that reality

(44:15):
and it was very difficult forher to say goodbye.
At the same time, there's alwaysbeen a piece of me and we've
had some differences and we'vehad some challenges and
obstacles to overcome, just likeany family that loves each
other does, and families thatare merging and come together
have to do.
But I've always believed thatif our mom could handpick

(44:36):
anybody to take on that big rolein the next phase of our life,
it would have been you, andthat's a big part of I know
where my faith comes in and mygratitude, my deep appreciation
for and connection to you,because you are a person who can
hear anything and, withpatience and gentleness and

(44:58):
kindness and love and wisdom,help guide through that.
And you have done that in somany ways for me personally, for
my children.
You have really stepped in anddone it for Erin and I in ways
and in places and times where weweren't sure how we were going
to figure it out with each other, and you were there for us.

(45:21):
And so none of that surprisesme.
That's just the beautiful partof who you are and the legacy
that you're living in this liferight now and we're lucky enough
to get to share it with you.

Erin (45:35):
I completely agree.
I was going to say the exactsame thing.
None of that surprises me.
My heart just breaks for allthat you've had to face and
endure and the tragedies to faceand endure and the tragedies,
but you handle everything inyour life with such grace and
wisdom and you know the thingsthat people have said about

(45:57):
entrusting you with secrets, andyou know deep conversations and
I mean I feel that it's who youare so loving.
It's who you are so loving, sonon-judgmental, full of love and
compassion and a safe space.
And it's wild because you maythink that you don't always know

(46:21):
what to say or have the answers, but 99% of the stuff I know
that I've personally entrustedyou with and brought to you and
needed help guiding through, youalways know just what to say.
You always have the mostperfect words at the most
perfect time and I think thatthat is who you are and that is

(46:41):
a gift.
Wherever that comes from right,and if that is inspired by your
faith or just the voices ofpeople that have spoken truth
into your life that you've thenjust held on to and and then
been able to capture those wordsand moments and pay it forward
and bless somebody else, it'sbeautiful.

Katie (47:04):
When I hear it from you two, i t's very humbling.
You know, I was thinking, whenKellie started talking, that
when I actually became yourstepmother I used to talk to
your mom sort of like I said Ibelieve in God.
I really didn't quite know howto be a stepmom, even though I
had a really good role modelwith Winnie in many ways but I

(47:25):
just wanted so much to be thebest person that I could be for
each one of you and I loved youfrom the beginning in terms of,
as I say, you're God's childrenand you're your mom and dad's
children, and I gave that to you.
You know how you just you starta relationship with that and I

(47:45):
knew that there's no way.
I guess I felt like you know,your mom sounds like she was an
amazing woman, not only just inher expertises and all of her
gifts.
There's no way I could competewith any of that.
And then also, I couldn't beyour mom Even though you were
only 17,.
You still had been off at highschool, and I'm trying to

(48:09):
remember the name of it.
.
.

(Erin) (48:10):
Yeah, Fountain Valley.
Yes, so you had been off atFountain Valley for several
years and learned to livewithout your mother or your
father in your everyday life.
You know, I know they were apart of your life.
I'm not suggesting that, butI'm just saying you'd learn to
live independently in a lot ofways.
And then Kellie's, this youngmother.
So I kind of went with, as Isay, talking to your mom and I'd

(48:33):
say, just guide me please.
You know, if it was a placethat was challenging or I didn't
know, I would just ask her toguide me.
And then I kind of was a mom toyou, the way I was a mom to my
kids, in the sense that I'd sewfor them or I'd cook for them.
You know, whatever, just try tobe there for your kids.
But I remembered, like makingtheir a black dress that you

(48:55):
wanted to wear.
I think it was to a collegething and you had knew exactly
what you wanted and so I made itfor you and it looked amazing
on you.
But for me that was giving mymother's love to you.
That was what I had to sharewith you, if that makes sense.
And then loving both of yourchildren.
We felt pretty strongly abouttreating everyone the same.

(49:16):
When we got married.
We agreed on it that we weregoing to treat everybody the
same as best we could and wehave.
I think we both did our verybest to do that and to love in
our way.
You know your dad loves and hascertain things that he does,
and I have certain things I do,and then you also discover

(49:38):
things in yourself, Like Idiscovered things in me.
I have to say that I didn'tnecessarily imagine what
amazingly wonderful people youtwo were and I always saw your
mother through each one of you.
I never really dreamt of howmuch you know I was just trying
to be this mother to you orfriend whatever, but I never

(49:59):
dreamt that I would reap thekind of love and gratitude that
I feel from you two and fromyour children.

Kellie (50:07):
Katie there's so much to unpack and thank you for all of
that.
You know, one of the ways thatI felt like our mother showed up
through you was through all ofthe things that you shared the
sewing, the cooking and as weaged at least for me when our
mom got her terminal diagnosis,I think that there was a part of

(50:31):
me, at the tender age of 23 andpreparing to get married, that
truly believed because she'dalready come through two cancer
diagnoses that she would alsocome through this one.
And in my youth and naivety andimmaturity you're so focused on

(50:53):
your own life.
You know you're in your early20s, you have all these dreams
and hopes and you're envisioningall these things for your life.
And my life was playing outpretty differently at that time
than I had planned oranticipated.
So I was pivoting.
But when she got her diagnosis,the hardest parts for me were

(51:15):
her sadness and anger and lackof understanding partially
because of her upbringing atwhat she had done so wrong in
her life that this was herpenance, which was hard.
But we were also just startingto become friends and I've
shared this with Aaron.
It's one of the things that hassaddened me the most about how

(51:38):
young she was when our mompassed, because she was just 17
and going into her senior yearof high school.
And when you stepped into ourlives, we had the chance to
develop a friendship, and so Igot all of these beautiful
aspects of the things that ourmother did all through our

(52:00):
upbringing the art, thecreativity, the sewing, the
cooking.
You were active, outgoing,intelligent, well-educated,
well-spoken, you loved to read.
You shared books.
I remember when you gave me theProphet by Kahil Gibran, and I
still read and love that book tothis day.
But you were also able to soeloquently but with your own

(52:25):
gifts and wisdom, step into thatplace of friendship, and that
has made a real impact in mylife.
So I thank you for that.

Erin (52:36):
I echo that, and we have talked so much about this that
the gift of you, Katie, gave methe opportunity to build a
relationship witha mom that wasn't my mom.
om You know?
And so there were so manythings that I missed out on with

(53:00):
her, but I got to have thosewith you and I wouldn't trade
that for anything.
You know we've talked so muchabout your timeline, right Ages
and experiences, but when youand Pop got married, I was 19.
It was right before my 20thbirthday and I'm the youngest of

(53:21):
the seven.
Right, right, I was the onlyone still a teenager.
They were all older.
Now I'm the only one in my 40s.
I like to rub that in everydeck every decade.
It's great.
I'm the only one still in my20s, I'm the only one still in
my 30s, and now here I am theonly one still in my 40s.

(53:43):
They're all old, but you know,our family blended, we all came
together, and especially thekids.
You know the seven of us kids,but we were all adults.
Everyone was out of the houseand you know, doing our thing,
and so I think there is anelement to that that, you know,

(54:03):
allowed us to have an adultrelationship from the getgo.
But that need to be mothered insome capacity never goes away.
I mean, I still feel that today,and I know that the two of you
do as well.
And so you did just strike thisincredible balance from the

(54:25):
beginning of mothering andfriendship, and the mothering
aspect from you was so, it wasso gentle and it felt so
intentional, and I think thatthat's probably a fair, even
assumption, to make on yourbehalf, because we had so many

(54:46):
conversations, especially inthose early years, where you
made sure to verbally expressthat you were not trying to
replace our mom and you did sucha beautiful job of keeping her
memory alive and talking abouther and incorporating her into
stories and traditions and allof that, and it was such a

(55:08):
beautiful thing.
And so from the beginning Ithink we knew where you stood
and we knew what your intentionswere and I had so much respect
for that Now I have way morerespect for that than I even did
back then, but it did allow meto open my heart and let you in

(55:28):
and, like Kellie said, it didn'tcome without some level of
difficulty at some level, atmoments blending families but
I've always held this immenseamount of gratitude and
recognition for who you havebeen in our lives and you've
just really held that role sobeautifully.

(55:48):
Thank you, I love you.

Katie (55:50):
I love you too.

(56:16):
What came to my mind when youguys were talking and talking
about our becoming a kind of aninstant family in its own way,
and I was thinking about howyour dad and I wouldn't have
gotten officially I mean, wewouldn't have had a big wedding
if it wasn't for our childrenbut both of us felt like we
needed to have something thatwas significant for all of you,
to kind of bond you and blendyou together.
It doesn't make everythingperfect, but you know what I

(56:37):
mean, and so I don't know if youguys remember or even knew.
I don't even know if my kids do, but in my bouquet it was very,
very intentional, because I hada wildflower for each one of
you, including one for Lori, andthen I had herbs around it on
the bottom.
That were our four parents.
They had nurtured your dad andI.

(56:58):
The whole wedding was verysymbolic and, as I say, it was
very intentional.
Didn't have anybody else, butit was just the seven of you
with whoever you were with atthe time and babies.

Kellie (57:12):
And and that's all a lot to unpack.
Still.

Erin (57:17):
I think we're gonna have many more episodes about this.
.
.

Katie (57:22):
I remember having little gifts in each one of your rooms
and for you two.
I always knew that there's aside of it.
That could have been verydifficult because your mom
hadn't been gone that long,really, when your dad and I met,
but you just jumped in withboth feet and all of you, you
know we've got that whole, likeyou said, our whole Oprah of

(57:43):
stories with you and TJ and thisand that you know.
So we've got lots of stories ofdifferent things that happened
that demonstrated family.
But we put a lot of emotionalenergy into trying to blend our
family at least to where theycould all look at each other
with another person to have yourback as much as anything.

(58:04):
You know another person thatwould be there for any of you
and I know that.
You know my children have feltstrong friendships with both of
you, so it worked, especiallyfor not living together.
You know if you, if you livetogether for a while, you just
have a lot of different kinds ofmemory.

Kellie (58:21):
And that comes with all of its own circumstances too,
right, you know, one of thethings that I have kind of been
grateful for as an adult is thatwe all did come together as
adults and we were an instantfamily.
When Aaron and I came togetherwith mom, with pop and Scott, we
were all younger and so we didall live together in the same

(58:43):
house.
It was a beautiful experience,but it also had its.
It came with its moments and,on the heels of losing Lori in
that car accident, there wasalso a lot of grief in the
household during that period oftime to just establishing a new
normal.
As you were talking, katie, Iwas thinking about our inside

(59:05):
family joke that we have afamily bush, not a family tree,
and I love to think in parables.
And as I was thinking aboutthat family bush and as much as
I love to garden and you and Ihave that in common and Erin
with her succulents, we all havethat in common it's both the

(59:26):
pruning and the nurturing thatbuilds strong roots.
And we came together, our littlefamily bush, and over the
course of all of these almost 30years there's been a lot of
pruning.
We've lost children, we've lostmarriages, we've lost family
members, we've lost health,we've lost memory, we've lost

(59:49):
eyesight, youth eyesight.
There's a lot of loss.
That all comes with its owngrief, but it's through both the
nurturing and the pruning thatI feel as a family.
While we may not be in touchwith each other especially the
seven of us as children everysingle day, day in and day out,

(01:00:10):
there is strength.
We are robust, we are reallyrooted.
We have this incredible core ofyou and pop and all of these
offshoots, and now we have ourchildren, who have the most
beautiful relationship with youand Pop, and I will speak just
for our four children love youto the moon and back times a

(01:00:35):
thousand.
And now, with all of themstarting to have children and
watching you and Pop enter thatnext phase of your life, as we
are entering the next phase ofour life, and looking to you for
guidance and wisdom and alsolooking at you with respect,

(01:00:56):
appreciation, some apologies forpast behaviors.
Quite honestly, the number ofconversations that Marcus and I
have when something happens withone of the kids we're like, oh,
I imagine when Pop and Katie,they probably sat out on the
porch and had the sameconversation about us that we're

(01:01:19):
having about ours right now.

Erin (01:01:23):
Yep.

Kellie (01:01:26):
To me, that's family and that is one of the greatest
gifts of being a part of thisfamily and I hope that anybody
listening to our podcast in thisjourney that Aaron and I are on
, and all of the friends andfamily and people we don't know
that we're bringing in andhaving these conversations, just

(01:01:46):
gain some little bit ofperspective or hope or
connection in hearing thestories that are being shared
here and helping that kind ofconnect to their own journey in
life and their own experiencesand their own stories,
especially for people who arestruggling with grief over

(01:02:07):
whatever their losses are thatthese stories just inspire at
some level, because I continueto be inspired every single day
by our own family.

Erin (01:02:19):
Yeah, it's totally true.
You know what else isinteresting?
I just want to touch on thisreally fast and not spend a lot
of time, but piggybacking off ofwhat you just said, Kellie,
about how, yeah, you know, wewere young and when Pop married
Mom and brought Scott into thatmarriage and we had this
beautiful blending of our family, right, and so we just grew up

(01:02:40):
thinking that that's whatblended families look like,
that's normal, everybody justcomes together so perfectly, and
then we both got divorced,right.
But then, Katie, you come intothe picture with your four kids
and you had been married anddivorced before and you know,
came in with these kids and thismindset and these conversations

(01:03:06):
with Pop about what was reallyimportant and what were kind of
non-negotiables and what youwanted to build your family on.
And I can't help but just havethis side conversation and think
about I went through my firstdivorce from my kid's dad and
then, pretty hot on the heels ofthat, went into a second

(01:03:28):
marriage and I had reallygrandiose expectations, I guess,
of what that was going to looklike and thinking, oh, I can do
this.
I'm a product of blendedfamilies.
I know exactly what this issupposed to look like.

Kellie (01:03:48):
It took me almost a year of counseling after getting
together with my second marriage, Erin, to realize after the
counselor said to me probablyyou know 50 or more times, you
realize that's not normal, right?

Erin (01:04:03):
Yeah, right.
And I knew that.
But I still found myself inthis second marriage with my two
you know teenage boys andbecoming the stepmom to three
teenage boys and thinking tomyself that I knew, I knew what
I was doing and I had thesebeautiful models of blended

(01:04:27):
families and what life wassupposed to look like and it was
really great until it was not.
And I remember the heartacheand the struggle that I faced
when my second marriage wasending in thinking how, how did
that happen?

(01:04:47):
Like, how did that fail?
Like I knew what I was supposedto do and I thought I, you know
, blending families was easy forpeople like me and just had
these, just this vision of whatblending families and life was
going to look like.
And then it did not look likethat and I struggled with so

(01:05:08):
much, with so many feelings offailure and disappointment and
the pain that I had exposed mykids to right and so much regret
.
And some of the most beautifulconversations and the time that
I felt most held by my familywas when I was walking through

(01:05:30):
that and I had the two of youand the rest of our family
saying what we experienced theblending of our families that's
atypical and I just felt soloved and supported through a
season of my life where I hadthese big, beautiful visions of

(01:05:52):
what family is and looks likeand then my family unit just
kind of fell apart at that time.
I can look back on it now withvery different eyes and
recognize so much of it for whatit was, but at the time it felt
so defeating and I'm sograteful that I had the love and

(01:06:15):
the wisdom from people who'dwalked through so many of those
life experiences before me tosay, one, you're going to be
okay and two, we've got you.
And I felt that so strongly fromyou and from your kids.
You know, we've kind of alwaysnever really used the word step

(01:06:37):
in our family, right?
Like those are my sisters andbrother, and so I felt so loved
and supported from my family.
And that's just one example ofcountless, many of births and
graduations and, you know, allsorts of life events that we've
all just been present for eachother, for, even if we're not
physically present, that we'vejust always been a champion for

(01:07:00):
each other and we've always hadeach other's backs.
And I have known without ashadow of a doubt that there is
a list of people that I couldcall for anything anytime, and
I'm so grateful for what youhave modeled in a true family

(01:07:21):
and what that looks like andwhat that feels like.
Carry on Kellie.
.
.

Kellie (01:07:25):
Well, the visual part of that was us all holding up
hearts to each other because wehad no words.
You know, Katie, we have, asthat family, navigated a lot of
grief, but also a lot of growthand new beginnings with each
other.
What did it feel like, fromyour perspective to become a mom

(01:07:48):
of three grown children?

Katie (01:07:51):
So are you talking about from the beginning or today?

Kellie (01:07:55):
Let's talk from the beginning, because that leads
into today.
I think that there's suchbeautiful perspective of how we
initially all came together.
We had to navigate a lot duringthat time because we were nine
adults and here we are, 30 yearsdown the road, all with

(01:08:19):
families of our own.
Many of us have becomegrandparents now and in those
three decades together we haveall navigated a lot of life
experience and a lot of loss.
We've had to love and supportand nurture each other through
some really difficult andchallenging times, but again,

(01:08:40):
we've always maintained ourroots.
We've all stayed part of thisreally big, beautiful, growing
family bush part of this reallybig, beautiful, growing family
bush.

Katie (01:08:52):
I think that in the very beginning it was really easy for
me to embrace you as Lew'schildren, or Pop's children, you
know, whatever you want torefer to him, because I embraced
him and so, probably because ofour previous conversations, in
our choosing to get marriedthere was almost simultaneously
the choice to bring you into myheart, bring you into my life.
And so in the very beginning Iwould say and it's probably a

(01:09:15):
little bit the same with all youkids is that my children
embraced your dad, partlybecause I loved your dad and
they saw him as somebody good inmy life.
And so I'd say in the verybeginning, that sort of set the
stage and I knew good and well,and partly because of Whitney
that being a friend.
But then, as time's gone by,I've had some amazing

(01:09:37):
conversations with you girls,each of you as you've gone
through your lives and yourexperiences, and also observing
your different strengths andtalents emerge and develop and
then watching you both reallybecome yourselves, if that makes
sense.
You know, in the very beginningyou were kids that had lost
your mom, you were her children.

(01:09:59):
So in the very beginning youwere children who had lost your
mom.
So many emotions, going throughthat.
And then you've gone through,as you say, divorces, having
children, careers, you know allsorts of things.
But as we've gotten into thelast, say, five years, it's kind
of interesting in some ways totalk to you sort of as a mom,

(01:10:21):
because we've been together for30 years, so I've watched you
grow up and do all of thesethings and go through these
things.
And I found myself, for instance, with Erin, when she was going
through the number two divorcehey, look at this.
I said, look at who you are,look at who you've been.
This was kind of a no-brainerfrom my perspective, but because

(01:10:44):
of my own life and you knowI've gone through the same thing
and I know what that feels likeand you can lose your faith in
yourself, you can lose yourfaith in anything that you had
faith in.
So I guess you know the bottomline is that we can have those
conversations, we have the kindof relationship that when things
are really tough, that we canprocess together, that we can

(01:11:04):
talk, and that's about as closeto being a mom as you can be and
also the way that your childrenlove me and the way they're so
good to me.
You both have taught your kidsto appreciate me and now you
know I'm getting older.
I'm just seeing that.
I know I'm not your mother but,if this makes sense, I feel

(01:11:25):
more like a mother than I did 30years ago.
Does that make sense?

Erin (01:11:28):
Mm-hmm.
Well, that's just reallybeautiful.
I love that you see yourselfthat way.

Kellie (01:11:56):
Now that we have celebrated your 80th birthday.
.
.
and kudos to you, Katie.
I have to brag on you realquick.
First of all, you went skiingin Flagstaff on your 80th
birthday, came out of thatexperience with a hairline
fracture and just a few weekslater went hiking in Utah for

(01:12:17):
your 80th birthday trip with Pop, went home and continue to work
on your gardens and yourflowers and your tree-studded
hillside where you planted allthe trees, that you pulled out
all the blackberry bushes byhand.
Honest to goodness, you are aforce of nature and we love

(01:12:39):
celebrating how much you do, howactive you are.
You continue to work.
Pop continues to work.
I love that.
He's driving a school bus andengaging with all of those kids
on a daily basis.
I think it's amazing.
You've never slowed down.
Your memory is great.
You're still so activelyinvolved in your community and

(01:13:01):
in every single one of our lives.
What have been some of yourfavorite funny, standout, even
difficult or hard memories overthe last 30 years of all of us
together as a family?

Katie (01:13:17):
Well, the birth of all of your children, because I was
there for everyone except forLily and Michael, for Reese or
for Finn.
But just being present there andbeing present there to watch
all of you become young parentsyourselves, that was very joyful
.
And then of course, you knowthe story of Aaron visiting TJ
when he was a rookie cop and herbeing this child that was

(01:13:41):
testing all the boundaries atthat time.
That agony he went throughbecause he was a brand new
brother trying to keep you safewhen you wanted to go to Venice
Beach, and he was so stressedbecause he didn't want Pop to
get mad at him.
But for me it's a really funmemory and to hear either one of
you tell it is just fun for me.
Yeah, kelly, seeing thedolphins off the boat in Florida

(01:14:05):
.
We were driving all night andso you guys were on duty and you
came and got us and that wasone of the most spiritual I
can't even describe it and toshare that and to have the
memory of sharing that, if thatmakes sense oh, it does.
That was an incredible moment intime, it was yeah.
And so you know that's ahighlight.

(01:14:25):
And then, of course, watchingErin graduate from college.
And I knew about Erinngraduating from high school
because your dad showed me thepictures of the dress that he
helped pick out and pictures ofher with the flowers on her hair
and all that.
So, even though I wasn't inyour world yet, he showed me all
those things as they happened.
I was really proud.

(01:14:46):
Pop's 70th birthday and havingvirtually everybody there I mean
the joking that went alongbetween all of you.

Kellie (01:14:56):
All packing into large Marge to go to Casa Bonita!?
!

Katie (01:15:02):
Exactly! I was just looking at that.
I was actually did Logan's bookand so I have a.
There was a picture, you know,of everybody packed in that I.
It's just so fun and when weactually do get together it gets
crazy.
In fact, sometimes I used tofeel sorry for you and Aaron,
because you're both kind ofquiet and gentle and peaceful.
You know, just in everything.

(01:15:24):
And between Scott and my fourkids Nicole wasn't rowdy, but
three of my kids and Scott, Imean it got wild, and then Jason
too.
Oh my gosh, it used to getreally wild and funny and
innocent, you know, nothing bad,but just a fun, crazy family
that all you guys made.
So you know, there are thosemoments, like the picture of my

(01:15:47):
dad on his 90th birthday.
We had Charles and Hadley andJordan.
I'm not sure if Jordan wasthere, but anyway they were
screaming, crying.
There were three of the babiesand everybody's on my dad's lap
on this big couch.
The babies are just crying.
And there's a picture of my dadand he plugged his ears for the
fifth picture and Reis is overhere and he is about ready to

(01:16:10):
split a gut he's laughing sohard.
And then we were at thatspecial weekend in Denver.
I think there was a group therethat had a big gathering.
That was very different.
Watching the kids and theirfaces as they go up and down the
elevator, I have to say and Ifrequently say it to my friends
is that being a part of thisfamily, it's just part of what

(01:16:32):
makes getting old, gives youenergy, you know.
Then they talk about the thingspeople need to include in their
lifestyle to be healthyphysically, mentally,
emotionally and all that.
Trust me, your dad and I readthem all the time, make sure
we're up on it and we aren'tfalling behind on any.
But I have to say that a lot ofthe motivation and what kind of

(01:16:53):
keeps us young is having thefamily that we have and having
them love us and their kids loveus.
And the grandchildren arereally an amazing joy because
they're still young.
You know, like when Logan tookcare of my brother as a young
family and it changed Bruce'slife to be living with younger
people that are vibrant, thathave got children, and you know

(01:17:15):
we're really lucky because it'spretty much never ending.
Our friends are all kind ofjealous because we're just not
available frequently.
As I say, the grandkids,especially your kids they stay
in touch and that keeps youyoung.
Even if they don't write mesomething, they respond when I
write them things and it's justattitude.

(01:17:36):
You know, I really believe thatalmost all of life is attitude
and I've kind of always livedthat way.
I used to have a live with a lotof different posters in my
house during the 60s and 70s,and you've probably seen some,
but one of my favorite was thisis beginning of a new day.
You can waste it or you cangrow in its light and be of
service to others.

(01:17:57):
And then it says just becareful what you choose.
You know how you choose to makethis day.
And then it says just becareful what you choose.
You know how you choose to makethis day.
I've just not ever really madelike when I went through my
mastectomy and I went through,you know, hysterectomy and I
went through losing the baby andjust all the different kinds of
things that have happened in mylife.
I've never made them be moreimportant than gratitude for

(01:18:21):
being alive, if that makes sense.
Like I've never been the personto say I had a bad day, because
I'm saying, you know, becauseyou had that one really shitty
thing happen, it doesn't have tomake the whole day bad, and I
always, every morning I get upand I thank God and I just say
and it's repetitive and so it'snot as magical but I just thank
him for the day, for my life andfor his love, and that's just

(01:18:42):
how I live my life.
And I'm referring partly towhat Kelly was talking about,
because I've been pretty sickSounds like you have too.
I was coughing so bad that Iblew out my eardrum and so you
know you've got all this stuffgoing on and you're just sick
for a couple of weeks and itfeels whelmy, but I couldn't

(01:19:05):
wait to get out in my yard andpull weeds and part of it is
just kind of showing I'm aliveand like cleaning houses.
It's so gratifying and it hasno responsibility.
You're responsible, you don'twant to break anything, but it
just again makes me feel likeI'm doing something worthwhile.
Yeah, it's cleaning houses, butI'm just full of gratitude that
my boss will hire an 80 yearold woman.
When I think about it, a lot ofmy boss will hire an
80-year-old woman.

(01:19:25):
When I think about it, a lot ofmy life is very intentional.

Kellie (01:19:27):
I don't know if that makes sense, but it just is.
It makes a lot of sense andit's really beautiful and you
and Pop are doing it togetherand navigating it together.

Katie (01:19:35):
We're probably closer than we've ever been.
I was actually going to ask youif you could share with us how,
with all of us grown and goneand raising families of our own
and going through our own manylife experiences and now going
through experiences with our ownchildren and grandchildren that

(01:19:58):
come with its own obligationsof time and energy and effort
and commitment and wisdom andtrying our hardest to pay that
forward If we can get a sneakpeek into the life that you and
pop are enjoying in these reallysweet and special years.
Well, you know, it's been anamazing journey and all the

(01:20:19):
things that you've talked aboutin terms of challenges through
the years have brought out ourstrengths and our weaknesses.
And you know, your dad I didn'teven know this until two years
ago, it was an interestingrevelation, but it made sense
Said that all these years he'sbeen afraid of losing me because

(01:20:40):
he said he's lost your mom,he's been afraid of losing me
because he said he's lost yourmom, he lost his mom, he lost
Laurie, and he said he hadn'treally let himself love me until
just five years ago.
And we've married 30.
That doesn't mean he wasn'tgood to me, it didn't mean we
didn't have fun.
It doesn't mean a lot of things, but it kind of tells you where
we've been.
And I am a very independent,ornery person.

(01:21:02):
I mean I was single all thoseyears.
I wouldn't have made it throughmy life if I wasn't those
things, and I don't need to becoddled.
All you need is someone wholoves you, right.
But since he went through thatand I'm sure part of it is our
age or you know, I can't tellyou what, but we're actually
broken down as human beings intomore being equals.

(01:21:25):
It's like now we are sharing atime in our life that we only
can share with each other.
If that makes sense Doesn'tmean we don't love our kids and
all those.
I'm talking about ourrelationship, and we've really
begun.
It's like, don't sweat thesmall stuff.
We've true that out I don'tknow about seven years ago,

(01:21:46):
because we could get into ourtoothpaste wars.
And I'm not trying to becritical of our past.
I don't want you to think that,but it feels very different to
feel love like full on love, andso for me in my life it
couldn't have happened at abetter time because you really
do need each other.

(01:22:06):
Now we're just I can't evenexplain it, but it's.
It's very, very tender, it'svery sweet, it's very real.
You know, before we started towork, we had sold our boat and
that had been a huge part of ourlife.
It was our family, our finance.
People always said your kidsand your family are the boat.
One of them's got to go and sowe wound up selling the boat.

(01:22:29):
So anyway, we kind of were lost, and it's been a very
interesting transition for us tonot really be needed.
You guys, as you said, you'reparenting your own children.
Now your grandparents are yourown grandchildren.
They need you, like you neededus, and as much as you call us

(01:22:49):
or are thoughtful or you knowthose kinds of things, it's a
fact.
It's kind of like if you guysare being good grandparents and
good parents, we've done our job.
So it's a sign that we wererole models.
So now it's just kind of us.
We're actually act more likechildren, which could be our
brains I mean, it could bedementia, I don't know.
We tease all the time.

(01:23:09):
It's like the weight of theworld has kind of come off our
shoulders in some ways, I guess,and we're just down to the
simple act of taking care ofeach other.
In fact, christine, when shewas here last year, she said you
know, when I came here I wasthinking that somebody's going
to have to start really helpingyou two out, and then I saw how

(01:23:29):
you're filling in for one oneach other and how you're taking
care of each other and youdon't need anyone.
You know what I mean.
Like a big interview, we're notready for that yet.
But also when we were sittingthere having this conversation,
we both were feeling worthlessand that's very hard to go
through for the two of us andwe're going through it at the

(01:23:50):
same time.
And so I said you know, I'mgoing to, I'm just going to get
a job I need to do.
I mean, I cannot sit around allday long and do nothing.
You know, I'm just not thatperson.
I don't play bridge, I don't doany of that, those kinds of
things.
I'm not a big shopper.
So I just decided to startcleaning the RBOs because it
keeps me in shape and I get paidfor it.

(01:24:10):
And we both had volunteered alot.
You know, I was on boards andthen he was doing island rides
where he was taking people toget their groceries, and our
finances had gotten pretty tight.
So we said, well, let's just goout and make money.
And so I got my job and then hedecided to try for a bus
driver's job.
It was an amazingtransformation, all that he had

(01:24:32):
to accomplish to be a bus driver.
It's actually pretty mentallyand emotionally challenging, and
he accomplished that which heneeds to be learning you know,
at a whole different level.
I learn every day and I've saidoften to my kids, I've said you
know what, the day that I don'tstop learning, just might as

(01:24:53):
well shoot me, because you haveto keep alive and you have to
find different things to makeyou feel alive.
And it's very different.
We all know we could die anyalive and it's very different.
We all know we could die anyday, but it's very different to
know that there is an end tothis and that you're on the
downward slide.
I don't know if that answersyour question, but I couldn't
have asked for a better husband.

(01:25:15):
Every day I feel so blessed withevery single person in our
lives All of our children, allof them and so proud person in
our lives All of our children,all of them and so proud.
And you know, we're just soblessed because we don't have
any grandchildren that are heavyinto drugs or they're all good
kids and that's kind of what weall want is for them to be
productive, happy, and they allare.

(01:25:35):
You know, you imagine two oldpeople sitting there and looking
back and to know that we'veshared all that and continue to
share it just makes life so, soworth it.
But we're fortunate because weboth are pretty energetic and
we're healthy and we're activeand always have been, and so we
get to be on almost equalfooting.

(01:25:56):
I just couldn't ask for more.
Every day I'm married to himhe's more amazing to me.
You know that I attractedsomeone like him and that he's
been happy all these years.
It just means a lot, and I'vetold my friends, you know, at
different times, just when we'rekind of girl talk, I just say I
just couldn't have asked for abetter husband or a better

(01:26:17):
partner.

Kellie (01:26:19):
That is an extraordinary gift and, as daughters,
especially the journey thatwe've taken with Pop through the
years especially him adoptingboth of us that makes our hearts
really, really happy too.

Katie (01:26:34):
I think we both are more in love with each other than the
day you know, and you know thatfrom being in relationships,
but we are, I think every daynow we're more in love and more
in tune with each other.
If you're going to do it inlife, this is a nice time to be
doing it.

Erin (01:26:50):
Absolutely.
Oh, I love that so much.
I also love how you give thatto all of us.
All the kids, all the grandkids, all the great grandkids.
And as relationships have comeand gone and people come and go,
you just embrace everybody.

(01:27:10):
Your love is just seeminglyendless.
The care and compassion thatyou show as we've had blended
families, you know of our ownand the ways that you've
embraced additional kids andgrandkids and great grandkids is
pretty special.
That's very unique.

Katie (01:27:29):
Well, I don't know, I just know that you know, it kind
of goes from me and I in thevery beginning If you love
someone, if someone's good toyou, if someone makes you happy,
then we love them.
That make sense.
Yeah, it's sort of like, in thevery beginning you accepted me
because you loved your dad andmy kids accepted him because he
loved me.
Well, now, whoever you bringinto your life, it's expanded Do

(01:27:53):
you know what I'm saying?
It's expanded now to where welove and take these people into
our beings almost.
I mean, you know, and takethese people into our beings
almost.
I mean you know, it's just funnyhow I'm sure you're feeling it
with your own kids but youreally feel a love for someone
who loves your child, you know,and who's good to your child,
like Molly or Marcus or any ofthem, you know.

(01:28:15):
You just love them.
And then but it's veryinteresting to me over time
because I've had a bit ofexperience when our child gets a
divorce, I can cut thatrelationship and they're not in
my life anymore.
I don't give that person anymore of my energy, you know, and
it's not because I don't likethem, but it's just they're gone
from your life.
They're gone from my lifebecause you're the person that I

(01:28:37):
care about and you're theperson that I love.

Erin (01:28:49):
Well, and I think that that's what is so amazing about
that statement, and what we feelfrom you is that, for me, I
just don't question where yourloyalty lies.
I know that your loyalty lieswith me, and so it's so
comforting and reassuring toknow that, regardless of what
happens, that that relationshipis secure and I don't have to
question that.
And I know that I have a safeplace to fall when I need to

(01:29:10):
fall, and I have, you know, mybiggest cheerleaders when I want
to celebrate and just want loveand support and encouragement
you know, for positive thingslike you guys are always the
first people.
I want to share something fun.
Yeah, absolutely.
But you guys model that, theloyalty that you have to all of

(01:29:31):
us, in such an incredible waythat I don't think any of us
ever questioned that.

Katie (01:29:36):
I hope not.
Yeah, I hope not.
That would be a feeling offailure for me.

Kellie (01:29:40):
Katie, I have a kind of a fun question.

Katie (01:29:43):
That sounds good.

Kellie (01:29:46):
This has all been fun.

Katie (01:29:48):
No, it has been.
It's been great.

Kellie (01:29:49):
You know that Erin and I are working on a legacy project
from the boxes that our momleft as her legacy to her
children left as her legacy toher children, and one of the fun
stories in that is Pop beingthe keeper of the secret boxes

(01:30:10):
and we didn't know anythingabout them until they started
being distributed.
And you were reallyinstrumental in ensuring the
safety and security and locationof the boxes so they could be
delivered according to herwishes and her directives, and
Pop has shared, with a lot oflaughter and gratitude, your

(01:30:36):
role in the times that you weretraveling and living in the
Bahamas on the boat and movingto different locations, you know
, between Colorado and OrcasIsland.
Is there anything that youwould love to share about how
that experience was for you?

Katie (01:30:55):
The first one that I was there for was when Erin got a
ring, and I think it was for her18th birthday.
Yep, you're exactly right, yep.
And she got a beautiful ring,and I was really an outsider at
that time I mean, it's brand newinto you guys' world but I
remember being there and beingpresent and watching you open it
up and, of course, the emotionswere still so intense at that

(01:31:18):
time.
I just remember feeling reallytouched by all of it.
That is something I probablywould have done.
It's kind of interesting, butI'm kind of that sentimental.
My main thing, that is reallyimportant.
It's one reason that I make thebooks for which your boys are
getting them still, and so isLily poor Lily, lily's next on

(01:31:38):
the list now that I got Logandone.
But I just really want peopleto know how much they've meant
to me and how much I've lovedthem, and so your mom giving you
those boxes is an example ofsomething that I can imagine
myself doing.
I haven't ever had to.
The funny part of it is, oh myGod, one time I think it was a

(01:32:02):
Rolex watch was misplaced and wewere getting down towards the
end, and so it was harder andharder to keep them all.
But he'd have them, you know,on the boat.
He'd have them in a drawer orsomewhere, and different places,
but then he'd panic.
You know how when you think ofsomething nice and safe and then
when you need it you can't findit anywhere, well, he would

(01:32:23):
stress out because he made apromise, it was important to
your mom and it was important tohim to follow through.
You know there'd be moments ofjust panicking.
You know, we've got to find thebox.
We've got to find the box.
We've got to find the box.
It was fun, you know, inreference to what Kelly's saying
, but it was actually probablymore, much more touching and

(01:32:45):
real.
You know, like, for instance,when he gave you the gift for
your wedding and for a lot ofthem after that one ring, I
really wasn't there.
He did a lot of those thingskind of privately with you, as
he should have.
But seeing pictures of some ofthose moments, you know, brings
tears to my eyes and so I guessthe bottom line is just that I

(01:33:06):
thought it was really touching.
Every time you, you know, hadthings and there were many times
, to be honest, it's thestrangest thing, especially in
kind of the early months, Iwould feel guilty for being
alive and that your mama had.
Your mother had left you too,and I just feel sorry that she
was gone from you, because Iknew how much she meant.

Erin (01:33:27):
Thank you.
Katie, I have never felt that.
I have never felt that I wouldhave traded one relationship for
the other.
I think Kelly said it sobeautifully in the beginning,
which is, you know, we were sograteful that our mom was our
mom and we're so grateful forthe years that we had with her

(01:33:51):
right 17 for me and 24 for Kellyand regardless of her life or
how long she would have livedlike it's never enough time and
I think that you could speak tothat with the loss of your
parents as well.
Right, like it, just it's neverenough time.
You could have a whole lifetimeof time and it wouldn't be

(01:34:12):
enough.
And so I hold immense gratitudefor her being my mom and her
life and giving me the gift ofmy sister.
But I am really grateful thatyou came on the scene when you
did and that you have been whoyou are in my life, in my kids'
lives, in our lives.

(01:34:33):
I've never felt any other waythan that.
So I want you to know how muchwe value you and your life and
when you entered ours.

Kellie (01:34:44):
And the time that we have with you will not be enough
.

(Erin) (01:34:48):
True.

(Kellie) (01:34:48):
I t'll be the same with Pop.
Katie, as we wrap up today, aswe celebrate Mother's Day and
the love we have for both of ourmoms, is there anything that
you would like to share, as amother, when it comes to living

(01:35:08):
life, navigating love, makingyour way through loss and
leaving a legacy?

Katie (01:35:15):
I think I've pretty well talked about that in different
ways.
But in terms of Mother's Dayitself, after I had my double
mastectomy and I was down inDenver and my kids were up in
Gunnison waiting, I took themeach home a pet, because I said,
of course you did, and then Igot to take care of them, right?

(01:35:37):
But I was trying to gift mychildren for giving me the gift
of being a mother and now youtwo are giving me a very, very,
very special moment as a motherin this podcast and I have one
of my little fun sayings on myscreen that goes by, that says

(01:35:57):
that it's not what you've done,it's not blah blah.
I can't tell you all that, it'sa common saying, but it's who I
raised and I've always saidthat that was the most
fulfilling and gratifying andhumbling thing that I've ever
encountered in my life.
And I've gotten to be a mom indifferent forms which has just

(01:36:19):
expanded motherhood to a wholenother level by having you and
Scott and Erin in my life, andmy kids are all aware of that
and are totally supportive.
I just think that mothers andchildren just need to embrace
the children in their lives andthe love of those children and,
as I say, it's the mostimportant thing I've ever done

(01:36:41):
in my life.

Erin (01:36:42):
Thank you, Katie.
You know, Kellie and I,throughout this project and in
every episode, we talk about thePIG and the meaning behind it

(01:37:05):
us launching this podcast andthe way that we live our lives
through that being really drivenby purpose, intention and
gratitude.
That's our P-I-G at the core ofeverything that we do.
We have lots of other P wordsand I words and G words, but we
do like to talk to all of ourguests about that and, of course
, you are no different and Idon't know if you have any words
that resonate with you.
Do you have any P, I or G wordsthat you feel led to share?

Katie (01:37:31):
Well, I kind of come from a different point of view with
P I G, because I remember yourmom's collection of pigs.
She had every, every kind ofpig.
I actually think of your momand you living out her legacy.
And then you're living out herlegacy also through other people
and their legacies.

(01:37:53):
And so I kind of see your mom asthe springboard for all of this
as it comes through YouTube.
So I don't think there's anyway I could have more wisdom
than you three do about PIG,because I think you guys have it
pretty well nailed.

Kellie (01:38:11):
Pop is great! Yeah, he'll vote for that!

Erin (01:38:16):
Nailed it.
Perfect.

Kellie (01:38:20):
Pop is goofy!

Katie (01:38:22):
He is goofy.
Yes!

Kellie (01:38:24):
Pop is grandpa.

Erin (01:38:26):
Hilarious, that's perfect actually.

Katie (01:38:29):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of more words.

Kellie (01:38:34):
Katie, thank you for sharing this time with us today.
Thank you for being soinstrumental in our lives, in
our sisterhood, in the lives ofour families and our children,
for embracing all of us.
Thank you for being who you areand we hope you have the most
beautiful, celebrated, cherished, know you are loved Mother's

(01:38:56):
Day.
We love you.

Katie (01:38:58):
Thank you for asking.
I love you.
I love you, thank you forasking me.
I love you.
I love you both.

The Sisters (01:39:29):
Hearing the stories of others helps us create a
more meaningful connection toour own.
We invite you to sit withtoday's conversation to reflect
on your own story of life, love,loss and what legacy you're
building.
We encourage you to sharetoday's or any episode with a
friend, tag us on social mediaor join the conversation in our

(01:39:50):
growing communities.
You can also visitthePIGpodcastcom for more ways
to connect.
Finally, we would not be herewithout you To help us continue
growing and expanding our reach.
Please rate the PIG, leave areview and reach out if you have
a story you'd like featured ona future episode, because this

(01:40:11):
isn't just a podcast.
It's a place to be reminded.
Even in loss, hope truly doeslive on.
Thanks for being part of thisjourney with us.
Until next time, hogs andkisses everyone!

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