Episode 20. Stan Sulzmann (Saxophone) - 'Gentle Piece'

Geoff is in Box Hill, Surrey to meet with the legendary jazz saxophonist, composer and educator Stan Sulzmann.

Stan takes us on a captivating journey through his remarkable career as one of Britain's most respected jazz saxophonists. From his unexpected start with a secondhand Selmer tenor saxophone to playing alongside jazz royalty, the interview reveals both musical insights and deeply personal reflections.

The conversation opens windows into jazz history as Stan recounts his transformative experiences at age 17, traveling on the Queen Mary to New York City in 1967. With wide-eyed wonder, he describes sitting literally at the feet of Miles Davis's legendary quintet featuring Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Ron Carter, and Wayne Shorter. These formative experiences watching jazz giants at venues like the Village Vanguard and Blue Note shaped his musical consciousness, though he admits with characteristic humility that he "had no idea what they were doing" at the time.

Particularly fascinating are Stan's stories about his long association with the brilliant composer Kenny Wheeler. Their musical partnership produced landmark recordings like ‘Flutter By, Butterfly’ (1988) and the classic ‘Music for Large and Small Ensembles’ (1990). Stan provides insight into Wheeler's compositional approach, describing how Kenny deliberately simplified his harmonic palette over time to make his music more accessible while retaining its emotional depth. The interview includes a beautiful performance of Wheeler's jazz standard ‘Gentle Piece’ – accompanied by the steadfast Quartet app –  demonstrating Stan's sensitive interpretation despite recent health challenges.

Beyond his jazz credentials, Stan reveals his life as a session musician during London's recording heyday, playing on tracks for Elton John and Paul McCartney, and even recording the soundtrack to McCartney's 1980s film ‘Give My Regards to Broad Street’. With refreshing candour, he discusses his struggles with performance anxiety throughout his career, shedding light on the psychological challenges many musicians face behind their accomplished exteriors.

This conversation offers a masterclass in musical development, the importance of finding one's authentic voice, and adapting to life's challenges. Whether you're a jazz aficionado or simply appreciate stories of artistic perseverance, Stan Sulzmann’s warmth, wisdom and musical journey will resonate deeply. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with jazz's most fascinating personalities.

Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.

Episode Transcript

Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in Box Hill and it'ssouth of London.
I'm going to speak to a legend,a legend of the British jazz
scene.
His name is Stan Sulzmann.
He is a tenor player and aflute player and he's got some
great stories to tell.

(00:21):
He's done it all.
He's going to chat to me aboutKenny Wheeler, about touring,
about studio stuff.
So I'm really looking forwardto speaking to him.

(00:46):
Here we go.

Announcement (00:47):
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.

Stan (01:04):
Three pints please. Stan.
How great to see you, lovely tosee you.
You found it, then, obviouslyGood.
You have a set that's prettygood here, isn't it?
As you can see what happens,that's beautiful.

Geoff (01:20):
Stan, there you are.
How lovely to see you.
Thanks for inviting me.
Thank you for inviting me.
Can we talk about how you gotstarted in jazz and your
background of it?

Stan (01:31):
I got a saxophone when I was about 13 because I lived in
Essex, Harold Hill, a bigcouncil house estate.
I was born in the age ofIslington actually, we were
rehoused after the Second WorldWar, like a lot of people were
from London and my dad was asemi-pro musician, right, he
played a bit of piano andaccordion.
He couldn't read music oranything, but he had a busking

(01:53):
book with all the tunes, all thestandards you know, but it was
just written out in notes like A, c, d, e, just in notes like
that.
Yeah, yeah, anyway.
And he played accordion.
Accordion was a big instrumentin those days.
And then we moved to Essex.
Eventually we went to HaroldHill Grammar School and of
course that was still the days.
Instrument lessons and stuffwere free in the schools and the

(02:14):
instruments were free.
You could go in and they'd giveyou something you know Amazing
now when you think about it Outof what was available,
available, I sort of asked for aflute or a French horn, I don't
know why, French horn anyway,but they'd all gone, so they'd
all been taken.
So, oh, and I wasn't reallydoing me, I didn't.
I never did do music at school,ever.
Anyway, I was never allowed totake music I mean, it's nuts,

(02:35):
this anyway but my.
So I was about 13 and my dadwasn't playing any longer.
We were in now in Essex, a longstory short, we he decided to
sell it.
We went to Charing Cross Roadand then which used to have a
Selmer shop so anybody knowsabout saxophones called Selmer's
, one of the big makes.
There was actually a Selmershop in Charing Cross Road, so
in we trooped, you know, and ofcourse I'm completely boggled

(02:58):
with all these nice shinyinstruments everywhere and he
bought me a secondhand SelmerSuper Action.
I think it was lovely, oldtenor, beautiful and part
exchanges his accordion becausehe wasn't playing.
And so back I went home toEssex and there were no teachers
anywhere or anything and lookedin a paper in the local paper
and we found the saxophonelessons from this guy, Terry

(03:20):
Porter, who lived in Becontreenear Dagenham, and of course it
was a very unpopular instrumentat the time.
All my friends and the kidsused to laugh at you.
What's that?
It's a saxophone.
It was the age of three guitarsand drums, as you know.
But he was a great teacher,very good musician, but he had
no formal training about jazz.
He used to loan me his records,don't scratch it.

(03:43):
Yeah, exactly yeah, because, um, oh, he's a lovely man.
So we stayed in touch right upto till he passed a few years
ago, taught you to play theinstrument really well.
It was a bit old school, youknow.
There was things like, well, no, you put it in, you have to do
this with your lip and youmustn't know.
That's right, you know.
It's like there was a way to doit, but it didn't work for me.
You know I was having troublewith lips and teeth and stuff.
But these guys played in dancebands and stuff.

(04:04):
I mean they made fantasticsounds.
They projected sound.
Funny enough, a little bitlater on I was still very young
because of Andy McIntosh.
I knew Andy when he came in theNational Youth Jazz Orchestra
and through all that and I gotto him and we did a few gigs
with his dad's big band becausehe didn't have a saxophone
section.
Ken, his dad would walk aroundthe front of the stage playing
the alto.

(04:24):
It's a huge sound.
Now they don't mean huge, thin,raspy, it was just like an
incredible.
They do have to fill a roomwith sound.
I was taught to play like that,you know.

Geoff (04:35):
Did you transcribe?
No, nobody ever talks aboutthat?

Stan (04:39):
No, nobody told me about that.
All I did was sit at homebecause nobody else I didn't
know anybody that liked jazz.
Nobody at all.
Nobody, except at school.
My French teacher turned outplayed a bit of piano, but he
didn't say much because he was abit frowned upon in the school.
You see, jazz was his schooland the art teacher.
I took my tenor in to show himand he was thrilled.

(04:59):
He said it's all a bit in thecorner, don't?
And he was tall and thin, witha big beard.
And what did he play?
Baritone.
And he looked like GerryMulligan.
That's why he loved it.
You know he wa a piece of abaritone player.
But I didn't know anybody on theestate and I used to just play
in my bedroom with a littleDansette record player a
horrible thing on four legs, youknow.

(05:21):
Legs, you know.
And it was the old black legwith the gold feet on the stuff.
Mono, of course, you know.
Wonder of mono, yeah, and thenyou play your LPs.
Let's just sit and play alongwith them.
So I had records.

Geoff (05:30):
There's ones that were nice to play along with okay, so
you've got your vocabulary fromjust from imitating stuff.

Stan (05:37):
Well, just listening to those records, and playing along
, but I don't think I really hadany vocabulary.
Nobody ever talked about theidea, so nobody ever said
anything about any of that.
I just played along and mightpicked up the odd phrase yeah,
and I mean, I really didn't knowhow they did it.
You know what I mean.
So and then.
But then we moved back toLondon.
I was playing in a few popgroups type things at school and

(05:59):
then I took a job at WimbledonPalais, which was great, three
nights a week in the house bandplaying top ten hits.
It was a nice little band butwe just played pop tunes.
I had a red mohair suit andBeatle boots and I loved it.
I was only 15, 16.
Imagine being in this massiveballroom.

Geoff (06:16):
That's young, that's amazing.

Stan (06:18):
I was on the side of the stage so all the bands used to
come, all the big rock.
.
Even the Beatles played therewhen they first started On
Friday nights was the guest andJerry Lee Lewis guy holding the
piano legs up with Jerry LeeLewis jumping about on top of
his old white piano.
You know, yeah, it was mad,yeah, but Fame Fames used to
come through there.
Yeah, and I loved Georgie'sband.
And then I was working there andthen, somehow or other, we got

(06:40):
involved with a band, the guyswho got a few gigs at the
Flamingo in Wardour Street,which was the R&B club you know
Well.

Geoff (06:45):
Georgie Fane talked about that all the time.
Yeah, when on gigs.
Well, that's the time.

Stan (06:49):
I used to go there when he was there because I was
thrilled because he'd be playingthere and we'd do these
ridiculous things You'd do theall-nighter the all could do a
gig in Nottingham and get backin time to do the all nighter.
I was still at school.
I should never have done itreally, but I loved it and I was
still playing at the WimbledonPalais.

(07:11):
My dad saw an advert in thepaper .
.
He was forming a jazz orchestra, the London Youth Jazz
Orchestra, which became theNational Youth Jazz Orchestra.
Bill Ashton's forming this band, looking for people interested
to come along.
So my dad called it up becauseyou know, so this is the day you
or you just had a phone if youwere lucky, yeah or you had to
go out and use a pay phone.

(07:31):
And that's how I got involvedin jazz really any proper,
because that's the first time Imet other people that, like jazz
, left school at 15, got a jobin an insurance company because
I was told that was a safe job.

Geoff (07:42):
You know something to fall back on?

Stan (07:43):
yes, yeah, this is your job, and then you play a bit in
the evenings, which is why mydad bought me a saxophone to do
what he did yeah, more playingthose pub gigs and stuff than he
did working, you know, as aclerk.
But anyway I was still going toNYGO at that time, you know, I
was still young, only 16, 17.
Somebody got in touch with Bill.
They were short of a saxophoneplayer to go on the Queen Mary,

(08:04):
so that's how I went on there in67 and I did a year on there,
so 17 or 18.
I went to New York, you know,in and out every three weeks on
the Mary, which was me like Ican't even begin to tell you.

Geoff (08:17):
I've been everywhere for a jazz musician to go to New
York in the 60s Talk us throughwhat you saw, I mean what you
must have seen.

Stan (08:23):
Well, you, can't, because you couldn't get there any other
way.
As you know, the famous one youknow, Dankworth used to do it,
Ronnie Scott did it.
Everybody took jobs on the Maryand t t because because of no
cheap flights and it cost you afortune.
So you get to New York andyou're docked on 52nd Street.
So there you are and the firstthing I a 24-hour restaurant
which you've never seen, neverheard of, you know.
So we're off, we trooped inthere trying to get served, and

(08:48):
then you carry on walking up52nd Street and the first place
you came to was the HickoryHouse, which was like a Berni
Inn, like a steakhouse, big one.
It had an oval-shaped stage inthe middle of the room and the
trio was Billy Taylor Trio withGrady Tate and Bob Crenshaw, you
know.
God God, and a trio with GradyTate and Bob Cranshaw, you know.
And they used to sit in thebath, sit around the bath, and
it was not really an entrancefee, just bought a drink, you

(09:10):
know, which was reasonablyexpensive, but you could just go
in and have a drink and hearthe trio.
And then we used to buy a papercalled the Village Voice.
Village Voice, I remember itwell maybe look at it.
Or there was a phone numbercalled the Jazz Line.
They used to find a phone boothor a phone, yeah, somewhere,
call the jazz line.
And it went.
Good evening jazz lovers.
You know, in town tonight atthe Blue Note we have blah, blah

(09:31):
, blah.
Yeah, cover charge so and sotwo dollars or something.
You know Village Vanguard, andyou have a bit of paper and a
pencil and you sit there writingit all down.
So we'd all be sat in theHickory House, you know we'd
listen to what we're going tosee tonight where are you going?
well, I'm going there, I want togo in here, so and so, so
enough.
We'd all go different places,but of course they all played to
, like Ronnie's.

(09:51):
They all worked till three inthe morning, so you could make
two or three places, you didn'thave to go to one.
So I mean I went to all sortssorts of things.
I went loads to the VillageVanguard, Mel and Thad's band.
You know the original band yeahthe very original band, um six
or seven times at least.
Yeah, and saw Herbie Hancockdepping with the band, you know,

(10:11):
with his head, with his glasseson, looking at the pile of
paper, you know.
And in the Vanguard I saw, uh,Bill Evans Trio with Philly Joe
um, did you?

Geoff (10:20):
remember Les McCann.
Yeah, yeah, it's great to watch.

Stan (10:23):
Yeah, but at that time you know he's got a thing.
But with Leroy Vinnegar, yeah,and I've never forgotten Leroy
Vinnegar, isn't it funny?
I talked to Dave Holland aboutthat.
I think he's got Leroy's oldbass.
Really, he's really had a thingabout Leroy.

(10:50):
I remember sitting in frontblack guy with the biggest smile
I've ever seen playing the bass.
You know that walking thing witha big smile like, yeah, I've
got an album of his Leroy Walks!, yeah, Walks Again.
And he's just on the front ofthe cover with his bass and he's
walking with a big smile.
Oh, he's fabulous, wow.
But he's on some of those SonnyRollins records as well, isn't
he?
Yeah, I went to the Blue Note.
I saw.
I saw Elvin with the band,because that's the year Coltrane
died.
He, he didn't play anymore andhe was a bit worse for wear.
Let's put it that way, Elvin.
But I didn't really understandall this.
And there was nobody in there.
I mean, a lot of these clubswere empty.

(11:10):
You know, jazz was dying atthat time.
But I saw incredible things,like Lionel Hampton's big band,
the Metropole Bar, you know thelegendary bar, all all in a
straight line down the bar,because that's all the depth
there was.
It was a one straight long bar,that's all there was, and
behind it was a raised bit whichis, say, from that wall to here
.
So there's only room to likeone person or the drum kit or

(11:32):
that.
So, depending on what you wantto listen to, you could move to
the section you're interested in.
You move down the bar one end tothe other.
Memorable, the two reallymemorable gigs.
One was Joe Henderson withKenny Barron, Louis Hayes, and
so I saw that and then the othermajor gig, which was fabulous.
That was fantastic.
You know, Joe Henderson, what amaster.
Oh, we went to the Village Gate.

(11:53):
We went in that classic doublebill, Miles Davis Quintet and
Dizzy Gillespie Quintet and theygot to the door and the guy
said where do you want to sit?
It was only like $2 to get inor something.
It was so cheap.
I said, well, I don't know, thestage was built out and it had
a couple of rows of just tables,yeah, and I could see it was
sort of fairly empty.

(12:14):
I said, can we go?
He said yeah, so we sat on thestage in front of the bands.
Oh my.
God, so you know Dizzy's bandwas great James Moody.
But the Miles band that wouldhave been Herbie, Tony and Ron
and Wayne, yeah, that's the band, and I mean I'd never heard any
music like that ever.

Geoff (12:31):
I mean I'd never heard any records or anything like
that, so by 67, it would havebeen fairly out right, it's a
bit like Plugged Nickel, isn'tit?

Stan (12:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know .
And I sat on the stage and wejust sat there with our mouths
open.
I couldn't imagine what that'slike.
You know what I mean.
So it's not like oh yeah,fantastic, you just, I had no
idea, completely puzzled by it.

Geoff (12:53):
you know Right.
Did you understand what theywere doing at this stage?

Stan (12:56):
No, of course not, I had no idea at all.
You just go away with thisthing that you've heard.
Wow, incredible.

Geoff (13:02):
So how was Miles in that gig.
What was he like to watch?
I found it.

Stan (13:07):
It's all a bit I can't think of the right word.
I was going to say frightening,scary, but a bit dark.
I suppose they're all kind ofserious.
And they all walked on.
Miles didn't say anything, gothis back to the man and just a
few taps of his foot.
I don't know if it went andit's off.
And that's it.
And I was just sort of lookingat these, as opposed to say like

(13:28):
Dizzy who's telling funnystories.

Geoff (13:30):
Yeah, completely opposite , isn't it?

Stan (13:31):
Complete opposite, there's a show, you know, but Miles was
just the music.

Geoff (13:35):
you know Dave Holland talks about that, doesn't he?
He talks about his firstexperience with Miles just
walking onto the stage with JackDeJohnette, and he says that
Miles didn't speak, he juststarted and it was da da, da, da
, da da.
And Dave, he described it asjust being pulled along in a
force field by the band, justbeing swept up into it.
That's right, he knew JackDeJohnette.

(13:56):
He knew Jack in London.

Stan (13:58):
Yeah, I was at that gig.
I went to those gigs.
He was was playing with BillEvans at Ronnie's yeah is what
was going on.
Yeah, and the first sets DaveHolland was playing with Ronnie
Scott's quartet yeah and Ronnienever used to play the first
sets because there's nobody inyou know?
yeah, that's when Miles saw Dave, yeah and he got and so the
story you know called out.
Yeah, you know, white Englishbass player turned up.

(14:23):
It was not what he wanted.
He said Herbie was fantastic,he's called to come around in
the afternoon.
And yeah, he said, look, wemight do this.
Show him a few things.
He said don't, you can't haveany music on the stage.
He was just unheard of.
Yeah, he said, but look, heshould write a few things just
on a piece of paper.
Put me in the well, the piano,look over.
So that's what he did, you knowhe said Herbie
He was really nice to him, andso was Tony.

(14:43):
Later on it all kind of settledand I think he maybe sort of
apologised to him for being sohard on him.
And Wayne is Wayne, isn't he?
I presume he's sort of out tolunch somewhere.
Well, he was, wasn't he?
In a nice way he's on anotherplanet.
Yeah, he's sort of walkingaround, Talk about baptism of

(15:04):
fire, you know.
Yeah, so I mean I did thatwhole year hearing all this
music and of course I was veryyoung, very naive.
Nobody taught me anything.
I had a great schooling andeverything.
I had a great life, but nobodytaught me very much about making
a life or something.
You know, it was just this.
I'll get a decent job, you know, you'll be right Something safe
.

Geoff (15:23):
How old were you when you quit the day job then?

Stan (15:26):
Well, I came off the boat, so I would have been 18.
Then I went to the BBC andworked in the record library for
a short period because Ithought it was something
connected with music.
I was basically a librarianthere, Eg in the house, you know
, just up from there, and thenthis job came on the Mary, 67,

(15:47):
so I was born in 48, working out.
When I came off I tried for theGuildhall and I didn't get in
because I was trying to do firststudy flute and obviously it
wasn't good enough.
I wanted flute lessons and thenI went to the academy and did
saxophone and I got in.
And, of course, John Dankworthwas the first guy that came in
teaching saxophone at theAcademy and they put me with him
.
But, funny enough, by that timeI just started doing gigs with
his band and so I spent threeyears at the Academy, but I was

(16:09):
what you, what you, would call amature student.
You know, yeah, um, I was alsomarried incredibly young and um,
and I was gigging a lot andworking with these bands.
I had a great time at theAcademy.
I wasted a lot of it.
I think in hindsight, thingsthat I could have done and
learned about, but I didn't havethe mental mechanisms, I didn't
understand how.
So I entered in the businessthinking it was just about being

(16:30):
a musician not invertedcommas, a jazz musician.
I mean, I actually played atthe Bag O'Nails Jimi Hendrix and
he just kind of played the bass.
Can I sit in on bass guitar?
Yeah, sure, you know, we werelike just kids, you know, with
an amateur rock and roll bluesband, R and B band, you know.
So I was married and I got aphone call in the middle of the
night and I mean, you know, likethree or four, when we were

(16:52):
asleep, I mean I don't know, isit?
Oh, it's Pete King here youknow, Ronnie's Pete Yeah, he
said you, you working on FridayYou know, I went, Pete it's
three o'clock.
Yeah, we said well, said well,got a gig for you.
It's in Germany.
It's Kenny Clarke Francy BolandBig Band.
Do you want to do it?
You know I go what?
It was a record with Stan Getz.
So you've got to remember I'monly like 20, 21 or something.

(17:15):
I mean only for three yearsbefore I had a collection of 78
Stan Getz records I thought I'dbought in Dobell's with my dad.
I went, oh, yeah, yeah, becausethey knew I could read, because
I'd been in Dankworth's band.
So the next minute.
I went with Tony Coe becauseTony wouldn't fly anywhere,
terrified of flying.
So I went on the ferry and thetrain to Cologne.

(17:36):
So I turned up there to do thisgig, you know, and of course I
was thrilled is one thing, but Iwas terrified, absolutely
petrified you know?

Geoff (17:48):
I don't know any of these people.
You're mixing with the big boyshere, aren't you?

Stan (17:50):
this is serious and of course everybody knew everybody.
So you know that kind ofeverybody's back slapping and
cuddling and hey man, how youdoing it's all firing on because
I don't know anybody, you knowjust Derek and Derek Watkins and
stuff.
So I sat there and I do the gigand it all went fine.
I remember when Stan Getzappeared in the room because I'd

(18:11):
had all these records and thensome of the English guys of
probably best to say theyweren't named names, but some of
the guys that were well knownat the time, and through that
you know, when the music hadgone very kind of um, everybody
was Coltrane mad.
You know modal kind of musicman thought it was, everything
had to be full on.
You know, like energy, stayguess.

(18:31):
You know it's terrible, wasn'ta sound, you know that whispery
thing sound anyway in walks Getzand I'm sort of I couldn't
believe it.
you know, stands right in frontof me because in front of the
sax is and turn around, startsplaying and the whole room is
filled with this sound.
It's the same thing aboutprojection making a sound.
It isn't volume, that's notwhat it is.

(18:52):
That's the first time I learnedabout what that is.
It's something different.
It's something about beingcentred and about making things
go that way.
Getz was nice.
I met him again in London atRonnie's after that.
He's very nice.
People have always put, as havehired, you know, put big bands
together because we like for fun.
But I mean Francy's, that band,Kenny Clarke Francy Boland
Boland.
It's because of the people init.

(19:13):
It got good gigs and could do atour or something.
You know Chris Pine Ken,Wheeler did.
You know he was doing loads ofstudio TV shows yeah a lot of
sessions around in those days.

Geoff (19:31):
Well, there was a load of work.

Stan (19:32):
yeah, there was a ton of work because we are completely
pre-synthesizers and computersand everything.
So rock and roll bands don'thire horns to come in and play
stuff.
But there was TV shows if youwere a good doubler, films and
this and so all of a suddensomebody called me out the blue,
you know to work for one of thefixers they because they were
always looking for who's comingup and that what you work for

(19:54):
suddenly, for David Katz andthen one of the other ones that
hear about you, then your namewould be passed and the other
someone else would ring you upnext minute.
You'd be getting to do work,because it's all freelance,
obviously, as you know, and youworked for these people who?
They were very dubiouscharacters, you know.
There was so much work.
You could walk out of things ifyou didn't like it and still
had plenty of work, because didyou find yourself on big pop

(20:14):
sessions and things like this?

Geoff (20:15):
yeah, you did loads of stuff.
What sort of things did you do?

Stan (20:17):
Things for Elton John, but of course on your titles it
would just be a working title,but working.
So you didn't know what churchand we never wrote any of them
down because it was just whatyou're doing.
I don't know something.
down at Henley he turned up toanyone what we're doing.
Oh, it's Elton John tracks.
You know, you wouldn't evenknow before you got there and by
the time we left you'd be intoo hurry to get to the pub and
you weren't really bothered,just to go no, yeah, you don't

(20:39):
write any of it down or anything, because obviously it became
later on, when PPL opened up,everybody was trying to scramble
up tofind what they played on.
I've got a few McCartney things.
I did, you know, Broad Streetand then some other.
Then there was a Christmassingle I played on.
At that time my marriage hadfallen apart, I was getting
divorced, I was on my own and Igot this call oh, we're doing a
promo video of that record withMcCartney.

(21:01):
So would you like to do it?
Well, I needed the moneybecause things had gone a bit
wrong.
So off I went, we made thislittle video and then we got the
promo gigs about six or sevenof those running around Europe
in his plane, his little privateplane, doing these things.
And at the end of it I think itwas very nice, he treated us
all very well.
At the end of it he said wouldyou be interested in blah, blah,

(21:22):
blah if Paul's going to do abig tour next time?
I said no, I've got a son athome, which is true.
My son was living with me, myeldest son, and the truth is we
probably wouldn't get on becauseI'm a jazz fan.
You know I don't really likethis music much.
I did do another record for himlater on.
He never came out.
He got very interested in songsand Nat King Cole.

(21:43):
So he wrote these couple ofsongs and he asked me would you
play a solo?
So I thought he's not going tolike this.
Paul, I knew what he was like,you know, because I'd already
done this Christmas single.
What he wants is someone tojust play the tune, you know.
So I do what I'm told in thesessions.
You do what you're told.
Paul kept saying yeah, soundsgreat, but can you come up, you
know, and have a listen?

(22:03):
Yeah, try another one, you know, like you know take 10 or
something you know take 12.
He says, yeah, it's reallylittle.
I said, Paul, shall I just playthe tune?
He went, yeah, so I played it.
He went fantastic.

Geoff (22:16):
Thanks, Sam.

Stan (22:16):
Great, you know, to me doing sessions was going to work
it.

Geoff (22:31):
Can we talk about your partnership association with
Kenny Wheeler?

Stan (22:35):
Yeah, so I first met Kenny when funnily enough, when I was
still working at WimbledonPalais Kenny's, right back to
then, right?
Or you heard of Tin Pan Alley,which is off Charing Cross Road,
yeah, which is where all thepop records were made which you
were talking about.
I had's go along do thissession.
You know I can't remember whatwe got paid and the trumpet
player walked in, which was Ken,but he's so quiet, you know,

(22:56):
he's legendary.
At that time he was reallyquiet and so was I.
I was like him.
I never used to say a word toanybody.
I was so shy and insecure as aperson.
You know, I wasn't very grownup in a way.
We sat together and sort ofsaid hello, said something about
jazz, you know, I said I'll doNational Youth Jazz.
I love it, you know.
Oh, that's great.
You know his old quiet voiceand we played this thing and he

(23:17):
sort of got through it all andthen off he went because he
wasn't enjoying being there.
You know, Ken really didn'tlike this sort.
Yeah, and that was my firstmeeting with Ken.
But then, um, the first time Iheard his music, he got a gig at
one of the summer schools,Barry Summer School.
So there was this 12 piece bandwhich I was playing in and we
turned up and some of the musicwas a Ken Wheeler piece called
25 Blue, which is actually oneof the pieces on Windmill Tilter

(23:40):
, and it was like, oh, it's justlike the whole world opened up.
You know, when you play musicthat you identify with yeah,
it's the same with John.

Geoff (23:47):
Taylor, you know, with John's music.
So both of those guys had theirown thing quite early on.
Yeah, in terms of composing.

Stan (23:54):
Yeah, I mean John developed and changed a bit.
I mean you might say there wasquite a bit of Herbie type stuff
.
He probably would have notliked me to say that, but maybe,
but there was.
You know, I mean the early linewas a bit like it was a record
we all love, which is Herbie'srecord was Speak Like a Child.
Yeah, it was a fantastic record.
But that lovely sound, you know, with the front line.

Geoff (24:13):
Yeah, with the alto flute and the bass trombone.

Stan (24:16):
Yeah but John's writing was fabulous, it was because it
wasn't a sextet like.
It, wasn't like an Art Blakeyone, not that there's anything
wrong with that.
That's great as well.
The horns move kind of writtenvoice together.

Geoff (24:26):
It's kind of a classical thing, isn't it?
The whole approach comes morefrom classical music.
Well, it was different.

Stan (24:31):
Yeah, John was very broad, but the trombone would be
written with the bass and thepiano would be playing a line.
So piano didn't just sit andplay chords, you know, but lots
of stuff where I'd be playingone line with Kenny's trombone
would be with that John, there'dbe three or four different
things going on, lots of linearplaying, some things using odd
meters.
John used to like writingthings that threw a spanner in

(24:54):
the works, but not to be cleveror to be nasty, but I think he
quite liked being naughty.
He always had a thing about ifthere was a rotten piano, he'd
start pedaling the lad pedalsand he'd start playing.
"'if you playing, if you go downin the woods today, you're in
for it, and that's not noddinghis head like you know you're
like he's not being sort ofplayful and naughty you know,
part of his character and, um,he's throwing an odd bar

(25:15):
somewhere like trip up, you know, yeah, but the thing about it
was it made you stop doing whatall your pre-prescribed thing,
which is kind of it you're atyour comfort zone, yeah and you
suddenly find yourself doingsomething different and you
might play a note that youdidn't like or something,
because you've tripped them andyou go.
Oh, I'm sorry, John, I playedit wrong, he'd go.
No, no, you meant to play that.
He'd say no, that's great, youknow, and he loved things going

(25:36):
a little bit pear-shaped hereand there.
I don't mean he's huntingdisaster, but he liked that
thing being on the edge.
You know, very exciting.
John's sextet for me was likethe whole world changed and the
same with Ken, you know, in thedifferent same thing and those
melodies and the right, I meanthe whole thing, and because it
never leaves you ever, you justremember that forever and it's

(25:58):
where I started.
One of the interesting thingwas so I kind of missed out
playing on standards and stuff,although I've been on the boats
and playing tunes and I lovedall of them.
I've got a collection ofrecords and all that stuff.
I never got to play it and itwas very hard, a bit like Ken
used to talk about.
He never got to work with allthose people.
Why did he end up going to thefree things with John Stevens?

Geoff (26:21):
Presumably, that's a choice that Kenny would have
made and, John, they would havemade deliberately not to play
standards by composing their ownmusic Ken I'm talking about in
particular found it hard.

Stan (26:30):
He's on groupings and notes and stuff it wasn't bebop,
it didn't sit in, it wasn'tbebop.
Yeah, oh he's got terrible time,but of course he actually came
in at the most incredible time.
It was all like there's groups,god knows what, going, sevens,
and I, but I didn't understandthe mechanics of it, you know.
But moving into Ken's music andJohn's music, I understood
their music.
That's why I probably got on sowell with them.

(26:52):
I'd learnt how to play theirmusic and interpret their music,
as John would say.
John once said to me.
He said you're a really greatinterpreter.
Give me something to play andI'll interpret what you've
written on the paper, and veryquick, because in those days you
had to work fast.
There's no time to get thingsdone

Geoff (27:08):
That Flutterby.
Butterfly album is one of myfavourite albums.

Stan (27:11):
That's a lovely record.
Well it was, ke he have had atour?
So do you fancy doing a littletour in Europe for a month and
we could probably be going here.
But it wasn't that long beforethe tour should have started.
It was quite late on.
So Dave Holland was alwaysgoing to be on.
It know, Dave's very well knownanyway, you know, because of
his connections.
Jay was was making quite a name.

(27:32):
There should have been anotherhorn player and same with the
drum chair, and I know that heactually they did try.
I talked about trying to getRoy Haynes or Elvin Jones, but
it was.
It's Billy Elgar who played it.
Great, you know, because Billy,Ken had met him in Germany.
He'd just moved there from theStates and he liked him and took
a chance on him out of kindnessin a way.

(27:52):
I think Ken was like.
He asked me to play in his band, thank you, but of course,
business wise it was not a goodmove.
So a lot of the gigs went outthe window.
I mean, I didn't understandthis or know anything about this
at the time.
I wasn't involved in settingany of it up, but when we came
to do it a lot of the gigs went.
I know everybody talking.
I was just saying that one'sgone, that one's gone.
The promoters pulled outbecause they wanted whoever this

(28:14):
big name was.
That should have been whoeverit was.
Let's say Younger Breck or yeah,yeah, it wouldn't have been
Michael Brecker, but someonelike that, some big name, and
the drummer would have beenimagine if, imagine if it had
been Elvin or Roy Haynes.
The whole world changes.
It's the world of business.
Dave Holland, because of hisAmerican passport, could get
this special ticket that you canbuy in Europe.

(28:35):
You couldn't get it if you wereEnglish and it was a special
ticket, a rail ticket that wasvalid for a month and you got it
stamped on the day you startedand it was first class anywhere
in Europe for one month.
So it was like for Americantourists, really, wow.
So he bought five of thesetickets for us.
So I turned up there and a wholepile of tunes arrived and we

(28:55):
started off.
We went, did the rehearsals,went on the road and then we got
to Italy and that guy,Bonandrini, with Soul Note label
, used to make record bands thatpassed through and he just paid
you cash.
It's the old-fashioned way,like Blue Note.
They're like the original, oldrecord labels that used to just
pay you and that was it.
You never did the label, thesleeve, nothing, you just

(29:16):
goodbye and that was it, it wasours.
We all went into the studio.
It was all done in a day, Ithink I don't know if we did or
two in Milan, and it was allcrammed in tiny little place.
It was supposed to be an ECMrecord but when everything went
wrong with whoever these peopleare that should have been in the
band, he pulled out of it.
He didn't want to record it.
So I ended up playing on thisrecord.

(29:36):
It was fantastic.
You know I love playing thosetunes, fantastic tunes.
They're all great.
All the tunes on there aregreat, you know.
So lucky me, you know.
But I learned a little bit.
You start to understand how thebusiness works, that it's not
just about playing.
You know bums on seats, but inthe middle of all that, great
things do get done and made.
You know, yeah.

Geoff (30:01):
So then of course you went on to an album that's come
up a lot when I've been talkingto people is the music from
Large and Small Ensembles.

Stan (30:04):
Oh yeah, the Big Band, one band, one yeah which is a
favourite album of so manypeople.
Yeah, that's another one, isn't?

Geoff (30:10):
it.
It's a classic.
What's your memories?

Stan (30:12):
of that.
So that was the same thing.
It was part of a tour, so weplayed the music in, which was
great.
That was done at the old CTSWembley Manfred De Pied, Eric,
all in the semicircle, verylittle screening, so we could
play live.
We played the pad, basicallythe suite which had been written
for that tour, which is afabulous suite.

(30:32):
It's amazing, yeah, it's areally beautiful one.
And then the other odd piecesand then the small group pieces
were to fill up the time to makeit into an album.
I think we did.
There was one tune was itcalled Tickety Boo?
Or something Very, very fast,ridiculously fast, sort of fun
thing, that sort of thing thateverybody had a roar up on, you
know, and we did record that.
But Banfield went no, no, no,no, we don't use this, we don't

(30:53):
want.
He did it because it was toomuch jazz, it was too much roar
up.

Geoff (30:56):
And was Kenny.
Did he find it easy to lead abig band?
Because I know he was quite ashy fellow.

Stan (31:01):
Well, he always had a conductor.
He didn't.
I've never known Kelly standingin front of the band and do the
carving.
John Taylor used to leave thepiano and conduct the opening
part, that lovely chorale thing,do-da, do-da-da-da.
But everything else.
There was always a conductor.
You know different people.
He just wanted to sit in theband.
And he would say a few thingsagain now now again he game

(31:21):
and he would basically leadpeople to get on with it.
You know, sort yourselves out,but if you've got the right
players in the band and peopleto lead things, it kind of takes
care of itself.
And the writing was so strongwasn't it.

Geoff (31:33):
It was just the arranging was so strong, So I asked you
if you wanted to play somethingtoday, and you chose a tune,
didn't you?

Stan (31:44):
Yeah, well, as you've been talking about and we talked a
lot about Ken Wheeler and I'vehad a few health issues which
have made life change a bit, soI thought I'd play Gentle Piece,
which is a lovely tune of Ken's.

Geoff (31:57):
Tell us about that composition.
When did you first discoverthat tune it?

Stan (32:00):
might have been on that big band record.
I don't know if we played itbefore or not.
It's very hard to remember.
Yeah, like a lot of the musicfrom Ken and John, things would
morph into this, into that,particularly with John.
You know his music all grewfrom.
There might be a tune and thena year later you'd hear that's a
bit like it's like it had grownon the end of the other one.
Yeah, it was an extension of it.

(32:21):
And he often used to think likethat, that way of writing where
one thing leads to another,rather than here's a new tune,
here's a new tune, that onething had grown from something
else.
It's a lovely way of doingthings.
Let's play it Gentle Piece,shall we?
Yeah okay, thank you.

(32:59):
So so ¶¶ so.

Geoff (34:44):
That was beautiful, Stan.
How did it feel playing itagain, because I know you
haven't played for a while.

Stan (34:48):
I mean, I think, with a lot of great music.
The music takes over all theother things you have to deal
with in life, and I reallyenjoyed it.
But just to be able to do alittle thing like that, it gives
us a lot of pleasure, you know,and brings back memories.
Yeah, sure, and the tune likeGentle Piece, it asks different
things of you and things of you.
You don't have to play a lot ofnotes, maybe, or moves.
You can adapt the way you play,which is what I've sort of been

(35:10):
trying to do over the last yearor couple of years, year and a
half it's changed the way.
If you want to do things,there's always a way.
You can find ways, whateveryour problems are.
Yeah yeah, yeah you know, Ialways think of one of my
favourite jazz musicians.
It's Roland Kirk.
I love early Roland Kirk.
I absolutely love Roland, youknow.
And of course he had a strokein the end, you know, and he

(35:31):
could play with one, but he'sstill playing.
You know what I mean with themost ridiculous things and he
still found a way to playbecause he wanted to play.
You know he would do it, and soit's just really nice to play
that again and to talk aboutthat record record.

Geoff (35:44):
Yeah, yeah, fabulous, okay.
So to finish off, I've got somequestions, if that's all right
with you.
Have you got a favorite?
album.

Stan (35:53):
I love Mel, Mel and Thad's band, which I had in 67 and
this record was recorded in 66,is the one with Joe Williams and
I love that record.
So sheer joy, you know, goingback to being a kid, a
Cannonball record.
I love Cannonball at theLighthouse.
You know.
The original record with Victor, I love .
Joe henderson, I love you know.
So pick something of Joe's andJohn Taylor.
You know the trio records hemade, a wonderful.

(36:15):
Actually one of John's ones Ihad I've not heard before but
made don't obviously many, manyyears ago but got released is
the one he made with Norma inGuild, in the Guildhall.
It's fantastic and because Iknew them both and travel them a
bit, and a few times we didgigs together with them and the
memory of those two, that was afantastic pairing.
Those two it's almostimpossible to do because as soon

(36:37):
as you think of anything, ohyeah, but what about?
that, oh no, I mustn't forgetthat one.
Yeah.

Geoff (36:41):
And so it goes on.
Yeah, you've mentioned loads ofthem anyway already.
What about a favourite musician, alive or dead, that you would
like to have played with?

Stan (36:50):
Oh crikey, that is hard, isn't it?

Geoff (36:56):
you've played with so many people.
I just love the fact thatyou've played with Jimi Hendrix
yeah, it's true I mean, it'sjust so diverse.
I know it's so daft, isn't it?

Stan (37:07):
I mean, I'm a massive Herbie Hancock fan, I'd have to
have done it once.
Well, I did because I was astudio player.
I played on the record withJoni Mitchell.
You know, Both Sides Now.

Geoff (37:15):
I played on that was a special record, wasn't it?

Stan (37:18):
Sometimes I'm Happy.
The one where he plays piano,solo I'm only just playing the
written part, but I'm sothrilled that I'm on it because
Herbie's in it.

Geoff (37:27):
That's a magical record, that it really is.
That's Vince Mendoza, isn't it?
It is I mean you've probablytalked about this before, but a
highlight of your career.

Stan (37:36):
Well, there's a slightly.
Well there may be, but I'mtrying to get it put out.
But there are issues to do withwho owns it and stuff is.
I did with John Taylor.
We did a broadcast with theRadio Bremen Symphony Orchestra
of all of John's music, allthese music that he orchestrated
for the symphony orchestra, andJohn did all the writing and

(37:56):
it's just myself and John now.
I played soprano and a bit offlute on it and John plays the
piano and we went to uh Bremenand re called it with the
orchestra there.
It was for broadcast and it was.
We had five days in the studioso it was like rehearse record
one or two and then on the lastday they did a mix and
everything.
I mean I love that record butit's not a record.

(38:19):
It's not anything.
It's a broadcast with a fewpeople I've played it to.
But for it not to existsomewhere for people to hear
John's writing, because thewriting is absolutely fabulous
and John plays fantastic on itand it's a great tragedy that it
doesn't get heard.
And for me it was the mostincredible week.
I'd learned so much from himand admired his music.
That was really the high pointto be asked by him to come play

(38:43):
and do that broadcast.
So I hope he sees the light ofday.

Geoff (38:46):
Yeah, I hope so too.

Stan (38:54):
Yeah, I'd love to hear that.
What was the last concert youattended?
Oh, last something I went to.
Yeah, well, I just went down toWatermill, my local jazz club,
to the Sullivan Fortner Trio.
I went to hear that AmericanFabulous.
Yeah, he's great.
I think he's from New Orleans.
His light touch at the piano,Herbie, touch at the piano, John
Taylor, touch, Victor Feldmanat the piano, touch, Nicky Iles
touch.
They've all got this thingabout sound.

(39:14):
Well, he's got it.
When he puts his hands on apiano, a lot of it will crash
around and do all sorts of stuffFor me.
I mean, it's different fordifferent people and it's like
oh yeah, that's it Fresh andorganic.
Yeah, I've really enjoyed that.
I thought that was a lovelyconcert.

Geoff (39:30):
What would you say is your musical weakness?

Stan (39:33):
One thing I wish I'd have known much earlier.
Well, like an awful lot ofthings I came to sort of try to
learn about let's call it thestandard repertoire, not so much
learning language, because Ididn't do that.
I didn't do any transcribing,which maybe I regret.
But when I was late 30s, comingout of 40, I went and got
lessons and I went to see GeoffSimkins wonderful player, and

(39:57):
he's a fantastic teacher.

Geoff (39:58):
Quite late to be taking lessons, isn't it?
So how was that for you?

Stan (40:01):
Well, I've always enjoyed it, but I've done it with lots
of things.
People think you said I started.
I've asked Phil Lee, he wasfabulous as well.
Phil really helped me,incredibly, and Phil was
teaching me, you know.
And he said you know, youcreate a line, then you've got
to motivate the line.
How do you make the line move?
You know, make a line move?
Well, you play the jazz quaver.
You know, this is in simplisticterms.

(40:22):
Yeah.
You know, and you know yourharmonies, your information.
You know your harmonies, yourinformation, as you're moving to
point to point.
There was a whole set of thingsthat he came up with that made
so much sense that nobody hadever talked about to me.

Geoff (40:34):
I love that phrase.
Motivate the line.
That's a great phrase, isn't?

Stan (40:38):
it.
It is, yeah, how do you make itmove?
Because a lot of people don'tcare, but it's important how you
make that line move.

Geoff (40:43):
And then make it move.
Did that change after you hadthose lessons?
Did that change the way youapproached things then?

Stan (40:48):
Yeah, I started to listen to things in a different way.
I'd never been that interestedbefore, like Warne Marsh and
people like that.
It became a big craze.
I know he did.
But I became very interested inlistening to the way they
played.
This is all the Tristano, whichof course Mark Copeland knew
about that.
I remember playing with Markand once we played a standard
and he said do you knowso-and-so?
I said oh, yeah, so I'm notsure the change is so-and-so.

(41:09):
He said, okay, e minor On a bitof paper.
E minor, nothing, nothing,nothing, nothing B minor.
So it's just, it's the barestbones, you know.
But that's all you neededbecause whatever you played, he
wasn't going to play those roottone centre.

(41:29):
Yeah, he would follow youaround.
So whatever you played, he wasplaying with what you played.
If you play that, I'm going toput green in with that, if you
play that, I'm going to put ablue in there.
So all the chords were likecolours.
So he was painting pictures andyou couldn't play a wrong note.
It didn't exist.
There's a lovely recording withTim Hagens trumpet player that
he made a quartet, one with Billand Gary Peacock.
I've heard that as well.
Yeah, and there's one wherethey play On Green Dolphin

(41:50):
Street.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
The solos are fabulous on it.
It's all linear, playing TimHagans' solo very much in that
way of playing.
So I got very interested inthat.
You know, moved away from allthe kind of.
When I was younger I wasthinking like everybody else,
people telling me.
.
Do you ever get nervous onstage.

(42:15):
Yeah, I used to be terrified allmy life.
I was very as a personality.
My upbringing was quite nervous.
I was very shy, very retired.
I've always been very tall andbig.
I felt awkward as a kid.
I felt like I didn't fit inanywhere really although it's
not true, because people werelovely to me.
So it's not that any of it'snecessarily true, but it's what

(42:35):
you feel like isn't actuallywhat's reality and I've done the
whole bit.
I went through really heavycounselling when my marriage
went and I changed so manythings.
You start to look at yourselfand hold on a minute.
At one point there was a whilewhen beta blockers had applied
and all the guys from orchestras, orchestral players they were
all because you know the Purr,the Sitton orchestra, and nobody

(42:57):
knew.
They didn't tell anybody aboutthat.
A lot of them were starting touse them.

Geoff (43:01):
Just to calm them down.
Calm you down, take thatadrenaline it's an adrenaline.

Stan (43:06):
You're completely crushed by the.
You know, my fingers wereturned to bananas so I couldn't
do anything, you know.
Yeah, yeah, to see the doctorand he put me a small amount and
I, honestly, I only ever tookthem when I had a big gig to do,
concert to do.
I thought I was going to be indanger of going.
I thought I'd try it out and Idid for a while and they worked
Right and it was the first timeI'd ever learned what it was to

(43:27):
not be shaking when I went onthe stage.
My nerves were frozen.
Wow, because you lose some ofthe adrenaline excitement.
That's the rush, that's theprice you pay.
Yeah, but you function.
That's the difference.
Is you function, you know, Imean trying to play the flute.
When you're terrified, I can'ttell you I'm picking it up.
I'm like this shaking, you'retrying to well, that's bad for
stuff.
I think you can't live likethis, playing that.

(43:49):
This isn't a way to make music.
And, of course, I'm so enviousof other people, my life great
players but they're verydifferent in personalities
driven.
Yeah, yeah, they don't have anyfear.
They're not looking at you,they just go out the front and
see.

Geoff (44:00):
Yeah at the front.
Yeah, great bang, especiallyfor young, young musicians as
well.
You, you have to have theconfidence just to get up there
and actually improvise to startwith, don't you?

Stan (44:11):
yeah, it's a big.
It's a big deal.
Somebody said the way thisvoice would put it was it's a
very naked experience.
It's like u n n undressespublic public, isn't it?
You know, because you letpeople see you.
If you're playing, yeah, ifyou're playing for real, yeah,
just playing what's comes out ofyou, and well, you know you're
giving it out.
You don't know whetheranybody's bearing.

Geoff (44:29):
All right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, what's your favorite
sandwich?

Stan (44:34):
oh a sandwich.
Oh, I said that he's a good one, isn't it favourite sandwich?
Oh a sandwich.
Oh, it's a good one isn't it?

Geoff (44:40):
You weren't expecting that, were you?

Stan (44:43):
I've had a few over the years.
They change from time to time.
I tell you what this is nuts.
I had one the other day becausea really nice cheese and big
slices of onion through it.
I used to put that in a rolland it's a simple, very onion
through it.
He used to put that in a roll.
Yeah, and that simple, veryplain thing, you know, with some

(45:04):
salt on it.
You know what about a favoritemovie?
Oh, I do like films.
A musical film, oh, TheProducers great, I absolutely
love that film.
Yeah, for the very first time Iever saw it.
And the idea with the firstproducer, the original yeah,
Zero Mostel.
Yeah, Gene g Wilder yeah, andthat's Springtime for Hitler,
isn't it?
Yeah, I absolutely, Iabsolutely love that film.
I can't say every time I see itI just fall about laughing.
You know what about a favouritevenue?
I used to like the old,original Vortex because I liked

(45:25):
the sound in there.

Geoff (45:26):
That was the one in Newington Newington Stoke N
ewington? ?
Yeah, yeah, it was the upstairs.
Yeah, that was great.

Stan (45:30):
Terrible dodgy old room in the sound in there was great.
It was an old building thatabove a bookshop, wasn't?

Geoff (45:37):
it.

Stan (45:38):
Yeah, and I loved the whole thing about it.
I loved Dave Mossman.
I used to really like Dave.
.
Got on so well with him.
Yeah, I loved the vibe in there.
I loved the people, yeah, andthe gigs were great fun.
It was a great venue.

Geoff (45:49):
I had some great times there.
Yeah, what about travelling,Mark?
Have you got a favourite placein the world, a city or a
country?

Stan (45:57):
I love going to Italy, particularly before things went
wrong health-wise and stuff.
I've had good times there.
Germany I've been a lot.
Of course I've always had somegood cities there.
But Italy's such a lovely place.
I love the food and the peopleare nice, so finally have you
got a favourite chord.
Favourite chord what?
C, c, major, c, major, c, major, no, no, no, not that one,

(46:18):
anything but that, no, not that.
You know, every other filmyou're.
Oh, no, it's that chord again,you know, oh, I don't know.

Geoff (46:27):
That's a very funny one, isn't it?
Yeah?

Stan (46:29):
I really like chords with big extended open tops.
It's a thing I love from MikeGibbs.
You know he knew about whenhe's writing.
Yeah.
He could put three notestogether and you'd have this
huge, because your ear wouldfill in all those.

Geoff (46:40):
So when you're arranging, yeah, yeah, that's a really
good point.
So it might be like a C7.

Stan (46:45):
Very open voices, C7 and up with an A triad over the top
of it or something else.
Yeah, just, I love that stretchyour ear being stretched, and I
do love listening to harmony.
I mean, like a lot of us, I'vebeen through a period of sort of
fanatical about Bill Evans, youknow, and he used to write down
all these things tings, allthese tunes that's the ones you

(47:06):
played.
In actual fact, they don't workvery well with quartets and
quintets.
There's too much information ina way, and that's the other
thing.
It can stop you improvising,because you're just playing.
You're playing on those chordsequences rather than find your
own way through it.
Yeah and not have to designateall the chords in that way.
It's just I don't like the wordslash chords but it's poly

(47:27):
chords.
Yeah, John used those in afantastic way.
Some of those tune, likeWindfall, it's full of them.
It's fantastic and I was aroundwhen he wrote that.
You know when they were comingout.
So I do like that kind ofharmony and that does connect a
little bit with you know some ofthe classical music.
I mean through Mike Gibbsreally I've got very Messiaen
music and but also, you know,Bartók and the Ravel's and all

(47:47):
the rest of them some fantasticwriters.

Geoff (47:50):
Have you put some of that into your big band, which I'm a
particular fan of the tunes onthere?

Stan (47:53):
I did try and do because at that time, as I was doing a
lot of study, I was with a guycalled Jeffery Wilson, who also
was very important to mestudying in composition
composition, composition.
I thought I was going to begoing there and doing
orchestration or just writingfor big bands or orchestra, and
it turned into something else.
He's a lovely guy, he's afantastic teacher spoke to him

(48:14):
recently and he was veryinteresting because he studied
with Messian as well.
Yes, he had some lessons withhim.
He said the thing is, you haveto write true to your heart, he
said, and he told me a lovelystory about with messing with
one of the other students who,as you do, go to him with you.
You know, it's your lesson onThursday and you turn up with
this piece, and so what?
And Mr messian would go and saywhat do you bring to that?
Oh, I've written this, writtenthis new piece, you know, blah,

(48:36):
blah.
And they give it to him to play.
And he looked at it and helooked it through and he played
on the piano and said, yeah,she's very good, excellent, you
know.
He said, but it's not you.
.
to please messiaen, you'rewriting these styles.
You know, don't copy my musicmy is quite diatonic.
Loves a needle it doesn'tmatter what it is.
It's just a language, isn't it?

(48:56):
And what you choose has got tobe the one that you'd like.
I mean, Ken, we know, pared hisdown.
You know he used to write quitecomplex chords with things.
You know, bunches of grapes weused to call them, didn't, you
know, be a bunch of grapeshanging off the top of the chord
, because nobody could ever,you'd never get that far.
You know, by the time you workedit out it's gone, you know, and
Duncan used to say, oh well,they only play off of the big

(49:18):
letters.
You know, it's lovely, Duncan,but because he worked so much
abroad, he realised thedifficulties of getting your
music played.
So, and I know I worked with alot of the people that he worked
with in that period and ofcourse, a lot of the Europeans
that were into sort of freeishjazz.
They weren't into changes atall.
You know Ken does the harmony.
So I know what happens you turnup and the rehearsal's at two

(49:39):
o'clock and the concert's atseven.
You know, somewhere in GermanyEverybody brings a piece to play
.
In this group, Ken's put hispiece in and everybody's oh,
it's a wonderful piece, but youcan see they're all puzzled and
worrying.
You know it's complicating andit would always go to the back
of the book.
Maybe we do this as an encore.

Geoff (49:55):
Yeah, yeah, we do it as the encore, but it runs out of
time?

Stan (49:57):
There is no encore.

Geoff (49:58):
It doesn't get played.
It doesn't get played.

Stan (49:59):
Not because they don't like it, but it's too hard.

Announcement (50:02):
Yeah.

Stan (50:03):
So Ken, I think, simplified his palette.
So if you talk about theartist's palette, which you have
on your arm you have all thesecolours, how can I cut it down?
So there's a a lot of thesetunes like the ones we play,
like minor chords, minor, itdoesn't matter if it's minor,
11th, minor, 7th, whatever it's.
Basically it's a minor chord.
He paired it down to make itand then it reaches so many

(50:24):
people, which he has done, andmakes it accessible did you find
yourself doing that as well,then tried to yeah, because I
think you learn the lesson.
You know you start limiting whatyou write.
You know I'm a writer, I needto write this, and people write
like millions of notes and allthat.
And I'm thinking, well, can youany way you can make it easy?

(50:45):
Do you really need all that?
Yes, I have to have this youknow and that's you know world.
When you get weeks, people payyou to have a week's rehearsal
for one piece or something onsomething.
But the world isn't like that.

Geoff (51:01):
More on my experience but if you don't get the message
through with a simplest, amount.

Stan (51:05):
Writing loads is great because if you've got loads of
stuff, you can always clean out,get rid of it.
Not having very much isdifficult because you haven't
got enough, but a lot of peoplemiss out that step.
The last one is around what canI get rid of that?
Got all this actually.
I don't really need that, ormaybe that's actually a piece of
another piece.
I'll put that outside, I'llsave it.
That might be the start ofanother piece.
I don't need that there andpare it right there.
What actually do you need?

(51:26):
What's essential, you know,yeah, and then get it down to
something meaningful.
Where's the meaningful bit?

Geoff (51:31):
you know, and where's the melody?

Stan (51:33):
you, know where's the melody, where's everything you
know?
You can blind people withscience, with chord sequences
and people just sitting therelike that because it doesn't
mean anything, it's justmillions of chords Well, there
we go, I think, before my laptopgives up the ghost.

Geoff (51:47):
This is on 4%.
I think we should say thank youvery much, Stan.
Thank you, Geoff, it's beenamazing.
Yeah, it's been great.
Really appreciate you talkingto me and this is such a great
life, you know, and so manythings that you've done.

Stan (51:59):
I've been lucky.
I've been very lucky,incredibly lucky.

Geoff (52:03):
Yeah, there's a lot of luck involved and thank you for
the playing as well.
It's just amazing incrediblegood right see you soon.

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