August 23, 2025 • 36 mins
Geoff travels to Honor Oak Park in South London to meet with an old friend – the British composer and pianist Simon Wallace.
Simon opens a portal into jazz's rich tapestry through personal stories that span from his childhood in South Wales to the vibrant scenes of New York City and London. This conversation reveals how a secondary school music teacher sparked what he beautifully describes as discovering “…a magic window into another world" – specifically the world of Black American culture centred in New York.
Simon takes us on a fascinating journey through his musical development, from studying classical music at Oxford University while secretly yearning for jazz, to landing his first professional gig at London's legendary Blitz Club in 1978 where Boy George worked in the cloakroom during the New Romantic era. His connections to jazz history come alive through stories of friendships with figures like Bob Dorough, who recorded with Miles Davis and performed with Charlie Parker.
The heart of the episode delivers a masterclass in jazz harmony as he unpacks the revolutionary theories of piano legend Barry Harris. With remarkable clarity, he explains how Harris's approach to diminished scales and sixth chords creates pathways between multiple keys, freeing musicians from predictable patterns. This isn't just technical talk – Simon demonstrates these concepts improvising the 1940s standard ‘Autumn Leaves’ alongside the Quartet jazz playalong app, showing how theory transforms into living, breathing music.
Beyond music theory, he shares captivating stories including writing a symphony for the King of Thailand's 60th birthday broadcast on all four Thai TV channels simultaneously. His reflections on musical growth, the value of being "slightly out of your depth," and jazz's competitive yet supportive culture offer wisdom for musicians at any stage.
Whether you're a jazz aficionado, a musician seeking fresh approaches to harmony, or simply someone who appreciates a good story well told, this episode offers rich rewards. Listen now and discover how jazz continues to open magical windows into other worlds.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here.
Today I'm in South London, I'min Honor Oak Park, just got off
a train and I'm going to see avery old friend of mine, Simon
Wallace, who's a fantastic pianoplayer, accompanist, arranger,
educator.
I'm looking forward to seeinghim and catching up and seeing
(00:24):
what he has to say about manythings.
Here we go.
Announcement (00:44):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.
Geoff (00:53):
Simon, how are you today?
You all right,
Simon (00:54):
Very well, seems like only last night.
Geoff (00:56):
Simon's a part of my songwriting club, which we love,
don't we?
We're having a good time.
Yeah, it was a good one lastnight, wasn't it
was.
It was great, really good.
It was been running a songwriting club uh, every side
of every week.
Um, you weren't there from thebeginning, were you?
Simon (01:10):
No, I came in about 18 months ago yeah,
Geoff (01:14):
Which is still a long time.
We're up to week 96 now.
We meet usually every threeweeks now and write a song on a
given title, and I host a Zoommeeting.
And it's brilliant, isn't it?
Simon (01:23):
But I I'd never written lyrics before
Geoff (01:25):
Because you're so used to working with Fran, weren't you?
You were co-writer with FranLandesman for years.
Simon (01:29):
Yeah, and before that I had a songwriting partner for
about 10 years.
Geoff (01:34):
You'd never written any lyrics before that.
Simon (01:36):
Well, I worked with a guy called Simon Brint who was the
sort of main music person forall the Comic Strip and the
Comedy Store back in the late70s.
That all started.
I moved to London in 1978.
And my first gig was at theclub called the Blitz Club in
Covent Garden, which was thewhole New Romantic thing, and we
were on three nights a week andBoy George was the hat check
(01:59):
girl at the time.
He just worked in the cloakrooms.
Geoff (02:02):
So were you in full romantic gear baggy, trousers
and makeup and was that you?
Simon (02:06):
No, I was in uh, Marks and Spencer's polyester trousers
and uh, because I wasn't reallyinterested in any of that.
I just wanted to play jazz.
I studied music university andI left in summer of 1978
So presumably you studiedclassical music.
though didn't, you know?
Yeah, there wouldn't have beenany jazz courses back then
would there
Thereweren't.
No, well, there was the LeedsCollege of Music, but it didn't
(02:30):
do a degree, it just did adiploma which my parents
wouldn't have approved of.
Geoff (02:36):
Where did you get the taste for jazz?
then A teacher at school.
When I was 11, in my first yearin secondary school there was
a music teacher who played jazzpiano and you know from what I
remember it was, he was amazing,but probably on some spectrum
or other he was a very strangeperson and I just latched on to.
I heard him play this music andI just like bugged him after
(03:00):
every music lesson.
I'd hang around at the end ofevery lesson and just make him
tell me things, wow, and then gohome.
My dad had just bought a taperecorder and so I used to tape
all the jazz programs that wereon BBC.
I used to go to lots ofclassical concerts.
My parents were into classicalmusic.
It didn't excite me inparticular.
(03:20):
And then Georgie Fame came outwith Bonnie and Clyde and so I
went to Smith's to buy itbecause I liked it so much.
I heard it on the radio andthen it just sort of didn't
really think much about musicuntil I was about 11, 12, I
suddenly stumbled across thisweird music.
Yeah, I mean what I've saidthis before.
It's a bit of a cliche, butit's true that I thought I
(03:42):
discovered a magic window intoanother world, which was you
kind of did really.
Yeah, I mean that's true that Ithought I'd discovered a magic
window into another world whichwas Well, you kind of did really
.
Yeah, I mean, everyone's gottheir own relationship with jazz
, don't they?
Simon (03:52):
Yeah, and it was a window into black American culture, in
particular in New York.
And I didn't.
I'm from South Wales and I wasobsessed with going to New York.
You know, all I wanted to dowas to be in New York and I
didn't make it to New York tillI was 22,.
Geoff (04:13):
I think anyone who's into jazz is obsessed with New York,
aren't they?
Yeah?
Simon (04:17):
Because it's the kind of Mecca.
Geoff (04:18):
It's got such a reputation.
Simon (04:20):
Well, I mean, I remember my first night in New York.
We went to a piano bar calledBradley's.
I remember sitting therethinking this fantasy I had
about it being a window into amagic world was actually true.
And I think it was.
Geoff (04:37):
You stepped through the doors of Bradley's and you were
in another world.
Yeah, yeah, what happened then?
You got into writing for TV andthat kind of stuff as well, did
you?
Simon (04:45):
I got into that through meeting Simon Brint.
I met Simon at the Blitz Cluband he was working at not the
Comedy Store, the Comic Strip.
When it first started he waslike the musical director and
the drummer was a guy calledRoland Riveron who went on and
had an alternative career.
But when I met Roland he was 17and he'd just left school and
(05:08):
all he wanted to do was playdrums, like Billy Higgins.
And it came about through abass player called Erica Howard.
I'd been at Oxford doing musicand Erica had gone to Oxford at
the same time as me 1975, andI'd met her at the Oxford Poly
Big Band.
Geoff (05:27):
Did you study it in Oxford?
Did you go there in university?
What were you studying inOxford
Music?
And I thought well, if I applyto Oxford doing music, I
obviously won't get in and I cango to Sheffield, which is my
second choice, but I can take ayear off.
It just seemed like a reallygood excuse to take a year off
and then play music.
And it all went wrong because Igot into Oxford doing music,
(05:47):
which was never the plan well,
Surely in Oxford you did, youlearn about um arranging and
orchestration and all thosethings?
Simon (05:54):
No, you didn't I learned how to write palestrina
counterpoint.
Ah, okay, and fugues.
I can write you a fugue, if youall right.
I've been waiting for someoneto ask me to do either of those
two things for the last 50 years, it's all over.
Yeah, it was 1975, so it'scoming up to 50 years, yeah,
yeah.
But when I got there I wasreally excited because I thought
(06:16):
, well, Oxford, there'll beloads of jazz.
And you know, because therewasn't a lot of jazz in Newport
and Cardiff, you, because therewasn't a lot of jazz in Newport
and Cardiff, you really had tokind of look for it.
So I did all the bookings forthe second term.
Oh right, and so the first termI was there.
We used to have one guest, onesort of concert a year, and then
it was once a week in the pub.
Yeah, and the house band when Iwent there was the Avon City's
(06:39):
jazz band and the first concertwas George Chisholm.
And then the second term, Itook over and the first concert
was the Stan Tracy Quartet withArt Theman and Bryan Spring and
Dave Green, and the house bandturned into the Pat Crumley's
Edge, if you recall.
So Pat at that time was asemi-power musician
Geoff (07:00):
Terrific yeah.
Great saxophone player.
Speaking of paying for guests, Iremember speaking to Bob .
To Bob, who was a greatamerican singer, songwriter.
Um, check him out if you don't.
You don't know him, but hepassed away a few years ago.
But we had some great timeswith Bob, didn't we?
yeah but I remember him tellingme that, uh, because he played
with Charlie Parker, you knowwell, did he tell you this story
(07:20):
?
Yeah, this is the one where,where he was in a house trio and
they all clubbed together andpaid money for Charlie Parker to
come and play when he was inNew York and they were all
nervous because they were youngand Charlie Parker was an
incredible hero.
So they saved up this money togive to Charlie Parker, and
Charlie Parker shows up at fivein the morning, you know, off
his head, and plays.
(07:40):
You know, plays one tune withthem or something.
I think that's what they used todo in those days, those
soloists.
They used to get paid just tocome and make little guests.
And of course, Bob was on theMiles album, wasn't he?
Yeah, he was on the album,Sorcerer.
Simon (07:53):
On Sorcerer.
That's right.
Yeah, what had happened is thatMiles Davis used to stay with a
friend of Bob's when he was inSan Francisco, I think, and she
played in Bob's album.
And then he went to see Bobplaying in a club and they got
(08:15):
Bob in to write Blue Xmasbecause Miles had to do a
Christmas song for the CBSChristmas record.
So that's how Bob got involved.
Geoff (08:23):
Had some really great memories of hanging out with Bob
, you know, especially in NewYork, you know, when I used to
go there a lot with Jamie Cullum.
Simon (08:31):
I think I was there when you met.
Geoff (08:33):
Yeah, I think he was.
Yeah, Joe's Pub or somethinglike that.
Yeah.
Simon (08:36):
I was doing Joe's Pub with Fran Landesman, Bob and
Jackie Cain and you were at theAlgonquin, weren't you?
Very possibly, yeah, with JamieCullum, and you all came down,
yeah yeah.
And I think that was the firstnight that Jamie and you had met
Bob.
Geoff (08:52):
That's very possible yeah , yeah, Bob always used to
cruise into town in his Beamer,didn't he in his BMW?
Yeah, I'll never forget that.
Yeah.
What a lovely man.
Simon (09:02):
Then I started going back to New York with Barb Jungr and
I'd always hook up with Bobsomewhere along the line.
Geoff (09:11):
Yeah, we did every time.
Every time we went there, wecalled him up and he'd always
come down.
You know what amazing energythat guy had.
Simon (09:17):
Yeah, extraordinary.
Geoff (09:18):
He came.
I remember we did a tour, a UKtour.
He came over and sung withTrudy as well and he stayed at
our house for, you know, for thetime he was here he'd be up
playing the piano.
Seven in the morning, you knowwe get back at two.
You know, after a late gig he'dbe up playing the piano.
Yeah, and I remember my Ruby umhim, I've singing the tune
(09:46):
Ruby, to Ruby.
you know, first thing in themorning, you know, and getting
he has his coffee amazing yeaheveryone should check out his
early, his early albums where hesings Yardbird Suite and
there's yeah, those bebop things.
You know it's brilliant.
Yeah, so are you aware of myapps?
Simon (10:04):
I I am aware of your apps .
Yeah, jo are jolly good theyare too.
Geoff (10:06):
Thank you very much.
I asked you to pick a tune toplay on because we were talking
about Barry Harris, so you choseAutumn Leaves, right?
I mean, Autumn Leaves is one ofthe first standards that
everyone should learn.
Can you talk a little bit aboutBarry Harris?
You studied with him a littlebit, didn't you?
Simon (10:28):
Yeah, way back, I think it was 1981, he used to run
these workshops which he did allhis life.
I mean, Barry Harris was aDetroit piano player who was
obsessed with teaching from avery young age and he started
off teaching people in Detroit,including a lot of the people
involved with Motown and theFunk Brothers.
I think he taught James Jameson, you know, and he was quite an
(10:49):
odd person.
He then landed probably thesecond biggest gig in the world,
the jazz gig in the world atthe time, which was the
Cannonball Adderley Quintet, andhe got the gig and he got
fitted for the band suit and,you know, did all that and he
lasted about 10 days and handedhis notice in.
He said nothing for me to do.
(11:11):
Extraordinary, really.
And that was a very, very highlypaid gig apart from everything
else.
But you know, musicallyextraordinary
Geoff (11:19):
, Very undefined hundefined, and I guess to do
something like that I don'tthink.
Simon (11:23):
I'd ever quit a band.
That's Barry.
Yeah, so he was, that's theSidewinder, isn't it?
Geoff (11:31):
Yeah, yeah, and he was.
That's the.
Simon (11:32):
Sidewinder, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, and he played thatbrilliantly.
Geoff (11:36):
I mean, that's one of the great sort of yeah, but that's
more about pop music, reallyisn't it?
It is yeah, that is yeah.
Simon (11:42):
He just wanted to explore this idea of teaching harmony
the way that he saw it, and hewasn't part of any university or
many faculty, he just did it onhis own, just plowed his own
furrough.
So when I arrived in New York,I went along to one of these
workshops and they were theselong, rambling, three-hour
(12:03):
workshops.
It used to cost $8 or somethingand he had this theory of
harmony which was to get youaway from thinking in
two-five-ones.
Right okay.
So it kind of went against thegrain of the way that jazz was
being taught, because this isright at the time when jazz
courses were first comingtogether.
(12:24):
This is back in 1981.
There were two teachers in NewYork that everybody deferred to
who?
Was the other one, Hal Galper.
Right, that everybody deferredto.
Who was the other one, HalGalper Right.
And the difference betweenBarry Harris and Hal Galper was
that Barry Harris was like $8for three hours and Hal Galper
was, I think, $50 for an hour inthose days, right.
Geoff (12:42):
How did their two methods differ?
I don't think Hal Galper had amethod.
I had one lesson with HalGalper because I didn't have the
money and it was extraordinary.
I mean, I think Hal Galper wasa really brilliant teacher.
There's a couple of videos ofhim on YouTube, just a handful,
but he's still alive and he'sstill, you know, ranting on
(13:03):
social media.
It's absolute gold.
I love Hal Galper's approach.
I love his piano playing aswell.
I mean, he's an extraordinarypianist.
Barry Harris had a.
I love his piano playing aswell.
He's an extraordinary pianistBarry Harris had.
I love Barry Harris' pianoplaying.
Barry Harris was a bebop pianoplayer through and through.
He played with Coleman Hawkinsand Parker incredible, yeah.
And he really understood Monk'smusic.
(13:25):
He studied, spent a lot of timewith Monk.
Did you startputting some of the ideas that
Barry Harris were teaching?
Were you starting putting someof the ideas for the Barry
Harris were teaching?
Were you starting using some ofthose?
Oh, straight away.
Simon (13:36):
Yeah, you were, yeah what it is is is a, a method of
thinking about harmony where youdon't know what you're doing,
right, uh, rather than doingsomething where you do know what
you're doing.
And that, that very first tripto New York, the most memorable
thing that that I saw was a gigin a loft and it was two pianos,
(13:57):
Barry Harris and Tommy Flanagan, and bass and drums and and it
was the most incredible to andfro I've never seen, seen At at
the time, I had never seenanything as spontaneous.
Wow, you know that that that,Tommy omm tommy Tommy would play
something and Barry would go,hmm, play something back, and
Tommy would go ooh, what aboutthat?
(14:17):
But it was back and forth thewhole time.
Amazing, absolutely brilliant.
And what Barry's theory wasthere for fore, was to enable
that to happen.
It was to enable you tosurprise yourself mid-phrase by
getting rid of licks and gettingrid of 2-5-1s and replacing it
with this theory that , I cangive you a pre-see precis of it,
(14:39):
if you wouldn't mind, just to.
So if you've got 12 notes in ascale, how do you divide up
those 12 notes?
Well, one way is to gowhole-tone scale, whole tone
scale.
So Barry's theory is you've gotthe father scale and the mother
scale.
There were elements of religioncomes in as well, you know, and
(15:00):
then you know.
So the father and the motherscale come together and if you
combine those two scales youthen get three diminished scales
.
So that's two notes from thefirst whole tone scale, two
notes from the second whole tonescale's two notes from the
first whole tone scale, twonotes from the second whole tone
scale, two notes from the firstone, two notes from the second
one.
So you've got three diminishedscales and two whole tone scales
(15:23):
.
So the diminished scale, thediminished chord, becomes the
key to everything.
So a diminished chord is flatfives, two flat fives.
What I'd been learning atOxford was, some cadence, just
regular cadences yeah.
(15:51):
So two-five-one cadences,interrupted cadences, and
because the cadence is a tritoneresolving.
So with that you've got the.
So that tritone resolving,you've got the same thing with a
diminished chord.
So what Barry Harris' theorywas that a four note diminished
(16:16):
chord would resolve to a fournote sixth chord, so that D
diminished will resolve to C6.
But equally, it will resolve inexactly the same way to E flat.
It will resolve in exactly thesame way to F sharp, and in the
same way to A.
Geoff (16:36):
So that's like a pathway to loads of different doors, I
suppose isn't it.
Simon (16:40):
And a sixth chord is the same thing as a minor seventh
chord, same notes.
So immediately you play onediminished chord and it will
resolve with perfect resolutionto eight other keys, those four
(17:03):
major keys and the minor keys.
So once you get your headaround that it increases the
number of possibilities.
Geoff (17:10):
Let's think of a practical approach.
Say we're going to play AutumnLeaves In in a minute, um the
start of autumn Autumn leavesLeaves goes a bar of c minor
seven and bar of f7 F7 andresolves to does it.
Simon (17:21):
It does does it is, is that?
Geoff (17:24):
what it is.
Okay again.
So a two, five, one in in bflat, yeah.
So how are you going to use?
How are you going to use theBarry Harris method?
That's my question.
Simon (17:38):
So is that a C minor 7 chord or is it an E flat 6 chord
?
Same notes?
It's both.
Yeah, it depends on how youvoice it.
So what chord?
Let's say it's an E flat 6chord.
What chord leads to that?
It'll be a D diminished chord.
Yeah, so D diminished chord, B,D.
(18:02):
Obviously, diminished chordsdon't invert.
They stay the same if you putthem in different versions.
So when you get that firstchord, put them in different
versions.
So when you get that firstchord you go straight to the
diminished chord and then thetheory is you can borrow notes
(18:34):
from that diminished chord.
So what I'm doing there isplaying a C minor chord but I'm
also putting in notes from theassociated diminished chord.
So I'm borrowing notes from thediminished chord and you get
patterns like yeah, and hiswhole approach was about taking
(18:54):
a chord and going, E flat 6, Cminor 7, E flat 6.
Suppose I borrow from, I'llborrow a B, I'm going to borrow
an A flat as well, and he'dalways be looking down his hands
going.
I haven't heard that before.
And of course, once you combinethat with the obvious thing
(19:17):
that if you put a diminishedchord over it becomes a flat 9.
Geoff (19:26):
So you lower any of the notes of the diminished chord
and it becomes a dominant 7thchord, exactly, or you raise any
note and it becomes a dominantseventh chord, exactly, yeah,
yeah, or you, or you raise anynote and it becomes a minor
sixth chord, yeah, yeah um,getting terribly nerdy here,
aren't we god, I hopeeveryone's still.
Simon (19:42):
I'm turned off by now, which which brings us around to
Thelonious Monk and you thinkabout Round Midnight.
You know lots and lots of halfdiminished chords in in Monk's
music and Monk never called it ahalf diminished chord in Monk's
music and Monk never called ita half diminished chord.
He always called , He he wouldwould have called that an E
minor, 6 chord over C, right, sohe he thinks of his half
(20:04):
diminished chords as being 6chords.
Yeah, so in the Barry Harris,yeah, that gives you that
resolution.
So the C half diminished chord,your go-to chord, is an A flat
diminished chord.
(20:24):
So it's all things like that.
Geoff (20:32):
Sorry, that's the sound of my head exploding,
Simon (20:33):
but it completely blew my mind, because what he explained
to me was everything that I'dlearnt at Oxford about Chopin,
but it made much more sense.
Of course, that was the basisof Barry's musical thinking was
Chopin Is that right?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think that was the basisof of great American songbook
(20:56):
harmony.
Geoff (20:57):
because if if that's why I love Chopin.
I wondered that.
Simon (21:01):
Well, if you think about beautiful melodies that you hear
in Chopin's music and theharmony, you know my take on on
on not just jazz, but take on onon not just jazz, but but on on
on black American music ingeneral is there was there was a
sort of a divide between peoplewho grew up in houses with
pianos and people who didn't,and the divide was was very much
(21:22):
middle class versus workingclass and, of course, the, the
music of.
Geoff (21:26):
I think that's still true today, isn't it?
Simon (21:28):
oh, yeah, yeah, I think it was particularly true the
beginning of the 20th century.
You know, the working classblack music was guitar-based,
was blues, and the middle classblack music was piano-based.
Piano in 1900 was the sameprice as a family saloon car is
today.
So having a piano, it was astatus symbol, but it was also.
(21:48):
it meant that you couldentertain.
It meant that you were thecentre of a community.
Geoff (21:53):
Because they didn't have Netflix in those days, did they?
Simon (21:56):
Apparently not no, and the internet was in its infancy,
the most common place to have agood piano would be the pastor.
So the church became a centreof obviously all sorts of things
, but music in particular, andso you find loads and loads of
(22:16):
great jazz musicians were sonsand daughters of clergymen, or
at least people who were churchpeople, and what was in the
piano bench was Chopin.
So if you learned the piano in1910, 1920, 1930, the first
thing you'd learn would beChopin and Clementi and you know
(22:38):
all that repetois, Same as now,really.
Geoff (22:43):
So let's get back to Autumn Leaves.
We digress a little bit.
Simon (22:48):
It's not really digressing, because Autumn
Leaves isn't an American song,it's a French song which is a
whole other thing, Pour les mots.
Geoff (22:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly so what we're going to do.
I'm going to mute the piano, soyou're just going to hear the
bass, drum.
Yeah, exactly so what we'regoing to do.
I'm going to mute the piano, soyou're just going to hear the
bass and the drums.
No, not your piano.
We're going to mute the piano.
Simon (23:07):
It's Graham Harvey isn't it Graham Harvey?
Yeah, you don't want to muteGraham.
We don't want him.
He's a proper piano player.
Geoff (23:12):
So you're going to hear the bass and the drums.
You're going to play this.
I think I'm going to have totry and get as many sixths and
diminished things as I can.
Simon (23:32):
Yeah, okay, we'll try and keep up.
All right, okay.
So here we go.
There's an eight barintroduction, which is G minor
six.
Ah, g minor six, aren't we Fsharp diminished.
Geoff (23:40):
Yeah, you play whichever one you like, right, right, ok.
And then we're playing AutumnLeaves, which is in the key of B
flat.
So your first chord will be Cminor 7, F7 to B flat.
But you don't care about thatstuff, do you?
Simon (23:55):
Oh, God, I'm already.
I'm looking at the keyboard andI don't understand any of it.
Geoff (24:00):
Just hit a few notes and then you'll surprise yourself
no-transcript.
(26:44):
I admit that.
That was great yeah.
Simon (26:48):
That sounds great.
I mean they're bass and drums.
Geoff (26:52):
It's real guys, you know.
It's us.
With all four apps now there's500 tunes to choose from, so the
catalogue is becoming biggerand bigger.
Simon (27:01):
So you actually played that in real time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (27:05):
So that's every standard we've played, usually two
choruses of every standard Forthree and four we recorded 200
tunes, so there's 100 on each.
That's what I say to my Lewis,who's studying at the moment.
I say learn the first 150 fromvolume one.
I mean mean that includes allthe obvious.
(27:26):
you know the, All The ThingsYou Are, the Stella By Star
light, the blues is, and allthese you know Autumn Leaves is
obviously on one.
Simon (27:32):
You know, I mean I, I I kind of believe that that thing
of learning standards is is asrelevant as it ever was.
I mean, it's an extraordinarybody of work.
Geoff (27:50):
Right.
So to finish off, I've got afew questions which I'm asking
everyone in the podcast.
I hope that's okay.
Starting with, do you have afavourite album?
Bill Evans, Alone,
Good choice.
What is it about Bill Evansthat you think is special?
T
Simon (28:04):
The way he plays the piano.
Oh yeah, no, I mean I love BillEvans, his whole conception of
music, yeah, and that, thatalbum, I bought it, I think, as
soon as it came out here when Iwas about 13.
Extraordinary, I mean, and it'sjust, yeah, I keep going back
to it amazing.
Geoff (28:23):
Is there a favourite musician, alive or dead?
You, I mean, and it's just yeah, I keep going back to it.
Amazing Is there a favouritemusician alive?
Simon (28:30):
or dead.
You'd love to play with EdThigpen oh interesting, you know
.
Or Billy Higgins, you know thatera of drumming, New York
drumming, yeah, straight ahead.
There's just something of thatlightness of touch that you get
with those guys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (28:44):
Has there been a highlight of your career or is
there a memorable geek momentthat you've had?
Simon (28:49):
There's been a few kind of quite surreal ones.
I wrote a symphony for the Kingof Thailand's 60th birthday.
Okay, it was broadcast on allfour Thai TV channels
simultaneously live, so I had40 minutes.
Were you there conducting ittoo?
No, no, I was there.
(29:11):
The actual concert was anightmare, so I managed to get
out of it by directing thecamera crews.
Geoff (29:20):
Telling them which instrument was the soloist.
Simon (29:22):
Yeah, so I had four separate Thai camera crews in
the van outside the venue.
I'd had a girlfriend who was aTV producer before that, so I'd
seen her do it in New York.
How hard can it be?
How hard can it be?
How hard can it be directinglive TV.
Anyonecan do that.
Geoff (29:44):
What was the last concert you went to?
Simon (29:47):
I think last Thursday I saw Evan Iverson do a solo thing
down at the 606 Club, which washe's the piano player from The
Bad Plus, from the Bad Plus,yeah, yeah.
Who left a few years ago.
Geoff (30:02):
The Bad Plus does that still exist.
Simon (30:04):
It does, but they got another piano player in and then
he left and then they got aguitarist and a saxophone player
.
Geoff (30:11):
It's not quite the same is it.
Simon (30:13):
I know I listened to their latest album and I was
going through every track tryingto find the piano bits.
Geoff (30:17):
But there was no piano on there.
So the Bad Plus was a kind ofpower piano trio.
Really wasn't it a kind ofrocky?
It really wasn't it A kind ofrocky?
Yeah, well, it was.
It wasn't really jazz was it?
Simon (30:25):
No, not at all, but it was very interesting to take
that line up and it was notunlike the Bill Evans trio the
last Bill Evans trio where everyinstrument had a very clear
role, and Bad Plus took that alittle bit further.
So it wasn't a piano trio, itwas a three-piece band with
(30:46):
piano, bass and drums.
Um, interesting, yeah andanyway he was over here doing a
solo solo piano.
So the first, first night of aof his first solo piano tour so
that was that was interesting.
Geoff (31:03):
What would you say was your musical weakness?
Simon (31:05):
An inability to practice as much as I should.
Geoff (31:09):
Is that to do with motivation, do you think?
Simon (31:13):
I don't know.
No, I want to do it.
Geoff (31:16):
Well, if you want, why don't you do it?
Then Just get on with it, mate.
Simon (31:20):
Yeah, I know, I've got all the instruction books over
there, Beethoven, Bach, they'reall there.
All I've got to do is put themon the piano and play them.
What's the problem?
Eh, the older I get, the more Ienjoy the journey of trying to
survive.
You know, I always think I'mslightly out of my depth, but I
think that's a good thing.
Geoff (31:48):
I think it's good to be out of your depth.
I like working with musiciansthat I'm not really fit to play
with.
Hopefully you know you'd be thewhole thing about jazz
musicians that we're supportiveof each other, aren't we?
We mostly tolerate.
You know the different,different abilities and
different levels.
You know do you think so?
Simon (31:56):
no, no no, it's, it's extremely competitive.
Okay, and why not?
Really yeah.
But I think it's supportive ina human way, but not in a Really
.
No, I think people get on thebandstand to cut each other, to
(32:17):
roast each other, yeah.
Geoff (32:18):
Okay, great.
Do you ever get nervous onstage?
Simon (32:23):
I work very hard not to
Geoff (32:26):
Do you remember a time when you did, for example?
Simon (32:29):
Yeah, oh yeah, try not to entertain the idea because I
don't think it helps.
It's good to be a bit, you know, on your toes, but I don't
think getting nervous helps.
So it's something I've made aconcerted effort not to do.
Peter Ind said something againway back in the 80s and he said
(32:52):
you know, being nervous is aluxury you can't afford.
Oh interesting.
Geoff (32:57):
I think, there's a lot of truth in that Peter Ind was the
bass player.
He played with Lee Konitz,didn't he?
Simon (33:02):
Yeah, played with Charlie Parker.
Geoff (33:05):
And he also run that jazz club, the Bass Clef, didn't he?
Yeah, yeah, In Hoxton, whichwas amazing when back in the 90s
, wasn't it?
Simon (33:13):
Yeah.
Geoff (33:16):
What's your favourite sandwich?
Simon (33:18):
Well, it used to be a Reuben, but I've been veggie for
many years now, so Vegetablesthen, then I'll be Vegetables.
Geoff (33:32):
What about?
a favourite movie
Simon (33:35):
Favourite movie.
I do like Taxi Driver.
You're looking at me, you'relooking at me.
I don't like to watch it toooften.
It's pretty depressing, butgreat score.
Bernard d Herman's Herrmann'slast score fantastic, but the
movie as well.
Geoff (33:53):
I saw it when it came out what about a favourite venue, a
concert hall or a particularvenue you like?
Simon (34:02):
Hackney Empire.
I once did a jazz and poetryyou like?
Hackney Empire.
I once did a jazz and poetrything at the Hackney Empire with
a stand-up comedian who hadtaken to writing poetry and the
audience wanted him to dostand-up but he insisted on just
doing his poetry with free jazzand they hated the poetry so
much that they cheered the freejazz and booed the poetry.
(34:25):
And we got booed.
Not, you didn't get booed offstage because you refused to
leave the stage, but it was agreat experience to be sitting
on stage playing free jazz.
Hearing two and a half thousandpeople booing you at the
Hackney Empire was I thought Iwas very, very, very pleased for
having had that experience
Geoff (34:43):
What about a favorite country or city that you like to
go to or play?
Simon (34:47):
I'm going to Amsterdam on Thursday, which is somewhere I
haven't been for a long time.
Geoff (34:50):
Great okay.
What are you doing in Amsterdam?
Simon (34:53):
It's my wedding anniversary.
Geoff (34:55):
Are you going with?
Sarah.
Simon (34:56):
No, I'm going on my own.
It's our 25th weddinganniversary, so we're going to
Amsterdam.
Fantastic, but I haven't beenthere since the 80s, but I
always used to enjoy Amsterdamit's a lovely time of years ago,
isn't it?
Geoff (35:09):
we're in the spring and it's just.
It'll be gorgeous.
Simon (35:11):
Oh it always rains in Amsterdam when you least expect
it.
From what I remember, yeah, NewYork is one of my, still one of
my favourite cities.
Geoff (35:19):
but and one last question what's your favourite chord?
Simon (35:24):
Ah, the Messiaen, chord, ah, ooh.
Geoff (35:32):
Double diminished.
Okay, can you tell us what thenotes are?
Simon (35:40):
It's like a diminished chord with another diminished
chord, a tone higher.
Geoff (35:43):
Ooh, that's tasty, isn't it?
Simon (35:44):
Alice and Strayhorn were heavily into it.
They used to apparently go toeach other's apartments and go
Ooh, Messiaen used this a lotFabulous yeah.
Geoff (35:55):
Well, simon, thank you very much for your time.
It's been great.
There's loads of informationthere.
People can pause it and listento the technical stuff.
I hope it didn't get too geekyfor people, but um
And great to hear your new app.
I think it sounds fantastic,thank you I wasn't when I was
being roasted.
Back then it felt like having abass and drums play down your
(36:16):
cans.
Not, not an app.
Extraordinary, I
All right.
Thanks a lot.
Search for Quartet on the AppStore or find out more at
quartetappdotcom.
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here.
Today I'm in South London, I'min Honor Oak Park, just got off
a train and I'm going to see avery old friend of mine, Simon
Wallace, who's a fantastic pianoplayer, accompanist, arranger,
educator.
I'm looking forward to seeinghim and catching up and seeing
(00:24):
what he has to say about manythings.
Here we go.
Announcement (00:44):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level.
Geoff (00:53):
Simon, how are you today?
You all right,
Simon (00:54):
Very well, seems like only last night.
Geoff (00:56):
Simon's a part of my songwriting club, which we love,
don't we?
We're having a good time.
Yeah, it was a good one lastnight, wasn't it
was.
It was great, really good.
It was been running a songwriting club uh, every side
of every week.
Um, you weren't there from thebeginning, were you?
Simon (01:10):
No, I came in about 18 months ago yeah,
Geoff (01:14):
Which is still a long time.
We're up to week 96 now.
We meet usually every threeweeks now and write a song on a
given title, and I host a Zoommeeting.
And it's brilliant, isn't it?
Simon (01:23):
But I I'd never written lyrics before
Geoff (01:25):
Because you're so used to working with Fran, weren't you?
You were co-writer with FranLandesman for years.
Simon (01:29):
Yeah, and before that I had a songwriting partner for
about 10 years.
Geoff (01:34):
You'd never written any lyrics before that.
Simon (01:36):
Well, I worked with a guy called Simon Brint who was the
sort of main music person forall the Comic Strip and the
Comedy Store back in the late70s.
That all started.
I moved to London in 1978.
And my first gig was at theclub called the Blitz Club in
Covent Garden, which was thewhole New Romantic thing, and we
were on three nights a week andBoy George was the hat check
(01:59):
girl at the time.
He just worked in the cloakrooms.
Geoff (02:02):
So were you in full romantic gear baggy, trousers
and makeup and was that you?
Simon (02:06):
No, I was in uh, Marks and Spencer's polyester trousers
and uh, because I wasn't reallyinterested in any of that.
I just wanted to play jazz.
I studied music university andI left in summer of 1978
So presumably you studiedclassical music.
though didn't, you know?
Yeah, there wouldn't have beenany jazz courses back then
would there
Thereweren't.
No, well, there was the LeedsCollege of Music, but it didn't
(02:30):
do a degree, it just did adiploma which my parents
wouldn't have approved of.
Geoff (02:36):
Where did you get the taste for jazz?
then A teacher at school.
When I was 11, in my first yearin secondary school there was
a music teacher who played jazzpiano and you know from what I
remember it was, he was amazing,but probably on some spectrum
or other he was a very strangeperson and I just latched on to.
I heard him play this music andI just like bugged him after
(03:00):
every music lesson.
I'd hang around at the end ofevery lesson and just make him
tell me things, wow, and then gohome.
My dad had just bought a taperecorder and so I used to tape
all the jazz programs that wereon BBC.
I used to go to lots ofclassical concerts.
My parents were into classicalmusic.
It didn't excite me inparticular.
(03:20):
And then Georgie Fame came outwith Bonnie and Clyde and so I
went to Smith's to buy itbecause I liked it so much.
I heard it on the radio andthen it just sort of didn't
really think much about musicuntil I was about 11, 12, I
suddenly stumbled across thisweird music.
Yeah, I mean what I've saidthis before.
It's a bit of a cliche, butit's true that I thought I
(03:42):
discovered a magic window intoanother world, which was you
kind of did really.
Yeah, I mean that's true that Ithought I'd discovered a magic
window into another world whichwas Well, you kind of did really
.
Yeah, I mean, everyone's gottheir own relationship with jazz
, don't they?
Simon (03:52):
Yeah, and it was a window into black American culture, in
particular in New York.
And I didn't.
I'm from South Wales and I wasobsessed with going to New York.
You know, all I wanted to dowas to be in New York and I
didn't make it to New York tillI was 22,.
Geoff (04:13):
I think anyone who's into jazz is obsessed with New York,
aren't they?
Yeah?
Simon (04:17):
Because it's the kind of Mecca.
Geoff (04:18):
It's got such a reputation.
Simon (04:20):
Well, I mean, I remember my first night in New York.
We went to a piano bar calledBradley's.
I remember sitting therethinking this fantasy I had
about it being a window into amagic world was actually true.
And I think it was.
Geoff (04:37):
You stepped through the doors of Bradley's and you were
in another world.
Yeah, yeah, what happened then?
You got into writing for TV andthat kind of stuff as well, did
you?
Simon (04:45):
I got into that through meeting Simon Brint.
I met Simon at the Blitz Cluband he was working at not the
Comedy Store, the Comic Strip.
When it first started he waslike the musical director and
the drummer was a guy calledRoland Riveron who went on and
had an alternative career.
But when I met Roland he was 17and he'd just left school and
(05:08):
all he wanted to do was playdrums, like Billy Higgins.
And it came about through abass player called Erica Howard.
I'd been at Oxford doing musicand Erica had gone to Oxford at
the same time as me 1975, andI'd met her at the Oxford Poly
Big Band.
Geoff (05:27):
Did you study it in Oxford?
Did you go there in university?
What were you studying inOxford
Music?
And I thought well, if I applyto Oxford doing music, I
obviously won't get in and I cango to Sheffield, which is my
second choice, but I can take ayear off.
It just seemed like a reallygood excuse to take a year off
and then play music.
And it all went wrong because Igot into Oxford doing music,
(05:47):
which was never the plan well,
Surely in Oxford you did, youlearn about um arranging and
orchestration and all thosethings?
Simon (05:54):
No, you didn't I learned how to write palestrina
counterpoint.
Ah, okay, and fugues.
I can write you a fugue, if youall right.
I've been waiting for someoneto ask me to do either of those
two things for the last 50 years, it's all over.
Yeah, it was 1975, so it'scoming up to 50 years, yeah,
yeah.
But when I got there I wasreally excited because I thought
(06:16):
, well, Oxford, there'll beloads of jazz.
And you know, because therewasn't a lot of jazz in Newport
and Cardiff, you, because therewasn't a lot of jazz in Newport
and Cardiff, you really had tokind of look for it.
So I did all the bookings forthe second term.
Oh right, and so the first termI was there.
We used to have one guest, onesort of concert a year, and then
it was once a week in the pub.
Yeah, and the house band when Iwent there was the Avon City's
(06:39):
jazz band and the first concertwas George Chisholm.
And then the second term, Itook over and the first concert
was the Stan Tracy Quartet withArt Theman and Bryan Spring and
Dave Green, and the house bandturned into the Pat Crumley's
Edge, if you recall.
So Pat at that time was asemi-power musician
Geoff (07:00):
Terrific yeah.
Great saxophone player.
Speaking of paying for guests, Iremember speaking to Bob .
To Bob, who was a greatamerican singer, songwriter.
Um, check him out if you don't.
You don't know him, but hepassed away a few years ago.
But we had some great timeswith Bob, didn't we?
yeah but I remember him tellingme that, uh, because he played
with Charlie Parker, you knowwell, did he tell you this story
(07:20):
?
Yeah, this is the one where,where he was in a house trio and
they all clubbed together andpaid money for Charlie Parker to
come and play when he was inNew York and they were all
nervous because they were youngand Charlie Parker was an
incredible hero.
So they saved up this money togive to Charlie Parker, and
Charlie Parker shows up at fivein the morning, you know, off
his head, and plays.
(07:40):
You know, plays one tune withthem or something.
I think that's what they used todo in those days, those
soloists.
They used to get paid just tocome and make little guests.
And of course, Bob was on theMiles album, wasn't he?
Yeah, he was on the album,Sorcerer.
Simon (07:53):
On Sorcerer.
That's right.
Yeah, what had happened is thatMiles Davis used to stay with a
friend of Bob's when he was inSan Francisco, I think, and she
played in Bob's album.
And then he went to see Bobplaying in a club and they got
(08:15):
Bob in to write Blue Xmasbecause Miles had to do a
Christmas song for the CBSChristmas record.
So that's how Bob got involved.
Geoff (08:23):
Had some really great memories of hanging out with Bob
, you know, especially in NewYork, you know, when I used to
go there a lot with Jamie Cullum.
Simon (08:31):
I think I was there when you met.
Geoff (08:33):
Yeah, I think he was.
Yeah, Joe's Pub or somethinglike that.
Yeah.
Simon (08:36):
I was doing Joe's Pub with Fran Landesman, Bob and
Jackie Cain and you were at theAlgonquin, weren't you?
Very possibly, yeah, with JamieCullum, and you all came down,
yeah yeah.
And I think that was the firstnight that Jamie and you had met
Bob.
Geoff (08:52):
That's very possible yeah , yeah, Bob always used to
cruise into town in his Beamer,didn't he in his BMW?
Yeah, I'll never forget that.
Yeah.
What a lovely man.
Simon (09:02):
Then I started going back to New York with Barb Jungr and
I'd always hook up with Bobsomewhere along the line.
Geoff (09:11):
Yeah, we did every time.
Every time we went there, wecalled him up and he'd always
come down.
You know what amazing energythat guy had.
Simon (09:17):
Yeah, extraordinary.
Geoff (09:18):
He came.
I remember we did a tour, a UKtour.
He came over and sung withTrudy as well and he stayed at
our house for, you know, for thetime he was here he'd be up
playing the piano.
Seven in the morning, you knowwe get back at two.
You know, after a late gig he'dbe up playing the piano.
Yeah, and I remember my Ruby umhim, I've singing the tune
(09:46):
Ruby, to Ruby.
you know, first thing in themorning, you know, and getting
he has his coffee amazing yeaheveryone should check out his
early, his early albums where hesings Yardbird Suite and
there's yeah, those bebop things.
You know it's brilliant.
Yeah, so are you aware of myapps?
Simon (10:04):
I I am aware of your apps .
Yeah, jo are jolly good theyare too.
Geoff (10:06):
Thank you very much.
I asked you to pick a tune toplay on because we were talking
about Barry Harris, so you choseAutumn Leaves, right?
I mean, Autumn Leaves is one ofthe first standards that
everyone should learn.
Can you talk a little bit aboutBarry Harris?
You studied with him a littlebit, didn't you?
Simon (10:28):
Yeah, way back, I think it was 1981, he used to run
these workshops which he did allhis life.
I mean, Barry Harris was aDetroit piano player who was
obsessed with teaching from avery young age and he started
off teaching people in Detroit,including a lot of the people
involved with Motown and theFunk Brothers.
I think he taught James Jameson, you know, and he was quite an
(10:49):
odd person.
He then landed probably thesecond biggest gig in the world,
the jazz gig in the world atthe time, which was the
Cannonball Adderley Quintet, andhe got the gig and he got
fitted for the band suit and,you know, did all that and he
lasted about 10 days and handedhis notice in.
He said nothing for me to do.
(11:11):
Extraordinary, really.
And that was a very, very highlypaid gig apart from everything
else.
But you know, musicallyextraordinary
Geoff (11:19):
, Very undefined hundefined, and I guess to do
something like that I don'tthink.
Simon (11:23):
I'd ever quit a band.
That's Barry.
Yeah, so he was, that's theSidewinder, isn't it?
Geoff (11:31):
Yeah, yeah, and he was.
That's the.
Simon (11:32):
Sidewinder, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, and he played thatbrilliantly.
Geoff (11:36):
I mean, that's one of the great sort of yeah, but that's
more about pop music, reallyisn't it?
It is yeah, that is yeah.
Simon (11:42):
He just wanted to explore this idea of teaching harmony
the way that he saw it, and hewasn't part of any university or
many faculty, he just did it onhis own, just plowed his own
furrough.
So when I arrived in New York,I went along to one of these
workshops and they were theselong, rambling, three-hour
(12:03):
workshops.
It used to cost $8 or somethingand he had this theory of
harmony which was to get youaway from thinking in
two-five-ones.
Right okay.
So it kind of went against thegrain of the way that jazz was
being taught, because this isright at the time when jazz
courses were first comingtogether.
(12:24):
This is back in 1981.
There were two teachers in NewYork that everybody deferred to
who?
Was the other one, Hal Galper.
Right, that everybody deferredto.
Who was the other one, HalGalper Right.
And the difference betweenBarry Harris and Hal Galper was
that Barry Harris was like $8for three hours and Hal Galper
was, I think, $50 for an hour inthose days, right.
Geoff (12:42):
How did their two methods differ?
I don't think Hal Galper had amethod.
I had one lesson with HalGalper because I didn't have the
money and it was extraordinary.
I mean, I think Hal Galper wasa really brilliant teacher.
There's a couple of videos ofhim on YouTube, just a handful,
but he's still alive and he'sstill, you know, ranting on
(13:03):
social media.
It's absolute gold.
I love Hal Galper's approach.
I love his piano playing aswell.
I mean, he's an extraordinarypianist.
Barry Harris had a.
I love his piano playing aswell.
He's an extraordinary pianistBarry Harris had.
I love Barry Harris' pianoplaying.
Barry Harris was a bebop pianoplayer through and through.
He played with Coleman Hawkinsand Parker incredible, yeah.
And he really understood Monk'smusic.
(13:25):
He studied, spent a lot of timewith Monk.
Did you startputting some of the ideas that
Barry Harris were teaching?
Were you starting putting someof the ideas for the Barry
Harris were teaching?
Were you starting using some ofthose?
Oh, straight away.
Simon (13:36):
Yeah, you were, yeah what it is is is a, a method of
thinking about harmony where youdon't know what you're doing,
right, uh, rather than doingsomething where you do know what
you're doing.
And that, that very first tripto New York, the most memorable
thing that that I saw was a gigin a loft and it was two pianos,
(13:57):
Barry Harris and Tommy Flanagan, and bass and drums and and it
was the most incredible to andfro I've never seen, seen At at
the time, I had never seenanything as spontaneous.
Wow, you know that that that,Tommy omm tommy Tommy would play
something and Barry would go,hmm, play something back, and
Tommy would go ooh, what aboutthat?
(14:17):
But it was back and forth thewhole time.
Amazing, absolutely brilliant.
And what Barry's theory wasthere for fore, was to enable
that to happen.
It was to enable you tosurprise yourself mid-phrase by
getting rid of licks and gettingrid of 2-5-1s and replacing it
with this theory that , I cangive you a pre-see precis of it,
(14:39):
if you wouldn't mind, just to.
So if you've got 12 notes in ascale, how do you divide up
those 12 notes?
Well, one way is to gowhole-tone scale, whole tone
scale.
So Barry's theory is you've gotthe father scale and the mother
scale.
There were elements of religioncomes in as well, you know, and
(15:00):
then you know.
So the father and the motherscale come together and if you
combine those two scales youthen get three diminished scales
.
So that's two notes from thefirst whole tone scale, two
notes from the second whole tonescale's two notes from the
first whole tone scale, twonotes from the second whole tone
scale, two notes from the firstone, two notes from the second
one.
So you've got three diminishedscales and two whole tone scales
(15:23):
.
So the diminished scale, thediminished chord, becomes the
key to everything.
So a diminished chord is flatfives, two flat fives.
What I'd been learning atOxford was, some cadence, just
regular cadences yeah.
(15:51):
So two-five-one cadences,interrupted cadences, and
because the cadence is a tritoneresolving.
So with that you've got the.
So that tritone resolving,you've got the same thing with a
diminished chord.
So what Barry Harris' theorywas that a four note diminished
(16:16):
chord would resolve to a fournote sixth chord, so that D
diminished will resolve to C6.
But equally, it will resolve inexactly the same way to E flat.
It will resolve in exactly thesame way to F sharp, and in the
same way to A.
Geoff (16:36):
So that's like a pathway to loads of different doors, I
suppose isn't it.
Simon (16:40):
And a sixth chord is the same thing as a minor seventh
chord, same notes.
So immediately you play onediminished chord and it will
resolve with perfect resolutionto eight other keys, those four
(17:03):
major keys and the minor keys.
So once you get your headaround that it increases the
number of possibilities.
Geoff (17:10):
Let's think of a practical approach.
Say we're going to play AutumnLeaves In in a minute, um the
start of autumn Autumn leavesLeaves goes a bar of c minor
seven and bar of f7 F7 andresolves to does it.
Simon (17:21):
It does does it is, is that?
Geoff (17:24):
what it is.
Okay again.
So a two, five, one in in bflat, yeah.
So how are you going to use?
How are you going to use theBarry Harris method?
That's my question.
Simon (17:38):
So is that a C minor 7 chord or is it an E flat 6 chord
?
Same notes?
It's both.
Yeah, it depends on how youvoice it.
So what chord?
Let's say it's an E flat 6chord.
What chord leads to that?
It'll be a D diminished chord.
Yeah, so D diminished chord, B,D.
(18:02):
Obviously, diminished chordsdon't invert.
They stay the same if you putthem in different versions.
So when you get that firstchord, put them in different
versions.
So when you get that firstchord you go straight to the
diminished chord and then thetheory is you can borrow notes
(18:34):
from that diminished chord.
So what I'm doing there isplaying a C minor chord but I'm
also putting in notes from theassociated diminished chord.
So I'm borrowing notes from thediminished chord and you get
patterns like yeah, and hiswhole approach was about taking
(18:54):
a chord and going, E flat 6, Cminor 7, E flat 6.
Suppose I borrow from, I'llborrow a B, I'm going to borrow
an A flat as well, and he'dalways be looking down his hands
going.
I haven't heard that before.
And of course, once you combinethat with the obvious thing
(19:17):
that if you put a diminishedchord over it becomes a flat 9.
Geoff (19:26):
So you lower any of the notes of the diminished chord
and it becomes a dominant 7thchord, exactly, or you raise any
note and it becomes a dominantseventh chord, exactly, yeah,
yeah, or you, or you raise anynote and it becomes a minor
sixth chord, yeah, yeah um,getting terribly nerdy here,
aren't we god, I hopeeveryone's still.
Simon (19:42):
I'm turned off by now, which which brings us around to
Thelonious Monk and you thinkabout Round Midnight.
You know lots and lots of halfdiminished chords in in Monk's
music and Monk never called it ahalf diminished chord in Monk's
music and Monk never called ita half diminished chord.
He always called , He he wouldwould have called that an E
minor, 6 chord over C, right, sohe he thinks of his half
(20:04):
diminished chords as being 6chords.
Yeah, so in the Barry Harris,yeah, that gives you that
resolution.
So the C half diminished chord,your go-to chord, is an A flat
diminished chord.
(20:24):
So it's all things like that.
Geoff (20:32):
Sorry, that's the sound of my head exploding,
Simon (20:33):
but it completely blew my mind, because what he explained
to me was everything that I'dlearnt at Oxford about Chopin,
but it made much more sense.
Of course, that was the basisof Barry's musical thinking was
Chopin Is that right?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think that was the basisof of great American songbook
(20:56):
harmony.
Geoff (20:57):
because if if that's why I love Chopin.
I wondered that.
Simon (21:01):
Well, if you think about beautiful melodies that you hear
in Chopin's music and theharmony, you know my take on on
on not just jazz, but take on onon not just jazz, but but on on
on black American music ingeneral is there was there was a
sort of a divide between peoplewho grew up in houses with
pianos and people who didn't,and the divide was was very much
(21:22):
middle class versus workingclass and, of course, the, the
music of.
Geoff (21:26):
I think that's still true today, isn't it?
Simon (21:28):
oh, yeah, yeah, I think it was particularly true the
beginning of the 20th century.
You know, the working classblack music was guitar-based,
was blues, and the middle classblack music was piano-based.
Piano in 1900 was the sameprice as a family saloon car is
today.
So having a piano, it was astatus symbol, but it was also.
(21:48):
it meant that you couldentertain.
It meant that you were thecentre of a community.
Geoff (21:53):
Because they didn't have Netflix in those days, did they?
Simon (21:56):
Apparently not no, and the internet was in its infancy,
the most common place to have agood piano would be the pastor.
So the church became a centreof obviously all sorts of things
, but music in particular, andso you find loads and loads of
(22:16):
great jazz musicians were sonsand daughters of clergymen, or
at least people who were churchpeople, and what was in the
piano bench was Chopin.
So if you learned the piano in1910, 1920, 1930, the first
thing you'd learn would beChopin and Clementi and you know
(22:38):
all that repetois, Same as now,really.
Geoff (22:43):
So let's get back to Autumn Leaves.
We digress a little bit.
Simon (22:48):
It's not really digressing, because Autumn
Leaves isn't an American song,it's a French song which is a
whole other thing, Pour les mots.
Geoff (22:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly so what we're going to do.
I'm going to mute the piano, soyou're just going to hear the
bass, drum.
Yeah, exactly so what we'regoing to do.
I'm going to mute the piano, soyou're just going to hear the
bass and the drums.
No, not your piano.
We're going to mute the piano.
Simon (23:07):
It's Graham Harvey isn't it Graham Harvey?
Yeah, you don't want to muteGraham.
We don't want him.
He's a proper piano player.
Geoff (23:12):
So you're going to hear the bass and the drums.
You're going to play this.
I think I'm going to have totry and get as many sixths and
diminished things as I can.
Simon (23:32):
Yeah, okay, we'll try and keep up.
All right, okay.
So here we go.
There's an eight barintroduction, which is G minor
six.
Ah, g minor six, aren't we Fsharp diminished.
Geoff (23:40):
Yeah, you play whichever one you like, right, right, ok.
And then we're playing AutumnLeaves, which is in the key of B
flat.
So your first chord will be Cminor 7, F7 to B flat.
But you don't care about thatstuff, do you?
Simon (23:55):
Oh, God, I'm already.
I'm looking at the keyboard andI don't understand any of it.
Geoff (24:00):
Just hit a few notes and then you'll surprise yourself
no-transcript.
(26:44):
I admit that.
That was great yeah.
Simon (26:48):
That sounds great.
I mean they're bass and drums.
Geoff (26:52):
It's real guys, you know.
It's us.
With all four apps now there's500 tunes to choose from, so the
catalogue is becoming biggerand bigger.
Simon (27:01):
So you actually played that in real time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (27:05):
So that's every standard we've played, usually two
choruses of every standard Forthree and four we recorded 200
tunes, so there's 100 on each.
That's what I say to my Lewis,who's studying at the moment.
I say learn the first 150 fromvolume one.
I mean mean that includes allthe obvious.
(27:26):
you know the, All The ThingsYou Are, the Stella By Star
light, the blues is, and allthese you know Autumn Leaves is
obviously on one.
Simon (27:32):
You know, I mean I, I I kind of believe that that thing
of learning standards is is asrelevant as it ever was.
I mean, it's an extraordinarybody of work.
Geoff (27:50):
Right.
So to finish off, I've got afew questions which I'm asking
everyone in the podcast.
I hope that's okay.
Starting with, do you have afavourite album?
Bill Evans, Alone,
Good choice.
What is it about Bill Evansthat you think is special?
T
Simon (28:04):
The way he plays the piano.
Oh yeah, no, I mean I love BillEvans, his whole conception of
music, yeah, and that, thatalbum, I bought it, I think, as
soon as it came out here when Iwas about 13.
Extraordinary, I mean, and it'sjust, yeah, I keep going back
to it amazing.
Geoff (28:23):
Is there a favourite musician, alive or dead?
You, I mean, and it's just yeah, I keep going back to it.
Amazing Is there a favouritemusician alive?
Simon (28:30):
or dead.
You'd love to play with EdThigpen oh interesting, you know
.
Or Billy Higgins, you know thatera of drumming, New York
drumming, yeah, straight ahead.
There's just something of thatlightness of touch that you get
with those guys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (28:44):
Has there been a highlight of your career or is
there a memorable geek momentthat you've had?
Simon (28:49):
There's been a few kind of quite surreal ones.
I wrote a symphony for the Kingof Thailand's 60th birthday.
Okay, it was broadcast on allfour Thai TV channels
simultaneously live, so I had40 minutes.
Were you there conducting ittoo?
No, no, I was there.
(29:11):
The actual concert was anightmare, so I managed to get
out of it by directing thecamera crews.
Geoff (29:20):
Telling them which instrument was the soloist.
Simon (29:22):
Yeah, so I had four separate Thai camera crews in
the van outside the venue.
I'd had a girlfriend who was aTV producer before that, so I'd
seen her do it in New York.
How hard can it be?
How hard can it be?
How hard can it be directinglive TV.
Anyonecan do that.
Geoff (29:44):
What was the last concert you went to?
Simon (29:47):
I think last Thursday I saw Evan Iverson do a solo thing
down at the 606 Club, which washe's the piano player from The
Bad Plus, from the Bad Plus,yeah, yeah.
Who left a few years ago.
Geoff (30:02):
The Bad Plus does that still exist.
Simon (30:04):
It does, but they got another piano player in and then
he left and then they got aguitarist and a saxophone player
.
Geoff (30:11):
It's not quite the same is it.
Simon (30:13):
I know I listened to their latest album and I was
going through every track tryingto find the piano bits.
Geoff (30:17):
But there was no piano on there.
So the Bad Plus was a kind ofpower piano trio.
Really wasn't it a kind ofrocky?
It really wasn't it A kind ofrocky?
Yeah, well, it was.
It wasn't really jazz was it?
Simon (30:25):
No, not at all, but it was very interesting to take
that line up and it was notunlike the Bill Evans trio the
last Bill Evans trio where everyinstrument had a very clear
role, and Bad Plus took that alittle bit further.
So it wasn't a piano trio, itwas a three-piece band with
(30:46):
piano, bass and drums.
Um, interesting, yeah andanyway he was over here doing a
solo solo piano.
So the first, first night of aof his first solo piano tour so
that was that was interesting.
Geoff (31:03):
What would you say was your musical weakness?
Simon (31:05):
An inability to practice as much as I should.
Geoff (31:09):
Is that to do with motivation, do you think?
Simon (31:13):
I don't know.
No, I want to do it.
Geoff (31:16):
Well, if you want, why don't you do it?
Then Just get on with it, mate.
Simon (31:20):
Yeah, I know, I've got all the instruction books over
there, Beethoven, Bach, they'reall there.
All I've got to do is put themon the piano and play them.
What's the problem?
Eh, the older I get, the more Ienjoy the journey of trying to
survive.
You know, I always think I'mslightly out of my depth, but I
think that's a good thing.
Geoff (31:48):
I think it's good to be out of your depth.
I like working with musiciansthat I'm not really fit to play
with.
Hopefully you know you'd be thewhole thing about jazz
musicians that we're supportiveof each other, aren't we?
We mostly tolerate.
You know the different,different abilities and
different levels.
You know do you think so?
Simon (31:56):
no, no no, it's, it's extremely competitive.
Okay, and why not?
Really yeah.
But I think it's supportive ina human way, but not in a Really
.
No, I think people get on thebandstand to cut each other, to
(32:17):
roast each other, yeah.
Geoff (32:18):
Okay, great.
Do you ever get nervous onstage?
Simon (32:23):
I work very hard not to
Geoff (32:26):
Do you remember a time when you did, for example?
Simon (32:29):
Yeah, oh yeah, try not to entertain the idea because I
don't think it helps.
It's good to be a bit, you know, on your toes, but I don't
think getting nervous helps.
So it's something I've made aconcerted effort not to do.
Peter Ind said something againway back in the 80s and he said
(32:52):
you know, being nervous is aluxury you can't afford.
Oh interesting.
Geoff (32:57):
I think, there's a lot of truth in that Peter Ind was the
bass player.
He played with Lee Konitz,didn't he?
Simon (33:02):
Yeah, played with Charlie Parker.
Geoff (33:05):
And he also run that jazz club, the Bass Clef, didn't he?
Yeah, yeah, In Hoxton, whichwas amazing when back in the 90s
, wasn't it?
Simon (33:13):
Yeah.
Geoff (33:16):
What's your favourite sandwich?
Simon (33:18):
Well, it used to be a Reuben, but I've been veggie for
many years now, so Vegetablesthen, then I'll be Vegetables.
Geoff (33:32):
What about?
a favourite movie
Simon (33:35):
Favourite movie.
I do like Taxi Driver.
You're looking at me, you'relooking at me.
I don't like to watch it toooften.
It's pretty depressing, butgreat score.
Bernard d Herman's Herrmann'slast score fantastic, but the
movie as well.
Geoff (33:53):
I saw it when it came out what about a favourite venue, a
concert hall or a particularvenue you like?
Simon (34:02):
Hackney Empire.
I once did a jazz and poetryyou like?
Hackney Empire.
I once did a jazz and poetrything at the Hackney Empire with
a stand-up comedian who hadtaken to writing poetry and the
audience wanted him to dostand-up but he insisted on just
doing his poetry with free jazzand they hated the poetry so
much that they cheered the freejazz and booed the poetry.
(34:25):
And we got booed.
Not, you didn't get booed offstage because you refused to
leave the stage, but it was agreat experience to be sitting
on stage playing free jazz.
Hearing two and a half thousandpeople booing you at the
Hackney Empire was I thought Iwas very, very, very pleased for
having had that experience
Geoff (34:43):
What about a favorite country or city that you like to
go to or play?
Simon (34:47):
I'm going to Amsterdam on Thursday, which is somewhere I
haven't been for a long time.
Geoff (34:50):
Great okay.
What are you doing in Amsterdam?
Simon (34:53):
It's my wedding anniversary.
Geoff (34:55):
Are you going with?
Sarah.
Simon (34:56):
No, I'm going on my own.
It's our 25th weddinganniversary, so we're going to
Amsterdam.
Fantastic, but I haven't beenthere since the 80s, but I
always used to enjoy Amsterdamit's a lovely time of years ago,
isn't it?
Geoff (35:09):
we're in the spring and it's just.
It'll be gorgeous.
Simon (35:11):
Oh it always rains in Amsterdam when you least expect
it.
From what I remember, yeah, NewYork is one of my, still one of
my favourite cities.
Geoff (35:19):
but and one last question what's your favourite chord?
Simon (35:24):
Ah, the Messiaen, chord, ah, ooh.
Geoff (35:32):
Double diminished.
Okay, can you tell us what thenotes are?
Simon (35:40):
It's like a diminished chord with another diminished
chord, a tone higher.
Geoff (35:43):
Ooh, that's tasty, isn't it?
Simon (35:44):
Alice and Strayhorn were heavily into it.
They used to apparently go toeach other's apartments and go
Ooh, Messiaen used this a lotFabulous yeah.
Geoff (35:55):
Well, simon, thank you very much for your time.
It's been great.
There's loads of informationthere.
People can pause it and listento the technical stuff.
I hope it didn't get too geekyfor people, but um
And great to hear your new app.
I think it sounds fantastic,thank you I wasn't when I was
being roasted.
Back then it felt like having abass and drums play down your
(36:16):
cans.
Not, not an app.
Extraordinary, I
All right.
Thanks a lot.
Search for Quartet on the AppStore or find out more at
quartetappdotcom.
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