July 17, 2025 • 24 mins
Geoff heads east to Essex to catch up with an old friend — the award-winning jazz saxophonist, bandleader, arranger, and recording engineer Derek Nash.
What happens when a lifelong love of saxophone meets decades of sound engineering expertise? Derek Nash's musical journey provides the perfect answer.
From the moment 12-year-old Derek heard the Pink Panther theme played by a tenor saxophonist during his father's BBC radio broadcast, his path was set. Though his career would take a 20-year detour through the technical corridors of BBC sound engineering, music remained his true calling. Eventually, Derek left the BBC to establish his own recording studio (the aptly named ‘Clowns Pocket’) and pursue his saxophone career full-time.
The conversation reveals Derek as both a consummate musician and skilled sound engineer with remarkable stories of recording some of Britain's jazz legends. He speaks fondly of producing Jamie Cullum's first album, working with George Melly, Digby Fairweather, and creating multiple albums with Stan Tracey. His technical expertise combined with musical sensitivity made him particularly skilled at working with singers, developing a diplomatic language to guide performances while maintaining creative relationships.
When discussing improvisation, he offers fascinating insights into how jazz vocabulary develops through listening and transcription. His approach to soloing has evolved to become as natural as driving – focused on the musical journey rather than technical mechanics. During a performance of Gerry Mulligan's 1950s standard ‘Walkin' Shoes’ (accompanied by the Quartet app), he demonstrates his creative process, explaining how he thinks about theme and variation, melody contour, and responsive playing.
The conversation concludes with quick-fire questions that reveal Nash's personality beyond music – from favourite sandwiches to performing at the Royal Albert Hall, his preference for flat ninth chords, and his excellent advice for young musicians: "Play any kind of music anywhere…” to discover preferences and build valuable networks.
Join us for this illuminating conversation with one of Britain's most versatile saxophonists, whose musical journey continues to evolve after decades in the jazz world. Whether you're a musician seeking inspiration or simply love the stories behind the music, Derek Nash delivers wisdom, warmth and musical insights in equal measure.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here.
Today I'm in Essex and I'm onmy way to see a great friend of
mine, great saxophone player,band leader, good bloke, Derek
Nash.
I've known Derek for many, many, many years and I'm actually
doing a gig with him tonight.
We're going to have a chatabout practising, teaching, all
(00:27):
sorts of things.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:45):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,Taking your jazz play along to
another level
Geoff (00:54):
Today my guest is, my great friend
Derek Nash.
Oh, good day.
Lovely to be here.
How are you today?
Yeah, good.
Derek (00:58):
Excellent Sun is shining.
Spring's about to happen.
It's a beautiful day, isn't it?
Spring is here and we're goingto do a yeah good, excellent Sun
is shining, spring's about tohappen, it's a beautiful day,
isn't?
It yeah, spring is here.
Geoff (01:05):
And we're going to do a gig tonight too.
Derek (01:07):
We certainly are.
We've got my quintet playingtonight with Sebastiaan de Krom,
the fabulous David Newton andthe lovely Martin Shaw.
Fantastic.
And there's a very fine bassplayer on the gig as well.
Geoff (01:17):
I thought we'd just start with a little chat.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do and
what you've achieved so far inyour life Wow.
Derek (01:25):
How long have you got?
I've had all sorts of differentmusical jackets on over the
years.
I started out playing saxophoneat about the age of 12,
persuaded my dad to buy me one.
Saxophone was purely down tothe joy of the Pink Panther.
About 12 years old I went tohear my dad's band and they were
doing a radio broadcast therewith the BBC Northern Dance
Orchestra.
Geoff (01:45):
So your dad was an arranger, wasn't he?
Yeah?
Derek (01:46):
he was mainly arranger.
He obviously played piano aswell and did quite a lot of gigs
himself.
So I grew up listening to pianoaround the house all the time
and he was a great one forchords and voicings and things
like that.
So I just turned up and it washalf term.
Go with your dad to work.
So I had to sit and listen to a16, 17 piece big band playing
(02:07):
and the Pink Panther film hadjust come out and Gary Cox,
amazing tenor player, wasplaying the Pink Panther theme
for a recording for radio.
Probably the light program inthose days as it was called and
I just thought that's what Iwant to do.
So from then onwards, joinedschools bands, went to
university, actually did anacoustics course at university.
All got complicated because Icouldn't do physics, maths and
(02:29):
music at school as A level.
So my parents said we'll getanother string to your bow.
So I thought the next bestthing is acoustics.
Joined the BBC, did 20 oddyears of there as a sound
assistant to a sound engineer,becoming a deputy sound
supervisor, mainly in television, though, so not necessarily
music all the time.
They had its own music studioat the BBC called TMS, which was
(02:50):
based at Shepherds Bush and Igot involved in that so we were
recording the music that wasthen used on television
programmes.
So worked an awful lot withpeople like Ronnie Hazlehurst
and doing music for HettyWainthropp and Last of the
Summer Wine with Jack Em Emblowon accordion.
We used to have a little jokeabout probably the richest
person that was ever walkingthrough the gates of a
television centre was probablyRonnie.
Hazlehurst because he had somany amazing television
(03:13):
signature tunes all going at thesame time.
Playing saxophone justcontinued throughout all of this
.
I was notorious at the BBC fordisappearing on Saturday nights
and swapping shifts.
Disappearing on Saturday nightsand swapping shifts.
I can't do Match of the DaySaturday night, because I've got
a gig.
Can I do your Blue Peter onTuesday instead?
All that kind of um.
So eventually, um, I quit theBBC to run my recording studio
(03:33):
and play saxophone full time.
I had this kind of earlymidlife crisis.
That said, I don't want to beone of those people that thought
I wonder if I could just playsaxophone all the time and here
I am 20 odd years later playingsaxophone all the time and here.
I am, 20-odd years later,playing saxophone all the time.
Geoff (03:45):
There you go, and your studio was called Clowns Pocket,
wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Derek (03:49):
Great name.
It's got several meanings, butbasically something you know.
It looks like a normal tinylittle space pocket on the
outside and it's much bigger andall sorts of magical things
happen within it and thereweren't there.
oh gosh, I mean uh you broughtJamie Cullum to me.
We did the first, the firstever Jamie Cullum album.
And then he came back to me andsaid look, I want to do an
album in my own right but Ican't afford it.
(04:10):
I don't know what to do.
So I I just knew, you know hewas one of those that you just
knew he was great.
So I said, look, come andrecord it.
You will get a deal and I'llget paid eventually.
I don't care.
So I like to think I kind ofhelped him get up there.
And then we did George Mellyalbums with Digby Fairweather
and Georgie Fame turned up atcertain times.
All sorts of people have beenin and out.
(04:31):
Stan Tracey.
I did at least three, maybefour albums for Stan Tracey
which was an amazing thing to doas well.
Geoff (04:38):
And also, you're good with singers, aren't you?
Derek (04:39):
Yeah, I've worked with so many singers, you develop a
sort of little language of howto be polite.
Well, I don't think it was agreat take.
So you kind of subtly suggestmaybe we'll just do a couple
more takes of that bridge, justin case.
Can we just guide this?
There is a whole soundengineering art.
I mean, it's people managementand that is what running a
(05:00):
recording studio is all about.
It is yeah, I found out when Imoved house.
I have an enormous bucket ofCDs.
I mean it's huge.
It's the kind of thing that youtake when you're moving house
and I've made every single oneof those albums.
It's hundreds, it's thousandsof albums and EPs and stuff I've
recorded over the years.
Geoff (05:19):
So it's been an incredible thing.
That's a big legacy, isn't it?
Yeah, so, getting back to yourplaying, what's your earliest
memory of improvising, forexample?
Derek (05:26):
Well, no one told me I couldn't improvise and I used to
sit with my dad's band.
It was called the WallyMacKenzie Dance Band, Melody
Maker Runner Band of the Year1954.
I used to say that on the backof the cards.
It always made me smile, thatdid.
I sat next to the othersaxophone players so they would
play a melody or a chorus orsomething, or September in the
Rain, or something like that,and then they'd improvise and I
(05:47):
would just hear this happen andthought, what are you doing?
He said, well, I'm just,instead of the tune, I'm making
up my own tune at this moment.
So no one told me I couldn'timprovise.
I thought, oh, that's what youdo.
Geoff (05:57):
Once you were improvising .
How did you learn?
How did you get a vocabulary?
Derek (06:05):
I think the most important thing is to listen to
thousands of other players andthen transcribe it and then try
and copy it, because basicallyit's like learning new words.
Every time you hear a new wordyou try and use it, and then you
have to use it sensibly.
In a sentence, I discoveredSonny Stitt before I discovered
Charlie Parker, and so a friendof my dad's lent me a cassette
and when I heard Charlie ParkerI just thought, oh, he's just a
Sonny Stitt imitator.
(06:25):
And then I started to go alittle bit sideways.
I was listening to pop music aswell, and then Steely Dan.
Then I suddenly saw VictorFeldman was on Steely Dan albums
and I ended up with a school'sband and we ended up playing at
the Albert Hall and Ronnie Scottwas our guest.
It was called the School'sProms.
So we all went down to RonnieScott's club, we begged him.
Could we go?
You know a bunch of 13,14-year-olds and he let us all
(06:46):
in and Victor Feldman was onthat night with his trio.
So I got to hear Victor Feldmanand kind of like the gates of
heaven opened, wow.
And I was going forward andbackwards at the same time.
So Weather Report and DavidSanborn were appearing at one
end of the spectrum and theearly smooth jazz people like
Grover Washington Jr and RonnieLaws, but then also I was going
(07:08):
Sonny Stitt, Charlie Parker,Dizzy Gillespie, Art Pepper,
Hank Mobley.
So I was kind of just I justcouldn't believe there was all
this stuff and I needed tolisten to all of it and I needed
to somehow absorb it.
Geoff (07:21):
So what about instruments then?
Were you playing tenor or alto,or which saxophone were you
playing?
Derek (07:25):
Originally I was an alto player and then I was alto and
soprano in the early version ofSax Appeal, which is the
eight-piece band I still run.
And that's still what it'snearly 50 years now 50?
, 50 years of Sax Appeal.
I was at school when I started.
Wow, that's crazy yeahsaxophone was the sax section of
the youth big band that Iplayed in, which is called
(07:45):
Stockport School Stage Sound, soyou just thought I don't need
the brass I don't need the brassjust on the saxophone just five
saxophones, piano, bass, drums.
It's a big band without trumpetsand trombones.
That's what Sax Appeal wasright and that was really
inspired.
We used to do school tripsevery year to go and see the
Buddy Rich Big Band and justhearing Buddy Rich play, swing,
play, funk, funk.
They were doing Birdland andSteve Marcus was in the band.
(08:06):
Bob Mintzer was the firstbaritone player I ever saw with
him.
Andy Fusco on the alto thosepeople that was another massive
awakening for me.
Geoff (08:15):
So what age would you have been at?
Derek (08:16):
this point, Probably 15, 16 by then.
Wow, two or three years intoplaying, I mean, the band I was
playing was still doing In theMood and String of Pearls and
things like that, but we werejust beginning to play a couple
of Chicago things 25, 6 to 4,and things like this.
So I was beginning to learnabout all of that stuff.
Geoff (08:35):
Were there seminal albums that you'd listened to around
this time?
Is there particular ones thatyou would count as memorable
albums?
Derek (08:42):
I mean certainly Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section
was absolutely massive.
Hank Mobley's Soul Station wasmassive.
Something else actually, whichwas the Cannonball Adley, Miles
Davis, that for me, was abovesome of the Miles Davis sextet
albums there's something aboutthat album.
There's something else about it.
Then I remember somebody givingme the Coltrane Meets
(09:05):
Cannonball and that really didblow my head.
Geoff (09:07):
Yeah, also had a really early love of progressive rock
as well so Camel Caravan,Genesis and I know you loved
10cc as well, like I do 10ccabsolutely adored 10cc.
Derek (09:20):
I had kind of felt an affinity because they were based
in Stockport and I was born inStockport.
So the original StrawberryStudios was in Stockport and
then when the Northern DanceOrchestra couldn't record where
they normally recorded, theywent to Strawberry Studios to
record there.
So I went there, stood in thatroom and they owned that studio,
didn't they?
Geoff (09:39):
They owned that studio.
Derek (09:40):
Sat there.
I've touched the desk that I'mNot In Love was recorded on
Absolutely sat there.
Geoff (09:43):
I've touched the desk that I'm Not In Love was
recorded on, absolutelyfantastic.
Derek (09:45):
Amazing, so I used to love all of those, and probably
the pop band I saw more thananything else was 10cc Wow.
Geoff (09:58):
So, have you thought about a standard you might want
to play today?
Derek (10:01):
I had a quick look through the list.
Boy is it comprehensive.
It's fantastic.
Geoff (10:04):
It looks like you've got your baritone out there.
So are we thinking about GerryMulligan a bit here.
Derek (10:08):
Which Mulligans have you got?
Geoff (10:09):
Let's have a look here.
Derek (10:10):
I know Bernie's Tune's in there, I've seen that.
Geoff (10:12):
So I'm just typing in Gerry Mulligan and anything
that's associated with GerryMulligan, I'm Getting
Sentimental Over You, Line forLyons.
Oh yeah, that's specific of him, isn't it?
Let me go down the list here.
Walking Shoes, oh yeah.
Yeah, that's a nice one, isn'tit?
Yeah, okay, do you want to playthat one?
Derek (10:33):
Yeah, why not?
Geoff (10:34):
We're going to play two choruses of Walking Shoes by
Gerry Mulligan.
Did he write this?
Yes, Derek's going to behinting at the tune.
He won't be playing the tune.
He's going to hint at the tuneand we'll talk about it
afterwards.
So here we go.
All right, recognise that drum.
(10:55):
Thank you.
Thank you, that was reallygreat.
I love the way you hinted atthe tune there, but you kind of
(13:02):
played it round the other way.
Derek (13:04):
Yeah, so, just talking as a jazzer, a melody is just a
bucket full of ideas.
Yeah, so each single fragmentof the melody, be it two notes,
three notes, four notes, eightnotes, can all be used as your
bucket of ideas.
So you play with the rhythm,you play with the pitch, you
play with the volume of it, youplay with the contour of it.
Contour is something peopledon't think about, so for a
(13:25):
phrase goes but, but, but, dothat, but, but, but, but.
So you just think I can imaginethe contour, the shape of those
three notes, and then you headup like that.
Yeah, so if you just keepexpanding the contour or take it
lower or do exactly the samething, the opposite direction,
yeah, playing around with thecontour of a phrase, for me is
is great fun and it's alwaysworth exploring and trying to do
(13:46):
something yeah, great.
Geoff (13:49):
So what were you thinking about in mid-flow then?
Was anything particular goingthrough your mind?
Derek (13:54):
It is funny because I do treat jazz these days as almost
like you're driving a car.
You don't think about the nutsand bolts, you just look at the
road ahead and you do what'srequired to safely negotiate
that road.
Geoff (14:08):
So does that analogy like sometimes I don't remember
driving home, you don't rememberthe solo?
Derek (14:14):
No, you don't remember, I don't know what I played.
I know I took the melody and Isort of turned it upside down.
So rather than going so, I tookthe rhythm and turned it upside
down and then I kind of listento what I've played and then
start, because I'm very much atheme and variations guy.
So I'll listen to what I playedand use that.
(14:35):
And then I've also got thisidea of the shape of the tune
and what chords are coming upand as we're approaching the
bridge, my brain has alreadydecided a nice little phrase to
start the first chord of thebridge.
I'm actually thinking in thenew key.
So my finger muscle memory hasthought about what I'm going to
(14:57):
play and then?
Geoff (14:58):
well, that will.
That will give you an idea forwhat to play next.
Derek (15:01):
Yes, yeah, usually.
And then, uh, because this appuses human beings and he not
some of those I won't usedisparaging words, but less
spiritually satisfying apps thatplay backings.
I'm getting ideas because it'sGraham Harvey on piano.
It is yeah, and it's wonderful.
So if you leave a tiny bit ofspace in your solo with this app
(15:24):
, I heard something to bounceback off, and I did.
I heard Graham just do a littlefill or something.
He just suddenly wentdiddle-a-dum and I heard this
lovely four-note thing and it'sjust like having a real band
behind you.
And in which case I can do that,and it moves up to the ride
cymbal for the second chorus.
Geoff (15:40):
No, it doesn't.
That was me miming it, but itwent into four.
So traditionally what happens inthese tunes, most of the tunes
will be two choruses.
The first chorus will be thebass playing in two, the second
will be in four.
So it just gives it that kindof moving into the next gear
kind of vibe.
Derek (15:55):
Well, that's so much better than any other app that
I've ever worked with.
Just that alone gives you achance, and then your solo will
be different because you've gota different bass part going
underneath it.
Yeah, this is true.
Geoff (16:07):
And of course you can loop it as many times, but the
loop will go from the foursections, so from the swingy bit
.
It will loop as many times asyou want.
And you can also see I forgotto mention you can see the
chords display in real time inB-flat or E-flat.
Derek (16:29):
Oh, now you tell me the chords are available to look at.
Oh, it's just so long becausewe got this quartet, we have
this Gerry Mulligan pianolessquartet album to still come out.
That's going to come out thisyear, isn't?
It is going to come out thisyear, and it's one of those
things.
We recorded it pre-lockdown, ohmy god, and I mixed it during
lockdown, and then I gotinvolved with other things and
other things happened in in mylife and and it just sat on the
back burner and actually I wasinspired by some incredible
artwork by Alban Low and Isuddenly thought I have to put
(16:51):
this album out.
So it's going to come out, andthat's one of the tunes on the
album, or certainly one of thetunes that we used to do with
that quartet.
Yeah, so let's get back todoing some of those.
It's such a great idea.
When's that going to come outthen?
Um, I would say September,October, and then we'll probably
tour it early next year January, February, 26.
Fantastic, we'll try and getfive or six gigs together with
(17:12):
it that'll be really good funamazing.
Now on this appif I wanted to emulate that, can
I turn the piano player off andjust have bass and drums?
Of course you can Derek ofcourse you can.
Okay, so I can actually emulate.
Yeah, even with another hornplayer we could do the Gerry
Mulligan, Chet Baker pianolessversions of these.
We could yeah.
Sadly sorry, Mr Graham Harvey,because you are so talented,
turning you off.
Geoff (17:32):
Great, OK, there's another one on here.
Actually, I want to show youJust bear with a second.
I remember playing a bassintroduction and I think it
might be Line for Lyons.
Let me just try this.
Oh yeah, that's the one youthought we were playing first.
Derek (18:01):
That's the one I thought we were playing first Because
you'd mentioned it.
So obviously I'm subconscious,and they're both in G as well,
aren't they?
Geoff (18:07):
They're both in G, so you'll probably find fragments
of both as you speak.
I just turned off the piano soyou can have this.
So it'll sound like thisInstantly, you've got instant
Gerry Mulligan, instant GerryMulligan.
That's fantastic.
And then I'm going to put thepiano back in.
Hold on.
There's the piano.
(18:28):
Yeah, we can also have asoloist in here.
I forget who's soloing on thisone, but I need to be on the
internet.
I'm not the internet, so Ican't do that.
Okay, anyway, so but thatfacility is available.
Derek (18:44):
Oh, stop, stop, stop, sorry, that facility is
available to actually have asoloist.
Geoff (18:47):
Yes, so you have a soloist on there.
Derek (18:50):
So if you're a piano player and you want to comp
along with a soloist, you can dothat with a decent bass,
drummer, so it's just as equallyvalid.
Geoff (18:56):
You can do that, or even be a bass player.
That's true, yeah.
Derek (18:59):
Okay.
Geoff (19:01):
I was thinking about doing a couple of quickfire
questions to end it.
Your favourite sandwich?
Derek (19:09):
Usually some sort of cheese and pickle.
I'll always go for that,although saying that anything,
Coronation Chicken.
Geoff (19:13):
Oh, okay.
Your favourite venue to play.
Derek (19:17):
There's something amazing about doing the Albert Hall
Now.
I know that sounds a bit crass,but yeah, no, that's true.
Geoff (19:24):
Favourite country or city ?
Derek (19:27):
Rome or Seville.
Okay.
Geoff (19:31):
This is one that my daughter suggested.
Favourite chord.
Derek (19:34):
Favourite chord.
I love flat nines because youcan then use diminished and rip
around all over the place.
Yep, that's a good answer, andthey're just sexy enough, but
you can still play all the rootsand get away with over the
place.
Yep, that's a good answer, andthey're just sexy enough, but
you can still play all the rootsand get away with it as well.
Geoff (19:47):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
When was the last time?
Derek (19:51):
Yes, but very rarely.
I do remember being on the mainstage at Glastonbury with Jools
, which was pretty amazing.
Geoff (20:00):
Yeah.
Derek (20:01):
And we were only doing an hour set and we normally do a
two hour set.
Yeah, started playing the intro.
Oh gosh, that was butterflies.
(20:23):
I suddenly realized, a mainstage at Glastonbury.
I was going to have to do thisand it was being televised live
as well yeah so I think that wasthe last time I got nervous.
And sometimes actually the tinylittle venues if I've got new
music, yeah, I actually getquite nervous because you've got
real jack.
You see, you might Joolsplaying to thousands of people,
(20:43):
but no, they've paid a lot ofmoney to see Jools with their.
I know the gig's going to workand everyone's going to have a
good time.
Yeah, when it's your music thatyou really care about, yeah,
that's a bit different.
Geoff (20:52):
Yeah, yeah, um, what would you say is your musical
weakness?
Derek (20:57):
Oh, sight reading, sight reading I'm not a great sight
reader.
Um, I never did it very often.
So you know me, Geoff, if I doany gig, I will always ask for
the charts in advance.
I don't mind doing my homework.
I'll do my stuff, but don'tjust throw stuff in front of me
and expect it to happen.
Geoff (21:13):
Okay, okay, excellent.
What was the last concert youattended?
Derek (21:18):
I've been out a couple of times recently, but it's both
comedians.
I went to see Jimmy Carr andJack Dee over the last month,
but I haven't seen any bands.
Isn't that terrible?
I was at a festival not so longback and I saw Beth Hart and I
just thought she was amazing.
Geoff (21:32):
That's a good one.
Yeah, excellent.
Any advice for young musiciansstarting out?
Derek (21:37):
Play any kind of music anywhere.
Grab any musical opportunity,even if you think it's a genre
that you would not normally playor not even enjoy.
One of two things will happen.
You'll actually either discoverit's not the genre for you, but
you've got to try it, and thesecond thing that's going to
happen is you're going to meetall sorts of like-minded musical
(21:59):
people that are perfectly happyto try out any musical, and the
networking that you do by justtaking any gig anywhere and
trying stuff out will be amazing.
Geoff (22:08):
Excellent.
Who or what was your biggestinfluence?
Derek (22:13):
Well, my biggest influence is the love child that
doesn't exist, but if DavidSanborn and Cannonball Adderly
had one, that would be it,
Don't you think the altosaxophone is amazing.
It's the one instrument that youknow.
You compare Paul Desmond toDavid Sanborn, and and how it's
like a completely differentinstrument, isn't?
It it's completely amazing itis completely different.
(22:33):
Wow, uh, and I actually, I find pawns.
.
find In Jools hardest.
Even though I started first, 12years old, started on alto,
yeah, I still find it the mostchallenging.
It's it's it's the mistressthat gives you most grief, wow,
um, but I love it But you playalto in Jools band, don't you
exclusively?
Geoff (22:50):
yeah, do you wish you played the other pawns um,
because J J because
Derek (22:55):
Uh, in a weird way, I'd quite enjoy playing baritone
with Jools because it's kind ofrhythm and blues bass, so
there's lots of fantastic.
You really feel you're holdingthe whole section.
Yeah, then again I'd love totake all the big roaring tenor
solos, and when I go out withpeople like Ben Waters I just
play tenor all night and groundaway and jump around the stage
and have a good time.
Geoff (23:14):
So, okay, fantastic.
And one last one your favouritealbum.
I think I know what you'regoing to say, but I think I know
what you're going to say.
Derek (23:22):
It could be Soul Station, Soul Station or something else,
yeah.
Geoff (23:27):
Excellent.
Thank you so much for comingtoday.
Absolute pleasure and it's beenreally, really good fun.
I'll see you soon, Great Thanks.
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Geoff Bye.
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Quartet for iOS, taking yourjazz play along to another level
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(23:53):
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Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here.
Today I'm in Essex and I'm onmy way to see a great friend of
mine, great saxophone player,band leader, good bloke, Derek
Nash.
I've known Derek for many, many, many years and I'm actually
doing a gig with him tonight.
We're going to have a chatabout practising, teaching, all
(00:27):
sorts of things.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:45):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,Taking your jazz play along to
another level
Geoff (00:54):
Today my guest is, my great friend
Derek Nash.
Oh, good day.
Lovely to be here.
How are you today?
Yeah, good.
Derek (00:58):
Excellent Sun is shining.
Spring's about to happen.
It's a beautiful day, isn't it?
Spring is here and we're goingto do a yeah good, excellent Sun
is shining, spring's about tohappen, it's a beautiful day,
isn't?
It yeah, spring is here.
Geoff (01:05):
And we're going to do a gig tonight too.
Derek (01:07):
We certainly are.
We've got my quintet playingtonight with Sebastiaan de Krom,
the fabulous David Newton andthe lovely Martin Shaw.
Fantastic.
And there's a very fine bassplayer on the gig as well.
Geoff (01:17):
I thought we'd just start with a little chat.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do and
what you've achieved so far inyour life Wow.
Derek (01:25):
How long have you got?
I've had all sorts of differentmusical jackets on over the
years.
I started out playing saxophoneat about the age of 12,
persuaded my dad to buy me one.
Saxophone was purely down tothe joy of the Pink Panther.
About 12 years old I went tohear my dad's band and they were
doing a radio broadcast therewith the BBC Northern Dance
Orchestra.
Geoff (01:45):
So your dad was an arranger, wasn't he?
Yeah?
Derek (01:46):
he was mainly arranger.
He obviously played piano aswell and did quite a lot of gigs
himself.
So I grew up listening to pianoaround the house all the time
and he was a great one forchords and voicings and things
like that.
So I just turned up and it washalf term.
Go with your dad to work.
So I had to sit and listen to a16, 17 piece big band playing
(02:07):
and the Pink Panther film hadjust come out and Gary Cox,
amazing tenor player, wasplaying the Pink Panther theme
for a recording for radio.
Probably the light program inthose days as it was called and
I just thought that's what Iwant to do.
So from then onwards, joinedschools bands, went to
university, actually did anacoustics course at university.
All got complicated because Icouldn't do physics, maths and
(02:29):
music at school as A level.
So my parents said we'll getanother string to your bow.
So I thought the next bestthing is acoustics.
Joined the BBC, did 20 oddyears of there as a sound
assistant to a sound engineer,becoming a deputy sound
supervisor, mainly in television, though, so not necessarily
music all the time.
They had its own music studioat the BBC called TMS, which was
(02:50):
based at Shepherds Bush and Igot involved in that so we were
recording the music that wasthen used on television
programmes.
So worked an awful lot withpeople like Ronnie Hazlehurst
and doing music for HettyWainthropp and Last of the
Summer Wine with Jack Em Emblowon accordion.
We used to have a little jokeabout probably the richest
person that was ever walkingthrough the gates of a
television centre was probablyRonnie.
Hazlehurst because he had somany amazing television
(03:13):
signature tunes all going at thesame time.
Playing saxophone justcontinued throughout all of this
.
I was notorious at the BBC fordisappearing on Saturday nights
and swapping shifts.
Disappearing on Saturday nightsand swapping shifts.
I can't do Match of the DaySaturday night, because I've got
a gig.
Can I do your Blue Peter onTuesday instead?
All that kind of um.
So eventually, um, I quit theBBC to run my recording studio
(03:33):
and play saxophone full time.
I had this kind of earlymidlife crisis.
That said, I don't want to beone of those people that thought
I wonder if I could just playsaxophone all the time and here
I am 20 odd years later playingsaxophone all the time and here.
I am, 20-odd years later,playing saxophone all the time.
Geoff (03:45):
There you go, and your studio was called Clowns Pocket,
wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Derek (03:49):
Great name.
It's got several meanings, butbasically something you know.
It looks like a normal tinylittle space pocket on the
outside and it's much bigger andall sorts of magical things
happen within it and thereweren't there.
oh gosh, I mean uh you broughtJamie Cullum to me.
We did the first, the firstever Jamie Cullum album.
And then he came back to me andsaid look, I want to do an
album in my own right but Ican't afford it.
(04:10):
I don't know what to do.
So I I just knew, you know hewas one of those that you just
knew he was great.
So I said, look, come andrecord it.
You will get a deal and I'llget paid eventually.
I don't care.
So I like to think I kind ofhelped him get up there.
And then we did George Mellyalbums with Digby Fairweather
and Georgie Fame turned up atcertain times.
All sorts of people have beenin and out.
(04:31):
Stan Tracey.
I did at least three, maybefour albums for Stan Tracey
which was an amazing thing to doas well.
Geoff (04:38):
And also, you're good with singers, aren't you?
Derek (04:39):
Yeah, I've worked with so many singers, you develop a
sort of little language of howto be polite.
Well, I don't think it was agreat take.
So you kind of subtly suggestmaybe we'll just do a couple
more takes of that bridge, justin case.
Can we just guide this?
There is a whole soundengineering art.
I mean, it's people managementand that is what running a
(05:00):
recording studio is all about.
It is yeah, I found out when Imoved house.
I have an enormous bucket ofCDs.
I mean it's huge.
It's the kind of thing that youtake when you're moving house
and I've made every single oneof those albums.
It's hundreds, it's thousandsof albums and EPs and stuff I've
recorded over the years.
Geoff (05:19):
So it's been an incredible thing.
That's a big legacy, isn't it?
Yeah, so, getting back to yourplaying, what's your earliest
memory of improvising, forexample?
Derek (05:26):
Well, no one told me I couldn't improvise and I used to
sit with my dad's band.
It was called the WallyMacKenzie Dance Band, Melody
Maker Runner Band of the Year1954.
I used to say that on the backof the cards.
It always made me smile, thatdid.
I sat next to the othersaxophone players so they would
play a melody or a chorus orsomething, or September in the
Rain, or something like that,and then they'd improvise and I
(05:47):
would just hear this happen andthought, what are you doing?
He said, well, I'm just,instead of the tune, I'm making
up my own tune at this moment.
So no one told me I couldn'timprovise.
I thought, oh, that's what youdo.
Geoff (05:57):
Once you were improvising .
How did you learn?
How did you get a vocabulary?
Derek (06:05):
I think the most important thing is to listen to
thousands of other players andthen transcribe it and then try
and copy it, because basicallyit's like learning new words.
Every time you hear a new wordyou try and use it, and then you
have to use it sensibly.
In a sentence, I discoveredSonny Stitt before I discovered
Charlie Parker, and so a friendof my dad's lent me a cassette
and when I heard Charlie ParkerI just thought, oh, he's just a
Sonny Stitt imitator.
(06:25):
And then I started to go alittle bit sideways.
I was listening to pop music aswell, and then Steely Dan.
Then I suddenly saw VictorFeldman was on Steely Dan albums
and I ended up with a school'sband and we ended up playing at
the Albert Hall and Ronnie Scottwas our guest.
It was called the School'sProms.
So we all went down to RonnieScott's club, we begged him.
Could we go?
You know a bunch of 13,14-year-olds and he let us all
(06:46):
in and Victor Feldman was onthat night with his trio.
So I got to hear Victor Feldmanand kind of like the gates of
heaven opened, wow.
And I was going forward andbackwards at the same time.
So Weather Report and DavidSanborn were appearing at one
end of the spectrum and theearly smooth jazz people like
Grover Washington Jr and RonnieLaws, but then also I was going
(07:08):
Sonny Stitt, Charlie Parker,Dizzy Gillespie, Art Pepper,
Hank Mobley.
So I was kind of just I justcouldn't believe there was all
this stuff and I needed tolisten to all of it and I needed
to somehow absorb it.
Geoff (07:21):
So what about instruments then?
Were you playing tenor or alto,or which saxophone were you
playing?
Derek (07:25):
Originally I was an alto player and then I was alto and
soprano in the early version ofSax Appeal, which is the
eight-piece band I still run.
And that's still what it'snearly 50 years now 50?
, 50 years of Sax Appeal.
I was at school when I started.
Wow, that's crazy yeahsaxophone was the sax section of
the youth big band that Iplayed in, which is called
(07:45):
Stockport School Stage Sound, soyou just thought I don't need
the brass I don't need the brassjust on the saxophone just five
saxophones, piano, bass, drums.
It's a big band without trumpetsand trombones.
That's what Sax Appeal wasright and that was really
inspired.
We used to do school tripsevery year to go and see the
Buddy Rich Big Band and justhearing Buddy Rich play, swing,
play, funk, funk.
They were doing Birdland andSteve Marcus was in the band.
(08:06):
Bob Mintzer was the firstbaritone player I ever saw with
him.
Andy Fusco on the alto thosepeople that was another massive
awakening for me.
Geoff (08:15):
So what age would you have been at?
Derek (08:16):
this point, Probably 15, 16 by then.
Wow, two or three years intoplaying, I mean, the band I was
playing was still doing In theMood and String of Pearls and
things like that, but we werejust beginning to play a couple
of Chicago things 25, 6 to 4,and things like this.
So I was beginning to learnabout all of that stuff.
Geoff (08:35):
Were there seminal albums that you'd listened to around
this time?
Is there particular ones thatyou would count as memorable
albums?
Derek (08:42):
I mean certainly Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section
was absolutely massive.
Hank Mobley's Soul Station wasmassive.
Something else actually, whichwas the Cannonball Adley, Miles
Davis, that for me, was abovesome of the Miles Davis sextet
albums there's something aboutthat album.
There's something else about it.
Then I remember somebody givingme the Coltrane Meets
(09:05):
Cannonball and that really didblow my head.
Geoff (09:07):
Yeah, also had a really early love of progressive rock
as well so Camel Caravan,Genesis and I know you loved
10cc as well, like I do 10ccabsolutely adored 10cc.
Derek (09:20):
I had kind of felt an affinity because they were based
in Stockport and I was born inStockport.
So the original StrawberryStudios was in Stockport and
then when the Northern DanceOrchestra couldn't record where
they normally recorded, theywent to Strawberry Studios to
record there.
So I went there, stood in thatroom and they owned that studio,
didn't they?
Geoff (09:39):
They owned that studio.
Derek (09:40):
Sat there.
I've touched the desk that I'mNot In Love was recorded on
Absolutely sat there.
Geoff (09:43):
I've touched the desk that I'm Not In Love was
recorded on, absolutelyfantastic.
Derek (09:45):
Amazing, so I used to love all of those, and probably
the pop band I saw more thananything else was 10cc Wow.
Geoff (09:58):
So, have you thought about a standard you might want
to play today?
Derek (10:01):
I had a quick look through the list.
Boy is it comprehensive.
It's fantastic.
Geoff (10:04):
It looks like you've got your baritone out there.
So are we thinking about GerryMulligan a bit here.
Derek (10:08):
Which Mulligans have you got?
Geoff (10:09):
Let's have a look here.
Derek (10:10):
I know Bernie's Tune's in there, I've seen that.
Geoff (10:12):
So I'm just typing in Gerry Mulligan and anything
that's associated with GerryMulligan, I'm Getting
Sentimental Over You, Line forLyons.
Oh yeah, that's specific of him, isn't it?
Let me go down the list here.
Walking Shoes, oh yeah.
Yeah, that's a nice one, isn'tit?
Yeah, okay, do you want to playthat one?
Derek (10:33):
Yeah, why not?
Geoff (10:34):
We're going to play two choruses of Walking Shoes by
Gerry Mulligan.
Did he write this?
Yes, Derek's going to behinting at the tune.
He won't be playing the tune.
He's going to hint at the tuneand we'll talk about it
afterwards.
So here we go.
All right, recognise that drum.
(10:55):
Thank you.
Thank you, that was reallygreat.
I love the way you hinted atthe tune there, but you kind of
(13:02):
played it round the other way.
Derek (13:04):
Yeah, so, just talking as a jazzer, a melody is just a
bucket full of ideas.
Yeah, so each single fragmentof the melody, be it two notes,
three notes, four notes, eightnotes, can all be used as your
bucket of ideas.
So you play with the rhythm,you play with the pitch, you
play with the volume of it, youplay with the contour of it.
Contour is something peopledon't think about, so for a
(13:25):
phrase goes but, but, but, dothat, but, but, but, but.
So you just think I can imaginethe contour, the shape of those
three notes, and then you headup like that.
Yeah, so if you just keepexpanding the contour or take it
lower or do exactly the samething, the opposite direction,
yeah, playing around with thecontour of a phrase, for me is
is great fun and it's alwaysworth exploring and trying to do
(13:46):
something yeah, great.
Geoff (13:49):
So what were you thinking about in mid-flow then?
Was anything particular goingthrough your mind?
Derek (13:54):
It is funny because I do treat jazz these days as almost
like you're driving a car.
You don't think about the nutsand bolts, you just look at the
road ahead and you do what'srequired to safely negotiate
that road.
Geoff (14:08):
So does that analogy like sometimes I don't remember
driving home, you don't rememberthe solo?
Derek (14:14):
No, you don't remember, I don't know what I played.
I know I took the melody and Isort of turned it upside down.
So rather than going so, I tookthe rhythm and turned it upside
down and then I kind of listento what I've played and then
start, because I'm very much atheme and variations guy.
So I'll listen to what I playedand use that.
(14:35):
And then I've also got thisidea of the shape of the tune
and what chords are coming upand as we're approaching the
bridge, my brain has alreadydecided a nice little phrase to
start the first chord of thebridge.
I'm actually thinking in thenew key.
So my finger muscle memory hasthought about what I'm going to
(14:57):
play and then?
Geoff (14:58):
well, that will.
That will give you an idea forwhat to play next.
Derek (15:01):
Yes, yeah, usually.
And then, uh, because this appuses human beings and he not
some of those I won't usedisparaging words, but less
spiritually satisfying apps thatplay backings.
I'm getting ideas because it'sGraham Harvey on piano.
It is yeah, and it's wonderful.
So if you leave a tiny bit ofspace in your solo with this app
(15:24):
, I heard something to bounceback off, and I did.
I heard Graham just do a littlefill or something.
He just suddenly wentdiddle-a-dum and I heard this
lovely four-note thing and it'sjust like having a real band
behind you.
And in which case I can do that,and it moves up to the ride
cymbal for the second chorus.
Geoff (15:40):
No, it doesn't.
That was me miming it, but itwent into four.
So traditionally what happens inthese tunes, most of the tunes
will be two choruses.
The first chorus will be thebass playing in two, the second
will be in four.
So it just gives it that kindof moving into the next gear
kind of vibe.
Derek (15:55):
Well, that's so much better than any other app that
I've ever worked with.
Just that alone gives you achance, and then your solo will
be different because you've gota different bass part going
underneath it.
Yeah, this is true.
Geoff (16:07):
And of course you can loop it as many times, but the
loop will go from the foursections, so from the swingy bit
.
It will loop as many times asyou want.
And you can also see I forgotto mention you can see the
chords display in real time inB-flat or E-flat.
Derek (16:29):
Oh, now you tell me the chords are available to look at.
Oh, it's just so long becausewe got this quartet, we have
this Gerry Mulligan pianolessquartet album to still come out.
That's going to come out thisyear, isn't?
It is going to come out thisyear, and it's one of those
things.
We recorded it pre-lockdown, ohmy god, and I mixed it during
lockdown, and then I gotinvolved with other things and
other things happened in in mylife and and it just sat on the
back burner and actually I wasinspired by some incredible
artwork by Alban Low and Isuddenly thought I have to put
(16:51):
this album out.
So it's going to come out, andthat's one of the tunes on the
album, or certainly one of thetunes that we used to do with
that quartet.
Yeah, so let's get back todoing some of those.
It's such a great idea.
When's that going to come outthen?
Um, I would say September,October, and then we'll probably
tour it early next year January, February, 26.
Fantastic, we'll try and getfive or six gigs together with
(17:12):
it that'll be really good funamazing.
Now on this appif I wanted to emulate that, can
I turn the piano player off andjust have bass and drums?
Of course you can Derek ofcourse you can.
Okay, so I can actually emulate.
Yeah, even with another hornplayer we could do the Gerry
Mulligan, Chet Baker pianolessversions of these.
We could yeah.
Sadly sorry, Mr Graham Harvey,because you are so talented,
turning you off.
Geoff (17:32):
Great, OK, there's another one on here.
Actually, I want to show youJust bear with a second.
I remember playing a bassintroduction and I think it
might be Line for Lyons.
Let me just try this.
Oh yeah, that's the one youthought we were playing first.
Derek (18:01):
That's the one I thought we were playing first Because
you'd mentioned it.
So obviously I'm subconscious,and they're both in G as well,
aren't they?
Geoff (18:07):
They're both in G, so you'll probably find fragments
of both as you speak.
I just turned off the piano soyou can have this.
So it'll sound like thisInstantly, you've got instant
Gerry Mulligan, instant GerryMulligan.
That's fantastic.
And then I'm going to put thepiano back in.
Hold on.
There's the piano.
(18:28):
Yeah, we can also have asoloist in here.
I forget who's soloing on thisone, but I need to be on the
internet.
I'm not the internet, so Ican't do that.
Okay, anyway, so but thatfacility is available.
Derek (18:44):
Oh, stop, stop, stop, sorry, that facility is
available to actually have asoloist.
Geoff (18:47):
Yes, so you have a soloist on there.
Derek (18:50):
So if you're a piano player and you want to comp
along with a soloist, you can dothat with a decent bass,
drummer, so it's just as equallyvalid.
Geoff (18:56):
You can do that, or even be a bass player.
That's true, yeah.
Derek (18:59):
Okay.
Geoff (19:01):
I was thinking about doing a couple of quickfire
questions to end it.
Your favourite sandwich?
Derek (19:09):
Usually some sort of cheese and pickle.
I'll always go for that,although saying that anything,
Coronation Chicken.
Geoff (19:13):
Oh, okay.
Your favourite venue to play.
Derek (19:17):
There's something amazing about doing the Albert Hall
Now.
I know that sounds a bit crass,but yeah, no, that's true.
Geoff (19:24):
Favourite country or city ?
Derek (19:27):
Rome or Seville.
Okay.
Geoff (19:31):
This is one that my daughter suggested.
Favourite chord.
Derek (19:34):
Favourite chord.
I love flat nines because youcan then use diminished and rip
around all over the place.
Yep, that's a good answer, andthey're just sexy enough, but
you can still play all the rootsand get away with over the
place.
Yep, that's a good answer, andthey're just sexy enough, but
you can still play all the rootsand get away with it as well.
Geoff (19:47):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
When was the last time?
Derek (19:51):
Yes, but very rarely.
I do remember being on the mainstage at Glastonbury with Jools
, which was pretty amazing.
Geoff (20:00):
Yeah.
Derek (20:01):
And we were only doing an hour set and we normally do a
two hour set.
Yeah, started playing the intro.
Oh gosh, that was butterflies.
(20:23):
I suddenly realized, a mainstage at Glastonbury.
I was going to have to do thisand it was being televised live
as well yeah so I think that wasthe last time I got nervous.
And sometimes actually the tinylittle venues if I've got new
music, yeah, I actually getquite nervous because you've got
real jack.
You see, you might Joolsplaying to thousands of people,
(20:43):
but no, they've paid a lot ofmoney to see Jools with their.
I know the gig's going to workand everyone's going to have a
good time.
Yeah, when it's your music thatyou really care about, yeah,
that's a bit different.
Geoff (20:52):
Yeah, yeah, um, what would you say is your musical
weakness?
Derek (20:57):
Oh, sight reading, sight reading I'm not a great sight
reader.
Um, I never did it very often.
So you know me, Geoff, if I doany gig, I will always ask for
the charts in advance.
I don't mind doing my homework.
I'll do my stuff, but don'tjust throw stuff in front of me
and expect it to happen.
Geoff (21:13):
Okay, okay, excellent.
What was the last concert youattended?
Derek (21:18):
I've been out a couple of times recently, but it's both
comedians.
I went to see Jimmy Carr andJack Dee over the last month,
but I haven't seen any bands.
Isn't that terrible?
I was at a festival not so longback and I saw Beth Hart and I
just thought she was amazing.
Geoff (21:32):
That's a good one.
Yeah, excellent.
Any advice for young musiciansstarting out?
Derek (21:37):
Play any kind of music anywhere.
Grab any musical opportunity,even if you think it's a genre
that you would not normally playor not even enjoy.
One of two things will happen.
You'll actually either discoverit's not the genre for you, but
you've got to try it, and thesecond thing that's going to
happen is you're going to meetall sorts of like-minded musical
(21:59):
people that are perfectly happyto try out any musical, and the
networking that you do by justtaking any gig anywhere and
trying stuff out will be amazing.
Geoff (22:08):
Excellent.
Who or what was your biggestinfluence?
Derek (22:13):
Well, my biggest influence is the love child that
doesn't exist, but if DavidSanborn and Cannonball Adderly
had one, that would be it,
Don't you think the altosaxophone is amazing.
It's the one instrument that youknow.
You compare Paul Desmond toDavid Sanborn, and and how it's
like a completely differentinstrument, isn't?
It it's completely amazing itis completely different.
(22:33):
Wow, uh, and I actually, I find pawns.
.
find In Jools hardest.
Even though I started first, 12years old, started on alto,
yeah, I still find it the mostchallenging.
It's it's it's the mistressthat gives you most grief, wow,
um, but I love it But you playalto in Jools band, don't you
exclusively?
Geoff (22:50):
yeah, do you wish you played the other pawns um,
because J J because
Derek (22:55):
Uh, in a weird way, I'd quite enjoy playing baritone
with Jools because it's kind ofrhythm and blues bass, so
there's lots of fantastic.
You really feel you're holdingthe whole section.
Yeah, then again I'd love totake all the big roaring tenor
solos, and when I go out withpeople like Ben Waters I just
play tenor all night and groundaway and jump around the stage
and have a good time.
Geoff (23:14):
So, okay, fantastic.
And one last one your favouritealbum.
I think I know what you'regoing to say, but I think I know
what you're going to say.
Derek (23:22):
It could be Soul Station, Soul Station or something else,
yeah.
Geoff (23:27):
Excellent.
Thank you so much for comingtoday.
Absolute pleasure and it's beenreally, really good fun.
I'll see you soon, Great Thanks.
Announcement (23:33):
Geoff Bye.
Thank you for making it to theend of another podcast.
Please subscribe if you want tohear more of them as they land.
The Quartet Jazz StandardsPodcast is a UK Music Apps
production.
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Search for Quartet on the AppStore or find out more at
(23:53):
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