June 19, 2025 • 32 mins
Geoff is on tour in Holland with the internationally renowned trumpet player Steve Fishwick. In a dressing room before the gig, they catch up on all things jazz improvisation.
Growing up in Manchester during the UK's jazz boom of the late 1980s, Steve recalls his first encounters with jazz through television documentaries and live performances, including a memorable Dizzy Gillespie concert that ignited his passion.
What makes this discussion particularly valuable is Steve's honesty about the challenges of learning improvisation without today's resources. His description of "groping in the dark" with mail-order jazz books and painstakingly transcribing solos by ear offers a stark contrast to today's learning landscape. Yet there's something profoundly important about that struggle – it forced a deep listening practice that became the foundation of his musical identity.
Steve shares pivotal moments that shaped his development: advice from saxophonist Jim Tomlinson about arpeggiating chords in time, discovering the power of transcription through Steve Waterman's example, and transformative guidance from Lew Soloff about breathing techniques. His reflections on studying with the legendary Arnold Jacobs of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra reveal the cross-pollination between classical and jazz traditions that enriches his teaching at institutions like Leeds Conservatoire and Trinity College London.
The conversation takes fascinating turns as Steve demonstrates Lee Morgan's distinctive trumpet techniques and discusses the challenge of being an introvert in an art form that demands extroverted expression. Steve shows his improvisational prowess through Victor Young/Ned Washington’s 40s standard ‘Stella by Starlight’ accompanied by the trusty Quartet app of course!
His career highlights – recording with Cedar Walton, performing with Anita O'Day, and being mentored by jazz legends – illustrate how dedication to craft eventually opens remarkable doors.
If you're passionate about jazz, trumpet playing, or the artistic journey itself, this episode offers both practical insights and inspiring wisdom. Listen as we explore the delicate balance between technical mastery and authentic expression, and discover why playing for the love of music – rather than competition – remains Steve's guiding principle.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:00):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in Holland, actually.
I'm part of the way through atour.
I've taken this advantage totalk to an old friend, Steve
(00:23):
Fishwick, the trumpet aboutbebop, about influences and
loads of other stuff like that.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:50):
T he Quartet jazz standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.
Geoff (00:53):
Hi Steve, how are you today
Steve (00:55):
Pretty good.
Geoff (00:56):
Can you just tell me a bit about how you got started,
what your um influences were andhow you first started
improvising?
Steve (01:02):
I guess it's the usual story.
You know, started playingtrumpet when I was eight at
school and free lessons andstuff and I had a really great
teacher.
He was great because hisenthusiasm was really, really
great and he was reallyinfectious, you know so.
Makes a difference that doesn'tit Massively?
Yeah, and he was.
He was just really curiousabout music but it was kind of
(01:25):
strictly classical lessons.
I think he used to play with aHallé Orchestra but by the time
I started studying with him hewas kind of at the end of his
career, I guess, and he was justteaching, but he hadn't lost
any of his enthusiasm for music.
You know, strictly classicallessons, and he took me through
my grades and stuff like that.
Uh, yeah, I guess I've startedgetting into jazz when I was
(01:48):
about 13, so I started playingwhen I was eight and then by the
time I was about 12, 13 orsomething, it was the time of
the.
You know, the late 80s, early90s was the uh, jazz boom in the
UK and when I talked to mystudents about it these days
they look at me like I'm crazy.
But I mean, you'll remember,you know how it was everywhere.
It was all over the media andin the newspapers, on the TV all
(02:11):
the time Courtney Pine andTommy Smith and the Jazz
Warriors and Andy Sheppard andyou know it was.
It was like a hit, fashionablething.
They were kind of showing stuffon the TV like old Jazz 65s and
there's a bunch ofdocumentaries on the BBC about
Winton Marsalis and it was justlike, wow, what is this?
(02:32):
this music, jazz, you know, andthey're making it up, they're
improvising.
How are they doing that?
I was just curious about it.
You know a lot of classical,especially at that time a lot of
classical players would kind oflook down on jazz and kind of,
oh no, especially trumpetteachers, that, oh, you don't
want to mess with jazz, it'llmess up your sound or whatever,
it'll mess up your.
He was just as enthusiasticabout it and curious about it
(02:55):
and, as as we were, you know mybrother as well because my
brother's a drummer.
He was getting into it too.
But I remember going to hearDizzy Gillespie at the Free
Trade Hall and my, my teacherwas Manchester right yeah,
that's where you grew up inManchester, my teacher.
His name was John Crosdale.
He was at the concert as welland, uh, in the next lesson, a
couple of days later, he broughtthe program from the concert
(03:19):
and it'd been signed by DizzyGillespie and Arturo Sandoval,
and he'd gone backstage and likechatted to Arturo and Dizzy
about trumpet and stuff and hereally gave us the program to
keep you know oh that's nice.
Yeah, he's a great guy.
Geoff (03:34):
So how did you start improvising then?
What was your first steps?
Steve (03:37):
Oh gosh, it was just like groping in the dark.
I guess there were summerschools, like Wavendo n Summer
School and we kind of found outabout that and went on that and
stuff.
And there was a record shopcalled Decoy Records in
Manchester and that was reallygreat.
It was a really, really goodrecord shop.
So we used to go there andspend all our money there and
get a bunch of records andlisten to them over and over and
(03:59):
then go back a few months laterand get more.
But actually playing.
I remember like sending off touh, Jazz wise catalog e for just
like books like Jamey Aebersold playalongs and stuff like
that and you know, trying todecipher the scales.
Remember they used to write thescales out yeah, they had the
scale syllabus, wasn't it?
Geoff (04:18):
all these written modes and stuff, yeah as well, yeah
but they used to write out thescales.
Steve (04:23):
They had the chords written out and then they'd
write out the scales and stuff.
And it was trying to, you know,trying to decipher that and it
was.
It just wasn't really workingbecause like a dictionary,
wasn't it?
Or something you just end uplike going up and down the
scales, and it doesn't soundvery good, you know.
And then, you could kind ofgradually piece it together.
And I remember going toWavenden and just asking people
questions.
I remember a couple of lightbulb moments where, like I
(04:44):
remember going to Wavenden andjust asking people questions.
I remember a couple of lightbulb moments where, like I
remember going to Jim Tomlinsonat the end of a class and asking
him like what should I do, whatshould I practice?
And he just told me to likearpeggiate the chords in time so
that I could kind of get themin my brain and that really,
really helps.
Geoff (05:01):
Yeah.
Steve (05:03):
And the other one was Steve Waterman, just showing me
all these transcriptions thathe'd done himself like written
down.
So I went away and did that andit was probably, I'm sure, I
made like loads and loads ofmistakes, but just the process
of doing it really, really helps.
And then it from that the miststarted to clear a little bit.
But it was just kind of gettingon that path of figuring out
(05:23):
how just some basics really.
And you did.
You start some transcribingyourself.
Then I did yeah, yeah, I just started transcribing stuff
myself and, like you know,probably stuff that I was way
too hard, but a bit of LeeMorgan and Clifford Brown and
yeah, and you know I couldn't, Iprobably couldn't play.
I'm sure I couldn't play at all, but it was I could play at all
(05:45):
, but I could play some of it.
And then you start, I don'tknow, you start putting licks in
different places and I kind offelt, after doing that, I kind
of started feeling fairlynatural because I listened a lot
.
That was the thing I used tolisten to jazz all day long.
So, I think that was my savinggrace.
Really.
That's why I was never really avery good classical player,
because I didn't really listento enough of it for it to seep
(06:06):
in.
Geoff (06:06):
I remember the first time I met you.
You probably don't remember,but you were at the Academy and
I was a teacher there at thetime.
I remember assessing a classthat you were in.
I did, yeah, and your year atthe Academy was a really strong
year.
Steve (06:20):
There was a.
Geoff (06:20):
Rando.
Fleming.
Tom Cawley.
Gareth Lock rane.
Gareth Lock rane.
Osian Roberts, Osian Roberts.
Yeah, my brother, yeah, andyour brother.
I mean, it was a great year,wasn't?
Steve (06:31):
it.
Yeah, we were lucky to be inthat year.
Yeah, it was a very strong year.
Geoff (06:34):
The thing I remember about that is it was a Wayne
Shorter project.
Steve (06:37):
Oh right, You're all playing Wayne Shorter music.
Brilliant, it was reallywhether it was a third, maybe it
was a third year or so, I don'tremember, but it was a really
high level.
I'm pretty sure I didn't knowwhat was going on in the music.
Geoff (06:50):
Yeah, didn't sound like got away with it, maybe.
Yeah, yeah, so that would havebeen the 90s, right?
So you moved into 94 to 98.
Steve (06:57):
Yep, yeah, we were at the Academy.
Yeah, right, how was thatexperience?
Yeah, it was great.
I mean it was.
I think it's a lot differentback then to how it is now.
You know, all those people thatyou mentioned.
I think like learning as muchfrom being around people, like
that, you know, and kind oflearning together.
Yeah, I think we all learned ahell of a lot from each other,
(07:17):
as well as from teachers as well, but it was, um, yeah, it was a
great experience and coming toLondon and stuff.
I really took it for granted atthe time, but in the first year
we were living me and mybrother were living at student
accommodation just behind theAcademy, so we walked to Ronnie
Scott's and stayed there allnight and then walked home,
that's amazing, you know, go andsee like Cedar Walton or Elvin
(07:39):
Jones or someone you know whatit was like.
Geoff (07:41):
And in those days I mean Ronnie Scott's it was like a
pound to get in, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was ridiculously cheap, yeah, yeah, I mean, that was
the days when you could play fora week there, couldn't you?
Steve (07:50):
Yeah, everyone was playing there for a week or
sometimes two, or sometimes amonth or something.
Yeah, I know, like Airto wouldbe there for a month.
Geoff (07:57):
Did you start to run your own band around that time?
Steve (08:06):
At some point I started writing quite a lot of music and
stuff and that was kind of agood learning process.
But I didn't really start myown bands.
I mean I guess I had my ownbands, but I never I did.
When I was at college I neverreally did any gigs.
I didn't really feel in a rushto like put a CD out or like to
be out doing loads of gigs andstuff.
It felt a bit more relaxed,like nowadays everybody is like
they got it, like doing now now.
Now.
Now, you know, because there's,I guess, way more competition,
(08:27):
probably a lot harder.
But you were working well, youwere doing not, not when I was
at college.
No, I mean I, I, when I leftcollege it was, um, I mean I was
lucky because my brother wasdoing quite a lot of gigs by the
time he left, uh.
So I used to kind of go to hisgigs and sit in and stuff, and
that that's how I met a lot ofpeople really, and from that I
started kind of slowly buildingup work from that.
(08:51):
So, thanks, Matt,
Geoff (08:52):
People who don't know you .
You're twins, aren't you?
We are twins yeah.
Are you identical twins?
Yeah.
I know all about twins andtwins myself.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you have a special twinthing when you play together?
Do you have a special twinthing when you play together, do
youfeel anything special when
you're playing with your brother.
Steve (09:06):
I mean, I don't know if it's like some telepathy thing,
but it's just like we've heard alot of the same music and kind
of grown up.
You know listening Interactionhappens that way because there's
like a communication there.
Geoff (09:18):
What about teaching?
At what point did that become apart of your life?
Did you enjoy teaching?
Steve (09:28):
I mean, I take it seriously.
I take it very, very seriouslyand I do feel like, as a teacher
, if you're going to teachsomebody, you have a commitment
to those students.
I feel like I have to do mybest for them.
You know they're relying on you, you know, to help them.
So I do take it very seriouslyand I've thought a lot about it
since I started teaching.
Whereabouts do you teach now?
Well, mainly at LeedsConservatoire, but I teach at
(09:50):
Trinity and a tiny bit at theAcademy and at Birmingham and a
tiny, tiny bit at The Guildhall.
Geoff (09:56):
Do you do a lot of preparation for students.
Steve (09:59):
Now, because I've been doing it for like 12 years, I've
got a lot of resources, youknow, on the computer or
whatever.
So it's kind of I have to doless, but I still think about it
a lot and think about, likecertain students, and what the
best approach might be and stufflike that, and also I think
with my own struggles with theinstrument and stuff and trying
(10:20):
to overcome those things.
I feel like I've had probablyevery problem going like with
the trumpet, like embouchurechanges and, you know, issues
with breathing and you know allthis kind of stuff.
So somehow like overcome it andfound a way, you know, figure it
out by asking people that youcome across asking different,
either either people that I'mplaying with or people that you
(10:42):
know, American musicians, orwhoever people you know,
American musicians, or whoeverpeople that you respect, or
older musicians or whoever youknow, even sometimes people
younger you know.
Geoff (10:52):
What's some of the best advice that you've got about the
trumpet?
Steve (10:55):
The best advice about the trumpet.
I did some gigs with Lew Soloffyears ago with a big band, with
Pete Long's big band, gpie Arnait was called playing the music
of Dizzy Gillespie and he kindof took me aside and told me
some stuff and I kind of pickedhis brains and just in about an
hour or something ofconversation with him and he was
(11:17):
like he gave me so muchinformation in that hour, yeah,
that I went away andinvestigated what's like?
Like what Really yeah that Iwent away and investigated.
Geoff (11:23):
Like what, what sort of information?
Steve (11:25):
Well, he told me he gave me like one breathing exercise.
But he told me about thisSchool of Brass teaching from
the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
This guy called Arnold Jacobs,who was a tuba player.
He was an expert in breathingand I went and bought the book
and got pretty obsessed with itall.
Actually, and bought all thesebreathing devices and stuff like
(11:46):
that.
Geoff (11:47):
Breathing devices.
What's that?
Yeah?
Steve (11:48):
Like stuff that you use to kind of take your brain away
from what you're doing with yourrespiratory system,
physiologically, so that you canjust do what it's designed to
do without your brain getting inthe way.
Wow, just like little simplethings, like a little plastic
chamber with a ping ping pongball inside it and when you
breathe you're supposed to keepthe ping pong ball at the top of
(12:09):
the chamber and not let it Tokeep a constant breath Yeah,
like an inhalation andexhalation, yeah, things like
that.
And one of the things he saidwas you know, you can criticize
anybody on any instrument, butwhy?
Why would you do that?
Everybody's got their strongpoints and everybody does
something well, he said he couldcriticize Wynton Marsalis or he
(12:30):
could criticize whoever youknow, but what?
What's?
What's the point?
He was basically saying, like,look on the positive side of
everybody's playing.
And the other thing was he justsaid don't get up every day and
think it's a competition.
Don't try and play better thananybody else.
You get up every day and thinkit's a competition.
Don't try and play better thananybody else.
You get up every day and youplay this thing to the best of
your ability because you love toplay it, and that's the reason
(12:52):
why you should be doing it.
Yeah, and I thought that waskind of sage advice really.
Geoff (12:57):
It's funny you should say that because I I started
playing guitar in in lockdown.
I feel exactly the same wayabout that.
Actually, I just get up and Ihave no desire to go and do gigs
or anything like that.
I just want to get better andjust the joy of playing it.
Do you feel like that about thetrumpet?
Steve (13:12):
I would happily sit at home and practice trumpet every
day.
I mean, I guess at some point Iwould get frustrated because I
want to go and do a gig.
Geoff (13:20):
I love sitting at home and practicing, just the joy of
making music.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, yeah, fantastic.
And now you have something topractice with, right.
Steve (13:31):
That is very true, you've just bought an iPad.
So you know my early days oftrying to learn how to improvise
and stuff with the Jamey.
I mean, there was nothing likethis around.
Geoff (13:40):
The closest thing was a Jamey Aebersold but you would
have to spend an absolutefortune to buy that many Jamey
Aebersold play along records, Iknow, so of course we're talking
about the Quartet apps, ofcourse, for anyone who doesn't
know, so any particular tunesyou like.
Steve (13:57):
Well, the only one I can really think of is Stella by
Starlight.
Sure all right, Right so you'regoing to play two choruses and
(14:30):
you're going to improvise on twochoruses of Stella by Starlight
.
Do do uh.
Geoff (16:06):
Oh yeah, something like that Great, Does it feel
natural to play with that track?
Steve (16:13):
Good, I like the way it went from two into four there.
Yeah, of course it's a band.
Yeah, but if you play it on agig or something or a jam
session without naming the otherapp that you play along with,
yeah, I mean, you're not goingto get that on iReal, so it's
things like that.
Just little details like that.
Geoff (16:32):
Yeah yeah, yeah, on most of these standards you'll find
that.
So you probably remember thisfrom the recording session.
So first chorus is in two-feeland the second chorus is in
four-feel, which is kind of likegoing up through the gears,
isn't it?
Yeah, exactly.
And then if is two.
So which kind of feels natural?
Because it wouldn't kind ofnaturally go back to two.
Steve (16:52):
You could loop the first one as well, right?
Geoff (16:53):
You could?
Yeah, yeah, you could.
Steve (16:54):
So you could like practice playing in two and
practice playing in four, whichis great Sure yeah,
Geoff (17:03):
Let's talk about Stella by Starlight for a minute.
It's just an B flat, isn't it?
But the first chord is E, halfdiminished.
Steve (17:09):
Apparently, the original B flat diminished is the first
chord.
Geoff (17:13):
Yeah, I remember hearing the original version.
Actually it's from a movie,isn't it?
Steve (17:17):
Actually the harmony is very different.
I don't know why thesestandards like where they come
from.
I think a lot of them are whatthe chords that Miles plays.
Geoff (17:24):
It's the Miles effect, isn't it?
Steve (17:30):
When he played standard, he kind of bastardised a lot of
changes, didn't he?
Geoff (17:32):
Absolutely yeah.
Yeah, there's only particularthings that you were thinking of
when you were playing that?
Steve (17:39):
Other than like the odd thing about you know where's the
next cadence going or whatever.
You know just little things likethat
Geoff (17:45):
Do you tend to think in in um full cadences, like two,
five, one, or do you think of?
Do you separate the fives fromthe ones, or how do you?
Steve (17:53):
I think it's a good idea, or, for me, I find it helpful
to think about the same thing inmaybe two or three different
ways, so like, for example, thatfirst 2-5 or even those
descending 2-5s at the end, like, like you just said, you can,
you can think of it like a twofive, so you can play the two
(18:14):
chord, then the five, or you canjust think of the dominant and
just play like one big dominantyeah you know, I think I played
like some triad pairs on thedominant or something, or you
can play it like a scale.
Show me what the pairs were onthe A7 there.
So you've got my A7.
In concert I'd be playing an Aaugmented and the other major
(18:37):
triad, that's a triad turnedaway, so E flat, so A augmented
and E flat In B flat.
For B flat instruments I'd beplaying B and F.
So I'd be going like this, I'dgo through the inversion, so
(19:11):
like this, but I go through theinversion.
You know, it's like an Aaltered.
Geoff (19:16):
Yeah, nice, sounds like jazz already, doesn't
it.
Just by putting those triadstogether.
Steve (19:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Geoff (19:21):
Are you a particular fan of using licks?
Steve (19:28):
Yeah, like stole loads and loads of vocabulary in licks
and stuff.
Yeah, and there was a pointwhere I was stealing licks and
trying to fit them in.
I mean I don't do that so muchanymore, but it was definitely a
huge, important learning curve.
But really I'm just trying tonot think of anything other than
the melody, the solo andhearing stuff in my head and
(19:49):
then just trying to do that inreal time, trying to play it
Geoff (19:52):
If someone were to say to you can you play like Lee
Morgan or can you play likeDizzy Gillespie?
Would there be certain thingsthat you would play that would
indicate the style of thosetrumpet players?
Steve (20:03):
Yeah, I mean there's certain people that I've studied
a lot and sometimes it can kindof depend on the type of tune.
You know, if I I was playing aKenny Wheeler tune, for example,
it'd be hard to sound like LeeMorgan.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, but if it's like ashuffle blues, then it's a lot
easier to kind of like get intothat you know, into that kind of
mindset, right.
(20:24):
But yeah, yeah, there is certain, if the tune kind of calls for
that, yeah, I can definitelylike turn on like a Blue
Mitchell thing or or a LeeMorgan or Kenny Dorham well, I
know.
Geoff (20:34):
I know um Lee Morgan, for example.
There's lots of twiddles,aren't there?
Steve (20:38):
like effects and half valve smears and false fingering
and stuff.
Geoff (20:43):
Yeah, that's kind of tricks can you show us a couple
of those, if you get?
Steve (20:45):
I mean he did things like you know.
He kind of like tongue-in'slike you know, kind of do things
like you know, things like that, or you go, you know this kind
of like a lot of kind of bluesystuff or, um, like So you're
talking about Lee Morgan, right?
Yeah, I'm talking about LeeMorgan, yeah, yeah, this kind of
(21:07):
stuff.
You do things like that.
He kind of like had a shoutingkind of style.
You know, very outgoing kind ofsounded like.
He was like an outgoing kind ofpersonality, which for me it
was, I'm more of an introvert,so it was like, but I think it
was good for me to kind of studythat study his playing and
(21:28):
really try to, even though itwas kind of uncomfortable at
first, it was good for me tokind of study that, study his
playing, and really try to, eventhough it was kind of
uncomfortable at first, it wasgood for me to kind of do that
sometimes I get students I thinkI stole this idea from um might
be from Dave Lehman or someoneto kind of for them to get you
know if they get really into onething like lee konitz or
something, or then try and getthem to transcribe somebody
who's like completely differentto the way they play, because
(21:50):
they'redefinitely gonna get
Geoff (21:51):
Here's a slightly odd question, but do you think it's
difficult for an introvert toactually get out and play solos?
Being a soloist is a veryextrovert kind of thing to do,
really isn't it?
Steve (22:01):
it is, yeah, yeah, I mean , even now I kind of find it a
bit difficult.
Uh, I mean, I love playing somuch that that's the overriding
thing, like I love getting witha band and playing music.
I don't think I'm really one ofthose people that likes to be
centre of attention
Geoff (22:19):
Which is maybe why you don't lead your own band so much
, because that takes a lot ofballs doesn't it to stand up and
run your own band?
I know what it's like.
I used to struggle as well.
I used to run your own band.
I know what it's like, I mean.
Steve (22:31):
I used to struggle as well.
I used to run my own band aswell.
Yeah, I don't like that aspectof it so much, but a lot of the
reason why I do it is just forthe music and the joy of playing
.
Geoff (22:49):
All right, I've got a few questions just to finish off
which I ask everybody, and thefirst question is what's your
favourite album?
That's impossible.
When I ask you that question,first thing that comes to your
mind.
Steve (22:59):
I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is like
Kind of Blue or something.
Yeah, because I mean it'sprobably The album.
But that's such a boring answer, isn't it?
Geoff (23:06):
Yeah, but it was influential on so many people.
I mean, everyone says that whatabout on a technical level?
Was there things that youstudied, that you transcribed a
lot?
Steve (23:15):
I think there's certain solos.
I think like the Moanin solo,Lee Morgan on that Art Blakey
album.
Geoff (23:22):
They're kind of legendary , those albums, aren't they?
Yeah?
Steve (23:25):
Like all that stuff I don't know.
I mean, you know it sounds likethat's all I listen to, is like
old stuff and I guess that's mymain influences are all like
the greats.
But I do listen to morecontemporary stuff too and try
and keep abreast of what's goingon now.
But I do think it's importantfor people to at least know the
(23:46):
history of their instrument.
You know the trumpet and knowwell from Louis Armstrong.
I mean, I'm not a LouisArmstrong expert but I do love
to listen to Louis Armstrong andBix Beider beck and like on,
you know, through the swing era.
Geoff (23:58):
Have you ever transcribed or studied that stuff, early
stuff.
Steve (24:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's people that can do it
really really well, like PeteHorsfall, and Miguel Gorodi
sounds amazing at it.
And there's this young guy,Lewis Taylor, who's like it's
just his natural I am withbebop.
He's like that with like thatkind of swing to bebop style and
it just sounds authentic.
Geoff (24:22):
I was with Pete Horsfall last week.
Actually he played on mylibrary thing which was an early
jazz thing you know, and I waswatching him and I was thinking
about that, because it's thevibrato, isn't?
Steve (24:33):
it.
Yeah, like a different sound,like a shake.
Almost it's a little shake,yeah.
Geoff (24:37):
That comes from the lips, doesn't it?
But physically, moving theinstrument around.
Steve (24:40):
People do it different ways.
I mean the old school way ofdoing it is like, yeah, like
actually shaking the instrument,and some people did it with
their lips.
I think it's not something thatI, that style, I don't feel
comfortable with.
I always feel like I'm fakingit.
It doesn't feel like it's mynatural, Although I love
listening to it and I lovehearing people do it, and it
(25:01):
always really impresses me whenI hear people do it really well.
You know.
Geoff (25:06):
So the second question is is there a favourite musician,
alive or dead, that you wouldlike to play with?
Steve (25:12):
Yeah, loads, loads of them.
Yeah, I don't know if I canname one.
I mean, there's a whole load oftrumpet players I wish I'd have
seen live.
Like you know all the ones Imentioned, Blue Mitchell, I mean
, you know, I would love to haveplayed with McCoy Tyner,
because I think that he couldplay any style.
(25:33):
He could play bebop, he couldplay just straight down the line
blues, he could play like modal, he could kind of go in any
direction, and I mean it wouldbe absolutely terrifying to play
with him.
But I feel like, no matter whatyou would do, he would just
kind of be help and support youwith you.
Geoff (25:51):
Yeah, so so has there been a highlight of your career
so far?
Steve (25:55):
Well, yeah, I mean there's been high points.
Yeah, I mean I played withAnita O'Day a little bit in
London and in New York.
You know, I got to meet BobCranshaw and play with him a
little bit and my brother would.
he lived in New York for awhile and he was kind of
mentored by Bob, so I got tokind of play with him a little
bit.
My brother lived in New Yorkfor a while and he was mentored
by Bob, so we got to play withhim a little bit and hang out
with him.
We recorded with Cedar Waltonand Peter Washington.
(26:18):
I can't really believe that wehad the courage to approach him
and stuff, but that was amazing.
Geoff (26:25):
How did that affect your playing and your attitude?
Did you raise your game tomatch theirs?
Steve (26:30):
Well, it's funny, I don't sit and listen to my own
recordings very much, but I didput it on the other day.
I don't know why someone wastalking about it or something.
I thought I'd check it out andI was pleasantly surprised.
I mean, I wish I could go backand do it again now, you know,
because I think I play much,much better.
Geoff (26:47):
What's the name of the album?
Steve (26:48):
It's called the Osian Roberts Steve Fishwick Quintet
meets Cedar Walton.
I mean, it's on YouTube andSpotify.
Where did you do it?
In London?
No, in New York at Nola'sPenthouse Studios.
What an experience.
I did a couple of tours withHod O'Brien, who's kind of a
lesser-known bebop piano player,but he replaced Bill Evans in
(27:09):
the Oscar Pettiford Band in the50s and that that was amazing.
He was like the nicest guy onthe planet and an incredible
piano player.
Played with the WDR Big Band afew times with people like Ron
Carter and Jimmy Heath and PeterErskine and Dick Oats and
Terell Stafford
Geoff (27:28):
Wow, you've done some great things.
Steve (27:30):
So it was you know, things like that that are, I
mean, so lucky you know, yeah,like some definite highlights.
Geoff (27:36):
Amazing.
What was the last concert youattended?
Steve (27:40):
I've been going to quite a lot of classical music
concerts.
Recently I think I went to seethe London Philharmonic and they
played the Alban Berg Concertoand then they did a Brahms
Symphony.
But I thought I was going toenjoy the Berg more than the
Brahms, but it was the other wayaround.
Geoff (27:58):
It's funny, sometimes.
Those Brahms symphonies are somelodic, aren't they?
Steve (28:02):
Yeah, and they played it so well as well.
They just played the hell outof the Brahms.
Where did you see that?
It was at the World Festival.
Nice.
Geoff (28:10):
What would you say is your musical weakness?
Steve (28:12):
Like I was saying before, like you know people who can
play like an early style I wishI could kind of do that.
And also I'm not that great atplaying lead trumpet.
You know there's kind of like anew generation of guys like Tom
Walsh and James Coperton peopleand Jim Davidson who can kind
of do both.
They can play really good jazzand they can play really great
(28:33):
lead as well and I kind of wishI could.
I've got better at it.
I can kind of fake it, but it's, it doesn't come naturally to
me.
No, I've much prefer sittingthere third or fourth and
following somebody else ratherthan like the guy who's leading
the whole.
Geoff (28:48):
Yeah, Do you ever get nervous on stage?
Steve (28:51):
It's rare but yeah sometimes.
But I think if I do get nervousit's more like good nerves.
It's more excitement thannerves.
Geoff (29:01):
Yeah yeah, what's your favourite sandwich,
Steve (29:06):
My favourite sandwich.
Well, you can't beat a baconsandwich, can you,
Geoff (29:10):
you can't no.
What about a favourite movie?
Do you watch many?
Steve (29:14):
You I used to watch loads , yeah, but I don't so much
anymore.
But the last one I watched whenDavid Lynch died, I kind of
went on a bit of a mission tosee the ones I hadn't seen and I
watched.
What's that one about?
That jazz saxophone playerSomeone?
(29:35):
breaks into his house and theytake videos of him and his wife
sleeping I don't think I've seenthat one and then they post the
video to them through themailbox and they're watching it
and it obviously really freaksthem out and it gets really
really weird.
But it was quite player,? one.
It was quite a good one.
Cool.
The music's not very good in it, though.
Geoff (29:51):
What's your favorite venue to play in?
Steve (29:52):
Just give me a like a kind of a filthy jazz club
somewhere into some basement,somewhere you know that's
relaxed and not not uptight andnot not you know I'm not.
I'm not that bothered aboutplaying some super prestigious
place.
I mean, it's nice to play inplaces that are respected and
stuff, but I'm quite happy justplaying in some basement
somewhere.
Geoff (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
What about a favourite countryor a favourite city to?
Steve (30:15):
visit.
I mean New York's like theobvious choice, but then with
all the stuff going on inAmerica and stuff, I'm not
really.
I've got friends there.
It's been a while since I'vebeen, but it's just an exciting
place, isn't it?
I mean I like Germany place,isn't it?
I mean, I like Germany, I'm notso keen on Berlin.
I like Munich and I like Hollandtoo.
I always like coming here.
Yeah, I've not been to Hollandvery much.
Geoff (30:35):
We're going to Amsterdam tomorrow so yeah, that'll be,
that's a great city, you know?
One last question, and it iswhat's your favorite
chord,
Steve (30:48):
But it depends where it's going, though, like what's
before in the context.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Like when I write music thesedays I kind of use that, yeah,
like a minor seven chord butwith a with a flat six.
I mean, you know it's in thescale of just like a natural
minor.
But if you put, actually putlike the nine and the flat six
(31:08):
in there with the, with the,with the third and the seventh,
yeah it can sound pretty coolyeah, okay, do you play piano?
yeah right, I mean not very welllike composers.
Yeah, so you've studied sort ofharmony on piano and voicings
and so on yeah, yeah, I meanit's one of those things that I
wish I had more time to sit downand really practice, but but
yeah, yeah, I mean I kind ofknow what I want to play, but
(31:30):
but I just can't do it in timewith a band, you know.
But I can sit there and I can,you know.
Geoff (31:36):
That's the good thing about composing you can do it
everything in slow motion.
Steve (31:39):
Yeah exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Geoff (31:40):
Thanks for your time, steve.
No worries, looking forward toplaying with Matt Bianco again
this evening.
Steve (31:51):
It'll be Bye.
Great, it's fun.
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Quartet.
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in Holland, actually.
I'm part of the way through atour.
I've taken this advantage totalk to an old friend, Steve
(00:23):
Fishwick, the trumpet aboutbebop, about influences and
loads of other stuff like that.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:50):
T he Quartet jazz standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.
Geoff (00:53):
Hi Steve, how are you today
Steve (00:55):
Pretty good.
Geoff (00:56):
Can you just tell me a bit about how you got started,
what your um influences were andhow you first started
improvising?
Steve (01:02):
I guess it's the usual story.
You know, started playingtrumpet when I was eight at
school and free lessons andstuff and I had a really great
teacher.
He was great because hisenthusiasm was really, really
great and he was reallyinfectious, you know so.
Makes a difference that doesn'tit Massively?
Yeah, and he was.
He was just really curiousabout music but it was kind of
(01:25):
strictly classical lessons.
I think he used to play with aHallé Orchestra but by the time
I started studying with him hewas kind of at the end of his
career, I guess, and he was justteaching, but he hadn't lost
any of his enthusiasm for music.
You know, strictly classicallessons, and he took me through
my grades and stuff like that.
Uh, yeah, I guess I've startedgetting into jazz when I was
(01:48):
about 13, so I started playingwhen I was eight and then by the
time I was about 12, 13 orsomething, it was the time of
the.
You know, the late 80s, early90s was the uh, jazz boom in the
UK and when I talked to mystudents about it these days
they look at me like I'm crazy.
But I mean, you'll remember,you know how it was everywhere.
It was all over the media andin the newspapers, on the TV all
(02:11):
the time Courtney Pine andTommy Smith and the Jazz
Warriors and Andy Sheppard andyou know it was.
It was like a hit, fashionablething.
They were kind of showing stuffon the TV like old Jazz 65s and
there's a bunch ofdocumentaries on the BBC about
Winton Marsalis and it was justlike, wow, what is this?
(02:32):
this music, jazz, you know, andthey're making it up, they're
improvising.
How are they doing that?
I was just curious about it.
You know a lot of classical,especially at that time a lot of
classical players would kind oflook down on jazz and kind of,
oh no, especially trumpetteachers, that, oh, you don't
want to mess with jazz, it'llmess up your sound or whatever,
it'll mess up your.
He was just as enthusiasticabout it and curious about it
(02:55):
and, as as we were, you know mybrother as well because my
brother's a drummer.
He was getting into it too.
But I remember going to hearDizzy Gillespie at the Free
Trade Hall and my, my teacherwas Manchester right yeah,
that's where you grew up inManchester, my teacher.
His name was John Crosdale.
He was at the concert as welland, uh, in the next lesson, a
couple of days later, he broughtthe program from the concert
(03:19):
and it'd been signed by DizzyGillespie and Arturo Sandoval,
and he'd gone backstage and likechatted to Arturo and Dizzy
about trumpet and stuff and hereally gave us the program to
keep you know oh that's nice.
Yeah, he's a great guy.
Geoff (03:34):
So how did you start improvising then?
What was your first steps?
Steve (03:37):
Oh gosh, it was just like groping in the dark.
I guess there were summerschools, like Wavendo n Summer
School and we kind of found outabout that and went on that and
stuff.
And there was a record shopcalled Decoy Records in
Manchester and that was reallygreat.
It was a really, really goodrecord shop.
So we used to go there andspend all our money there and
get a bunch of records andlisten to them over and over and
(03:59):
then go back a few months laterand get more.
But actually playing.
I remember like sending off touh, Jazz wise catalog e for just
like books like Jamey Aebersold playalongs and stuff like
that and you know, trying todecipher the scales.
Remember they used to write thescales out yeah, they had the
scale syllabus, wasn't it?
Geoff (04:18):
all these written modes and stuff, yeah as well, yeah
but they used to write out thescales.
Steve (04:23):
They had the chords written out and then they'd
write out the scales and stuff.
And it was trying to, you know,trying to decipher that and it
was.
It just wasn't really workingbecause like a dictionary,
wasn't it?
Or something you just end uplike going up and down the
scales, and it doesn't soundvery good, you know.
And then, you could kind ofgradually piece it together.
And I remember going toWavenden and just asking people
questions.
I remember a couple of lightbulb moments where, like I
(04:44):
remember going to Wavenden andjust asking people questions.
I remember a couple of lightbulb moments where, like I
remember going to Jim Tomlinsonat the end of a class and asking
him like what should I do, whatshould I practice?
And he just told me to likearpeggiate the chords in time so
that I could kind of get themin my brain and that really,
really helps.
Geoff (05:01):
Yeah.
Steve (05:03):
And the other one was Steve Waterman, just showing me
all these transcriptions thathe'd done himself like written
down.
So I went away and did that andit was probably, I'm sure, I
made like loads and loads ofmistakes, but just the process
of doing it really, really helps.
And then it from that the miststarted to clear a little bit.
But it was just kind of gettingon that path of figuring out
(05:23):
how just some basics really.
And you did.
You start some transcribingyourself.
Then I did yeah, yeah, I just started transcribing stuff
myself and, like you know,probably stuff that I was way
too hard, but a bit of LeeMorgan and Clifford Brown and
yeah, and you know I couldn't, Iprobably couldn't play.
I'm sure I couldn't play at all, but it was I could play at all
(05:45):
, but I could play some of it.
And then you start, I don'tknow, you start putting licks in
different places and I kind offelt, after doing that, I kind
of started feeling fairlynatural because I listened a lot
.
That was the thing I used tolisten to jazz all day long.
So, I think that was my savinggrace.
Really.
That's why I was never really avery good classical player,
because I didn't really listento enough of it for it to seep
(06:06):
in.
Geoff (06:06):
I remember the first time I met you.
You probably don't remember,but you were at the Academy and
I was a teacher there at thetime.
I remember assessing a classthat you were in.
I did, yeah, and your year atthe Academy was a really strong
year.
Steve (06:20):
There was a.
Geoff (06:20):
Rando.
Fleming.
Tom Cawley.
Gareth Lock rane.
Gareth Lock rane.
Osian Roberts, Osian Roberts.
Yeah, my brother, yeah, andyour brother.
I mean, it was a great year,wasn't?
Steve (06:31):
it.
Yeah, we were lucky to be inthat year.
Yeah, it was a very strong year.
Geoff (06:34):
The thing I remember about that is it was a Wayne
Shorter project.
Steve (06:37):
Oh right, You're all playing Wayne Shorter music.
Brilliant, it was reallywhether it was a third, maybe it
was a third year or so, I don'tremember, but it was a really
high level.
I'm pretty sure I didn't knowwhat was going on in the music.
Geoff (06:50):
Yeah, didn't sound like got away with it, maybe.
Yeah, yeah, so that would havebeen the 90s, right?
So you moved into 94 to 98.
Steve (06:57):
Yep, yeah, we were at the Academy.
Yeah, right, how was thatexperience?
Yeah, it was great.
I mean it was.
I think it's a lot differentback then to how it is now.
You know, all those people thatyou mentioned.
I think like learning as muchfrom being around people, like
that, you know, and kind oflearning together.
Yeah, I think we all learned ahell of a lot from each other,
(07:17):
as well as from teachers as well, but it was, um, yeah, it was a
great experience and coming toLondon and stuff.
I really took it for granted atthe time, but in the first year
we were living me and mybrother were living at student
accommodation just behind theAcademy, so we walked to Ronnie
Scott's and stayed there allnight and then walked home,
that's amazing, you know, go andsee like Cedar Walton or Elvin
(07:39):
Jones or someone you know whatit was like.
Geoff (07:41):
And in those days I mean Ronnie Scott's it was like a
pound to get in, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was ridiculously cheap, yeah, yeah, I mean, that was
the days when you could play fora week there, couldn't you?
Steve (07:50):
Yeah, everyone was playing there for a week or
sometimes two, or sometimes amonth or something.
Yeah, I know, like Airto wouldbe there for a month.
Geoff (07:57):
Did you start to run your own band around that time?
Steve (08:06):
At some point I started writing quite a lot of music and
stuff and that was kind of agood learning process.
But I didn't really start myown bands.
I mean I guess I had my ownbands, but I never I did.
When I was at college I neverreally did any gigs.
I didn't really feel in a rushto like put a CD out or like to
be out doing loads of gigs andstuff.
It felt a bit more relaxed,like nowadays everybody is like
they got it, like doing now now.
Now.
Now, you know, because there's,I guess, way more competition,
(08:27):
probably a lot harder.
But you were working well, youwere doing not, not when I was
at college.
No, I mean I, I, when I leftcollege it was, um, I mean I was
lucky because my brother wasdoing quite a lot of gigs by the
time he left, uh.
So I used to kind of go to hisgigs and sit in and stuff, and
that that's how I met a lot ofpeople really, and from that I
started kind of slowly buildingup work from that.
(08:51):
So, thanks, Matt,
Geoff (08:52):
People who don't know you .
You're twins, aren't you?
We are twins yeah.
Are you identical twins?
Yeah.
I know all about twins andtwins myself.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you have a special twinthing when you play together?
Do you have a special twinthing when you play together, do
youfeel anything special when
you're playing with your brother.
Steve (09:06):
I mean, I don't know if it's like some telepathy thing,
but it's just like we've heard alot of the same music and kind
of grown up.
You know listening Interactionhappens that way because there's
like a communication there.
Geoff (09:18):
What about teaching?
At what point did that become apart of your life?
Did you enjoy teaching?
Steve (09:28):
I mean, I take it seriously.
I take it very, very seriouslyand I do feel like, as a teacher
, if you're going to teachsomebody, you have a commitment
to those students.
I feel like I have to do mybest for them.
You know they're relying on you, you know, to help them.
So I do take it very seriouslyand I've thought a lot about it
since I started teaching.
Whereabouts do you teach now?
Well, mainly at LeedsConservatoire, but I teach at
(09:50):
Trinity and a tiny bit at theAcademy and at Birmingham and a
tiny, tiny bit at The Guildhall.
Geoff (09:56):
Do you do a lot of preparation for students.
Steve (09:59):
Now, because I've been doing it for like 12 years, I've
got a lot of resources, youknow, on the computer or
whatever.
So it's kind of I have to doless, but I still think about it
a lot and think about, likecertain students, and what the
best approach might be and stufflike that, and also I think
with my own struggles with theinstrument and stuff and trying
(10:20):
to overcome those things.
I feel like I've had probablyevery problem going like with
the trumpet, like embouchurechanges and, you know, issues
with breathing and you know allthis kind of stuff.
So somehow like overcome it andfound a way, you know, figure it
out by asking people that youcome across asking different,
either either people that I'mplaying with or people that you
(10:42):
know, American musicians, orwhoever people you know,
American musicians, or whoeverpeople that you respect, or
older musicians or whoever youknow, even sometimes people
younger you know.
Geoff (10:52):
What's some of the best advice that you've got about the
trumpet?
Steve (10:55):
The best advice about the trumpet.
I did some gigs with Lew Soloffyears ago with a big band, with
Pete Long's big band, gpie Arnait was called playing the music
of Dizzy Gillespie and he kindof took me aside and told me
some stuff and I kind of pickedhis brains and just in about an
hour or something ofconversation with him and he was
(11:17):
like he gave me so muchinformation in that hour, yeah,
that I went away andinvestigated what's like?
Like what Really yeah that Iwent away and investigated.
Geoff (11:23):
Like what, what sort of information?
Steve (11:25):
Well, he told me he gave me like one breathing exercise.
But he told me about thisSchool of Brass teaching from
the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
This guy called Arnold Jacobs,who was a tuba player.
He was an expert in breathingand I went and bought the book
and got pretty obsessed with itall.
Actually, and bought all thesebreathing devices and stuff like
(11:46):
that.
Geoff (11:47):
Breathing devices.
What's that?
Yeah?
Steve (11:48):
Like stuff that you use to kind of take your brain away
from what you're doing with yourrespiratory system,
physiologically, so that you canjust do what it's designed to
do without your brain getting inthe way.
Wow, just like little simplethings, like a little plastic
chamber with a ping ping pongball inside it and when you
breathe you're supposed to keepthe ping pong ball at the top of
(12:09):
the chamber and not let it Tokeep a constant breath Yeah,
like an inhalation andexhalation, yeah, things like
that.
And one of the things he saidwas you know, you can criticize
anybody on any instrument, butwhy?
Why would you do that?
Everybody's got their strongpoints and everybody does
something well, he said he couldcriticize Wynton Marsalis or he
(12:30):
could criticize whoever youknow, but what?
What's?
What's the point?
He was basically saying, like,look on the positive side of
everybody's playing.
And the other thing was he justsaid don't get up every day and
think it's a competition.
Don't try and play better thananybody else.
You get up every day and thinkit's a competition.
Don't try and play better thananybody else.
You get up every day and youplay this thing to the best of
your ability because you love toplay it, and that's the reason
(12:52):
why you should be doing it.
Yeah, and I thought that waskind of sage advice really.
Geoff (12:57):
It's funny you should say that because I I started
playing guitar in in lockdown.
I feel exactly the same wayabout that.
Actually, I just get up and Ihave no desire to go and do gigs
or anything like that.
I just want to get better andjust the joy of playing it.
Do you feel like that about thetrumpet?
Steve (13:12):
I would happily sit at home and practice trumpet every
day.
I mean, I guess at some point Iwould get frustrated because I
want to go and do a gig.
Geoff (13:20):
I love sitting at home and practicing, just the joy of
making music.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, yeah, fantastic.
And now you have something topractice with, right.
Steve (13:31):
That is very true, you've just bought an iPad.
So you know my early days oftrying to learn how to improvise
and stuff with the Jamey.
I mean, there was nothing likethis around.
Geoff (13:40):
The closest thing was a Jamey Aebersold but you would
have to spend an absolutefortune to buy that many Jamey
Aebersold play along records, Iknow, so of course we're talking
about the Quartet apps, ofcourse, for anyone who doesn't
know, so any particular tunesyou like.
Steve (13:57):
Well, the only one I can really think of is Stella by
Starlight.
Sure all right, Right so you'regoing to play two choruses and
(14:30):
you're going to improvise on twochoruses of Stella by Starlight
.
Do do uh.
Geoff (16:06):
Oh yeah, something like that Great, Does it feel
natural to play with that track?
Steve (16:13):
Good, I like the way it went from two into four there.
Yeah, of course it's a band.
Yeah, but if you play it on agig or something or a jam
session without naming the otherapp that you play along with,
yeah, I mean, you're not goingto get that on iReal, so it's
things like that.
Just little details like that.
Geoff (16:32):
Yeah yeah, yeah, on most of these standards you'll find
that.
So you probably remember thisfrom the recording session.
So first chorus is in two-feeland the second chorus is in
four-feel, which is kind of likegoing up through the gears,
isn't it?
Yeah, exactly.
And then if is two.
So which kind of feels natural?
Because it wouldn't kind ofnaturally go back to two.
Steve (16:52):
You could loop the first one as well, right?
Geoff (16:53):
You could?
Yeah, yeah, you could.
Steve (16:54):
So you could like practice playing in two and
practice playing in four, whichis great Sure yeah,
Geoff (17:03):
Let's talk about Stella by Starlight for a minute.
It's just an B flat, isn't it?
But the first chord is E, halfdiminished.
Steve (17:09):
Apparently, the original B flat diminished is the first
chord.
Geoff (17:13):
Yeah, I remember hearing the original version.
Actually it's from a movie,isn't it?
Steve (17:17):
Actually the harmony is very different.
I don't know why thesestandards like where they come
from.
I think a lot of them are whatthe chords that Miles plays.
Geoff (17:24):
It's the Miles effect, isn't it?
Steve (17:30):
When he played standard, he kind of bastardised a lot of
changes, didn't he?
Geoff (17:32):
Absolutely yeah.
Yeah, there's only particularthings that you were thinking of
when you were playing that?
Steve (17:39):
Other than like the odd thing about you know where's the
next cadence going or whatever.
You know just little things likethat
Geoff (17:45):
Do you tend to think in in um full cadences, like two,
five, one, or do you think of?
Do you separate the fives fromthe ones, or how do you?
Steve (17:53):
I think it's a good idea, or, for me, I find it helpful
to think about the same thing inmaybe two or three different
ways, so like, for example, thatfirst 2-5 or even those
descending 2-5s at the end, like, like you just said, you can,
you can think of it like a twofive, so you can play the two
(18:14):
chord, then the five, or you canjust think of the dominant and
just play like one big dominantyeah you know, I think I played
like some triad pairs on thedominant or something, or you
can play it like a scale.
Show me what the pairs were onthe A7 there.
So you've got my A7.
In concert I'd be playing an Aaugmented and the other major
(18:37):
triad, that's a triad turnedaway, so E flat, so A augmented
and E flat In B flat.
For B flat instruments I'd beplaying B and F.
So I'd be going like this, I'dgo through the inversion, so
(19:11):
like this, but I go through theinversion.
You know, it's like an Aaltered.
Geoff (19:16):
Yeah, nice, sounds like jazz already, doesn't
it.
Just by putting those triadstogether.
Steve (19:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Geoff (19:21):
Are you a particular fan of using licks?
Steve (19:28):
Yeah, like stole loads and loads of vocabulary in licks
and stuff.
Yeah, and there was a pointwhere I was stealing licks and
trying to fit them in.
I mean I don't do that so muchanymore, but it was definitely a
huge, important learning curve.
But really I'm just trying tonot think of anything other than
the melody, the solo andhearing stuff in my head and
(19:49):
then just trying to do that inreal time, trying to play it
Geoff (19:52):
If someone were to say to you can you play like Lee
Morgan or can you play likeDizzy Gillespie?
Would there be certain thingsthat you would play that would
indicate the style of thosetrumpet players?
Steve (20:03):
Yeah, I mean there's certain people that I've studied
a lot and sometimes it can kindof depend on the type of tune.
You know, if I I was playing aKenny Wheeler tune, for example,
it'd be hard to sound like LeeMorgan.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, but if it's like ashuffle blues, then it's a lot
easier to kind of like get intothat you know, into that kind of
mindset, right.
(20:24):
But yeah, yeah, there is certain, if the tune kind of calls for
that, yeah, I can definitelylike turn on like a Blue
Mitchell thing or or a LeeMorgan or Kenny Dorham well, I
know.
Geoff (20:34):
I know um Lee Morgan, for example.
There's lots of twiddles,aren't there?
Steve (20:38):
like effects and half valve smears and false fingering
and stuff.
Geoff (20:43):
Yeah, that's kind of tricks can you show us a couple
of those, if you get?
Steve (20:45):
I mean he did things like you know.
He kind of like tongue-in'slike you know, kind of do things
like you know, things like that, or you go, you know this kind
of like a lot of kind of bluesystuff or, um, like So you're
talking about Lee Morgan, right?
Yeah, I'm talking about LeeMorgan, yeah, yeah, this kind of
(21:07):
stuff.
You do things like that.
He kind of like had a shoutingkind of style.
You know, very outgoing kind ofsounded like.
He was like an outgoing kind ofpersonality, which for me it
was, I'm more of an introvert,so it was like, but I think it
was good for me to kind of studythat study his playing and
(21:28):
really try to, even though itwas kind of uncomfortable at
first, it was good for me tokind of study that, study his
playing, and really try to, eventhough it was kind of
uncomfortable at first, it wasgood for me to kind of do that
sometimes I get students I thinkI stole this idea from um might
be from Dave Lehman or someoneto kind of for them to get you
know if they get really into onething like lee konitz or
something, or then try and getthem to transcribe somebody
who's like completely differentto the way they play, because
(21:50):
they'redefinitely gonna get
Geoff (21:51):
Here's a slightly odd question, but do you think it's
difficult for an introvert toactually get out and play solos?
Being a soloist is a veryextrovert kind of thing to do,
really isn't it?
Steve (22:01):
it is, yeah, yeah, I mean , even now I kind of find it a
bit difficult.
Uh, I mean, I love playing somuch that that's the overriding
thing, like I love getting witha band and playing music.
I don't think I'm really one ofthose people that likes to be
centre of attention
Geoff (22:19):
Which is maybe why you don't lead your own band so much
, because that takes a lot ofballs doesn't it to stand up and
run your own band?
I know what it's like.
I used to struggle as well.
I used to run your own band.
I know what it's like, I mean.
Steve (22:31):
I used to struggle as well.
I used to run my own band aswell.
Yeah, I don't like that aspectof it so much, but a lot of the
reason why I do it is just forthe music and the joy of playing
.
Geoff (22:49):
All right, I've got a few questions just to finish off
which I ask everybody, and thefirst question is what's your
favourite album?
That's impossible.
When I ask you that question,first thing that comes to your
mind.
Steve (22:59):
I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is like
Kind of Blue or something.
Yeah, because I mean it'sprobably The album.
But that's such a boring answer, isn't it?
Geoff (23:06):
Yeah, but it was influential on so many people.
I mean, everyone says that whatabout on a technical level?
Was there things that youstudied, that you transcribed a
lot?
Steve (23:15):
I think there's certain solos.
I think like the Moanin solo,Lee Morgan on that Art Blakey
album.
Geoff (23:22):
They're kind of legendary , those albums, aren't they?
Yeah?
Steve (23:25):
Like all that stuff I don't know.
I mean, you know it sounds likethat's all I listen to, is like
old stuff and I guess that's mymain influences are all like
the greats.
But I do listen to morecontemporary stuff too and try
and keep abreast of what's goingon now.
But I do think it's importantfor people to at least know the
(23:46):
history of their instrument.
You know the trumpet and knowwell from Louis Armstrong.
I mean, I'm not a LouisArmstrong expert but I do love
to listen to Louis Armstrong andBix Beider beck and like on,
you know, through the swing era.
Geoff (23:58):
Have you ever transcribed or studied that stuff, early
stuff.
Steve (24:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's people that can do it
really really well, like PeteHorsfall, and Miguel Gorodi
sounds amazing at it.
And there's this young guy,Lewis Taylor, who's like it's
just his natural I am withbebop.
He's like that with like thatkind of swing to bebop style and
it just sounds authentic.
Geoff (24:22):
I was with Pete Horsfall last week.
Actually he played on mylibrary thing which was an early
jazz thing you know, and I waswatching him and I was thinking
about that, because it's thevibrato, isn't?
Steve (24:33):
it.
Yeah, like a different sound,like a shake.
Almost it's a little shake,yeah.
Geoff (24:37):
That comes from the lips, doesn't it?
But physically, moving theinstrument around.
Steve (24:40):
People do it different ways.
I mean the old school way ofdoing it is like, yeah, like
actually shaking the instrument,and some people did it with
their lips.
I think it's not something thatI, that style, I don't feel
comfortable with.
I always feel like I'm fakingit.
It doesn't feel like it's mynatural, Although I love
listening to it and I lovehearing people do it, and it
(25:01):
always really impresses me whenI hear people do it really well.
You know.
Geoff (25:06):
So the second question is is there a favourite musician,
alive or dead, that you wouldlike to play with?
Steve (25:12):
Yeah, loads, loads of them.
Yeah, I don't know if I canname one.
I mean, there's a whole load oftrumpet players I wish I'd have
seen live.
Like you know all the ones Imentioned, Blue Mitchell, I mean
, you know, I would love to haveplayed with McCoy Tyner,
because I think that he couldplay any style.
(25:33):
He could play bebop, he couldplay just straight down the line
blues, he could play like modal, he could kind of go in any
direction, and I mean it wouldbe absolutely terrifying to play
with him.
But I feel like, no matter whatyou would do, he would just
kind of be help and support youwith you.
Geoff (25:51):
Yeah, so so has there been a highlight of your career
so far?
Steve (25:55):
Well, yeah, I mean there's been high points.
Yeah, I mean I played withAnita O'Day a little bit in
London and in New York.
You know, I got to meet BobCranshaw and play with him a
little bit and my brother would.
he lived in New York for awhile and he was kind of
mentored by Bob, so I got tokind of play with him a little
bit.
My brother lived in New Yorkfor a while and he was mentored
by Bob, so we got to play withhim a little bit and hang out
with him.
We recorded with Cedar Waltonand Peter Washington.
(26:18):
I can't really believe that wehad the courage to approach him
and stuff, but that was amazing.
Geoff (26:25):
How did that affect your playing and your attitude?
Did you raise your game tomatch theirs?
Steve (26:30):
Well, it's funny, I don't sit and listen to my own
recordings very much, but I didput it on the other day.
I don't know why someone wastalking about it or something.
I thought I'd check it out andI was pleasantly surprised.
I mean, I wish I could go backand do it again now, you know,
because I think I play much,much better.
Geoff (26:47):
What's the name of the album?
Steve (26:48):
It's called the Osian Roberts Steve Fishwick Quintet
meets Cedar Walton.
I mean, it's on YouTube andSpotify.
Where did you do it?
In London?
No, in New York at Nola'sPenthouse Studios.
What an experience.
I did a couple of tours withHod O'Brien, who's kind of a
lesser-known bebop piano player,but he replaced Bill Evans in
(27:09):
the Oscar Pettiford Band in the50s and that that was amazing.
He was like the nicest guy onthe planet and an incredible
piano player.
Played with the WDR Big Band afew times with people like Ron
Carter and Jimmy Heath and PeterErskine and Dick Oats and
Terell Stafford
Geoff (27:28):
Wow, you've done some great things.
Steve (27:30):
So it was you know, things like that that are, I
mean, so lucky you know, yeah,like some definite highlights.
Geoff (27:36):
Amazing.
What was the last concert youattended?
Steve (27:40):
I've been going to quite a lot of classical music
concerts.
Recently I think I went to seethe London Philharmonic and they
played the Alban Berg Concertoand then they did a Brahms
Symphony.
But I thought I was going toenjoy the Berg more than the
Brahms, but it was the other wayaround.
Geoff (27:58):
It's funny, sometimes.
Those Brahms symphonies are somelodic, aren't they?
Steve (28:02):
Yeah, and they played it so well as well.
They just played the hell outof the Brahms.
Where did you see that?
It was at the World Festival.
Nice.
Geoff (28:10):
What would you say is your musical weakness?
Steve (28:12):
Like I was saying before, like you know people who can
play like an early style I wishI could kind of do that.
And also I'm not that great atplaying lead trumpet.
You know there's kind of like anew generation of guys like Tom
Walsh and James Coperton peopleand Jim Davidson who can kind
of do both.
They can play really good jazzand they can play really great
(28:33):
lead as well and I kind of wishI could.
I've got better at it.
I can kind of fake it, but it's, it doesn't come naturally to
me.
No, I've much prefer sittingthere third or fourth and
following somebody else ratherthan like the guy who's leading
the whole.
Geoff (28:48):
Yeah, Do you ever get nervous on stage?
Steve (28:51):
It's rare but yeah sometimes.
But I think if I do get nervousit's more like good nerves.
It's more excitement thannerves.
Geoff (29:01):
Yeah yeah, what's your favourite sandwich,
Steve (29:06):
My favourite sandwich.
Well, you can't beat a baconsandwich, can you,
Geoff (29:10):
you can't no.
What about a favourite movie?
Do you watch many?
Steve (29:14):
You I used to watch loads , yeah, but I don't so much
anymore.
But the last one I watched whenDavid Lynch died, I kind of
went on a bit of a mission tosee the ones I hadn't seen and I
watched.
What's that one about?
That jazz saxophone playerSomeone?
(29:35):
breaks into his house and theytake videos of him and his wife
sleeping I don't think I've seenthat one and then they post the
video to them through themailbox and they're watching it
and it obviously really freaksthem out and it gets really
really weird.
But it was quite player,? one.
It was quite a good one.
Cool.
The music's not very good in it, though.
Geoff (29:51):
What's your favorite venue to play in?
Steve (29:52):
Just give me a like a kind of a filthy jazz club
somewhere into some basement,somewhere you know that's
relaxed and not not uptight andnot not you know I'm not.
I'm not that bothered aboutplaying some super prestigious
place.
I mean, it's nice to play inplaces that are respected and
stuff, but I'm quite happy justplaying in some basement
somewhere.
Geoff (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
What about a favourite countryor a favourite city to?
Steve (30:15):
visit.
I mean New York's like theobvious choice, but then with
all the stuff going on inAmerica and stuff, I'm not
really.
I've got friends there.
It's been a while since I'vebeen, but it's just an exciting
place, isn't it?
I mean I like Germany place,isn't it?
I mean, I like Germany, I'm notso keen on Berlin.
I like Munich and I like Hollandtoo.
I always like coming here.
Yeah, I've not been to Hollandvery much.
Geoff (30:35):
We're going to Amsterdam tomorrow so yeah, that'll be,
that's a great city, you know?
One last question, and it iswhat's your favorite
chord,
Steve (30:48):
But it depends where it's going, though, like what's
before in the context.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Like when I write music thesedays I kind of use that, yeah,
like a minor seven chord butwith a with a flat six.
I mean, you know it's in thescale of just like a natural
minor.
But if you put, actually putlike the nine and the flat six
(31:08):
in there with the, with the,with the third and the seventh,
yeah it can sound pretty coolyeah, okay, do you play piano?
yeah right, I mean not very welllike composers.
Yeah, so you've studied sort ofharmony on piano and voicings
and so on yeah, yeah, I meanit's one of those things that I
wish I had more time to sit downand really practice, but but
yeah, yeah, I mean I kind ofknow what I want to play, but
(31:30):
but I just can't do it in timewith a band, you know.
But I can sit there and I can,you know.
Geoff (31:36):
That's the good thing about composing you can do it
everything in slow motion.
Steve (31:39):
Yeah exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Geoff (31:40):
Thanks for your time, steve.
No worries, looking forward toplaying with Matt Bianco again
this evening.
Steve (31:51):
It'll be Bye.
Great, it's fun.
Announcement (31:52):
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podcast.
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