August 8, 2025 • 42 mins
Geoff is at the Troubadour club in London with the highly acclaimed jazz drummer Sebastiaan de Krom.
When a jazz bassist and drummer have played together for 25 years, there's a musical telepathy that can't be taught—it can only be earned through countless gigs, recording sessions, and miles on the road. In this revealing conversation, Sebastiaan opens up about his remarkable journey from banging on pots and pans as a toddler in Holland to becoming one of the UK’s most respected jazz drummers and educators.
Sebastiaan shares the unique way his drummer father taught him—starting with just a snare drum and "earning" additional pieces as he progressed. His story winds through an unexpected year studying law before winning a scholarship to Berklee College of Music, followed by acceptance to the prestigious Thelonious Monk Institute (now the Herbie Hancock Institute). These formative experiences set the stage for his eventual move to London in 1999, where he and Geoff would form a musical partnership that included eight years touring the world with Jamie Cullum.
Throughout their conversation, Sebastiaan reveals deep insights into the art of jazz drumming. He unpacks why Philly Joe Jones remains his greatest influence, demonstrating specific techniques that define Jones' distinctive sound. "His triplet feel is really right in the pocket," Sebastiaan explains, before playing examples that illuminate the subtle differences between drum legends. Jazz aficionados will appreciate Sebastiaan's detailed breakdown of how he approaches playing melodies on drums and building solos from simple motifs.
The most moving moments come when Sebastiaan recounts playing with jazz giants Gene Harris (piano) and Clark Terry (trumpet) — experiences he describes as transcendent. "It was like I was a marionette... it didn't matter what I did, he'd make it sound great." This sense of musical freedom beyond ego or technical concerns remains his ideal.
For anyone passionate about jazz, drumming, or the lifelong pursuit of musical excellence, this conversation offers rare insights from two veterans who've lived the music from the bandstand to the recording studio. Catch Sebastiaan every Sunday at London's historic Troubadour, where he continues the tradition of piano-less jazz inspired by Sonny Rollins—creating space for the music to breathe in new and exciting ways.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in the car and I'mdriving to Earl's Court.
I'm actually playing a gig atthe Troubadour, which is a
little gig that my next guestruns every Sunday night.
His name is Sebastiaan de Kromand he is a fantastic drummer
and educator.
He's one of my oldest friends.
(00:22):
I've known and played with himfor about 25 years now.
We've played together on atleast a few hundred recordings.
We were in Jamie Cullum's bandtogether for eight years, toured
the world, and since then I'veseen him probably every week.
He's the drummer I've playedwith the most and we're playing
tonight at the Troubadour andI'm grabbing him before that,
(00:46):
and we're going to talk a littlebit about him and about
improvising and anything thatcomes up.
Here we go.
Announcement (01:09):
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.
Geoff (01:17):
Sebastiaan de Krom hello .
Sebastiaan (01:18):
Hello Geoff, how are you?
Geoff (01:19):
All right, yeah, haven't seen you for a while.
Sebastiaan (01:21):
Yeah, it's a long, long time, man A few days, isn't
it, I guess so.
So we're playing tonight,aren't we?
Yeah, it's a long, long time,man A few days, isn't it, I
guess so?
Geoff (01:26):
So we're playing tonight, aren't we at the Troubadour?
Sebastiaan (01:28):
We are yes.
Geoff (01:29):
Tell us all about the Troubadour.
How long has it been going?
Sebastiaan (01:32):
Well, the Troubadour itself has been going for quite
a long time.
They started presenting musicsince 1953.
But the Jazz Night started onMother's Day, March 2017.
So, yeah, it's about eightyears going now, including the
COVID years, but it's going allright.
It's going good every Sundaynight.
Geoff (01:52):
And we play without a chordal instrument.
We just play saxophone, bassand drums.
Sebastiaan (01:56):
Yeah, yeah, well, first of all, we don't really
have a piano here.
That's the problem.
But I mean, sometimes I haveguitarists in as well, but it's
mostly like chordless and I findit a real challenge and I hope
that the other musicians find ita nice challenge.
Geoff (02:08):
I love it.
Actually, I love playing withjust the bass drums.
Yeah, me too.
Sebastiaan (02:12):
Is that Sonny Rollins?
Absolutely, he's the king, andthat's sort of what I modeled my
Sunday nights at least Great.
Geoff (02:24):
So I know your dad is a drummer, isn't he?
Is that where you got yourstart?
How did you start?
Sebastiaan (02:27):
Well, I was just banging on pots and pans and
always listening to jazz music.
So when I was about two yearsold he started me off on a toy
drum kit.
But then I think when I wasabout two or three or four he
came up with the real drum kitand he started me off really
with just only the snare.
If I was making progress thenhe would add the hi-hat, then
the right cymbal you have toearn a different part of it.
(02:50):
I had to earn it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (02:52):
And you grew up in Holland, didn't?
Sebastiaan (02:54):
you, I was born in Dordrecht but I didn't grow up
there.
I was a baby when we left and Igrew up in Ede, which is more
or less the middle of Holland,more or less like some of the
center point.
I mean, culturally there wasnot really much going on.
We had a theater culturalcenter, but there was very, very
rarely somebody of interestwould play there.
I saw the Dutchman College Bandthere when I was four.
(03:16):
That was my first properconcert, and two years later I
saw Toots Tillemans there when Iwas six, when I was 17,.
We moved to Brussels, toBelgium, and that was a whole
revelation for me, becauseBrussels was really happening at
that time.
It was sort of like a mini well, what I think about a mini New
York.
A lot of clubs, there were alot of great musicians living
(03:36):
there, quite a few Americanmusicians living there, and I
attended my first jam sessionsthere.
Geoff (03:43):
So yeah, and then you went to study in America, didn't
you?
Sebastiaan (03:46):
That's right, I was actually studying law in my
first year in Louvain.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, I graduated fromhigh school.
I studied law for one year.
Geoff (03:58):
Why didn't I know that I've known you for?
25 years
Sebastiaan (04:00):
I've got dark secrets.
Geoff (04:02):
I'm going to come out today and tell you I'm years,
I've got dark secrets.
Sebastiaan (04:06):
I'm still gonna come out today I tell you I'm gonna
get in there, I'm gonna find outstuff I didn't know.
Yeah, well, there's not much toknow about.
Uh.
But yeah, I did.
I did one year, uh, law studiesand then I won a scholarship to
go to Berkeley.
That summer I went to aworkshop in Perugia and I
thought, like, well, that's it,it was a good scholarship.
So, and uh, my, my mom and dadsaid, okay, you can go, but for
(04:26):
two years, and then after twoyears we'll we'll see if it's
worth it and uh.
So I made sure that I uh, thatI kept my grades up and uh, yeah
, I had a great time and and
Geoff (04:37):
So you were studying at Berkeley.
For what you did?
a degree there.
Sebastiaan (04:41):
I two degrees.
It was a five-year study.
I did a dual degree, againmaybe you don't know this in
music production and engineering, but don't ask me anything
about it because I forgot it all.
But I also studied music,business and management and then
(05:03):
on the side I was playing allthe time and I think my class
was the first class to graduatewith music, business and
management
Because I know you worked for.
Ted Kurland yeah, the greatAmerican, yeah agent yeah,
That's a part of the internship.
So what you had to do at leastthree months or six months of
(05:24):
internship, and my firstinternship was for Ted Kurland,
but in the same building wasalso the manager of Pat Metheny,
David Cholomson, and they sortof worked closely together.
So I did an extra six monthsworking for Pat Metheny.
Actually, I worked for PatMetheny.
Geoff (05:39):
Did you.
Sebastiaan (05:40):
Yeah, never met him but yeah.
So, yeah, I did an internshipthere and a good time and then,
yeah, that was.
Ted Kurland is a big, big fish
Geoff (05:50):
right, but of course you're playing drums all the way
through this, right?
Yeah?
Sebastiaan (05:54):
yeah, yeah, I was playing all the time and
basically people thought that Iwas a performance major.
I was really playing so much andlots of concerts and projects
and school bands Herb Pomeroy'sbig band, which was sort of seen
as the the band to be in, yeah, and got to play a lot with Hal
Crook and with George Garzoneand, yeah, with some other great
(06:16):
teachers there Rick Peckham,and yeah, I had an amazing time.
And then after those five yearsI was ready to go to New York
and uh, what happened then waslike I wanted to do my master's,
which was a two-year study, andI got accepted by New York
University but also by ManhattanSchool of Music, which had John
(06:39):
Riley, who's a famous drumteacher.
But also I did audition for theThelonious Monk Institute,
which is now the Herbie HancockInstitute is the same
organization, and they had a twoyear program, which was still
in Boston, at New EnglandConservatory, and I tried that
out, auditioned, went throughthe first round, went through
(07:00):
the second round, got through afinal, and then suddenly I got a
phone call saying like, yeah,you're in.
Do you want to do a two-yearprogram at New England
Conservatory under the umbrellaof the Thelonious Monk Institute
and I was like, yeah, that'sincredible.
Because everything was paid forand we got to play with a
famous jazz musician every monthfor at least a week.
(07:20):
So it was an incredible,incredible experience.
Geoff (07:23):
Amazing.
So that's seven years of study,right,
Sebastiaan (07:26):
Seven years of study , and then I also did a half
year in between because Istarted in January 92.
So I had to do like onesemester, sort of like work
study, and I did.
actually I followed art historyin Harvard and then I could
like basically graduate with thepeople from my class at the
same time and and then for therest of that year I went to New
(07:50):
York.
So I went, I was living inBrooklyn, was subletting an
apartment from a good friend ofmine, Matt Penman, great bass
player, and yeah, I got to playwith some really great people
there.
And then suddenly out of theblue Guy Barker calls and he
basically had, and that's when Imet you actually.
Geoff (08:09):
Which was around 2000,.
Wasn't it?
Sebastiaan (08:10):
It was 99.
I was still living in New Yorkwhen I first met you, and that
was around the time of TheTalent of Mr Ripley.
That's what we did together,yeah, so, and then in January I
made the decision like, well, myvisa was running out, what do I
do?
Do I stay in the States or am Icoming back to Europe?
European passports were stillvery much popular.
You know, I had a Dutchpassport, but I could live and
(08:32):
work in England, no problem.
And so I came to London and I'vejust been settled ever since
here.
Geoff (08:40):
And then, of course, we started working with Jamie
Cullum together, didn't we?
Yeah, it was 2001.
Sebastiaan (08:44):
You said something like that yeah, yeah, yeah, so
it was through you, actually,that I, yeah, so we put together
a trio and right, we weretogether for what's that?
Eight years?
Eight years, I think.
Yeah, although the last year orso we didn't really play a lot
because there was sort of like asabbatical going on, yeah, but
uh, no, amazing, amazing timeman been around the world.
So thank you very much for that.
(09:06):
It was a really good time,really good time and learned a
lot of being on the road.
It was amazing.
We had such a good time, didn'twe Absolutely, were you always
into jazz.
I was always into jazz.
Yeah, it's very freaky, I don'tknow why.
As a kid I loved it.
I was listening to other stuffas well.
I grew up also with Top of thePops and ABBA and the disco and
(09:29):
all that kind of stuff and therappers.
But yeah, for some reason jazzalways did it for me.
We had a couple of Stan Getzrecords at home.
We had some Jimmy Smith records, Gerry Mulligan, Dave Brubeck,
and I was always playing alongwith those records.
Geoff (09:46):
So who are your drum influences then?
Sebastiaan (09:47):
Well, I would say, definitely Philly Joe Jones is
my biggest drum influence,because a little bit later my
dad bought me some Miles Davisrecords.
My auntie had a few Miles Davisrecordings.
I loved the first quintet withColtrane and Red Garland, Paul
James and Philly Joe Jones and Iwas like, yeah, that's it.
That's the way I think a jazzdrummer should sound like.
Geoff (10:05):
Right, the sound, the swing.
So what is it about Philly JoeJones?
Because I, to be honest, as abass player, I can't distinguish
between Philly Joe Jones, BillyHiggins, you know all the great
swinging drummers.
A lot of them sound quitesimilar through that sort of 50s
period, don't they?
So what is it that sets himapart?
Sebastiaan (10:26):
I think first of all it's the swing.
His triplet feel is really, Ithink, right in the pocket.
Some drummers have a skip beatthat is slightly more straight
going towards a straight eightThings like.
Billy Higgins has a bit more ofa straight eight-ish kind of
feel, Max Rojas has it a littlebit, Tony Williams and Roy
Haynes have the opposite.
(10:46):
They've got more of a 16th kindof vibe to it.
And Philly Joe for me is rightin the middle.
Blakey is also like verytriplety.
So is Elvin, but Elvin has thatreally laid back kind of yeah
vibe.
And Philly Joe for me is reallylike he's, he's there and he's,
he's especially him and MilesDavis.
If you listen to, like whenMiles is playing he's playing
off the drummer and Philly Joeis just filling in the gaps and
(11:09):
giving him some great ideas andthere's really like a good
question answer.
His ears are always open, he'salways interacting without
actually sacrificing the grooveright um, which you know, if you
have drums who have a similarstyle, like Jimmy Cobb or Art
Taylor, they have that as well,but they are a little bit less
interactive.
They're a little bit more of aside man.
(11:31):
Philly Joe is really likepushing to be almost like a
front man and okay, he's gotsome really hip hip stuff
Geoff (11:36):
But you don't play like that, though, do, do you?
Sebastiaan (11:38):
I don't know, you tell me I think you play as a
supportive role when you play.
Yeah, but that's the lesson Ilearned from people like Billy
Higgins and Jimmy Cobb and ArtTaylor.
I still think that a drumshould be, first and foremost,
an accompanying instrument.
Geoff (11:53):
I still can't tell the difference though.
Sebastiaan (11:54):
No, no, no, that's fine, but I'm a drummer so I
listen to those kind of things.
Geoff (12:02):
You have that with bass players.
Probably you listen to a lotmore jazz than I do.
Sebastiaan (12:04):
I would say yeah, probably.
Geoff (12:06):
You're a proper jazz nerd , aren't?
You, I'm a jazz nerd, yeah, Imean you know dates, you know
alternate takes, you know wholealbums.
Sebastiaan (12:14):
It's quite sad isn't it.
It is sad because it's info youcannot use at all.
Geoff (12:21):
It's not, it's a it's a thorough love of the music, is
what it is.
Yeah, you know, yeah I love it.
Sebastiaan (12:27):
I love it.
It's really true.
It's like it's not that I don'tlisten to other stuff of music,
but I find it harder and harderto like listen to stuff that
I'm not really into.
And and I'm trying to, but Idon't have an open mind maybe as
you have.
No, no, but that's fine andit's all good.
You know, you know much moreabout pop and R&B and funk and
(12:49):
all that kind of stuff which isgreat.
I'm envious of that.
But I guess somewhere in me islike man, I want a good swinging
groove.
It's like, yeah, that's it.
Geoff (12:58):
When you listen to a box set, for example, you'll start
from track one and you'll go allthe way through to the end.
Yeah, yeah, I do that, you do.
Sebastiaan (13:06):
Well, the thing is this, though that happened in
your car, I don't know if youremember.
There's a famous CannonballAdderley album that we both have
something else, and my favoritetrack is the last track on the
cd, which is a bonus track whichwas not in the original album,
and I played that for you and Inever heard it.
You never heard it.
You said, man, this is great.
(13:27):
What is that?
It's like?
this is on your iPod.
So I'm ashamed.
No, that's okay.
But yeah, I I have the patience, I guess, to listen from, and
even if it's not really a goodalbum, I listen to the beginning
.
If it's an artist that I likeand respect, I will give it at
least two, three, four listensand then I will sort of like
read it from the beginning tothe end, because there are some
(13:48):
gems later on that you mightmiss.
Geoff (13:52):
Do you apply that kind of attitude to your teaching, for
example, because I know youteach a lot, yeah.
So teaching, for example,because I know you teach a lot,
yeah, so how, how do you goabout your teaching?
What's you do?
You have a method.
Sebastiaan (14:05):
I really like teaching from the John Riley
books.
John has now four books outthat are really good, very
musical.
They they talk about being aprofessional drummer.
A little bit it's aboutaccompanying, it's about soloing
, it's about, you know, goodexercises on that, about in
order of whatever combination ofcoordinations and all that kind
of stuff.
So I really like to use that aslike sort of the route I want to
(14:28):
go with, because it reallycompartmentalizes everything
that a student should know,right, okay, but on the other
hand, you cannot learn musicfrom a book.
So I also want them to listento recordings and maybe try to
imitate a drummer or eventranscribe stuff and maybe focus
in on like small phrases of asolo.
(14:50):
How do they stick this?
There's different stickingspossible on this and which one
is the best for you, you know,and it's very interesting
because everybody's differentand so I think books are really
useful and I use those writingbooks as sort of like the route
to take, but if it needs to bediverted, that's fine, and also
I don't want to fall into thetrap of like you learn music
(15:12):
from a book because you don't.
You need to play it, you needto listen to it.
It's all on the records,
Geoff (15:17):
yeah, and I to play it.
You need to listen to it.
It's all on the records.
Yeah, and I know you teach.
You teach at Purcell, don't you?
Sebastiaan (15:23):
that's right, yeah, which is a very high level.
Yeah, so school for youngmusicians.
For people who don't know it,it's in north west London, um,
there's kids coming from allover the world.
It's a boarding school most ofit.
There's some day students aswell, and, um, they come from
all over the world and the agesare between 8 and 20.
Geoff (15:43):
Do you ever get the eight-year-olds playing with the
20-year-olds?
Sebastiaan (15:46):
It's not like no, probably not so much, because
the age difference is too bigand the level is still too big.
But it happens sometimes that Ihave, uh, 14, 15 years year
olds who can play with the 18,19 year olds.
No problem, you know, and theycan do gigs, man.
I mean, they're frightening,they're frighteningly good man.
It's great stuff for me, man,they keep me on my toes.
Geoff (16:07):
Playing with older musicians is the education that
young people need, isn't it?
Young musicians play.
Sebastiaan (16:13):
I guess we both learned from the older guys
because they've been there andit's like, in the beginning I
can understand it, like I waslike that oh, I'm young and
everything goes my way, it goeswell, and you know, I know it
all better and all that kind ofstuff, yeah.
And then suddenly you, you comemore and more road wary and and
you're like, oh right, okay,how do I, how did those guys do
(16:34):
that, you know?
and then I learned a lot fromthem
Geoff (16:37):
So hopefully young people are learning from us now.
I hope so.
Funny because my my son, Lewis,who plays bass, he played good.
He came down here last week andsat in with him.
Did you have a good time?
Yeah?
he did yeah yeah, yeah, okay Ithink he was surprised, you know
, when he played with you and Isaid, I said, well, you gotta
play with Seb, you know, becauseI've played with him such a lot
and I know what it feels like.
And he said afterwards oh, he'svery forward or he's very, very
(17:02):
strong and very, you know,especially during the solos.
You know Right, because I thinka lot of students they get to a
bass solo and the drummer willdrop out and there's no support.
You know, but what you dobehind a bass solo is well, you
play the same intensity butquieter.
Sebastiaan (17:17):
Well, that's actually what I learned from you
really.
I mean, solo is where you playthe same intensity but quieter.
Well, that's, that's actuallywhat I learned from you really.
I mean, we had this discussion,quite.
We talked a lot about learnsomething from me.
What happens a lot in bandsstill of good plays as well when
the bass solo comes, it sort ofdrops the energy drops and you
were saying to me like no, don'tplay, play more.
Like you're playing behind thepiano or behind the horn play.
I like that yeah you like that,but other bass players might not
(17:39):
yeah so I'm always trying tofigure out like depends on how
they play and I guess also theirpersonality and all that.
Everybody has their own way oflike, how they like to be
accompanied, and I know you likea stronger drummer behind you,
like with more interaction, butmaybe somebody else might not.
You know, and I sort of make amental note of people who you're
(18:01):
playing with, who you'replaying with, so I'm with you.
I know, right, Geoff likesduring the bass solo that I'm a
little bit more interactive.
So I'll do that or try to dothat, and then maybe with
somebody else they might say, um, well, a little bit less, maybe
Geoff (18:19):
So let's talk about Quartet, shall we
Sebastiaan (18:21):
Okay?
At the apps.
That's what we're here for.
Geoff (18:23):
So we have now four volumes.
Amazing, of which you're on allof them.
Sebastiaan (18:29):
I don't know how you keep up with me, man.
Yeah Well, I'm very, veryhonoured to be on all of them.
Geoff (18:33):
What was the experience like of playing on these apps?
Sebastiaan (18:36):
It's quite an experience because we recorded a
lot of tunes in just a few daysit was.
It was a really good experience.
But you know what I like aboutit is you have to work with
people that a you can trust, byou respect, but also c.
that can do the work, that cando the work and you're quite a
fast worker.
(18:57):
I like that.
No, no, I like that, but it wasnever more than two or three
takes, not that that's no onetake.
Geoff (19:03):
That was one take most of the time, mostly, yeah.
Sebastiaan (19:05):
But we need to have people that are reliable, that
come in time, that can play themusic without any problem, and
they know that the pressure ison for every take to be good,
you know, and be disciplinedabout it, and not everybody is
like that.
Yeah, I was knackered though,man it was tiring.
Geoff (19:24):
It was really tiring Players that can play with a
click as well.
Yeah, you haven't mentionedthat.
Yeah, yeah, and what I loveabout playing with you as well
is you can play on a click andthe click is not an issue.
It's never an issue, is it?
We did all those 500 tunesright.
Sebastiaan (19:41):
Well, that's good.
That's good, I mean, withoutsounding too arrogant or
whatever, but I think I canfocus really well if there's, if
there's something to need to bedone and I'm, for instance,
that day I'm like right, I knowwe've got only one take for for
every, or maybe two for a few,but and you gave me also
instructions not to play overthe bar line because of you know
the way the program works, soyou need to keep that in mind.
(20:02):
There's a job to be done hereand we're gonna.
We're gonna do it and I'm Ithink I'm good enough to do it
Geoff (20:09):
Disciplined.
Yeah, it's all about that.
Yeah, and organization, youknow all that stuff.
Sebastiaan (20:13):
Well, you're very organized anyhow, so that makes
it a lot easier.
Yeah, so.
So you're gonna play the tuneon the drums I wanna like sort
of play two choruses with just arhythm section and uh, play
first maybe the melody of Oleo,which is based on I Got Rhythm
(20:34):
okay, and uh, then in the secondchorus, play a solo.
Geoff (20:39):
Okay, based upon that talk to us briefly about what
that means.
Sebastiaan (20:43):
Well, how you do that on a non-pitched instrument
yeah, well, you say it'snon-pitched, but actually you
can actually have, you know,with a bit of manipulation again
, oh yeah, yeah, you know, okay,but okay, no, but somebody like
Max Roach, for instance, reallymade me realize you can play
melodies on it as well.
It's the way you orchestrate it, but it's also the rhythms.
(21:04):
Oleo has a very distinctiverhythm in the melody that
probably people will recognize,even if I play it on one pitch.
Geoff (21:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Can you just give an example onthe drums?
Sebastiaan (21:15):
Yeah, one, two one, two, three, four.
Geoff (21:27):
Okay, so great.
So what you're doing there?
You're keeping the hi-hat going, though aren't you.
Announcement (21:31):
Yeah, you're on two and four.
Geoff (21:33):
Two and four yeah, so that's kind of nailing the swing
, yeah, and in your hands you'replaying the.
Sebastiaan (21:37):
The melody.
Geoff (21:38):
Playing the melody.
Yeah, yeah, would you play thaton other drums as well, would
you?
Because you just played it onthe snare, didn't you?
Sebastiaan (21:44):
yeah, I played it only on the snare, but you can
orchestrate it.
Uh, if I do it with another tom, it's like um
Let's put the track on, okay,and see what happens.
All right, it's an eight barintro.
Right, it's an eight barintroduction.
(22:04):
Okay, here it comes.
Thank you, wow, that's great.
(23:34):
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Yeah, okay, can I ask you aboutsoloing?
Sure so where do you start at adrum solo what's?
How do you start learning howto solo this?
is a good one listening to, to the records.
I always like drummers thatbuild up a solo if I have the
time, because you know I like totake my drums as a little bit
(23:55):
of time.
But that gives me the chance todevelop stuff with one or two
motifs, melody, I'm thinkingmelody, maybe not so much rhythm
, yet okay, and actually a verygood source for me is nursery
rhymes or very simple, almostlike stupid ideas you know that
are that are just quarter notesstart with a very simple idea.
(24:18):
During the development of thatidea, second idea might come up
and it might start to mix thosetwo and then you get more and
more into like, into a jungle Iguess, of like little ideas that
are like sort of like threadedtogether by that one or two
simple idea that you had in thebeginning
So did you do a lot oftranscribing
(24:39):
So I listened to a lot, a lot of records I know you
do, yeah and and a lot of drumsolos as well.
The physical fact oftranscribing I've did do quite a
few transcriptions, yes
Geoff (24:53):
Was there anything particular that you you can
recall that you one particulardrum lick or drum thing that
inspired you that you couldactually play for us?
Sebastiaan (25:03):
Yeah, yeah it was a Philly Joe Jones solo.
I don't know if I've everwritten this down, but it's
basically.
The lick is like this I do iton brushes One, two, a one, a
(25:28):
typical Philly Joe Jones solo.
It has triplets.
Geoff (25:31):
Lots of triplets, yeah.
Sebastiaan (25:38):
With those accents.
Okay, I've learned that myself.
Okay, it's only snare and it'saccents.
I've learned that myself.
Okay, it's only snare and it'saccents.
When I listened to Philly Joe,he was so quick that I thought,
like you know, in drums we talkabout your strong hand and your
weak hand, and I'm right-handed.
So my right hand is my stronghand, left hand is my weak hand.
Left hand is my weak hand.
For some reason, I preferredplaying that with two rights and
(26:03):
one left, so it's right, right,left, right right, left, right,
right, left, right, yeah, soone two, three, four Right right
left right right left, right,right, left, right.
Yeah, okay, years later Ifigured out he's doing singles.
He's doing right, left, right,left, right, left.
Geoff (26:23):
So he goes, but that would mean you have to accent
each chant.
Sebastiaan (26:28):
There's a different combination in accents, so he
plays with the accents.
I'll just say the accents One,two, three, four, left right,
left right, left right, leftright, left right, left right,
left right, left right, leftright.
But if I did it my way withright left, you get left right.
(26:49):
So that's a differentcombination, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, it sounds thesame, it's not.
Well, I hope it sounds the same.
The funny thing is this, though,Geoff when I was in the
Thelonious Monk institute at NewEngland Conservatory,
Conservatoire, one of myteachers was Charlie Persip.
(27:12):
It was a great, great jazzdrummer, played with Dizzy
Gillespie and with Red Garland,Cannonball Adderley and all
those people, and he was a goodfriend of Philly Joe.
They made actually a couple ofalbums together.
And I said to him, when we'retalking about Philly Joe and how
he plays that lick, and I said,well, I know he's playing the
singles, but I'm doing the right, right, left, right, right,
(27:34):
right, so I'm smuggling a littlebit.
He's like, well, play them forme.
So first I played him the singlethe way that Philly Joe does,
and then my version.
He's like, yeah, he says bothsound fine, but he says the
better one is actually the waythat you prefer to play it the
right, right, left, right left.
And that's you.
And he says that's the beautyof jazz.
He says that is you, that isyour individuality.
(27:56):
So don't see it as a mistake,see it as another approach
Geoff (28:01):
I guess everyone, everyone strives for their own
thing, don't they?
and that's something that takesa long time, doesn't?
it.
Sebastiaan (28:05):
Yeah, and I think also, what a lot of people then.
They, I think they're sort ofconfused.
They think, like jazz alwayshas to be creative and different
and all that.
Yes, okay, you don't want to bepredictable or whatever, but
there's also a phase where youhave to imitate the masters,
they're masters, not for nothingyou know there's a reason for
that.
Then you try to interpret ityour way and I think that's
(28:28):
where a lot of people go wrong.
They just think like no, Icannot play that lick at all,
and you know I have to playdifferent stuff, and they miss
the boat, I think.
And I think it's just thatself-discovery of like okay, I'm
doing it my way, it sounds good, I think, but it's actually the
wrong way if I want to be likePhilly Joe or something like
that.
Geoff (28:55):
So any recollections about our years on the road
together.
Sebastiaan (28:59):
Oh yes, oh yes, very , very good recollections.
Quite a lot actually.
But I tell you what musicallyamazing was how quickly that we
I don't know how you experiencedit, but there was sort of a
telepathic understanding.
We didn't have set lists, right, we just after a while we felt
(29:20):
what the next tune was going tobe and we all thought the same
way yeah, and it became so good.
I mean, that was the real.
It was like you couldn't leanback.
Telepathy is yeah.
Geoff (29:29):
Telep the real.
Sebastiaan (29:29):
It was like you could have been telepathy is yet
telepathy, yeah, but you couldalso lean back because you know
that, okay, I think he's gonnado this next tune and yeah,
there it came, you know, andthen, yeah, and then immediately
we played it and it was soconsistent, it was very
consistent, yeah, and and it wasamazing and it also seemed like
at that time like whatever wedid, we could put our own spin
(29:50):
to it and it sort of foundresonance with a big audience.
Geoff (29:54):
I think it was great.
Do you remember we went toAuckland oh yeah.
Yeah, so we stayed at thathotel, didn't we in the harbour?
Yeah, and never forget, it waslike the windows of the hotel
were right up against the dock.
Sebastiaan (30:07):
Well, the hotel was like a boat, was like sort of a
ship that was moored, it wentinto the water.
It was modelled after a cruiseship.
Geoff (30:15):
Yeah, and it was a beautiful view, you know, over
the whole harbour.
I remember going to bed, youknow, pulling the curtains.
Next morning I pulled thecurtains and overnight a bloody
great big ship had pulled in andthe window was five yards from
my window.
It was like someone else waslooking in my window, but I
think you.
Sebastiaan (30:34):
You didn't realize, but there was a note on the bed
watch out, with, like, openingyour curtains this morning
because there will be a cruiseship.
I will be more next to thehotel, yeah, oh it was funny.
Geoff (30:45):
Yeah, it was great, but also, it was, it was amazing
because we did all the festivals, didn't we?
we did.
We did Glastonbury, yeah, FujiRock yeah.
Sebastiaan (30:51):
We did the Playboy Jazz Festival in the Hollywood
Ball with the rotating stage.
Remember that.
Yeah, with Stanley Clarke yeahand all that.
Geoff (30:59):
Yeah, I got to meet Stanley Clarke.
That was.
That was another story, wasn'tit?
Sebastiaan (31:02):
yeah, that was a great story.
Um, oh man, yeah, it's allcoming flooding back.
Remember Newport.
I really thought Newport was areal good.
Geoff (31:11):
We went sailing in Newport.
Harbour and I got stuck on thereeds.
Sebastiaan (31:13):
I was with you in the boat.
Geoff (31:16):
Oh, I could sail.
I've had to sail since I was 15.
Sebastiaan (31:21):
Yes, he hadn't sailed since he was 50.
Oh, that was funny.
It was fun.
Geoff (31:26):
It was fun, good fun and good memories, but you haven't
been able to shake me off.
Since then We've playedtogether almost every week.
Sebastiaan (31:34):
We played a lot Well .
Thank you for that, but youkept on asking me for your
projects, and also with Trudy.
Geoff (31:41):
You're reliable and you can play with a click.
You know, because I make a lotof library, you know.
Yeah, that's true, that's whatyou know.
Sebastiaan (31:47):
Yeah, that's true, that's what you know.
Yeah, you give me a lot of work, so thank you for that.
That's all right, you can payme back one day.
Geoff (31:51):
Well, you pay me back by giving me a kick down at the
Troubadour.
yeah, Right, so I'm going tofinish off.
I've got a few questions, ifthat's all right, yeah, first
question is what's yourfavourite album?
Sebastiaan (32:10):
Well, I have to give the cliche answer I think Kind
of Blue is.
It's funny.
It's not a record that I listena lot to anymore, but I know it
so well that it's like it's inmy mind.
Miles Davis for Kind of Blue.
I know it's not a surprise, butit really is a masterpiece,
isn't it?
Geoff (32:20):
Well, that's kind of answering.
The second question isfavourite musician a lie or dead
?
Who'd like to play with?
I mean Miles.
Sebastiaan (32:26):
Absolutely Miles for me is Bach, Beethoven, Mozart
in one, you know.
Yeah, it's not that not to saythat I like everything that he
did, but most of it what he did.
Yes, it was really good and wasamazing.
It was not just good, it wasamazing, it was like in the
forefront
Geoff (32:42):
And constantly changing.
As well, wasn't he?
Sebastiaan (32:44):
and yeah, yeah and while, and while retaining his
own identity, which is, yeah,yeah, yeah, incredible and you
may have already answered thisquestion as well earlier on but
and while retaining his ownidentity, which is incredible.
Geoff (32:51):
And you may have already answered this question as well
earlier on, but the highlight ofyour career, best gig moment?
Sebastiaan (32:56):
Okay , no, I haven't probably.
Oh, I'm sorry, Geoff, it's notwith me then.
No, there were a lot of greatmoments.
Now can I do two?
Yeah, the first one was in thesummer of 98.
Now I'm gonna name drop stuff.
I had done the tour alreadywith Herbie, Herbie Hancock
through the 'clang', there we go, that's all right, which was
(33:18):
amazing.
Amazing, that was through theMonk Institute.
That was through the MonkInstitute, yeah, and that was in
South America.
But that same summer I did atour and it was actually my
first UK tour before I livedhere.
It was two weeks with GeneHarris, pianist Gene Harris, and
Martin Drew was actually thedrummer, but he got a call from
(33:38):
Oscar Peterson and the touroverlapped.
So I was asked to do the lastweek or the last two weeks.
It was with Jim Mullen and withEddie Klein, but playing with
Gene Harris, that was wasamazing.
We had never rehearsed together,we'd never met each other, and
the first two gigs were at thePizza Express and my mom and dad
(34:00):
were there as well, which wasreally good fun.
And, um, I said to them uh,when can I meet Gene Harris?
Oh, he's having lunch at thePizza Express.
Come at one o'clock at thePizza Express, okay.
So I go towards him and Iintroduce myself.
It's like, okay, I'm going tobe playing the rest of the tour
with you.
Okay, great, great.
And I said what time is therehearsal?
And he says, no, man, therewon't be any rehearsal.
(34:22):
Are you thirsty?
Yeah, just no, we're stillafter nine o'clock.
Remember it was Peter Wallace'sday.
So, uh, he said, show up oneminute before nine and we'll,
we'll hit it off, you know.
And actually that's sort of Ithought like man, I finally got
a chance to play with someonethat there's no rehearsal, I
don't know what he's gonna play,I had no idea and I was like
just geez, geez.
So I was a bit worried about itthe whole day.
(34:44):
And then I think Jim Mullen sawme about like, say like half
hour before the gig, and he'slike don't worry about a thing,
man, it will be all right.
And literally we went on stageGeoff , from the first moment it
was like we've played 25 yearstogether and I thought that's
how I want to be as a musician.
(35:05):
And that same level of greatexperience.
I had it with Clark Terry aswell.
That was like I played drumsand it was.
Somebody else was like I waslike a marionette, I was like my
hands were doing just, itdidn't matter.
It was the feeling it doesn'tmatter what I do, he'll make it
sound great.
Yeah, and that is an incrediblefreedom and that's what I want
(35:26):
to achieve.
You know, it's just thategoless.
Yeah, do whatever you want todo.
Tony Williams says it in aninterview about Miles as well Do
whatever you want to do, itwill sound great, it will sound
fine, and that is a very specialfeeling.
Not that many musicians havethat, but that was very, very
(35:46):
special, and both of those guysare not with us anymore, so
that's something that I really,really cherish, and other people
as well.
Like I remember playing withJackie McLean for a week.
The sound of the saxophone wasjust unbelievable.
I literally got goosebumps justabout the sound, the sheer size
of the sound.
Geoff (36:06):
Well, speaking of that, do you remember when Toots
Thielemans?
sat in with the Jamie CullenBand band.
Where was that?
In Brussels.
It was in Brussels yeah, he cameand played two tunes with us.
Sebastiaan (36:15):
I I was crying on stage, you remember yeah, it's
the emotion that that came outfrom that guy when he played the
harmonica unbelievableunbelievable and it's like so
hard to explain that to to toother musicians, but you have to
experience that, and what Ifound amazing about him is he
could play notes that were notpart of the chord, but just make
it work.
And you're like how on earth doyou do that?
(36:38):
I've got that also with PhilipCatherine, who's a really good
guitarist and he's got greattiming, and I'm saying to him
how do you do that?
Ooh, I just do, I just do, andI think that's just the way that
people hear it that way, butit's magic, it's magic, it's
magical.
Geoff (36:53):
Well, that was a very long answer to a very short
question.
That's okay, that's a goodanswer.
What was the last concert youwent to?
Sebastiaan (37:02):
That is quite a while ago.
I think the last concert I wentto is also one of my idols,
Charles Lloyd in the Barbican.
Oh yeah, it's been a whilethat's been.
Geoff (37:12):
That was more than a year ago, that's because you're
working all the time, you don'thave time to go out yeah, yeah,
and if I do have time to go out,I'm knackered.
Sebastiaan (37:20):
Yeah.
So Charles Lloyd amazing, andthat's.
He's also one of those peoplethat has magic.
And he had the people that Isaw that I was speechless.
I've seen them several timesCharles Lloyd, Ahmad Jamal and
Pat Martino.
When I saw those guys live, Ijust had two hours just to
(37:40):
myself.
I just didn't want to, it wasjust so amazing.
Geoff (37:43):
What would you say was your musical weakness?
Sebastiaan (37:46):
My musical weakness is actually funny.
You know, there's a bit ofdiscipline in practicing
practicing that's.
I was never really a practiceanimal.
That started more or less whenI was at Berkeley um before you
mean, you don't practice enoughI don't know, if I practiced
more I would have.
I would have been a lot better.
So there's technicaltechnicalities and maybe also
musical theory.
(38:06):
I know my musical theory andall that, but I'm not really
super strong at that, you know.
Geoff (38:12):
But you're not expected to.
I mean, you're a you know.
Sebastiaan (38:14):
Yeah, but that's not an excuse is it?
Geoff (38:15):
You're a drummer.
Sebastiaan (38:19):
Yeah, but that's not an excuse anymore, is it?
Yeah, well, I think it'simportant that you know the tune
as well.
You know?
Geoff (38:25):
Absolutely, you know how Just Friends goes and you can
phrase accordingly, can't youabsolutely, and, and you know
you're not just playing 32 bars,you're, you're creating
something around the tune.
Sebastiaan (38:36):
Yeah, and very important you don't want to play
spangling, spangling, spanglingthe whole time, you know.
So the more you know, thebetter you become.
Do you ever get nervous onstage?
Not anymore.
I used to and I, to be honest,that's always a good sign if
you're a little bit nervous,because that gives you a bit of
an edge.
If you're not nervous, I thinkthen you're too comfortable with
(38:56):
the music and that's that's adanger, because I think there
should be a bit of like raw edgeto the music as well.
The certain gigs you get morenervous, like with Jamie, I
never got nervous but RayGelato's gigs.
Sometimes I got a bit nervousbecause that's very drum
dependent and it's very intensethe whole time and it's like
Matt Bianco is a bit like thatas well, that's.
Geoff (39:18):
Another band that we play together is Matt Bianco.
We've been doing that for 6 or7 years now haven't we and
that's a very drum intensive gigisn't it absolutely so?
Sebastiaan (39:27):
I guess the more drum-intensive gigs and it's not
that it's it's kicking thestamina up, isn't it Exactly?
Geoff (39:32):
yeah, I think that's probably what it is.
Yeah, what's your favouritesandwich?
Sebastiaan (39:37):
Ooh, steak sandwich.
Geoff (39:39):
Okay, yeah, might go and have one in a minute, all right.
What about a favourite movie
Sebastiaan (39:51):
Man?
Okay, yeah, yeah, 12 Angry Men.
Henry Fonda, Henry Fonda, but Ilike the fact because it's
actually a play, isn't it?
And then the fact that it takesplace in one room.
It's actually one scene, reallyand I find it amazing and so
intriguing.
How long is that movie?
An hour and a half, you just.
You're so gripped by it and howhe, one by one, persuades all
the judges.
Geoff (40:05):
You know, it's amazing what about a favorite venue?
Sebastiaan (40:08):
Well, the Troubadour of course, yeah Troubadour, of
course it is cozy down here itis very cozy and and the staff
is amazing uh, I mean most.
Geoff (40:17):
Most people say the Albert Hall don't they.
Sebastiaan (40:19):
Well, actually, but that's a hard, that's a hard
place to play.
That's, the acoustics are anightmare there.
Yeah, I think, like what yousaid, places like this that have
good acoustics, it really makeshalf the gig already right,
yeah, and so you don't have toworry about it.
But another I like Café Bravoin Bologna.
It's a super small stage.
That's where we're going onThursday, yeah, but I'm not with
you on that one.
You're not coming.
I'm not coming, I'm in Japan,okay.
(40:54):
So that leads me to the nextokay city, Santiago in Chile.
That was amazing, that was areal all right.
Okay, uh country, I think,Chile is is very special.
But Italy, Japan, I think thoseare like very, very special
countries yeah
Geoff (41:01):
And the very last question uh, your favorite chord
Sebastiaan (41:04):
Favorite chord?
yeah minus seven flat five.
Okay, the half diminished chord.
I really like that.
Why is that?
Then I can play that on thepiano and it sounds really good.
I mean, I made a tune with alot of half diminished chords
and it's like yeah okay, I washappy with that, all right.
Geoff (41:21):
Well, I think that'll wrap it up.
I think, very good.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
That's being lots of greatinformation there, and um, and
I'm looking forward to playinglater on me too.
We're going to play some Brarsalis Marsalis tonight,
Sebastiaan (41:32):
uh absolutely, and some Sonny Rollins and um pay
tribute to those masters youknow great so thank you, by the
way, for all the opportunities.
That's really much appreciated
Geoff (41:41):
my pleasure
Sebastiaan (41:42):
.
Geoff (41:42):
Let's go and have a, have a meal now, shall we steak
sandwich?
all right, all right, bye
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com
Hello podcats Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in the car and I'mdriving to Earl's Court.
I'm actually playing a gig atthe Troubadour, which is a
little gig that my next guestruns every Sunday night.
His name is Sebastiaan de Kromand he is a fantastic drummer
and educator.
He's one of my oldest friends.
(00:22):
I've known and played with himfor about 25 years now.
We've played together on atleast a few hundred recordings.
We were in Jamie Cullum's bandtogether for eight years, toured
the world, and since then I'veseen him probably every week.
He's the drummer I've playedwith the most and we're playing
tonight at the Troubadour andI'm grabbing him before that,
(00:46):
and we're going to talk a littlebit about him and about
improvising and anything thatcomes up.
Here we go.
Announcement (01:09):
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.
Geoff (01:17):
Sebastiaan de Krom hello .
Sebastiaan (01:18):
Hello Geoff, how are you?
Geoff (01:19):
All right, yeah, haven't seen you for a while.
Sebastiaan (01:21):
Yeah, it's a long, long time, man A few days, isn't
it, I guess so.
So we're playing tonight,aren't we?
Yeah, it's a long, long time,man A few days, isn't it, I
guess so?
Geoff (01:26):
So we're playing tonight, aren't we at the Troubadour?
Sebastiaan (01:28):
We are yes.
Geoff (01:29):
Tell us all about the Troubadour.
How long has it been going?
Sebastiaan (01:32):
Well, the Troubadour itself has been going for quite
a long time.
They started presenting musicsince 1953.
But the Jazz Night started onMother's Day, March 2017.
So, yeah, it's about eightyears going now, including the
COVID years, but it's going allright.
It's going good every Sundaynight.
Geoff (01:52):
And we play without a chordal instrument.
We just play saxophone, bassand drums.
Sebastiaan (01:56):
Yeah, yeah, well, first of all, we don't really
have a piano here.
That's the problem.
But I mean, sometimes I haveguitarists in as well, but it's
mostly like chordless and I findit a real challenge and I hope
that the other musicians find ita nice challenge.
Geoff (02:08):
I love it.
Actually, I love playing withjust the bass drums.
Yeah, me too.
Sebastiaan (02:12):
Is that Sonny Rollins?
Absolutely, he's the king, andthat's sort of what I modeled my
Sunday nights at least Great.
Geoff (02:24):
So I know your dad is a drummer, isn't he?
Is that where you got yourstart?
How did you start?
Sebastiaan (02:27):
Well, I was just banging on pots and pans and
always listening to jazz music.
So when I was about two yearsold he started me off on a toy
drum kit.
But then I think when I wasabout two or three or four he
came up with the real drum kitand he started me off really
with just only the snare.
If I was making progress thenhe would add the hi-hat, then
the right cymbal you have toearn a different part of it.
(02:50):
I had to earn it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (02:52):
And you grew up in Holland, didn't?
Sebastiaan (02:54):
you, I was born in Dordrecht but I didn't grow up
there.
I was a baby when we left and Igrew up in Ede, which is more
or less the middle of Holland,more or less like some of the
center point.
I mean, culturally there wasnot really much going on.
We had a theater culturalcenter, but there was very, very
rarely somebody of interestwould play there.
I saw the Dutchman College Bandthere when I was four.
(03:16):
That was my first properconcert, and two years later I
saw Toots Tillemans there when Iwas six, when I was 17,.
We moved to Brussels, toBelgium, and that was a whole
revelation for me, becauseBrussels was really happening at
that time.
It was sort of like a mini well, what I think about a mini New
York.
A lot of clubs, there were alot of great musicians living
(03:36):
there, quite a few Americanmusicians living there, and I
attended my first jam sessionsthere.
Geoff (03:43):
So yeah, and then you went to study in America, didn't
you?
Sebastiaan (03:46):
That's right, I was actually studying law in my
first year in Louvain.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, I graduated fromhigh school.
I studied law for one year.
Geoff (03:58):
Why didn't I know that I've known you for?
25 years
Sebastiaan (04:00):
I've got dark secrets.
Geoff (04:02):
I'm going to come out today and tell you I'm years,
I've got dark secrets.
Sebastiaan (04:06):
I'm still gonna come out today I tell you I'm gonna
get in there, I'm gonna find outstuff I didn't know.
Yeah, well, there's not much toknow about.
Uh.
But yeah, I did.
I did one year, uh, law studiesand then I won a scholarship to
go to Berkeley.
That summer I went to aworkshop in Perugia and I
thought, like, well, that's it,it was a good scholarship.
So, and uh, my, my mom and dadsaid, okay, you can go, but for
(04:26):
two years, and then after twoyears we'll we'll see if it's
worth it and uh.
So I made sure that I uh, thatI kept my grades up and uh, yeah
, I had a great time and and
Geoff (04:37):
So you were studying at Berkeley.
For what you did?
a degree there.
Sebastiaan (04:41):
I two degrees.
It was a five-year study.
I did a dual degree, againmaybe you don't know this in
music production and engineering, but don't ask me anything
about it because I forgot it all.
But I also studied music,business and management and then
(05:03):
on the side I was playing allthe time and I think my class
was the first class to graduatewith music, business and
management
Because I know you worked for.
Ted Kurland yeah, the greatAmerican, yeah agent yeah,
That's a part of the internship.
So what you had to do at leastthree months or six months of
(05:24):
internship, and my firstinternship was for Ted Kurland,
but in the same building wasalso the manager of Pat Metheny,
David Cholomson, and they sortof worked closely together.
So I did an extra six monthsworking for Pat Metheny.
Actually, I worked for PatMetheny.
Geoff (05:39):
Did you.
Sebastiaan (05:40):
Yeah, never met him but yeah.
So, yeah, I did an internshipthere and a good time and then,
yeah, that was.
Ted Kurland is a big, big fish
Geoff (05:50):
right, but of course you're playing drums all the way
through this, right?
Yeah?
Sebastiaan (05:54):
yeah, yeah, I was playing all the time and
basically people thought that Iwas a performance major.
I was really playing so much andlots of concerts and projects
and school bands Herb Pomeroy'sbig band, which was sort of seen
as the the band to be in, yeah, and got to play a lot with Hal
Crook and with George Garzoneand, yeah, with some other great
(06:16):
teachers there Rick Peckham,and yeah, I had an amazing time.
And then after those five yearsI was ready to go to New York
and uh, what happened then waslike I wanted to do my master's,
which was a two-year study, andI got accepted by New York
University but also by ManhattanSchool of Music, which had John
(06:39):
Riley, who's a famous drumteacher.
But also I did audition for theThelonious Monk Institute,
which is now the Herbie HancockInstitute is the same
organization, and they had a twoyear program, which was still
in Boston, at New EnglandConservatory, and I tried that
out, auditioned, went throughthe first round, went through
(07:00):
the second round, got through afinal, and then suddenly I got a
phone call saying like, yeah,you're in.
Do you want to do a two-yearprogram at New England
Conservatory under the umbrellaof the Thelonious Monk Institute
and I was like, yeah, that'sincredible.
Because everything was paid forand we got to play with a
famous jazz musician every monthfor at least a week.
(07:20):
So it was an incredible,incredible experience.
Geoff (07:23):
Amazing.
So that's seven years of study,right,
Sebastiaan (07:26):
Seven years of study , and then I also did a half
year in between because Istarted in January 92.
So I had to do like onesemester, sort of like work
study, and I did.
actually I followed art historyin Harvard and then I could
like basically graduate with thepeople from my class at the
same time and and then for therest of that year I went to New
(07:50):
York.
So I went, I was living inBrooklyn, was subletting an
apartment from a good friend ofmine, Matt Penman, great bass
player, and yeah, I got to playwith some really great people
there.
And then suddenly out of theblue Guy Barker calls and he
basically had, and that's when Imet you actually.
Geoff (08:09):
Which was around 2000,.
Wasn't it?
Sebastiaan (08:10):
It was 99.
I was still living in New Yorkwhen I first met you, and that
was around the time of TheTalent of Mr Ripley.
That's what we did together,yeah, so, and then in January I
made the decision like, well, myvisa was running out, what do I
do?
Do I stay in the States or am Icoming back to Europe?
European passports were stillvery much popular.
You know, I had a Dutchpassport, but I could live and
(08:32):
work in England, no problem.
And so I came to London and I'vejust been settled ever since
here.
Geoff (08:40):
And then, of course, we started working with Jamie
Cullum together, didn't we?
Yeah, it was 2001.
Sebastiaan (08:44):
You said something like that yeah, yeah, yeah, so
it was through you, actually,that I, yeah, so we put together
a trio and right, we weretogether for what's that?
Eight years?
Eight years, I think.
Yeah, although the last year orso we didn't really play a lot
because there was sort of like asabbatical going on, yeah, but
uh, no, amazing, amazing timeman been around the world.
So thank you very much for that.
(09:06):
It was a really good time,really good time and learned a
lot of being on the road.
It was amazing.
We had such a good time, didn'twe Absolutely, were you always
into jazz.
I was always into jazz.
Yeah, it's very freaky, I don'tknow why.
As a kid I loved it.
I was listening to other stuffas well.
I grew up also with Top of thePops and ABBA and the disco and
(09:29):
all that kind of stuff and therappers.
But yeah, for some reason jazzalways did it for me.
We had a couple of Stan Getzrecords at home.
We had some Jimmy Smith records, Gerry Mulligan, Dave Brubeck,
and I was always playing alongwith those records.
Geoff (09:46):
So who are your drum influences then?
Sebastiaan (09:47):
Well, I would say, definitely Philly Joe Jones is
my biggest drum influence,because a little bit later my
dad bought me some Miles Davisrecords.
My auntie had a few Miles Davisrecordings.
I loved the first quintet withColtrane and Red Garland, Paul
James and Philly Joe Jones and Iwas like, yeah, that's it.
That's the way I think a jazzdrummer should sound like.
Geoff (10:05):
Right, the sound, the swing.
So what is it about Philly JoeJones?
Because I, to be honest, as abass player, I can't distinguish
between Philly Joe Jones, BillyHiggins, you know all the great
swinging drummers.
A lot of them sound quitesimilar through that sort of 50s
period, don't they?
So what is it that sets himapart?
Sebastiaan (10:26):
I think first of all it's the swing.
His triplet feel is really, Ithink, right in the pocket.
Some drummers have a skip beatthat is slightly more straight
going towards a straight eightThings like.
Billy Higgins has a bit more ofa straight eight-ish kind of
feel, Max Rojas has it a littlebit, Tony Williams and Roy
Haynes have the opposite.
(10:46):
They've got more of a 16th kindof vibe to it.
And Philly Joe for me is rightin the middle.
Blakey is also like verytriplety.
So is Elvin, but Elvin has thatreally laid back kind of yeah
vibe.
And Philly Joe for me is reallylike he's, he's there and he's,
he's especially him and MilesDavis.
If you listen to, like whenMiles is playing he's playing
off the drummer and Philly Joeis just filling in the gaps and
(11:09):
giving him some great ideas andthere's really like a good
question answer.
His ears are always open, he'salways interacting without
actually sacrificing the grooveright um, which you know, if you
have drums who have a similarstyle, like Jimmy Cobb or Art
Taylor, they have that as well,but they are a little bit less
interactive.
They're a little bit more of aside man.
(11:31):
Philly Joe is really likepushing to be almost like a
front man and okay, he's gotsome really hip hip stuff
Geoff (11:36):
But you don't play like that, though, do, do you?
Sebastiaan (11:38):
I don't know, you tell me I think you play as a
supportive role when you play.
Yeah, but that's the lesson Ilearned from people like Billy
Higgins and Jimmy Cobb and ArtTaylor.
I still think that a drumshould be, first and foremost,
an accompanying instrument.
Geoff (11:53):
I still can't tell the difference though.
Sebastiaan (11:54):
No, no, no, that's fine, but I'm a drummer so I
listen to those kind of things.
Geoff (12:02):
You have that with bass players.
Probably you listen to a lotmore jazz than I do.
Sebastiaan (12:04):
I would say yeah, probably.
Geoff (12:06):
You're a proper jazz nerd , aren't?
You, I'm a jazz nerd, yeah, Imean you know dates, you know
alternate takes, you know wholealbums.
Sebastiaan (12:14):
It's quite sad isn't it.
It is sad because it's info youcannot use at all.
Geoff (12:21):
It's not, it's a it's a thorough love of the music, is
what it is.
Yeah, you know, yeah I love it.
Sebastiaan (12:27):
I love it.
It's really true.
It's like it's not that I don'tlisten to other stuff of music,
but I find it harder and harderto like listen to stuff that
I'm not really into.
And and I'm trying to, but Idon't have an open mind maybe as
you have.
No, no, but that's fine andit's all good.
You know, you know much moreabout pop and R&B and funk and
(12:49):
all that kind of stuff which isgreat.
I'm envious of that.
But I guess somewhere in me islike man, I want a good swinging
groove.
It's like, yeah, that's it.
Geoff (12:58):
When you listen to a box set, for example, you'll start
from track one and you'll go allthe way through to the end.
Yeah, yeah, I do that, you do.
Sebastiaan (13:06):
Well, the thing is this, though that happened in
your car, I don't know if youremember.
There's a famous CannonballAdderley album that we both have
something else, and my favoritetrack is the last track on the
cd, which is a bonus track whichwas not in the original album,
and I played that for you and Inever heard it.
You never heard it.
You said, man, this is great.
(13:27):
What is that?
It's like?
this is on your iPod.
So I'm ashamed.
No, that's okay.
But yeah, I I have the patience, I guess, to listen from, and
even if it's not really a goodalbum, I listen to the beginning
.
If it's an artist that I likeand respect, I will give it at
least two, three, four listensand then I will sort of like
read it from the beginning tothe end, because there are some
(13:48):
gems later on that you mightmiss.
Geoff (13:52):
Do you apply that kind of attitude to your teaching, for
example, because I know youteach a lot, yeah.
So teaching, for example,because I know you teach a lot,
yeah, so how, how do you goabout your teaching?
What's you do?
You have a method.
Sebastiaan (14:05):
I really like teaching from the John Riley
books.
John has now four books outthat are really good, very
musical.
They they talk about being aprofessional drummer.
A little bit it's aboutaccompanying, it's about soloing
, it's about, you know, goodexercises on that, about in
order of whatever combination ofcoordinations and all that kind
of stuff.
So I really like to use that aslike sort of the route I want to
(14:28):
go with, because it reallycompartmentalizes everything
that a student should know,right, okay, but on the other
hand, you cannot learn musicfrom a book.
So I also want them to listento recordings and maybe try to
imitate a drummer or eventranscribe stuff and maybe focus
in on like small phrases of asolo.
(14:50):
How do they stick this?
There's different stickingspossible on this and which one
is the best for you, you know,and it's very interesting
because everybody's differentand so I think books are really
useful and I use those writingbooks as sort of like the route
to take, but if it needs to bediverted, that's fine, and also
I don't want to fall into thetrap of like you learn music
(15:12):
from a book because you don't.
You need to play it, you needto listen to it.
It's all on the records,
Geoff (15:17):
yeah, and I to play it.
You need to listen to it.
It's all on the records.
Yeah, and I know you teach.
You teach at Purcell, don't you?
Sebastiaan (15:23):
that's right, yeah, which is a very high level.
Yeah, so school for youngmusicians.
For people who don't know it,it's in north west London, um,
there's kids coming from allover the world.
It's a boarding school most ofit.
There's some day students aswell, and, um, they come from
all over the world and the agesare between 8 and 20.
Geoff (15:43):
Do you ever get the eight-year-olds playing with the
20-year-olds?
Sebastiaan (15:46):
It's not like no, probably not so much, because
the age difference is too bigand the level is still too big.
But it happens sometimes that Ihave, uh, 14, 15 years year
olds who can play with the 18,19 year olds.
No problem, you know, and theycan do gigs, man.
I mean, they're frightening,they're frighteningly good man.
It's great stuff for me, man,they keep me on my toes.
Geoff (16:07):
Playing with older musicians is the education that
young people need, isn't it?
Young musicians play.
Sebastiaan (16:13):
I guess we both learned from the older guys
because they've been there andit's like, in the beginning I
can understand it, like I waslike that oh, I'm young and
everything goes my way, it goeswell, and you know, I know it
all better and all that kind ofstuff, yeah.
And then suddenly you, you comemore and more road wary and and
you're like, oh right, okay,how do I, how did those guys do
(16:34):
that, you know?
and then I learned a lot fromthem
Geoff (16:37):
So hopefully young people are learning from us now.
I hope so.
Funny because my my son, Lewis,who plays bass, he played good.
He came down here last week andsat in with him.
Did you have a good time?
Yeah?
he did yeah yeah, yeah, okay Ithink he was surprised, you know
, when he played with you and Isaid, I said, well, you gotta
play with Seb, you know, becauseI've played with him such a lot
and I know what it feels like.
And he said afterwards oh, he'svery forward or he's very, very
(17:02):
strong and very, you know,especially during the solos.
You know Right, because I thinka lot of students they get to a
bass solo and the drummer willdrop out and there's no support.
You know, but what you dobehind a bass solo is well, you
play the same intensity butquieter.
Sebastiaan (17:17):
Well, that's actually what I learned from you
really.
I mean, solo is where you playthe same intensity but quieter.
Well, that's, that's actuallywhat I learned from you really.
I mean, we had this discussion,quite.
We talked a lot about learnsomething from me.
What happens a lot in bandsstill of good plays as well when
the bass solo comes, it sort ofdrops the energy drops and you
were saying to me like no, don'tplay, play more.
Like you're playing behind thepiano or behind the horn play.
I like that yeah you like that,but other bass players might not
(17:39):
yeah so I'm always trying tofigure out like depends on how
they play and I guess also theirpersonality and all that.
Everybody has their own way oflike, how they like to be
accompanied, and I know you likea stronger drummer behind you,
like with more interaction, butmaybe somebody else might not.
You know, and I sort of make amental note of people who you're
(18:01):
playing with, who you'replaying with, so I'm with you.
I know, right, Geoff likesduring the bass solo that I'm a
little bit more interactive.
So I'll do that or try to dothat, and then maybe with
somebody else they might say, um, well, a little bit less, maybe
Geoff (18:19):
So let's talk about Quartet, shall we
Sebastiaan (18:21):
Okay?
At the apps.
That's what we're here for.
Geoff (18:23):
So we have now four volumes.
Amazing, of which you're on allof them.
Sebastiaan (18:29):
I don't know how you keep up with me, man.
Yeah Well, I'm very, veryhonoured to be on all of them.
Geoff (18:33):
What was the experience like of playing on these apps?
Sebastiaan (18:36):
It's quite an experience because we recorded a
lot of tunes in just a few daysit was.
It was a really good experience.
But you know what I like aboutit is you have to work with
people that a you can trust, byou respect, but also c.
that can do the work, that cando the work and you're quite a
fast worker.
(18:57):
I like that.
No, no, I like that, but it wasnever more than two or three
takes, not that that's no onetake.
Geoff (19:03):
That was one take most of the time, mostly, yeah.
Sebastiaan (19:05):
But we need to have people that are reliable, that
come in time, that can play themusic without any problem, and
they know that the pressure ison for every take to be good,
you know, and be disciplinedabout it, and not everybody is
like that.
Yeah, I was knackered though,man it was tiring.
Geoff (19:24):
It was really tiring Players that can play with a
click as well.
Yeah, you haven't mentionedthat.
Yeah, yeah, and what I loveabout playing with you as well
is you can play on a click andthe click is not an issue.
It's never an issue, is it?
We did all those 500 tunesright.
Sebastiaan (19:41):
Well, that's good.
That's good, I mean, withoutsounding too arrogant or
whatever, but I think I canfocus really well if there's, if
there's something to need to bedone and I'm, for instance,
that day I'm like right, I knowwe've got only one take for for
every, or maybe two for a few,but and you gave me also
instructions not to play overthe bar line because of you know
the way the program works, soyou need to keep that in mind.
(20:02):
There's a job to be done hereand we're gonna.
We're gonna do it and I'm Ithink I'm good enough to do it
Geoff (20:09):
Disciplined.
Yeah, it's all about that.
Yeah, and organization, youknow all that stuff.
Sebastiaan (20:13):
Well, you're very organized anyhow, so that makes
it a lot easier.
Yeah, so.
So you're gonna play the tuneon the drums I wanna like sort
of play two choruses with just arhythm section and uh, play
first maybe the melody of Oleo,which is based on I Got Rhythm
(20:34):
okay, and uh, then in the secondchorus, play a solo.
Geoff (20:39):
Okay, based upon that talk to us briefly about what
that means.
Sebastiaan (20:43):
Well, how you do that on a non-pitched instrument
yeah, well, you say it'snon-pitched, but actually you
can actually have, you know,with a bit of manipulation again
, oh yeah, yeah, you know, okay,but okay, no, but somebody like
Max Roach, for instance, reallymade me realize you can play
melodies on it as well.
It's the way you orchestrate it, but it's also the rhythms.
(21:04):
Oleo has a very distinctiverhythm in the melody that
probably people will recognize,even if I play it on one pitch.
Geoff (21:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Can you just give an example onthe drums?
Sebastiaan (21:15):
Yeah, one, two one, two, three, four.
Geoff (21:27):
Okay, so great.
So what you're doing there?
You're keeping the hi-hat going, though aren't you.
Announcement (21:31):
Yeah, you're on two and four.
Geoff (21:33):
Two and four yeah, so that's kind of nailing the swing
, yeah, and in your hands you'replaying the.
Sebastiaan (21:37):
The melody.
Geoff (21:38):
Playing the melody.
Yeah, yeah, would you play thaton other drums as well, would
you?
Because you just played it onthe snare, didn't you?
Sebastiaan (21:44):
yeah, I played it only on the snare, but you can
orchestrate it.
Uh, if I do it with another tom, it's like um
Let's put the track on, okay,and see what happens.
All right, it's an eight barintro.
Right, it's an eight barintroduction.
(22:04):
Okay, here it comes.
Thank you, wow, that's great.
(23:34):
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Yeah, okay, can I ask you aboutsoloing?
Sure so where do you start at adrum solo what's?
How do you start learning howto solo this?
is a good one listening to, to the records.
I always like drummers thatbuild up a solo if I have the
time, because you know I like totake my drums as a little bit
(23:55):
of time.
But that gives me the chance todevelop stuff with one or two
motifs, melody, I'm thinkingmelody, maybe not so much rhythm
, yet okay, and actually a verygood source for me is nursery
rhymes or very simple, almostlike stupid ideas you know that
are that are just quarter notesstart with a very simple idea.
(24:18):
During the development of thatidea, second idea might come up
and it might start to mix thosetwo and then you get more and
more into like, into a jungle Iguess, of like little ideas that
are like sort of like threadedtogether by that one or two
simple idea that you had in thebeginning
So did you do a lot oftranscribing
(24:39):
So I listened to a lot, a lot of records I know you
do, yeah and and a lot of drumsolos as well.
The physical fact oftranscribing I've did do quite a
few transcriptions, yes
Geoff (24:53):
Was there anything particular that you you can
recall that you one particulardrum lick or drum thing that
inspired you that you couldactually play for us?
Sebastiaan (25:03):
Yeah, yeah it was a Philly Joe Jones solo.
I don't know if I've everwritten this down, but it's
basically.
The lick is like this I do iton brushes One, two, a one, a
(25:28):
typical Philly Joe Jones solo.
It has triplets.
Geoff (25:31):
Lots of triplets, yeah.
Sebastiaan (25:38):
With those accents.
Okay, I've learned that myself.
Okay, it's only snare and it'saccents.
I've learned that myself.
Okay, it's only snare and it'saccents.
When I listened to Philly Joe,he was so quick that I thought,
like you know, in drums we talkabout your strong hand and your
weak hand, and I'm right-handed.
So my right hand is my stronghand, left hand is my weak hand.
Left hand is my weak hand.
For some reason, I preferredplaying that with two rights and
(26:03):
one left, so it's right, right,left, right right, left, right,
right, left, right, yeah, soone two, three, four Right right
left right right left, right,right, left, right.
Yeah, okay, years later Ifigured out he's doing singles.
He's doing right, left, right,left, right, left.
Geoff (26:23):
So he goes, but that would mean you have to accent
each chant.
Sebastiaan (26:28):
There's a different combination in accents, so he
plays with the accents.
I'll just say the accents One,two, three, four, left right,
left right, left right, leftright, left right, left right,
left right, left right, leftright.
But if I did it my way withright left, you get left right.
(26:49):
So that's a differentcombination, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, it sounds thesame, it's not.
Well, I hope it sounds the same.
The funny thing is this, though,Geoff when I was in the
Thelonious Monk institute at NewEngland Conservatory,
Conservatoire, one of myteachers was Charlie Persip.
(27:12):
It was a great, great jazzdrummer, played with Dizzy
Gillespie and with Red Garland,Cannonball Adderley and all
those people, and he was a goodfriend of Philly Joe.
They made actually a couple ofalbums together.
And I said to him, when we'retalking about Philly Joe and how
he plays that lick, and I said,well, I know he's playing the
singles, but I'm doing the right, right, left, right, right,
(27:34):
right, so I'm smuggling a littlebit.
He's like, well, play them forme.
So first I played him the singlethe way that Philly Joe does,
and then my version.
He's like, yeah, he says bothsound fine, but he says the
better one is actually the waythat you prefer to play it the
right, right, left, right left.
And that's you.
And he says that's the beautyof jazz.
He says that is you, that isyour individuality.
(27:56):
So don't see it as a mistake,see it as another approach
Geoff (28:01):
I guess everyone, everyone strives for their own
thing, don't they?
and that's something that takesa long time, doesn't?
it.
Sebastiaan (28:05):
Yeah, and I think also, what a lot of people then.
They, I think they're sort ofconfused.
They think, like jazz alwayshas to be creative and different
and all that.
Yes, okay, you don't want to bepredictable or whatever, but
there's also a phase where youhave to imitate the masters,
they're masters, not for nothingyou know there's a reason for
that.
Then you try to interpret ityour way and I think that's
(28:28):
where a lot of people go wrong.
They just think like no, Icannot play that lick at all,
and you know I have to playdifferent stuff, and they miss
the boat, I think.
And I think it's just thatself-discovery of like okay, I'm
doing it my way, it sounds good, I think, but it's actually the
wrong way if I want to be likePhilly Joe or something like
that.
Geoff (28:55):
So any recollections about our years on the road
together.
Sebastiaan (28:59):
Oh yes, oh yes, very , very good recollections.
Quite a lot actually.
But I tell you what musicallyamazing was how quickly that we
I don't know how you experiencedit, but there was sort of a
telepathic understanding.
We didn't have set lists, right, we just after a while we felt
(29:20):
what the next tune was going tobe and we all thought the same
way yeah, and it became so good.
I mean, that was the real.
It was like you couldn't leanback.
Telepathy is yeah.
Geoff (29:29):
Telep the real.
Sebastiaan (29:29):
It was like you could have been telepathy is yet
telepathy, yeah, but you couldalso lean back because you know
that, okay, I think he's gonnado this next tune and yeah,
there it came, you know, andthen, yeah, and then immediately
we played it and it was soconsistent, it was very
consistent, yeah, and and it wasamazing and it also seemed like
at that time like whatever wedid, we could put our own spin
(29:50):
to it and it sort of foundresonance with a big audience.
Geoff (29:54):
I think it was great.
Do you remember we went toAuckland oh yeah.
Yeah, so we stayed at thathotel, didn't we in the harbour?
Yeah, and never forget, it waslike the windows of the hotel
were right up against the dock.
Sebastiaan (30:07):
Well, the hotel was like a boat, was like sort of a
ship that was moored, it wentinto the water.
It was modelled after a cruiseship.
Geoff (30:15):
Yeah, and it was a beautiful view, you know, over
the whole harbour.
I remember going to bed, youknow, pulling the curtains.
Next morning I pulled thecurtains and overnight a bloody
great big ship had pulled in andthe window was five yards from
my window.
It was like someone else waslooking in my window, but I
think you.
Sebastiaan (30:34):
You didn't realize, but there was a note on the bed
watch out, with, like, openingyour curtains this morning
because there will be a cruiseship.
I will be more next to thehotel, yeah, oh it was funny.
Geoff (30:45):
Yeah, it was great, but also, it was, it was amazing
because we did all the festivals, didn't we?
we did.
We did Glastonbury, yeah, FujiRock yeah.
Sebastiaan (30:51):
We did the Playboy Jazz Festival in the Hollywood
Ball with the rotating stage.
Remember that.
Yeah, with Stanley Clarke yeahand all that.
Geoff (30:59):
Yeah, I got to meet Stanley Clarke.
That was.
That was another story, wasn'tit?
Sebastiaan (31:02):
yeah, that was a great story.
Um, oh man, yeah, it's allcoming flooding back.
Remember Newport.
I really thought Newport was areal good.
Geoff (31:11):
We went sailing in Newport.
Harbour and I got stuck on thereeds.
Sebastiaan (31:13):
I was with you in the boat.
Geoff (31:16):
Oh, I could sail.
I've had to sail since I was 15.
Sebastiaan (31:21):
Yes, he hadn't sailed since he was 50.
Oh, that was funny.
It was fun.
Geoff (31:26):
It was fun, good fun and good memories, but you haven't
been able to shake me off.
Since then We've playedtogether almost every week.
Sebastiaan (31:34):
We played a lot Well .
Thank you for that, but youkept on asking me for your
projects, and also with Trudy.
Geoff (31:41):
You're reliable and you can play with a click.
You know, because I make a lotof library, you know.
Yeah, that's true, that's whatyou know.
Sebastiaan (31:47):
Yeah, that's true, that's what you know.
Yeah, you give me a lot of work, so thank you for that.
That's all right, you can payme back one day.
Geoff (31:51):
Well, you pay me back by giving me a kick down at the
Troubadour.
yeah, Right, so I'm going tofinish off.
I've got a few questions, ifthat's all right, yeah, first
question is what's yourfavourite album?
Sebastiaan (32:10):
Well, I have to give the cliche answer I think Kind
of Blue is.
It's funny.
It's not a record that I listena lot to anymore, but I know it
so well that it's like it's inmy mind.
Miles Davis for Kind of Blue.
I know it's not a surprise, butit really is a masterpiece,
isn't it?
Geoff (32:20):
Well, that's kind of answering.
The second question isfavourite musician a lie or dead
?
Who'd like to play with?
I mean Miles.
Sebastiaan (32:26):
Absolutely Miles for me is Bach, Beethoven, Mozart
in one, you know.
Yeah, it's not that not to saythat I like everything that he
did, but most of it what he did.
Yes, it was really good and wasamazing.
It was not just good, it wasamazing, it was like in the
forefront
Geoff (32:42):
And constantly changing.
As well, wasn't he?
Sebastiaan (32:44):
and yeah, yeah and while, and while retaining his
own identity, which is, yeah,yeah, yeah, incredible and you
may have already answered thisquestion as well earlier on but
and while retaining his ownidentity, which is incredible.
Geoff (32:51):
And you may have already answered this question as well
earlier on, but the highlight ofyour career, best gig moment?
Sebastiaan (32:56):
Okay , no, I haven't probably.
Oh, I'm sorry, Geoff, it's notwith me then.
No, there were a lot of greatmoments.
Now can I do two?
Yeah, the first one was in thesummer of 98.
Now I'm gonna name drop stuff.
I had done the tour alreadywith Herbie, Herbie Hancock
through the 'clang', there we go, that's all right, which was
(33:18):
amazing.
Amazing, that was through theMonk Institute.
That was through the MonkInstitute, yeah, and that was in
South America.
But that same summer I did atour and it was actually my
first UK tour before I livedhere.
It was two weeks with GeneHarris, pianist Gene Harris, and
Martin Drew was actually thedrummer, but he got a call from
(33:38):
Oscar Peterson and the touroverlapped.
So I was asked to do the lastweek or the last two weeks.
It was with Jim Mullen and withEddie Klein, but playing with
Gene Harris, that was wasamazing.
We had never rehearsed together,we'd never met each other, and
the first two gigs were at thePizza Express and my mom and dad
(34:00):
were there as well, which wasreally good fun.
And, um, I said to them uh,when can I meet Gene Harris?
Oh, he's having lunch at thePizza Express.
Come at one o'clock at thePizza Express, okay.
So I go towards him and Iintroduce myself.
It's like, okay, I'm going tobe playing the rest of the tour
with you.
Okay, great, great.
And I said what time is therehearsal?
And he says, no, man, therewon't be any rehearsal.
(34:22):
Are you thirsty?
Yeah, just no, we're stillafter nine o'clock.
Remember it was Peter Wallace'sday.
So, uh, he said, show up oneminute before nine and we'll,
we'll hit it off, you know.
And actually that's sort of Ithought like man, I finally got
a chance to play with someonethat there's no rehearsal, I
don't know what he's gonna play,I had no idea and I was like
just geez, geez.
So I was a bit worried about itthe whole day.
(34:44):
And then I think Jim Mullen sawme about like, say like half
hour before the gig, and he'slike don't worry about a thing,
man, it will be all right.
And literally we went on stageGeoff , from the first moment it
was like we've played 25 yearstogether and I thought that's
how I want to be as a musician.
(35:05):
And that same level of greatexperience.
I had it with Clark Terry aswell.
That was like I played drumsand it was.
Somebody else was like I waslike a marionette, I was like my
hands were doing just, itdidn't matter.
It was the feeling it doesn'tmatter what I do, he'll make it
sound great.
Yeah, and that is an incrediblefreedom and that's what I want
(35:26):
to achieve.
You know, it's just thategoless.
Yeah, do whatever you want todo.
Tony Williams says it in aninterview about Miles as well Do
whatever you want to do, itwill sound great, it will sound
fine, and that is a very specialfeeling.
Not that many musicians havethat, but that was very, very
(35:46):
special, and both of those guysare not with us anymore, so
that's something that I really,really cherish, and other people
as well.
Like I remember playing withJackie McLean for a week.
The sound of the saxophone wasjust unbelievable.
I literally got goosebumps justabout the sound, the sheer size
of the sound.
Geoff (36:06):
Well, speaking of that, do you remember when Toots
Thielemans?
sat in with the Jamie CullenBand band.
Where was that?
In Brussels.
It was in Brussels yeah, he cameand played two tunes with us.
Sebastiaan (36:15):
I I was crying on stage, you remember yeah, it's
the emotion that that came outfrom that guy when he played the
harmonica unbelievableunbelievable and it's like so
hard to explain that to to toother musicians, but you have to
experience that, and what Ifound amazing about him is he
could play notes that were notpart of the chord, but just make
it work.
And you're like how on earth doyou do that?
(36:38):
I've got that also with PhilipCatherine, who's a really good
guitarist and he's got greattiming, and I'm saying to him
how do you do that?
Ooh, I just do, I just do, andI think that's just the way that
people hear it that way, butit's magic, it's magic, it's
magical.
Geoff (36:53):
Well, that was a very long answer to a very short
question.
That's okay, that's a goodanswer.
What was the last concert youwent to?
Sebastiaan (37:02):
That is quite a while ago.
I think the last concert I wentto is also one of my idols,
Charles Lloyd in the Barbican.
Oh yeah, it's been a whilethat's been.
Geoff (37:12):
That was more than a year ago, that's because you're
working all the time, you don'thave time to go out yeah, yeah,
and if I do have time to go out,I'm knackered.
Sebastiaan (37:20):
Yeah.
So Charles Lloyd amazing, andthat's.
He's also one of those peoplethat has magic.
And he had the people that Isaw that I was speechless.
I've seen them several timesCharles Lloyd, Ahmad Jamal and
Pat Martino.
When I saw those guys live, Ijust had two hours just to
(37:40):
myself.
I just didn't want to, it wasjust so amazing.
Geoff (37:43):
What would you say was your musical weakness?
Sebastiaan (37:46):
My musical weakness is actually funny.
You know, there's a bit ofdiscipline in practicing
practicing that's.
I was never really a practiceanimal.
That started more or less whenI was at Berkeley um before you
mean, you don't practice enoughI don't know, if I practiced
more I would have.
I would have been a lot better.
So there's technicaltechnicalities and maybe also
musical theory.
(38:06):
I know my musical theory andall that, but I'm not really
super strong at that, you know.
Geoff (38:12):
But you're not expected to.
I mean, you're a you know.
Sebastiaan (38:14):
Yeah, but that's not an excuse is it?
Geoff (38:15):
You're a drummer.
Sebastiaan (38:19):
Yeah, but that's not an excuse anymore, is it?
Yeah, well, I think it'simportant that you know the tune
as well.
You know?
Geoff (38:25):
Absolutely, you know how Just Friends goes and you can
phrase accordingly, can't youabsolutely, and, and you know
you're not just playing 32 bars,you're, you're creating
something around the tune.
Sebastiaan (38:36):
Yeah, and very important you don't want to play
spangling, spangling, spanglingthe whole time, you know.
So the more you know, thebetter you become.
Do you ever get nervous onstage?
Not anymore.
I used to and I, to be honest,that's always a good sign if
you're a little bit nervous,because that gives you a bit of
an edge.
If you're not nervous, I thinkthen you're too comfortable with
(38:56):
the music and that's that's adanger, because I think there
should be a bit of like raw edgeto the music as well.
The certain gigs you get morenervous, like with Jamie, I
never got nervous but RayGelato's gigs.
Sometimes I got a bit nervousbecause that's very drum
dependent and it's very intensethe whole time and it's like
Matt Bianco is a bit like thatas well, that's.
Geoff (39:18):
Another band that we play together is Matt Bianco.
We've been doing that for 6 or7 years now haven't we and
that's a very drum intensive gigisn't it absolutely so?
Sebastiaan (39:27):
I guess the more drum-intensive gigs and it's not
that it's it's kicking thestamina up, isn't it Exactly?
Geoff (39:32):
yeah, I think that's probably what it is.
Yeah, what's your favouritesandwich?
Sebastiaan (39:37):
Ooh, steak sandwich.
Geoff (39:39):
Okay, yeah, might go and have one in a minute, all right.
What about a favourite movie
Sebastiaan (39:51):
Man?
Okay, yeah, yeah, 12 Angry Men.
Henry Fonda, Henry Fonda, but Ilike the fact because it's
actually a play, isn't it?
And then the fact that it takesplace in one room.
It's actually one scene, reallyand I find it amazing and so
intriguing.
How long is that movie?
An hour and a half, you just.
You're so gripped by it and howhe, one by one, persuades all
the judges.
Geoff (40:05):
You know, it's amazing what about a favorite venue?
Sebastiaan (40:08):
Well, the Troubadour of course, yeah Troubadour, of
course it is cozy down here itis very cozy and and the staff
is amazing uh, I mean most.
Geoff (40:17):
Most people say the Albert Hall don't they.
Sebastiaan (40:19):
Well, actually, but that's a hard, that's a hard
place to play.
That's, the acoustics are anightmare there.
Yeah, I think, like what yousaid, places like this that have
good acoustics, it really makeshalf the gig already right,
yeah, and so you don't have toworry about it.
But another I like Café Bravoin Bologna.
It's a super small stage.
That's where we're going onThursday, yeah, but I'm not with
you on that one.
You're not coming.
I'm not coming, I'm in Japan,okay.
(40:54):
So that leads me to the nextokay city, Santiago in Chile.
That was amazing, that was areal all right.
Okay, uh country, I think,Chile is is very special.
But Italy, Japan, I think thoseare like very, very special
countries yeah
Geoff (41:01):
And the very last question uh, your favorite chord
Sebastiaan (41:04):
Favorite chord?
yeah minus seven flat five.
Okay, the half diminished chord.
I really like that.
Why is that?
Then I can play that on thepiano and it sounds really good.
I mean, I made a tune with alot of half diminished chords
and it's like yeah okay, I washappy with that, all right.
Geoff (41:21):
Well, I think that'll wrap it up.
I think, very good.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
That's being lots of greatinformation there, and um, and
I'm looking forward to playinglater on me too.
We're going to play some Brarsalis Marsalis tonight,
Sebastiaan (41:32):
uh absolutely, and some Sonny Rollins and um pay
tribute to those masters youknow great so thank you, by the
way, for all the opportunities.
That's really much appreciated
Geoff (41:41):
my pleasure
Sebastiaan (41:42):
.
Geoff (41:42):
Let's go and have a, have a meal now, shall we steak
sandwich?
all right, all right, bye
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