For our latest episode, we're joined by Jacqui Gifford – the intimidatingly well-travelled editor-in-chief of Travel + Leisure. She has lived, worked, and written about so much of the world, and that spirit of worldliness was reflected in our conversation. We spoke about chimpanzees, childhood, cosmopolitanism, and comfort zones – and much, much more. In Jacqui’s words, travel can make us hyper-aware of our surroundings. And it is precisely this intensified feeling of awareness that is what makes travel so alive – and so seriously captivating. We hope you enjoy listening.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Owen Vince (00:01):
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this new series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
In each episode, you'll alsoget a Rolodex of recommendations
from our guests on where to go,what to do and where to stay
(00:23):
all around the world.
Where to go, what to do andwhere to stay all around the
world.
Tom Marchant (00:26):
Today, we're honoured to share our
conversation with Jacqui Gifford, Editor-in-Chief of Travel
Leisure, the world's leadingtravel media brand.
Jacqui global upbringing, bornin Japan and raised in Saudi
Arabia, Qatar and Pennsylvania,instilled in her a deep
appreciation for diversecultures and experiences.
A Princeton graduate with adegree in English, she has
dedicated over two decades totravel and lifestyle journalism.
Since taking the helm at Traveland Leisure in 2018, Jacqui has
(00:49):
guided the publication to newheights, earning prestigious
accolades, including twoNational Magazine Awards and a
James Beard Award.
Under her leadership, themagazine continues to inspire
millions with its compellingstorytelling and stunning
photography.
In this episode, Jacqui sharesher insights on how travel
evokes powerful emotions andpersonal growth.
She also reveals some of herfavourite destinations and
(01:10):
offers an insight into hertravel philosophies and
preferences.
Join us as we delve into theemotional landscapes of travel
with one of the industry's mostinfluential voices.
Hi Jacqui, thank you so much forjoining us this morning on the
pursuit of feeling.
We want to dive straight inwith some questions about
emotion, feeling, travel and theworld.
Why do you think travel is suchan emotive experience, and
(01:33):
maybe you even disagree withthat?
Jacqui Gifford (01:35):
I don't disagree with that.
I think it's inherentlyemotional and emotional time for
an individual because it'staking you out of your comfort
zone.
We've been traveling forcenturies, thousands of years,
and as humans, I think we'reconditioned to crave stability,
to crave comfort, and when wetravel it takes us to literally
(01:59):
another place.
But also when you're outside ofthat comfort zone, it triggers
something in your brain, right,your senses are more alive.
I always feel that way when Igo to a new place.
I'm just more hyper aware of mysurroundings.
You're also feeling veryvulnerable when you travel.
Genetically we're conditionedto again crave stability, and
when you're outside of thatcomfort zone, you're sort of
like, wow, what's coming at me,what do I need to prepare for?
(02:21):
And you're also looking forpleasure.
So I naturally feel, or I feelthat naturally, it's an
emotional time because you'refeeling quite vulnerable.
Tom Marchant (02:36):
Yeah, in a way you kind of become like a newborn
baby, because very functionalthings like even, like you know,
using public transport or goingto a shop, suddenly are you
know outside of your norm.
You don't know how to.
You don't know the kind ofrules that dictate how people
live.
You can kind of intuit them alittle bit.
But you've had I mean well,what I know of you, you've had a
pretty international life.
You were born in Japan.
I was Right and you've moved allover, so you're kind of fully a
(02:58):
very kind of internationalperson.
Do you think that's made you, Isuppose, less susceptible to
that feeling of culture shockwhen you, when you go somewhere
else?
I think so.
Jacqui Gifford (03:06):
I think that, just because of how I was
growing up and my parents'mentality, ethos of they were
naturally always really curiousand love to explore and go to
different destinations so Ithink that I've always been more
of an extrovert.
It's in my personality and Ithink that, you know, there's
always the nature of nurture.
(03:26):
I'll never quite know if I, youknow, if I was living here in
the States my whole life, if Iwould have decided as an adult
to travel the world in the sameway maybe.
But here I am today as somebodywho has lived in multiple
countries now lived in New Yorkfor over 20 years.
I think that I am naturallycurious and I love to explore
(03:48):
and put myself in that positionof vulnerability because then I
think it allows for growth andthen in turn you become a
stronger person because of it,because you do get to interact
with other cultures, with otherpeople, meet them where they are
, and I always feel that when Icome back from a trip I've grown
in some way.
It could be a really small trip.
It doesn't have to be somethinggrand, it could be even going
(04:10):
here within the US.
I think we sort of dismiss theidea that a domestic trip is.
You know, it's an adventure too, right?
So I personally feel thattraveling always leads to growth
.
Tom Marchant (04:21):
Always, always, okay, talking about kind of
resilience and kind of, you know, growth.
When you travel, do you findthat there are particular places
where you're more likely tohave those?
Transformative is quite aweighted word in a way, but kind
of to have those kind ofrealizations, or are they more
unexpected?
Jacqui Gifford (04:37):
I think that there are certain trips when you
I'm going to name one that Itook recently when we went to
Egypt you I'm going to name onethat I took recently when we
went to Egypt when you're sortof struck by the sweep of time
and sort of how small yourpresence is really in the world.
Some of the monuments and sortof the grand, you know, the
scale of the pyramids, some ofthe temples we saw, and you
(04:58):
realize that these buildingswere built thousands of years
ago.
I imagine people have the samefeeling when they go to Greece,
orce or italy or turkey.
You really do feel quite small.
So I feel that trips thatreally look back at history and
the historical those really giveyou a a sense of wonder I mean,
I suppose we're talking aboutthe pyramids, the valley of the
kings, these places.
Tom Marchant (05:17):
Is it quite difficult to?
This was your first time seeingthese things in the I have been
before, but not as an adult.
Jacqui Gifford (05:24):
I'd actually gone, believe it or not, when I
was a teenager, and I think thatI appreciated it much more on
this trip.
But anyway, go on.
Tom Marchant (05:31):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean I'm curious about
places that are, in a way,really overdetermined by the
image of them, right, Because, Iknow I mean you've written
about the Taj Mahal, for examplethis is somewhere you see in
photographs and in film hundredsof times potentially, before
you actually go, yeah, to theseplaces.
So when you finally experienceit, you're kind of having to
(05:52):
balance the experiential momentin your head with this image you
have that from I don't know atv series or a film or a book.
Does that?
Do you find you can kind offilter out those two?
I can, so I think it's funny.
Jacqui Gifford (06:03):
I've thought about this actually when we were
in Egypt this last time and wesaw the Sphinx, because a lot of
people say to me I've heardpeople say, oh, the Sphinx isn't
as impressive as I thought itwould be, and to me I think
people have built up that theSphinx is bigger in their minds
than it actually is.
Look, people are entitled totheir own opinions, but my
perspective on that particularsentiment is you're looking at
(06:25):
something that's still thousandsand thousands of years old.
The fact that it's stillstanding is impressive enough to
me, right?
So I think it's hard now, withsocial media and media in
general, people have alreadydecided in their minds what a
place is going to look likebefore they even get there.
I'm a glass half full kind of aperson, so I've always feel
that when I get to that place,there's a moment of appreciation
(06:49):
and respect for the fact thatit still exists first of all,
and then you have to sort ofabsorb the sheer amount of
people that might be there whichis a real challenge right now
in tourism and then understandsort of your place within the
framework.
Again, I'm glass half full, full.
I go in sort of understandingthat these places are incredible
and I feel like it always isbetter in person.
Tom Marchant (07:09):
Yeah I've had that feeling a lot when you, you
know you kind of, can have tocontend with the fact that you
go somewhere, there are peoplethere and it might be kind of
ordinary life flowing around it,and you're like, well, I'm also
a person that's come here right, you can't have it in a
pristine way.
You know it's kind of exists inthe world that's come here,
right, you can't have it in apristine way.
You know it's kind of exists inthe world.
That's what makes itinteresting.
I am curious, though are thereplaces where you've been, or, I
suppose, destinations orexperiences that you've had
(07:32):
where your expectation wascompletely I don't know the
expectation, you have reallyclashed with the actual
experience.
Jacqui Gifford (07:39):
You know it's funny.
I find that, again, because ofmy sort of just general
curiosity, I usually choose adestination and go in sort of
knowing enough about it to feellike it's going to be a positive
experience.
One place that I think thatreally challenged me overall was
Rwanda.
So I went last year with myfamily and I was so excited to
(08:02):
go and see the gorillas andthat's you know, the mountain
gorillas and go tracking them inVolcanoes National Park that's
you know.
Many people wait their wholelives to do it.
So I was so thrilled andhonored we could do it.
I think I was expecting that tobe incredible and it was, but I
wasn't expecting the other partsof the destination to be as
fulfilling as they wereemotionally, whether it was
(08:24):
Kigali, which is an incrediblyrich city, akagera National Park
I think I don't want to eversay I had low expectations,
because I didn't, but I wasunprepared for the sort of
diversity of experiences youcould have in one very small
country where tourism is,frankly, really nascent.
So you know, it's obviouslyit's been 30 years since the
(08:46):
genocide there and the fact thatthere's even tourism at all is
remarkable.
So I think my perception of itwas wildlife, sure, but I walked
out of the destination feelinglike this is a place that is
filled with a remarkablyresilient people.
Tom Marchant (09:03):
Yeah, I mean it's quite an incredible
transformation in a way, becausecertain I suppose certain
countries are in a way, theshadow of their past hangs over
them in a very big way.
I mean, Cambodia is the same ina lot of senses, right, so
you're kind of contending withthis history, which is there and
also trying to.
Like you said earlier, you'reultimately traveling for
pleasure.
You know new experiences andpleasure and there can be a
(09:27):
slight you know a little bit ofkind of cognitive dissonance
when you're in a place, butmaybe around us, somewhere where
that kind of is obviously verypositive, very, you know,
profound experience.
I mean so with the gorillas.
That experience itself was thisthing that you were mentally
focused on in the run-ups.
Jacqui Gifford (09:38):
I think I was mentally focused on it for a
couple of reasons.
One it can be quite physicallychallenging, so I was concerned
about making sure you know youhave the right gear.
You're out there.
I also should say we didchimpanzee trekking, which I
actually found much harder thangorilla trekking Chimpanzee
trekking was an experience thattotally floored me.
(10:00):
I've never been that physicallychallenged on a trip in my life.
It was five or six hours inYongwei forest.
Absolutely there's no, reallyno trails at some points where
you're just going up hills.
There, you know the trackersare cutting trees, branches,
(10:21):
clear a path for you to see thechimps, who are quite fast
moving right.
The gorillas are slower moving.
So I was challenged in a waythat you know you're seeing this
animal totally in the wild, ontheir terms and with a
traditional safari experience.
When you're in a vehicle,there's the comfort of the
vehicle.
When you're on foot, it's verydifferent.
So I found it to be reallyrewarding, rewarding and I think
(10:44):
this is something you couldacknowledge.
As a traveler.
I don't think I would choose togo chimpanzee trekking again oh
, really, and that's okay.
Tom Marchant (10:51):
Oh, just because of the physical, I think,
because I think there are someexperiences that you can say one
time is enough it's not that itwasn't rewarding.
Jacqui Gifford (11:00):
it's not that it wasn't rewarding, it's just
that I think that the physicalpart was hard, but also I I've
never come back from a trip oran experience at that day being
so emotionally and physicallydrained where.
I was like I'm in bed by seven30.
I can't physically move anymore.
Tom Marchant (11:22):
The ache sets in and also really sort of
physically.
Jacqui Gifford (11:26):
But also, you know, you're looking at this
group of chimps right andthey're just fascinating
creatures, and so I I think itreally sort of challenged my
thinking around them as well,and also in a good way, like
should I be here?
Tom Marchant (11:45):
and I'm glad I did it.
Yeah, was.
Jacqui Gifford (11:48):
I getting too close to them and obviously I
wasn't, because and the guideswere very, you know they're it's
all very controlled.
But you know, there's alwaysthat tension between travelers
and wildlife like, should Ireally be here and um, and I
definitely felt it on that tripat that particular moment, which
is why I can say I don't thinkI'd do it again like you were
almost trespassing on this alittle bit, a little bit also.
(12:12):
Again, it's a completely safeexperience, it's all.
It's just.
I understand why they they'revery controlled, but it's like I
I don't know if I would.
I just don't think I would doit again, okay maybe, maybe the
memory is too perfect you shouldperfect, you should do it, and
then you can tell me what youthink about it.
Tom Marchant (12:28):
I mean it's true.
I mean there's certain maybeyou know if you go, if you
repeatedly go to a place andmaybe that kind of sense of
culture shock that you talkedabout earlier begins to kind of
you know, wear away a little bit, becomes familiar, and it is
very nice being you know feelingat home somewhere on multiple
visits, but you do lose thatkind of reason of what am I
doing?
Jacqui Gifford (12:45):
How do I?
Tom Marchant (12:45):
how do I interact in this place, I think with
chimpanzees as well.
It's kind of strange becauseyou are looking for this signs
of humanity in a weird way.
Like you know, you are kind oftrying to see how, how familiar
they are to like to me, which isnot something you're doing when
you're you know the variouschimps somewhere.
Jacqui Gifford (13:12):
They're looking directly at you and you could
just almost tell like wow, okay,the level of consciousness and
the level of intelligence is sohigh.
And with the gorillas it's avery similar feeling.
And the gorillas for lack of abetter word they just seem a
little bit warmer and fuzzierthan the chimps.
(13:32):
So, um, although they'recertainly not, but it's just in
two very different experiences,I feel very fortunate to have
had two very differentexperiences on that same trip.
What's interesting is, I wouldsay I would do the gorilla
trekking again, but I I don'tknow if I would do the chimp
checking again the chimpanzeewas too intense, it was too
intense, it was too intense.
(13:54):
I also recognized too muchlooking at them.
That was, it was almost, it wastoo disconcerting.
Tom Marchant (14:01):
Interesting, disconcerting how.
Jacqui Gifford (14:02):
You could tell that they just I don't know if
they really wanted us there.
Tom Marchant (14:06):
I really so more territorial, but they weren't
threatening in any and again, itwas totally safe.
Jacqui Gifford (14:12):
I just don't there's.
There's an edge there.
Tom Marchant (14:15):
Okay, yeah, can I tell you something scary?
Jacqui Gifford (14:17):
And I swear my husband felt the same way he was
like hmm.
We've wandered into the wrongpart of town.
Tom Marchant (14:23):
Yeah, that's what you're thinking I'll tell you
something scary, which is Ibriefly did uh, studied primate
anthropology years and years agoand there was a you know, so I
know a little bit.
I think we had this, thislecture.
He was telling us about aparticular tribe of chimpanzees,
very specifically one who hadlearned to hunt with tools.
So they were sharpening spearsand hunting.
Jacqui Gifford (14:43):
So at that point , okay it's a planet of the apes
kind of it really is.
Tom Marchant (14:47):
It really is you came very close.
You know, I think yeah, 98.
We share 98% of our DNA withthem.
But it's 97% with the bananas,so I don't know what that says.
So these are, like, obviouslyvery extraordinary, very, you
know, like you said, things youprobably wouldn't do more than
(15:08):
once.
Yes, you kind of want to feel abit strange there.
By contrast, where do you feelmost at home?
Jacqui Gifford (15:15):
I feel obviously at home in my hometown of New
York City, which I think is.
I should always acknowledgethat when you live in a big city
like this, there are stillplenty of places to explore.
There are neighborhoods.
I've still yet to go torestaurants to try, so I often
still feel like I'm a touristhere.
I feel like I'm a tourist here.
I feel like I'm a tourist hereevery day, but I feel at home
(15:37):
here, just walking the streetsand absorbing right.
I feel at home in Japan, eventhough it's been 10 years since
I've been.
But I, since I was born thereleft, moved back, I went to
school there something about it,I think when you're born in a
place, again that sort of naturenurture I'm not Japanese, but I
I feel, when you're born in aplace, again that sort of nature
nurture.
(15:57):
I'm not Japanese, but I feel akinship there and just because I
lived there, I also spent a lotof time in the Middle East
growing up as a child.
So whenever I return I feel asense of comfort and just a
nostalgic.
I think when you spend asubstantive amount of time in a
place and you enjoy it, I thinkyou'll always have a funness for
it and will naturally feel acertain amount of you know
(16:17):
warmth.
I also feel that way aboutHawaii, though I haven't been
back in some time.
I used to vacation there all thetime with my family and we
would go every year, and that'swhy I think some people choose
to vacation in one spot all thetime.
I've sort of shifted away fromthat pattern and travel habit
just because of my work and whatI do now, where I sort of
(16:38):
naturally feel like I have tohave an understanding of what's
going on in multiple places.
But a lot of people choose totravel like that and that's
completely fine.
Tom Marchant (16:45):
I think it's fine.
Yeah, I've done that in thepast as well.
You know, Barcelona is a placeI've been to 10, 15 times.
Jacqui Gifford (16:51):
Yeah, so you're going to feel comfortable there.
Tom Marchant (16:53):
Yeah, it's kind of nice to know what I'm doing
slightly, even though my Spanishis terrible.
But you know, you kind ofmentioned work and I'm curious
about that.
Obviously, editing writing, doyou travel differently when
you're traveling on assignmentprofessionally to when you're
traveling for your own leisure?
Basically yes.
Jacqui Gifford (17:09):
I have to sort of switch my brain a little bit
when I'm when I'm traveling foran assignment, there's a you
know you're.
You're constantly taking notes,interviews, meeting people.
There's a certain level of likeon this I call it when you're
doing that.
I'm a curious person and I lovethat kind of travel, but then
there's also trips that have tobe completely restorative and
(17:32):
shut off.
So one place that my family andI love and I know we were
talking earlier about thecomfort and we love Ischia in
Italy.
It's an island off the coast byNaples and we have been now
twice for about eight days aweek and it's a very special
place.
There's healing waters, thermalwaters.
It's a really beautiful,beautiful island, and what I
(17:55):
love about it is that mostly themost travelers there are
Italian, and so it feels alittle bit like a throwback.
And when we go, we stay at thisbeautiful hotel called the
Regina Isabella, which was builtin the fifties by Angela
Rizzoli, but it has a timecapsule quality to it these old
Neapolitan tiles and breakfastin the morning with waiters, you
know, wearing full jackets, andit has this beautiful quality
(18:20):
to it where it just makes youwant to slow down.
So I go and I bring my booksand we walk into town at night
and my son loves it, my husbandloves it, my parents love it,
because it really feels like aplace where it's not that
there's nothing to do.
There's plenty to do, but we'rethere.
It's truly like that vacationmode, and so I'm not.
You know I'm not there with mybrain going 5 million miles an
(18:45):
hour, so you can.
Tom Marchant (18:46):
You can switch it off when you I can?
Jacqui Gifford (18:48):
I think it's.
I mean listen, I think thehardest part about switching off
now is social media.
If I can be honest, I like topost, so that is the hardest
part.
We were in Canada recently at agreat hotel I shouldn't even
say great, it's beyond greatCalled the Clioquot Wilderness
Lodge, which is on VancouverIsland, the Clioquot Sound, and
(19:15):
the only place we could getWi-Fi was in our room tented
cabin.
Which are these, like you know?
It's crazy.
There's only about 30 roomsthere, and when we were out on
the boat where we saw orcas inseattle, we we didn't get
service and that was great.
Yeah, look.
I think people today arefrazzled, they are stressed, and
we love the ability to connectwith friends and family from all
(19:35):
over the world at any givenmoment and know what's going on
with them.
Technology has given us theseincredible benefits.
It's not going away, but andthen this is a big but there's a
cost that comes with all of it,and I think that we're now at
this point as a society wherewe're starting to analyze what
those costs really are yeah, Ithink.
Tom Marchant (19:55):
I think there's a lot more self-awareness now,
maybe 20, 30 years into having,you know, social media, that
it's actually quite a long timeand it doesn't feel like it
should be that long that peopleare realizing it's a poison than
a cure as well.
You know, it does connect youto the world and you can see
interesting far-flung places andconnect with your friends who
live on the other side of theearth.
But also when you go to theother side of the earth, you
(20:18):
still get your phone in yourpocket.
Jacqui Gifford (20:19):
It's like how you go to a place like, for
example, egypt, when we werethere.
You're interacting with some ofthe most incredible historical
monuments of the world andyou're using your phone probably
to take a picture of a lot ofit.
Phone probably to take apicture of a lot of it, right?
I don't know why, you know, atthat exact moment you need to
message with x friend who is,you know, halfway across the
(20:41):
universe about, or halfwayacross the world about, what
they ate for lunch that day yeahthat I think that there's
there's some real sort of somemysteries, some, yeah, mysteries
.
You know there's some thingsthat we need to sort of get down
to a granular level, and itreally, to me, is about focus
right, and I think that peopletoday really struggle with focus
(21:04):
.
There was a great piece justrecently in the atlantic about
kids can't really focus and reada whole book.
Tom Marchant (21:12):
I read the same piece.
I think about college studentswho are unfamiliar with
finishing.
Jacqui Gifford (21:17):
So you know, listen, and that's one piece,
right?
So I'm not it's, but I rememberwhen and I'm a voracious reader
, and again, I'm hardwired adifferent way, but I remember
consuming volumes and volumes oftext.
In college, part of ourcoursework was to read these
books, and we were expected toread these books, and I did it.
Tom Marchant (21:38):
I did the assignment and I you know, and
listen.
Jacqui Gifford (21:42):
the world has shifted even since then, with
more people focusing on STEMversus the humanities, and
that's an interesting debatethat's going on right now.
But the argument is reallyabout focus.
Can we actually sit withourselves, be in a place and
focus on that for a certainamount of time?
And I think the answer is rightnow we're really struggling,
(22:04):
yeah there's an attendantpressure with that, I think when
you're somewhere because youthink, okay, I'm here to relax,
and then you kind of can't.
Tom Marchant (22:11):
you know, it's hard to suddenly switch into a
place which is everything is setup perfectly and you have a
drink and there's the sun and abeautiful view and a book, and
you think, okay, now I'm readyto relax.
And it's quite hard to switchyour brain off, I think in a way
.
I mean, maybe I don't know ifthe solution is going completely
smartphone-less Would you dothat?
Would you go?
Jacqui Gifford (22:27):
would you travel without taking a device I would
for taking a device for onetrip from start to finish, just
full paperless.
I mean.
Look, I think that a the thesurprising fact is.
Tom Marchant (22:39):
I've done it before.
This is true when I was youngwe all can acknowledge we've
probably.
Jacqui Gifford (22:44):
You know, there was a time when I didn't have
one there are.
There are generations of peoplethat you know maybe haven't
lived that experience, but I'm.
I'm old enough to say that Ihave taken trips without a
smartphone.
So I, you know, maybe haven'tlived that experience, but I'm
I'm old enough to say that Ihave taken trips without a
smartphone.
So, I you know and and had agreat time doing so.
Tom Marchant (22:59):
I think there's something as well, you know,
talking about text and aboutliterature and about reading,
because for me, reading bookswas, you know, an inspiring
experience that made me want totravel.
More than looking at photos, infact, more than music, anything
else, it was like reading, likelaurence darrell or someone
like that, and you know, wantingto travel to greece and to
egypt.
(23:19):
Of course you know, and it'slike I think you're losing
something by not absorbing thosetexts, I suppose, yeah I listen
, you're preaching to the choir.
Jacqui Gifford (23:27):
I'm a big reader , you know.
I keep a running tab and listof all the books that I've read
this year and I use those booksas inspiration for future
travels.
I also buy books when I'm on theground to try and better
understand a place.
You know I love that form oftravel and escapism.
I don't know if it's aswidespread as it used to be, you
(23:49):
know, and that's a sad reality.
But we should also acknowledgethat.
You know the way that mostpeople are consuming.
You know people are listeningto podcasts, they're consuming
video, and that's a form ofcontent that can be very
enriching when done well, andthat is another way to draw
people in and that seems to bethe more prevalent way now of
(24:11):
drawing younger travelers andconsumers in.
And that seems to be a moreprevalent, the more prevalent
way now of drawing youngertravelers and consumers in.
And then the other surprise ofit all is that, you know,
everybody sort of frets andworries about the younger
consumer and guess what Surprisethey get older and then their
habits change.
Tom Marchant (24:25):
It's not true.
We don't get older, it's fine.
So it's like I love it.
Jacqui Gifford (24:28):
It's like everyone's like you know freaks
out about.
You know millennials aren'tdrinking wine?
Well then, surprise they getolder and then they will
eventually drink wine orwhatever, or you know, there's
always some worry about what thenext generation will do, and
then they sort of they change.
Tom Marchant (24:45):
It's a perennial debate, and I think Aristotle
complained about people writingthings down because they lost
the art of like oratory andtalking Right.
So I think that's yeah, yeah,it's kind of an old debate.
It's an old debate yeah, Ithink there was one thing you
mentioned earlier I kind of wantto go back to you talked about
an island in italy um ischia andthe kind of word you I think
the word you didn't say that washanging over.
(25:06):
It was a sense of authenticity.
Jacqui Gifford (25:08):
I think yes, does it is?
Tom Marchant (25:10):
is the authentic authentic?
Does the authentic exist?
And what is it?
Do you think?
Because it is a word that is soeasy to invoke, but I think
what it actually means todifferent people can vary quite
a lot.
Jacqui Gifford (25:23):
I'm going to be somewhat controversial here and
say that authentic as it existsright now in travel.
Well, a, it's overused and B Idon't really know what it means
anymore.
Because the argument for sayingthat Ischia is authentic is
this?
A lot of Italians vacationthere.
It doesn't feel, you know,overrun with Americans, which
(25:47):
you know.
I'm American, so hey, but thereare some destinations, some
places, particularly withinItaly, where it feels like
you're as likely to hear anAmerican accent as an Italian
accent.
Right, I was just readingsomething about.
You know, when you go to Venice, florence, think about that,
right, that some of these placesfeel like they're more tourists
than locals.
Now, at the same time, is theIschia of 2024, the Ischia of
(26:13):
when you know the my BrilliantFriend Ischia?
No, it's not.
And is that a more authenticIschia?
Maybe the one from the past?
I think that the challengeswith the word authenticity is
that it sort of puts a label ona place and says that it's not
entitled or allowed to evolve.
Tom Marchant (26:32):
Yeah, it has to be kind of frozen in time, it has
to be frozen in time and I thinkthat that's not entitled or
allowed to evolve.
Yeah, it has to be kind offrozen in time, it has to be
frozen in time.
Jacqui Gifford (26:35):
And I think that that's the challenge.
Most people naturally want tosee something in what they feel
is a more real state and listen,I think actually the beauty of
living in a place like New Yorkis that New York has permission
to change.
People accept that New York ischanging all the time and
they're totally fine with it.
(26:56):
Some places don't have thatpermission.
Tom Marchant (27:00):
I suppose you would notice the change more
right, it would be much moreextravagant, it would be
exaggerated in a way.
Jacqui Gifford (27:06):
New York is a place of immigrants.
It's a place of strivers.
It's a place of people who comeand go.
They want to be a part of thecity and its life.
It's so different from mostcities really in the world and
it's allowed to change.
I think that that's really thestruggle, frankly, with a place
even like Venice.
(27:26):
Right, people are going therefor a very specific.
It's absolutely breathtakinglybeautiful yeah, yeah but, Venice
, I think, is in a realcrossroads moment because it
hasn't been allowed to change inin ways that allow for positive
um impact on some local youknow, local businesses, local
(27:46):
housing.
Tom Marchant (27:47):
It's a really interesting case study for that
sort of loaded word ofauthenticity and I mean I think
it's so unique in a way it's sounique, I mean it's sort of
really like venice, although mysolution is you should go in
winter it's I mean venice, andwinter is absolutely beautiful.
Jacqui Gifford (28:03):
I think that the idea of when you're going to
see more local life is a wayaround some of these challenges
yeah, there are certaindestinations in the world that I
really feel are at a crossroadsof having to figure out what
the path is forward when itcomes to building up that sort
of like sense of community andvibrancy.
(28:26):
That is actually what peopleare looking for right now.
Tom Marchant (28:29):
Yeah, they don't cause.
You don't want to encountersomeone like yourself in a way.
Right, you know to travelacross the world, I mean, you
know, to be on a street withpeople who could live on the
same street you actually live onback home can be quite jarring,
but maybe with somewhere likeVenice, yeah, the case is, what
do we want to be in the future?
What do we want our identity tobe?
There's a reason people go tothese places.
Jacqui Gifford (28:55):
Of course, because you guess almost now,
you know six, 700 years ago,when it was this maritime power.
Tom Marchant (29:04):
And that to me is fascinating and rich.
Jacqui Gifford (29:07):
And you know again, as we speak about, like,
the historical threat of certainplaces.
So, you know, is it absolutelyamazing?
Sure, and I would go theretomorrow if given the chance but
, I, think you're just you're asa, as someone again who's
curious and sort of just lookingat this from an editor's lens.
I'm always thinking about someof these questions.
And when someone goes, which isagain what we hear all the time.
(29:28):
People go to a place andthey're like oh, it was
overcrowded or I didn't have theexperience I thought I was
going to have.
Tom Marchant (29:34):
You have to sort of ask why One thing I want to
ask obviously, this podcast ismostly about feeling and emotion
and travel.
Has there been a kind of what'sthe biggest emotional shift
you've had when you've beentraveling?
Has there been a time when theshift has been, you know, so
(29:55):
exaggerated or so huge, soremarkable?
Is there a place?
Jacqui Gifford (29:58):
So I'll give you two examples.
One this was years ago.
My husband and I were on safariin Botswana.
Yeah, I love being in Africa,it's just, and seeing the
wildlife there, it's soenriching from an emotional
standpoint.
You again, you feel quite smallin the world and you're told
the animals see the vehicle asone thing.
(30:20):
I remember it to this day.
We were in and this is over 10years ago.
We were in the very back row ofthe vehicle and there was
another couple in front of usand another couple in front of
us and then the driver and wewere driving through a fairly
open field.
And we get to this point and wesee this group of lions and two
(30:42):
of the lions were sleeping andI think they were females, and
there was a male who was veryawake and we got closer and
approached the lion and helooked up.
And we got closer andapproached the lion and he
looked up and you could, it waslike he.
I swear he looked exact.
He looked right at us.
He was not.
He looked at my husband.
He was not looking at anybodyelse in the vehicle.
(31:06):
And and I and I went like thisand I literally grabbed his knee
and and it was like we knewthat he was looking at us and
the driver was like everything'sokay, don't worry, and he's
like I'm just going to startbacking up slowly, and then he
kept looking at us.
We then just sort of zoomedaway and the lion actually gave
(31:27):
chase and it was a play.
It was a play thing, like hewasn't.
But you know, it was one ofthose things where you were kind
of like, oh, like it it feltand I felt total fear, like that
was like my stomach justbasically dropped.
And then you know, aftersomething like that you sort of
get that like adrenaline rushand it was really um, and I felt
(31:49):
that a couple of times whenI've traveled where it was like,
you know, that total, like ah,and then you feel that high um,
cause you made it out of, out ofthe experience, so um, and then
I would say the sort of likelooking at like a sweep of a
trip, a long trip, like comingout of something and feeling uh,
(32:10):
restored or again reallyenriched.
You know, we've had lots offamily trips that I've felt.
When we went to Kenya with ourson, I felt that way.
Doing Rwanda, we felt that way.
There's so many sort of Egypt,I think just and again, because
it's more present in my mind, Ithink we felt coming out of that
(32:31):
trip really, and it was atiring trip because you're
seeing so many different things,but I mean, I knew it was going
to be a great trip, but I wentin feeling like curious, happy,
and then came out just feelingreally optimistic about humanity
.
Tom Marchant (32:47):
Had you expected that you would feel that way?
Jacqui Gifford (32:49):
No, no, and not that I like I, not that I
thought the trip wasn't gonna begreat, it was more that I just
I think I I felt more inspiredby the sort of intelligence and
creativity of what we as humanbeings can produce quite an
amazing thing to walk away froma trip right, rather than just
thinking oh, that was nice itwas nice, we had a good time
yeah, we had a good time I'mkind of curious as well about
(33:11):
you talking about being pursuedby a juvenile lion.
If they didn't want to eat youyou know what's that I mean?
Tom Marchant (33:18):
there's an argument to that.
That's quite an experience.
It's a hell of a thing to gothrough.
And it's like maybe fear, thereis a place for controlled chaos
or kind of controlled fear whenwe go to other places.
You would never go out.
Maybe you would never go outand maybe you would go out.
Some people do go out and seekit right.
They do want to go and go tosomewhere.
Very I know there's a wholeside to sort of dark tourism and
whatever.
(33:38):
Um, and the optics of that canseem quite strange to me, but I
think moments of controlledchaos and fear can be good.
Would you ever go, like youknow?
Jacqui Gifford (33:48):
I'm not like a skydiver type or, uh, not a
natural thrill seeker, but Iunderstand why some people
really respond to that, orthat's certainly a trend that
we've seen over time and travel.
You know it's funny, I, I stillhave not done hot air
ballooning and my husbandabsolutely refuses to do it and
(34:11):
he, he pretty much will doanything.
Tom Marchant (34:13):
Has he got vertigo or fear of heights or?
Jacqui Gifford (34:15):
just is like there is no way I'm getting and
then, I actually look and I'mlike I kind of get why yeah,
you're in a wicker basketsuspended above the earth.
Yeah, I'm sure it's fine, I'mlike actually it's kind of?
Tom Marchant (34:28):
obviously I don't want to.
You know if it deter anyone.
Yeah, I'm sure it's fine.
Jacqui Gifford (34:33):
I totally get it but um but.
I would imagine you get in ahot air balloon and there's this
moment of fear, and then youmust feel this moment of relief
when you actually land on it.
Tom Marchant (34:42):
So maybe it's.
It's not the fear itself somuch as that kind of fading of
the fear, the kind of adrenalinerush, that kind of yeah.
Jacqui Gifford (34:54):
It's why space tourism is developing, it's why
all there's so many, or it's why, you know, I would imagine, um,
you know, sailing to antarctica.
There's a bit of that that goesinto it.
Tom Marchant (34:59):
Right, it's well, it's kind of last frontiers in
the world that has, like we said, has been largely trodden and
saturated, but is there anywhere?
That's your last frontier, likeplace?
You haven't been yet, that youare desperate to go to, or maybe
holding off on going there Ihave not done Antarctica, I've
not done gosh.
Jacqui Gifford (35:18):
I mean, there's so many places I have not been
to.
I've not been to Peru and I'mreally eager to get there.
You know the other.
Going back to another questionyou asked and I should have
mentioned this, the Galapagos.
That was a destination when wedid a cruise there with Quasar,
which was really interestingbecause again, you're challenged
a lot.
Physically.
I never felt fear there, but Ialso felt.
(35:40):
Again it's a place where yourealize that the wildlife is in
control.
I like going to places whereyou're right, you're seeding a
level of control and that couldbe in an urban environment too,
where you're just either youdon't speak the language, you
just again going back to theoriginal sort of foundation of
it.
Tom Marchant (35:58):
You feel like you're out of a fish out of
water yeah, literally, yeah isthere a, an experience you
didn't expect you have on a tripthat kind of I?
I suppose knocks you off yourfeet a little bit.
Jacqui Gifford (36:14):
When we were in Rwanda, when we were in Kigali,
you know we were there for twoor three days and a lot of
people actually don't spend alot of time in Kigali because
they want to go out to do thegorillas and the national parks.
And one of the things we choseto do and I don't regret it at
(36:35):
all all was experience and go tothe genocide memorial there and
it's a heartbreaking experience.
You are not allowed to takephotos inside.
You know, we actually chose,through much care and thought,
to bring our son as well so hecould experience it.
He's nine.
At the time he was eight.
I felt many emotions over thecourse of the two hours we were
there and one that I think youknow I wasn't expecting to.
(36:56):
You feel sadness, you feelhopeless, but I was also came
out.
I was very angry at pointsbecause again and it's emotion
that's tied to the other two,but I was angry that something
could like that could happen.
And then I also felt veryprotective as a mother who was
there with her child and thereare parts of the museum where
(37:16):
you see what happened tochildren and you know it was one
of the most profoundexperiences I've ever had.
My son really handled it reallywell, and one of the guards who
was there and one of theleaders in the museum, he saw
obviously we were bringing Bobbyin.
He said, you know, he can doeverything except don't bring
him into this one place and, andthat was obviously the right
(37:40):
call this one part of the museumwhich specifically you know it,
it was important for him to seeparts of it and, as a parent.
I shielded him from the thingsthat I didn't feel he was old
enough to see.
But again, going back to thatfeeling of anger, you know that
was something I didn't think Iwould ever feel on a trip.
Tom Marchant (38:01):
Yeah, I suppose you're expecting to feel certain
solemnity and you know quietude, maybe when you're there, but
yeah, to have the maybe, that'sthe more human emotion in a way,
and it's the flip side of whatyou were talking about earlier.
You know, going to Egypt andfeeling a sense of optimism and
hope about humanity.
You know the good things, thegood side of things.
And then the anger feels likethe kind of Janice face.
(38:21):
Yeah, and you look you feel arange.
Jacqui Gifford (38:24):
I think that's the thing.
You know why people aregravitating towards travel right
now.
What inspires them is that itallows you to feel a range of
things, and sometimes you gointo a place expecting one thing
and you come out feelinganother.
Tom Marchant (38:37):
There's very few things that feel surprising
anymore in life, and travel isthe one great surprise it's
interesting because you use theword permission earlier about
new york, and maybe it's in thesame way that new york has the
permission to change.
I think when people travel,they feel like that you know New
York has the permission tochange.
I think when people travel, theyfeel like that you know being
away they have permission to, Idon't know to feel more, to be a
(38:59):
different person to make a notnecessarily a performance, but
you know they feel like they can, they're outside of their
routine and you can kind of playaround a bit with how you feel.
Jacqui Gifford (39:07):
I think you're you can feel a little bit freer
right so.
I think sometimes, certainlywith work, and but this doesn't
necessarily apply to it.
You know, I'm just thinkingabout it through my lens.
Obviously somebody who'sworking all the time, and but
whether you're retired whetheryou're you know might not be
working at all.
Whatever it is, you're in a newenvironment and you can sort of
(39:31):
let the routine go of.
You know what you do back homeis just sort of gone, for when
you strip that away, you can bea different person.
I think that's why you know,now to solo travel is a trend
that we're seeing really takeoff is that people feel this
license to just do what theywant to do in a way that they
didn't probably 30, 40 years ago.
(39:53):
There there's this permissionto just go out and sort of
discover a new side of yourself.
Tom Marchant (39:58):
Yeah, um, well, I think we are probably out of
time, um, but yeah, thank you somuch, Jacqui, for joining us.
Um, it's been an absolutepleasure.
I know we've gone through fearand anger, but also optimism and
hope as well, which is good.
So we have the full gamut of.
It's very much like that scenein Donnie Darko where he's like
you know, they've got that boardwith hate and love on both
sides, but he says it's acontinuum.
(40:19):
So, that's what we're doingEmotional continuum.
Thank you.
Owen Vince (40:24):
You've been listening to the Pursuit of
Feeling, a podcast by BlackTomato.
If you've enjoyed this episode,then please hit the subscribe
button.
We've got a lot more episodeson the way and if you're feeling
inspired by what you've heardtoday, then visit blacktomatocom
.
We'll help you to travel whereyour heart is.
Thanks for listening.
You're listening to the Pursuit of Feeling, a
podcast by Black Tomato.
In this new series, we want toexplore not only the world of
travel, but the world of emotionand what it ultimately means to
feel our way through the world.
In each episode, you'll alsoget a Rolodex of recommendations
from our guests on where to go,what to do and where to stay
(00:23):
all around the world.
Where to go, what to do andwhere to stay all around the
world.
Tom Marchant (00:26):
Today, we're honoured to share our
conversation with Jacqui Gifford, Editor-in-Chief of Travel
Leisure, the world's leadingtravel media brand.
Jacqui global upbringing, bornin Japan and raised in Saudi
Arabia, Qatar and Pennsylvania,instilled in her a deep
appreciation for diversecultures and experiences.
A Princeton graduate with adegree in English, she has
dedicated over two decades totravel and lifestyle journalism.
Since taking the helm at Traveland Leisure in 2018, Jacqui has
(00:49):
guided the publication to newheights, earning prestigious
accolades, including twoNational Magazine Awards and a
James Beard Award.
Under her leadership, themagazine continues to inspire
millions with its compellingstorytelling and stunning
photography.
In this episode, Jacqui sharesher insights on how travel
evokes powerful emotions andpersonal growth.
She also reveals some of herfavourite destinations and
(01:10):
offers an insight into hertravel philosophies and
preferences.
Join us as we delve into theemotional landscapes of travel
with one of the industry's mostinfluential voices.
Hi Jacqui, thank you so much forjoining us this morning on the
pursuit of feeling.
We want to dive straight inwith some questions about
emotion, feeling, travel and theworld.
Why do you think travel is suchan emotive experience, and
(01:33):
maybe you even disagree withthat?
Jacqui Gifford (01:35):
I don't disagree with that.
I think it's inherentlyemotional and emotional time for
an individual because it'staking you out of your comfort
zone.
We've been traveling forcenturies, thousands of years,
and as humans, I think we'reconditioned to crave stability,
to crave comfort, and when wetravel it takes us to literally
(01:59):
another place.
But also when you're outside ofthat comfort zone, it triggers
something in your brain, right,your senses are more alive.
I always feel that way when Igo to a new place.
I'm just more hyper aware of mysurroundings.
You're also feeling veryvulnerable when you travel.
Genetically we're conditionedto again crave stability, and
when you're outside of thatcomfort zone, you're sort of
like, wow, what's coming at me,what do I need to prepare for?
(02:21):
And you're also looking forpleasure.
So I naturally feel, or I feelthat naturally, it's an
emotional time because you'refeeling quite vulnerable.
Tom Marchant (02:36):
Yeah, in a way you kind of become like a newborn
baby, because very functionalthings like even, like you know,
using public transport or goingto a shop, suddenly are you
know outside of your norm.
You don't know how to.
You don't know the kind ofrules that dictate how people
live.
You can kind of intuit them alittle bit.
But you've had I mean well,what I know of you, you've had a
pretty international life.
You were born in Japan.
I was Right and you've moved allover, so you're kind of fully a
(02:58):
very kind of internationalperson.
Do you think that's made you, Isuppose, less susceptible to
that feeling of culture shockwhen you, when you go somewhere
else?
I think so.
Jacqui Gifford (03:06):
I think that, just because of how I was
growing up and my parents'mentality, ethos of they were
naturally always really curiousand love to explore and go to
different destinations so Ithink that I've always been more
of an extrovert.
It's in my personality and Ithink that, you know, there's
always the nature of nurture.
(03:26):
I'll never quite know if I, youknow, if I was living here in
the States my whole life, if Iwould have decided as an adult
to travel the world in the sameway maybe.
But here I am today as somebodywho has lived in multiple
countries now lived in New Yorkfor over 20 years.
I think that I am naturallycurious and I love to explore
(03:48):
and put myself in that positionof vulnerability because then I
think it allows for growth andthen in turn you become a
stronger person because of it,because you do get to interact
with other cultures, with otherpeople, meet them where they are
, and I always feel that when Icome back from a trip I've grown
in some way.
It could be a really small trip.
It doesn't have to be somethinggrand, it could be even going
(04:10):
here within the US.
I think we sort of dismiss theidea that a domestic trip is.
You know, it's an adventure too, right?
So I personally feel thattraveling always leads to growth
.
Tom Marchant (04:21):
Always, always, okay, talking about kind of
resilience and kind of, you know, growth.
When you travel, do you findthat there are particular places
where you're more likely tohave those?
Transformative is quite aweighted word in a way, but kind
of to have those kind ofrealizations, or are they more
unexpected?
Jacqui Gifford (04:37):
I think that there are certain trips when you
I'm going to name one that Itook recently when we went to
Egypt you I'm going to name onethat I took recently when we
went to Egypt when you're sortof struck by the sweep of time
and sort of how small yourpresence is really in the world.
Some of the monuments and sortof the grand, you know, the
scale of the pyramids, some ofthe temples we saw, and you
(04:58):
realize that these buildingswere built thousands of years
ago.
I imagine people have the samefeeling when they go to Greece,
orce or italy or turkey.
You really do feel quite small.
So I feel that trips thatreally look back at history and
the historical those really giveyou a a sense of wonder I mean,
I suppose we're talking aboutthe pyramids, the valley of the
kings, these places.
Tom Marchant (05:17):
Is it quite difficult to?
This was your first time seeingthese things in the I have been
before, but not as an adult.
Jacqui Gifford (05:24):
I'd actually gone, believe it or not, when I
was a teenager, and I think thatI appreciated it much more on
this trip.
But anyway, go on.
Tom Marchant (05:31):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean I'm curious about
places that are, in a way,really overdetermined by the
image of them, right, Because, Iknow I mean you've written
about the Taj Mahal, for examplethis is somewhere you see in
photographs and in film hundredsof times potentially, before
you actually go, yeah, to theseplaces.
So when you finally experienceit, you're kind of having to
(05:52):
balance the experiential momentin your head with this image you
have that from I don't know atv series or a film or a book.
Does that?
Do you find you can kind offilter out those two?
I can, so I think it's funny.
Jacqui Gifford (06:03):
I've thought about this actually when we were
in Egypt this last time and wesaw the Sphinx, because a lot of
people say to me I've heardpeople say, oh, the Sphinx isn't
as impressive as I thought itwould be, and to me I think
people have built up that theSphinx is bigger in their minds
than it actually is.
Look, people are entitled totheir own opinions, but my
perspective on that particularsentiment is you're looking at
(06:25):
something that's still thousandsand thousands of years old.
The fact that it's stillstanding is impressive enough to
me, right?
So I think it's hard now, withsocial media and media in
general, people have alreadydecided in their minds what a
place is going to look likebefore they even get there.
I'm a glass half full kind of aperson, so I've always feel
that when I get to that place,there's a moment of appreciation
(06:49):
and respect for the fact thatit still exists first of all,
and then you have to sort ofabsorb the sheer amount of
people that might be there whichis a real challenge right now
in tourism and then understandsort of your place within the
framework.
Again, I'm glass half full, full.
I go in sort of understandingthat these places are incredible
and I feel like it always isbetter in person.
Tom Marchant (07:09):
Yeah I've had that feeling a lot when you, you
know you kind of, can have tocontend with the fact that you
go somewhere, there are peoplethere and it might be kind of
ordinary life flowing around it,and you're like, well, I'm also
a person that's come here right, you can't have it in a
pristine way.
You know it's kind of exists inthe world that's come here,
right, you can't have it in apristine way.
You know it's kind of exists inthe world.
That's what makes itinteresting.
I am curious, though are thereplaces where you've been, or, I
suppose, destinations orexperiences that you've had
(07:32):
where your expectation wascompletely I don't know the
expectation, you have reallyclashed with the actual
experience.
Jacqui Gifford (07:39):
You know it's funny.
I find that, again, because ofmy sort of just general
curiosity, I usually choose adestination and go in sort of
knowing enough about it to feellike it's going to be a positive
experience.
One place that I think thatreally challenged me overall was
Rwanda.
So I went last year with myfamily and I was so excited to
(08:02):
go and see the gorillas andthat's you know, the mountain
gorillas and go tracking them inVolcanoes National Park that's
you know.
Many people wait their wholelives to do it.
So I was so thrilled andhonored we could do it.
I think I was expecting that tobe incredible and it was, but I
wasn't expecting the other partsof the destination to be as
fulfilling as they wereemotionally, whether it was
(08:24):
Kigali, which is an incrediblyrich city, akagera National Park
I think I don't want to eversay I had low expectations,
because I didn't, but I wasunprepared for the sort of
diversity of experiences youcould have in one very small
country where tourism is,frankly, really nascent.
So you know, it's obviouslyit's been 30 years since the
(08:46):
genocide there and the fact thatthere's even tourism at all is
remarkable.
So I think my perception of itwas wildlife, sure, but I walked
out of the destination feelinglike this is a place that is
filled with a remarkablyresilient people.
Tom Marchant (09:03):
Yeah, I mean it's quite an incredible
transformation in a way, becausecertain I suppose certain
countries are in a way, theshadow of their past hangs over
them in a very big way.
I mean, Cambodia is the same ina lot of senses, right, so
you're kind of contending withthis history, which is there and
also trying to.
Like you said earlier, you'reultimately traveling for
pleasure.
You know new experiences andpleasure and there can be a
(09:27):
slight you know a little bit ofkind of cognitive dissonance
when you're in a place, butmaybe around us, somewhere where
that kind of is obviously verypositive, very, you know,
profound experience.
I mean so with the gorillas.
That experience itself was thisthing that you were mentally
focused on in the run-ups.
Jacqui Gifford (09:38):
I think I was mentally focused on it for a
couple of reasons.
One it can be quite physicallychallenging, so I was concerned
about making sure you know youhave the right gear.
You're out there.
I also should say we didchimpanzee trekking, which I
actually found much harder thangorilla trekking Chimpanzee
trekking was an experience thattotally floored me.
(10:00):
I've never been that physicallychallenged on a trip in my life.
It was five or six hours inYongwei forest.
Absolutely there's no, reallyno trails at some points where
you're just going up hills.
There, you know the trackersare cutting trees, branches,
(10:21):
clear a path for you to see thechimps, who are quite fast
moving right.
The gorillas are slower moving.
So I was challenged in a waythat you know you're seeing this
animal totally in the wild, ontheir terms and with a
traditional safari experience.
When you're in a vehicle,there's the comfort of the
vehicle.
When you're on foot, it's verydifferent.
So I found it to be reallyrewarding, rewarding and I think
(10:44):
this is something you couldacknowledge.
As a traveler.
I don't think I would choose togo chimpanzee trekking again oh
, really, and that's okay.
Tom Marchant (10:51):
Oh, just because of the physical, I think,
because I think there are someexperiences that you can say one
time is enough it's not that itwasn't rewarding.
Jacqui Gifford (11:00):
it's not that it wasn't rewarding, it's just
that I think that the physicalpart was hard, but also I I've
never come back from a trip oran experience at that day being
so emotionally and physicallydrained where.
I was like I'm in bed by seven30.
I can't physically move anymore.
Tom Marchant (11:22):
The ache sets in and also really sort of
physically.
Jacqui Gifford (11:26):
But also, you know, you're looking at this
group of chimps right andthey're just fascinating
creatures, and so I I think itreally sort of challenged my
thinking around them as well,and also in a good way, like
should I be here?
Tom Marchant (11:45):
and I'm glad I did it.
Yeah, was.
Jacqui Gifford (11:48):
I getting too close to them and obviously I
wasn't, because and the guideswere very, you know they're it's
all very controlled.
But you know, there's alwaysthat tension between travelers
and wildlife like, should Ireally be here and um, and I
definitely felt it on that tripat that particular moment, which
is why I can say I don't thinkI'd do it again like you were
almost trespassing on this alittle bit, a little bit also.
(12:12):
Again, it's a completely safeexperience, it's all.
It's just.
I understand why they they'revery controlled, but it's like I
I don't know if I would.
I just don't think I would doit again, okay maybe, maybe the
memory is too perfect you shouldperfect, you should do it, and
then you can tell me what youthink about it.
Tom Marchant (12:28):
I mean it's true.
I mean there's certain maybeyou know if you go, if you
repeatedly go to a place andmaybe that kind of sense of
culture shock that you talkedabout earlier begins to kind of
you know, wear away a little bit, becomes familiar, and it is
very nice being you know feelingat home somewhere on multiple
visits, but you do lose thatkind of reason of what am I
doing?
Jacqui Gifford (12:45):
How do I?
Tom Marchant (12:45):
how do I interact in this place, I think with
chimpanzees as well.
It's kind of strange becauseyou are looking for this signs
of humanity in a weird way.
Like you know, you are kind oftrying to see how, how familiar
they are to like to me, which isnot something you're doing when
you're you know the variouschimps somewhere.
Jacqui Gifford (13:12):
They're looking directly at you and you could
just almost tell like wow, okay,the level of consciousness and
the level of intelligence is sohigh.
And with the gorillas it's avery similar feeling.
And the gorillas for lack of abetter word they just seem a
little bit warmer and fuzzierthan the chimps.
(13:32):
So, um, although they'recertainly not, but it's just in
two very different experiences,I feel very fortunate to have
had two very differentexperiences on that same trip.
What's interesting is, I wouldsay I would do the gorilla
trekking again, but I I don'tknow if I would do the chimp
checking again the chimpanzeewas too intense, it was too
intense, it was too intense.
(13:54):
I also recognized too muchlooking at them.
That was, it was almost, it wastoo disconcerting.
Tom Marchant (14:01):
Interesting, disconcerting how.
Jacqui Gifford (14:02):
You could tell that they just I don't know if
they really wanted us there.
Tom Marchant (14:06):
I really so more territorial, but they weren't
threatening in any and again, itwas totally safe.
Jacqui Gifford (14:12):
I just don't there's.
There's an edge there.
Tom Marchant (14:15):
Okay, yeah, can I tell you something scary?
Jacqui Gifford (14:17):
And I swear my husband felt the same way he was
like hmm.
We've wandered into the wrongpart of town.
Tom Marchant (14:23):
Yeah, that's what you're thinking I'll tell you
something scary, which is Ibriefly did uh, studied primate
anthropology years and years agoand there was a you know, so I
know a little bit.
I think we had this, thislecture.
He was telling us about aparticular tribe of chimpanzees,
very specifically one who hadlearned to hunt with tools.
So they were sharpening spearsand hunting.
Jacqui Gifford (14:43):
So at that point , okay it's a planet of the apes
kind of it really is.
Tom Marchant (14:47):
It really is you came very close.
You know, I think yeah, 98.
We share 98% of our DNA withthem.
But it's 97% with the bananas,so I don't know what that says.
So these are, like, obviouslyvery extraordinary, very, you
know, like you said, things youprobably wouldn't do more than
(15:08):
once.
Yes, you kind of want to feel abit strange there.
By contrast, where do you feelmost at home?
Jacqui Gifford (15:15):
I feel obviously at home in my hometown of New
York City, which I think is.
I should always acknowledgethat when you live in a big city
like this, there are stillplenty of places to explore.
There are neighborhoods.
I've still yet to go torestaurants to try, so I often
still feel like I'm a touristhere.
I feel like I'm a tourist here.
I feel like I'm a tourist hereevery day, but I feel at home
(15:37):
here, just walking the streetsand absorbing right.
I feel at home in Japan, eventhough it's been 10 years since
I've been.
But I, since I was born thereleft, moved back, I went to
school there something about it,I think when you're born in a
place, again that sort of naturenurture I'm not Japanese, but I
I feel, when you're born in aplace, again that sort of nature
nurture.
(15:57):
I'm not Japanese, but I feel akinship there and just because I
lived there, I also spent a lotof time in the Middle East
growing up as a child.
So whenever I return I feel asense of comfort and just a
nostalgic.
I think when you spend asubstantive amount of time in a
place and you enjoy it, I thinkyou'll always have a funness for
it and will naturally feel acertain amount of you know
(16:17):
warmth.
I also feel that way aboutHawaii, though I haven't been
back in some time.
I used to vacation there all thetime with my family and we
would go every year, and that'swhy I think some people choose
to vacation in one spot all thetime.
I've sort of shifted away fromthat pattern and travel habit
just because of my work and whatI do now, where I sort of
(16:38):
naturally feel like I have tohave an understanding of what's
going on in multiple places.
But a lot of people choose totravel like that and that's
completely fine.
Tom Marchant (16:45):
I think it's fine.
Yeah, I've done that in thepast as well.
You know, Barcelona is a placeI've been to 10, 15 times.
Jacqui Gifford (16:51):
Yeah, so you're going to feel comfortable there.
Tom Marchant (16:53):
Yeah, it's kind of nice to know what I'm doing
slightly, even though my Spanishis terrible.
But you know, you kind ofmentioned work and I'm curious
about that.
Obviously, editing writing, doyou travel differently when
you're traveling on assignmentprofessionally to when you're
traveling for your own leisure?
Basically yes.
Jacqui Gifford (17:09):
I have to sort of switch my brain a little bit
when I'm when I'm traveling foran assignment, there's a you
know you're.
You're constantly taking notes,interviews, meeting people.
There's a certain level of likeon this I call it when you're
doing that.
I'm a curious person and I lovethat kind of travel, but then
there's also trips that have tobe completely restorative and
(17:32):
shut off.
So one place that my family andI love and I know we were
talking earlier about thecomfort and we love Ischia in
Italy.
It's an island off the coast byNaples and we have been now
twice for about eight days aweek and it's a very special
place.
There's healing waters, thermalwaters.
It's a really beautiful,beautiful island, and what I
(17:55):
love about it is that mostly themost travelers there are
Italian, and so it feels alittle bit like a throwback.
And when we go, we stay at thisbeautiful hotel called the
Regina Isabella, which was builtin the fifties by Angela
Rizzoli, but it has a timecapsule quality to it these old
Neapolitan tiles and breakfastin the morning with waiters, you
know, wearing full jackets, andit has this beautiful quality
(18:20):
to it where it just makes youwant to slow down.
So I go and I bring my booksand we walk into town at night
and my son loves it, my husbandloves it, my parents love it,
because it really feels like aplace where it's not that
there's nothing to do.
There's plenty to do, but we'rethere.
It's truly like that vacationmode, and so I'm not.
You know I'm not there with mybrain going 5 million miles an
(18:45):
hour, so you can.
Tom Marchant (18:46):
You can switch it off when you I can?
Jacqui Gifford (18:48):
I think it's.
I mean listen, I think thehardest part about switching off
now is social media.
If I can be honest, I like topost, so that is the hardest
part.
We were in Canada recently at agreat hotel I shouldn't even
say great, it's beyond greatCalled the Clioquot Wilderness
Lodge, which is on VancouverIsland, the Clioquot Sound, and
(19:15):
the only place we could getWi-Fi was in our room tented
cabin.
Which are these, like you know?
It's crazy.
There's only about 30 roomsthere, and when we were out on
the boat where we saw orcas inseattle, we we didn't get
service and that was great.
Yeah, look.
I think people today arefrazzled, they are stressed, and
we love the ability to connectwith friends and family from all
(19:35):
over the world at any givenmoment and know what's going on
with them.
Technology has given us theseincredible benefits.
It's not going away, but andthen this is a big but there's a
cost that comes with all of it,and I think that we're now at
this point as a society wherewe're starting to analyze what
those costs really are yeah, Ithink.
Tom Marchant (19:55):
I think there's a lot more self-awareness now,
maybe 20, 30 years into having,you know, social media, that
it's actually quite a long timeand it doesn't feel like it
should be that long that peopleare realizing it's a poison than
a cure as well.
You know, it does connect youto the world and you can see
interesting far-flung places andconnect with your friends who
live on the other side of theearth.
But also when you go to theother side of the earth, you
(20:18):
still get your phone in yourpocket.
Jacqui Gifford (20:19):
It's like how you go to a place like, for
example, egypt, when we werethere.
You're interacting with some ofthe most incredible historical
monuments of the world andyou're using your phone probably
to take a picture of a lot ofit.
Phone probably to take apicture of a lot of it, right?
I don't know why, you know, atthat exact moment you need to
message with x friend who is,you know, halfway across the
(20:41):
universe about, or halfwayacross the world about, what
they ate for lunch that day yeahthat I think that there's
there's some real sort of somemysteries, some, yeah, mysteries
.
You know there's some thingsthat we need to sort of get down
to a granular level, and itreally, to me, is about focus
right, and I think that peopletoday really struggle with focus
(21:04):
.
There was a great piece justrecently in the atlantic about
kids can't really focus and reada whole book.
Tom Marchant (21:12):
I read the same piece.
I think about college studentswho are unfamiliar with
finishing.
Jacqui Gifford (21:17):
So you know, listen, and that's one piece,
right?
So I'm not it's, but I rememberwhen and I'm a voracious reader
, and again, I'm hardwired adifferent way, but I remember
consuming volumes and volumes oftext.
In college, part of ourcoursework was to read these
books, and we were expected toread these books, and I did it.
Tom Marchant (21:38):
I did the assignment and I you know, and
listen.
Jacqui Gifford (21:42):
the world has shifted even since then, with
more people focusing on STEMversus the humanities, and
that's an interesting debatethat's going on right now.
But the argument is reallyabout focus.
Can we actually sit withourselves, be in a place and
focus on that for a certainamount of time?
And I think the answer is rightnow we're really struggling,
(22:04):
yeah there's an attendantpressure with that, I think when
you're somewhere because youthink, okay, I'm here to relax,
and then you kind of can't.
Tom Marchant (22:11):
you know, it's hard to suddenly switch into a
place which is everything is setup perfectly and you have a
drink and there's the sun and abeautiful view and a book, and
you think, okay, now I'm readyto relax.
And it's quite hard to switchyour brain off, I think in a way
.
I mean, maybe I don't know ifthe solution is going completely
smartphone-less Would you dothat?
Would you go?
Jacqui Gifford (22:27):
would you travel without taking a device I would
for taking a device for onetrip from start to finish, just
full paperless.
I mean.
Look, I think that a the thesurprising fact is.
Tom Marchant (22:39):
I've done it before.
This is true when I was youngwe all can acknowledge we've
probably.
Jacqui Gifford (22:44):
You know, there was a time when I didn't have
one there are.
There are generations of peoplethat you know maybe haven't
lived that experience, but I'm.
I'm old enough to say that Ihave taken trips without a
smartphone.
So I, you know, maybe haven'tlived that experience, but I'm
I'm old enough to say that Ihave taken trips without a
smartphone.
So, I you know and and had agreat time doing so.
Tom Marchant (22:59):
I think there's something as well, you know,
talking about text and aboutliterature and about reading,
because for me, reading bookswas, you know, an inspiring
experience that made me want totravel.
More than looking at photos, infact, more than music, anything
else, it was like reading, likelaurence darrell or someone
like that, and you know, wantingto travel to greece and to
egypt.
(23:19):
Of course you know, and it'slike I think you're losing
something by not absorbing thosetexts, I suppose, yeah I listen
, you're preaching to the choir.
Jacqui Gifford (23:27):
I'm a big reader , you know.
I keep a running tab and listof all the books that I've read
this year and I use those booksas inspiration for future
travels.
I also buy books when I'm on theground to try and better
understand a place.
You know I love that form oftravel and escapism.
I don't know if it's aswidespread as it used to be, you
(23:49):
know, and that's a sad reality.
But we should also acknowledgethat.
You know the way that mostpeople are consuming.
You know people are listeningto podcasts, they're consuming
video, and that's a form ofcontent that can be very
enriching when done well, andthat is another way to draw
people in and that seems to bethe more prevalent way now of
(24:11):
drawing younger travelers andconsumers in.
And that seems to be a moreprevalent, the more prevalent
way now of drawing youngertravelers and consumers in.
And then the other surprise ofit all is that, you know,
everybody sort of frets andworries about the younger
consumer and guess what Surprisethey get older and then their
habits change.
Tom Marchant (24:25):
It's not true.
We don't get older, it's fine.
So it's like I love it.
Jacqui Gifford (24:28):
It's like everyone's like you know freaks
out about.
You know millennials aren'tdrinking wine?
Well then, surprise they getolder and then they will
eventually drink wine orwhatever, or you know, there's
always some worry about what thenext generation will do, and
then they sort of they change.
Tom Marchant (24:45):
It's a perennial debate, and I think Aristotle
complained about people writingthings down because they lost
the art of like oratory andtalking Right.
So I think that's yeah, yeah,it's kind of an old debate.
It's an old debate yeah, Ithink there was one thing you
mentioned earlier I kind of wantto go back to you talked about
an island in italy um ischia andthe kind of word you I think
the word you didn't say that washanging over.
(25:06):
It was a sense of authenticity.
Jacqui Gifford (25:08):
I think yes, does it is?
Tom Marchant (25:10):
is the authentic authentic?
Does the authentic exist?
And what is it?
Do you think?
Because it is a word that is soeasy to invoke, but I think
what it actually means todifferent people can vary quite
a lot.
Jacqui Gifford (25:23):
I'm going to be somewhat controversial here and
say that authentic as it existsright now in travel.
Well, a, it's overused and B Idon't really know what it means
anymore.
Because the argument for sayingthat Ischia is authentic is
this?
A lot of Italians vacationthere.
It doesn't feel, you know,overrun with Americans, which
(25:47):
you know.
I'm American, so hey, but thereare some destinations, some
places, particularly withinItaly, where it feels like
you're as likely to hear anAmerican accent as an Italian
accent.
Right, I was just readingsomething about.
You know, when you go to Venice, florence, think about that,
right, that some of these placesfeel like they're more tourists
than locals.
Now, at the same time, is theIschia of 2024, the Ischia of
(26:13):
when you know the my BrilliantFriend Ischia?
No, it's not.
And is that a more authenticIschia?
Maybe the one from the past?
I think that the challengeswith the word authenticity is
that it sort of puts a label ona place and says that it's not
entitled or allowed to evolve.
Tom Marchant (26:32):
Yeah, it has to be kind of frozen in time, it has
to be frozen in time and I thinkthat that's not entitled or
allowed to evolve.
Yeah, it has to be kind offrozen in time, it has to be
frozen in time.
Jacqui Gifford (26:35):
And I think that that's the challenge.
Most people naturally want tosee something in what they feel
is a more real state and listen,I think actually the beauty of
living in a place like New Yorkis that New York has permission
to change.
People accept that New York ischanging all the time and
they're totally fine with it.
(26:56):
Some places don't have thatpermission.
Tom Marchant (27:00):
I suppose you would notice the change more
right, it would be much moreextravagant, it would be
exaggerated in a way.
Jacqui Gifford (27:06):
New York is a place of immigrants.
It's a place of strivers.
It's a place of people who comeand go.
They want to be a part of thecity and its life.
It's so different from mostcities really in the world and
it's allowed to change.
I think that that's really thestruggle, frankly, with a place
even like Venice.
(27:26):
Right, people are going therefor a very specific.
It's absolutely breathtakinglybeautiful yeah, yeah but, Venice
, I think, is in a realcrossroads moment because it
hasn't been allowed to change inin ways that allow for positive
um impact on some local youknow, local businesses, local
(27:46):
housing.
Tom Marchant (27:47):
It's a really interesting case study for that
sort of loaded word ofauthenticity and I mean I think
it's so unique in a way it's sounique, I mean it's sort of
really like venice, although mysolution is you should go in
winter it's I mean venice, andwinter is absolutely beautiful.
Jacqui Gifford (28:03):
I think that the idea of when you're going to
see more local life is a wayaround some of these challenges
yeah, there are certaindestinations in the world that I
really feel are at a crossroadsof having to figure out what
the path is forward when itcomes to building up that sort
of like sense of community andvibrancy.
(28:26):
That is actually what peopleare looking for right now.
Tom Marchant (28:29):
Yeah, they don't cause.
You don't want to encountersomeone like yourself in a way.
Right, you know to travelacross the world, I mean, you
know, to be on a street withpeople who could live on the
same street you actually live onback home can be quite jarring,
but maybe with somewhere likeVenice, yeah, the case is, what
do we want to be in the future?
What do we want our identity tobe?
There's a reason people go tothese places.
Jacqui Gifford (28:55):
Of course, because you guess almost now,
you know six, 700 years ago,when it was this maritime power.
Tom Marchant (29:04):
And that to me is fascinating and rich.
Jacqui Gifford (29:07):
And you know again, as we speak about, like,
the historical threat of certainplaces.
So, you know, is it absolutelyamazing?
Sure, and I would go theretomorrow if given the chance but
, I, think you're just you're asa, as someone again who's
curious and sort of just lookingat this from an editor's lens.
I'm always thinking about someof these questions.
And when someone goes, which isagain what we hear all the time.
(29:28):
People go to a place andthey're like oh, it was
overcrowded or I didn't have theexperience I thought I was
going to have.
Tom Marchant (29:34):
You have to sort of ask why One thing I want to
ask obviously, this podcast ismostly about feeling and emotion
and travel.
Has there been a kind of what'sthe biggest emotional shift
you've had when you've beentraveling?
Has there been a time when theshift has been, you know, so
(29:55):
exaggerated or so huge, soremarkable?
Is there a place?
Jacqui Gifford (29:58):
So I'll give you two examples.
One this was years ago.
My husband and I were on safariin Botswana.
Yeah, I love being in Africa,it's just, and seeing the
wildlife there, it's soenriching from an emotional
standpoint.
You again, you feel quite smallin the world and you're told
the animals see the vehicle asone thing.
(30:20):
I remember it to this day.
We were in and this is over 10years ago.
We were in the very back row ofthe vehicle and there was
another couple in front of usand another couple in front of
us and then the driver and wewere driving through a fairly
open field.
And we get to this point and wesee this group of lions and two
(30:42):
of the lions were sleeping andI think they were females, and
there was a male who was veryawake and we got closer and
approached the lion and helooked up.
And we got closer andapproached the lion and he
looked up and you could, it waslike he.
I swear he looked exact.
He looked right at us.
He was not.
He looked at my husband.
He was not looking at anybodyelse in the vehicle.
(31:06):
And and I and I went like thisand I literally grabbed his knee
and and it was like we knewthat he was looking at us and
the driver was like everything'sokay, don't worry, and he's
like I'm just going to startbacking up slowly, and then he
kept looking at us.
We then just sort of zoomedaway and the lion actually gave
(31:27):
chase and it was a play.
It was a play thing, like hewasn't.
But you know, it was one ofthose things where you were kind
of like, oh, like it it feltand I felt total fear, like that
was like my stomach justbasically dropped.
And then you know, aftersomething like that you sort of
get that like adrenaline rushand it was really um, and I felt
(31:49):
that a couple of times whenI've traveled where it was like,
you know, that total, like ah,and then you feel that high um,
cause you made it out of, out ofthe experience, so um, and then
I would say the sort of likelooking at like a sweep of a
trip, a long trip, like comingout of something and feeling uh,
(32:10):
restored or again reallyenriched.
You know, we've had lots offamily trips that I've felt.
When we went to Kenya with ourson, I felt that way.
Doing Rwanda, we felt that way.
There's so many sort of Egypt,I think just and again, because
it's more present in my mind, Ithink we felt coming out of that
(32:31):
trip really, and it was atiring trip because you're
seeing so many different things,but I mean, I knew it was going
to be a great trip, but I wentin feeling like curious, happy,
and then came out just feelingreally optimistic about humanity
.
Tom Marchant (32:47):
Had you expected that you would feel that way?
Jacqui Gifford (32:49):
No, no, and not that I like I, not that I
thought the trip wasn't gonna begreat, it was more that I just
I think I I felt more inspiredby the sort of intelligence and
creativity of what we as humanbeings can produce quite an
amazing thing to walk away froma trip right, rather than just
thinking oh, that was nice itwas nice, we had a good time
yeah, we had a good time I'mkind of curious as well about
(33:11):
you talking about being pursuedby a juvenile lion.
If they didn't want to eat youyou know what's that I mean?
Tom Marchant (33:18):
there's an argument to that.
That's quite an experience.
It's a hell of a thing to gothrough.
And it's like maybe fear, thereis a place for controlled chaos
or kind of controlled fear whenwe go to other places.
You would never go out.
Maybe you would never go outand maybe you would go out.
Some people do go out and seekit right.
They do want to go and go tosomewhere.
Very I know there's a wholeside to sort of dark tourism and
whatever.
(33:38):
Um, and the optics of that canseem quite strange to me, but I
think moments of controlledchaos and fear can be good.
Would you ever go, like youknow?
Jacqui Gifford (33:48):
I'm not like a skydiver type or, uh, not a
natural thrill seeker, but Iunderstand why some people
really respond to that, orthat's certainly a trend that
we've seen over time and travel.
You know it's funny, I, I stillhave not done hot air
ballooning and my husbandabsolutely refuses to do it and
(34:11):
he, he pretty much will doanything.
Tom Marchant (34:13):
Has he got vertigo or fear of heights or?
Jacqui Gifford (34:15):
just is like there is no way I'm getting and
then, I actually look and I'mlike I kind of get why yeah,
you're in a wicker basketsuspended above the earth.
Yeah, I'm sure it's fine, I'mlike actually it's kind of?
Tom Marchant (34:28):
obviously I don't want to.
You know if it deter anyone.
Yeah, I'm sure it's fine.
Jacqui Gifford (34:33):
I totally get it but um but.
I would imagine you get in ahot air balloon and there's this
moment of fear, and then youmust feel this moment of relief
when you actually land on it.
Tom Marchant (34:42):
So maybe it's.
It's not the fear itself somuch as that kind of fading of
the fear, the kind of adrenalinerush, that kind of yeah.
Jacqui Gifford (34:54):
It's why space tourism is developing, it's why
all there's so many, or it's why, you know, I would imagine, um,
you know, sailing to antarctica.
There's a bit of that that goesinto it.
Tom Marchant (34:59):
Right, it's well, it's kind of last frontiers in
the world that has, like we said, has been largely trodden and
saturated, but is there anywhere?
That's your last frontier, likeplace?
You haven't been yet, that youare desperate to go to, or maybe
holding off on going there Ihave not done Antarctica, I've
not done gosh.
Jacqui Gifford (35:18):
I mean, there's so many places I have not been
to.
I've not been to Peru and I'mreally eager to get there.
You know the other.
Going back to another questionyou asked and I should have
mentioned this, the Galapagos.
That was a destination when wedid a cruise there with Quasar,
which was really interestingbecause again, you're challenged
a lot.
Physically.
I never felt fear there, but Ialso felt.
(35:40):
Again it's a place where yourealize that the wildlife is in
control.
I like going to places whereyou're right, you're seeding a
level of control and that couldbe in an urban environment too,
where you're just either youdon't speak the language, you
just again going back to theoriginal sort of foundation of
it.
Tom Marchant (35:58):
You feel like you're out of a fish out of
water yeah, literally, yeah isthere a, an experience you
didn't expect you have on a tripthat kind of I?
I suppose knocks you off yourfeet a little bit.
Jacqui Gifford (36:14):
When we were in Rwanda, when we were in Kigali,
you know we were there for twoor three days and a lot of
people actually don't spend alot of time in Kigali because
they want to go out to do thegorillas and the national parks.
And one of the things we choseto do and I don't regret it at
(36:35):
all all was experience and go tothe genocide memorial there and
it's a heartbreaking experience.
You are not allowed to takephotos inside.
You know, we actually chose,through much care and thought,
to bring our son as well so hecould experience it.
He's nine.
At the time he was eight.
I felt many emotions over thecourse of the two hours we were
there and one that I think youknow I wasn't expecting to.
(36:56):
You feel sadness, you feelhopeless, but I was also came
out.
I was very angry at pointsbecause again and it's emotion
that's tied to the other two,but I was angry that something
could like that could happen.
And then I also felt veryprotective as a mother who was
there with her child and thereare parts of the museum where
(37:16):
you see what happened tochildren and you know it was one
of the most profoundexperiences I've ever had.
My son really handled it reallywell, and one of the guards who
was there and one of theleaders in the museum, he saw
obviously we were bringing Bobbyin.
He said, you know, he can doeverything except don't bring
him into this one place and, andthat was obviously the right
(37:40):
call this one part of the museumwhich specifically you know it,
it was important for him to seeparts of it and, as a parent.
I shielded him from the thingsthat I didn't feel he was old
enough to see.
But again, going back to thatfeeling of anger, you know that
was something I didn't think Iwould ever feel on a trip.
Tom Marchant (38:01):
Yeah, I suppose you're expecting to feel certain
solemnity and you know quietude, maybe when you're there, but
yeah, to have the maybe, that'sthe more human emotion in a way,
and it's the flip side of whatyou were talking about earlier.
You know, going to Egypt andfeeling a sense of optimism and
hope about humanity.
You know the good things, thegood side of things.
And then the anger feels likethe kind of Janice face.
(38:21):
Yeah, and you look you feel arange.
Jacqui Gifford (38:24):
I think that's the thing.
You know why people aregravitating towards travel right
now.
What inspires them is that itallows you to feel a range of
things, and sometimes you gointo a place expecting one thing
and you come out feelinganother.
Tom Marchant (38:37):
There's very few things that feel surprising
anymore in life, and travel isthe one great surprise it's
interesting because you use theword permission earlier about
new york, and maybe it's in thesame way that new york has the
permission to change.
I think when people travel,they feel like that you know New
York has the permission tochange.
I think when people travel, theyfeel like that you know being
away they have permission to, Idon't know to feel more, to be a
(38:59):
different person to make a notnecessarily a performance, but
you know they feel like they can, they're outside of their
routine and you can kind of playaround a bit with how you feel.
Jacqui Gifford (39:07):
I think you're you can feel a little bit freer
right so.
I think sometimes, certainlywith work, and but this doesn't
necessarily apply to it.
You know, I'm just thinkingabout it through my lens.
Obviously somebody who'sworking all the time, and but
whether you're retired whetheryou're you know might not be
working at all.
Whatever it is, you're in a newenvironment and you can sort of
(39:31):
let the routine go of.
You know what you do back homeis just sort of gone, for when
you strip that away, you can bea different person.
I think that's why you know,now to solo travel is a trend
that we're seeing really takeoff is that people feel this
license to just do what theywant to do in a way that they
didn't probably 30, 40 years ago.
(39:53):
There there's this permissionto just go out and sort of
discover a new side of yourself.
Tom Marchant (39:58):
Yeah, um, well, I think we are probably out of
time, um, but yeah, thank you somuch, Jacqui, for joining us.
Um, it's been an absolutepleasure.
I know we've gone through fearand anger, but also optimism and
hope as well, which is good.
So we have the full gamut of.
It's very much like that scenein Donnie Darko where he's like
you know, they've got that boardwith hate and love on both
sides, but he says it's acontinuum.
(40:19):
So, that's what we're doingEmotional continuum.
Thank you.
Owen Vince (40:24):
You've been listening to the Pursuit of
Feeling, a podcast by BlackTomato.
If you've enjoyed this episode,then please hit the subscribe
button.
We've got a lot more episodeson the way and if you're feeling
inspired by what you've heardtoday, then visit blacktomatocom
.
We'll help you to travel whereyour heart is.
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com