July 3, 2025 • 42 mins
Geoff has a visit from an old friend – the wonderful jazz saxophonist, composer and educator Martin Hathaway.
What does it take to forge a path in jazz that spans performing, teaching, and leading one of the UK's most prestigious jazz education programs? In this captivating conversation, Martin opens up about his musical journey from curious child to influential jazz pedagogue.
Martin's story begins with a recorder, an innate ability to play by ear, and an uncle who introduced him to the sounds of West Coast jazz through cherished vinyl records. These early experiences of recording jazz albums onto cassette tapes from the library and learning solos by ear would later form the foundation of his approach to jazz education. There's something wonderfully authentic about his recollection of performing Gerry Mulligan's ‘Walkin’ Shoes’ as a school assembly solo - cobbling together improvisations he'd learned from recordings without truly understanding the theory behind them.
The conversation delves deep into the art of teaching jazz improvisation, with Martin reflecting on his years leading the Guildhall School of Music's jazz program. He thoughtfully explores the tension between academic approaches to jazz education and the more organic, ear-based learning that characterised his own development. His balanced perspective acknowledges multiple pathways to improvisation - from melody-based approaches inspired by Louis Armstrong to vocabulary-building "licks" methods - offering invaluable insight for players at any stage of development.
Martin demonstrates his improvisational approach to the 1930s Irving Berlin standard ‘How Deep is the Ocean?’ (accompanied by the Quartet app of course), revealing how an experienced improviser navigates harmony in real-time while maintaining melodic coherence.
His reflections on career highlights - from debut performances at Ronnie Scott's to sharing stages with heroes like Harry Beckett - remind us that jazz is ultimately about human connection and the passing of a torch from one generation to the next.
Whether you're a jazz student seeking guidance or a seasoned player looking for fresh inspiration, Martin's journey offers both practical wisdom and the reassurance that even the most accomplished musicians continue learning throughout their careers.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello again, podcats Geoff Gascoyne here, hope
you're w ell Today I'm talkingto an old friend of mine, Martin
Hathaway.
Amazing musician, a greatteacher, a great clarinet player
, alto sax player, a lovelybloke.
He's coming around to my housegonna make him some lunch and
then we're gonna have a littlechat and a little play.
(00:21):
So here we go
Announcement (00:39):
The Quartet jazz standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS.
Jazz standards podcast isbrought to you by the Quartet
app for iOS.
Taking your jazz play along toanother level.
Geoff (00:50):
Martin, how are you?
I'm well, I'm well.
Are you well?
I'm well.
Thanks for coming over.
Martin (00:53):
It's fantastic to be here.
Great to see you.
Geoff (00:55):
Can we start by talking about your background a bit and
how you got into jazz?
Martin (01:00):
I think I was identified as a young boy.
I had musical talent of somedescription.
I mean, like a lot of kids atthat time, I played the recorder
at school.
I can remember sort of beingable to pick out tunes quite
easily.
So I just used to, you know, gohome and muck about with the
recorder and find some tunesthat I liked to play, and that
(01:23):
continued with the support of mymum.
I started to have some clarinetlessons.
Geoff (01:30):
I went to the local music centre in Chelmsford where I
was born and where I grew up,and as far as the jazz was
concerned, I think that seemedto be able to play things by ear
quite well, naturally, justsort of find notes.
And when I got the clarinet, infact, I can remember learning
how to play or trying to workout how to play Moon River,
(01:51):
without actually knowing how toplay the clarinet properly.
So I sort of had all thesestrange fingerings in order to
make the right notes.
Um, that was before I had aclarinet lesson.
I just wanted to play.
I did that by hook or by crook,What age would that be?
Martin (02:04):
Age would that be?
, I think I was about eight ornine.
A few years later my granddadbought me a quite a cheap
saxophone.
So so I had a saxophone andalso my granddad also bought me
a piano as well, because Iwasn't very good at music theory
when I was young and one of themusic teachers said you should
learn how to play the pianobecause that will help you with
your theory.
So I had all these instrumentsto experiment around with, and
(02:26):
then with the jazz specifically,my uncle used to bring along uh
records when they used to comeand visit sort of every month or
so from east london loads ofvinyl for me to listen to, and I
was allowed to borrow it andrecord it onto cassette tape as
you used to do in those days.
So you know, uh, so there'sloads of Art Pepper and he was
(02:47):
particularly interested in westcoast jazz.
So he had all these records ofStan Getz, Gerry Mulligan, um,
Chet Baker Quartet, Lee Konitz.
So I just used to listen tothese things and try and work
out how some of the tunes wentum.
And I can remember working outhow to play Walking Shoes by
(03:08):
Gerry Mulligan right, which wasone of my favorite tracks, and
so I played that in the inschool in a school assembly, on
my own with no accompaniment,and I stood up and played the
melody and I and my solo waskind of a combination of the
Gerry Mulligan and Chet Bakersolos kind of squashed together.
Geoff (03:27):
I had absolutely no idea what I was doing.
That was a big thing, wasn't it, the school assembly doing?
Martin (03:33):
yeah, I remember doing that as well, and I thought it
sort of sounded okay.
And I can remember and this isnot a joke actually I finished
playing and then there wassilence and then I sat down and
then one of the teachers saidthank you very much, Martin.
Stunned silence.
Anyway, that was one of myfirst experiences of playing
what I would probably describeas real jazz, you know thanks to
(03:55):
my uncle, and then alsobecoming a member of the Essex
Youth Jazz Orchestra, which,when I was about 14.
And that's how I met ScottStroman um, he was running the
band so that obviously then sortof took my jazz thing on to the
next level playing in a bigband and also being with Scott
and various people that came totutor and and reading music as
(04:18):
well yeah, I mean when I firststarted I I wasn't so good on
the reading because I think Iused to rely on my ears so much
because that was my strong suit.
But obviously, being in thebands and stuff and playing in
ensembles, my reading started toget better.
You know, I started to playmore jazz, started to get to
know the music of jazz more, andthen also going on the
(04:39):
Guildhall Summer School andother educational opportunities
that Scott's friends were doing.
So I can remember doing aworkshop somewhere near
Cambridge.
That was the first time that Imet Dave Green and Trevor
Tompkins and we played So What?
by Miles Davis which I'd neverheard of before.
(05:02):
And so I can remember doingthat workshop and thinking, wow
this is great.
And then going to the recordshop and going to the library as
well.
I used to go to the ChelmsfordLibrary and just find records
and record them onto cassette.
Geoff (05:16):
Absolutely, me too yeah.
Martin (05:19):
And anything I mean.
That was how I discoveredCharlie Parker and John Coltrane
.
I didn't know at that time whoany of these people were, other
than the fact that they playedthe saxophone.
Geoff (05:29):
So what did you do with those recordings?
Did you transcribe things andplay along to them?
How did you use thoserecordings?
Martin (05:35):
I mean, I certainly played along to them and I
certainly, as we were talkingabout the Gerry Mulligan thing
earlier on.
I guess that was trans, Ididn't.
I didn't write anything down atthat stage, I was just sort of I
just listened to the, therecords, a lot and then just
yeah and played along to the, tothe tapes.
Getting ready to go to musiccollege was when I started to
(05:57):
write down things or work thingsout more manuscript paper but I
think before that I just usedto play by ear.
I guess you know my theory inmy notational skills weren't
brilliant when I first startedoff.
Did you take lessons fromanybody?
I went to the local musiccenter on a Saturday morning in
Chelmsford where I was doing the, the classical clarinet grades
(06:19):
and then saxophone.
I had some really inspirationalmusic teachers at the music
center and at school Jean Crook, who is still alive, she's in
her 90s, brilliant teacher,really inspirational.
She could have been and wouldhave been a very good jazz
musician.
She could play really well byear.
She could transpose anythinginto any key at sight.
(06:39):
So she had all the skills.
But she was very supportive,even though she didn't know
specifically about jazz.
Geoff (06:49):
Do you think that had a bearing on where you sort of led
on to?
Because I know you've done alot of teaching, you still do a
lot of teaching, and you werehead of the Guildhall course,
weren't you?
That's right.
So how did that lead up to youbecoming the head of the
Guildhall?
Martin (07:04):
I can remember, in fact, being at school when the
careers officer used to ask youwhat are you going to do when
you've left school?
I only had two choices that Iput down.
One was musician and the otherone was teacher, because I've
always enjoyed trying to helppeople.
I seem to have got a bit of atalent for music and I enjoy
helping other people.
You know share the magic ofmusic.
(07:25):
If there's anything that I cando to try and help, when I was a
student at the Guildhall I gota Saturday morning teaching job
at my old music centre and I hada few other private students.
And then in my last term as astudent at the Guildhall, an
opportunity arose where LionelGrigson, who was one of the
teachers at Guildhall, couldn'ttake a class and some of the
(07:48):
students had suggested that Ireplace him just for that term,
and so it was agreed.
So I tutored this group and itmust've gone quite well, because
then they asked me to continueand I've been there ever since.
Geoff (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, that was 1991 .
Martin (08:03):
How many years were you the head of the and I was head
of the course for.
Well, I actually had twoperiods of of leadership,
because what what happened atthe Guildhall was that they they
started the undergraduate jazzprogramme there formally in 1994
.
Now I'd been, so I'd been astudent there at the end of the
80s and there had already been anumber of undergraduate
(08:25):
students who were kind of likejazz specialists I suppose.
So it was me, I was there, TimGarland was there at the same
time, Jason Rebello, we were allon the classical course, but we
all had our jazz specialisms.
And then it was decided thatthere were so many musicians
(08:46):
like this coming through thatthey should actually have an
undergraduate jazz stream.
Right, that was 1994.
And they asked me, as someonewho'd been at the school for
quite a while already, toactually lead that programme.
So my official title there wascoordinator of undergraduate
(09:08):
jazz.
Geoff (09:09):
So I did that.
Had you done any of that kindof leadership stuff before I'd
Martin (09:13):
led some quite a lot of workshops, one-off workshops,
working for Essex Music ServiceI mean it's very different and
also and also the Essex YouthJazz Orchestra.
That was the other thing thatI'd actually been leading, that
after Scott had retired.
So I did have some experiencein leading quite a lot of
(09:33):
workshops.
But in terms of doing somethingat a major conservatoire was a
different thing.
But that role was acoordinating role, so it was an
artistic role but also, you know, trying to sort of put together
a course that we thought wouldbe, you know, beneficial to the
(09:57):
students, you know, giving themskills to be professional
musicians.
Geoff (10:02):
So you were deciding what the classes were.
Martin (10:04):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was kind of, in a way, jazz
equivalents of what was theexisting structure on the
undergraduate programme.
So, for example, you knowthey'd had there was a small
classes which were known asmusicianship.
So obviously we had a jazzversion of that.
(10:25):
So we just had the jazzspecialists in that group and
that class was essentially animprovisation workshop, yeah,
but then we also had some combos.
Geoff (10:35):
My experience in jazz education is it's such a
personal thing and trying tomake an academic subject out of
jazz it's not like classicalmusic, is it?
You can't look at the dots andplay it a certain way.
You know there's so much moreinterpretation in it.
So how do you make a formalthing out of jazz?
(10:56):
That's the question.
Martin (10:57):
I mean obviously it can be done.
I mean obviously there's loadsof models for that.
I remember talking to DaveLiebman, the sax player, who
famously played with Miles Davis, and he used to describe Gil
Evans' apartment in the late1940s in New York as a jazz
academy, because there was GilEvans' flat, you know, and
(11:21):
Charlie Parker was there everyday and Miles Davis was there
every day and all of the, theyoung musicians who were
interested in talking about themusic, playing, practicing, and
he said, you know, that was ajazz academy, right, and you
know, in a way, that's what wehad at the Guildhall was when I
certainly when I was a student,you had all of these amazing
people there and we were, allyou know, talking about playing,
(11:46):
doing a lot of playing,obviously, yeah, trying to put
it all together.
And and then, obviously, youknow, there's famous Berkeley
College, you know, in the States, you know it's one of the first
places, I think, to sort ofdevise a, a course for teaching
jazz.
I mean, people often ask me can, can jazz be taught?
And I think the answer is yes,anything can be taught if you
(12:07):
have a system, and there areobviously rudiments and lots of
nuts and bolts.
Geoff (12:12):
But quite a lot of it is subjective though, isn't it?
I mean, I know, for example,you are a big fan of early jazz.
Yeah Right, but you might getkids into Michael Brecker.
Is there a certain sort of nutsand bolts thing that you feel?
Martin (12:30):
that they all have to have ? I think there is and um,
and I actually, if I think, ifI look at my own, my playing and
my teaching, I think it's it'sactually broadened now.
It's hopefully I'm a muchbetter teacher now and, uh, you
know, you can teach people howto improvise.
Obviously, style and differentperiods of the music come into
it, but there are some generalprinciples that you can apply to
any style.
For example, you know, taking amelody and just experimenting
(12:52):
around with it is, of course,how people started improvisation
, and Louis Armstrong certainlyplayed like that.
That was how he improvised.
So if you can, if you canidentify systems and ways that
people do it, that's what.
That's the information that youcan then impart to your
students and you can actually dothat.
(13:14):
That particular example issomething you could do with with
any style.
Geoff (13:17):
What I found by interviewing all these different
people is how diverseeveryone's take on this is.
You know, I spoke to AlanBarnes and he said exactly what
you said.
Paraphrasing is rephrasing amelody, you know yeah spoke to
Dave O'Higgins and he said licks, licks, licks, you know, and
completely different approach,you know yeah and it's
(13:40):
fascinating that isn't it,
Martin (13:41):
it is, it is, and I've I've certainly done all those
you know I've taught, I've, I'vepracticed all of those things
is, it is and I've I'vecertainly done all those you
know I've taught, I've I'vepracticed all of those things
you just mentioned and I'vecertainly taught those things
and they're all.
I think they're all useful.
You know, having licks is isuseful.
Some people will probably.
I know some jazz teachers.
I've met people in my journeyyou know who who don't like that
(14:03):
particular method of learning,but I do think it has its uses,
you know, because it gives youits vocabulary and it tells you
everything about the music,about how it works.
Geoff (14:17):
I remember when we first taught alongside each other, we
used to go to France, didn't we,and teach on the Clive Fenner
summer schools.
Yeah, I would always bringdetailed charts and get everyone
to reading and you'd be notusing any music and just doing
stuff by ear and I just learnedsuch a lot from listening to
that, you know, and how you didit, and how much more of an oral
(14:37):
thing it is compared to my sortof slightly more academic kind
of written, slightlyneoclassical, approachical.
Martin (14:43):
Well, they've all got their places, Geoff, I mean they
do your stuff is fantastic aswell, but um yeah, it's just.
It's just trying to have amixture, isn't it?
And one of the things like,again, that people learn things
in different ways.
I mean, I do try and do a lotof things by ear still, but I
can remember teaching on onecourse where we had some
feedback at the end and therewas a couple of students who
(15:04):
said they really enjoyed it butthey would have liked a little
bit of music to sort of helpthem along the way, and that's
something that you, you know.
Again, you, you learn as ateacher.
You know it's always good toevaluate what you're doing and
to get some feedback and to makeadjustments and and I can see
where those people were comingfrom just a little bit of
(15:25):
notation probably would havehelped in that situation.
So it's a mixture, isn't it?
Mix and match.
When I was a student atGuildhall, one very important
teacher for me was LionelGrigson, who was also very much
of that mind.
You know he said all the answersare on the records and you know
(15:47):
, I mean he was also a greatacademic and he would write
things down or things would betranscribed, but he was very
much about, you know, listeningto the recordings and trying to
learn tunes by ear.
He was kind of very anti-RealBook, got very annoyed if he saw
people bringing Real books intohis class because he'd try and
(16:09):
do a lot of things by ear and Ithink that's because I was.
That's the way that I'd learned.
That's how we kind of we had avery sort of close musical
relationship as a result of that, um, and then, obviously, when
I, when I first started teaching, I think you, a lot of what I
was doing was modeled on thepeople that, yeah, who were
important to you, like Lionel.
(16:31):
So we did, we did do a lot ofear playing and Lionel was also
quite keen on people learninglicks and, as we know, there's a
there is a great value in that,but there is a danger,
obviously, that if you go toofar down that route then you can
just end up playing the lickssounding like a machine playing
(16:53):
the musical typewriter, exactly,not really sort of improvising
with the vocabulary you'velearnt, and that can be a that
can be a danger.
A healthy balance of all thethings we've been talking about
I think is probably the wayforward.
Geoff (17:15):
So I've made some apps.
They contain 500 standardsacross four volumes and I've
asked you to pick a standard forus today, and we're going to
talk about it and play it.
Sure, which standard have youchosen?
I have chosen How Deep Is TheOcean?
How lovely, and why have youchosen that one?
Martin (17:34):
I've chosen that tune because it is, funnily enough,
been a tune that's just been inmy head a lot in the last couple
of weeks.
The thing that really triggeredit off was I was watching on
YouTube a couple of interviewsor mini documentaries actually,
of Lee Konitz, and he's somebodythat I've always really loved
his playing.
(17:54):
Again, I, you know I used tolisten to a lot of records that
my uncle had of his and that wasa tune How Deep Is The Ocean
that Lee Konitz and his mateWarne Marsh, who's another one
of my heroes, they used to playa lot, cause it's a, it's a
beautiful melody, it's a, it's abeautiful melody, it's a, it's
(18:15):
a lovely harmonic sequence.
That it's one of thosesequences that I, I don't it
never, it never tires.
You know, it's always a joy toplay on that tune and that's
certainly the.
The sort of the Konitz Marshapproach was that they they mind
a relatively small repertory ofstandards, but that was one of
(18:37):
the tunes that they reallyenjoyed, right so we're going to
play two choruses.
Geoff (18:41):
We're not going to play the tune.
First chorus will be a two feelfrom the bass.
Second chorus is four feel fromthe bass and then we're going
to end on e flat chord.
Okay, four bars, four barsintroduction.
Okay, okay, you ready, yeah.
Okay, here it comes.
(19:07):
Yeah me um, thank you yeah,thanks very much, yeah, yeah.
(20:51):
So what kind of things weregoing through your mind when you
were improvising during that?
Martin (20:56):
Because we've just been talking about Lee Konitz.
I suppose I had a little bit ofKonitz in mind trying to find a
melody.
I mean, one of the great thingsI think about Lee Konitz was
that he, you know his approachwas was not sort of lick based
at all really.
I mean, obviously, you know,you obviously knew he was
somebody that always tried toconstruct a great melody, note
(21:17):
for note.
So you know, whatever note youhappen to be on in a certain
place within the chord sequence,you, you know, you're trying to
find maybe the nearest note inthe next chord or to try and
play in what you might describeas quite a sort of a linear, a
way, a sort of horizontal way ofimprovising rather than
necessarily sort of going up anddown the notes of the chords.
(21:39):
You know that sort of traditionof sometimes in jazz education
we refer to, you know, learninghow to play tunes like this.
You would play the chord tones,the arpeggio notes, to the
chords, and I mean obviouslyKonitz could do that, but he
tended, I think he tended toplay more, you know, finding a
line.
You know that moved by step,like what Lester Young used to
do in fact before before him.
(22:01):
So I was trying to find astrong sense of melody, if I
possibly could, in those.
I think you achieved that.
Thank you very much, and I thinkthere was a yeah, there was a
couple of times where I wouldcouple of gray areas that I sort
of need to sort of just reviseor practice a little bit.
I think to why I like that,that chord sequence.
(22:21):
There's some challenging movesin that tune.
It's a.
It's a really beautifulsequence and that's why I said
earlier on, like it doesn't, itdoesn't tire for me.
You know, in, in from aharmonic and melodic point of
view, because there's so manylittle nooks and crannies in
that tune, because there are alot of chords in that piece,
(22:43):
it's very easy to end up justfocusing perhaps on harmonic
things without necessarilythinking about all the other
stuff, about interest in rhythm,interest in texture and
dynamics and the other materialsof music.
You know that aren'tnecessarily all.
You know, jazz improvisationisn't all about melody and
(23:06):
harmony.
I mean, those are obviouslyincredibly important components,
but there are the othercomponents as well.
I'm trying to have a nicecombination of all those
materials when I'm playing.
Geoff (23:16):
Do you ever start a solo with a specific lick in mind or
a specific phrase in mind?
Uh?
Martin (23:22):
No, I just sort of um, I just sort of start out for the
best.
Sometimes I mean yeah, with a,with a blank mind, which is easy
to do, because I because I sayto my students it's easy for me
to do that because my mind isalways blank, um, but I, but I
actually do try and do that.
I mean, if you know, I might befollowing somebody else on a
(23:45):
gig in terms of blowing, so Imight take inspiration from the
person who's just played, youknow, take the musical baton
from them, and that might be astarting point yeah for my solo,
depending on what on howthey've just played, where they
where they were at when theyleft off their solo.
Other than that, I think, yeah,sometimes I just sort of wait,
(24:08):
just sort of, and then as soonas I start playing, then I've
started and then I will try anddo something with whatever it is
that I've served up at thebeginning, try and start from
from from nothing so it startsoff in C minor, this tune right
and does a 2-5 in C, C minor.
Geoff (24:25):
Yeah, so when you, when you go across that 2-5 bar, are
you thinking of the 2 and the 5or you are you just thinking of
pure melody?
How is that working?
It's very good questions.
Martin (24:38):
Geoff, I think a combination of all those things.
There's some, there's somedifferent approaches to that.
You know, in terms of.
Geoff (24:43):
Could you play me a couple of approaches you?
Martin (24:45):
know I did play it as a kind of a, as a concert, sort of
c minor six type sounding yeah.
Yeah.
Geoff (25:00):
And then approaching the two five, the minor two five.
Yeah, Just imagine that you'replaying one, two five.
Martin (25:15):
Yeah, so there I played, yeah, I played one and then a
2-5.
And there's a few differentways of doing that, yeah, I mean
yeah, so on the half diminishedchord, there I was playing, you
(25:35):
know, natural nine, and thenyou obviously could then make
the G7 sound altered.
So there's and I mean those areall theoretical things which
you know create different waysof creating different kinds of
melody.
You know different kinds ofharmony, different ways of
(25:55):
creating different kinds ofmelody.
You know different kinds ofharmony.
And, and obviously the last twothings were spelling out
different chords there,different ways of spelling
chords, whereas the first thingwe played, which was just that a
minor sixth, pentatonic, issomething that kind of fits,
it's a sound world, that kind offits over the top, yeah, which
you know, I mean that particularsound is a sound that you know
(26:17):
McCoy Tyner and John Coltraneused to play quite a lot, that
kind of minor sixth.
Yeah, it's kind of like a modaljazz technique or sound.
So all these things they giveyou different approaches to how
you're going to construct yourmelodic and harmonic approach.
Fabulous.
Geoff (26:38):
I've got a few quickfire questions for you.
Sure, some of them will beeasier to answer than others,
some of them will not.
Okay, starting off with what'syour favourite album.
Martin (26:49):
That is such a difficult question to answer.
Obviously, as you know,students ask me that question
quite a lot.
Yeah, I would say that myfavourite album is a record
called Tales of the Algonquin,which is by John Surman and John
Warren, and I'll tell you whythat's the case.
It's because, well, there'slots of reasons, but it has many
(27:11):
of my favourite jazz musicianson it, British jazz musicians on
it, British jazz musicians andmusicians from that period who
were active in Britain in thelate 60s, early 70s.
The improvising on that recordis amazing from all the players.
John Surman is a is a is afeatured performer on that
record, but all the music iswritten by his friend, John
(27:34):
Warren, who's a Canadiancomposer who is still around,
who lives in York and he's nowin his 80s.
He was very active on there inthe London jazz scene,
contemporary jazz scene in inthe 60s, John Warren, and so all
the music is by him.
So it's got this amazingcombination of fantastic open
improvising, differentapproaches to improvising, all
(27:57):
these different personalities ofthe musicians who play on that
record, plus these amazingcompositions.
So I'm also a massive fan ofcomposed music, jazz music and
big band writing, and JohnWarren is one of my heroes as a
writer, so it's got all of hisamazing music on this record.
I don't think I know JohnWarren is one of my heroes as a
writer, so it's got all of hisamazing music on this record.
(28:17):
I don't think I know JohnWarren.
Well, you better check him out.
Geoff (28:20):
I know Dave Warren.
Martin (28:23):
Yeah, I know Dave.
Warren too.
Yeah, there's a few greatWarrens.
We played a lot of JohnWarren's music when I was a
student at the Guildhall in thebig band with Scott.
I can remember the first piecesof his that we played and I
remember going up to Scott afterthe first rehearsal saying this
is amazing, this music, who'swritten this?
I'd never heard anything quitelike it was this.
It was very orchestral in itsapproach and it was very through
(28:46):
composed, you know.
So all these different sectionsof the music and different
sections for people to improviseon, they, people weren't
necessarily improvising on thesame chords and so on and so on.
So it was away from the sort ofthe tradition.
It was more in the Ellington orGil Evans kind of mould of jazz
composition, I suppose, asopposed to the Basie stream.
(29:10):
I love Count Basie as well, butit was certainly some writing
that I'd never really sort ofcome across at that point in my
life, and so I became a bitobsessed with John Warren's
music and, um, Stan Sulzmann,who I was studying with at the
time, we used to play in JohnWarren's band.
So I mentioned this to Stan,you know, and Stan said oh, you
(29:31):
know, I'll tell John that we'vegot this young person who's
really interesting.
So I then got this phone callfrom John Warren and he sent me
loads of his recordings.
That's how I started gettinginterested in his music, and
this particular record is quitea well-known one in British jazz
circles the Tales of theAlgonquin.
(29:51):
So it's all John Warren's music.
It's a great record.
I'll check that one out, therewe go.
That's a very long answer toyour first question.
Geoff (29:58):
That was, but it's a very thorough answer.
Is there a favourite musician,alive or dead, that you would
like to have played with?
Martin (30:05):
That's another great question.
Ah, so many.
I mean, I've been very lucky tohave played with some amazing
musicians, and again, somepeople that I, you know.
When I was listening to allthose records from the library,
you know, I heard all of theseamazing musicians and I've been
very lucky in my life that Iactually got to play with and to
(30:28):
know some of these people.
Bix Beiderb ecke He'ddefinitely be one from the early
jazz period.
Bix is one of my heroes as aperformer and as an improviser.
I think he was an incrediblyskilled improviser and ahead of
his time in lots of ways as anartist.
(30:50):
As an improviser, I would loveto play with him.
That's pre-Louis Armstrong.
Same time, same time, sort ofsame period, but yeah, Armstrong
would be another.
And Charlie Parker.
Yeah, he's probably high oneveryone's list, and John
Coltrane would be another, andthere were so many others Lee
(31:11):
Konitz, who we were just talkingabout, Warne Marsh there's some
other musicians who are heroesof mine, so the list is endless.
Geoff (31:20):
What would you say was the highlight of your career or
a best gig moment?
Martin (31:23):
so far?
That is also a very difficultquestion to answer.
There's been so many highlights.
Playing with your big band, atthe Pizza Express, and that's
not just because you happen tobe sitting opposite me, but but
playing with you, yeah, it'sdefinitely.
That's too kind but, surely nottrue?
it is true, it is true, um, andI mean that most sincerely.
(31:46):
Um, yeah, I was lucky to leadmy own group.
I had, um, I had a quartet umin the early 90s with Phil
Robson on guitar, who I was atGuildhall with, and we had a gig
at Ronnie's with that group,playing opposite the late Bob
Berg.
That was an interestingexperience, but that was the
(32:08):
first time that I'd led my owngroup at Ronnie's and so that
was obviously a particularlyimportant moment, I think, in my
career to sort of stand on thatstage and actually get
introduced.
This was when Ronnie was stillalive, so I actually got
introduced by Ronnie and he wasvery nice to me and everyone
else.
That was a particularlyimportant moment, I would say.
(32:29):
I don't know, there's so manyothers.
I mean it's just great beingasked to play actually, you know
, and to play actually you know,and to play with.
I've been very lucky to, as Iwas saying earlier on, to have
played with a lot of my musicalheroes from the British jazz
scene, hearing the records whenI was sort of younger and just
(32:50):
loving the music, and then whenyou actually get to meet them.
I was lucky to get to meet someof these people.
I played with Michael Garrickfor many years and he was
someone that I really lovedlistening to his music when I
was younger.
Harry Beckett, the trumpetplayer, was somebody else who
he's on that record that we weretalking about Tales of the
Algonquin and various otherthings, so he had this very
(33:12):
particular and special way ofplaying, great sound and feel.
And I can remember doing a gigwith Lionel as a student and
Lionel said, oh, the person onthe front line with you is going
to be Harry Beckett.
I remember getting incrediblyexcited and then we did this gig
and there I was.
I can remember just the magicof standing next to him and
hearing that sound.
The sound that I heard onrecords was there, it was.
(33:35):
It was right next to me and Iwas playing with this guy, you
know, and it was just amazingmagic.
Yeah, and I've had.
So I've been lucky that I'vehad a lot of those similar
experiences of various othergigs over the years.
Geoff (33:46):
So great.
What was the last concert youattended?
Martin (33:51):
I might have to think about that one.
I don't know.
I might have to think aboutthat one.
I don't know any gigs you'vebeen to in the last year, or
something most of the time it'sones that I've actually been
playing on, which sounds quitebad, but I think, partly because
I've been so busy with thingsthat I I'm not sort of getting
(34:18):
out that often to actually seeother people play, which is
something that I should try anddo more often.
Geoff (34:28):
Have there been some moments in your life, some gigs
that you've seen that have beeninfluential on you?
Martin (34:33):
Yeah, I mean I can absolutely.
Again, many.
We were talking about JohnWarren.
I remember going to see JohnSurman had this particular
project of his called The BrassProject, of which John Warren
wrote all the music, and theyhad a residency at Ronnie's
years ago and so I went.
I think I went three times inthe week to see that.
(34:55):
That was pretty amazingactually.
I mean that's just one examplethat springs to mind.
Seeing Ornette Coleman at theBarbican some years back and
being really amazed at the factthat he could still do it even
though he was getting on.
It took a little bit of time forthem to warm up.
(35:16):
I was there and I was thinking,oh, you know, there he was and
it was just amazing to see himlive.
And then he really startedplaying and I mean that was
amazing seeing him still beingable to just really make it up
as he went along.
I I'm also seeing Keith Jarretta couple of times, who's
another hero of mine and asimilar thing just sort of
(35:40):
seeing him in action and alsoseeing what we all go through,
which is kind of the ups anddowns of being in the spotlight
on the stage.
Like we were just talking about.
Ornette took a little bit oftime to warm up.
A couple of times I've seenKeith Jarrett where I got a
(36:03):
little feeling of that.
There was one gig at theFestival Hall where it was the
trio, the standards trio and Idon't think they were very happy
with the sound in the first set.
They were kind of feeling theirway a little bit and you could
kind of sense that maybe it allwasn't quite well.
And then the set sort offinished a little bit early and
then there was a very longinterval where I suspect they
(36:26):
were probably doing anothersound check or just sorting some
things out.
And then the second set wascompletely different.
They really went for it and itwas amazing
What is your musical weakness?
Well, it's a.
It's a thing I was saying umearlier on.
I when, when I first startedoff, my reading was very poor
(36:48):
and I think that has somethingto do with the fact that I used
my strong suit was always sortof playing things by ear and
having a good musical memory.
I think At home I did a lot ofplaying, which I would probably
describe as practicing, althoughI sometimes didn't practice the
things that some of my musicteachers were telling me that I
should be, but I certainly did alot of playing.
(37:08):
But yeah, I found it a littlebit tricky to start with to
understand music theory, andthat coincided with reading.
So I found reading sort ofchallenging.
It's something that I'veimproved on dramatically because
obviously you have to and Istarted playing in more and more
ensembles and the moresituations where I had to read,
(37:31):
obviously it gets better.
But that's something that Istill sometimes find quite
challenging, especially if Ihaven't done many reading gigs.
Geoff (37:39):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
Martin (37:41):
Yes, yeah, all the time.
I mean I think I've haddifferent periods of nervousness
, if that's the right way ofdescribing it.
When I was younger I used toget very nervous, particularly
in things like exams, not somuch on sort of concerts, but I
think when the pressure wasreally on, if I was having to
sort of you know really sort ofproduce something that was you
(38:03):
know sort of challenging in anexam situation, I used to get
pretty stressed out.
The more on top of the musicthat I was playing, in terms of
you know how well I'd prepared,the less nervous I was Then.
I've gone through variousperiods where I've always felt
pretty, pretty comfortable onstage and then I've had a few
(38:23):
sort of ups and downs as far asthat's concerned and sort of
some other factors in my life Ithink have affected my
confidence, you know, not justas a person, but that that also
sort of manifested itselfsometimes to being on stage
where I've I've I've been ableto play, but it's been I would
describe it as interference, youknow, not being able to
(38:46):
completely be focused on what,what it is I'm trying to do.
But that has got better.
So I'm, you know, I'm currentlyin a pretty good place as far
as that is concerned, and a lotof it, I think, for me is
personally down to, you know, mypreparation for, for playing
and even though we're talkinghere mostly about, you know,
(39:07):
improvisation.
My sort of key to a lot of myteaching is is is talking about
preparation for improvising.
You know, we don't quite knowwhat we're going to play when we
play, when we're playing jazz,but there's lots of different
ways that one could play and alot of those things can and
should be explored and practiseddifferent techniques.
(39:30):
Going back to the teaching thingthat we were talking about
earlier, I think that you knowI'm at my best when I when I'm,
you know, my technique is at itsbest playing wise and also in
terms of the mechanics of themusic.
But if I'm on top of that, thenI sort of I can really enjoy
myself and feel comfortableabout what I'm doing yeah,
Okay, a couple more slightlyoff topic questions for you.
(39:53):
What's your favorite sandwich?
Every day is different, fishy sandwiches are always good
.
I like fish, tuna or somethingtuna sandwich or some
description.
Geoff (40:09):
What about a favourite movie?
Martin (40:10):
Where do I start with that?
Goodbye.
Mr Chips has always been afavourite of mine.
You like the oldies?
Yeah, I do like that film.
I just think Robert Donat, whoplays the role of the teacher in
that film and who ages you knowbrilliantly as the story goes
on, I think that's an amazingperformance.
I really enjoyed that film.
(40:32):
I also like lots of films withwith Michael Caine in Educating
Rita, that's a good film.
Geoff (40:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah uh, is there a favorite venue that you
like to play in?
Martin (40:42):
From a jazz point of view.
Yeah, I mean, there's always.
For me there's always somethingspecial about playing at
Ronnie's, I would say, justbecause it's that you know it's
hallowed turf and I suppose youknow as a as a British jazz
musician, that is the placewhere you one always sort of
wants to be yeah at, so I alwaysget a particularly sort of
(41:04):
special buzz about playing there.
Geoff (41:07):
What about a favorite country or a city?
Martin (41:10):
I've always really liked being in France, just because
of the vibe.
You know, whenever I've beenlucky enough to play in Europe
I've played in Europe quite alot you seem to be treated with
a lot of respect as a musicianwhen you're in Europe.
Well, you know this, don't you?
You know it's seen as somethingspecial If you're a musician.
People want to know you andthey're really interested.
(41:33):
They are, oh, really, you're amusician?
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, and sometimes here wedon't quite get that.
Yeah, is that really your job?
And what do you do during theday?
Geoff (41:42):
What's your real job?
Martin (41:43):
Exactly, all that sort of thing.
Geoff (41:45):
One last question what's your favorite chord?
Martin (41:48):
What a question that is.
I don't know whichever one I'mon at the time.
Geoff (41:59):
Thanks for the great playing and the years of
inspiration as a teacher and forlooking after my Lewis as well
at school.
Thank you very much, Martin.
It's lovely to see you.
Nice to see you too, and we'llplay together in December when
we have some more Big Band.
We sure will, if not before.
Absolutely All right see yousoon.
Cheers, bye, bye.
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Hello again, podcats Geoff Gascoyne here, hope
you're w ell Today I'm talkingto an old friend of mine, Martin
Hathaway.
Amazing musician, a greatteacher, a great clarinet player
, alto sax player, a lovelybloke.
He's coming around to my housegonna make him some lunch and
then we're gonna have a littlechat and a little play.
(00:21):
So here we go
Announcement (00:39):
The Quartet jazz standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS.
Jazz standards podcast isbrought to you by the Quartet
app for iOS.
Taking your jazz play along toanother level.
Geoff (00:50):
Martin, how are you?
I'm well, I'm well.
Are you well?
I'm well.
Thanks for coming over.
Martin (00:53):
It's fantastic to be here.
Great to see you.
Geoff (00:55):
Can we start by talking about your background a bit and
how you got into jazz?
Martin (01:00):
I think I was identified as a young boy.
I had musical talent of somedescription.
I mean, like a lot of kids atthat time, I played the recorder
at school.
I can remember sort of beingable to pick out tunes quite
easily.
So I just used to, you know, gohome and muck about with the
recorder and find some tunesthat I liked to play, and that
(01:23):
continued with the support of mymum.
I started to have some clarinetlessons.
Geoff (01:30):
I went to the local music centre in Chelmsford where I
was born and where I grew up,and as far as the jazz was
concerned, I think that seemedto be able to play things by ear
quite well, naturally, justsort of find notes.
And when I got the clarinet, infact, I can remember learning
how to play or trying to workout how to play Moon River,
(01:51):
without actually knowing how toplay the clarinet properly.
So I sort of had all thesestrange fingerings in order to
make the right notes.
Um, that was before I had aclarinet lesson.
I just wanted to play.
I did that by hook or by crook,What age would that be?
Martin (02:04):
Age would that be?
, I think I was about eight ornine.
A few years later my granddadbought me a quite a cheap
saxophone.
So so I had a saxophone andalso my granddad also bought me
a piano as well, because Iwasn't very good at music theory
when I was young and one of themusic teachers said you should
learn how to play the pianobecause that will help you with
your theory.
So I had all these instrumentsto experiment around with, and
(02:26):
then with the jazz specifically,my uncle used to bring along uh
records when they used to comeand visit sort of every month or
so from east london loads ofvinyl for me to listen to, and I
was allowed to borrow it andrecord it onto cassette tape as
you used to do in those days.
So you know, uh, so there'sloads of Art Pepper and he was
(02:47):
particularly interested in westcoast jazz.
So he had all these records ofStan Getz, Gerry Mulligan, um,
Chet Baker Quartet, Lee Konitz.
So I just used to listen tothese things and try and work
out how some of the tunes wentum.
And I can remember working outhow to play Walking Shoes by
(03:08):
Gerry Mulligan right, which wasone of my favorite tracks, and
so I played that in the inschool in a school assembly, on
my own with no accompaniment,and I stood up and played the
melody and I and my solo waskind of a combination of the
Gerry Mulligan and Chet Bakersolos kind of squashed together.
Geoff (03:27):
I had absolutely no idea what I was doing.
That was a big thing, wasn't it, the school assembly doing?
Martin (03:33):
yeah, I remember doing that as well, and I thought it
sort of sounded okay.
And I can remember and this isnot a joke actually I finished
playing and then there wassilence and then I sat down and
then one of the teachers saidthank you very much, Martin.
Stunned silence.
Anyway, that was one of myfirst experiences of playing
what I would probably describeas real jazz, you know thanks to
(03:55):
my uncle, and then alsobecoming a member of the Essex
Youth Jazz Orchestra, which,when I was about 14.
And that's how I met ScottStroman um, he was running the
band so that obviously then sortof took my jazz thing on to the
next level playing in a bigband and also being with Scott
and various people that came totutor and and reading music as
(04:18):
well yeah, I mean when I firststarted I I wasn't so good on
the reading because I think Iused to rely on my ears so much
because that was my strong suit.
But obviously, being in thebands and stuff and playing in
ensembles, my reading started toget better.
You know, I started to playmore jazz, started to get to
know the music of jazz more, andthen also going on the
(04:39):
Guildhall Summer School andother educational opportunities
that Scott's friends were doing.
So I can remember doing aworkshop somewhere near
Cambridge.
That was the first time that Imet Dave Green and Trevor
Tompkins and we played So What?
by Miles Davis which I'd neverheard of before.
(05:02):
And so I can remember doingthat workshop and thinking, wow
this is great.
And then going to the recordshop and going to the library as
well.
I used to go to the ChelmsfordLibrary and just find records
and record them onto cassette.
Geoff (05:16):
Absolutely, me too yeah.
Martin (05:19):
And anything I mean.
That was how I discoveredCharlie Parker and John Coltrane
.
I didn't know at that time whoany of these people were, other
than the fact that they playedthe saxophone.
Geoff (05:29):
So what did you do with those recordings?
Did you transcribe things andplay along to them?
How did you use thoserecordings?
Martin (05:35):
I mean, I certainly played along to them and I
certainly, as we were talkingabout the Gerry Mulligan thing
earlier on.
I guess that was trans, Ididn't.
I didn't write anything down atthat stage, I was just sort of I
just listened to the, therecords, a lot and then just
yeah and played along to the, tothe tapes.
Getting ready to go to musiccollege was when I started to
(05:57):
write down things or work thingsout more manuscript paper but I
think before that I just usedto play by ear.
I guess you know my theory inmy notational skills weren't
brilliant when I first startedoff.
Did you take lessons fromanybody?
I went to the local musiccenter on a Saturday morning in
Chelmsford where I was doing the, the classical clarinet grades
(06:19):
and then saxophone.
I had some really inspirationalmusic teachers at the music
center and at school Jean Crook, who is still alive, she's in
her 90s, brilliant teacher,really inspirational.
She could have been and wouldhave been a very good jazz
musician.
She could play really well byear.
She could transpose anythinginto any key at sight.
(06:39):
So she had all the skills.
But she was very supportive,even though she didn't know
specifically about jazz.
Geoff (06:49):
Do you think that had a bearing on where you sort of led
on to?
Because I know you've done alot of teaching, you still do a
lot of teaching, and you werehead of the Guildhall course,
weren't you?
That's right.
So how did that lead up to youbecoming the head of the
Guildhall?
Martin (07:04):
I can remember, in fact, being at school when the
careers officer used to ask youwhat are you going to do when
you've left school?
I only had two choices that Iput down.
One was musician and the otherone was teacher, because I've
always enjoyed trying to helppeople.
I seem to have got a bit of atalent for music and I enjoy
helping other people.
You know share the magic ofmusic.
(07:25):
If there's anything that I cando to try and help, when I was a
student at the Guildhall I gota Saturday morning teaching job
at my old music centre and I hada few other private students.
And then in my last term as astudent at the Guildhall, an
opportunity arose where LionelGrigson, who was one of the
teachers at Guildhall, couldn'ttake a class and some of the
(07:48):
students had suggested that Ireplace him just for that term,
and so it was agreed.
So I tutored this group and itmust've gone quite well, because
then they asked me to continueand I've been there ever since.
Geoff (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, that was 1991 .
Martin (08:03):
How many years were you the head of the and I was head
of the course for.
Well, I actually had twoperiods of of leadership,
because what what happened atthe Guildhall was that they they
started the undergraduate jazzprogramme there formally in 1994
.
Now I'd been, so I'd been astudent there at the end of the
80s and there had already been anumber of undergraduate
(08:25):
students who were kind of likejazz specialists I suppose.
So it was me, I was there, TimGarland was there at the same
time, Jason Rebello, we were allon the classical course, but we
all had our jazz specialisms.
And then it was decided thatthere were so many musicians
(08:46):
like this coming through thatthey should actually have an
undergraduate jazz stream.
Right, that was 1994.
And they asked me, as someonewho'd been at the school for
quite a while already, toactually lead that programme.
So my official title there wascoordinator of undergraduate
(09:08):
jazz.
Geoff (09:09):
So I did that.
Had you done any of that kindof leadership stuff before I'd
Martin (09:13):
led some quite a lot of workshops, one-off workshops,
working for Essex Music ServiceI mean it's very different and
also and also the Essex YouthJazz Orchestra.
That was the other thing thatI'd actually been leading, that
after Scott had retired.
So I did have some experiencein leading quite a lot of
(09:33):
workshops.
But in terms of doing somethingat a major conservatoire was a
different thing.
But that role was acoordinating role, so it was an
artistic role but also, you know, trying to sort of put together
a course that we thought wouldbe, you know, beneficial to the
(09:57):
students, you know, giving themskills to be professional
musicians.
Geoff (10:02):
So you were deciding what the classes were.
Martin (10:04):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was kind of, in a way, jazz
equivalents of what was theexisting structure on the
undergraduate programme.
So, for example, you knowthey'd had there was a small
classes which were known asmusicianship.
So obviously we had a jazzversion of that.
(10:25):
So we just had the jazzspecialists in that group and
that class was essentially animprovisation workshop, yeah,
but then we also had some combos.
Geoff (10:35):
My experience in jazz education is it's such a
personal thing and trying tomake an academic subject out of
jazz it's not like classicalmusic, is it?
You can't look at the dots andplay it a certain way.
You know there's so much moreinterpretation in it.
So how do you make a formalthing out of jazz?
(10:56):
That's the question.
Martin (10:57):
I mean obviously it can be done.
I mean obviously there's loadsof models for that.
I remember talking to DaveLiebman, the sax player, who
famously played with Miles Davis, and he used to describe Gil
Evans' apartment in the late1940s in New York as a jazz
academy, because there was GilEvans' flat, you know, and
(11:21):
Charlie Parker was there everyday and Miles Davis was there
every day and all of the, theyoung musicians who were
interested in talking about themusic, playing, practicing, and
he said, you know, that was ajazz academy, right, and you
know, in a way, that's what wehad at the Guildhall was when I
certainly when I was a student,you had all of these amazing
people there and we were, allyou know, talking about playing,
(11:46):
doing a lot of playing,obviously, yeah, trying to put
it all together.
And and then, obviously, youknow, there's famous Berkeley
College, you know, in the States, you know it's one of the first
places, I think, to sort ofdevise a, a course for teaching
jazz.
I mean, people often ask me can, can jazz be taught?
And I think the answer is yes,anything can be taught if you
(12:07):
have a system, and there areobviously rudiments and lots of
nuts and bolts.
Geoff (12:12):
But quite a lot of it is subjective though, isn't it?
I mean, I know, for example,you are a big fan of early jazz.
Yeah Right, but you might getkids into Michael Brecker.
Is there a certain sort of nutsand bolts thing that you feel?
Martin (12:30):
that they all have to have ? I think there is and um,
and I actually, if I think, ifI look at my own, my playing and
my teaching, I think it's it'sactually broadened now.
It's hopefully I'm a muchbetter teacher now and, uh, you
know, you can teach people howto improvise.
Obviously, style and differentperiods of the music come into
it, but there are some generalprinciples that you can apply to
any style.
For example, you know, taking amelody and just experimenting
(12:52):
around with it is, of course,how people started improvisation
, and Louis Armstrong certainlyplayed like that.
That was how he improvised.
So if you can, if you canidentify systems and ways that
people do it, that's what.
That's the information that youcan then impart to your
students and you can actually dothat.
(13:14):
That particular example issomething you could do with with
any style.
Geoff (13:17):
What I found by interviewing all these different
people is how diverseeveryone's take on this is.
You know, I spoke to AlanBarnes and he said exactly what
you said.
Paraphrasing is rephrasing amelody, you know yeah spoke to
Dave O'Higgins and he said licks, licks, licks, you know, and
completely different approach,you know yeah and it's
(13:40):
fascinating that isn't it,
Martin (13:41):
it is, it is, and I've I've certainly done all those
you know I've taught, I've, I'vepracticed all of those things
is, it is and I've I'vecertainly done all those you
know I've taught, I've I'vepracticed all of those things
you just mentioned and I'vecertainly taught those things
and they're all.
I think they're all useful.
You know, having licks is isuseful.
Some people will probably.
I know some jazz teachers.
I've met people in my journeyyou know who who don't like that
(14:03):
particular method of learning,but I do think it has its uses,
you know, because it gives youits vocabulary and it tells you
everything about the music,about how it works.
Geoff (14:17):
I remember when we first taught alongside each other, we
used to go to France, didn't we,and teach on the Clive Fenner
summer schools.
Yeah, I would always bringdetailed charts and get everyone
to reading and you'd be notusing any music and just doing
stuff by ear and I just learnedsuch a lot from listening to
that, you know, and how you didit, and how much more of an oral
(14:37):
thing it is compared to my sortof slightly more academic kind
of written, slightlyneoclassical, approachical.
Martin (14:43):
Well, they've all got their places, Geoff, I mean they
do your stuff is fantastic aswell, but um yeah, it's just.
It's just trying to have amixture, isn't it?
And one of the things like,again, that people learn things
in different ways.
I mean, I do try and do a lotof things by ear still, but I
can remember teaching on onecourse where we had some
feedback at the end and therewas a couple of students who
(15:04):
said they really enjoyed it butthey would have liked a little
bit of music to sort of helpthem along the way, and that's
something that you, you know.
Again, you, you learn as ateacher.
You know it's always good toevaluate what you're doing and
to get some feedback and to makeadjustments and and I can see
where those people were comingfrom just a little bit of
(15:25):
notation probably would havehelped in that situation.
So it's a mixture, isn't it?
Mix and match.
When I was a student atGuildhall, one very important
teacher for me was LionelGrigson, who was also very much
of that mind.
You know he said all the answersare on the records and you know
(15:47):
, I mean he was also a greatacademic and he would write
things down or things would betranscribed, but he was very
much about, you know, listeningto the recordings and trying to
learn tunes by ear.
He was kind of very anti-RealBook, got very annoyed if he saw
people bringing Real books intohis class because he'd try and
(16:09):
do a lot of things by ear and Ithink that's because I was.
That's the way that I'd learned.
That's how we kind of we had avery sort of close musical
relationship as a result of that, um, and then, obviously, when
I, when I first started teaching, I think you, a lot of what I
was doing was modeled on thepeople that, yeah, who were
important to you, like Lionel.
(16:31):
So we did, we did do a lot ofear playing and Lionel was also
quite keen on people learninglicks and, as we know, there's a
there is a great value in that,but there is a danger,
obviously, that if you go toofar down that route then you can
just end up playing the lickssounding like a machine playing
(16:53):
the musical typewriter, exactly,not really sort of improvising
with the vocabulary you'velearnt, and that can be a that
can be a danger.
A healthy balance of all thethings we've been talking about
I think is probably the wayforward.
Geoff (17:15):
So I've made some apps.
They contain 500 standardsacross four volumes and I've
asked you to pick a standard forus today, and we're going to
talk about it and play it.
Sure, which standard have youchosen?
I have chosen How Deep Is TheOcean?
How lovely, and why have youchosen that one?
Martin (17:34):
I've chosen that tune because it is, funnily enough,
been a tune that's just been inmy head a lot in the last couple
of weeks.
The thing that really triggeredit off was I was watching on
YouTube a couple of interviewsor mini documentaries actually,
of Lee Konitz, and he's somebodythat I've always really loved
his playing.
(17:54):
Again, I, you know I used tolisten to a lot of records that
my uncle had of his and that wasa tune How Deep Is The Ocean
that Lee Konitz and his mateWarne Marsh, who's another one
of my heroes, they used to playa lot, cause it's a, it's a
beautiful melody, it's a, it's abeautiful melody, it's a, it's
(18:15):
a lovely harmonic sequence.
That it's one of thosesequences that I, I don't it
never, it never tires.
You know, it's always a joy toplay on that tune and that's
certainly the.
The sort of the Konitz Marshapproach was that they they mind
a relatively small repertory ofstandards, but that was one of
(18:37):
the tunes that they reallyenjoyed, right so we're going to
play two choruses.
Geoff (18:41):
We're not going to play the tune.
First chorus will be a two feelfrom the bass.
Second chorus is four feel fromthe bass and then we're going
to end on e flat chord.
Okay, four bars, four barsintroduction.
Okay, okay, you ready, yeah.
Okay, here it comes.
(19:07):
Yeah me um, thank you yeah,thanks very much, yeah, yeah.
(20:51):
So what kind of things weregoing through your mind when you
were improvising during that?
Martin (20:56):
Because we've just been talking about Lee Konitz.
I suppose I had a little bit ofKonitz in mind trying to find a
melody.
I mean, one of the great thingsI think about Lee Konitz was
that he, you know his approachwas was not sort of lick based
at all really.
I mean, obviously, you know,you obviously knew he was
somebody that always tried toconstruct a great melody, note
(21:17):
for note.
So you know, whatever note youhappen to be on in a certain
place within the chord sequence,you, you know, you're trying to
find maybe the nearest note inthe next chord or to try and
play in what you might describeas quite a sort of a linear, a
way, a sort of horizontal way ofimprovising rather than
necessarily sort of going up anddown the notes of the chords.
(21:39):
You know that sort of traditionof sometimes in jazz education
we refer to, you know, learninghow to play tunes like this.
You would play the chord tones,the arpeggio notes, to the
chords, and I mean obviouslyKonitz could do that, but he
tended, I think he tended toplay more, you know, finding a
line.
You know that moved by step,like what Lester Young used to
do in fact before before him.
(22:01):
So I was trying to find astrong sense of melody, if I
possibly could, in those.
I think you achieved that.
Thank you very much, and I thinkthere was a yeah, there was a
couple of times where I wouldcouple of gray areas that I sort
of need to sort of just reviseor practice a little bit.
I think to why I like that,that chord sequence.
(22:21):
There's some challenging movesin that tune.
It's a.
It's a really beautifulsequence and that's why I said
earlier on, like it doesn't, itdoesn't tire for me.
You know, in, in from aharmonic and melodic point of
view, because there's so manylittle nooks and crannies in
that tune, because there are alot of chords in that piece,
(22:43):
it's very easy to end up justfocusing perhaps on harmonic
things without necessarilythinking about all the other
stuff, about interest in rhythm,interest in texture and
dynamics and the other materialsof music.
You know that aren'tnecessarily all.
You know, jazz improvisationisn't all about melody and
(23:06):
harmony.
I mean, those are obviouslyincredibly important components,
but there are the othercomponents as well.
I'm trying to have a nicecombination of all those
materials when I'm playing.
Geoff (23:16):
Do you ever start a solo with a specific lick in mind or
a specific phrase in mind?
Uh?
Martin (23:22):
No, I just sort of um, I just sort of start out for the
best.
Sometimes I mean yeah, with a,with a blank mind, which is easy
to do, because I because I sayto my students it's easy for me
to do that because my mind isalways blank, um, but I, but I
actually do try and do that.
I mean, if you know, I might befollowing somebody else on a
(23:45):
gig in terms of blowing, so Imight take inspiration from the
person who's just played, youknow, take the musical baton
from them, and that might be astarting point yeah for my solo,
depending on what on howthey've just played, where they
where they were at when theyleft off their solo.
Other than that, I think, yeah,sometimes I just sort of wait,
(24:08):
just sort of, and then as soonas I start playing, then I've
started and then I will try anddo something with whatever it is
that I've served up at thebeginning, try and start from
from from nothing so it startsoff in C minor, this tune right
and does a 2-5 in C, C minor.
Geoff (24:25):
Yeah, so when you, when you go across that 2-5 bar, are
you thinking of the 2 and the 5or you are you just thinking of
pure melody?
How is that working?
It's very good questions.
Martin (24:38):
Geoff, I think a combination of all those things.
There's some, there's somedifferent approaches to that.
You know, in terms of.
Geoff (24:43):
Could you play me a couple of approaches you?
Martin (24:45):
know I did play it as a kind of a, as a concert, sort of
c minor six type sounding yeah.
Yeah.
Geoff (25:00):
And then approaching the two five, the minor two five.
Yeah, Just imagine that you'replaying one, two five.
Martin (25:15):
Yeah, so there I played, yeah, I played one and then a
2-5.
And there's a few differentways of doing that, yeah, I mean
yeah, so on the half diminishedchord, there I was playing, you
(25:35):
know, natural nine, and thenyou obviously could then make
the G7 sound altered.
So there's and I mean those areall theoretical things which
you know create different waysof creating different kinds of
melody.
You know different kinds ofharmony, different ways of
(25:55):
creating different kinds ofmelody.
You know different kinds ofharmony.
And, and obviously the last twothings were spelling out
different chords there,different ways of spelling
chords, whereas the first thingwe played, which was just that a
minor sixth, pentatonic, issomething that kind of fits,
it's a sound world, that kind offits over the top, yeah, which
you know, I mean that particularsound is a sound that you know
(26:17):
McCoy Tyner and John Coltraneused to play quite a lot, that
kind of minor sixth.
Yeah, it's kind of like a modaljazz technique or sound.
So all these things they giveyou different approaches to how
you're going to construct yourmelodic and harmonic approach.
Fabulous.
Geoff (26:38):
I've got a few quickfire questions for you.
Sure, some of them will beeasier to answer than others,
some of them will not.
Okay, starting off with what'syour favourite album.
Martin (26:49):
That is such a difficult question to answer.
Obviously, as you know,students ask me that question
quite a lot.
Yeah, I would say that myfavourite album is a record
called Tales of the Algonquin,which is by John Surman and John
Warren, and I'll tell you whythat's the case.
It's because, well, there'slots of reasons, but it has many
(27:11):
of my favourite jazz musicianson it, British jazz musicians on
it, British jazz musicians andmusicians from that period who
were active in Britain in thelate 60s, early 70s.
The improvising on that recordis amazing from all the players.
John Surman is a is a is afeatured performer on that
record, but all the music iswritten by his friend, John
(27:34):
Warren, who's a Canadiancomposer who is still around,
who lives in York and he's nowin his 80s.
He was very active on there inthe London jazz scene,
contemporary jazz scene in inthe 60s, John Warren, and so all
the music is by him.
So it's got this amazingcombination of fantastic open
improvising, differentapproaches to improvising, all
(27:57):
these different personalities ofthe musicians who play on that
record, plus these amazingcompositions.
So I'm also a massive fan ofcomposed music, jazz music and
big band writing, and JohnWarren is one of my heroes as a
writer, so it's got all of hisamazing music on this record.
I don't think I know JohnWarren is one of my heroes as a
writer, so it's got all of hisamazing music on this record.
(28:17):
I don't think I know JohnWarren.
Well, you better check him out.
Geoff (28:20):
I know Dave Warren.
Martin (28:23):
Yeah, I know Dave.
Warren too.
Yeah, there's a few greatWarrens.
We played a lot of JohnWarren's music when I was a
student at the Guildhall in thebig band with Scott.
I can remember the first piecesof his that we played and I
remember going up to Scott afterthe first rehearsal saying this
is amazing, this music, who'swritten this?
I'd never heard anything quitelike it was this.
It was very orchestral in itsapproach and it was very through
(28:46):
composed, you know.
So all these different sectionsof the music and different
sections for people to improviseon, they, people weren't
necessarily improvising on thesame chords and so on and so on.
So it was away from the sort ofthe tradition.
It was more in the Ellington orGil Evans kind of mould of jazz
composition, I suppose, asopposed to the Basie stream.
(29:10):
I love Count Basie as well, butit was certainly some writing
that I'd never really sort ofcome across at that point in my
life, and so I became a bitobsessed with John Warren's
music and, um, Stan Sulzmann,who I was studying with at the
time, we used to play in JohnWarren's band.
So I mentioned this to Stan,you know, and Stan said oh, you
(29:31):
know, I'll tell John that we'vegot this young person who's
really interesting.
So I then got this phone callfrom John Warren and he sent me
loads of his recordings.
That's how I started gettinginterested in his music, and
this particular record is quitea well-known one in British jazz
circles the Tales of theAlgonquin.
(29:51):
So it's all John Warren's music.
It's a great record.
I'll check that one out, therewe go.
That's a very long answer toyour first question.
Geoff (29:58):
That was, but it's a very thorough answer.
Is there a favourite musician,alive or dead, that you would
like to have played with?
Martin (30:05):
That's another great question.
Ah, so many.
I mean, I've been very lucky tohave played with some amazing
musicians, and again, somepeople that I, you know.
When I was listening to allthose records from the library,
you know, I heard all of theseamazing musicians and I've been
very lucky in my life that Iactually got to play with and to
(30:28):
know some of these people.
Bix Beiderb ecke He'ddefinitely be one from the early
jazz period.
Bix is one of my heroes as aperformer and as an improviser.
I think he was an incrediblyskilled improviser and ahead of
his time in lots of ways as anartist.
(30:50):
As an improviser, I would loveto play with him.
That's pre-Louis Armstrong.
Same time, same time, sort ofsame period, but yeah, Armstrong
would be another.
And Charlie Parker.
Yeah, he's probably high oneveryone's list, and John
Coltrane would be another, andthere were so many others Lee
(31:11):
Konitz, who we were just talkingabout, Warne Marsh there's some
other musicians who are heroesof mine, so the list is endless.
Geoff (31:20):
What would you say was the highlight of your career or
a best gig moment?
Martin (31:23):
so far?
That is also a very difficultquestion to answer.
There's been so many highlights.
Playing with your big band, atthe Pizza Express, and that's
not just because you happen tobe sitting opposite me, but but
playing with you, yeah, it'sdefinitely.
That's too kind but, surely nottrue?
it is true, it is true, um, andI mean that most sincerely.
(31:46):
Um, yeah, I was lucky to leadmy own group.
I had, um, I had a quartet umin the early 90s with Phil
Robson on guitar, who I was atGuildhall with, and we had a gig
at Ronnie's with that group,playing opposite the late Bob
Berg.
That was an interestingexperience, but that was the
(32:08):
first time that I'd led my owngroup at Ronnie's and so that
was obviously a particularlyimportant moment, I think, in my
career to sort of stand on thatstage and actually get
introduced.
This was when Ronnie was stillalive, so I actually got
introduced by Ronnie and he wasvery nice to me and everyone
else.
That was a particularlyimportant moment, I would say.
(32:29):
I don't know, there's so manyothers.
I mean it's just great beingasked to play actually, you know
, and to play actually you know,and to play with.
I've been very lucky to, as Iwas saying earlier on, to have
played with a lot of my musicalheroes from the British jazz
scene, hearing the records whenI was sort of younger and just
(32:50):
loving the music, and then whenyou actually get to meet them.
I was lucky to get to meet someof these people.
I played with Michael Garrickfor many years and he was
someone that I really lovedlistening to his music when I
was younger.
Harry Beckett, the trumpetplayer, was somebody else who
he's on that record that we weretalking about Tales of the
Algonquin and various otherthings, so he had this very
(33:12):
particular and special way ofplaying, great sound and feel.
And I can remember doing a gigwith Lionel as a student and
Lionel said, oh, the person onthe front line with you is going
to be Harry Beckett.
I remember getting incrediblyexcited and then we did this gig
and there I was.
I can remember just the magicof standing next to him and
hearing that sound.
The sound that I heard onrecords was there, it was.
(33:35):
It was right next to me and Iwas playing with this guy, you
know, and it was just amazingmagic.
Yeah, and I've had.
So I've been lucky that I'vehad a lot of those similar
experiences of various othergigs over the years.
Geoff (33:46):
So great.
What was the last concert youattended?
Martin (33:51):
I might have to think about that one.
I don't know.
I might have to think aboutthat one.
I don't know any gigs you'vebeen to in the last year, or
something most of the time it'sones that I've actually been
playing on, which sounds quitebad, but I think, partly because
I've been so busy with thingsthat I I'm not sort of getting
(34:18):
out that often to actually seeother people play, which is
something that I should try anddo more often.
Geoff (34:28):
Have there been some moments in your life, some gigs
that you've seen that have beeninfluential on you?
Martin (34:33):
Yeah, I mean I can absolutely.
Again, many.
We were talking about JohnWarren.
I remember going to see JohnSurman had this particular
project of his called The BrassProject, of which John Warren
wrote all the music, and theyhad a residency at Ronnie's
years ago and so I went.
I think I went three times inthe week to see that.
(34:55):
That was pretty amazingactually.
I mean that's just one examplethat springs to mind.
Seeing Ornette Coleman at theBarbican some years back and
being really amazed at the factthat he could still do it even
though he was getting on.
It took a little bit of time forthem to warm up.
(35:16):
I was there and I was thinking,oh, you know, there he was and
it was just amazing to see himlive.
And then he really startedplaying and I mean that was
amazing seeing him still beingable to just really make it up
as he went along.
I I'm also seeing Keith Jarretta couple of times, who's
another hero of mine and asimilar thing just sort of
(35:40):
seeing him in action and alsoseeing what we all go through,
which is kind of the ups anddowns of being in the spotlight
on the stage.
Like we were just talking about.
Ornette took a little bit oftime to warm up.
A couple of times I've seenKeith Jarrett where I got a
(36:03):
little feeling of that.
There was one gig at theFestival Hall where it was the
trio, the standards trio and Idon't think they were very happy
with the sound in the first set.
They were kind of feeling theirway a little bit and you could
kind of sense that maybe it allwasn't quite well.
And then the set sort offinished a little bit early and
then there was a very longinterval where I suspect they
(36:26):
were probably doing anothersound check or just sorting some
things out.
And then the second set wascompletely different.
They really went for it and itwas amazing
What is your musical weakness?
Well, it's a.
It's a thing I was saying umearlier on.
I when, when I first startedoff, my reading was very poor
(36:48):
and I think that has somethingto do with the fact that I used
my strong suit was always sortof playing things by ear and
having a good musical memory.
I think At home I did a lot ofplaying, which I would probably
describe as practicing, althoughI sometimes didn't practice the
things that some of my musicteachers were telling me that I
should be, but I certainly did alot of playing.
(37:08):
But yeah, I found it a littlebit tricky to start with to
understand music theory, andthat coincided with reading.
So I found reading sort ofchallenging.
It's something that I'veimproved on dramatically because
obviously you have to and Istarted playing in more and more
ensembles and the moresituations where I had to read,
(37:31):
obviously it gets better.
But that's something that Istill sometimes find quite
challenging, especially if Ihaven't done many reading gigs.
Geoff (37:39):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
Martin (37:41):
Yes, yeah, all the time.
I mean I think I've haddifferent periods of nervousness
, if that's the right way ofdescribing it.
When I was younger I used toget very nervous, particularly
in things like exams, not somuch on sort of concerts, but I
think when the pressure wasreally on, if I was having to
sort of you know really sort ofproduce something that was you
(38:03):
know sort of challenging in anexam situation, I used to get
pretty stressed out.
The more on top of the musicthat I was playing, in terms of
you know how well I'd prepared,the less nervous I was Then.
I've gone through variousperiods where I've always felt
pretty, pretty comfortable onstage and then I've had a few
(38:23):
sort of ups and downs as far asthat's concerned and sort of
some other factors in my life Ithink have affected my
confidence, you know, not justas a person, but that that also
sort of manifested itselfsometimes to being on stage
where I've I've I've been ableto play, but it's been I would
describe it as interference, youknow, not being able to
(38:46):
completely be focused on what,what it is I'm trying to do.
But that has got better.
So I'm, you know, I'm currentlyin a pretty good place as far
as that is concerned, and a lotof it, I think, for me is
personally down to, you know, mypreparation for, for playing
and even though we're talkinghere mostly about, you know,
(39:07):
improvisation.
My sort of key to a lot of myteaching is is is talking about
preparation for improvising.
You know, we don't quite knowwhat we're going to play when we
play, when we're playing jazz,but there's lots of different
ways that one could play and alot of those things can and
should be explored and practiseddifferent techniques.
(39:30):
Going back to the teaching thingthat we were talking about
earlier, I think that you knowI'm at my best when I when I'm,
you know, my technique is at itsbest playing wise and also in
terms of the mechanics of themusic.
But if I'm on top of that, thenI sort of I can really enjoy
myself and feel comfortableabout what I'm doing yeah,
Okay, a couple more slightlyoff topic questions for you.
(39:53):
What's your favorite sandwich?
Every day is different, fishy sandwiches are always good
.
I like fish, tuna or somethingtuna sandwich or some
description.
Geoff (40:09):
What about a favourite movie?
Martin (40:10):
Where do I start with that?
Goodbye.
Mr Chips has always been afavourite of mine.
You like the oldies?
Yeah, I do like that film.
I just think Robert Donat, whoplays the role of the teacher in
that film and who ages you knowbrilliantly as the story goes
on, I think that's an amazingperformance.
I really enjoyed that film.
(40:32):
I also like lots of films withwith Michael Caine in Educating
Rita, that's a good film.
Geoff (40:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah uh, is there a favorite venue that you
like to play in?
Martin (40:42):
From a jazz point of view.
Yeah, I mean, there's always.
For me there's always somethingspecial about playing at
Ronnie's, I would say, justbecause it's that you know it's
hallowed turf and I suppose youknow as a as a British jazz
musician, that is the placewhere you one always sort of
wants to be yeah at, so I alwaysget a particularly sort of
(41:04):
special buzz about playing there.
Geoff (41:07):
What about a favorite country or a city?
Martin (41:10):
I've always really liked being in France, just because
of the vibe.
You know, whenever I've beenlucky enough to play in Europe
I've played in Europe quite alot you seem to be treated with
a lot of respect as a musicianwhen you're in Europe.
Well, you know this, don't you?
You know it's seen as somethingspecial If you're a musician.
People want to know you andthey're really interested.
(41:33):
They are, oh, really, you're amusician?
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, and sometimes here wedon't quite get that.
Yeah, is that really your job?
And what do you do during theday?
Geoff (41:42):
What's your real job?
Martin (41:43):
Exactly, all that sort of thing.
Geoff (41:45):
One last question what's your favorite chord?
Martin (41:48):
What a question that is.
I don't know whichever one I'mon at the time.
Geoff (41:59):
Thanks for the great playing and the years of
inspiration as a teacher and forlooking after my Lewis as well
at school.
Thank you very much, Martin.
It's lovely to see you.
Nice to see you too, and we'llplay together in December when
we have some more Big Band.
We sure will, if not before.
Absolutely All right see yousoon.
Cheers, bye, bye.
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