March 5, 2025 • 39 mins
As founder of Salt Lick Creative and former editor in chief of Condé Nast Traveller, Melinda Stevens has an eye for beauty and detail that can only come from having seen a lot of the world. And we mean a lot.
In our latest episode, Melinda walks us through her colorful and heartfelt world, stopping to smell the roses everywhere from Mumbai and Tripoli to the Alps and Raja Ampat. Expect comforts, creatures, ruins, and secrets – as well as her abiding obsession with collecting broken things.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Owen Vince (00:00):
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
Or to put it another way, whatdoes travel do to our brains and
our hearts, and even our souls,when we set off for new places
(00:25):
and faraway shores?
Tom Marchant (00:28):
Today we're joined by someone who truly embodies
the spirit of adventure andstorytelling Melinda Stevens.
Melinda is the founder andcreative director of Salt Lick,
an agency shaping the future oftravel with iconic brands like
Belmond and inspiring newlylaunched London members club,
the Roof Gardens.
She's the author of severalbest-selling books with Asseline
, including Chic Stays andSecret Stays, and has long been
(00:49):
a force in travel writing,having brilliantly led Condé
Nast Traveller UK and Condé NastTraveller US as their
editor-in-chief.
Beyond that, she's deeplyinvolved in shaping the next era
of travel, advising on the GenZ-focused app Step your World,
and working with Gloobles, anAmsterdam-based culture network
with a new London guidelaunching this spring.
She also supports initiativeslike Chefs in Schools and City
(01:10):
Harvest, using her platform forimpact.
I'm delighted to be joined by mygood friend, melinda Stephens,
on this episode of the Pursuitof Feelings podcast.
As you know, the podcast is allabout exploring the
relationship the relationshipbetween travel and emotion and
the idea that we believe in whenwe started Black Tomato the
(01:31):
idea that perhaps we don'talways know where we want to go,
but we know how we want to feeland bringing that to the fore.
And for us, it's a delight tohave you here to kind of talk on
that matter.
So before we get into some ofthe real detail around that
theme, just give us a bit of abackground about yourself and
your relationship with travel.
I mean, it's a big relationship, so I don't know how long
(01:52):
you've got, but yeah, that'd begreat to kick that off with.
Melinda Stevens (01:56):
Well, I'm excited because I feel like I'm
in a new phase of travel,actually because my kids are
older now and the way that mywork is panning out means that I
get to say yes to more things.
It was ironic, being the editorof Condé Nast Traveler, I
didn't say yes to a lot ofthings.
I didn't travel.
Everyone always assumes Itraveled a lot, but I didn't.
I was kind of in my box,working really hard, and now I'm
(02:19):
out of my box and it'sbrilliant being able to travel
again in a way that I justalways loved.
From when I was a kid, myparents were big travellers,
wild travellers, culturetravellers.
I was a really to ensure youknow, a really hopeless
journalist for many, many yearsbecause I really wanted to be
like a serious journalist,writing for serious newspapers
(02:41):
about serious things.
I found it really hard to get ajob and I had no idea that
being a travel writer or atravel editor could be a job and
that penny didn't drop until Iwas about 31.
So when that did, then lifechanged for me hugely and it's
been a huge bloodline through mysystem.
Tom Marchant (03:03):
And was that penny not dropped because you always
just put travel in a certain box?
It's almost like passion to beenjoyed outside of work.
Melinda Stevens (03:10):
Yes, totally, totally.
I think in my 20s I was quiteserious and it took me a while
to lighten up.
Then I just remember crying andcrying and crying with pleasure
, with this feeling thatsomebody could ask me about
Morocco or Berlin and you knowmy opinion counted and then I
could commission myself to gothere.
(03:31):
It was a very closed loop ofbrilliance.
I should never have left Tatler.
Actually that was the best jobI ever had.
I had to look after one featurea month and I would go.
Gosh, I wonder what it'slooking.
Cartagena looks interesting.
There's some music things goingon there and this new little
place to stay is open.
(03:52):
Oh, I'll commission myself,I'll go to Cartagena, just bless
who's commissioning you.
Myself.
I will commission myself.
How should?
Owen Vince (04:01):
I pitch myself.
Melinda Stevens (04:04):
That's a yes from me.
That's how that pitch went.
Tom Marchant (04:06):
Really high success rate is my pitch is you
mentioned, obviously, theinfluence of your parents and
growing up I mean travel was abig part of your life growing up
.
Melinda Stevens (04:15):
Yes, probably one of the first feelings that I
remember with travel wasintense boredom.
They used to take us on really,really intense historical,
classical, cultural trips andalso they both had the energy of
kind of dynamos.
We were like up with the crackof dawn.
There wasn't a museum or a touror a ruin that we weren't part
(04:37):
of, and I just remember that.
My first memory also of thatfeeling of being somewhere,
extraordinary, I think, wasEphesus, somewhere like Ephesus,
a great big, empty amphitheatreand being so hot and so bored.
And yet, of course, I rememberexactly what the sea looked like
(04:59):
.
I remember exactly what thestone felt like, I remember
exactly the smell as we walkedto it.
I remembered exactly thefeeling, and so none of those
things go to waste.
Tom Marchant (05:09):
I was going to say , were those feelings almost
that kind of developed in termsof their power or impact as time
went on, as you reflected?
Melinda Stevens (05:16):
Because often people talk about.
Tom Marchant (05:17):
Sometimes, when you're in that moment and
there's other things that arebothering you, you don't perhaps
savour it as much, becausethere's other things you're
thinking of.
Melinda Stevens (05:23):
I don't even know how it unpeels, to be
honest, tom, it's probablymostly by accident.
I think, yes, if you travel,you have to be curious,
obviously.
So, for example, take thatexperience and then cut to 15
years later, maybe 20 yearslater, and I said, yeah, I'd
probably commission myself againto go to Libya because I love
deserts.
And I thought again to go toLibya because I love deserts and
(05:44):
I thought, oh, that desertlooks interesting, that looks
uncharted from my point of view.
And of course that wasn't whatthe trip was about at all.
It was about being in Tripoliand going to Leptis Magna.
I don't even think I knew aboutLeptis Magna and we went to the
Roman ruins there.
I think we were the only peoplethere.
Oh, I just could not get overthe feeling of the living city
(06:08):
that Leptis Magna had been underone of the few I think I'm
correct in saying thisAfrican-born Roman emperors.
The emptiness of it, the beautyof it and the feeling of it
being a working town was justvisceral, extraordinary.
Tom Marchant (06:24):
That thing you said there about.
You know you look at a place oryou'll see something say the
desert feeling uncharted, andyou go and then you end up
having a different experience.
Is that kind of a beautiful wayof traveling?
You do travel for purposes, butalso it's the sense of not
knowing or coming across thingsthat are undiscovered.
I mean, is that a regularpattern?
Melinda Stevens (06:45):
Yes, it's a regular occurrence because I
don't read the literature.
I haven't read the itinerary,my geography is terrible.
I'm hopeless at maps.
The first trip that I went onin terms of feeling where I felt
truly, truly in a different,unknown, uncharted territory, is
when my friend, joe and I, whohad wanted to travel across, we
thought we would travel acrossAfrica.
We were 18.
We thought we'll start at thetop and we'll just go down to
the across.
We thought we would travelacross Africa.
We were 18.
We thought we'll start at thetop and we'll just go down to
(07:07):
the bottom.
That was the amount of ourresearch and we thought,
actually, that looks like quitea long way, let's go to India.
And then, because again we'reso chronic, we ended up in
Indonesia and we ended up inJakarta.
We just thought, god, what'sJakarta?
But there was this sign to Baliin the airport.
We thought, but we've heard ofthat, so let's go there.
(07:27):
And we arrived in Bali and thiswas 1990 maybe and immediately
fell in love with it, ditchedall of our rucksack, hired a
moped and set off into theunknown.
And I remember, I think, on thesecond night on this moped trip
we had terrible jet lag and Iremember I think on the second
night on this moped trip, we hadterrible jet lag and I remember
waking up at four in themorning or something and there
was a huge torrential tropicalstorm going on and my friend Joe
(07:52):
and I sat on the deck and justwatched these huge raindrops
fall on these huge leaves and Iremember feeling totally and
utterly free.
Tom Marchant (08:02):
I love that I mean you always captured places so
beautifully.
I think that feeling of theunknown right For some people
it's intimidating but alsoexhilarating at the same time,
and some people walk towards it.
Some people like to have italmost put to one side and get a
little bit scared.
That's something you go towardsthe unknown because you see in
the not knowing there aremoments that are rather are
surprising, and that sense ofdiscovery is all the better for
(08:25):
it.
Melinda Stevens (08:25):
Yeah, the not knowing.
We could have a whole separateconversation around how
discoverability is suffering.
I think is being challenged as akey emotion that is
intrinsically connected totravel, and I think, with the
world being so trodden now, thatsense of discovery is at risk.
So, yes, I always try to get asfar away from the well trodden
(08:49):
as possible.
You know, I just went to RajaAmpat this new year.
I don't know if you've beenthere.
Um, so it, raja Ampat.
My stepbrother is a huge marine,uh, conservationist.
He runs a company called BlueMarine which is about protecting
marine conservationist.
He runs a company called bluemarine which is about protecting
marine reserves, and hisfavorite place is this place
(09:09):
called rajat and pat which, forwhatever geological and weather
conditions, has the bestpreserved coral reef still on
the planet.
And I remember it like diving.
As a kid my parents spent a lotof time in the bahamas and they
would literally, you know, youwould strap a tank to your back
and you get, you know, shovedoff the side of the boat, aged
about, I don't know, nine or ten.
(09:30):
And then I've dived a lot since.
I almost feel like it's notreal what I see in terms of the
coral and in terms of the sceneof devastation.
I almost think, like that, Imust be seeing it wrong and then
, somebody else is seeing itright, but I've now dived in
enough places to know that thatis the reality.
And, raja Ampat, it takes youthree.
(09:50):
I think it took us threeflights.
I didn't tell my daughter Itook one daughter.
I didn't tell her till we werein the airport, because she
doesn't like sitting still andshe doesn't like long flights.
So I said okay, here we go.
Baby you ready?
He said, tell me.
And I said it's Doha to Qatar,then we've got an eight hour
layover and then we're to Surongand then we've got a five hour
(10:12):
boat ride.
She swallowed several times, shegot over it and then we had the
most amazing trip with the mostamazing bunch of people.
My brother had taken over thiswhole spot there and we dived
three times a day, four times aday.
Bush, bush, bush.
And the first time I went underthe water I burst into tears in
my mask, which is a feeling initself, because I just could not
(10:36):
believe the state of thisunderwater wonder and the colors
of the fish and the colors ofthe anemones and the amount of
fish.
It literally we got rushed atby fish, we got bumped by fish.
There were so many people goingin this direction, people going
in that direction, batfishstaring in the face, sharks
(11:00):
everywhere.
My sister-in-law saw ahammerhead.
She found that less amusing.
Turtles swimming around oh mygosh, such colour.
It really made coming up out ofthat underwater world a
disappointment.
So Raja Ampat for me was anextraordinary thing.
Tom Marchant (11:18):
There's so much in there.
One thing the journey to getthere, the length of time it
takes.
It's interesting to see thereactions.
Part of it, like you say, isbecause it's getting
increasingly hard to find thesethings.
You have to go further.
But is there also part of it?
Maybe not for your daughter,but there's a sense of it
heightens the experience, thefeeling, because you almost feel
like you've earned it.
You've had to go further,you've had to work harder or put
(11:39):
yourself through more flights,more levels, more journeys to
get that.
So then the satisfaction of Aseeing something amazing, but
knowing that this isn'tsomething that's easily done and
not everyone's going to be ableto do it or be there.
We see that as a feeling,almost like this pursuit of
pushing yourself, but you pushyourself for those end rewards.
Is that something that?
Melinda Stevens (11:56):
resonates.
Well, I'm now going to be reallycontrary, because I have a
problem with that too, in thesense that I do feel that places
get valued because they're faraway, at the expense of what's
close and under our noses.
And in fact, one of the peoplethat I work with, step your
(12:17):
World, made me look at what Ihave on my own front door in a
different way, in the sense thatthey were showing me kind of
hamburger joints and little barsthat were just where I live and
act and I didn't even know thatwere there, and that started me
on a whole foraging missionaround what I have around me.
So I started surprising thingsthat I didn't use to prize, like
(12:38):
lunch, picking a differentplace every day that was on my
patch and just seeing what wasunder my nose, because there is
things that have huge value andhuge worth and are at huge risk
here.
Yeah, so I think we would doourselves a disservice by just
going that prizes and adventureand exoticism are far away.
(12:59):
Some of my best adventures havebeen walking recently around
the UK, which is odd for me tosay because I'm lazy as a bone,
but I think also we shouldremember that.
We should remember what's hereand close by is also worth
investigating.
Tom Marchant (13:14):
I agree massively with that.
I think it's quite easy to fallinto, like you say, this mindset
of interest and wonder onlylies thousands of miles away,
and if you're lucky enough towork in this industry or be in
this industry, you travel a lot.
It's easy to kind of skip pastthat.
But some of the most you know,certainly being here when I was
living in New York, you know,even in my own hometown of
Birmingham you know there areplaces that are easy to skip
(13:37):
past because maybe, perhaps Idon't know why maybe sometimes
you think, not deliberately, butthere's a one thought of like
well it, you know, there's nourgency because I live here.
But then you also forget thatthese places often need support
and kind of, you know, mightburn bright, then fade away so
you don't miss out on it.
So trying to, maybe just tryingto encourage that, the
curiosity that drives you tothink I've got to go spin the
(13:59):
globe and go there, it's likeyes, that's still great to do
and that's something I want tohave.
But actually I should try thatto do things more frequently,
more locally, and then I canprobably have the best of both
worlds.
Melinda Stevens (14:08):
Totally, I totally agree.
You know, another place I justcame back from was Mumbai.
You know, sometimes I think, inour European sense, often we
see Mumbai as a gateway to tonsof other places, to Kerala, or
often to Rajasthan, et cetera.
But again, if you just do acity, stay in Mumbai was all I
(14:28):
could have wanted it to be, nomore.
It's again like a city notdissimilar to Cartagena, where I
imagined one slice of myselfliving an alternative, living an
alternative life there.
And this is another amazingpartner I went with and this was
a really, really interestingtrip organized by two groups
(14:50):
mainly of women.
One was a company calledGloobles that I'm working with,
fundamentally based in Amsterdam, and one was a social impact
organization called TinyMiracles, also based in
Amsterdam, but their work is inMumbai.
Gloobles had organized thiswonderful bunch of women to meet
the Tiny Miracles lot and wespent four days seeing Mumbai.
(15:12):
I Tom, in a ways that you justwouldn't ever imagine to see,
like really behind closed doorsand people living in the most
extraordinary and difficultcircumstances, people living on
the street with all of theirfamilies at the risk of having
all of their stuff taken awaythe whole time by the police,
etc.
Etc.
I really worried before thetrip that it was going to be too
(15:34):
much, too extreme.
There's lots of people whohadn't been to India before.
All of these really mixedemotions and it ended up being
extremely impactful for all ofus because, of course, the
Indians are to make a massivegeneralisation, are incredibly
funny and incredibly hospitableand incredibly curious and
wanted to know about us and toldtheir stories and we just had
(15:58):
the most extraordinary time.
So we will continue to do work,with Tiny Miracles, for sure.
And what emotions I meanobviously a lot.
Tom Marchant (16:06):
But what were really sort of emotions stirred
within you when you were outdoing that, when you were kind
of behind closed doors but alsowitnessing yeah, very different
side as a kind of vague teamleader, I kept like thinking
that I needed to give the speechabout let's be mindful of our,
you know, notions of whitesaviourness.
Melinda Stevens (16:26):
Let's be conscious that we do not need to
take our cameras everywhere andtake photos of this, like you
know, some of the things that wewere doing.
Let's experience it in realtime, in real life, without
documenting it.
Let's be sensitive to being,you know, objectified by
sticking our cameras, you know,in everyone's faces the whole
time, and having somebody in thesea putting a camera in your
(16:49):
face is a really unpleasantspeech.
So I managed to give thisspeech to everyone on the last
day, but I didn't really need todo it because everyone was
clever and sophisticated andbecause our hosts had just been.
So what it made us feel like islet's do more because we can,
and the point about TinyMiracles is they take all the
(17:11):
sweat out of partnering up withthese people, so you feel can do
, rather than overwhelmed byhopelessness, which can happen.
Tom Marchant (17:19):
Yeah, and I think that's one of the which sounds
incredible is where you can see,almost like the pay forward,
there's something you'rewitnessing or experiencing but
that both stays with you butthen perhaps instills like an
ongoing attitude.
Right, which is something thatI think, which I also think is
should be true of lots of travel, in terms of how it can change
your perspective, change youroutlook.
Yes, when you plan travel, whenyou're looking at trips whether
(17:40):
it's your own, whether whenyou're commissioning yourself,
obviously, uh, do you commissionor plan with the pursuit of a
specific feeling in mind, likeyou know, rather than a place,
are you ever going right?
Actually, this is, yeah, whatI'm after.
Melinda Stevens (17:52):
I don't know if you've been skiing with your
kids, but it's kind of hell onearth and it's really when
they're little, it really defiesdescription.
And and they're all peeing intheir suits and you can't get
them out of the house and yourhusband's going nuts and
everyone's forgotten theirbonnet mom, and everyone's
(18:13):
crying and there's snoteverywhere and then they fall
over and then you just you'renot even picking them up anymore
, you're just leaving them tolike rot in their own blood and
sweat and tears.
It's, it's so.
It's such hard work and it'ssuch a privileged thing to be
saying but it's such hard workbut I really really, really used
to hate it.
I require quite a lot of silenceand I require quite a lot of
(18:37):
calm and reflective time, itturns out.
And so what I wanted to do wasski in a quiet way, in a cosy
way, in a almost like boil itdown to its bare minimum.
So we did this sneaky trip toMajeve.
I don't know whether you knowthe lovely hotelier, jocelyn
(18:58):
Siboué.
She's really magic.
She has lots of hotels, mostlyaround France, and she had a
hotel that I always, always,always.
You know like you have hotelson your board that you always
wanted to go to.
99% of the time, you realizethat that picture was not
representative and that was ahuge mistake.
Owen Vince (19:18):
Show me this bit.
Melinda Stevens (19:20):
But that doesn't look like this.
Where's this?
That's happened a few times.
I won't name names, but LeFemme de Marie was somewhere
that I always wanted to go and Iknew her as a hotelier so I
knew she could follow through.
And we got up in the morning,we'd have the same breakfast and
then we'd put on our ski stuff,we'd go out on the slopes, we'd
laugh at my little one a lot.
(19:40):
We were a bit mean actually,because we started taking
endlessly down.
The always ended up at theblack slopes by mistake, which
she had to just go down on herbum, bless her.
And then in the evening we'dtake off our things and then we
ate, which does not suit thecuriosity of the travel editor
mindset.
We ate in the hotel.
Every night we had the samedrinks.
(20:00):
We just wanted the raclette,and then we wanted the fondue,
and then we went to bed, eventhough we had a two-bedroom room
.
Tom Marchant (20:16):
We all slept under those cozy thick blankets like
clouds, and then we get up thenext day.
We just do the whole thing onrepeat.
Melinda Stevens (20:20):
Bliss, I was going to say, and bliss, so
you've cracked your skiingchallenge you just need to cut
out everything else that makesit too complicated and too
overstimulating.
Tom Marchant (20:26):
You need to keep it very pure I have a young
family and I think theadjustment from being well, not
traveling with with little onesto doing it, I I'd still try to
push a lot of my like, well, wecan do that and they'll be
obviously fine and and Isometimes get it right, but I
often get it wrong and I thinkit's like it doesn't mean you
still can't have the adventures,but just trying to find things
(20:46):
that can still give you a greatfeeling from it, but not feel
well, not know that you'rebasically going to not be able
to get any kind of feeling,because you're going to be just
juggling chaos, chaos.
Melinda Stevens (20:55):
Can be chaos with your kids.
I went to Mexico.
I was writing a book forAsseline on the most beautiful
Hotel Ascensia.
Tom Marchant (21:01):
Have you been there?
No, but most of my company havebeen have been.
Melinda Stevens (21:09):
I've kind of feel like, well, what you've,
that's a mistake.
Yeah, I know, go with your kids, that suits.
And I took one of my daughtersand she.
She did apologize recently,actually, because we didn't
really address it, but I justkept on waiting down downstairs
for her to come and join me forbreakfast and for flying by on
the pink sand and looking at thelapping waves, but she spent
most of her time in her jacuzziwatching the Kardashians on her
(21:30):
phone.
I did not know what to say toher.
Yeah, great feeling that itwasn't our best, but I'm going
to.
Tom Marchant (21:40):
I'll find you a jacuzzi at home that you can
watch the Kardashians on, shesaid that she was working.
Melinda Stevens (21:45):
She said she was working, but it turns out it
was the Kardashians on herphone.
Tom Marchant (21:48):
I love the strategy.
One thing you've talked about,and we've talked about before,
is the role of scent in kind ofstimulating emotion and feelings
, and that's.
I totally concur with that.
It's so, so important.
Melinda Stevens (22:08):
I mean, yeah, I can tell by your reaction, that
means something right frombeing back in rajah and pat
which is western papua but it'sfundamentally indonesia took me
back to my time in bali and allthe other islands, however many
30 years ago.
Because the clove cigarettesand me, my friend joe and I just
thought we were like we.
You know, we just got intosmoking the clove cigarettes
(22:29):
when we came back to London inthe cold.
You know it takes your head off.
But when we were out there theclove cigarettes made perfect
sense to us.
That's a very particular smelland as soon as I arrived in Raja
Ampat, 30 plus years later,that was straight back to that,
so that again, actually it's alot of embarrassing for my kids
through smell I felt that I waslike back with my people and
(22:53):
that I could speak and I couldspeak the language and that I
knew what I was doing.
None of this was true.
They were just like horrified,but that sense of memory made me
feel like I really belonged.
The other reason why I'mlaughing is because we made
these scents.
I was working at the roofgardens, you know, like I really
belonged.
The other reason why I'mlaughing is because we made
these scents.
I was working at the roofgardens.
You know, those rejadekensington roof gardens, um,
(23:17):
recently, and we made scents,perfumes with with fantastic
perfume H Lynn Harris, and wedid them as season spring,
summer, autumn and and winter.
And we had this really cheeky,naughty time where we just got
everyone to think about whatsmell spring makes you think of,
(23:38):
like squeaky tulip leaves andthings pushing up through the
earth.
And then in summer and autumnand winter we noted down all
these memories and smells, oreven, if I remember in the
autumn, one, you know when, thisis really a specific one.
I love it it's a horse, like ahorse, you know, when you're
feeding an apple to a horse andit crunches on the and they've
(24:03):
got those big like crazy teethand they munch on the apple and
it makes all the smell come outof the apple.
And so we put that into kind ofautumn.
But we also, like we said toLynn, like the club is for
summer, that's going to be a bitnaughty and cheeky Like can you
make this, these smells ofthese really specific seasons,
(24:24):
but make it feel like that's,you know, when you're young and
you're having your first kind offumble, your hot summer fumble,
you know, on the God Jesus nowI'm being really graphic, but
like on a beach in Val di Lobo.
Or can you just bring a bit ofthat you know, those first
fumblingnesses to do with thoseseasons and bring them into
(24:45):
those smells?
So that's what those smells are.
Tom Marchant (24:48):
It's so colourful.
I'm the same in terms of thingsthat take you back.
It's quite funny.
I remember growing up we spent alot of summers on this farm in
South Devon and friends of ourshad this beautiful farm.
It was a working farm and everymorning my brother and I would
wake up, we'd be woken up by thehens, the roosters, and we'd go
(25:11):
out and Claude, his farmer,would be there and we'd get on
his tractor and he'd just takeus off into the fields and it
was the smell of the hay andprobably with some like,
probably like some manure inthere as well, for whatever
reason.
But there's something that itis the most powerful stimulant
for me and actually I sort ofromanticise, but it does take me
back to a childlike state, butit just makes me so happy.
And then you have these otherreally random ones.
(25:31):
Like you know, I lived in NewYork for five or six years and
there's a time where every kindof cocktail bar or anywhere in
Brooklyn you go into the bar andthey have like a Lollabo candle
or something right andeverywhere just smells like that
.
But now I walk into someone'shouse and I immediately think
I'm sort of in some randomcocktail bar in the back streets
of Brooklyn and that can begood and bad.
But like it's funny aboutbringing them back because a lot
(25:54):
of hotels are big on theirscents, right, they kind of have
these defining scents and I'vetalked about this a few times.
But sometimes when you go intothese hotels and like it's quite
interesting, and they, you know, in their shop or something oh,
you've got a diffuser you cantake it home and it sometimes
just doesn't really work yeah.
Melinda Stevens (26:17):
And really work yeah and uh.
Well, I think a scent is reallyfascinating for lots of reasons
.
I'm going to get all of myfacts wrong here, but apparently
a smell is your kind ofdominating sense when you're a
child, over things like kind oflanguage, for quite a
considerable period of of years.
And also memory and smell livein the same part of the brain,
(26:39):
so there is something reallyspecific about that particularly
.
I grew up in Hampshire for awhile and I remember one of our
dogs ate a rabbit or a hare.
It was funny enough, the samearea where water shipped down
Rippling terrifying movie.
Do not watch that, but I thinkwe had to read it as a school
(26:59):
book.
But anyway, same part of thecountryside and there were lots
of rabbits and hares around andanyway one of our dogs had
killed them.
So we had these two baby haresthat we nurtured and adopted and
they would eat.
Oh my God, this is horrible.
They would eat spinach andbroccoli and I can't eat spinach
(27:20):
and broccoli without thinkingof those baby hairs.
Tom Marchant (27:25):
It's amazing though the connection.
I mean I've got ones that arejust weird like some reason.
Yeah, I love New York, but itmust be like the smell of
detergent they use in certainplaces, whether you're in a
bodega or even when you step offinto JFK and now to anyone else
.
But I just love it because itjust takes me back there and for
ages I couldn't work out.
I was like there's somethingabout it.
Then someone once said it'sjust particular detergent, but
(27:46):
it's so powerful.
You talk about broken thingsand things that kind of tell
stories and this idea of findingthings that you bring back home
and kind of it reminds you ortells more stories.
Are you actively looking atthese things that you kind of
just organically collect alongthe way?
Just speak more on that,because I think it's a
(28:08):
fascinating insight.
Melinda Stevens (28:09):
I love collecting and it doesn't matter
whether it's a shell.
I used to do shells with thechildren, by which I mean I
collected shells and thechildren did something else, and
then I got them to label it orthen I labeled it, and then
we've got lots and lots of thosewhich are wonderful, and then I
did it in felt-tip pen or theydid it in felt-tip pen and
(28:30):
they've all faded.
It's so heartbreaking, but I'vealways collected, because
everything is just sowonderfully different.
I think all I'm trying toremember is what's different
about everywhere we go, and Ihave a sitting room at home that
is full of really, really weirdstuff.
I mean the stuff that I'vecollected, like this old wooden
(28:52):
fish from Niger.
I hadn't been to Niger, I justsaw it and fell in love with it
and it was a classic purchase.
And when it arrived I thoughtit was going to be this small
and it was like five foot long.
It was apparently when thefishing had been very good along
the river.
People would stick this fish ontheir heads.
Anyway, I have to like unpackmost of the stuff that I
(29:13):
purchased quietly away from myhusband and look, but even like
I found a beautiful skeleton ofa bat.
God, I can't remember the nameof that amazing antique town Is
it Tetbury?
And the bat?
You just, oh my gosh, it looks.
You understand where the humanbat man things comes from.
It's so human, it's like a homosapien and then it just has
(29:38):
these extraordinary long fingersin the skeleton state.
That's beautiful.
I collect so, yeah, so manybooks.
That's the other thing travelbooks, photography, books piling
high, high, high.
My husband remembers going tomy mother's house where he
couldn't see the televisionbecause my mum just had like so
(30:00):
many books in front of it, and Ifeel like we maybe entered that
stage and with that it's, likeyou say, it kind of it's moments
in time.
Tom Marchant (30:11):
But is it also because you then look at those
things and it reflects and ittakes you back from?
Melinda Stevens (30:14):
it Totally.
Everything tells a story,everything.
The only things that I everregret I'm just fascinated by
this thing about regret the onlythings that I regret are the
things that I didn't do.
The only things that regret iswhen I said, oh no, I'm too busy
, I'm working too hard, or Iwon't buy that because it's too
weird, or you know, you know,this isn't about expensive stuff
(30:35):
and I go oh my God, I wish thatextraordinary skull of a I
don't know whatever it was.
So I buy things because Icollect, because objects are
triggers for memory in the sameway that smells are triggers for
memory.
They're part of who you are andpart of and books, it's all the
same thing.
It's a collection of I'm sureyou've watched that beautiful
(31:01):
diana vreeland, the.
I must travel.
This is the journey of whereyour eye has traveled and what
it's lit upon yeah, and what hascaptured your imagination and
why would you want to let thatgo?
I?
Tom Marchant (31:08):
had a uh, not nearly as interesting romantic.
But when I drove across thestates we moved, moved from New
York to California, I decided Iwas going to collect.
I mean, I collected lots ofthings that would tell me the
state, but I always had thisthing about collecting sand or
dirt from each state and I wasgoing to have this map of things
, places I'd gone to, and Ienvisaged it anyway.
Basically, what I ended up with, because of my probably obvious
(31:30):
ADHD, was I just loads of sandand soil.
So I was like I'd forgottenwhere I'd got it and hadn't
labelled in time.
So by the time I got there, itwas just this like cupboard full
of like random plastic bags andstuff which I insisted on
keeping and had these grandvisions of somehow testing it
and working out.
Melinda Stevens (31:49):
Honestly, I bought them back and Hon just
stick Arizona on it, just stickUtah on it and then just park it
.
I'll just create something likeyeah, yeah.
Tom Marchant (31:57):
Yeah, I'll sell that in.
We talk a lot about kind of thepositive emotions that travel
brings.
I mean a whole kind of range ofthem.
Have you ever had trips, youremember, where you've had the
opposite, where you've eitherhad something that's bittersweet
or, I was going to say, scared.
But sometimes I think beingscared actually can lead to
positivity, because you knowlike the adrenaline goes, but
(32:17):
the only thing you look back onyour travels where perhaps what
you expected wasn't what you got, and you know maybe it's a
regret or maybe it's somethingthat's yeah.
Melinda Stevens (32:23):
I mean it was funny I knew that this question
was coming and it was making megiggle, because I I remember on
another trip I got myself into akind of spot of bother with two
boys and I remember thinking itdoesn't matter, because I'm
going to go on this trip and I'mreally going to think about it
and reflect on it and just comeup with the right, correct,
honourable plan.
(32:44):
And then, of course, Itravelled for two months and I
didn't think about either ofthem at all.
Tom Marchant (32:49):
A lot days before you got back.
Melinda Stevens (32:51):
Yeah, I went oh God, jesus, I'm going to need
to have some kind of response tothis.
But just to go back to thenear-death thing because, gosh,
no, you don't want to make shortshrift of it, but yeah, like I
have a very good travelingpartner who's, you know, one of
my best friends, and I've nearlydied with her at least 17 times
on at least 17 different trips.
And that's really becauseyou're putting yourself out
(33:17):
there, you think that you'reinvincible and you're on
motorbikes and you're going tocop bites, or you're saying yes
to everything you know, backwhen this was, when the world
was less chartered.
But yes, testing the edges ofyourself and how you are in
those extremes, I think is areally relevant part of growing
yeah, I think it's reallyimportant.
Tom Marchant (33:37):
I think I think because it's almost not like,
it's not quite the kind of youdon't get anything original if
you, if you're not willing tofail.
But there's a bit of that withtravel in terms of growing
yourself or finding experiences,that unless you're willing to
take a risk or just sitcomfortably with discomfort and
see what happens.
I think also also it'sinteresting.
Not everyone does this, butsometimes I think when people go
into their travel heads or theyjust tend to think, well, the
(33:59):
rest of the world, because it'snot like my day-to-day, it's
sort of safe or nothing's goingto go wrong because I'm
travelling or people are goingto think I'm on holiday.
And this is not to scare monger, but I think it's interesting
how someone's perception of howthey feel day-to-day can just
change massively when they'retraveling, and I think that's a
good thing as well.
Sometimes I think some peopledo push themselves more when
they travel because it might bethe only time you're going to be
in a place, or the kind ofno-regret side of it as well.
Melinda Stevens (34:21):
Yeah, for sure.
Tom Marchant (34:27):
Talking about your time at Condor's Traveller, you
obviously commissioned andwrote amazing features and when
you look back at that a part tothe world or particular stories
that you conceived and you youproduced that really meant a lot
from an emotional side or standto stand out.
Melinda Stevens (34:42):
I mean, there's so many in it and you do such
amazing output it always wouldmake me laugh a tiny bit because
, like the atmosphere of themagazine that I always wanted to
be made was like those earlytrips, like being out in nature
and exploratory and not grand,not smart.
I wanted it to feel likefreedom and exploration and
(35:07):
spontaneous.
So we spent a lot of timewriting about surf places, which
was ironic because no one onthe team surf but surfers have a
really good nose for goodbeaches and you know beach shack
living.
And that was what I was into atthat time.
So we would just like getslightly embarrassed.
(35:28):
I was like, oh God damn it.
Surf shot again for this teamof people who don't surf.
But you know that was a vibe.
But funnily enough, gosh,there's so many lovely
photographers who work there andsome of them actually I still
work with.
You know, olly Pilcher has anextraordinary eye for that kind
of living and lifestyle.
(35:48):
My God, he just makes you feelthat he and he often photographs
his family actually feels likethey're living the best life
that you possibly could wellit's like can be really intense
and no one works harder.
But he has an extraordinaryspirit, but one of the I god I
hope I've got his name right.
It was a piece on Palermo inSicily.
(36:10):
I think his name was BillPhelps.
It was the opposite of what theshoot was supposed to be Like.
It was very dark, it rainedevery day and he, I think just
it seemed just like, seemed tohave just shot at night in the
rain and it was the mostbeautiful, breathtaking feature,
(36:34):
body of work and it made me, itcompletely changed my aesthetic
.
Actually, and I think that's animportant part, is like you
have to keep on.
There's another photographerthat I work with at the moment
who completely changed my way oflooking at things, and that's
what you've got to keep doingLike.
For me, as a creative director,it's all about what I see and
(36:55):
how I see it, and then how thatstorytelling gets purveyed.
And people, whether they'rewriters or whether they're
photographers, who make you lookat something that you're so
used to looking at somebody whomakes you look at it in a
different way ah, that's justsuch a breathtaking privilege.
I love the fact that I keepmeeting new people with new
(37:16):
lenses and a new turn of phraseor a new angle or a new sideways
, and I just keep learning andit's bliss.
Tom Marchant (37:25):
And the power in that is the way you open your
mind to that, because I think alot of people as creative
directors can be very much like.
Well, this is just my way, youknow, and you see people kind of
get stuck in those ruts.
Melinda Stevens (37:35):
I think it's like again, part of my saying
yes to everything has been aboutmeeting a lot of people.
I didn't used to have time tomeet people and I thought I was
a certain type of person.
And now I've worked out Iwasn't a certain type of person.
I just didn't have time or Ichose to not make the right
decision in that time.
Chose to not make the rightdecision in that time.
(37:55):
So now I'm out and I'm meetingpeople and mostly I'm listening.
I'm listening because peoplewho are traveling around the
world now in their 20s and their30s oh my god, you know people
like step your world or peoplelike tripping, and if you know,
like I just love listening towhat they value and and what
gives them pleasure and whatthey're interested in, and I
(38:16):
tune into that.
It's.
Tom Marchant (38:17):
For me it's the listening yeah, and that's how I
think it keeps the mind fresh.
This podcast about the pursuitof feeling what.
What does that mean to you?
Melinda Stevens (38:25):
you know, probably one brain cell of mine
is brain related and all therest of the cells are feeling.
I think I just, you know, movearound like a kind of Donkey
Kong barrel, feeling everything,and I'm what am I grateful for
it?
Open to it, sometimes I'mscared by it.
Hopefully, the best thing thattravel can make you feel is to
(38:49):
be more sensitive to others,because you're not the center of
your own world, much as thoughit can sometimes feel like that,
particularly if you have a kindof dominant, you know,
personality in your own head.
So yeah, for me it's all aboutfeeling, and it's often why I
now travel alone.
A lot is to have that more pureexperience of feeling and being
(39:13):
in my head, being in my bodyand being in this world.
Tom Marchant (39:17):
Well, I mean perfectly encapsulated.
Thank you, um melinda.
That's been brilliant and thankyou so much for your time today
.
It's always so inspiring andenlightening to talk with you.
I know everyone listening tothis will as well say thank you
very much for joining us thankyou so much, tom you've been
listening to the Pursuit ofFeeling, a podcast by Black
Tomato.
Owen Vince (39:39):
If you've enjoyed this episode, then please hit
the subscribe button.
We've got a lot more episodeson the way and if you're feeling
inspired by what you've heardtoday, then visit blacktomatocom
.
We'll help you to travel whereyour heart is.
Thanks for listening.
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
Or to put it another way, whatdoes travel do to our brains and
our hearts, and even our souls,when we set off for new places
(00:25):
and faraway shores?
Tom Marchant (00:28):
Today we're joined by someone who truly embodies
the spirit of adventure andstorytelling Melinda Stevens.
Melinda is the founder andcreative director of Salt Lick,
an agency shaping the future oftravel with iconic brands like
Belmond and inspiring newlylaunched London members club,
the Roof Gardens.
She's the author of severalbest-selling books with Asseline
, including Chic Stays andSecret Stays, and has long been
(00:49):
a force in travel writing,having brilliantly led Condé
Nast Traveller UK and Condé NastTraveller US as their
editor-in-chief.
Beyond that, she's deeplyinvolved in shaping the next era
of travel, advising on the GenZ-focused app Step your World,
and working with Gloobles, anAmsterdam-based culture network
with a new London guidelaunching this spring.
She also supports initiativeslike Chefs in Schools and City
(01:10):
Harvest, using her platform forimpact.
I'm delighted to be joined by mygood friend, melinda Stephens,
on this episode of the Pursuitof Feelings podcast.
As you know, the podcast is allabout exploring the
relationship the relationshipbetween travel and emotion and
the idea that we believe in whenwe started Black Tomato the
(01:31):
idea that perhaps we don'talways know where we want to go,
but we know how we want to feeland bringing that to the fore.
And for us, it's a delight tohave you here to kind of talk on
that matter.
So before we get into some ofthe real detail around that
theme, just give us a bit of abackground about yourself and
your relationship with travel.
I mean, it's a big relationship, so I don't know how long
(01:52):
you've got, but yeah, that'd begreat to kick that off with.
Melinda Stevens (01:56):
Well, I'm excited because I feel like I'm
in a new phase of travel,actually because my kids are
older now and the way that mywork is panning out means that I
get to say yes to more things.
It was ironic, being the editorof Condé Nast Traveler, I
didn't say yes to a lot ofthings.
I didn't travel.
Everyone always assumes Itraveled a lot, but I didn't.
I was kind of in my box,working really hard, and now I'm
(02:19):
out of my box and it'sbrilliant being able to travel
again in a way that I justalways loved.
From when I was a kid, myparents were big travellers,
wild travellers, culturetravellers.
I was a really to ensure youknow, a really hopeless
journalist for many, many yearsbecause I really wanted to be
like a serious journalist,writing for serious newspapers
(02:41):
about serious things.
I found it really hard to get ajob and I had no idea that
being a travel writer or atravel editor could be a job and
that penny didn't drop until Iwas about 31.
So when that did, then lifechanged for me hugely and it's
been a huge bloodline through mysystem.
Tom Marchant (03:03):
And was that penny not dropped because you always
just put travel in a certain box?
It's almost like passion to beenjoyed outside of work.
Melinda Stevens (03:10):
Yes, totally, totally.
I think in my 20s I was quiteserious and it took me a while
to lighten up.
Then I just remember crying andcrying and crying with pleasure
, with this feeling thatsomebody could ask me about
Morocco or Berlin and you knowmy opinion counted and then I
could commission myself to gothere.
(03:31):
It was a very closed loop ofbrilliance.
I should never have left Tatler.
Actually that was the best jobI ever had.
I had to look after one featurea month and I would go.
Gosh, I wonder what it'slooking.
Cartagena looks interesting.
There's some music things goingon there and this new little
place to stay is open.
(03:52):
Oh, I'll commission myself,I'll go to Cartagena, just bless
who's commissioning you.
Myself.
I will commission myself.
How should?
Owen Vince (04:01):
I pitch myself.
Melinda Stevens (04:04):
That's a yes from me.
That's how that pitch went.
Tom Marchant (04:06):
Really high success rate is my pitch is you
mentioned, obviously, theinfluence of your parents and
growing up I mean travel was abig part of your life growing up
.
Melinda Stevens (04:15):
Yes, probably one of the first feelings that I
remember with travel wasintense boredom.
They used to take us on really,really intense historical,
classical, cultural trips andalso they both had the energy of
kind of dynamos.
We were like up with the crackof dawn.
There wasn't a museum or a touror a ruin that we weren't part
(04:37):
of, and I just remember that.
My first memory also of thatfeeling of being somewhere,
extraordinary, I think, wasEphesus, somewhere like Ephesus,
a great big, empty amphitheatreand being so hot and so bored.
And yet, of course, I rememberexactly what the sea looked like
(04:59):
.
I remember exactly what thestone felt like, I remember
exactly the smell as we walkedto it.
I remembered exactly thefeeling, and so none of those
things go to waste.
Tom Marchant (05:09):
I was going to say , were those feelings almost
that kind of developed in termsof their power or impact as time
went on, as you reflected?
Melinda Stevens (05:16):
Because often people talk about.
Tom Marchant (05:17):
Sometimes, when you're in that moment and
there's other things that arebothering you, you don't perhaps
savour it as much, becausethere's other things you're
thinking of.
Melinda Stevens (05:23):
I don't even know how it unpeels, to be
honest, tom, it's probablymostly by accident.
I think, yes, if you travel,you have to be curious,
obviously.
So, for example, take thatexperience and then cut to 15
years later, maybe 20 yearslater, and I said, yeah, I'd
probably commission myself againto go to Libya because I love
deserts.
And I thought again to go toLibya because I love deserts and
(05:44):
I thought, oh, that desertlooks interesting, that looks
uncharted from my point of view.
And of course that wasn't whatthe trip was about at all.
It was about being in Tripoliand going to Leptis Magna.
I don't even think I knew aboutLeptis Magna and we went to the
Roman ruins there.
I think we were the only peoplethere.
Oh, I just could not get overthe feeling of the living city
(06:08):
that Leptis Magna had been underone of the few I think I'm
correct in saying thisAfrican-born Roman emperors.
The emptiness of it, the beautyof it and the feeling of it
being a working town was justvisceral, extraordinary.
Tom Marchant (06:24):
That thing you said there about.
You know you look at a place oryou'll see something say the
desert feeling uncharted, andyou go and then you end up
having a different experience.
Is that kind of a beautiful wayof traveling?
You do travel for purposes, butalso it's the sense of not
knowing or coming across thingsthat are undiscovered.
I mean, is that a regularpattern?
Melinda Stevens (06:45):
Yes, it's a regular occurrence because I
don't read the literature.
I haven't read the itinerary,my geography is terrible.
I'm hopeless at maps.
The first trip that I went onin terms of feeling where I felt
truly, truly in a different,unknown, uncharted territory, is
when my friend, joe and I, whohad wanted to travel across, we
thought we would travel acrossAfrica.
We were 18.
We thought we'll start at thetop and we'll just go down to
the across.
We thought we would travelacross Africa.
We were 18.
We thought we'll start at thetop and we'll just go down to
(07:07):
the bottom.
That was the amount of ourresearch and we thought,
actually, that looks like quitea long way, let's go to India.
And then, because again we'reso chronic, we ended up in
Indonesia and we ended up inJakarta.
We just thought, god, what'sJakarta?
But there was this sign to Baliin the airport.
We thought, but we've heard ofthat, so let's go there.
(07:27):
And we arrived in Bali and thiswas 1990 maybe and immediately
fell in love with it, ditchedall of our rucksack, hired a
moped and set off into theunknown.
And I remember, I think, on thesecond night on this moped trip
we had terrible jet lag and Iremember I think on the second
night on this moped trip, we hadterrible jet lag and I remember
waking up at four in themorning or something and there
was a huge torrential tropicalstorm going on and my friend Joe
(07:52):
and I sat on the deck and justwatched these huge raindrops
fall on these huge leaves and Iremember feeling totally and
utterly free.
Tom Marchant (08:02):
I love that I mean you always captured places so
beautifully.
I think that feeling of theunknown right For some people
it's intimidating but alsoexhilarating at the same time,
and some people walk towards it.
Some people like to have italmost put to one side and get a
little bit scared.
That's something you go towardsthe unknown because you see in
the not knowing there aremoments that are rather are
surprising, and that sense ofdiscovery is all the better for
(08:25):
it.
Melinda Stevens (08:25):
Yeah, the not knowing.
We could have a whole separateconversation around how
discoverability is suffering.
I think is being challenged as akey emotion that is
intrinsically connected totravel, and I think, with the
world being so trodden now, thatsense of discovery is at risk.
So, yes, I always try to get asfar away from the well trodden
(08:49):
as possible.
You know, I just went to RajaAmpat this new year.
I don't know if you've beenthere.
Um, so it, raja Ampat.
My stepbrother is a huge marine,uh, conservationist.
He runs a company called BlueMarine which is about protecting
marine conservationist.
He runs a company called bluemarine which is about protecting
marine reserves, and hisfavorite place is this place
(09:09):
called rajat and pat which, forwhatever geological and weather
conditions, has the bestpreserved coral reef still on
the planet.
And I remember it like diving.
As a kid my parents spent a lotof time in the bahamas and they
would literally, you know, youwould strap a tank to your back
and you get, you know, shovedoff the side of the boat, aged
about, I don't know, nine or ten.
(09:30):
And then I've dived a lot since.
I almost feel like it's notreal what I see in terms of the
coral and in terms of the sceneof devastation.
I almost think, like that, Imust be seeing it wrong and then
, somebody else is seeing itright, but I've now dived in
enough places to know that thatis the reality.
And, raja Ampat, it takes youthree.
(09:50):
I think it took us threeflights.
I didn't tell my daughter Itook one daughter.
I didn't tell her till we werein the airport, because she
doesn't like sitting still andshe doesn't like long flights.
So I said okay, here we go.
Baby you ready?
He said, tell me.
And I said it's Doha to Qatar,then we've got an eight hour
layover and then we're to Surongand then we've got a five hour
(10:12):
boat ride.
She swallowed several times, shegot over it and then we had the
most amazing trip with the mostamazing bunch of people.
My brother had taken over thiswhole spot there and we dived
three times a day, four times aday.
Bush, bush, bush.
And the first time I went underthe water I burst into tears in
my mask, which is a feeling initself, because I just could not
(10:36):
believe the state of thisunderwater wonder and the colors
of the fish and the colors ofthe anemones and the amount of
fish.
It literally we got rushed atby fish, we got bumped by fish.
There were so many people goingin this direction, people going
in that direction, batfishstaring in the face, sharks
(11:00):
everywhere.
My sister-in-law saw ahammerhead.
She found that less amusing.
Turtles swimming around oh mygosh, such colour.
It really made coming up out ofthat underwater world a
disappointment.
So Raja Ampat for me was anextraordinary thing.
Tom Marchant (11:18):
There's so much in there.
One thing the journey to getthere, the length of time it
takes.
It's interesting to see thereactions.
Part of it, like you say, isbecause it's getting
increasingly hard to find thesethings.
You have to go further.
But is there also part of it?
Maybe not for your daughter,but there's a sense of it
heightens the experience, thefeeling, because you almost feel
like you've earned it.
You've had to go further,you've had to work harder or put
(11:39):
yourself through more flights,more levels, more journeys to
get that.
So then the satisfaction of Aseeing something amazing, but
knowing that this isn'tsomething that's easily done and
not everyone's going to be ableto do it or be there.
We see that as a feeling,almost like this pursuit of
pushing yourself, but you pushyourself for those end rewards.
Is that something that?
Melinda Stevens (11:56):
resonates.
Well, I'm now going to be reallycontrary, because I have a
problem with that too, in thesense that I do feel that places
get valued because they're faraway, at the expense of what's
close and under our noses.
And in fact, one of the peoplethat I work with, step your
(12:17):
World, made me look at what Ihave on my own front door in a
different way, in the sense thatthey were showing me kind of
hamburger joints and little barsthat were just where I live and
act and I didn't even know thatwere there, and that started me
on a whole foraging missionaround what I have around me.
So I started surprising thingsthat I didn't use to prize, like
(12:38):
lunch, picking a differentplace every day that was on my
patch and just seeing what wasunder my nose, because there is
things that have huge value andhuge worth and are at huge risk
here.
Yeah, so I think we would doourselves a disservice by just
going that prizes and adventureand exoticism are far away.
(12:59):
Some of my best adventures havebeen walking recently around
the UK, which is odd for me tosay because I'm lazy as a bone,
but I think also we shouldremember that.
We should remember what's hereand close by is also worth
investigating.
Tom Marchant (13:14):
I agree massively with that.
I think it's quite easy to fallinto, like you say, this mindset
of interest and wonder onlylies thousands of miles away,
and if you're lucky enough towork in this industry or be in
this industry, you travel a lot.
It's easy to kind of skip pastthat.
But some of the most you know,certainly being here when I was
living in New York, you know,even in my own hometown of
Birmingham you know there areplaces that are easy to skip
(13:37):
past because maybe, perhaps Idon't know why maybe sometimes
you think, not deliberately, butthere's a one thought of like
well it, you know, there's nourgency because I live here.
But then you also forget thatthese places often need support
and kind of, you know, mightburn bright, then fade away so
you don't miss out on it.
So trying to, maybe just tryingto encourage that, the
curiosity that drives you tothink I've got to go spin the
(13:59):
globe and go there, it's likeyes, that's still great to do
and that's something I want tohave.
But actually I should try thatto do things more frequently,
more locally, and then I canprobably have the best of both
worlds.
Melinda Stevens (14:08):
Totally, I totally agree.
You know, another place I justcame back from was Mumbai.
You know, sometimes I think, inour European sense, often we
see Mumbai as a gateway to tonsof other places, to Kerala, or
often to Rajasthan, et cetera.
But again, if you just do acity, stay in Mumbai was all I
(14:28):
could have wanted it to be, nomore.
It's again like a city notdissimilar to Cartagena, where I
imagined one slice of myselfliving an alternative, living an
alternative life there.
And this is another amazingpartner I went with and this was
a really, really interestingtrip organized by two groups
(14:50):
mainly of women.
One was a company calledGloobles that I'm working with,
fundamentally based in Amsterdam, and one was a social impact
organization called TinyMiracles, also based in
Amsterdam, but their work is inMumbai.
Gloobles had organized thiswonderful bunch of women to meet
the Tiny Miracles lot and wespent four days seeing Mumbai.
(15:12):
I Tom, in a ways that you justwouldn't ever imagine to see,
like really behind closed doorsand people living in the most
extraordinary and difficultcircumstances, people living on
the street with all of theirfamilies at the risk of having
all of their stuff taken awaythe whole time by the police,
etc.
Etc.
I really worried before thetrip that it was going to be too
(15:34):
much, too extreme.
There's lots of people whohadn't been to India before.
All of these really mixedemotions and it ended up being
extremely impactful for all ofus because, of course, the
Indians are to make a massivegeneralisation, are incredibly
funny and incredibly hospitableand incredibly curious and
wanted to know about us and toldtheir stories and we just had
(15:58):
the most extraordinary time.
So we will continue to do work,with Tiny Miracles, for sure.
And what emotions I meanobviously a lot.
Tom Marchant (16:06):
But what were really sort of emotions stirred
within you when you were outdoing that, when you were kind
of behind closed doors but alsowitnessing yeah, very different
side as a kind of vague teamleader, I kept like thinking
that I needed to give the speechabout let's be mindful of our,
you know, notions of whitesaviourness.
Melinda Stevens (16:26):
Let's be conscious that we do not need to
take our cameras everywhere andtake photos of this, like you
know, some of the things that wewere doing.
Let's experience it in realtime, in real life, without
documenting it.
Let's be sensitive to being,you know, objectified by
sticking our cameras, you know,in everyone's faces the whole
time, and having somebody in thesea putting a camera in your
(16:49):
face is a really unpleasantspeech.
So I managed to give thisspeech to everyone on the last
day, but I didn't really need todo it because everyone was
clever and sophisticated andbecause our hosts had just been.
So what it made us feel like islet's do more because we can,
and the point about TinyMiracles is they take all the
(17:11):
sweat out of partnering up withthese people, so you feel can do
, rather than overwhelmed byhopelessness, which can happen.
Tom Marchant (17:19):
Yeah, and I think that's one of the which sounds
incredible is where you can see,almost like the pay forward,
there's something you'rewitnessing or experiencing but
that both stays with you butthen perhaps instills like an
ongoing attitude.
Right, which is something thatI think, which I also think is
should be true of lots of travel, in terms of how it can change
your perspective, change youroutlook.
Yes, when you plan travel, whenyou're looking at trips whether
(17:40):
it's your own, whether whenyou're commissioning yourself,
obviously, uh, do you commissionor plan with the pursuit of a
specific feeling in mind, likeyou know, rather than a place,
are you ever going right?
Actually, this is, yeah, whatI'm after.
Melinda Stevens (17:52):
I don't know if you've been skiing with your
kids, but it's kind of hell onearth and it's really when
they're little, it really defiesdescription.
And and they're all peeing intheir suits and you can't get
them out of the house and yourhusband's going nuts and
everyone's forgotten theirbonnet mom, and everyone's
(18:13):
crying and there's snoteverywhere and then they fall
over and then you just you'renot even picking them up anymore
, you're just leaving them tolike rot in their own blood and
sweat and tears.
It's, it's so.
It's such hard work and it'ssuch a privileged thing to be
saying but it's such hard workbut I really really, really used
to hate it.
I require quite a lot of silenceand I require quite a lot of
(18:37):
calm and reflective time, itturns out.
And so what I wanted to do wasski in a quiet way, in a cosy
way, in a almost like boil itdown to its bare minimum.
So we did this sneaky trip toMajeve.
I don't know whether you knowthe lovely hotelier, jocelyn
(18:58):
Siboué.
She's really magic.
She has lots of hotels, mostlyaround France, and she had a
hotel that I always, always,always.
You know like you have hotelson your board that you always
wanted to go to.
99% of the time, you realizethat that picture was not
representative and that was ahuge mistake.
Owen Vince (19:18):
Show me this bit.
Melinda Stevens (19:20):
But that doesn't look like this.
Where's this?
That's happened a few times.
I won't name names, but LeFemme de Marie was somewhere
that I always wanted to go and Iknew her as a hotelier so I
knew she could follow through.
And we got up in the morning,we'd have the same breakfast and
then we'd put on our ski stuff,we'd go out on the slopes, we'd
laugh at my little one a lot.
(19:40):
We were a bit mean actually,because we started taking
endlessly down.
The always ended up at theblack slopes by mistake, which
she had to just go down on herbum, bless her.
And then in the evening we'dtake off our things and then we
ate, which does not suit thecuriosity of the travel editor
mindset.
We ate in the hotel.
Every night we had the samedrinks.
(20:00):
We just wanted the raclette,and then we wanted the fondue,
and then we went to bed, eventhough we had a two-bedroom room
.
Tom Marchant (20:16):
We all slept under those cozy thick blankets like
clouds, and then we get up thenext day.
We just do the whole thing onrepeat.
Melinda Stevens (20:20):
Bliss, I was going to say, and bliss, so
you've cracked your skiingchallenge you just need to cut
out everything else that makesit too complicated and too
overstimulating.
Tom Marchant (20:26):
You need to keep it very pure I have a young
family and I think theadjustment from being well, not
traveling with with little onesto doing it, I I'd still try to
push a lot of my like, well, wecan do that and they'll be
obviously fine and and Isometimes get it right, but I
often get it wrong and I thinkit's like it doesn't mean you
still can't have the adventures,but just trying to find things
(20:46):
that can still give you a greatfeeling from it, but not feel
well, not know that you'rebasically going to not be able
to get any kind of feeling,because you're going to be just
juggling chaos, chaos.
Melinda Stevens (20:55):
Can be chaos with your kids.
I went to Mexico.
I was writing a book forAsseline on the most beautiful
Hotel Ascensia.
Tom Marchant (21:01):
Have you been there?
No, but most of my company havebeen have been.
Melinda Stevens (21:09):
I've kind of feel like, well, what you've,
that's a mistake.
Yeah, I know, go with your kids, that suits.
And I took one of my daughtersand she.
She did apologize recently,actually, because we didn't
really address it, but I justkept on waiting down downstairs
for her to come and join me forbreakfast and for flying by on
the pink sand and looking at thelapping waves, but she spent
most of her time in her jacuzziwatching the Kardashians on her
(21:30):
phone.
I did not know what to say toher.
Yeah, great feeling that itwasn't our best, but I'm going
to.
Tom Marchant (21:40):
I'll find you a jacuzzi at home that you can
watch the Kardashians on, shesaid that she was working.
Melinda Stevens (21:45):
She said she was working, but it turns out it
was the Kardashians on herphone.
Tom Marchant (21:48):
I love the strategy.
One thing you've talked about,and we've talked about before,
is the role of scent in kind ofstimulating emotion and feelings
, and that's.
I totally concur with that.
It's so, so important.
Melinda Stevens (22:08):
I mean, yeah, I can tell by your reaction, that
means something right frombeing back in rajah and pat
which is western papua but it'sfundamentally indonesia took me
back to my time in bali and allthe other islands, however many
30 years ago.
Because the clove cigarettesand me, my friend joe and I just
thought we were like we.
You know, we just got intosmoking the clove cigarettes
(22:29):
when we came back to London inthe cold.
You know it takes your head off.
But when we were out there theclove cigarettes made perfect
sense to us.
That's a very particular smelland as soon as I arrived in Raja
Ampat, 30 plus years later,that was straight back to that,
so that again, actually it's alot of embarrassing for my kids
through smell I felt that I waslike back with my people and
(22:53):
that I could speak and I couldspeak the language and that I
knew what I was doing.
None of this was true.
They were just like horrified,but that sense of memory made me
feel like I really belonged.
The other reason why I'mlaughing is because we made
these scents.
I was working at the roofgardens, you know, like I really
belonged.
The other reason why I'mlaughing is because we made
these scents.
I was working at the roofgardens.
You know, those rejadekensington roof gardens, um,
(23:17):
recently, and we made scents,perfumes with with fantastic
perfume H Lynn Harris, and wedid them as season spring,
summer, autumn and and winter.
And we had this really cheeky,naughty time where we just got
everyone to think about whatsmell spring makes you think of,
(23:38):
like squeaky tulip leaves andthings pushing up through the
earth.
And then in summer and autumnand winter we noted down all
these memories and smells, oreven, if I remember in the
autumn, one, you know when, thisis really a specific one.
I love it it's a horse, like ahorse, you know, when you're
feeding an apple to a horse andit crunches on the and they've
(24:03):
got those big like crazy teethand they munch on the apple and
it makes all the smell come outof the apple.
And so we put that into kind ofautumn.
But we also, like we said toLynn, like the club is for
summer, that's going to be a bitnaughty and cheeky Like can you
make this, these smells ofthese really specific seasons,
(24:24):
but make it feel like that's,you know, when you're young and
you're having your first kind offumble, your hot summer fumble,
you know, on the God Jesus nowI'm being really graphic, but
like on a beach in Val di Lobo.
Or can you just bring a bit ofthat you know, those first
fumblingnesses to do with thoseseasons and bring them into
(24:45):
those smells?
So that's what those smells are.
Tom Marchant (24:48):
It's so colourful.
I'm the same in terms of thingsthat take you back.
It's quite funny.
I remember growing up we spent alot of summers on this farm in
South Devon and friends of ourshad this beautiful farm.
It was a working farm and everymorning my brother and I would
wake up, we'd be woken up by thehens, the roosters, and we'd go
(25:11):
out and Claude, his farmer,would be there and we'd get on
his tractor and he'd just takeus off into the fields and it
was the smell of the hay andprobably with some like,
probably like some manure inthere as well, for whatever
reason.
But there's something that itis the most powerful stimulant
for me and actually I sort ofromanticise, but it does take me
back to a childlike state, butit just makes me so happy.
And then you have these otherreally random ones.
(25:31):
Like you know, I lived in NewYork for five or six years and
there's a time where every kindof cocktail bar or anywhere in
Brooklyn you go into the bar andthey have like a Lollabo candle
or something right andeverywhere just smells like that
.
But now I walk into someone'shouse and I immediately think
I'm sort of in some randomcocktail bar in the back streets
of Brooklyn and that can begood and bad.
But like it's funny aboutbringing them back because a lot
(25:54):
of hotels are big on theirscents, right, they kind of have
these defining scents and I'vetalked about this a few times.
But sometimes when you go intothese hotels and like it's quite
interesting, and they, you know, in their shop or something oh,
you've got a diffuser you cantake it home and it sometimes
just doesn't really work yeah.
Melinda Stevens (26:17):
And really work yeah and uh.
Well, I think a scent is reallyfascinating for lots of reasons
.
I'm going to get all of myfacts wrong here, but apparently
a smell is your kind ofdominating sense when you're a
child, over things like kind oflanguage, for quite a
considerable period of of years.
And also memory and smell livein the same part of the brain,
(26:39):
so there is something reallyspecific about that particularly
.
I grew up in Hampshire for awhile and I remember one of our
dogs ate a rabbit or a hare.
It was funny enough, the samearea where water shipped down
Rippling terrifying movie.
Do not watch that, but I thinkwe had to read it as a school
(26:59):
book.
But anyway, same part of thecountryside and there were lots
of rabbits and hares around andanyway one of our dogs had
killed them.
So we had these two baby haresthat we nurtured and adopted and
they would eat.
Oh my God, this is horrible.
They would eat spinach andbroccoli and I can't eat spinach
(27:20):
and broccoli without thinkingof those baby hairs.
Tom Marchant (27:25):
It's amazing though the connection.
I mean I've got ones that arejust weird like some reason.
Yeah, I love New York, but itmust be like the smell of
detergent they use in certainplaces, whether you're in a
bodega or even when you step offinto JFK and now to anyone else
.
But I just love it because itjust takes me back there and for
ages I couldn't work out.
I was like there's somethingabout it.
Then someone once said it'sjust particular detergent, but
(27:46):
it's so powerful.
You talk about broken thingsand things that kind of tell
stories and this idea of findingthings that you bring back home
and kind of it reminds you ortells more stories.
Are you actively looking atthese things that you kind of
just organically collect alongthe way?
Just speak more on that,because I think it's a
(28:08):
fascinating insight.
Melinda Stevens (28:09):
I love collecting and it doesn't matter
whether it's a shell.
I used to do shells with thechildren, by which I mean I
collected shells and thechildren did something else, and
then I got them to label it orthen I labeled it, and then
we've got lots and lots of thosewhich are wonderful, and then I
did it in felt-tip pen or theydid it in felt-tip pen and
(28:30):
they've all faded.
It's so heartbreaking, but I'vealways collected, because
everything is just sowonderfully different.
I think all I'm trying toremember is what's different
about everywhere we go, and Ihave a sitting room at home that
is full of really, really weirdstuff.
I mean the stuff that I'vecollected, like this old wooden
(28:52):
fish from Niger.
I hadn't been to Niger, I justsaw it and fell in love with it
and it was a classic purchase.
And when it arrived I thoughtit was going to be this small
and it was like five foot long.
It was apparently when thefishing had been very good along
the river.
People would stick this fish ontheir heads.
Anyway, I have to like unpackmost of the stuff that I
(29:13):
purchased quietly away from myhusband and look, but even like
I found a beautiful skeleton ofa bat.
God, I can't remember the nameof that amazing antique town Is
it Tetbury?
And the bat?
You just, oh my gosh, it looks.
You understand where the humanbat man things comes from.
It's so human, it's like a homosapien and then it just has
(29:38):
these extraordinary long fingersin the skeleton state.
That's beautiful.
I collect so, yeah, so manybooks.
That's the other thing travelbooks, photography, books piling
high, high, high.
My husband remembers going tomy mother's house where he
couldn't see the televisionbecause my mum just had like so
(30:00):
many books in front of it, and Ifeel like we maybe entered that
stage and with that it's, likeyou say, it kind of it's moments
in time.
Tom Marchant (30:11):
But is it also because you then look at those
things and it reflects and ittakes you back from?
Melinda Stevens (30:14):
it Totally.
Everything tells a story,everything.
The only things that I everregret I'm just fascinated by
this thing about regret the onlythings that I regret are the
things that I didn't do.
The only things that regret iswhen I said, oh no, I'm too busy
, I'm working too hard, or Iwon't buy that because it's too
weird, or you know, you know,this isn't about expensive stuff
(30:35):
and I go oh my God, I wish thatextraordinary skull of a I
don't know whatever it was.
So I buy things because Icollect, because objects are
triggers for memory in the sameway that smells are triggers for
memory.
They're part of who you are andpart of and books, it's all the
same thing.
It's a collection of I'm sureyou've watched that beautiful
(31:01):
diana vreeland, the.
I must travel.
This is the journey of whereyour eye has traveled and what
it's lit upon yeah, and what hascaptured your imagination and
why would you want to let thatgo?
I?
Tom Marchant (31:08):
had a uh, not nearly as interesting romantic.
But when I drove across thestates we moved, moved from New
York to California, I decided Iwas going to collect.
I mean, I collected lots ofthings that would tell me the
state, but I always had thisthing about collecting sand or
dirt from each state and I wasgoing to have this map of things
, places I'd gone to, and Ienvisaged it anyway.
Basically, what I ended up with, because of my probably obvious
(31:30):
ADHD, was I just loads of sandand soil.
So I was like I'd forgottenwhere I'd got it and hadn't
labelled in time.
So by the time I got there, itwas just this like cupboard full
of like random plastic bags andstuff which I insisted on
keeping and had these grandvisions of somehow testing it
and working out.
Melinda Stevens (31:49):
Honestly, I bought them back and Hon just
stick Arizona on it, just stickUtah on it and then just park it
.
I'll just create something likeyeah, yeah.
Tom Marchant (31:57):
Yeah, I'll sell that in.
We talk a lot about kind of thepositive emotions that travel
brings.
I mean a whole kind of range ofthem.
Have you ever had trips, youremember, where you've had the
opposite, where you've eitherhad something that's bittersweet
or, I was going to say, scared.
But sometimes I think beingscared actually can lead to
positivity, because you knowlike the adrenaline goes, but
(32:17):
the only thing you look back onyour travels where perhaps what
you expected wasn't what you got, and you know maybe it's a
regret or maybe it's somethingthat's yeah.
Melinda Stevens (32:23):
I mean it was funny I knew that this question
was coming and it was making megiggle, because I I remember on
another trip I got myself into akind of spot of bother with two
boys and I remember thinking itdoesn't matter, because I'm
going to go on this trip and I'mreally going to think about it
and reflect on it and just comeup with the right, correct,
honourable plan.
(32:44):
And then, of course, Itravelled for two months and I
didn't think about either ofthem at all.
Tom Marchant (32:49):
A lot days before you got back.
Melinda Stevens (32:51):
Yeah, I went oh God, jesus, I'm going to need
to have some kind of response tothis.
But just to go back to thenear-death thing because, gosh,
no, you don't want to make shortshrift of it, but yeah, like I
have a very good travelingpartner who's, you know, one of
my best friends, and I've nearlydied with her at least 17 times
on at least 17 different trips.
And that's really becauseyou're putting yourself out
(33:17):
there, you think that you'reinvincible and you're on
motorbikes and you're going tocop bites, or you're saying yes
to everything you know, backwhen this was, when the world
was less chartered.
But yes, testing the edges ofyourself and how you are in
those extremes, I think is areally relevant part of growing
yeah, I think it's reallyimportant.
Tom Marchant (33:37):
I think I think because it's almost not like,
it's not quite the kind of youdon't get anything original if
you, if you're not willing tofail.
But there's a bit of that withtravel in terms of growing
yourself or finding experiences,that unless you're willing to
take a risk or just sitcomfortably with discomfort and
see what happens.
I think also also it'sinteresting.
Not everyone does this, butsometimes I think when people go
into their travel heads or theyjust tend to think, well, the
(33:59):
rest of the world, because it'snot like my day-to-day, it's
sort of safe or nothing's goingto go wrong because I'm
travelling or people are goingto think I'm on holiday.
And this is not to scare monger, but I think it's interesting
how someone's perception of howthey feel day-to-day can just
change massively when they'retraveling, and I think that's a
good thing as well.
Sometimes I think some peopledo push themselves more when
they travel because it might bethe only time you're going to be
in a place, or the kind ofno-regret side of it as well.
Melinda Stevens (34:21):
Yeah, for sure.
Tom Marchant (34:27):
Talking about your time at Condor's Traveller, you
obviously commissioned andwrote amazing features and when
you look back at that a part tothe world or particular stories
that you conceived and you youproduced that really meant a lot
from an emotional side or standto stand out.
Melinda Stevens (34:42):
I mean, there's so many in it and you do such
amazing output it always wouldmake me laugh a tiny bit because
, like the atmosphere of themagazine that I always wanted to
be made was like those earlytrips, like being out in nature
and exploratory and not grand,not smart.
I wanted it to feel likefreedom and exploration and
(35:07):
spontaneous.
So we spent a lot of timewriting about surf places, which
was ironic because no one onthe team surf but surfers have a
really good nose for goodbeaches and you know beach shack
living.
And that was what I was into atthat time.
So we would just like getslightly embarrassed.
(35:28):
I was like, oh God damn it.
Surf shot again for this teamof people who don't surf.
But you know that was a vibe.
But funnily enough, gosh,there's so many lovely
photographers who work there andsome of them actually I still
work with.
You know, olly Pilcher has anextraordinary eye for that kind
of living and lifestyle.
(35:48):
My God, he just makes you feelthat he and he often photographs
his family actually feels likethey're living the best life
that you possibly could wellit's like can be really intense
and no one works harder.
But he has an extraordinaryspirit, but one of the I god I
hope I've got his name right.
It was a piece on Palermo inSicily.
(36:10):
I think his name was BillPhelps.
It was the opposite of what theshoot was supposed to be Like.
It was very dark, it rainedevery day and he, I think just
it seemed just like, seemed tohave just shot at night in the
rain and it was the mostbeautiful, breathtaking feature,
(36:34):
body of work and it made me, itcompletely changed my aesthetic
.
Actually, and I think that's animportant part, is like you
have to keep on.
There's another photographerthat I work with at the moment
who completely changed my way oflooking at things, and that's
what you've got to keep doingLike.
For me, as a creative director,it's all about what I see and
(36:55):
how I see it, and then how thatstorytelling gets purveyed.
And people, whether they'rewriters or whether they're
photographers, who make you lookat something that you're so
used to looking at somebody whomakes you look at it in a
different way ah, that's justsuch a breathtaking privilege.
I love the fact that I keepmeeting new people with new
(37:16):
lenses and a new turn of phraseor a new angle or a new sideways
, and I just keep learning andit's bliss.
Tom Marchant (37:25):
And the power in that is the way you open your
mind to that, because I think alot of people as creative
directors can be very much like.
Well, this is just my way, youknow, and you see people kind of
get stuck in those ruts.
Melinda Stevens (37:35):
I think it's like again, part of my saying
yes to everything has been aboutmeeting a lot of people.
I didn't used to have time tomeet people and I thought I was
a certain type of person.
And now I've worked out Iwasn't a certain type of person.
I just didn't have time or Ichose to not make the right
decision in that time.
Chose to not make the rightdecision in that time.
(37:55):
So now I'm out and I'm meetingpeople and mostly I'm listening.
I'm listening because peoplewho are traveling around the
world now in their 20s and their30s oh my god, you know people
like step your world or peoplelike tripping, and if you know,
like I just love listening towhat they value and and what
gives them pleasure and whatthey're interested in, and I
(38:16):
tune into that.
It's.
Tom Marchant (38:17):
For me it's the listening yeah, and that's how I
think it keeps the mind fresh.
This podcast about the pursuitof feeling what.
What does that mean to you?
Melinda Stevens (38:25):
you know, probably one brain cell of mine
is brain related and all therest of the cells are feeling.
I think I just, you know, movearound like a kind of Donkey
Kong barrel, feeling everything,and I'm what am I grateful for
it?
Open to it, sometimes I'mscared by it.
Hopefully, the best thing thattravel can make you feel is to
(38:49):
be more sensitive to others,because you're not the center of
your own world, much as thoughit can sometimes feel like that,
particularly if you have a kindof dominant, you know,
personality in your own head.
So yeah, for me it's all aboutfeeling, and it's often why I
now travel alone.
A lot is to have that more pureexperience of feeling and being
(39:13):
in my head, being in my bodyand being in this world.
Tom Marchant (39:17):
Well, I mean perfectly encapsulated.
Thank you, um melinda.
That's been brilliant and thankyou so much for your time today
.
It's always so inspiring andenlightening to talk with you.
I know everyone listening tothis will as well say thank you
very much for joining us thankyou so much, tom you've been
listening to the Pursuit ofFeeling, a podcast by Black
Tomato.
Owen Vince (39:39):
If you've enjoyed this episode, then please hit
the subscribe button.
We've got a lot more episodeson the way and if you're feeling
inspired by what you've heardtoday, then visit blacktomatocom
.
We'll help you to travel whereyour heart is.
Thanks for listening.
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