Episode 4 – James Lohan, the man who transformed how we think about hotels

When it comes to designing the perfect hotel, mood is everything. James Lohan should know; as the founder of boutique hotel bible Mr & Mrs Smith, he – alongside Tamara Lohan, his wife and business partner – helped us forget star ratings and thread counts and to embrace the idea that hotels are conveyors of emotion.

In this episode, James shares his insights, tips, and expertise from a life spent thinking critically about the places where travelers sleep. You can also expect a spirited panegyric to Ibiza, as well his essential picks for hotels and destinations you don’t want to miss. In his words: “don’t just go to the obvious places; go deeper”. We couldn’t agree more.

Episode Transcript

Owen Vince (00:01):
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this new series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
In each episode, you'll alsoget a Rolodex of recommendations
from our guests on where to go,what to do and where to stay

(00:23):
all around the world.
Where to go, what to do andwhere to stay all around the
world.

Tom Marchant (00:26):
Today's guest is James Lohan, a true pioneer in
the world of modern travel andhospitality.
Alongside his wife, tamara, heco-founded the trailblazing
brand Mr and Mrs Smith, a namethat reshaped the way we
discover and book boutiquehotels around the world.
Their mission when they beganwas simple but radical to
specialise in special, and indoing so they created a movement
.
Together, james and Tamara wereawarded MBEs, that's Member of

(00:58):
the Order of the British Empire,a national honour given for
outstanding service, in theircase, to the travel industry.
James is widely regarded as oneof the most innovative and
disruptive minds in the business.
In this episode, he shares howMr and Mrs Smith began, the
philosophy behind its enduringsuccess and how their approach
changed the landscape ofexperiential travel.
We talk about restaurants astheatres for food, the emotional
pull of Ibiza, and why musicand lighting are just as
important as design in craftinga hotel's atmosphere.

(01:19):
He also reveals some of hisall-time favourite destinations,
the kind of places that staywith you long after you leave To
settle in.
This is the Pursuit of Feeling.
Delighted to be joined on thePursuit of Feeling podcast by
the one and only Mr James Lohan,founder of one of, if not the
most iconic travel brand to comeout of the UK in the last 20

(01:41):
years inspiration to theindustry, the hospitality
industry, and someone who hascreated something that has left
an indelible mark on anyone whenit comes to thinking about
travel.
And great to have James on thepodcast today to talk more about
the relationship we'reexploring, which is that between
travel and emotions.
So firstly, james, thank youvery much for joining us today.

James Lohan (02:02):
Well, thank you, tom, very kind of you to invite
me onto your new show.
Yes, thank you very much forjoining us today.
Well, thank you, tom, very kindof you to invite me onto your
new show.
Yes, thank you, I'm veryexcited.
Well, it's good to have youhere.

Tom Marchant (02:07):
I think, before we get into the meat of it, just
tell us a little bit aboutyourself and your relationship
it's a big one with travel.

James Lohan (02:14):
Okay, so I got into travel, as you said, about 20
years ago, 21, 22 years agoBefore that always been running
businesses that I've beenlooking after my peers, I guess.
So I started off many years agoDJing, promoting nightclubs,
had my own event managementcompany, then went on to own a
bar, restaurant and members barin Clapham called the White

(02:36):
House many years ago, and thenthat then developed into a love
for hotels.
So really I think I've alwaysbeen very entrepreneurial,
always liked working inindustries that I understood
because it's my friends and whatwe wanted to do.
I think it's a really nice wayto kind of run businesses when
you understand the audience, Iguess.
And then after that, hotels, asI said, became the fascination.

(02:56):
I thought there was a gap in themarket and back in those days
we were doing guidebooks.
Before you know, this is reallyat the beginning of travel as
we used to know it, beforeonline really took off, and so,
yeah, guidebooks is where westarted and, um, yeah, the
business has been kind ofgrowing into a full sort of
travel club, if you like, now,which we are today and yeah, so

(03:17):
who knows?
we'll see what's next, but it'sprobably going to be like
gardening boutique care homes,something like that.
As I get older know.

Tom Marchant (03:23):
But you'll disrupt it again and in terms of just
going back to that, from gettinginto hotels and with those
books because I remember them sowell and how striking and
iconic, and again something thatjust shook up even the world of
guidebooks Do you remember themoment when you sort of landed
upon the idea?
Was it a gradual progression orwas it something that said
actually we can see thisopportunity.

James Lohan (03:48):
Yeah, upon the idea .
Was it a gradual progression orwas it something that said,
actually we can see thisopportunity?
Yeah, it was actually, um, adisastrous weekend away with my
now wife.
It all ended happily ever after.
Thankfully she was mygirlfriend, I was trying to
impress her, taking her away onromantic weekends away and
failing miserably, and it wasjust one of those weekends that
was going particularly badly.
Uh, that we decided we shoulddo our own hotel guidebook.
It was literally there and then, and so we kind of concocted
the idea while we were away onthis miserable trip to the Lake

(04:08):
District and I think everyone'shad the little black book idea
we were just the couple thatended up doing it and, I think,
doing it slightly differently toeveryone else, I guess, and
luckily, you know, it sort ofcaught fire and 20-odd years
later it's still going.

Tom Marchant (04:19):
So, yeah, it's all been good For you before this
journey started.
Did it mean lots to you?
Growing up, you know, wastravel something that you
thought I could see myselfending up in this world?

James Lohan (04:33):
No, to be honest with you, I did one of those
psychometric tests once for ajob, many, many years ago, and
it said I was very homely anddidn't like travelling much
Ignore that yeah the irony isdefinitely not lost, but I am
quite homely as well, and so, no, I don't think travel was ever
something that I thought I wouldmake a career out of.
But I think it's notnecessarily the travel for me.
It was very much about thehotels that got me excited about
travel Because I think you knowwhat it's like.

(04:54):
Hotels are places where so manyincredible occasions can happen
Birthdays, anniversaries, youknow, first weekends away with
your girlfriend, whatever itmight be.
They've always played, I think,a really important part in
people's lives, and there'ssomething about hotels Like so.
At Mr and Mrs Smith we callourselves the travel club for
hotel lovers.
You know, we love hotels.
There's something special aboutthem and I think that's what

(05:16):
kind of really drew me to it.
Yes, I absolutely love travelnow, of course I do.
Who doesn't really?
But when I was younger andgrowing up, I grew up with just
my mum.
My parents were divorced and wedidn't really have much money.
We didn't really travel thatmuch.
You know, my earliest memorieswere probably going to Cornwall
and at Poleseth or something,and I do remember going away
with a friend.
Then I was probably eight ornine.

(05:36):
I was at boarding school as well, so it was quite strict, and so
getting that freedom on a beachand going off body surfing on
your own or rock pooling orwhatever, was the kind of first
early memories of a bit oftravel and thinking this is,
this is fun, this is a bit offreedom, I guess, is the emotion
that I was really looking forand then that developed over
time and yeah.
So really I didn't starttraveling, I would say, in

(05:58):
earnest, until I was probablyyeah, I'd say late teens, early
20s.
Then it started to kick off abit as I got my first job,
started to earn some money,started to want to take girls
away to you know, weekends away,and that's what kind of got me
interested in it, I think.

Tom Marchant (06:14):
And with the sort of the start of Mr and Mrs Smith
started with the UK right.

James Lohan (06:18):
Yeah.

Tom Marchant (06:19):
And did you see in your vision then, right, you
know we're going to buildsomething here, but we can see
how this can become a globallylike.

James Lohan (06:26):
Oh, I'd love to say it was a brilliant plan from
the onset.

Tom Marchant (06:28):
Do you want?

James Lohan (06:29):
to see.
We didn't even know if we'd domore than one book at that point
.
I mean we both had proper jobsin those days.
I was in PR, tam was working atHonda actually, so she was
marketing there and doinganalytics and deciding what
colours Hondas should come outof the factory and how many they
need of each colour and allsorts of things.
So she's very operational, veryanalytical, very technical,
whereas I was always thinkingwhere's the gap, what's not

(06:51):
going right, what's not good.
And I think when we started itwe thought that we'd sell the
idea to a publisher and, just,you know, go back to our day
jobs, and we had really no ideathat it would develop into into
a full service travel club.
I think all we were botheredabout at that point was getting
the book done and getting on theshelves.
That was the first mission andlet's see how it goes from there

(07:12):
.
You know, we had no idea thatwe were lucky enough to create a
brand almost overnight, I wouldsay.
I mean you know it took a littlewhile, but it was definitely
not something that we had, aplan that we hatched.
We just thought we were goingto publish books for a while and
see what happens from there.

Tom Marchant (07:25):
With the hotels themselves and we're going to
get on to kind of the role thathotels play and what's that
emotional hit they give you.
How are you defining the hotelsyou were choosing in those?
Early days and did that sort ofbecome a blueprint for?
Kind of what you look for in aSmith hotel.

James Lohan (07:38):
Yeah, so we were the first people I think
recognize as a couple.
Sometimes we wanted to go awayfor an all singing, all dancing,
really glamorous sort ofweekend away in Paris, let's say
, and sometimes we had a littlecountry pub in the middle of
Wales or Lake District orwhatever it wanted, and I think
we were the first people to kindof build what we called a
collection.
We took a nod from our fashionfriends that we wanted to build
a collection of properties thatwere all incredibly unique.

(08:01):
You know, we have this sayingof specializing in special and
it doesn't matter for me I don'tcare how many stars, diamonds,
how many plates they got hangingon the wall, whether they were
the AA, preferably not.
You know, I just wasn'tinterested in the way that
people were judging hotels,because you can win stars, as
you know, for things that don'tactually necessarily enhance
your experience.
So we decided that we could putsomething like Le Manoir Cat

(08:24):
Saison next to the Belle andSken Frith, and they were both
completely worthy of its placein our collection.
We defined it as boutiquerather than luxury, because we
wanted to sort of say that yes,we have restaurants with rooms
and yes, we do have classicfive-star luxury hotels as well,
but all of them have somethingmagical and special about them
and I can't necessarily tell youin words what each one is, but

(08:45):
every single one will be judgedby the experience rather than
the facilities.
Let's say so.
We were at that beginning of asort of design revolution in our
home.
So, you know, our homes arestarting to look better than the
hotels.
To be honest with you, you know, I remember when Babington
House first came out, everyone'smind was absolutely blown and

(09:09):
it was the first time, I think,where hotels started thinking
about chucking out all theirchintzy old sort of decor and
trying to be more up to date,like Conran or Ikea or Heels or
whatever we were furnishing ourhomes with.
A mix of that trend wasstarting to go into hotels, and
it was only very, very new whenwe started 21, 22 years ago.
Back in those days it was veryformal, it was very Michelin,
you know, everything was quitechintzy, everything was service,

(09:29):
was overbearing, I would say.
You know, sometimes peoplewould try and dress me for
dinner and make me wear a tie.
You know, I only wear a tie ata funeral, and so the whole
thing was at odds.
I think to what this newaudience of boutique and luxury
hotel seekers were looking for,and we were just at the
beginning of that wave, startingto sort of build a thing.

Tom Marchant (09:47):
I just see so much of that.
I think you inspired so manypeople.
I think there was a similarparallel with when we started
black tomato, because I think wehad this view that so many
places or destinations, you knowthings, were talked about in a
very kind of perfunctory, binaryway it would say like this is
what you can do, or this is whatwe have, or the language that
you describe.
it would be very uninspiring andit wasn't how we would talk

(10:08):
about places.
And it seemed that there wasthis, you know, maybe archaic or
entrenched approach like that'show you talk about travel, or
this is how you set up a hoteland feeding into this thing
we're looking, which is about.
no one really talked about howthese places make you feel and,
to your point, earlier like youcan have Le Manoir next to an
independent pub, but they'reboth going to be giving you

(10:30):
these amazing feelings which canstill feel equally magical but,
the way things are beingdefined wouldn't allow for you
to kind of recognise that?

James Lohan (10:37):
and also a lot of these places were so small you
didn't even know about them.
Them, I mean, when we wentaround the country to curate the
first collection, the idea waswe'd have 52, one for every
weekend of the year.
We only found 41.
And I was completelycrestfallen.
Oh my God, my whole concept'sbroken.
But actually best thing we everdid, we got 41, because that's
how many are good enough andthat was it.
When you start to find thingslike I remember going around

(10:59):
going, you'd find something likethe Trezanton down in Cornwall,
which was one of the originalboutique hotels before Babington
House, and even today it's abeautiful hotel.
And when you find those hiddengems or the witchery up in
Edinburgh, you know it was anextraordinary place at the foot
of the castle.
Or you know there was thisfabulous place called the
Drunken Duck Inn, which was inthe Lake District.
You know, no one knew aboutthese places and no one had ever

(11:21):
put them all together in onecollection.
That's for sure.
And I think that's what made usdifferent.
And you know we were the firstpeople to start saying things
like here's a dress code, likethis is what you should wear for
your evening.
You know, dress sassy.
So because it's it's this kindof vibe and or this one's a bit
more dress up or whatever, or wewould talk about the best rooms
to book.
So we actually looked at everysingle room which made people go

(11:43):
.

Tom Marchant (11:43):
They really have been there and answering the
questions that so many peoplehave.
Yeah, but could know theanswers to what room number?

James Lohan (11:48):
yeah, yeah so.
So we really were thatinsider's guide and everyone
says that, but we really werethe people to start, that I
would say, and we were very youknow the cliche cash, rich time,
poor urbanite.
I don't want a massiveguidebook on it like, for, you
know, was like one of the go-toguys back in those days, but you
need a holiday to read thebloody thing, and so we wanted

(12:09):
it quick and wanted it fast, andthen we wanted to use what we
now know as to be tastemakers orinfluencers.
Back then there was no socialmedia.
You know we used to sendpostage stamps and send out
flyers and we used to fly likewe used to run nightclubs.
That's how we promoted us whenwe first started.
I did fly postering around theWest End with giant Do Not
Disturb signs with who are Mrand Mrs Smith written on them.

(12:30):
You know it was treated like anightclub promotion the way we
kind of created the hype aroundit.

Tom Marchant (12:35):
I think that's what's brilliant, though, as
well, isn't it?
Because that's you can see soclearly that you know your
influence and you want to sayhow you can bring things from
other industries into to freshenor shake up.

James Lohan (12:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
When we first went to all thepublishers to see if they
published the book and we gotturned down by all of them, we
then thought, ok, this is aproblem, because they were all
saying, no, it's an overcrowdedmarketplace, no one's going to
want this.
There's plenty of luxury guysout there, and they weren't
getting it.
You know, everything was luxury, this ultimate, that no one was

(13:10):
trying to do something with apersonality.
And so we thought you know theway that we designed it, where
we'd send couples away.
The first people to send couplesaway to do reviews in the old
days it was a, in my mind, uh,an elderly, grey-faced hotel
inspector on a monday nightchewing on his prawn cocktail
you know, judging how many starsthis place should get, whereas
I'm going away with this hotgirl at the weekend, getting up
to lots of fun and having areally great time, and I want to
write a review about that, notwhat he's doing on a Monday.
And so when we sent away people, we had a really interesting

(13:31):
bunch.
We'd have restauranteurs, djs,nightclub owners.
One nightclub owner went awaywith his wife and his girlfriend
to a little place called theLugger in Cornwall.
That was a review that I won'tforget in a hurry.

Tom Marchant (13:48):
I mean, mean, it was just more fun.
It was more hedonistic, it wasmore, it was just more
interesting and it was more kindof almost like reality, and I
think that's what you guys did,and do so brilliantly, because
doing that because also that'sthe kind of reviews that people
want to see, but by also pullingthat eclectic, aspirational,
desirable group of people intothat world, it also just started
reflecting on the brand andwhat you stood for.
So people saying, yeah, not onlyare you interested in these
places, but people they'resending because I think you know
, I remember that so well.
You know these collections ofinteresting people who being

(14:11):
arbiters of taste in their ownworld exactly you'd say actually
I'm interested to get theirtake on it.

James Lohan (14:16):
And so with that mix, and also then the language,
and so much of that languagegoes to this feeling, and
actually, and was wasarticulating so beautifully,
yeah, yeah, how these placeswould make you feel well
language is so important because, particularly in today's world,
because you know, we had thebooks where we could be
completely unique, whereas nowwebsites look quite similar, you
know, because of the way theyhave to be designed.
So, really, the only ownershipyou can have is your voice, your

(14:39):
imagery, your video, and soit's really important for me
that the voice has a point ofview.
So, you know, I want it to beinspiring, but I also want it to
be editorially interesting andfun, and that's why we have a
slightly irreverent tone,because I think connecting
people with a bit of humor is agood thing, and I think that's
part of what makes and makesmakes the review interesting.

Tom Marchant (14:59):
I wanted it to be a page turner, not a kind of you
know something, you prop yourdoor open with it wanted to be
something that you reallyenjoyed reading as well, as well
as being useful, you know andthat's has been always, will be
so clear with Mr and Mrs Smithgoing back to like you know you
love hotels and that do youapproach, say trips, maybe look
at like then now, or however,would you be saying, well, I

(15:22):
want to go and feel like this,so that's sort of.

James Lohan (15:25):
I think the feeling is super important and I think
there's no question, whetherit's a romantic trip or a family
trip or a business trip, youwant to have a different feeling
, a different outcome, and thatrequires a different state, a
different mindset.
And yeah, for sure, I think,every single trip that we plan,
I'm thinking how do I want tofeel on that trip?

(15:46):
I definitely have that.
I think it's probably moresubconsciously rather than
consciously going.
I want to feel romantic, but Iknow that if I am planning that,
okay, so what are we going todo to make that work?
Well, we've got to pick theright hotel on the right
destination, of course, and thenit's all the other thoughts
that go within that.
So, yeah, I definitely we doplan through emotions, I think
for sure.

Tom Marchant (16:05):
I think that's that's true, and we've always
found that it's almost, like yousay, so often the subconscious,
but sometimes it's justconnecting the dots and making
people realise that thosesubconscious thoughts can
actually parlay into somethingthat you can actually book on
that For sure.
You've spoken I mean we talked alittle bit at the start in
interviews you've talked aboutthe sensory emotions tied to the

(16:26):
idea of home right.
In interviews you've talkedabout like this sort of the
sensory emotions tied to theidea of home right and the
familial.
Is that something that when youtravel or when you're looking
at hotels, you're looking toreplicate people to feel the way
?
Or are you looking to find thejuxtaposition between?
Like no, if you're going to goand do something, it needs to
feel very different, or?

James Lohan (16:41):
yeah it's.
It's a difficult one becauseyou know home is kind of your
anchor is.
It's the place you go back to,you love it, you're familiar
with it, everything's effortless, everything is.
But when we travel there's ashock.
You're culturally shocked,hopefully.
Your emotions are heightenedbecause you don't really know
what to expect.
You may have read a bit aboutit and whatever, but until
you're there you can't reallyget that feeling.

(17:03):
I definitely, when I'm goingaway, want it to be better than
my home.
So I want to be surprised and Iwant you know that whole kind
of cliche, surprise and delightkind of thing I do want that.
I want something that's gonnastir my emotions, is going to
inspire me, is going to get me,you know, get me thinking
differently.

(17:23):
I think is what I'm looking forfrom hotels.
You know, one of the big trendsis, you know, people are going
away and learning skills newskills, whether that's cookery,
yoga, whatever it might be.
I think there's something abouthotels facilitating new ideas,
new inspiration for you, and Ireally get that from a lot of
our hoteliers because most ofthem are independents.
They've all been conjured up bysome, you know, crazy personal

(17:45):
couple and I love that becausethey're thinking outside the box
, as do all entrepreneurs andhotels.
Can you know they can.
They keep surprising me andthat's what I love about it.
Like just when I think I've seeneverything and I've been to a
few, I'm like, oh my god, thatthat was, that was something
special.
Oh my god, that's clever, youclever bugger.
That's really cool.

Tom Marchant (18:05):
I like that and I think also just the influence of
mr mr smith and the boutiquethat's clearly had a big
influence on the offerings thathotel owners have been putting
out there yeah, people have beenconcepting, because you're kind
of almost like you made amarket in a way, yeah, or
clarified a mark, I think we'vehelped it for sure.

James Lohan (18:21):
So you know, we all have our company purposes now,
as I'm sure you do, as well, tomI'll test you on yours in a
minute.
So ours is shaping the future oftraveling together is what we
try to think about.
So what does that look like andhow can we influence that?
And there's no question, when Ilook back, that we, I think,
have influenced the style inhotels not us personally, but by
representing the hotels that wecurate is informing other

(18:44):
hoteliers and wannabe hoteliersof how things could or should
look.
You know, there is a languagethere and I think that we've
helped with that, and I thinkwe've also helped with
explaining the type of servicepeople want and the kind of
experience they want and whatreally matters in a hotel.
And you know what reallymatters is.
You know the comfort of the bed.
You know the quality of thesheets, the products in the

(19:04):
bathroom.
How cool is the minib?
The sheets, the products in thebathroom, how cool is the mini
bar?
Can the barman mix me a bloodygood martini?
These are important things.
I don't go around checking fordirt with white gloves.
I assume that's already done.
I'm looking at what's going onhere.
And what are you going to dowith my special free time?
To make something reallymemorable?
And you know, kodak nailed it.
It's all about memories, it'sall about making those memories.

(19:25):
But I think it goes deeper thanthat now and I think we're
starting to become moredemanding of these hotels,
because there was a time when,frankly, style won over
substance and people would justput up some Osborne little
wallpaper, bung a bowl of appleson the reception desk and call
them a boutique hotel.
And it needs to be way morethan that Now.
Style is almost like a tick boxIf you're not stylish, you're

(19:47):
not even in the game.
So what are you going to do nowand where are you going to take
me and what are you going tooffer me and how are you going
to enlighten?

Tom Marchant (19:53):
me.

James Lohan (19:54):
And I think that's what we're looking for now.

Tom Marchant (19:56):
I think that's great.

James Lohan (20:04):
Yeah, client expectations just keep
increasing and elevates thewhole industry, which is what I
like about it.
Anything that is at theforefront should lift everything
, and I think that's reallyimportant because you know our
time off is too important tomess up is the way I look at it.

Tom Marchant (20:18):
That's the thing Like you never want to be coming
back for a break with regret.

James Lohan (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because yeah we'd see that.

Tom Marchant (20:23):
Yeah, people come back and yeah well, we saw
that's one of the reasons youstart the business, you come
back and then you're staringdown the barrel of six months
worth of work again.
Yeah, I just didn't get the mostout of that and looking at sort
of your and smith's journey soas you came out the uk and just
looking at going further afieldand when you started expanding
into, you know other countriesand looking at that, what was
the kind of driver for whereyou're looking for properties

(20:44):
and what was important in thoseplaces?
In terms of you know whatthey'd be giving were the
differences between differentcountries and kind of the
emotional hit that would deliverfor people.
How did that kind of expansioninto other places?

James Lohan (20:55):
I think what's really interesting is there's no
question there is a movement ofboutique hotels globally, and I
like to think that someone innew york will look at our
curation in new york and go,okay, yeah, they've got all my
favorites, they've got the righthotels.
Therefore, they must knowwhat's going to be good in
anywhere else in the in theworld, you know.
So I think there is a languagegoing back to that, of starts

(21:16):
with, curation is the mostimportant thing, and then, of
course, it's how does thatcuration fit into their locales?
So I'm looking for hotels thatare embedded in their locations
and their local communities, whoare really making a difference,
who are not just stuck there,they are integrated, they're
part of the fabric of it.
You know, I mean, some of thehotels that we work with are

(21:37):
running the local schools, orthey're lobbying governments or
for sustainability measures orwhatever it might be.
There is really much more thanjust to stay in so many places,
I would say.

Tom Marchant (21:46):
Interesting on that, James, you said what they
need to think about.
Now I mean that definitely issomething we've seen a lot.
It feels that there is agreater awareness or
understanding from hoteliersthat they need to think beyond
sort of four walls in terms ofwhat they're giving.
And I think also that's becauseconsumer expectations change
from saying look, sometimes it'snice to go to a hotel and never
leave, of course, but thesaying look, sometimes it's nice

(22:08):
to go to St Hilton and neverleave, of course, but the
curiosity that people have islike they want to go to a place
that you said has a sense oflocale and feel those
connections.
Yeah, yeah, you must have seenthat and that keeps you cruising
.

James Lohan (22:13):
Yeah, so many times and so many places that have
been surprising over the years.
I always remember and it's onethat I'm sure that your
listeners will have heard ofbeen or not is um seneva fushi
in the maldives.
So incredible hotel, veryexpensive, please save up, it
takes a while, but it isactually genuinely worth it.
It's one of those ones where Iremember getting there and I was

(22:35):
on a curation trip and you knowthey're always curation trips
slash mini holiday, if I canjust sneak in a day off or two,
but you're always going to be,you know, touring the, the
hotels and taking notes.
You know that never stops.
And I remember them saying tome um, on day two they go would
you like to come and see ourrecycling center?
I'm like no, I'm all right.
Thanks, um, I don't really needto see where you put your
rubbish and stuff, you know,because it was back in the day

(22:56):
where we weren't really thinkingabout sustainability in the way
we are now.
This was 15 years ago orwhatever it was, I can't
remember and they said we'dreally like to show you.
So I was like God, it's hot.
Okay, so you're going to trollme around your recycling centre
around the back of the island,anyway, got there, met their
employed engineer.
They'd employed someonespecific to think about.
They had this lovely saying ofturning waste into wealth.
Because if you can turn yourwaste into wealth, then maybe

(23:19):
people won't just burn theplastic on the islands and
they'll actually start to dothings with it.
So do things with it, okay.
So let's think about everysingle element of our stay and
what can we do with it.
And so I'm like, okay, I'mlistening, this sounds
interesting.
So we had this little sort ofwelcome speech and he said,
right, let me show you this.
So the first thing I'm going toshow you is that all the
charcoal, for example, that weuh use on the barbecues that we
cook all the guests food onevery night is all coppiced

(23:42):
trees that we make in ourcharcoal maker over there.
Great, great are nice.
And then we actually use allthe dregs from all the candles
that light the whole island atnight.
We pour them into the end bits,the nasty bits, into the egg
cartons and we put a little wickin them and we make them to
become firelighters.
So they're the firelightersthat light the charcoal.
We then the polystyrene that wecan't get away from right now

(24:03):
that the fish is delivered everyday.
We can't get rid of it.
So what we do is we put it intothe new villa builds and we put
it as part of the fabric of thewalls for the insulation.
And then all the bottles yes,all the coca-cola bottles and
every other bottle we're using.
What do we do with those?
Well, we've got this machinewhere we chip it into small
balls and we put that into ourcement mix, and that's the
foundations that we build thevillas on.

(24:24):
Every single single bit wasthought from like, wow, this is
mind blowing, like it was nextlevel.
And then, the last time I went,they'd even built a glass
blowing studio where they'remelting down all the wine
bottles and the Bombay SapphireBlue bottles.
And this studio has an artistin residence that they fly in
from whichever country, who's anamazing glass you know sculptor

(24:47):
, and he makes glass sculpturesout of all their glass and then
they sell it to the guests whotake it all off the island.
I mean, you can't get a betterrecycling than that.

Tom Marchant (24:55):
It's genius it's also genius.
But a like it's just genius.
Be like that, being a kind ofyeah, because they're one of the
ogs of this, yes, like so howthey've shaped and how you're
starting to see so many hotelsthat previously would nod to it
but didn't take so much timedoing it.
But I think what's reallyinteresting as well is that
thankfully, it's increasinglylike it matters to the client.
So it's almost like it's not afeeling to feel like you're

(25:17):
guilt free, but it's a feelingto think like actually I'm
having a damage and it almostmoves from not just being
similar into regenerative, soyou're helping and that we're
seeing that so often come up nowsaying it's where travel,
whether it's in hotels, but alsopeople going into certain
communities and havingexperiences provided by people
in those communities and I don'tjust mean go, but real ones

(25:38):
exactly, do something, that evenyeah if it wasn't from them.
It's just a great experienceright, yeah, yeah and but but
you know then that your dollarsare going back into that, and
it's like travel should be aforce of good, and that's what
we're saying.

James Lohan (25:49):
It's saying, look, we can't get away from jet fuel
at the moment.
I hope we do one day, you knowand they are making good
progress on that, as we know butactually getting into these
communities.
So fly less and stay longer.
That's the message we're tryingto give.
You know, don't just go to theobvious places, go deeper, go Go
into the parts of the landwhere the communities actually
really need you.
They want you to visit.

(26:10):
It's really helpful for theirlifeline, and I think if people
can think like that and thehotels can adopt the sort of
Soneva Fushi approach to turningwaste into wealth, and the
airlines can hopefully start towork their magic with some sort
of jet fuel that isn't going topollute the world as much as it
is now, then it's a positivething as well.

(26:31):
It really is.
So I don't want people to stoptraveling because of that, but I
do think we all need to be moremindful and thoughtful about
how we travel and where wetravel too.
So don't go and stay in hotelsthat are having air conditioning
on their beaches like stop itno yeah, 100.
So think about where you'regoing spend your money, where
it's going to make the mostdifference.

Tom Marchant (26:46):
And it's never been easier to actually
understand and find out.
Yeah, we have a wholecollection.

James Lohan (26:51):
now you can search by the most sustainable hotels
in our collection.
There's no excuse now not tosupport those.

Tom Marchant (26:56):
if that's what you feel you want to do, I totally
agree, talking about places andcommunities and all that places
having an impact.
So there's a hotel, but alsojust the place itself.
You've got a longstanding kindof emotional connection to Ibiza
.

James Lohan (27:13):
Yes, well, I met my wife there.
Is that where you met Samara?
Yes, that's where we met Samara.

Tom Marchant (27:17):
yes, yes, so what is it say about Ibiza, but also
generally about a destination?
Do you think that can kind ofwhat needs to happen for it to
evoke?
Yeah, it's really interesting.

James Lohan (27:26):
I mean, abitha is a special one for us because tam
actually lived there till shewas 12, so she was born in
palmer.
They didn't even have ahospital in those days in abitha
.
So her mum was an old hippieout there, had a clothes shop,
she was a designer and herfather ran one of the first
hotels so long, long time ago.
I can't even tell you what datethat would have been.
So when tam and I met by chance, but through a mutual friend, I

(27:47):
was DJing actually inManumissions Bar Bar M in San
Antonio there you go that's howold I am and this girl walked in
and I was like, wow, she's nice.
You know, it was kind of loveat first sight thing, I think
One of those moments.
And she had a note from anothermutual friend of ours going you
should meet James, you guyswill get on well.
So essentially we both wereseparate friends and we ended up

(28:08):
kind of eloping for the weekand hanging out and just kind of
meeting up with our friends andthe clubs and whatever, and
it's just there's somethingspecial about it, I mean.
So Ibiza then became a placewhere obviously I was running
nightclubs and bars and things,so music's, I think, at the core
of it.
For me, yeah, music's alwaysbeen really important to me
personally and it's very emotive, you know, it's very emotional,
and I can remember the record Iwas dancing with in pasha in

(28:30):
1997 when we were kind of, youknow, flirting across the dance
floor.
That's how powerful it was.
It was ultra nato, by the way,in case you're interested, uh,
free, and that was just.
I remember records in places,and I think abitha.
So many destinations havequestionable soundtracks, I
would say, whereas what I loveabout Ibiza, apart from you can

(28:51):
be in so many different places.
Within like a half an hourdrive, you could be in a
world-class restaurant, or youcould be in a fisherman's
restaurant.
You could be, you know, goingoff to Formentera to have, you
know, lobster and chips withyour feet in the sand, or you
could be in Pascha or Pikes.
Probably now, as I'm a bitolder, there's this whole thing
where do you want?
A hidden cove and no one'sthere?

(29:12):
Or do you want to go and have areally fun, glamorous night out
and see some cabaret?
Whatever it might be?
There's an energy there and Ithink there's also those
mythical ley lines apparentlythat run through the island, a
bit like Glastonbury, maybethrough the island a bit like
Glastonbury.
Maybe I'm an old hippie as wellat heart.

Tom Marchant (29:31):
Maybe there's something about that, but I do
think music ties it all in a bitfor me for some reason.
I think music, I think it'ssuch a good point about music.
Sometimes it's almost likepeople look back at things and
think that was a greatexperience.
It felt brilliant.
The natural things you talkabout or say, the old school and
actually go.

James Lohan (29:43):
It's more the intangibles that actually create
these moments, these things,and actually music is such it's
so important, like lighting isso important, like when you walk
down the high street, like whyis that restaurant busy and that
one isn't?
They serve the same food.
Let's say it's usually thelighting, it's the sound, it's
the host, it's the intangible,it's the bits you can't
necessarily manufacture.

Tom Marchant (30:04):
I was talking about it with someone else.
There's a place set up insouthern Spain up on the
mountainside, and it was in thisold sort of like.
I think it was like an olivegrove and it had these little
red lamps hanging from the treesand the DJ was playing just
loads of the doors and it wasjust this combination of things
but lighting and music that hadsuch a strong.

James Lohan (30:24):
So powerful it's the senses, isn't it?

Tom Marchant (30:28):
it's what awakens your emotions and everything
you're talking about and luckilyfor us, companies like yours
and I think I said I'm like minerecognize that it's these
things are important when you'reconsidering what to do so often
people come across these thingsalmost like an afterthought oh,
that was good because of that,and yeah I'm not saying
therefore you have to kind ofring a head and go, what are you
playing?

James Lohan (30:42):
but you can get a feel for these things, if you
know like, say destiny's like abeef the way you say.

Tom Marchant (30:45):
You've got the breadth, but you know there's a
either philosophy or a generalyeah attitude towards that.
Yeah, that's what kind of pullspeople to it really is it
really?

James Lohan (30:54):
it makes such a difference to me like I can't
tell you how many greatrestaurants I've been to where
the soundtrack has been somedreadful pop thing that would,
just, you know, stick in my headwhen I wake up in the middle of
the night.
I'm not elitist about music atall.
I just like good music and Ilike a variety of music and I
like music to be experimentaland I like it to contribute to
the vibe of a place, and I thinkyou can get it really really

(31:17):
right.
And the only place in the worldthat I've been to that I can
think of off the top of my headconsistently, that delivers that
, I would say, is Ibiza.
I mean, there are other placeslike Tulum's very big now, and
Miami's obviously got its ownscene, and there's lots of other
scenes and places, but there'ssomething magical about Ibiza,
where you go, what should we dotoday?
All right, but here's the menu,yeah, and so many places.
You're stuck in one area, likeif you're in Mallorca, which I

(31:39):
love as well, you tend to hangbe in that area.
Ibiza's a bit like okay, shouldwe go to the north?
Should we go to the south?
Where are we going to go.
What are we going to do?

Tom Marchant (31:48):
and I like that I like that variety and you know
you'll find yeah right level ofenergy yeah, yeah, for what you
want at that moment, yeah thething about, I think the
lighting thing I could talkabout for ages because I love
dive bars in New York for allthe things that come with it,
like you know, the characters.

James Lohan (32:01):
Yeah, they've got great jukeboxes.
Yeah, yeah, it's the lightingas well.

Tom Marchant (32:05):
I love an English pub, but there's something about
the low lighting maybe it's theanonymity it brings or the
cosiness, and it might be on acold day in New York, or even in
a warm summer's night.
It just feels and I think it'sreally simple.
I'm not saying it's easy to do,but it's not clear to everybody
.

James Lohan (32:20):
I genuinely my poor kids, are always like, oh god,
dad's going to ask me to turnthe lighting down or the music
up or whatever.
Or because I do, I'm in placesgoing.
Do you mind just dimming thisdown a bit?
You know, and I was alwaystaught, when you're a
restaurateur, you know youspotlight the table, not the
people.
Yeah, and it's things like thatthat people don't know so many
hotels.
This is why design is soimportant with hotels.

(32:41):
They don't understand it.
I think often they arearchitecturally led rather than
mood led, and I think it'sprobably my events background
and understanding how to createthat and creating parties and
things is about creating vibe,and if you don't understand that
, then your hotel won't have itand therefore it won't be a
great hotel.
So no one's going to come backgoing oh, the vibe was really

(33:02):
good.
There's something there, though, that you can't quite put your
word.
Like Blake's Hotel.
That's probably one of theoriginal boutique hotels that is
rock and roll.
It used to be like you justcourse through its veins.
You walk in there, you're goingto feel incredible straight
away.
You know it's where Jerry Halland Mick Jagger were hanging out
back in the 80s or whatever itwas and it had a sexiness to it.

Tom Marchant (33:22):
You could almost feel it thick in the air like,
wow, I'm in something reallyspecial here, and that is
something that only greathoteliers really understand how
to create it's so true I wasgoing to talk about yeah, I
think you've answered thequestion when was about like,
what is it about a hotelbuilding's location that can
leave that emotional heft?

James Lohan (33:41):
on you, like you just said and so much is that
programming.

Tom Marchant (33:43):
It's paying attention to those details that
some hoteliers think about, likewhat music's going to be
playing as an afterthought?
Or say to someone in theirmarketing team put a playlist
together, yeah, and that canjust rip out the soul of what a
candlelit turndown is the bestturndown you can have.

James Lohan (33:58):
That's it.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't want rose petals all inmy bath, getting them in game
crevices, I just want a lovelycandlelit turndown and that is a
beautiful way to come backafter a nice meal or something,
and so those are the emotionsthat will be evoked.
If you understand, sound, light, smells, all these things as
well, smells are reallyimportant as well.

Tom Marchant (34:15):
Smells is massive it's quite funny there because
one question I was going to askwhy emotions just feel more
heightened when you travel.
I suppose day to day and, onthe smell side, the reason I
make the point is a hotel I love, borg of Nazio down in Bruglia
many times it had this reallydistinctive scent and I remember
going there the first time andit was just like vanilla essence
and it was just so beautifullydone.
That worked really well and Ithink I went back it was a year

(34:37):
or two ago and they've changedthe scent and it's still great,
but I was a bit of a fool.
I was like but I remember,though, they'd sell these diffus
.
It just wasn't quite the same,because you're in a sort of
location, and so it's not acritique on them but it's more
like there's a differencebetween the day-to-day and when
you're away.
These things have a it's like abigger impact on your sense,

(34:58):
because you're almost openingyourself up to it.

James Lohan (34:59):
You know, when you go into a good spa there's a
smell, isn't there Like wow,that's the first thing that hits
you, I think.

Tom Marchant (35:12):
And then it's the is almost.
I don't think this is importantin music and lighting, but it
would definitely come in numberthree for me.
I just don't think enoughcompanies whether you're selling
travel or whatever put enoughon those things?

James Lohan (35:17):
No, they don't think about those things enough.
No, no, I agree.
And then you want thesurprising stuff, like the wow
things, the things you didn'texpect to come to you.
If you can do that, then you'rebuilding a concoction that is,
you know, something worthy ofwhat we'd be looking for, for
sure do you remember any tripsyou've taken where obviously

(35:38):
your, your work is in travel?

Tom Marchant (35:39):
but you know, I think, as you've talked about
and I've seen, it's like ittends to blend because it's such
a great place to be in, yourtrips taken or things like,
where you it seems to have, like, really influenced either life
choices or work, you know thatstands out where you've been
somewhere.
Yeah, it's interesting.

James Lohan (35:56):
I mean, one of the most important ones was actually
when we pivoted from being aguidebook into becoming a travel
agency ultimately.
But that was intel from thehotelier going so how's it going
with the book sales?
We were like, yeah, it's goingwell, we're selling lots of
books.
But we didn't have any way ofreally understanding how much
business we were bringing to thehotels in those days

(36:36):
no-transcript camp or a massage,whatever it might be.
And we heard all these storiesabout people giving cards to
other people that hadn't bookedthrough.
Mr, mr smith, in the bars.
You know they were going where.
Where did you book through?
Use my card, you'll get abottle of champagne.
Take it up to the bar, anyway.
So all this thing was happening.
There was this sort of buzzgoing on with it.

(36:58):
And then the hotels.
I remember we were at thislittle hotel in Brighton called
Blanche House and the owner wasquite hard-ass at the first time
.
We tried to get them on boardbecause we'd never published a
book before and we didn't knowif it was going to work.
The next time we visited he waslike, oh, come in.
You know, it's so lovely to seeyou.
How's it all going?
I was like you've changed yourtune.
This is looking good for us.
And we were just there, I think, on a uh, just a weekend away,

(37:20):
and he said so um, do you haveany idea how well it's going?
Bookings, and we go well.
Anecdotally, we're here, we arestarting to deliver some
business for people, and so hesaid well, just so you know,
you're about 50% of my businessnow and this was six months in
and we were like whoa, and whenwe heard that that was the
moment we go, we've got to getinto the booking side of this,
because books are a long way upthe hill?
Yeah, exactly, and so that was apivotal moment that changed the

(37:43):
business, I would say.
But it was obviously Intel-led.
But I don't necessarily havespecific things, necessarily
have specific things, but I knowthat every time I'm away and
it's a thing that my team alwaysgo god james has been awake and
it means I'm going to come backwith ideas.

Tom Marchant (37:55):
I'm going to come back with new perspectives, new
thoughts, new strategies, newthat we need to, we need to
focus on this, you know so doyou sort of get excited when
you're going away because you,you know that yeah, maybe good
and bad, you're going to bechallenged and you're going to
fuel, yeah, I think yeah, it wasfunny.

James Lohan (38:09):
I had this period during the smith where I got
less excited because I seemed togo to all the hotels that were
on the cusp.
We weren't sure the curatorsgoing, we're not quite sure if
it's good enough, so I'd go toall the maybe hotels and then I
think, as I got a bit older, Iwas like this is wrong.
I should be going to all thelike wow hotels, like I need to
go and see these places anyway.
So I still get excited.

(38:29):
It takes more now, I would say,because I've seen too much.
I've been incredibly spoiledover the years, but when I do
like, I'm trying to think, um,like forestess.
I went to not that long ago anamazing hotel up in the
dolomites and I thought I'd seenevery restaurant you could
possibly see and they'd built apurpose-built restaurant where
every seat is a booth, like alittle a little booth.

(38:51):
It houses you.
So it's a really intimateexperience, just for you, and
the view is just the Dolomitesin front of you.
So it's like you're in atheatre for food and everyone
has the window view.
So there isn't anyone turningthe other way and I was like
that's clever Jesus, you'vebuilt a restaurant that I'd
never even dreamed of.
And then I'm excited, I'm likethat, that's really inspiring,
you know.
So when it happens like that,I'm like, wow, come on, I love

(39:14):
that I thought of that you.
You'll probably know it up in umin cram montana oh yeah there's
the old, converted ski stationyes, yes, I was there in the um
in the summer with my family andwe, we were staying at the new
success that we went up on theflight yeah and it was.

Tom Marchant (39:30):
It's just a remarkable place.

James Lohan (39:31):
I haven't been there in the winter or summer,
but just seeing A what they'vedone with the building but it's
location and, like the, I don'tknow the chutzpah.

Tom Marchant (39:38):
The people doing it say let's just do something.
I think, when you see kind ofinnovation yeah, yeah, and
that's, that's rarer.
I and thought, but when thathappens, wow, yeah, I get
excited for sure just a couplemore, james for your time um,
this might be an impossiblequestion because for a person as
traveled as you, um, and havingseen as many places, but if

(40:00):
you've got people coming to youand saying I need to go
somewhere, extraordinary, and itdoesn't have to be a
destination?
Are there places, obviouslyother parts of the world that
you just always remember having,yeah, good time or inspiration?

James Lohan (40:11):
so many good places , um, again more recently.
Uh, let me have a think aboutwhat I've been going to.
So pasalacqua, uh, late como,classic.
Do you know what?
As soon as you get to theirelectric gates and their big
grand iron beautiful gates andyou're coming around the back
kind of thing, so you don't getthe views to start with, and
they open nice and slowly, likeyou're just arriving, I'm like,

(40:33):
even on the gates, I'm like Ilove this place, like I don't
want to leave this place.
Already, just from a bit likewhen I was really old and we
used to have tapes, you had atechnics tape deck.
When you push the eject buttonand it opens slowly, it reminds
me of that and it's a sign ofquality.
There's something aboutelectric gates and I was like
these gates are freaking awesomeand we drove in.
I was like wow.

(40:53):
Then you get hit by this viewand I'm like I am actually gonna
hide here because I am notleaving.
It's bloody amazing.
And then you go into the wholewow house and you know it's.
It really is that likeincredibly glamorous wealthy
aunt has house on lake como.
Please use it with all herstaff and have the most
wonderful stay.
You know, see you in a week.

(41:13):
It's bloody mind blowing and Ilove that, so I'm big into views
and stuff I do like viewsReveal as well.
Reveals I love as well.
Yeah, I love a reveal, sothat's really cool.
I talked a bit about Dolomites,we talked about foresters,
which I talk about often ownedby some good friends, now called
Ushua Casa, up in Bahia, andit's in this magical little

(41:35):
village called Trancozo.
So you go to Rio, then fly upthere or wherever you might be,
and it's in the middle ofnowhere, there's no cars, it
just has something called thequadrado, which is this sort of
almost like a Brazilian homemadefootball pitch kind of
surrounded by pastel hue coloredbungalows, of which the hotel
is integrated within thatcommunity, and a little white

(41:57):
church at the end, and then itrolls down onto this most
gorgeous beach and I justremember turning up there first
time, going.
Oh my god, I love this place,and people talk about barefoot
luxury.
This is the one that nails ityeah yeah, it's owned by,
actually, the ex-creativedirector of Diesel, who was the
creative director for 25 years,and his partner, bob.

(42:17):
So Wilbert and Bob own it andhe's a freaking genius.
I mean the designs he's donethere you know you're staying in
tree houses and all sorts ofthings that he's got going on
there.
It's just really magical likewow, wow, look what you've done
and look how you've integratedas well into the local community
.
Going back to that, that'sspecial.

Tom Marchant (42:34):
I think that, yeah , those arts encapsulate so much
what you've been saying aboutthe fact that you can have a
variety of different placesthere, but all with an energy
and an approach that stillprojects or gives you, rather
like, an amazing feeling to takeaway, and that integration.

James Lohan (42:47):
Yeah, well, like the one I know we share this one
that we both like a deplor farmwe love.
It's in iceland, in the backend of iceland, not in the more
obvious parts of iceland, and Ijust remember having a tour
around this extraordinary housein sort of you know six deep
snow and there's a littleswimming pool with a swim up bar
.
I'm a sucker for a swim up baras well.
It's very 80s, but I love it andit's cocooned in sort of an icy

(43:10):
, snowy sort of surrounding andyou're drinking some crazy
cocktail sitting in this sort ofmagical swimming pool, thinking
how freaking lucky am I wowthis is my job.

Tom Marchant (43:21):
Come on yeah that's what it's about.
That's what it's about.
It's what we aspire to.

James Lohan (43:24):
It's pretty cool love it.

Tom Marchant (43:26):
And last one I mean we talk about this podcast
called the pursuit of feeling.
What does that mean to you?

James Lohan (43:31):
I mean, we've talked a lot about it but, like
you know, when you think aboutthat, Well, feelings, you know
everything is driven by feeling,but I think feelings for me now
are the sort of feelings that Iwant to get from my travel is
kind of hand in hand with time.
You know time, I know it'scliche, but it is the most
precious thing.
And that time well spent thing.

(43:52):
And that time well spent like Idon't do things now just
because like I would when I wasyounger, like yeah, I'll try it
like.
Now I'm more curated, I'm moreconsidered, because I'm 54 and a
half years old, tom and um.
You know, according to myinstagram feed, I'm 66 of the
way through my life.
Someone told me the other day,so I don't want to screw up my
precious time and whether that'swith um, my wife, my kids, us
as a family, or my friends whichI'm starting to do more stuff

(44:15):
with old friends as the kids geta bit older, now it's all about
spending this precious time inreally special places and the
feelings that I'm trying to getfrom that are one of, you know,
bonding, connecting camaraderie.
You know we're just trying tocreate things that when I really
am too old to travel and I'msitting in my rocking chair like
I do, you know, we're justtrying to create things that
when I really am too old totravel and I'm sitting in my
rocking chair like I do, youknow what.
I did everything I possiblywanted to do and I made the

(44:39):
absolute most of my precioustime, and that's what I'm trying
to do I love that.

Tom Marchant (44:43):
That's what I want to do as well, james.
That's been absolutelyfantastic.
Thank you um great pleasuremate it's always lovely to see
you so inspiring to hear fromyou and get your take on this
world and hear your journey andfollow your journey and I think,
as someone who is the godfatherof putting emotion into the
world of travel, we're in a veryacademic podcast today, so
thank you for your time.

James Lohan (45:02):
No, thank you, mate .
Thank you so much.
Brilliant Pleasure.

Owen Vince (45:06):
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