March 19, 2025 • 44 mins
As Travel Editor of the Financial Times – and an award-winning journalist to boot – Tom Robbins is no stranger to the wild ways of the world. If you can think of it, he's probably done it.
In this episode, Tom takes us cod fishing in Greenland, trekking in the Alps, and wandering off the Himalayan tourist trail. It's all big, emotional stuff that leaves us thinking (as Tom puts it), "I can't believe they're letting me do this". Disbelief can be a powerful thing.
This episode also features our first reference to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. We knew it wouldn't take long.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Owen Vince (00:00):
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
Or to put it another way, whatdoes travel do to our brains and
our hearts, and even our souls,when we set off for new places
(00:25):
and faraway shores?
Tom Marchant (00:28):
Tom Robbins is the travel editor of the Financial
Times, where his ability to digout unique stories and deep
travel insights has made theFT's travel section one of the
most trusted authorities on howand where to explore the world.
Before taking the helm of theFT, tom covered everything from
business to adventure, alwayswith his signature curiosity and
sharp editorial eye.
He's also an expert on skiing,having written extensively on
(00:49):
the subject, including his bookWhite Weekends, making him one
of the go-to voices on mountaintravel.
Here on the Pursuit of Feeling,we explore the profound
connection between travel andemotion, the way journeys move
us, inspire us and shape who weare, and few tell these stories
better than Tom.
Today, we'll dive into theadventures he's taken, the
emotions they've stirred and howtravel continues to define his
(01:11):
world.
I am delighted to have theesteemed travel editor Tom
Robbins, travel editor of theFinancial Times, on our Pursuit
of Feelings podcast, focusing onthe interesting relationship
between travel and the emotionsit creates.
To kick it off, I'd like to saythank you very much for joining
us, tom.
And yeah, let's just tell us alittle bit about yourself and
(01:33):
how you first started gettinginvolved with this world of
travel.
Tom Robbins (01:36):
Thanks, tom, great to be here.
I'm still waiting for the callup from Desert Island Discs, so
this is an expects thing.
Thank you for having me.
So yeah, travel, I mean it'ssomething I've never thought
about really, how I first gotinto travel or sort of got
wanderlust.
But thinking about it lastnight I was thinking back to
sort of teenage years and Ialways kind of had this absolute
(01:58):
certainty that when I leftschool what I wanted to do was
go travelling, and I think thatwas quite common at the time and
a bit less so now.
Which is, which is you?
know, slightly sad thing.
But and where did it come from?
I think probably part of it wasthat when I was 15, Around the
World in 80 Days came on.
Tv Michael Palin's great series, of which he did numerous
(02:19):
different seasons going ondifferent journeys, but that was
just.
You know, it was a huge thingat the time in British culture
and you know, the viewingfigures were insane.
It was like one in three peopleis watching it on terrestrial TV
on a Saturday night and thatreally, I think sort of
connected with me as animpressionable teenager, and so
I knew that I wanted to, youknow, follow in his footsteps
(02:41):
and go travelling.
And so, yeah, when I leftschool, that's the first thing I
did.
I worked for a bit, just, youknow, to get some money together
, and then hopped on a plane toDelhi and went up to Nepal I
mean classic sort of gap yearstuff.
Tom Marchant (02:54):
What a first place to go to, to Delhi.
I mean that moment, I mean.
Tom Robbins (02:58):
I remember the first time I arrived in Delhi,
the overwhelming feeling feltstepping out of the airport as a
sense of a different place,right I know we're going to talk
about emotions, and I mean justthat as probably one of the
most extreme emotions I've everhad, I think, probably arriving
there.
As you know, I've been on familyholidays before but I'd never
traveled on my own anywhere.
(03:19):
And I literally came out of theairport clutching a plastic bag
of heatrow Duty Free and a hugerucksack full of stuff to take
up into the mountains because Iwas going to go trekking in the
Himalayas and, you know, get hitby this wall of heat.
And I just turned around andwent straight back into the
airport and there's all thesepeople there, you know, saying
come and come and get in my taxiand get in my tuk tuk, and you
(03:41):
know, just a huge kind ofculture shock.
And and I was also just sobadly prepared you know that I'd
got a friend who was already upin katmandu and I thought I'll
just go from delhi to katmanduand uh, you know I had to work
out how to get to the station indelhi, how to buy a ticket, and
the whole thing was, you know,was in at the deep end really,
(04:03):
and I think the emotion of thatwas in a way terrifying but in a
way incredibly valuable for a18-year-old who, you know,
thinks he knows everything youknow and has been incredibly
cocky in life here in the UK andI don't know if you remember,
in the Hitchhiker's Guide to theGalaxy, my lame literary
(04:24):
allusion.
But there you go.
There's this thing called thetotal perspective vortex, which
is a torture device which givespeople an instant sense of their
own insignificance in thegalaxy.
And it was sort of like aversion of that, because it sort
of suddenly gives you aperspective that you never had
before, like instantly, and yourealise that the world is just,
(04:46):
you know, much, much bigger,yeah, than you ever knew and,
you know, just completelydifferent to what you knew.
Tom Marchant (04:52):
And I think that that's a really valuable lesson,
even though it's maybe notpleasant at that moment, like
you say, to go from, and I Iremember a similar thing with a
friend actually the guy Istarted black tomatoes when we
went.
We went to the philippinesfirst summer of uni and stepping
out at manila airport and itbeing so different and also back
in those days, like you say,like the ease of planning just
wasn't.
(05:12):
We had a tattered, lonelyplanet book and it was almost
like terrifying.
But then there was this feelingof right.
You sort of almost like stealyourself a bit and it brought
out sides of us, I think interms of like practicality or
curiosity, like to go get itdone.
That when you look back and go,actually that's a really
formative experience in terms ofhow you think about the world
and I love that point about thathow the world can beautifully
(05:34):
sometimes make you feel reallyinsignificant, which is a great
thing.
Tom Robbins (05:37):
Yeah I mean totally agree.
And, um, I mean, the good thingabout that trip was, you know,
I eventually did manage to getto catman, do, meet up with this
guy, and we went about thattrip was, you know, I eventually
did manage to get to Kathmanduand meet up with this guy and we
went trekking and it was, youknow, completely revelatory
really.
You know, we were trekking withmaps that we bought in Stamford
here in London and they werejust like terrible photocopies
(05:58):
of sort of like that blue, youknow early photocopy, and we'd,
like you know, just randomcontour lines on them.
And we got lost on our firstday and we went the wrong way
off the, you know, theestablished trekking trails.
We went off it and we ended upin this village, completely
untouristy, nowhere to stay, noinfrastructure, nothing.
And also it happened to be thefirst day of Holi, the festival,
(06:20):
you know.
And so as we walked into thistiny village, not sure where we
were, two guys from the homecounties, everyone just emerged
and started throwing the paintaround, you know the, the
powdered, brightly colored paint, and you know, just gleefully
screaming with joy, and thenthese two english boys turn up,
uh, and then, yeah, I mean, wedidn't think about it too much
(06:41):
at the time but looking back,you know, it was just a sort of
wild travel experience and thelocal teacher in that village
took us in and we slept on hisfloor and he gave us dinner and
we talked about, you know, thewhole development of the village
and how they felt that theywere slightly sidelined because
they were not on the trekkingroute and how they were
desperate to try and get tourismto start there.
But no, no, it's justfascinating and I think you, you
(07:03):
know, that experience kind ofset me up then for thinking,
yeah, this is definitely what Iwant to do.
Tom Marchant (07:06):
I was going to say like a couple of things are
interesting that notion thatsometimes when you're in the
moment you're enjoying it, butit's when you then reflect back
on it they almost sort of takeon a greater might or
significance in terms of theimpact it had on you to realize
and see what you've done.
And on trips like that or wasit trips, that which it clearly
sounds like there's a source ofso many ideas for stories or
things to be shared.
Is that where sort of the seedwas planted within you about?
(07:28):
I want to go and write and tellstories about travel or through
travel, or use this as avehicle to kind of you know
something to work on or explore?
Is that where the kind of theseed was planted?
Tom Robbins (07:39):
Not really, to be honest.
I, you know I just wanted tokeep travelling.
That was kind of my main goal.
And I went to university, didan english degree, you know,
specialized in old english, setme up for absolutely nothing in
a professional sense, uh, andgot a job at trail finders and
worked there for a year, youknow, really just so I could
(08:00):
keep traveling.
And you know it was a very sortof vibrant place to work
because everyone was there forthat reason.
You know, everyone was young andeveryone was there and you'd be
just going to work and someonewould have flown back from
Kazakhstan or whatever you knowall over the world, and so that
was great fun.
But at the same time I'd startedgetting interested in
journalism and not traveljournalism, actually news, which
(08:20):
is where I started and went tostudy and actually news, which
is where I started and went tostudy and then travel, kind of
kept going on in the background.
And you know I did news for anumber of years, I don't know
six years or something.
Tom Marchant (08:31):
And would you travel with that?
Tom Robbins (08:33):
role as well.
A bit but I mean mainly justdoing um sort of you know UK
news stories a lot of homeaffairs, that sort of thing.
I did get one amazingly luckygig as a young reporter on the
Sunday Times who was mainlycovering, you know, whatever
news had happened that week.
You know, train crashes,political things, whatever.
But the millennium rolledaround and in Fleet Street
(08:56):
everyone got into this weirdcompetition about who was going
to see the millennium first, thenew millennium, yeah.
And so people were sent off.
It would never happen today.
But people were dispatchedaround the world to be sort of
like oh, I'm just on thedateline, and the Sunday Times
had people in various places.
But I got sent to Antarcticabecause it was, you know,
(09:19):
24-hour sun there and it wastechnically the first sun.
I was going to say I didn't, youknow whatever, and it was
technically the first son of thenew year, you know, whatever,
and it was just just a bizarrething to go and see how they're
celebrating new year's eve.
Uh, I was at the new zealandbase in antarctica and did you
pitch that?
Tom Marchant (09:35):
no, I was gonna say that's the pitch of dreams,
or was?
Tom Robbins (09:38):
that I mean, yeah, I would not have had the
gumption to pitch that as a sortof young you know the young guy
on the news desk.
I.
I think they're basically like,oh, it's going to take, you
know, it's a long trip, so whocan we, who don't we need for
the next two weeks?
So, yeah, so they sent me offthere and actually I filed the
piece and they're like great,right, when are you back in the
(09:58):
office?
I was like two weeks time, sotime.
So no, that was that was just a, that was a lucky break, but um
, no, anyway, it was mainlymainly just doing news.
And then I moved into doingfeature stuff and then a job
actually came up on the observernewspaper and I really saw that
there was a chance of doingtravel, combining travel, my
great passion and work, and soleapt at that and got into it
(10:19):
that way.
Tom Marchant (10:19):
Yeah, amazing.
And you've seen the travelindustry evolve, change,
progress over the years andyou've seen the travel industry
evolve, change, progress overthe years and you've obviously
been beating hard, telling someof the best stories and finding
some of the best insights, andyou know we're talking a lot
about.
When we started Black Tomato,one of the big things was about
people might not know where theywant to go, but know how you
want to feel when you started todevelop your storytelling.
Has that changed from when youfirst started covering travel to
(10:43):
how it is now and did kind ofthat idea of pursuit of emotion
or finding interesting things towrite about beyond, just like
this is a place in theseactivities?
Was that really present then oris that kind of developed or
how does that sit in your world?
Tom Robbins (10:57):
yeah, I mean sort of how much emotion is in a
story is it's a tricky one and Idon't know it.
It's quite subjective anddepends on the outlet, you know
magazine and newspaper are quitedifferent, but I think there
has been a few changes in trend.
And when I was starting, youknow the big name in travel
writing was Bill Bryson.
I mean still is huge, but Imean his sales were just like
(11:17):
dwarfed the entire rest of thetravel writing industry and sort
of prompted this sense thattravel writing has to be
humorous.
And so there's a huge number ofcopycats who were doing like
not quite as funny you know,travel journeys and a lot of
newspaper travel writing sort ofwent down that route and sort
of it was kind of like dad jokeyeah, it was the sort of what
(11:39):
they're searching for, ratherthan something more you know,
straight and possibly havingmore of an emotional connection.
And then on the other side, youknow there is the sort of the
glossy mag way of doing it whereit's sort of like every single
piece has to have a emotionalepiphany in it you know, and
that starts to feel a little bitforced.
I think at times disingenuousyeah, exactly like every, every
(12:02):
trip, on the final day we seethe sunset and everything's
perfect, you know, and so I Ihope what we've done is is, I
don't know just a bit more, asort of emotional honesty to the
writing and sort of, wherethere is something that is that
is moving.
It's great to put that in andget that across and not be
scared of doing it, because it'snot like in that I'm just a, a
gag making travel writer.
You know it's real and emotionis important, so let's say that,
(12:24):
but also let's not push it, youknow yeah, and I think, like
what we really enjoyed on the,when we talk about emotions it's
the gamut right.
Tom Marchant (12:30):
So it's like when you first got into delhi.
There's that sort of terrifyingfear, I think it's.
I think personally if I'mmyself interested in writers or
stories where you said the wordthere's that honesty about kind
of what you're seeing or kind ofthe reaction it's going to
bring out in you.
I think travellers are quitekeen for that.
Sometimes we have some peoplesaying I'm looking to go
somewhere, I'm going to feelkind of challenged or out of my
(12:50):
comfort zone, but know thatsometimes with that comes all
sorts of kind of reactions thatare quite interesting.
Tom Robbins (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think there's aslight danger in pitching it
like just about emotions,because it obviously sounds a
bit like oh, I'm just thinkingabout me and what I'm going to
feel.
Whereas you know, one of thegreat drivers of wanting to
travel is to go and meet otherpeople and see, you know what
they, what they want to sayabout the world and and sort of
(13:18):
not forget about yourself butkind of, you know, find
something new.
Tom Marchant (13:25):
It's saying this is the only way you know that
you can feel, or also going tosomewhere and packaging
something as this is how it'sgoing to make feel and ignoring
kind of the other cultures andhow you might react to that.
And I think it's trying tomaybe stimulate, you know, a
level of curiosity to kind ofyou know, like the sense of the
unknown right, and sometimes,when you have something that's
(13:47):
unknown, the interesting bit ishow you're going to react to
something you don't know.
Tom Robbins (13:49):
And that could be good.
Tom Marchant (13:51):
I mean, do you ever like, when you're planning
trips, both personally or forEFT do you tend to look at like,
right, that's just a part ofthe world I'm interested in, or
is it going?
I don't necessarily know whereI'm going for, but I'm looking
for this kind of a trip which ismaybe it will challenge.
I'm looking for totaldisconnection and I want to see
how people in that kind of worldoperate.
(14:11):
What's the kind of the thoughtprocess as you look for places
in terms of what matters?
Tom Robbins (14:16):
when you go there, it's very different
professionally and personallyand you know, professionally,
we're looking at some reason whyit's in the newspaper now,
because writing appears in asection of news features.
It's not just a travel magazine, so it has to have some
newsiness to it.
So there's always, like some,you know, there's a new flight
(14:36):
going there or there's somereason or some trend.
So that's always the sort ofdriver for why we decide to go
to that place.
Yeah, yeah, newness, um, Iguess, is it is the way of
saying it, I mean.
But then once you have that,you know the piece can explore
deeply, whatever you know.
But then personally, absolutelyyeah, I mean I think my main
drivers are sort of getting tosomewhere remote, away from
other people.
I love going to mountainousareas because you tend to find
(14:58):
that in small, remote places youtend to have more authentic
interactions with people andcultures.
Tom Marchant (15:03):
I think and is that that getting away from
other people because I I'm thesame um?
Do you think that's also partof just a natural reaction to
the kind of the ebb and flow,the mania of the day-to-day,
like we're in these kind ofpre-manic lives?
I mean, it's obviously changeda lot last couple of years where
, arguably, some people saywe're more disconnected remote,
I personally think we're almostmore connected just because of
(15:24):
the digital world we operate in.
I mean, is that something thatyou think was almost a reaction
to that, or was it combined withthe way you've always liked it?
Tom Robbins (15:31):
Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it.
And you know.
The other thing is just howmuch change there is in our
daily lives.
You know, maybe it'sexacerbated by being a
journalist, so you're alwayslooking at, you know what's new
and the constant flow of news.
But I mean just living inLondon.
(15:54):
You know, when I go around thestreets everything's changed.
You know, I'm not make myselfsound incredibly old, but I mean
in the 20 years since I startedgoing out around Old Street and
stuff, you know the whole placeis changed.
The only thing that I stillrecognise are the old pubs you
know the 19th century pubs, andI have to navigate by them and
everything else is new.
So there's this huge changeeverywhere and when you get out
to sort of wilderness placesthere is a sense of you know
that that hasn't changed ascontinuity there's a sort of
eternity to those places andit's I don't mean wilderness,
(16:16):
like it has to be, antarctica, Imean.
You know, if you go to the lakedistrict you know that landscape
hasn't changed at all and thatcan be very sort of refreshing
mentally and and just sort of Idon't know, there's something
comforting about it yeah, maybeit's it's the wrong word to use
as being it's nostalgia, but Isee that personally.
Tom Marchant (16:32):
You're seeing people saying what are you
looking to feel?
Some people are like I want tofeel like you know there's a
constancy, like a connection tosomewhere that I felt good or I
know, but it's interesting and Ican keep revisiting, not
necessarily because I want tosee the change.
It's almost like Ireland'swrong word because, trying to
use a metaphor I'll get it wrongbut but somewhere you can go
back to and there's a calm orsomething to it yeah, totally.
Tom Robbins (16:51):
I mean, I think nostalgia is, uh, it's
interesting because I mean, I'vesaid already, newness is what
we're often traveling for, anddiscovery and for a newspaper
sense, you know, absolutelynewness is everything, but
actually nostalgia is, is a bigdriver, and I'm, you know also
that sense of instant nostalgia,like you get to the final day
of your trip and you'renostalgic for day one and you
know, I've definitely had thatbefore, and you sort of you know
(17:13):
that you're going to be lookingback on this for the rest of
the year and thinking back tothose days you've just had.
Tom Marchant (17:22):
So I talked about traveling for certain emotions.
Has there ever been a time thatyou could recall when you've
traveled and being, and itsurprised you with unexpected
emotions, things you weren'tanticipating?
Tom Robbins (17:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we sort of talked abouthow I got into travelling and
travelled more and when I becamea travel writer, obviously that
opened the doors and I couldtravel much more.
You start to become a littlebit not blasé, but you're used
to it.
That initial sense I wastalking about a fear of culture
shock arriving in Delhi.
That's long gone and you feelcompletely comfortable and you
(17:55):
know the danger obviously is.
Then that starts to numb yourreactions a bit and there's also
the sense you know of placeshaving become a little bit more
the same you know, especiallycities.
you know that we've seen overthe last 20 years whether it's
Instagram that's done that orwhatever but you know design and
food and whatever you know,it's harder to tell whether
you're in Brooklyn or Hoxton orwherever you know, Anyway, I had
(18:16):
a bit of a sense of that.
And then around 2008, I went toGreenland with my family.
We sort of arrived there and Iwas sort of thinking it would
just be, you know, a nice sortof outdoorsy adventure kind of
trip.
I hadn't really thought toomuch about it.
It really surprised me with thesense of discovering something
new and your assumptions aboutthe world being wrong.
Owen Vince (18:39):
I'll just give you an example because that sounds
nebulous.
Tom Robbins (18:41):
But on the first day we went from Nuuk, the
capital, to this camp up thefjord, the side of the fjord,
and on the way the boat driversaid let's try some fishing.
And I was like, oh, I've gottwo toddlers with me, it's six
o'clock, I mean, this is not atime to be messing around with
fishing rods.
Anyway, he got out thesethey're not fishing rods
(19:02):
actually, they were just likewooden frames, like a sort of
old football rattle rattle, youknow, from the 1960s, and
unwound the twine off these andthey had hooks on them, no bait
at all, drop them down into thefjord.
I was thinking, oh, this isgonna take ages, it's gonna be
cold, the kids are gonna getangry because they're not eaten.
Um, anyway, we just unwind them.
(19:23):
And he says, right now, pullthem back in.
So we literally pulled themback in.
Look down, suddenly I could seeall these sort of flashes of
silver and the water was soclear that you suddenly realised
that you could see hundreds ofmetres down and it sort of gave
you a slight sense of vertigobecause you weren't aware of it.
Anyway, he's pulled them up andon that first line there was
like three massive cod on myline, three or four more on my
(19:44):
daughter's, and you know, nobait or anything.
He just pulled them straight upand just because the fjord is
absolutely full of cod and thekids were sort of like, oh great
, that's fishing.
Owen Vince (19:52):
And I was like whoa, that's not fishing.
That's not normal fishing.
Normally you're here for hours.
Tom Robbins (19:56):
Yeah, and just you know, there kept being things
like that and that just requiredyou to sort of forget all your
assumed learning and you knoweverything that you've built
over the years.
It just felt like you'regetting rid of that and learning
something for the first time.
Another day we were going outon on a speedboat and I sort of
had this really weird sensationof not moving, even though it
had a big engine on it and wewere going at full speed.
(20:18):
But because the air is so clear, things that are far away look
closer, and so I was just like,wow, I can't even really judge
distance anymore.
You know, that's sort of that,that kind of newness, and so I
thought I mean that whole tripwas was a succession of those
kind of things.
And you know, looking aticebergs, and you know you've
always thought icebergs arewhite and totally silent and
(20:41):
serene.
They're the sort of epitome ofthat.
You know, actually up close,they're all different colors,
you know, some of them are blue,some of them are gray, some of
the white, and because we'rethere in summer, they're
constantly moving becausethey're melting in the water and
so they're just constantlyhissing because they're
releasing air or they're turningover because their centre of
balance has changed.
Constant motion.
(21:02):
I've just never thought aboutthat before and yeah, so that
kind of trip really is veryrefreshing, to have that kind of
sense of right.
Wow, actually I don't knoweverything about the world.
Tom Marchant (21:12):
I was going to say for the expert and authority
you are as one of the leadingtravellers in the world and
therefore totally understandablewhy that you could at times
think well, I've kind of mightnot have been there, but I'll
know what it's like to seesomewhere bringing out that
reaction.
That's the power of travel,isn't it?
Tom Robbins (21:31):
It's one of the beauties of how the world keeps
throwing things up that canchallenge you, but I wouldn't
want to give the impression thatit always has to be really
far-flung new destinations itcan be.
Sometimes you can get surprisedby emotions in weird moments and
sometimes it's the downtime intrips I remember me and my kids
always talk about.
This time we went on a greattrip to Trieste in Italy and the
(21:51):
thing we always look back onwhat was the best thing?
We did loads of great things,but the thing that they enjoyed
most was this hour when we werein the hotel room and we watched
archery on the telly.
It's one of those things whereyou can't get any channels but
we, for some reason, we'rewatching an archery channel and
they loved it and it was thesense of oh, we've got nothing
else to do at the moment, butwe're all there together having
this slightly weird experience.
Tom Marchant (22:11):
I love that.
It's funny I've got young kidstoo and the things that stick
out suddenly are you plan andyou think you've got a feeling
about what's going to work forthem.
But it's how these things jumpout and give you a different
take.
I mean, it wasn't, as Iremember some years ago, a
friend.
They put together this wholekind of family travel.
They're trying to be quiteadventurous.
So our clients went and they inAsia and there's lots of hiking
(22:32):
with kids on shoulders and itwas quite extreme and quite
challenging.
I think the person got back andsaid for the place you went to,
my kid got.
Most excited was when westopped at a service station on
the way home from the airportand there were three cows by the
fence and you know, two weeksin Asia.
There was in Asia becausenothing compares to these three
accounts.
So it's like the money, but Ithink there's also that there's
that idea, isn't it?
Or that notion of like, whenyou're kind of seeing the world
(22:55):
through like children's eyes, orseeing how they're reacting to
that.
That's one of my greatest joysis being travelling with my kids
and seeing.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto be.
Yeah, I still think about thisplace.
Growing up, we used to go onfamily holidays south of France,
in the Vendée, and there's thislittle village called Apremont
and I still think about it a lotand it'd be interesting to go
(23:16):
there this summer.
This little lake that you go toand I've probably built it up
in my head, I've reallyromanticised it so we can see
what it's like but that still tome sounds one of just messing
around in the lake and justeverything, feeling just relaxed
and at a point in time.
So it's quite nice when you'rein a world of yeah, what's next,
what's new?
When it's charging around tokind of recalibrate, kind of
(23:36):
what might be important.
Tom Robbins (23:37):
Yeah, We've gone back a few times to this
particular cottage in the LakeDistrict, which is totally
remote, off-grid, you know,stunning views and all the rest
of it.
And we said afterwards to ouryoungest we love going there, he
loves going there.
What's your favourite thingabout it?
What's so special?
He said the chopping boards.
They've got a set of differentchopping boards for meat, fish
(23:58):
and vegetables or something.
I was like, oh right, okaygreat I love that, but anyway,
stupid example.
But talking about adventure andhow travelling with kids kind of
opens your eyes again.
I mean, we've done a couple ofwalking trips in the Alps which
have been a good success, whichwere kind of worked out that
with kids they will walk a longway but as soon as it goes
(24:18):
uphill they'll start moaning.
So they're happy to walkdownhill.
I mean, all kids love beingoutside.
There's a natural sort ofdesire to climb on rocks and
stuff.
You know every playground has aclimbing frame in it, um, but
they're just, you know, ploddinguphill.
They all just start moaning,which makes the holiday awful.
So we worked out that you couldgo to the alps in summer where a
lot of the ski lifts are stillopen and they're not that well
(24:41):
marketed or publicized.
It's quite hard to know whichones are open, but you can do it
if you research it.
And so we worked out a route ofwhere we'd go up a ski lift
every morning and spend the daywalking over into the next
valley, stay in a hotel there ora refuge and then the next day
go up again and keep going.
So do like a multi-day walk,that's kind of easy for the kids
.
I mean, it's still a long day,you're still out all day, but
(25:03):
that's worked brilliantly and wedid it in Italy.
But just you know, walking on a, on a mountain path, that I
wouldn't think twice about doingit with my son holding my hand.
And suddenly you're like, ohright, yeah, there is a big drop
down there and he's not awareof it.
He's bending down to pick uprocks and stuff.
And you know I remember doingthis and after we'd done this
(25:24):
section of steep path, we got tothe far bit and I sort of
looked down.
I realized my hand was sweatingwith, you know, I was
absolutely adrenaline and youknow, excitement, terror that
like I haven't experienced foryears, you know, on this
completely benign littlemountain path, you know, but it
kind of gave a thrill to thewhole thing yeah, we're talking
about like the physicalchallenge.
Tom Marchant (25:43):
Like you are a you know, an amazing skier renowned
writer on it.
You know your book WhiteWeekends is a fantastic one.
You like obviously clearlyphysical challenges in different
ways, but it seems thatphysical challenges, just to
what you're saying there cankind of almost intensify the
emotional experience that comeswith it.
Right, do you see that and whydo you think that is?
I mean, apart from it beingterror aside.
But what do you see thatconnection as?
Tom Robbins (26:04):
I definitely do.
I mean, it's quite hard toexplain why, isn't it?
But I think there's a sense ofdoing something real.
You know, if it's somethingthat's challenging physically,
you know it's.
It's not a sort of confected uhactivity that that someone in a
, in a marketing department, hasthought up you know it's like
it's a real thing that'schallenging you, and the
emotions are obviously real,which is really what we're in
search of.
(26:24):
There's also that sense of youknow.
Happiness lies on the other farside of doing something
difficult.
I'd love to say was nietzsche,but I think it's probably from
harry potter.
And so there is that sense of,you know, I've got a focus for
this trip, which is great.
You know, I think that's reallyimportant for people to have
something, that I'm not justgoing there then I'm going to
wake up on the first morning ofmy trip and think what am I
(26:45):
going to do?
They know there's a focus tothis and that's, in a way, more
important than achievingwhatever getting to the top of
the mountain or something.
It's like having that goal andthen working towards it in the
lead up to the trip as well, but, uh, during the trip, and then
hopefully achieving it andfeeling the sort of the sense of
that you're going to havesomething rewarding to look back
(27:06):
on um, so satisfaction as well,isn't it?
Tom Marchant (27:08):
it's.
It's like the notion of theearned experience, like where
you feel like you've worked, youknow I thought you hit the nail
on the head there about, likeyou know, before you're going
you're thinking about it andwhen you're there you're focused
and whether it's a really longtrek or it's climbing a mountain
or skiing tough routes or doinga marathon, place at that end
point, no matter where you are,how you've done, you feel like
I've worked hard for this, I'veearned this experience and the
(27:32):
endorphins.
Maybe you get from that, thatsense and again going back to
what we talked about earliersense of reaction to our
relatively cozy day-to-day itjust seems to be producing far
more heightened than you, Iguess definitely.
Tom Robbins (27:43):
I mean, I think one thing I would say that people
don't talk about too much, butdefinitely people have said to
me, is that there is a definitesense of anti-climax.
Often after you've achieved youknow, if you've been working
all year to go and climb MontBlanc or something or do a
marathon the idea that you'regoing to reach the top of that
mountain and have some kind ofinstant revelation and the
(28:04):
angels are going to sing isactually not there.
I mean, it can be, it can beamazing if it does.
But a lot of people feel like,oh, all that goal I've had all
year it's gone.
Uh, they feel a bit of, youknow sense of emptiness
afterwards and anti-climax asthey get on the plane to come
home.
Tom Marchant (28:19):
But in my experience, you get a longer
term benefit and you know it'sover the next year that you can
think back to it and I totallyagree and and it's sort of like
it's not about sort of tickingthings off to say I've done it,
but the longer term reflectionon that was significant.
A bit like we were sayingearlier about the stuff you do
when you first went to Delhi andyou look back and go.
I remember I did the the newyork marathon last year and yeah
(28:42):
, I definitely rememberfinishing and going, ah, and
then within about two minutesafter my legs were seizing up
and just going and seeingfriends at a bar, just thinking
it was okay and then stillthinking that was a long time
thing, but then, as time's goneon, you go, that was great and
then actually almost acts asanother catalyst.
You know I'm gonna do somethingelse, but yeah, definitely.
Tom Robbins (29:02):
I mean, I think, with adventure though it's
important to say adventuredoesn't have to be, you know,
something physically difficultrunning a marathon, whatever and
you know thinking about what.
You know what constitutes anadventure, and you know we've
had.
You know, driving a drivingtrip across America could be an
amazing adventure.
We had a great long weekend ona narrow boat on the droitwich
(29:24):
canal, you know, and it wasdefinitely an adventure because
we've never done it before.
We're driving this great big,long boat and not sure what
we're doing, and I think, for me, the the key is that you have
agency, that you're the onemaking the decisions.
I mean, it could be that it's acity break and you're the one
exploring the galleries and barsand whatever you know, but
you're not.
You know in aviation is thisphrase that passengers are
(29:47):
self-loading freight you knowthat you're being directed by
someone else.
I think, wherever you have yourown agency, you're the one
making decisions.
Then there's a sense ofadventure to it, and that's not
to say only independent travelis adventurous because you know,
loads of the best things I'vedone have had a guide with me
and organized through a touroperator, and they're the ones
(30:07):
who've opened the doors to thatexperience I totally agree and I
think, like this sense ofadventure, right, which is what
comes with that, what does itmean?
Tom Marchant (30:14):
it's like the not knowing, the kind of every day
being something different.
You're not knowing how it'sgoing to make you feel that that
is an exciting thing, that's aninteresting prospect and it's
funny.
You're absolutely right.
I think I'm not just sayingbecause you know I'm a tour
operator, but we often talk atblack tomato and it's sounds
like cliche about this notion oflike framed spontaneity, right.
So it's our job to kind ofintroduce people to parts of the
(30:34):
world and be there to kind ofsuggest and and put together but
to then encourage to go off andhave moments and go and
discover and have your ownagency to do that.
It's never been been aboutindividual preferences, sort of
going I need every hour, everyday, accounted for, because I
think some of the best thingsthat ever happened to me or
clients have done things thatare almost like the unexpected
and tiny things that come withthat where, like you say, it's
(30:56):
nice to feel that you'rediscovering too, and I think,
never losing sight of thatfeeling.
Making people feel that you'rediscovering off your own back, I
think, is sight of that feeling, yeah, making people feel like
you're discovering off your ownback.
Tom Robbins (31:06):
I think it's really important, absolutely.
I mean, I'd say my absolute,all-time favorite travel emotion
is when you're doing somethingand you just suddenly get struck
by a sense of I can't believethey're letting me do this.
You know, and you know we'vehad that a few times we did a
boat trip.
We're into venice and insteadof staying in a hotel or getting
around by gondola, we had aself-drive houseboat that you
(31:28):
pick up just slightly inland,then you come down the river and
then you just park up whereveryou want in the lagoon and you
explore it.
But you're sort of like the guygives you an hour demonstration
and it's a big boat, you know,it's got like six bedrooms on it
and you're just driving thisaround and you're driving up
past St Mark's Square in Veniceand you know there's tourist
boats going past and you're thecaptain of your own boat.
(31:49):
You're like am I really allowedto do this?
And I just think that the joyof that is, you know, immense.
We went last year to Namibia anddid a driving trip.
Um, and again you're sort ofthey just hand you the keys to
the car and then you're like, oh, the road, the tarmac, just
ended.
Now I'm driving on sand.
Yeah, I don't really know howto do this, but uh, it's, you
(32:09):
know, it's fine.
You know it's actually theroads are fine, but it's, you
know, literally you've flownthere and suddenly you're
driving along and there's ajackal by the side of the road
running along next to you as youdrive or sort of getting your
book out going jackals are likelike fine, yeah, you totally,
and I mean that kind of sense ofI can't quite believe I'm here
and I can't quite believethey're letting me do it.
(32:30):
That's really amazing.
Tom Marchant (32:31):
I think namibia itself as a source of just
interesting experiences I'vealways found fascinating.
I think one of the greatesttrips I took was there.
In fact, you know this thing wetalked about earlier about sort
of an unexpected like emotion.
I think first time I went tonamibia this was way back in the
day to show my age because Ihad a blackberry right and uh
and black tomato wasn't longstarted but ended up like up on
(32:52):
the skeleton coast where we gotto first and pulled out and no
signal and those days we werestarting the business.
It really connected and myinitial emotion was like panic
right you know, and I think, and, and then probably some comedy
footage of me running to the topof some dune holding a
blackberry in the middle of theskeleton coast, one of the most
remote places on earth.
Unexpected, but quickly, thatgave way to a kind of this is
good.
(33:12):
Actually, I can't do anythingabout it and actually I can
really lean into being presentin this place, which then went
on to give me one of the bestexperiences I've had in my life,
because I didn't have naggingin my brain.
I need to check my phone to seewhat's happened.
You know, and I think it was inthe area for like five days,
you know, eventually got aflight down to Cape Town and as
you land to Cape Town, you know,phone on signal came in and you
(33:33):
know, you discovered that.
You know the world hadn'tstopped turning, things were
fine and actually it wasprobably one of the best things
and unexpected that would happenand the panic was the
unexpected emotion, but gave meone of the best trips, or I then
tried to replicate it yearslater, going to places there was
signal, going to my friend hidemy phone right and then about
an hour you know day later, justjust give it back.
(33:53):
Just give it back.
Tom Robbins (33:53):
So, um, uh, didn't work, but yeah, namibia is a
source of interesting thingsyeah, it's like that reminds me
of um, the story of the um polarexplorer, erling Kager,
pronouncing that wrong, I'm sure.
But he did a North Pole I can'tremember if it was North or
South Pole trek, you knowmulti-month, and as part of his
insurance deal he had toconstantly have his GPS
(34:16):
emergency tracker on.
That was part of thearrangement and as he got flown
in the small propeller plane todrop him off at his start point
for this long trek, he justquietly took out the batteries
of this thing and left them onthe plane because he wanted that
you know he wanted to betotally alone, and he did it
obviously these words like youknow, digital detox are so
(34:36):
overused and it's kind ofterrible being a bup.
Tom Marchant (34:38):
I still think it's one of the best kind of forms
of wellness out there if you canbe alone and also being alone
with your thoughts.
Being alone in a place, youknow, I think you get more
interesting thoughts when you'realone with them.
So the ultimate luxury exactlywhen people talk to you about
places and maybe countriesyou've been to or journeys
you've taken that have justdelivered something
(34:59):
extraordinary for you.
You know, are there any placesthat you quickly go to and go?
Tom Robbins (35:04):
time spent in this place is just an incredible
thing to have I mean, you know,boringly, I'm afraid, my ideal
is going back to the alpswhenever I can, uh, summer or
winter.
Just think there is somethingvery special about going to the
sort of authenticity of thevillages there and you know the
fact that it's in the right, inthe center of europe, but you're
(35:25):
sort of hiding away up at theend of these valleys and where
you know life hasn't changed.
Well, I mean life has changedcompletely because they were
incredibly poor, uh, and now nowthey're living this really nice
lifestyle.
But I mean the traditions arestill very, very strong there
and and obviously you know theoptions for like walking and
skiing and everything are thereas well.
But yeah, I mean I just go backto greenland like a shot.
(35:46):
Obviously there's a newairport's, just open there which
makes it easier.
I mean it's, you know, obviouslythinking about that in a
slightly anxious way, becausewill it change what was there?
My hunch is that it's not apanic actually.
Yeah, you know the numbers willstill be limited and you know
it's such a vast place that it'sgoing to be okay.
But yeah, absolutely We'd goback there.
Namibia I had a greatexperience in the empty quarter
(36:08):
in Oman.
Tom Marchant (36:10):
Yeah, I've still not got there yet.
That always just grabs me, andonce I still haven't got there,
I mean just special right.
Tom Robbins (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, it was again one of the sense of
are we really allowed to do this?
Because you know, we went witha tour operator and it was the
guide driving us, was somehowconnected to the Oman military
and he was just going throughthese military posts where he
was flashing his warrant cardand we were driving further and
further out into the desert andyou know, sort of coming up to
(36:38):
the Yemen border, you knowhighly sensitive, but just you
know total desert and totallywild and amazing skies and just
an amazing experience to bethere.
Tom Marchant (36:49):
yeah, I think I feel that way about a few places
in ethiopia.
I think it's always been reallyinteresting.
Just for the contrast as well.
It just feels quite differentas well.
You feel quite lucky to go tosome parts of it but,
interesting as well.
Like you know, there are placesthat are kind of preserved in
time, but not in a kind ofyou've got to stay that way.
You know it's.
It's not kind of tourism comingin to say, you know, be like
this forever and change, butit's a really, really unique
(37:11):
place in terms of the blend ofdifferent cultures yeah, yeah
what about, um, for good reason,one travel journalist of the
year many times.
Is there a kind of a magicformula?
Maybe not asking to give itaway, but that that thing, that
kind of you think, kind ofdefines your approach to, kind
of when you're looking at, kindof telling stories, I mean, I I
guess.
Tom Robbins (37:31):
Uh, what I like to do, and encourage our ft writers
to do, is to not just think ofthemselves as a tourist who's
writing down what they've doneon their holiday.
You know, one totally validapproach to travel writing is
I'm writing about the experienceof a holiday.
I should just go as a holidaymaker and write down what
happens to me, Whereas I thinkactually, no, you're not just
(37:55):
going as a holiday maker, you'regoing as a journalist.
You need to do more work.
You need to interview peoplewhen you get there.
You need to do some backgroundreading before you get there.
And you need to use that to tellthe story of the place as well
as the story of your holiday.
You know, both of those areimportant and they're both two
sides to the coin.
(38:15):
And if you were just talkingabout the place, then it would
sort of veer into foreignreporting, you know, and there
would be a story about somethinghappening there.
Foreign reporting, you know,and, and there'll be a story
about something happening there.
And it's important that you'regiving the story and the
emotions of your holiday as well, you know, because that's what
it's all about, that's whatwe're describing.
Tom Marchant (38:32):
But I still think that you should be able to give
the reader more than just yeah,what happened to you and do you
think also by doing that itopens new ideas or ways to
explore a place and if someone'syou're looking at purely for
this is probably my holiday,because sometimes people go on
holidays, they can travel inquite a kind of parameterised
way and I'm just going to dothis, but actually by having
more colour about the place, itmight prompt people to explore
(38:54):
further or consider other things.
Tom Robbins (38:55):
Yeah, or not necessarily go further, but just
to delve deeper into where theyare, and I think particularly
just talking to people andarriving somewhere and saying to
the local tourist board youknow, I want to interview
someone about this or whatever.
That's just such an importantway of adding depth to where you
are, you know, whether it bethe history of the little alpine
(39:16):
village where you are, or youknow you're meeting someone
who's.
I did this ski tour trip inSwitzerland and we ended up in
this tiny village where it's cutoff the entire winter but
there's still a few people wholive there and it's literally it
could be 1910.
You know there's no access tothe outside world and you know,
great to be there, great skiingto get there.
But then I met there this oldguy who'd lived there his whole
(39:38):
life.
He was wearing clothes that his, his wife had made his clothes
for him.
And you know, this was likelast year, you know, and it was
such a window into thetraditions of this Alpine
village, you know, and thatwould never have happened if I
hadn't been like, oh, I need tointerview someone, you know.
So that does definitely add toit.
Tom Marchant (40:02):
When we talk about emotion in travel, you know
it's a whole spectrum ofemotions.
It's not just about thehappiness and the joy.
It's also about we talked aboutbeing terrified.
Is there anything that you canremember on a trip either
unexpected or possibly where youfelt scared or overwhelmed or
perhaps even melancholic?
Tom Robbins (40:18):
Yeah, we touched briefly on that sense of
anti-climax after a big goal abig adventure travel goal, and
also we talked about nostalgia,which can be a sort of, you know
, bittersweet thing.
Um, I've returned to quite alot of places in recent years.
You know that I went to earlierand not consciously seeking out
nostalgia, but I think that wasprobably there and I don't know
(40:42):
if it's a pleasant experience ornot really, but it's certainly
an emotion that you feel.
The other thing is homesickness, which nobody who works in the
travel industry talks about orlikes to admit to, but I think
I've definitely felt that indifferent places, and there's
(41:02):
the sense of re-evaluating whatyou've got at home because
you're away and you know, to the.
The obvious thing is that youknow you value more what you
have at home because you'remissing it.
Whether that be, oh, actuallyyou know we spend our whole
lives at home moaning about thecountry and what's wrong with it
, but actually, when you're away, you know actually it'd be
quite nice to go, yeah, for aroast dinner in a pub or
(41:25):
something like that, you know,but also just like the family
setup that you, that you missand think back to and and makes
you value more.
So that's definitely a valuableit's like it's the perspective
it brings, isn't it?
Tom Marchant (41:35):
yeah, I guess, yeah, being being around.
That I definitely agree withthat as well.
Certainly like, yeah, theindustry working.
You know we can spend our wholelives.
Often we do charging rounds,looking, and then you sometimes
need that distance to reflect onwhat you've got at home.
Last couple of questions, tom,this podcast is called Pursuit
of Feeling.
What does that mean to you?
Tom Robbins (41:53):
It's just a way of framing it, isn't it really?
Because whatever is the drivingfactor for you going somewhere,
if you say you want to escape,you want to go to explore a
particular desert, there's stillan emotion or a feeling driving
that, even if in your mindyou're just thinking, oh, I've
always wanted to go to the EnediDesert, or whatever.
So I guess for me I would neversay I'd write down a list of I
(42:15):
want to feel this emotion andthis is where I'm going to go.
That would never happen.
But I mean behind that,obviously, emotions and feelings
are what it's all about.
Tom Marchant (42:25):
Yeah, I think it's an excellent description.
And lastly, where's next in thein the tom robbins travel
calendar?
What do you have coming up?
Tom Robbins (42:33):
um, well, very next is, uh, ski trips, which is to
a ghost resort which is a, aresort that's closed down in the
swiss alps, and uh, there'snothing there, just ruin falling
over lifts.
And the idea is that it'sweirdly becoming popular again
amongst people going ski touringwho are, you know, rejecting
the sort of more commercialisedworld of skiing and just going
(42:55):
to walk uphill themselves.
You know that sport isabsolutely booming and in the US
it's the second fastest growingsport after pickleball, you
know, and 20 years ago it usedto just be bearded old men who
did this weirdly ascetic thingof walking up mountains, but now
it's got a whole newconstituency.
So, yeah, I'm going there tohave a look at that.
(43:16):
And then, yeah, I mean honestly,my partner is infuriated that I
always want to go to cold,mountainous places.
She's desperate to go tosomewhere warm, to Sri Lanka
this year.
But I'd love to go back toSouth America, which is
somewhere I travelled a fair bitwhen I was much younger and
haven't been for a long time,just because of the length.
You've got to go for a longtime to make it worthwhile, and
especially if you're going totake the kids.
(43:37):
And also Mexico, I'd love to Ithere.
Latin themed nice, yeah, I mean,I think in the UK we have, you
know, a real blind spot aboutSouth America and agreed just
culturally and also in ourtravel industry, just because of
how far it is to get there.
Tom Marchant (43:53):
But it's fascinating always worth the
trip.
Brilliant.
Well look, tom.
Thank you so much for joiningus on the Superfamous podcast.
An illuminating chat, as Ihoped.
It would be always inspired byuh, by what you share.
So thank you for your time anduh and coming on.
Tom Robbins (44:06):
Thank you, Tom.
Owen Vince (44:06):
It's been a great pleasure.
You've been listening to thepursuit of feeling, a podcast by
black tomato.
If you've enjoyed this episode,then please hit the subscribe
button.
We've got a lot more episodeson the way and if you're feeling
inspired by what you've heardtoday, then visit blacktomatocom
.
We'll help you to travel whereyour heart is.
(44:28):
Thanks for listening.
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
Or to put it another way, whatdoes travel do to our brains and
our hearts, and even our souls,when we set off for new places
(00:25):
and faraway shores?
Tom Marchant (00:28):
Tom Robbins is the travel editor of the Financial
Times, where his ability to digout unique stories and deep
travel insights has made theFT's travel section one of the
most trusted authorities on howand where to explore the world.
Before taking the helm of theFT, tom covered everything from
business to adventure, alwayswith his signature curiosity and
sharp editorial eye.
He's also an expert on skiing,having written extensively on
(00:49):
the subject, including his bookWhite Weekends, making him one
of the go-to voices on mountaintravel.
Here on the Pursuit of Feeling,we explore the profound
connection between travel andemotion, the way journeys move
us, inspire us and shape who weare, and few tell these stories
better than Tom.
Today, we'll dive into theadventures he's taken, the
emotions they've stirred and howtravel continues to define his
(01:11):
world.
I am delighted to have theesteemed travel editor Tom
Robbins, travel editor of theFinancial Times, on our Pursuit
of Feelings podcast, focusing onthe interesting relationship
between travel and the emotionsit creates.
To kick it off, I'd like to saythank you very much for joining
us, tom.
And yeah, let's just tell us alittle bit about yourself and
(01:33):
how you first started gettinginvolved with this world of
travel.
Tom Robbins (01:36):
Thanks, tom, great to be here.
I'm still waiting for the callup from Desert Island Discs, so
this is an expects thing.
Thank you for having me.
So yeah, travel, I mean it'ssomething I've never thought
about really, how I first gotinto travel or sort of got
wanderlust.
But thinking about it lastnight I was thinking back to
sort of teenage years and Ialways kind of had this absolute
(01:58):
certainty that when I leftschool what I wanted to do was
go travelling, and I think thatwas quite common at the time and
a bit less so now.
Which is, which is you?
know, slightly sad thing.
But and where did it come from?
I think probably part of it wasthat when I was 15, Around the
World in 80 Days came on.
Tv Michael Palin's great series, of which he did numerous
(02:19):
different seasons going ondifferent journeys, but that was
just.
You know, it was a huge thingat the time in British culture
and you know, the viewingfigures were insane.
It was like one in three peopleis watching it on terrestrial TV
on a Saturday night and thatreally, I think sort of
connected with me as animpressionable teenager, and so
I knew that I wanted to, youknow, follow in his footsteps
(02:41):
and go travelling.
And so, yeah, when I leftschool, that's the first thing I
did.
I worked for a bit, just, youknow, to get some money together
, and then hopped on a plane toDelhi and went up to Nepal I
mean classic sort of gap yearstuff.
Tom Marchant (02:54):
What a first place to go to, to Delhi.
I mean that moment, I mean.
Tom Robbins (02:58):
I remember the first time I arrived in Delhi,
the overwhelming feeling feltstepping out of the airport as a
sense of a different place,right I know we're going to talk
about emotions, and I mean justthat as probably one of the
most extreme emotions I've everhad, I think, probably arriving
there.
As you know, I've been on familyholidays before but I'd never
traveled on my own anywhere.
(03:19):
And I literally came out of theairport clutching a plastic bag
of heatrow Duty Free and a hugerucksack full of stuff to take
up into the mountains because Iwas going to go trekking in the
Himalayas and, you know, get hitby this wall of heat.
And I just turned around andwent straight back into the
airport and there's all thesepeople there, you know, saying
come and come and get in my taxiand get in my tuk tuk, and you
(03:41):
know, just a huge kind ofculture shock.
And and I was also just sobadly prepared you know that I'd
got a friend who was already upin katmandu and I thought I'll
just go from delhi to katmanduand uh, you know I had to work
out how to get to the station indelhi, how to buy a ticket, and
the whole thing was, you know,was in at the deep end really,
(04:03):
and I think the emotion of thatwas in a way terrifying but in a
way incredibly valuable for a18-year-old who, you know,
thinks he knows everything youknow and has been incredibly
cocky in life here in the UK andI don't know if you remember,
in the Hitchhiker's Guide to theGalaxy, my lame literary
(04:24):
allusion.
But there you go.
There's this thing called thetotal perspective vortex, which
is a torture device which givespeople an instant sense of their
own insignificance in thegalaxy.
And it was sort of like aversion of that, because it sort
of suddenly gives you aperspective that you never had
before, like instantly, and yourealise that the world is just,
(04:46):
you know, much, much bigger,yeah, than you ever knew and,
you know, just completelydifferent to what you knew.
Tom Marchant (04:52):
And I think that that's a really valuable lesson,
even though it's maybe notpleasant at that moment, like
you say, to go from, and I Iremember a similar thing with a
friend actually the guy Istarted black tomatoes when we
went.
We went to the philippinesfirst summer of uni and stepping
out at manila airport and itbeing so different and also back
in those days, like you say,like the ease of planning just
wasn't.
(05:12):
We had a tattered, lonelyplanet book and it was almost
like terrifying.
But then there was this feelingof right.
You sort of almost like stealyourself a bit and it brought
out sides of us, I think interms of like practicality or
curiosity, like to go get itdone.
That when you look back and go,actually that's a really
formative experience in terms ofhow you think about the world
and I love that point about thathow the world can beautifully
(05:34):
sometimes make you feel reallyinsignificant, which is a great
thing.
Tom Robbins (05:37):
Yeah I mean totally agree.
And, um, I mean, the good thingabout that trip was, you know,
I eventually did manage to getto catman, do, meet up with this
guy, and we went about thattrip was, you know, I eventually
did manage to get to Kathmanduand meet up with this guy and we
went trekking and it was, youknow, completely revelatory
really.
You know, we were trekking withmaps that we bought in Stamford
here in London and they werejust like terrible photocopies
(05:58):
of sort of like that blue, youknow early photocopy, and we'd,
like you know, just randomcontour lines on them.
And we got lost on our firstday and we went the wrong way
off the, you know, theestablished trekking trails.
We went off it and we ended upin this village, completely
untouristy, nowhere to stay, noinfrastructure, nothing.
And also it happened to be thefirst day of Holi, the festival,
(06:20):
you know.
And so as we walked into thistiny village, not sure where we
were, two guys from the homecounties, everyone just emerged
and started throwing the paintaround, you know the, the
powdered, brightly colored paint, and you know, just gleefully
screaming with joy, and thenthese two english boys turn up,
uh, and then, yeah, I mean, wedidn't think about it too much
(06:41):
at the time but looking back,you know, it was just a sort of
wild travel experience and thelocal teacher in that village
took us in and we slept on hisfloor and he gave us dinner and
we talked about, you know, thewhole development of the village
and how they felt that theywere slightly sidelined because
they were not on the trekkingroute and how they were
desperate to try and get tourismto start there.
But no, no, it's justfascinating and I think you, you
(07:03):
know, that experience kind ofset me up then for thinking,
yeah, this is definitely what Iwant to do.
Tom Marchant (07:06):
I was going to say like a couple of things are
interesting that notion thatsometimes when you're in the
moment you're enjoying it, butit's when you then reflect back
on it they almost sort of takeon a greater might or
significance in terms of theimpact it had on you to realize
and see what you've done.
And on trips like that or wasit trips, that which it clearly
sounds like there's a source ofso many ideas for stories or
things to be shared.
Is that where sort of the seedwas planted within you about?
(07:28):
I want to go and write and tellstories about travel or through
travel, or use this as avehicle to kind of you know
something to work on or explore?
Is that where the kind of theseed was planted?
Tom Robbins (07:39):
Not really, to be honest.
I, you know I just wanted tokeep travelling.
That was kind of my main goal.
And I went to university, didan english degree, you know,
specialized in old english, setme up for absolutely nothing in
a professional sense, uh, andgot a job at trail finders and
worked there for a year, youknow, really just so I could
(08:00):
keep traveling.
And you know it was a very sortof vibrant place to work
because everyone was there forthat reason.
You know, everyone was young andeveryone was there and you'd be
just going to work and someonewould have flown back from
Kazakhstan or whatever you knowall over the world, and so that
was great fun.
But at the same time I'd startedgetting interested in
journalism and not traveljournalism, actually news, which
(08:20):
is where I started and went tostudy and actually news, which
is where I started and went tostudy and then travel, kind of
kept going on in the background.
And you know I did news for anumber of years, I don't know
six years or something.
Tom Marchant (08:31):
And would you travel with that?
Tom Robbins (08:33):
role as well.
A bit but I mean mainly justdoing um sort of you know UK
news stories a lot of homeaffairs, that sort of thing.
I did get one amazingly luckygig as a young reporter on the
Sunday Times who was mainlycovering, you know, whatever
news had happened that week.
You know, train crashes,political things, whatever.
But the millennium rolledaround and in Fleet Street
(08:56):
everyone got into this weirdcompetition about who was going
to see the millennium first, thenew millennium, yeah.
And so people were sent off.
It would never happen today.
But people were dispatchedaround the world to be sort of
like oh, I'm just on thedateline, and the Sunday Times
had people in various places.
But I got sent to Antarcticabecause it was, you know,
(09:19):
24-hour sun there and it wastechnically the first sun.
I was going to say I didn't, youknow whatever, and it was
technically the first son of thenew year, you know, whatever,
and it was just just a bizarrething to go and see how they're
celebrating new year's eve.
Uh, I was at the new zealandbase in antarctica and did you
pitch that?
Tom Marchant (09:35):
no, I was gonna say that's the pitch of dreams,
or was?
Tom Robbins (09:38):
that I mean, yeah, I would not have had the
gumption to pitch that as a sortof young you know the young guy
on the news desk.
I.
I think they're basically like,oh, it's going to take, you
know, it's a long trip, so whocan we, who don't we need for
the next two weeks?
So, yeah, so they sent me offthere and actually I filed the
piece and they're like great,right, when are you back in the
(09:58):
office?
I was like two weeks time, sotime.
So no, that was that was just a, that was a lucky break, but um
, no, anyway, it was mainlymainly just doing news.
And then I moved into doingfeature stuff and then a job
actually came up on the observernewspaper and I really saw that
there was a chance of doingtravel, combining travel, my
great passion and work, and soleapt at that and got into it
(10:19):
that way.
Tom Marchant (10:19):
Yeah, amazing.
And you've seen the travelindustry evolve, change,
progress over the years andyou've seen the travel industry
evolve, change, progress overthe years and you've obviously
been beating hard, telling someof the best stories and finding
some of the best insights, andyou know we're talking a lot
about.
When we started Black Tomato,one of the big things was about
people might not know where theywant to go, but know how you
want to feel when you started todevelop your storytelling.
Has that changed from when youfirst started covering travel to
(10:43):
how it is now and did kind ofthat idea of pursuit of emotion
or finding interesting things towrite about beyond, just like
this is a place in theseactivities?
Was that really present then oris that kind of developed or
how does that sit in your world?
Tom Robbins (10:57):
yeah, I mean sort of how much emotion is in a
story is it's a tricky one and Idon't know it.
It's quite subjective anddepends on the outlet, you know
magazine and newspaper are quitedifferent, but I think there
has been a few changes in trend.
And when I was starting, youknow the big name in travel
writing was Bill Bryson.
I mean still is huge, but Imean his sales were just like
(11:17):
dwarfed the entire rest of thetravel writing industry and sort
of prompted this sense thattravel writing has to be
humorous.
And so there's a huge number ofcopycats who were doing like
not quite as funny you know,travel journeys and a lot of
newspaper travel writing sort ofwent down that route and sort
of it was kind of like dad jokeyeah, it was the sort of what
(11:39):
they're searching for, ratherthan something more you know,
straight and possibly havingmore of an emotional connection.
And then on the other side, youknow there is the sort of the
glossy mag way of doing it whereit's sort of like every single
piece has to have a emotionalepiphany in it you know, and
that starts to feel a little bitforced.
I think at times disingenuousyeah, exactly like every, every
(12:02):
trip, on the final day we seethe sunset and everything's
perfect, you know, and so I Ihope what we've done is is, I
don't know just a bit more, asort of emotional honesty to the
writing and sort of, wherethere is something that is that
is moving.
It's great to put that in andget that across and not be
scared of doing it, because it'snot like in that I'm just a, a
gag making travel writer.
You know it's real and emotionis important, so let's say that,
(12:24):
but also let's not push it, youknow yeah, and I think, like
what we really enjoyed on the,when we talk about emotions it's
the gamut right.
Tom Marchant (12:30):
So it's like when you first got into delhi.
There's that sort of terrifyingfear, I think it's.
I think personally if I'mmyself interested in writers or
stories where you said the wordthere's that honesty about kind
of what you're seeing or kind ofthe reaction it's going to
bring out in you.
I think travellers are quitekeen for that.
Sometimes we have some peoplesaying I'm looking to go
somewhere, I'm going to feelkind of challenged or out of my
(12:50):
comfort zone, but know thatsometimes with that comes all
sorts of kind of reactions thatare quite interesting.
Tom Robbins (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think there's aslight danger in pitching it
like just about emotions,because it obviously sounds a
bit like oh, I'm just thinkingabout me and what I'm going to
feel.
Whereas you know, one of thegreat drivers of wanting to
travel is to go and meet otherpeople and see, you know what
they, what they want to sayabout the world and and sort of
(13:18):
not forget about yourself butkind of, you know, find
something new.
Tom Marchant (13:25):
It's saying this is the only way you know that
you can feel, or also going tosomewhere and packaging
something as this is how it'sgoing to make feel and ignoring
kind of the other cultures andhow you might react to that.
And I think it's trying tomaybe stimulate, you know, a
level of curiosity to kind ofyou know, like the sense of the
unknown right, and sometimes,when you have something that's
(13:47):
unknown, the interesting bit ishow you're going to react to
something you don't know.
Tom Robbins (13:49):
And that could be good.
Tom Marchant (13:51):
I mean, do you ever like, when you're planning
trips, both personally or forEFT do you tend to look at like,
right, that's just a part ofthe world I'm interested in, or
is it going?
I don't necessarily know whereI'm going for, but I'm looking
for this kind of a trip which ismaybe it will challenge.
I'm looking for totaldisconnection and I want to see
how people in that kind of worldoperate.
(14:11):
What's the kind of the thoughtprocess as you look for places
in terms of what matters?
Tom Robbins (14:16):
when you go there, it's very different
professionally and personallyand you know, professionally,
we're looking at some reason whyit's in the newspaper now,
because writing appears in asection of news features.
It's not just a travel magazine, so it has to have some
newsiness to it.
So there's always, like some,you know, there's a new flight
(14:36):
going there or there's somereason or some trend.
So that's always the sort ofdriver for why we decide to go
to that place.
Yeah, yeah, newness, um, Iguess, is it is the way of
saying it, I mean.
But then once you have that,you know the piece can explore
deeply, whatever you know.
But then personally, absolutelyyeah, I mean I think my main
drivers are sort of getting tosomewhere remote, away from
other people.
I love going to mountainousareas because you tend to find
(14:58):
that in small, remote places youtend to have more authentic
interactions with people andcultures.
Tom Marchant (15:03):
I think and is that that getting away from
other people because I I'm thesame um?
Do you think that's also partof just a natural reaction to
the kind of the ebb and flow,the mania of the day-to-day,
like we're in these kind ofpre-manic lives?
I mean, it's obviously changeda lot last couple of years where
, arguably, some people saywe're more disconnected remote,
I personally think we're almostmore connected just because of
(15:24):
the digital world we operate in.
I mean, is that something thatyou think was almost a reaction
to that, or was it combined withthe way you've always liked it?
Tom Robbins (15:31):
Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it.
And you know.
The other thing is just howmuch change there is in our
daily lives.
You know, maybe it'sexacerbated by being a
journalist, so you're alwayslooking at, you know what's new
and the constant flow of news.
But I mean just living inLondon.
(15:54):
You know, when I go around thestreets everything's changed.
You know, I'm not make myselfsound incredibly old, but I mean
in the 20 years since I startedgoing out around Old Street and
stuff, you know the whole placeis changed.
The only thing that I stillrecognise are the old pubs you
know the 19th century pubs, andI have to navigate by them and
everything else is new.
So there's this huge changeeverywhere and when you get out
to sort of wilderness placesthere is a sense of you know
that that hasn't changed ascontinuity there's a sort of
eternity to those places andit's I don't mean wilderness,
(16:16):
like it has to be, antarctica, Imean.
You know, if you go to the lakedistrict you know that landscape
hasn't changed at all and thatcan be very sort of refreshing
mentally and and just sort of Idon't know, there's something
comforting about it yeah, maybeit's it's the wrong word to use
as being it's nostalgia, but Isee that personally.
Tom Marchant (16:32):
You're seeing people saying what are you
looking to feel?
Some people are like I want tofeel like you know there's a
constancy, like a connection tosomewhere that I felt good or I
know, but it's interesting and Ican keep revisiting, not
necessarily because I want tosee the change.
It's almost like Ireland'swrong word because, trying to
use a metaphor I'll get it wrongbut but somewhere you can go
back to and there's a calm orsomething to it yeah, totally.
Tom Robbins (16:51):
I mean, I think nostalgia is, uh, it's
interesting because I mean, I'vesaid already, newness is what
we're often traveling for, anddiscovery and for a newspaper
sense, you know, absolutelynewness is everything, but
actually nostalgia is, is a bigdriver, and I'm, you know also
that sense of instant nostalgia,like you get to the final day
of your trip and you'renostalgic for day one and you
know, I've definitely had thatbefore, and you sort of you know
(17:13):
that you're going to be lookingback on this for the rest of
the year and thinking back tothose days you've just had.
Tom Marchant (17:22):
So I talked about traveling for certain emotions.
Has there ever been a time thatyou could recall when you've
traveled and being, and itsurprised you with unexpected
emotions, things you weren'tanticipating?
Tom Robbins (17:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we sort of talked abouthow I got into travelling and
travelled more and when I becamea travel writer, obviously that
opened the doors and I couldtravel much more.
You start to become a littlebit not blasé, but you're used
to it.
That initial sense I wastalking about a fear of culture
shock arriving in Delhi.
That's long gone and you feelcompletely comfortable and you
(17:55):
know the danger obviously is.
Then that starts to numb yourreactions a bit and there's also
the sense you know of placeshaving become a little bit more
the same you know, especiallycities.
you know that we've seen overthe last 20 years whether it's
Instagram that's done that orwhatever but you know design and
food and whatever you know,it's harder to tell whether
you're in Brooklyn or Hoxton orwherever you know, Anyway, I had
(18:16):
a bit of a sense of that.
And then around 2008, I went toGreenland with my family.
We sort of arrived there and Iwas sort of thinking it would
just be, you know, a nice sortof outdoorsy adventure kind of
trip.
I hadn't really thought toomuch about it.
It really surprised me with thesense of discovering something
new and your assumptions aboutthe world being wrong.
Owen Vince (18:39):
I'll just give you an example because that sounds
nebulous.
Tom Robbins (18:41):
But on the first day we went from Nuuk, the
capital, to this camp up thefjord, the side of the fjord,
and on the way the boat driversaid let's try some fishing.
And I was like, oh, I've gottwo toddlers with me, it's six
o'clock, I mean, this is not atime to be messing around with
fishing rods.
Anyway, he got out thesethey're not fishing rods
(19:02):
actually, they were just likewooden frames, like a sort of
old football rattle rattle, youknow, from the 1960s, and
unwound the twine off these andthey had hooks on them, no bait
at all, drop them down into thefjord.
I was thinking, oh, this isgonna take ages, it's gonna be
cold, the kids are gonna getangry because they're not eaten.
Um, anyway, we just unwind them.
(19:23):
And he says, right now, pullthem back in.
So we literally pulled themback in.
Look down, suddenly I could seeall these sort of flashes of
silver and the water was soclear that you suddenly realised
that you could see hundreds ofmetres down and it sort of gave
you a slight sense of vertigobecause you weren't aware of it.
Anyway, he's pulled them up andon that first line there was
like three massive cod on myline, three or four more on my
(19:44):
daughter's, and you know, nobait or anything.
He just pulled them straight upand just because the fjord is
absolutely full of cod and thekids were sort of like, oh great
, that's fishing.
Owen Vince (19:52):
And I was like whoa, that's not fishing.
That's not normal fishing.
Normally you're here for hours.
Tom Robbins (19:56):
Yeah, and just you know, there kept being things
like that and that just requiredyou to sort of forget all your
assumed learning and you knoweverything that you've built
over the years.
It just felt like you'regetting rid of that and learning
something for the first time.
Another day we were going outon on a speedboat and I sort of
had this really weird sensationof not moving, even though it
had a big engine on it and wewere going at full speed.
(20:18):
But because the air is so clear, things that are far away look
closer, and so I was just like,wow, I can't even really judge
distance anymore.
You know, that's sort of that,that kind of newness, and so I
thought I mean that whole tripwas was a succession of those
kind of things.
And you know, looking aticebergs, and you know you've
always thought icebergs arewhite and totally silent and
(20:41):
serene.
They're the sort of epitome ofthat.
You know, actually up close,they're all different colors,
you know, some of them are blue,some of them are gray, some of
the white, and because we'rethere in summer, they're
constantly moving becausethey're melting in the water and
so they're just constantlyhissing because they're
releasing air or they're turningover because their centre of
balance has changed.
Constant motion.
(21:02):
I've just never thought aboutthat before and yeah, so that
kind of trip really is veryrefreshing, to have that kind of
sense of right.
Wow, actually I don't knoweverything about the world.
Tom Marchant (21:12):
I was going to say for the expert and authority
you are as one of the leadingtravellers in the world and
therefore totally understandablewhy that you could at times
think well, I've kind of mightnot have been there, but I'll
know what it's like to seesomewhere bringing out that
reaction.
That's the power of travel,isn't it?
Tom Robbins (21:31):
It's one of the beauties of how the world keeps
throwing things up that canchallenge you, but I wouldn't
want to give the impression thatit always has to be really
far-flung new destinations itcan be.
Sometimes you can get surprisedby emotions in weird moments and
sometimes it's the downtime intrips I remember me and my kids
always talk about.
This time we went on a greattrip to Trieste in Italy and the
(21:51):
thing we always look back onwhat was the best thing?
We did loads of great things,but the thing that they enjoyed
most was this hour when we werein the hotel room and we watched
archery on the telly.
It's one of those things whereyou can't get any channels but
we, for some reason, we'rewatching an archery channel and
they loved it and it was thesense of oh, we've got nothing
else to do at the moment, butwe're all there together having
this slightly weird experience.
Tom Marchant (22:11):
I love that.
It's funny I've got young kidstoo and the things that stick
out suddenly are you plan andyou think you've got a feeling
about what's going to work forthem.
But it's how these things jumpout and give you a different
take.
I mean, it wasn't, as Iremember some years ago, a
friend.
They put together this wholekind of family travel.
They're trying to be quiteadventurous.
So our clients went and they inAsia and there's lots of hiking
(22:32):
with kids on shoulders and itwas quite extreme and quite
challenging.
I think the person got back andsaid for the place you went to,
my kid got.
Most excited was when westopped at a service station on
the way home from the airportand there were three cows by the
fence and you know, two weeksin Asia.
There was in Asia becausenothing compares to these three
accounts.
So it's like the money, but Ithink there's also that there's
that idea, isn't it?
Or that notion of like, whenyou're kind of seeing the world
(22:55):
through like children's eyes, orseeing how they're reacting to
that.
That's one of my greatest joysis being travelling with my kids
and seeing.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto be.
Yeah, I still think about thisplace.
Growing up, we used to go onfamily holidays south of France,
in the Vendée, and there's thislittle village called Apremont
and I still think about it a lotand it'd be interesting to go
(23:16):
there this summer.
This little lake that you go toand I've probably built it up
in my head, I've reallyromanticised it so we can see
what it's like but that still tome sounds one of just messing
around in the lake and justeverything, feeling just relaxed
and at a point in time.
So it's quite nice when you'rein a world of yeah, what's next,
what's new?
When it's charging around tokind of recalibrate, kind of
(23:36):
what might be important.
Tom Robbins (23:37):
Yeah, We've gone back a few times to this
particular cottage in the LakeDistrict, which is totally
remote, off-grid, you know,stunning views and all the rest
of it.
And we said afterwards to ouryoungest we love going there, he
loves going there.
What's your favourite thingabout it?
What's so special?
He said the chopping boards.
They've got a set of differentchopping boards for meat, fish
(23:58):
and vegetables or something.
I was like, oh right, okaygreat I love that, but anyway,
stupid example.
But talking about adventure andhow travelling with kids kind of
opens your eyes again.
I mean, we've done a couple ofwalking trips in the Alps which
have been a good success, whichwere kind of worked out that
with kids they will walk a longway but as soon as it goes
(24:18):
uphill they'll start moaning.
So they're happy to walkdownhill.
I mean, all kids love beingoutside.
There's a natural sort ofdesire to climb on rocks and
stuff.
You know every playground has aclimbing frame in it, um, but
they're just, you know, ploddinguphill.
They all just start moaning,which makes the holiday awful.
So we worked out that you couldgo to the alps in summer where a
lot of the ski lifts are stillopen and they're not that well
(24:41):
marketed or publicized.
It's quite hard to know whichones are open, but you can do it
if you research it.
And so we worked out a route ofwhere we'd go up a ski lift
every morning and spend the daywalking over into the next
valley, stay in a hotel there ora refuge and then the next day
go up again and keep going.
So do like a multi-day walk,that's kind of easy for the kids
.
I mean, it's still a long day,you're still out all day, but
(25:03):
that's worked brilliantly and wedid it in Italy.
But just you know, walking on a, on a mountain path, that I
wouldn't think twice about doingit with my son holding my hand.
And suddenly you're like, ohright, yeah, there is a big drop
down there and he's not awareof it.
He's bending down to pick uprocks and stuff.
And you know I remember doingthis and after we'd done this
(25:24):
section of steep path, we got tothe far bit and I sort of
looked down.
I realized my hand was sweatingwith, you know, I was
absolutely adrenaline and youknow, excitement, terror that
like I haven't experienced foryears, you know, on this
completely benign littlemountain path, you know, but it
kind of gave a thrill to thewhole thing yeah, we're talking
about like the physicalchallenge.
Tom Marchant (25:43):
Like you are a you know, an amazing skier renowned
writer on it.
You know your book WhiteWeekends is a fantastic one.
You like obviously clearlyphysical challenges in different
ways, but it seems thatphysical challenges, just to
what you're saying there cankind of almost intensify the
emotional experience that comeswith it.
Right, do you see that and whydo you think that is?
I mean, apart from it beingterror aside.
But what do you see thatconnection as?
Tom Robbins (26:04):
I definitely do.
I mean, it's quite hard toexplain why, isn't it?
But I think there's a sense ofdoing something real.
You know, if it's somethingthat's challenging physically,
you know it's.
It's not a sort of confected uhactivity that that someone in a
, in a marketing department, hasthought up you know it's like
it's a real thing that'schallenging you, and the
emotions are obviously real,which is really what we're in
search of.
(26:24):
There's also that sense of youknow.
Happiness lies on the other farside of doing something
difficult.
I'd love to say was nietzsche,but I think it's probably from
harry potter.
And so there is that sense of,you know, I've got a focus for
this trip, which is great.
You know, I think that's reallyimportant for people to have
something, that I'm not justgoing there then I'm going to
wake up on the first morning ofmy trip and think what am I
(26:45):
going to do?
They know there's a focus tothis and that's, in a way, more
important than achievingwhatever getting to the top of
the mountain or something.
It's like having that goal andthen working towards it in the
lead up to the trip as well, but, uh, during the trip, and then
hopefully achieving it andfeeling the sort of the sense of
that you're going to havesomething rewarding to look back
(27:06):
on um, so satisfaction as well,isn't it?
Tom Marchant (27:08):
it's.
It's like the notion of theearned experience, like where
you feel like you've worked, youknow I thought you hit the nail
on the head there about, likeyou know, before you're going
you're thinking about it andwhen you're there you're focused
and whether it's a really longtrek or it's climbing a mountain
or skiing tough routes or doinga marathon, place at that end
point, no matter where you are,how you've done, you feel like
I've worked hard for this, I'veearned this experience and the
(27:32):
endorphins.
Maybe you get from that, thatsense and again going back to
what we talked about earliersense of reaction to our
relatively cozy day-to-day itjust seems to be producing far
more heightened than you, Iguess definitely.
Tom Robbins (27:43):
I mean, I think one thing I would say that people
don't talk about too much, butdefinitely people have said to
me, is that there is a definitesense of anti-climax.
Often after you've achieved youknow, if you've been working
all year to go and climb MontBlanc or something or do a
marathon the idea that you'regoing to reach the top of that
mountain and have some kind ofinstant revelation and the
(28:04):
angels are going to sing isactually not there.
I mean, it can be, it can beamazing if it does.
But a lot of people feel like,oh, all that goal I've had all
year it's gone.
Uh, they feel a bit of, youknow sense of emptiness
afterwards and anti-climax asthey get on the plane to come
home.
Tom Marchant (28:19):
But in my experience, you get a longer
term benefit and you know it'sover the next year that you can
think back to it and I totallyagree and and it's sort of like
it's not about sort of tickingthings off to say I've done it,
but the longer term reflectionon that was significant.
A bit like we were sayingearlier about the stuff you do
when you first went to Delhi andyou look back and go.
I remember I did the the newyork marathon last year and yeah
(28:42):
, I definitely rememberfinishing and going, ah, and
then within about two minutesafter my legs were seizing up
and just going and seeingfriends at a bar, just thinking
it was okay and then stillthinking that was a long time
thing, but then, as time's goneon, you go, that was great and
then actually almost acts asanother catalyst.
You know I'm gonna do somethingelse, but yeah, definitely.
Tom Robbins (29:02):
I mean, I think, with adventure though it's
important to say adventuredoesn't have to be, you know,
something physically difficultrunning a marathon, whatever and
you know thinking about what.
You know what constitutes anadventure, and you know we've
had.
You know, driving a drivingtrip across America could be an
amazing adventure.
We had a great long weekend ona narrow boat on the droitwich
(29:24):
canal, you know, and it wasdefinitely an adventure because
we've never done it before.
We're driving this great big,long boat and not sure what
we're doing, and I think, for me, the the key is that you have
agency, that you're the onemaking the decisions.
I mean, it could be that it's acity break and you're the one
exploring the galleries and barsand whatever you know, but
you're not.
You know in aviation is thisphrase that passengers are
(29:47):
self-loading freight you knowthat you're being directed by
someone else.
I think, wherever you have yourown agency, you're the one
making decisions.
Then there's a sense ofadventure to it, and that's not
to say only independent travelis adventurous because you know,
loads of the best things I'vedone have had a guide with me
and organized through a touroperator, and they're the ones
(30:07):
who've opened the doors to thatexperience I totally agree and I
think, like this sense ofadventure, right, which is what
comes with that, what does itmean?
Tom Marchant (30:14):
it's like the not knowing, the kind of every day
being something different.
You're not knowing how it'sgoing to make you feel that that
is an exciting thing, that's aninteresting prospect and it's
funny.
You're absolutely right.
I think I'm not just sayingbecause you know I'm a tour
operator, but we often talk atblack tomato and it's sounds
like cliche about this notion oflike framed spontaneity, right.
So it's our job to kind ofintroduce people to parts of the
(30:34):
world and be there to kind ofsuggest and and put together but
to then encourage to go off andhave moments and go and
discover and have your ownagency to do that.
It's never been been aboutindividual preferences, sort of
going I need every hour, everyday, accounted for, because I
think some of the best thingsthat ever happened to me or
clients have done things thatare almost like the unexpected
and tiny things that come withthat where, like you say, it's
(30:56):
nice to feel that you'rediscovering too, and I think,
never losing sight of thatfeeling.
Making people feel that you'rediscovering off your own back, I
think, is sight of that feeling, yeah, making people feel like
you're discovering off your ownback.
Tom Robbins (31:06):
I think it's really important, absolutely.
I mean, I'd say my absolute,all-time favorite travel emotion
is when you're doing somethingand you just suddenly get struck
by a sense of I can't believethey're letting me do this.
You know, and you know we'vehad that a few times we did a
boat trip.
We're into venice and insteadof staying in a hotel or getting
around by gondola, we had aself-drive houseboat that you
(31:28):
pick up just slightly inland,then you come down the river and
then you just park up whereveryou want in the lagoon and you
explore it.
But you're sort of like the guygives you an hour demonstration
and it's a big boat, you know,it's got like six bedrooms on it
and you're just driving thisaround and you're driving up
past St Mark's Square in Veniceand you know there's tourist
boats going past and you're thecaptain of your own boat.
(31:49):
You're like am I really allowedto do this?
And I just think that the joyof that is, you know, immense.
We went last year to Namibia anddid a driving trip.
Um, and again you're sort ofthey just hand you the keys to
the car and then you're like, oh, the road, the tarmac, just
ended.
Now I'm driving on sand.
Yeah, I don't really know howto do this, but uh, it's, you
(32:09):
know, it's fine.
You know it's actually theroads are fine, but it's, you
know, literally you've flownthere and suddenly you're
driving along and there's ajackal by the side of the road
running along next to you as youdrive or sort of getting your
book out going jackals are likelike fine, yeah, you totally,
and I mean that kind of sense ofI can't quite believe I'm here
and I can't quite believethey're letting me do it.
(32:30):
That's really amazing.
Tom Marchant (32:31):
I think namibia itself as a source of just
interesting experiences I'vealways found fascinating.
I think one of the greatesttrips I took was there.
In fact, you know this thing wetalked about earlier about sort
of an unexpected like emotion.
I think first time I went tonamibia this was way back in the
day to show my age because Ihad a blackberry right and uh
and black tomato wasn't longstarted but ended up like up on
(32:52):
the skeleton coast where we gotto first and pulled out and no
signal and those days we werestarting the business.
It really connected and myinitial emotion was like panic
right you know, and I think, and, and then probably some comedy
footage of me running to the topof some dune holding a
blackberry in the middle of theskeleton coast, one of the most
remote places on earth.
Unexpected, but quickly, thatgave way to a kind of this is
good.
(33:12):
Actually, I can't do anythingabout it and actually I can
really lean into being presentin this place, which then went
on to give me one of the bestexperiences I've had in my life,
because I didn't have naggingin my brain.
I need to check my phone to seewhat's happened.
You know, and I think it was inthe area for like five days,
you know, eventually got aflight down to Cape Town and as
you land to Cape Town, you know,phone on signal came in and you
(33:33):
know, you discovered that.
You know the world hadn'tstopped turning, things were
fine and actually it wasprobably one of the best things
and unexpected that would happenand the panic was the
unexpected emotion, but gave meone of the best trips, or I then
tried to replicate it yearslater, going to places there was
signal, going to my friend hidemy phone right and then about
an hour you know day later, justjust give it back.
(33:53):
Just give it back.
Tom Robbins (33:53):
So, um, uh, didn't work, but yeah, namibia is a
source of interesting thingsyeah, it's like that reminds me
of um, the story of the um polarexplorer, erling Kager,
pronouncing that wrong, I'm sure.
But he did a North Pole I can'tremember if it was North or
South Pole trek, you knowmulti-month, and as part of his
insurance deal he had toconstantly have his GPS
(34:16):
emergency tracker on.
That was part of thearrangement and as he got flown
in the small propeller plane todrop him off at his start point
for this long trek, he justquietly took out the batteries
of this thing and left them onthe plane because he wanted that
you know he wanted to betotally alone, and he did it
obviously these words like youknow, digital detox are so
(34:36):
overused and it's kind ofterrible being a bup.
Tom Marchant (34:38):
I still think it's one of the best kind of forms
of wellness out there if you canbe alone and also being alone
with your thoughts.
Being alone in a place, youknow, I think you get more
interesting thoughts when you'realone with them.
So the ultimate luxury exactlywhen people talk to you about
places and maybe countriesyou've been to or journeys
you've taken that have justdelivered something
(34:59):
extraordinary for you.
You know, are there any placesthat you quickly go to and go?
Tom Robbins (35:04):
time spent in this place is just an incredible
thing to have I mean, you know,boringly, I'm afraid, my ideal
is going back to the alpswhenever I can, uh, summer or
winter.
Just think there is somethingvery special about going to the
sort of authenticity of thevillages there and you know the
fact that it's in the right, inthe center of europe, but you're
(35:25):
sort of hiding away up at theend of these valleys and where
you know life hasn't changed.
Well, I mean life has changedcompletely because they were
incredibly poor, uh, and now nowthey're living this really nice
lifestyle.
But I mean the traditions arestill very, very strong there
and and obviously you know theoptions for like walking and
skiing and everything are thereas well.
But yeah, I mean I just go backto greenland like a shot.
(35:46):
Obviously there's a newairport's, just open there which
makes it easier.
I mean it's, you know, obviouslythinking about that in a
slightly anxious way, becausewill it change what was there?
My hunch is that it's not apanic actually.
Yeah, you know the numbers willstill be limited and you know
it's such a vast place that it'sgoing to be okay.
But yeah, absolutely We'd goback there.
Namibia I had a greatexperience in the empty quarter
(36:08):
in Oman.
Tom Marchant (36:10):
Yeah, I've still not got there yet.
That always just grabs me, andonce I still haven't got there,
I mean just special right.
Tom Robbins (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, it was again one of the sense of
are we really allowed to do this?
Because you know, we went witha tour operator and it was the
guide driving us, was somehowconnected to the Oman military
and he was just going throughthese military posts where he
was flashing his warrant cardand we were driving further and
further out into the desert andyou know, sort of coming up to
(36:38):
the Yemen border, you knowhighly sensitive, but just you
know total desert and totallywild and amazing skies and just
an amazing experience to bethere.
Tom Marchant (36:49):
yeah, I think I feel that way about a few places
in ethiopia.
I think it's always been reallyinteresting.
Just for the contrast as well.
It just feels quite differentas well.
You feel quite lucky to go tosome parts of it but,
interesting as well.
Like you know, there are placesthat are kind of preserved in
time, but not in a kind ofyou've got to stay that way.
You know it's.
It's not kind of tourism comingin to say, you know, be like
this forever and change, butit's a really, really unique
(37:11):
place in terms of the blend ofdifferent cultures yeah, yeah
what about, um, for good reason,one travel journalist of the
year many times.
Is there a kind of a magicformula?
Maybe not asking to give itaway, but that that thing, that
kind of you think, kind ofdefines your approach to, kind
of when you're looking at, kindof telling stories, I mean, I I
guess.
Tom Robbins (37:31):
Uh, what I like to do, and encourage our ft writers
to do, is to not just think ofthemselves as a tourist who's
writing down what they've doneon their holiday.
You know, one totally validapproach to travel writing is
I'm writing about the experienceof a holiday.
I should just go as a holidaymaker and write down what
happens to me, Whereas I thinkactually, no, you're not just
(37:55):
going as a holiday maker, you'regoing as a journalist.
You need to do more work.
You need to interview peoplewhen you get there.
You need to do some backgroundreading before you get there.
And you need to use that to tellthe story of the place as well
as the story of your holiday.
You know, both of those areimportant and they're both two
sides to the coin.
(38:15):
And if you were just talkingabout the place, then it would
sort of veer into foreignreporting, you know, and there
would be a story about somethinghappening there.
Foreign reporting, you know,and, and there'll be a story
about something happening there.
And it's important that you'regiving the story and the
emotions of your holiday as well, you know, because that's what
it's all about, that's whatwe're describing.
Tom Marchant (38:32):
But I still think that you should be able to give
the reader more than just yeah,what happened to you and do you
think also by doing that itopens new ideas or ways to
explore a place and if someone'syou're looking at purely for
this is probably my holiday,because sometimes people go on
holidays, they can travel inquite a kind of parameterised
way and I'm just going to dothis, but actually by having
more colour about the place, itmight prompt people to explore
(38:54):
further or consider other things.
Tom Robbins (38:55):
Yeah, or not necessarily go further, but just
to delve deeper into where theyare, and I think particularly
just talking to people andarriving somewhere and saying to
the local tourist board youknow, I want to interview
someone about this or whatever.
That's just such an importantway of adding depth to where you
are, you know, whether it bethe history of the little alpine
(39:16):
village where you are, or youknow you're meeting someone
who's.
I did this ski tour trip inSwitzerland and we ended up in
this tiny village where it's cutoff the entire winter but
there's still a few people wholive there and it's literally it
could be 1910.
You know there's no access tothe outside world and you know,
great to be there, great skiingto get there.
But then I met there this oldguy who'd lived there his whole
(39:38):
life.
He was wearing clothes that his, his wife had made his clothes
for him.
And you know, this was likelast year, you know, and it was
such a window into thetraditions of this Alpine
village, you know, and thatwould never have happened if I
hadn't been like, oh, I need tointerview someone, you know.
So that does definitely add toit.
Tom Marchant (40:02):
When we talk about emotion in travel, you know
it's a whole spectrum ofemotions.
It's not just about thehappiness and the joy.
It's also about we talked aboutbeing terrified.
Is there anything that you canremember on a trip either
unexpected or possibly where youfelt scared or overwhelmed or
perhaps even melancholic?
Tom Robbins (40:18):
Yeah, we touched briefly on that sense of
anti-climax after a big goal abig adventure travel goal, and
also we talked about nostalgia,which can be a sort of, you know
, bittersweet thing.
Um, I've returned to quite alot of places in recent years.
You know that I went to earlierand not consciously seeking out
nostalgia, but I think that wasprobably there and I don't know
(40:42):
if it's a pleasant experience ornot really, but it's certainly
an emotion that you feel.
The other thing is homesickness, which nobody who works in the
travel industry talks about orlikes to admit to, but I think
I've definitely felt that indifferent places, and there's
(41:02):
the sense of re-evaluating whatyou've got at home because
you're away and you know, to the.
The obvious thing is that youknow you value more what you
have at home because you'remissing it.
Whether that be, oh, actuallyyou know we spend our whole
lives at home moaning about thecountry and what's wrong with it
, but actually, when you're away, you know actually it'd be
quite nice to go, yeah, for aroast dinner in a pub or
(41:25):
something like that, you know,but also just like the family
setup that you, that you missand think back to and and makes
you value more.
So that's definitely a valuableit's like it's the perspective
it brings, isn't it?
Tom Marchant (41:35):
yeah, I guess, yeah, being being around.
That I definitely agree withthat as well.
Certainly like, yeah, theindustry working.
You know we can spend our wholelives.
Often we do charging rounds,looking, and then you sometimes
need that distance to reflect onwhat you've got at home.
Last couple of questions, tom,this podcast is called Pursuit
of Feeling.
What does that mean to you?
Tom Robbins (41:53):
It's just a way of framing it, isn't it really?
Because whatever is the drivingfactor for you going somewhere,
if you say you want to escape,you want to go to explore a
particular desert, there's stillan emotion or a feeling driving
that, even if in your mindyou're just thinking, oh, I've
always wanted to go to the EnediDesert, or whatever.
So I guess for me I would neversay I'd write down a list of I
(42:15):
want to feel this emotion andthis is where I'm going to go.
That would never happen.
But I mean behind that,obviously, emotions and feelings
are what it's all about.
Tom Marchant (42:25):
Yeah, I think it's an excellent description.
And lastly, where's next in thein the tom robbins travel
calendar?
What do you have coming up?
Tom Robbins (42:33):
um, well, very next is, uh, ski trips, which is to
a ghost resort which is a, aresort that's closed down in the
swiss alps, and uh, there'snothing there, just ruin falling
over lifts.
And the idea is that it'sweirdly becoming popular again
amongst people going ski touringwho are, you know, rejecting
the sort of more commercialisedworld of skiing and just going
(42:55):
to walk uphill themselves.
You know that sport isabsolutely booming and in the US
it's the second fastest growingsport after pickleball, you
know, and 20 years ago it usedto just be bearded old men who
did this weirdly ascetic thingof walking up mountains, but now
it's got a whole newconstituency.
So, yeah, I'm going there tohave a look at that.
(43:16):
And then, yeah, I mean honestly,my partner is infuriated that I
always want to go to cold,mountainous places.
She's desperate to go tosomewhere warm, to Sri Lanka
this year.
But I'd love to go back toSouth America, which is
somewhere I travelled a fair bitwhen I was much younger and
haven't been for a long time,just because of the length.
You've got to go for a longtime to make it worthwhile, and
especially if you're going totake the kids.
(43:37):
And also Mexico, I'd love to Ithere.
Latin themed nice, yeah, I mean,I think in the UK we have, you
know, a real blind spot aboutSouth America and agreed just
culturally and also in ourtravel industry, just because of
how far it is to get there.
Tom Marchant (43:53):
But it's fascinating always worth the
trip.
Brilliant.
Well look, tom.
Thank you so much for joiningus on the Superfamous podcast.
An illuminating chat, as Ihoped.
It would be always inspired byuh, by what you share.
So thank you for your time anduh and coming on.
Tom Robbins (44:06):
Thank you, Tom.
Owen Vince (44:06):
It's been a great pleasure.
You've been listening to thepursuit of feeling, a podcast by
black tomato.
If you've enjoyed this episode,then please hit the subscribe
button.
We've got a lot more episodeson the way and if you're feeling
inspired by what you've heardtoday, then visit blacktomatocom
.
We'll help you to travel whereyour heart is.
(44:28):
Thanks for listening.
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