August 28, 2025 • 38 mins
Geoff is in Greenwich, London to meet with the renowned saxophonist and composer Mark Lockheart.
Mark's story begins with the heartwarming image of waking up to his father's jazz records and following his dad into saxophone playing at age eleven. What follows is a rich narrative of musical discovery that spans decades.
Mark vividly recalls the American record club that delivered formative jazz recordings to his family home, introducing him to the sounds of Wes Montgomery and Paul Desmond that would shape his musical sensibilities. His path led through classical saxophone studies at Trinity College, where fateful meetings with musicians like Django Bates and John Parricelli set the stage for his involvement with the revolutionary jazz collective Loose Tubes in the early 1980s.
The conversation delves into Mark's distinctive approach to composition – intuitive, often arising from improvisation rather than formal theory. "For me, writing is all about counterpoint," he explains, describing how he focuses on melody and bass movement before determining the chords between them. This approach has served him well through various projects, from the quartet Perfect Houseplants to his most ambitious orchestral work ‘Days on Earth’ (2019).
Perhaps most revealing is Mark's complex relationship with jazz standards. Despite considering them foundational to his practice routine and musical development, he has never recorded them on his own albums – a hesitation born from deep respect for the definitive versions that already exist. Through demonstrations and stories, Mark illustrates how saxophone masters like Henderson, Rollins, and Coltrane shaped his sound through imitation and absorption rather than formal instruction.
The conversation culminates in a philosophical insight that resonates beyond music: "The older I get, the more I realise that the things you can't do are as important as the things you can do." Mark's journey reminds us that finding your voice isn't about mastering everything, but about making something distinctive with what you have.
Explore this fascinating musical conversation and hear Mark's interpretation of the 1940s Van Heusen/Burke standard ‘It Could Happen To You’ accompanied by the Quartet app of course! Subscribe now and discover more illuminating jazz dialogues in future episodes.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here.
Today I'm in South London, inGreenwich, home of the Mean Time
, and I'm going to see a veryold friend, Mr Mark Lockheart,
who's a terrific tenor saxophoneplayer, I've known for a very
long time.
We're gonna have a little chatabout the origination of Loose
Tubes, playing in small andlarge ensembles, composition,
(00:25):
all sorts of tasty stuff.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:47):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS.
Taking your jazz play along toanother level,
Geoff (00:57):
Mark Lockheart, hello, hello.
Thanks for having me around
Mark (01:00):
Nice to see you Geoff
Geoff (01:01):
In your lovely loft.
Yeah, it's great how musicianshave a little nook.
This is where all the creativestuff goes on.
Mark (01:06):
Yeah, it's kind of my happy place where I come up with
ideas and got all my CDs there.
I've got a load of vinyldownstairs in another room.
Geoff (01:14):
So can we start talking a bit about your background?
How did you get started?
What turned you on to jazz inthe first place?
It was my dadwho turned me on to jazz.
He had a record collection and Ican remember when I was 12 or
13 waking up to the sound of mydad's record s.
Was he a musician?
No, he wasn't, but he'd alwaysloved jazz and he wanted to be a
(01:35):
drummer when he was a kid, buthe never did it, so he was
always playing records what sortof records are you talking
about?
When I was 10.
We lived in America and so mydad always wanted to learn the
sax.
He worked for IBM, so we allwent as a family to upstate New
York and my dad bought a sax.
He bought an alto and startedhaving lessons.
(01:57):
He must have been 38 orsomething, 39, maybe 40.
So I kind of thought, oh, thisis cool, and so I started to
learn the same instrument.
So my first teacher was aAmerican wind band guy and he
joined a record club while wewere out there.
So every couple of weeks he gotthese records coming through
the I love that idea of a recordclub.
(02:18):
I know record yeah, it wasbrilliant.
So I can vividly remember theserecords coming and they were
Wes Montgomery records, theywere Wes Montgomery records,
they were Paul Desmond recordswith Don Sebesky, you know late
60s things, you know and theywere the first jazz records that
I heard.
Were these records from thisAmerican record club.
Right.
And something happened.
(02:38):
Something happened and I justfell in love with the sound of
these records.
Did you start taking lessons?
I had my first saxophonelessons when I was 11 with this
American guy and then we cameback to England.
after a year of being in theStates.
My dad continued to play and Iplayed, got more and more into
it and I was in a band with mydad.
(03:00):
How cool was that.
Mark (03:01):
With this guy who was into Jerry Mulligan, who wanted to
arrange all the kind of sextetthings.
This guy had a band with my dadon tenor, me on alto, and that
was it.
That was my start and that'sthe only thing I ever wanted to
do, was to be a jazz musician.
Geoff (03:18):
And then did you study it ?
Did you go to college to studyjazz?
Mark (03:21):
Yeah, so I played a lot of gigs before I went to college,
you know kind of function gigsand things like that, all on the
south coast because I grew upin Portsmouth.
Then I went and studied TrinityCollege in London, classical
sax because I wanted to be inLondon
presumably because it wasn't ajazz course, right
There was only one, and that was in Leeds, Leeds yeah,
(03:42):
and I didn't want to go to Leeds.
I knew, I knew that I wanted tobe in London, yeah, uh, so I did
classical sax and it was kindof okay.
It was a bit weird, therepertoire.
You know, there isn't a lot ofclassical sax repertoire, that's
.
that's really interestingactually.
And then I met key people.
I met John Parcelli, I metDjango Bates.
We didn't have a bass player toplay within someone.
(04:04):
Simon Purcell was there in acouple of years above me.
He said oh, there's a guy whoworks on the Northern Line
who's a great bass player.
It was Nick Hudson.
Geoff (04:13):
I knew you were going to say Nick, yeah.
So Nick came.
He works on the Northern Line.
I know.
Mark (04:19):
So Nick came over to Trinity and we played.
We got this band together.
Me, Simon Cool, I got adrummer called Alan Rushton,
who's still around.
I think.
so.
I was playing with Simon andMick really early on.
Right, And then I met John andwe hooked up and then I met
Steve Berry.
This was all before Loose Tubes.
Geoff (04:40):
So I was going to say so.
This obviously led on to theformation of Loose Tubes.
Mark (04:43):
Yeah.
Geoff (04:44):
All these guys right, so this would have been like 80s,
was it yeah?
Mark (04:47):
early 80s, Right?
I can't quite remember.
I mean I left college in 83.
And so Loose Tubes must havebeen 84.
Right.
Or something like that.
So for people who don't knowLoose Tubes was, it was like a
collective, really, wasn't it?
Everyone was writing for it andeveryone, like a big band
(05:09):
really, wasn't it?
It was a big band set up by Graham Collier right as a
rehearsal band and we startedoff by playing Graham's music
and then Django and Steve Berrybrought some pieces in and they
were very different fromGraham's music.
Yeah so, and it was obvious,the band preferred that music.
So Graham gradually got kind ofousted out, you know, right
(05:30):
right, and then the band wastaken over as a cooperative, but
the main writers were Django,Steve Berry, Eddie Parker, Chris
Batchelor really.
I never wrote for it.
I really regret not writing.
Right.
I was always a bit intimidated,I think.
Right.
The level of the writing youknow,
Geoff (05:47):
But you must have learned .
from being in that band right,you learn a lot of skills that
you could use yourself right,
Mark (05:53):
I learned an awful lot, and soon after Loose Tubes
started I started my own band,you know.
So it was filtering in, but Inever quite had the confidence
to write anything for it,because the first piece Django
brought was just.
I remember it vividly.
It was so incredible, it was soformed and different from
(06:14):
everything else.
It was his sound world that hehad.
Geoff (06:19):
Did you have?
lessons in composition or inarranging or anything like that.
Mark (06:20):
No, I'm completely self-taught really.
I mean, I've studied a lot ofscores and listened a lot.
I think it's listening with methat you know I've never had
jazz lessons.
With hindsight, I'm quite gladI didn't go through jazz
education actually.
Yeah, because I think I've gotan angle on it, because I've had
to find it out like thearranging thing.
I mean, a lot of my writingcomes out of improvising, you
(06:42):
know finding it out and thenrealizing what the chord is,
kind of thing after after I'vedone it, you know,
Geoff (06:50):
Because sometimes you can have rules, can't you?
and then you just don't.
You don't want to break therules
Mark (06:53):
Exactly, and I think that can sometimes stifle creativity
a little bit.
You know, and for me theinspiration you think of the
Beatles or Radiohead.
You know they write intuitively, they don't sit down with rules
.
You know, and that's why themusic's so good yeah, yeah,
Geoff (07:06):
I guess that's what Loose tubes was about, right it was.
I remember seeing Loose Tubesin the 80s at Ronnie's.
I remember I'd never seenanything like it it was.
It certainly wasn't swing jazz.
It wasn't what I, what I knewto be as jazz, you know.
It was so something, somethingcompletely different
Mark (07:21):
yeah, that's interesting because I think at that time the
80s in London was reallyinteresting.
There was a lot of SouthAfrican music.
You know, doodoo put peoplelike that were all living in
London because of apartheid.
There was all that going on andwe were all really influenced
by that right and there seemedto be a lot of reggae.
I remember doing horn sectionswith Chris reggae, horn section
right and the trombonist in theband John Harborne, you know
(07:42):
we'd go off and do reggae hornsection right, and the
trombonist in the band, JohnHarborne, you know, we'd go off
and do reggae gigs, yeah, sothere was awful lot of
influences that were influencingthe jazz at that time, you know
.
Geoff (07:51):
Yeah, I remember there wasn't too much swing, actual
swing
there wasn't.
It was.
It was kind of grooves or loosethings.
There were a couple of swingthings, but they were kind of
pastiche actually.
Yeah, it's quite interesting.
I mean we used to listen toAmerican jazz on the bus.
That was what we were all intoyeah Ellington, yeah Jarrett.
I mean I remember there were acouple of pivotal albums that
came out that we were allobsessed by, and that was 80, 81
(08:15):
.
With Dewey Redman and Breckerand quite a free album actually
, isn't it that one?
yeah, it's quite uh, and I meanyou know unusual Pat record but
we all love that record right MySong, Keith Jarrett, all that
band, we were obsessed with thatrecord you know, there were
kind of certain records likethat yeah, Still Life
(08:36):
Talking actually a bit later on,yes really important
Because then of course in the 90s I remember there was a
bit of resurgence to um swinging, wasn't there?
I remember Winton and Branfordand all that sort of very heavy
kind of macho swinging thing,Josh Redman and those kind of
people came along.
Did that have any influence onyou at all?
Mark (08:58):
Yeah, I mean, I've always listened to swing music.
You know, Paul Desmond was areally early influence actually.
I just love the clarity of whathe did.
Geoff (09:06):
Well, the clarity is the thing that, as you're learning
as an improviser, is.
You want to try and absorb thatinformation, don't you?
Yeah, did you do transcribing?
Mark (09:16):
I've never been a massive transcriber.
I've done a bit of it.
I transcribed quite a lot ofWayne, Joe Henderson, Stan Getz,
Stan, I transcribed quite a lotof Wayne Joe Henderson, Stan
Getz, Stan Getz.
My dad had one of the Stan GetzPlays which is an early 50s
record, and I remember when Ifirst heard him play Stella by
Starlight I wasn't aware that ofwhere the improvising started
(09:40):
and where he'd finished playingthe head, because it was so
beautifully embellished from thebeginning and so personalised.
Yeah, and that was a massivething for me.
I thought, oh, I love that wayof playing.
I want to play like that.
Yeah yeah.
And I still, I mean whenever Ilisten to Getz, it kind of blows
me away really.
So, yeah, all these influences,I mean transcription is an
(10:01):
interesting one because it'sobviously important, but I think
my transcription was done byplaying along to records In my
front room at home with my mumcooking when I was a kid.
I must have driven her bonkersBecause there were a few things
I literally played along tohundreds of times.
Wow, there was a Phil Woodsrecord because I played alto in
(10:21):
those days, right and copyingsome of the things you heard,
yeah trying to copy Phil Woodsand there's loads of it.
I couldn't get near, yeah,because there's quite a lot of
language in it.
Some of it I got, but I pickedup on the feel and the sound and
all these things that you pickup subconsciously by listening.
So in a way that was mytranscription, more than sitting
(10:42):
down and writing out loads ofstuff.
Geoff (10:45):
Where did the composition start?
What were your early throwsinto composition?
Mark (10:49):
So I started writing for this band I mentioned with Simon
Purcell at Trinity.
I wrote a few tunes for that.
Those were my first tunes, butit didn't really take off until
Perfect Houseplants, really inthe 90s right,
Geoff (11:05):
Which was a quartet you led
Mark (11:07):
Is co-led Huw Warren.
Yeah yeah, and Dudley and DudleyPhillips and the three of us
wrote yeah, and Martin Francewas on drums yeah that was
really important from a writingpoint of view and also it was
kind of my first statement as aas an artist outside of yeah
outside of Loose Tubes and wewere lucky to have a deal with
(11:27):
Limb Records.
who paid for the records andgave us an advance?
I mean amazing, isn't it?
Yeah, you think about it nowand I'm really proud of those
records still.
I mean they sound slightly kindof wacky, but some great
writing and playing on them sothat was important.
Geoff (11:42):
And then, much later, you progressed to a big band,
didn't you?
I know that record that you putout The Days on Earth album.
Mark (11:47):
You, that's with an orchestra.
That's a lot later.
That was only about six yearsago the biggest project you've
done before yeah, that was thebiggest thing that I've.
I've undertaken
Geoff (12:00):
Did you write everything an an orchestrate it yourself?
Mark (12:02):
yeah, and it was the first thing that I've undertaken.
Did you write everything for itand orchestrate it yourself?
Yeah, and it was the first timeI'd written for strings, so I
had to learn how to do that, butit was brilliant and we booked
I booked British Grove and didit there.
So, wow, what a thrill.
Eh, the sound is great.
Geoff (12:15):
How many strings did you have?
Mark (12:17):
We had probably about 20 strings.
It was quite a healthy amount,but my first album under my own
name was partly orchestral.
It wasn't as big, it was 12people a 12-piece band with
people like Roland Sutherland,Henry Lowther's on it,
Houseplant's rhythm section.
So that was important, thatrecord.
(12:39):
It was my first debut albumunder my own name and it was a
12-piece band, which was a bitsilly, commercially.
Geoff (12:45):
In terms of a writer, though, expanding it from a
quartet to 12 is a massive thing, isn't it?
Mark (12:49):
Yeah, and I learnt a lot actually with that band and we
had French horn in it, we had,you know, Jim Rattigan was in it
and trumpets woodwind ,woodwind, and it's something
I've always really beeninterested in orchestration.
Geoff (13:06):
So you've had a bit of experience playing in the sort
of contemporary classical worldas well.
You worked with Mark- AnthonyTurnage a bit, didn't you?
Mark (13:11):
Yeah, and I'm quite glad that I was classically trained
in a way, in some ways in termsof slotting into things, I met
Mark in Tunbridge Wells becauseI lived in Tunbridge Wells for a
bit and we got to know eachother and we taught music and we
had brilliant.
He's got some brilliant storiesabout meeting.
Leonard Bernstein.
So he said one day yeah, I'mwriting this piece, do you want
(13:32):
to play in it?
I think it was called AboutWater and it had John Patitucci
was playing in it and, Gwilym,he'd written a sax concerto for
Joe Lovano and Joe Lovanocouldn't do it, so he asked me
to do it which is very nice howmuch improvising was in that
there was a bit actually in theJoe Lovano thing there was quite
a bit did his writing givespace for improvising or was it
(13:54):
a lot through composed?
yeah, I mean, most of it'swritten, but there is an element
, a healthy element, ofimprovising.
And then I was lucky enough towork with him three or four
times more.
We did his op, we wrote anopera for The Opera House and he
scored it for two sopranos, wow.
So there was me and MartinRobertson getting roasted in the
(14:17):
pit, god, and Pete Erskine wasplaying drums.
You know, it was a niceexperience, amazing, you know.
And again, I was influenced byhis, uh, orchestration.
You know, I remember sitting inthe pit at The Opera House
making a note of all the bitsthat I really wanted to check
out on the score.
Yeah, yeah which I did.
Later on, he sent me the scoreand I was yeah, that's how you
(14:39):
write, like that, you know?
Geoff (14:40):
yeah, just the voicings and things.
Mark (14:42):
Voicings.
Geoff (14:42):
Combining instruments and things like that.
Mark (14:44):
Yeah, voicings and ranges of things.
The sweet spot of an instrumentwhich I'm still learning a lot
about.
Geoff (14:52):
Yeah, I did a similar thing actually when I started
writing.
I've written quite a few thingsfor string quartets.
Mark (14:58):
Have you.
Geoff (15:04):
Yeah, and I studied a brilliant album by Elvis
Costello.
He made an album with, with theBrodsky Quartet, quartet which I
don't know, it's just genius,right, it's called the Juliet
Letters, so it's all um throughcomposed, uh, string quartet and
voice, oh right, and some ofthe sound that comes from the
string quartet is just, yeah, itsounds like an orchestra.
It's incredible, double stops,all sorts of different flavours
that strings can make.
(15:25):
I did exactly the same thing.
I went through and listened toit.
Oh, that bit.
How did he do that?
I got the score.
Extracting those littleelements from a score is really
important, isn't it?
Mark (15:34):
Yeah, I mean with Houseplants, actually the kind
of crossover thing startedbecause we worked with an early
music group called The OrlandoConsort so we all wrote for that
.
You know that was interesting.
Even though it was voices itwas still really good training,
you know, for me, using modal,old modal, plain chant and
(15:58):
trying to make it into a jazzthing, you know.
So all these experiences havebeen massive learning curves for
me
Geoff (16:13):
Can we talk a little bit about standards, about jazz
standards, and what part that'splayed on your development
Ever since I could remember Iplayed standards.
Interesting enough, I've neverrecorded standards yet, but I do
intend to do the record at somepoint.
I've never recorded standardson.
I've done lots of records of myown.
But and why is that?
I think it's partly because Ihaven't felt like I've got much
(16:37):
to offer in that.
Because there's so many greatversions of things you know.
I mean, if I think of a tunelike Green Dolphin Street,
there's Rollins, there's you.
Because there's so many greatversions of things you know.
I mean, if I think of a tunelike Green Dolphin Street,
there's Rollins, there's, youknow, there's loads of versions
there's all these versions thatimmediately, unless I've got a
real angle on it, right.
but for me I mean just leavingaside.
I haven't recorded anything yetof my own playing standards
(16:59):
Until today.
Until today, it's always beenmy point of reference with
everything in terms of mepractising improvising.
So I sit up here and I playstandards for hours.
That's so interesting, but you don't record them.
Mark (17:14):
I don't really know what I do.
I just make another version ofsomething without having a
concept.
It's a bit like that, that'skind of what's stopping me.
Yeah, but occasionally I just Ithink, and Libby, my wife says
why don't you make a standardrecord?
Occasionally I think, oh I, Ican hear something, maybe I
should
Geoff (17:32):
You know what you should do?
You should do like the LeeKonitz thing and write some
contra facts.
Want some?
Yeah, maybe tunes on on onstandard changes.
Mark (17:40):
But I probably wouldn't want to do that because I love
the original tune.
So there's that, right, but asa vehicle for practicing the way
I improvise yeah, standards, aquarter it.
Yeah.
And what I try and do, what Iset out to do when I put play
around a sequence, is I justwant to play.
(18:01):
When I put play around asequence, is I just want to play
, like me, you know.
Yeah, I want to leave all thethings that I've got behind, all
the influences, because if I'mnot careful, there's so many
versions that I know intimately,it almost feels disrespectful
to me to try and copy that,which is probably you wouldn't
consciously be copying it though, would you?
I don't know.
Geoff (18:21):
Let's find out, shall we?
Well, I mean, would you I don'tknow let's find out, shall we?
Mark (18:23):
Well, I mean, you know, I don't know.
It's a complicated relationshipwith standards.
Geoff (18:30):
It is.
It's so interesting,
Mark (18:32):
yeah, but when, like we did a gig the other day and I
loved playing the standards weplayed, you know.
And people say oh, you soundgreat on standards, you know.
Yeah.
I probably should just get overit and go in and record
something with some nicemusicians and bring something
out.
Geoff (18:46):
you know Well, the whole thing about bringing something
out nowadays is you could have aBand camp page and you could
record something here and put itout, couldn't you?
I?
Mark (18:56):
know it's totally.
Geoff (18:58):
You know, the whole concept of putting something out
has kind of lost its meaning insome respects, don't you think?
Mark (19:05):
yeah, I do.
I think it's the industry'sjust like completely in a
different place now and I don'tI kind of worry about it really
how people are going to makecreative music you know, do you
make actual physical CDs anymore?
I yeah, and I'm about to do anew album and I'm going to do
vinyl as well.
(19:26):
But it's a big financial riskit is.
Yeah, I mean I've already spent, you know, about three or four
thousand quid on this record,and it's only a trio, so I don't
know.
Geoff (19:39):
It becomes a passion project, doesn't it?
It becomes a vanity project, ora passion project, but that's
what we do.
That's what we do.
And often there's a kind of,not a reward, but you get back
your investment in a way fromsomething, either gigs, or some
(20:01):
award, or something, or asituation you know, a situation
that you wouldn't have got inwithout it.
Yeah.
Mark (20:07):
So I've always seen it like long-term, you know,
investing in your own music andnot expecting anything.
Geoff (20:15):
But you're a sideman as well.
You do some other people'sprojects and do sessions and
things like that.
Mark (20:20):
Yeah yeah, I do lots of different things.
I mean I do less sideman thingnow.
Geoff (20:26):
I noticed you've got keyed a gold disc from Radiohead
.
Mark (20:29):
They gave us that soon after it came out.
Geoff (20:31):
So three hundred thousand copies, yeah.
Mark (20:33):
Yeah, I think it's a lot more now it's a nice.
Geoff (20:35):
What did you do with them ?
Mark (20:37):
They just phoned up and they wanted some improvised
horns on The National Anthem,which is one of the tracks on it
.
They were about eight of us andwe went to their studio in
Abingdon, nothing was written,it was just improvised it was
improvised, yeah, well they.
They had a kind of line andThom York wanted a kind of um,
a Mingusy kind of feel right,kind of wild Mingusy feels on a
(20:58):
loose big band or something yeah, yeah, and so we just played.
They really liked the way itturned out and, um, we ended up
doing gigs with them.
We went to New York, Paris, andwe played on one tune.
Wow, you went all the way toNew York just to play on one
tune.
To play on one tune and doSaturday Night.
Live.
Wow, what a thrill it was.
Yeah, I mean it was slightlyfrustrating that we were only on
(21:18):
one tune.
Yeah, yeah, but no, it wasgreat.
It was a kind of bit of acareer highlight, that.
Yeah that yeah right.
Geoff (21:27):
So I asked you to pick a standard to play today.
Yeah, because we're here totalk a little bit about my apps
as well, which, um, I thinkyou're aware of those Geoff.
Yeah, well, I've made some I'venever heard of your apps, shut
up, I've made these apps.
Actually, actually, we just justrecorded volume five a couple
of weeks ago.
(21:47):
As we speak, which is in August2025, we have four volumes and
I asked you to pick a standard.
I know you love standards.
We've just been speaking aboutthat, yeah, um, what did you
pick?
Mark (22:01):
I picked.
It Could Happen To You.
That is one that I don't havethat many reference points other
than Chet Baker.
I like the harmony and the waythe tune kind of cadences.
There seems to be lots ofopportunities to cadence and
resolve.
Just the way it's put togetherkind of intrigues me and it also
(22:23):
never gets any easier.
There's something about it thatis always a challenge.
The cadencing's kind of twobars.
Interestingly enough, I can'tthink of that many versions off
hand.
I'm sure there are by saxophoneplayers, but it's a great tune.
Yeah, it's a great tune.
Geoff (22:40):
So that's what I've chosen fantastic, here we go,
here we go, here we go.
Thank you, uh, that's great.
(24:37):
Is there some things that youcould demonstrate about the way
some of the great sax playershave influenced?
Mark (24:42):
you.
There's certainly things I'veabsorbed about certain players.
Right, a lot of it isarticulation and feel.
Ok, you know, if you've got agood feel, people are going to
want to work with you.
Absorbed about certain players,you know a lot of it is is
articulation and feel.
Okay, you know, if you've got agood feel, people are going to
want to work with you.
And and the thing thatattracted me to Joe Henderson
was the feel kind ofarticulation.
And there's a blues on page one.
There's loads in it, so much init.
I transcribed it and there's somuch in it and it's um, you
(25:04):
know he does the phrases likethat kind of energy that he gets
in a few notes.
The point about him is to me hesounds like he's learnt bebop
but he's then gone anddeconstructed it in his own way.
Right, He'll come out with hisown language.
Almost there's so much bebop.
(25:25):
It's kind of disguised becausehe's deconstructed it all.
Geoff (25:29):
You hear that with any, any of the masters, don't you
they, you do their own thing,you know.
Mark (25:34):
Yeah, but there's one bit on on that page, one album on
the blues Homestretch.
Yeah, it's called Homestretch,it's in C.
Geoff (25:43):
I did it, did it.
Yeah.
Mark (25:51):
Something like that, and there's pentatonic-y things in
it and all kinds of things.
But there's one bit where hejust plays the diminished scale
and he starts it and teases itand then plays the whole, just
the whole diminished scale.
But it sounds so fantasticbecause it's so beautifully
articulated.
So he goes and then he does thewhole thing and it's just great
(26:17):
, you know, amazing.
I remember thinking that'sreally cool.
Geoff (26:20):
So what about some of the other masters, like Sonny
Rollins, for example?
What have you got from Sonny,in particular?
Mark (26:25):
I think the kind of boldness of Sonny Rollins, the
kind of experimentation of him,is so amazing.
I was listening to that SonnyMeets Hawk album the other day.
His playing is so weird on it.
But I think with him it's allabout rhythm and manipulating
shapes, you know, and motificthings.
You know so forcey things maybe, I don't know.
(26:57):
To me he uses a lot of thosethings triads maybe, and triads,
and of course he plays licks,but there is kind of own licks,
you know
Geoff (27:02):
And there are other saxophone players that have
inspired you and influenced you.
Do you think?
Mark (27:06):
Oh, so many people.
I mean Brecker.
I never tried to sound likeBrecker, but I love Michael
Brecker you know, from a soundpoint of view,
Geoff (27:16):
We're going back to the 80/81 album he's on now.
Mark (27:18):
Yeah, I mean, that's one of my favourite saxophone solos
of all time, on Every Day IThank You.
Yeah, it's ridiculous,saxophone playing yeah, right up
there there, I think withColtrane, you know.
I mean Coltrane was, is amassive influence on me, sound
wise.
I remember when I started out ontenor because I started on alto
(27:41):
when I changed to tenor mysound was kind of weedy and
closed at the top of theregister.
So it was a bit like this.
That's exaggeration.
It was a bit kind of weedy andclosed at the top of the
register, so it was a bit likethis.
That's exaggeration.
It was a bit kind of and I justremember playing along to
ballads, a couple of days ofjust playing along to those
tunes and something happened inmy throat embouchure.
(28:05):
All of a sudden I could play alittle bit like the upper range
of John Coltrane.
So instead of it was like thatopen thing.
Yeah, the lesson for me, thereally important lesson, was I
(28:27):
didn't really know what I wasdoing.
I was just imitating the sound,adjusting your breath control,
yeah, and throat and the musclesand relaxing, but no one could
teach me how to do that.
The only way I could do that wasto imitate.
Listening yeah, listening andcopy it.
I say that to students.
If you want to discoversomething like that, imitation
(28:50):
is the best way.
Geoff (28:57):
Right.
So to finish off, I've got afew questions for you.
Mark (29:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (29:01):
First question is what's your favourite album?
Mark (29:04):
I did a thing recently for Jazzwise, where they they said
you know what's your most, thealbum that influenced you most,
and I chose Atlantis from WayneShorter, because that was a
pivotal album for writing for meand playing, but particularly
writing when I heard that in the80s.
Geoff (29:21):
Now, that was a very, quite electronic thing.
That's 80s, lots of synths.
Yeah, it's a very dense harmony.
Yeah, a really weird.
That's the one with.
Endangered Species and the ThreeMarias on it.
Yeah, yeah, those great, greattracks.
Mark (29:34):
I mean it's not the best album, but something resonated.
You know I mean Kind of Blue.
I'm scared to listen to Kind ofBlue because it's such a
masterpiece.
It's a bit of a cliche foreveryone to say that.
But everyone does say that yeah.
But then you know there'sindividualism with Gill Evans.
That, I think, is right upthere you know, which is a
(29:54):
strange album with lots of crazyedits, and so there's so many,
so many records it's a hard one,isn't?
It Steely Dan you know, Aja.
Geoff (30:03):
I think is an incredible album.
Mark (30:04):
I think there's some incredible album.
I think there's some StevieWonder records, that October
Road by James Taylor.
You know, there's just so many.
Geoff (30:13):
Is there a favourite musician, alive or dead, that
you would like to have playedwith or play with?
Mark (30:20):
Yeah, Paul Simon.
OK, I'd love to play with PaulSimon, yeah.
That would be my dream gig,amazing.
Geoff (30:28):
Which period of Paul Simon are you particularly drawn
to?
Mark (30:33):
I think, Still Crazy After All These Years, and then,
right up to Graceland, even thelater records there's something
interesting, the one that BrianEno produced.
Geoff (30:45):
There's always something interesting in his music you may
have already said this, butwhat would you consider the
highlight of your career so far?
Mark (30:53):
I don't know.
There's things that I'm mostproud of.
I think Days on Earth, theorchestral record.
I can listen to that withoutany cringing.
Really Well, there's a bit ofcringing, but that was such a
big part of working towardssomething and I invested so much
in my creativity and thingsinto that.
(31:13):
In terms of gigs, so manyhighlights with Loose Tubes and
Polar Bear.
Geoff (31:18):
I mean, when you get to our age, we're kind of lucky
that we're still doing it really.
Mark (31:23):
You wake up and think, oh, this is good.
I'm still in the game.
Geoff (31:26):
Yeah, what was the last concert you attended?
Mark (31:30):
I think it might have been the Vortex.
Liam play Liam Noble.
Oh God, I can't remember.
I'd have to look in my diary.
It's a bit of a busman'sholiday, isn't it going?
Geoff (31:41):
to gigs sometimes that's fine.
The Vortex is a good one.
Oh no, it was the 606.
Mark (31:47):
I went to see Trish Clowe playing with Nikki Iles.
That was about two weeks ago.
Geoff (31:53):
Excellent.
Oh yeah, what wouldyou say, was your musical
weakness
Mark (31:58):
My ears.
I always want my ears to bebetter than they are.
When I listen to someone likeKeith Jarrett, I just realise
that the connection is reallyfast between what he hears and
what comes out on the instrument.
Geoff (32:11):
I mean, he just has an endless flow of creativity,
doesn't he?
And not everyone has that.
You know it's a hard thing toattain.
Mark (32:24):
But I think it's the brain connection, brain-ear
connection, that it's not rapidwith me, which it's not always a
good thing to.
You know, people with perfectpitch they struggle, don't they?
Geoff (32:30):
yeah, it's not.
Sometimes perfect pitch couldbe a bit of a curse, can't it?
You know, it's all right.
Mark (32:35):
It's great that you can hear everything, but yeah, and
the older I get, the more Irealize that you know the things
you can't do are as importantas the things you can do.
In terms of what you do withmusic theologianious Monk, for
instance.
You know there's loads ofthings he couldn't do, but what
he did do with what he could dowas amazing.
I've kind of learned thatthat's worth doing.
Geoff (32:57):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
?
Mark (32:59):
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, Well, I'm out of mycomfort zone.
I did a prom on Friday with anorchestra and I had to really
concentrate and I was readingand I was nervous, yeah.
Geoff (33:12):
It was all right in the end.
Did that affect yourperformance?
Do you think your nerves, ordid it heighten your attention?
Mark (33:19):
I think it does affect my performance sometimes if I'm not
careful, but I've got better atcoping with nerves.
I sometimes have memory.
AWOL wall moments, but let meall do yeah when you're doing
things without music.
Geoff (33:33):
Yeah, but clearly that was all written, right?
Mark (33:36):
it was all written.
It was more about following theconductor and playing in the
right place and playing in theorchestra and all that.
So yeah, I still get nervous,but not very much now.
Geoff (33:49):
What's your favorite sandwich?
Mark (33:51):
Favorite sandwich's cheese and pickle great.
I think cheese and picklescan't beat cheese and pickle um,
what about a favorite movie?
Geoff (34:02):
What?
about a favourite movie.
Mark (34:04):
Favourite movie, it would probably be a Coen Brothers film
.
Geoff (34:08):
Okay, one of those Black comedy.
You like all that sort of Fargoand all that stuff, oh yeah.
Mark (34:14):
Yeah, brilliant.
Yeah, yeah, love all that.
Geoff (34:17):
Favourite venue to play in.
Mark (34:18):
I like the QEH.
I like that kind of sizetheatre.
It's nice.
Geoff (34:24):
I'd go for the QEH Therese Theatre.
It's nice, I'd go for the QEH.
So your prom was at the AlbertHall, was it?
Prom was at the Albert Hall.
Mark (34:29):
yeah, that's a great place to play, isn't it?
Yeah, it is amazing, yeah.
Geoff (34:33):
What about favourite country?
Do you travel a lot?
Do you go to many places?
I go to Ireland quite a lotInteresting Because of my wife.
I like going there.
I love Italy.
I've been to Italy recentlydoing gigs.
That's always lovely goingthere.
I love travelling and I've gota real fondness for America
(34:54):
because of that year that I hadas a kid there and I'm quite
defensive with America.
You know people start slaggingit off and saying everyone's a
moron.
You know it's a wonderful,wonderful country.
Did you see much of America, moron?
You know it's like it's awonderful, wonderful country.
Mark (35:07):
Did you see much of america?
Have you been across across it?
I've never been to the West.
I've done quite a lot of thingson the east coast in midwest
Chicago.
I know very well
America's amazing, though,isn't it.
It's like five countries in one, though, isn't it?
yeah, depending on where you go, it's an amazing place
and, you know, the home of ourmusic.
Geoff (35:24):
So one last question what's your favorite chord?
Mark (35:28):
As soon as I left college I was in this band with Steve
Berry, with John Paracelli andSteve and a drummer, and he used
to write really complicatedchords to me like.
I remember E over F was one ofhis things no E slash F, and I
still don't quite know what todo on that.
But he, he would have to comeover and write the scales in of
(35:48):
the chords.
All right for me and John.
You know, I didn't know what Iwas doing, maybe John knew a bit
better than I did, but so butanyway, favorite chord.
I don't think you can beat aminor 11, really.
Geoff (35:59):
Yeah yeah, I think that's probably it.
Yeah, that's a good answer.
It's so rich.
Have you played Kenny Wheeler'smusic much a bit?
Yeah, right, okay, because heseems to have his own specific
sort of language, doesn't he?
lots of raised 11ths and things
Mark (36:16):
yeah, I love that music but I think it's got a lot of
challenges.
To be free on it very fewpeople aren't.
I think a lot people can get init.
You get in a kind of hamsterwheel of just playing related
scales.
I mean, he doesn't.
He seems to just sound amazingon it all.
But I love his music.
(36:36):
Yeah, I was lucky to work withhim once.
I only did one record with himand that was towards the end of
his life and that was like adream come true.
You know, to do something withKenny.
But yeah, I love his music.
It's very specific the harmony
Geoff (36:51):
You like that when you write your own music?
How specific are you with your,with your chord choices?
Mark (36:57):
I try not to be, because I it, for me, writing is all
about counterpoint.
It's all about the top and thebottom, bass treble, and then I
like to think what the chord is.
So I don't worry often, I don'tworry about what kind of chord
it is until I have the, the rootand the top, and when I'm
(37:20):
writing I don't even know whatit is, until I work it out later
.
Oh it's, it's so.
You're guided by the melody,guided by the melody and the
root, and I try and teach that.
I mean, it's just my personalmethod.
I try and teach that at theGuildhall when I go and do my
composition class, because theytend to clog things up very
(37:41):
quickly with loads of richharmony.
And the problem with that isyou've kind of you can neglect
the shape of the melody.
So when I was writing thatorchestral music that was really
important to me.
You know, I didn't get toobogged down in the harmony until
I knew exactly what the top andthe bottom were doing.
Geoff (37:58):
And then fill all the stuff out.
Mark (38:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Geoff (38:01):
Great Well, Mark, thank you so much for having me round
and for doing that.
That was a great fun.
It's been a pleasure.
Mark (38:07):
Geoff, yeah, I really enjoyed it and the app's
brilliant and thank you.
Good luck with it and it's.
It's been lovely to chat yeah,and catch up yeah, it's been
wonderful right.
Geoff (38:17):
Well, I'll see you very soon yeah, bye for now bye bye,
bye, bye, bye bye
Announcement (38:23):
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Please subscribe if you want tohear more of them as they land.
The Quartet jazz standardspodcast is a UK Music Apps
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Quartet quartet for ios, takingyour jazz play along to another
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Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here.
Today I'm in South London, inGreenwich, home of the Mean Time
, and I'm going to see a veryold friend, Mr Mark Lockheart,
who's a terrific tenor saxophoneplayer, I've known for a very
long time.
We're gonna have a little chatabout the origination of Loose
Tubes, playing in small andlarge ensembles, composition,
(00:25):
all sorts of tasty stuff.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:47):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS.
Taking your jazz play along toanother level,
Geoff (00:57):
Mark Lockheart, hello, hello.
Thanks for having me around
Mark (01:00):
Nice to see you Geoff
Geoff (01:01):
In your lovely loft.
Yeah, it's great how musicianshave a little nook.
This is where all the creativestuff goes on.
Mark (01:06):
Yeah, it's kind of my happy place where I come up with
ideas and got all my CDs there.
I've got a load of vinyldownstairs in another room.
Geoff (01:14):
So can we start talking a bit about your background?
How did you get started?
What turned you on to jazz inthe first place?
It was my dadwho turned me on to jazz.
He had a record collection and Ican remember when I was 12 or
13 waking up to the sound of mydad's record s.
Was he a musician?
No, he wasn't, but he'd alwaysloved jazz and he wanted to be a
(01:35):
drummer when he was a kid, buthe never did it, so he was
always playing records what sortof records are you talking
about?
When I was 10.
We lived in America and so mydad always wanted to learn the
sax.
He worked for IBM, so we allwent as a family to upstate New
York and my dad bought a sax.
He bought an alto and startedhaving lessons.
(01:57):
He must have been 38 orsomething, 39, maybe 40.
So I kind of thought, oh, thisis cool, and so I started to
learn the same instrument.
So my first teacher was aAmerican wind band guy and he
joined a record club while wewere out there.
So every couple of weeks he gotthese records coming through
the I love that idea of a recordclub.
(02:18):
I know record yeah, it wasbrilliant.
So I can vividly remember theserecords coming and they were
Wes Montgomery records, theywere Wes Montgomery records,
they were Paul Desmond recordswith Don Sebesky, you know late
60s things, you know and theywere the first jazz records that
I heard.
Were these records from thisAmerican record club.
Right.
And something happened.
(02:38):
Something happened and I justfell in love with the sound of
these records.
Did you start taking lessons?
I had my first saxophonelessons when I was 11 with this
American guy and then we cameback to England.
after a year of being in theStates.
My dad continued to play and Iplayed, got more and more into
it and I was in a band with mydad.
(03:00):
How cool was that.
Mark (03:01):
With this guy who was into Jerry Mulligan, who wanted to
arrange all the kind of sextetthings.
This guy had a band with my dadon tenor, me on alto, and that
was it.
That was my start and that'sthe only thing I ever wanted to
do, was to be a jazz musician.
Geoff (03:18):
And then did you study it ?
Did you go to college to studyjazz?
Mark (03:21):
Yeah, so I played a lot of gigs before I went to college,
you know kind of function gigsand things like that, all on the
south coast because I grew upin Portsmouth.
Then I went and studied TrinityCollege in London, classical
sax because I wanted to be inLondon
presumably because it wasn't ajazz course, right
There was only one, and that was in Leeds, Leeds yeah,
(03:42):
and I didn't want to go to Leeds.
I knew, I knew that I wanted tobe in London, yeah, uh, so I did
classical sax and it was kindof okay.
It was a bit weird, therepertoire.
You know, there isn't a lot ofclassical sax repertoire, that's
.
that's really interestingactually.
And then I met key people.
I met John Parcelli, I metDjango Bates.
We didn't have a bass player toplay within someone.
(04:04):
Simon Purcell was there in acouple of years above me.
He said oh, there's a guy whoworks on the Northern Line
who's a great bass player.
It was Nick Hudson.
Geoff (04:13):
I knew you were going to say Nick, yeah.
So Nick came.
He works on the Northern Line.
I know.
Mark (04:19):
So Nick came over to Trinity and we played.
We got this band together.
Me, Simon Cool, I got adrummer called Alan Rushton,
who's still around.
I think.
so.
I was playing with Simon andMick really early on.
Right, And then I met John andwe hooked up and then I met
Steve Berry.
This was all before Loose Tubes.
Geoff (04:40):
So I was going to say so.
This obviously led on to theformation of Loose Tubes.
Mark (04:43):
Yeah.
Geoff (04:44):
All these guys right, so this would have been like 80s,
was it yeah?
Mark (04:47):
early 80s, Right?
I can't quite remember.
I mean I left college in 83.
And so Loose Tubes must havebeen 84.
Right.
Or something like that.
So for people who don't knowLoose Tubes was, it was like a
collective, really, wasn't it?
Everyone was writing for it andeveryone, like a big band
(05:09):
really, wasn't it?
It was a big band set up by Graham Collier right as a
rehearsal band and we startedoff by playing Graham's music
and then Django and Steve Berrybrought some pieces in and they
were very different fromGraham's music.
Yeah so, and it was obvious,the band preferred that music.
So Graham gradually got kind ofousted out, you know, right
(05:30):
right, and then the band wastaken over as a cooperative, but
the main writers were Django,Steve Berry, Eddie Parker, Chris
Batchelor really.
I never wrote for it.
I really regret not writing.
Right.
I was always a bit intimidated,I think.
Right.
The level of the writing youknow,
Geoff (05:47):
But you must have learned .
from being in that band right,you learn a lot of skills that
you could use yourself right,
Mark (05:53):
I learned an awful lot, and soon after Loose Tubes
started I started my own band,you know.
So it was filtering in, but Inever quite had the confidence
to write anything for it,because the first piece Django
brought was just.
I remember it vividly.
It was so incredible, it was soformed and different from
(06:14):
everything else.
It was his sound world that hehad.
Geoff (06:19):
Did you have?
lessons in composition or inarranging or anything like that.
Mark (06:20):
No, I'm completely self-taught really.
I mean, I've studied a lot ofscores and listened a lot.
I think it's listening with methat you know I've never had
jazz lessons.
With hindsight, I'm quite gladI didn't go through jazz
education actually.
Yeah, because I think I've gotan angle on it, because I've had
to find it out like thearranging thing.
I mean, a lot of my writingcomes out of improvising, you
(06:42):
know finding it out and thenrealizing what the chord is,
kind of thing after after I'vedone it, you know,
Geoff (06:50):
Because sometimes you can have rules, can't you?
and then you just don't.
You don't want to break therules
Mark (06:53):
Exactly, and I think that can sometimes stifle creativity
a little bit.
You know, and for me theinspiration you think of the
Beatles or Radiohead.
You know they write intuitively, they don't sit down with rules
.
You know, and that's why themusic's so good yeah, yeah,
Geoff (07:06):
I guess that's what Loose tubes was about, right it was.
I remember seeing Loose Tubesin the 80s at Ronnie's.
I remember I'd never seenanything like it it was.
It certainly wasn't swing jazz.
It wasn't what I, what I knewto be as jazz, you know.
It was so something, somethingcompletely different
Mark (07:21):
yeah, that's interesting because I think at that time the
80s in London was reallyinteresting.
There was a lot of SouthAfrican music.
You know, doodoo put peoplelike that were all living in
London because of apartheid.
There was all that going on andwe were all really influenced
by that right and there seemedto be a lot of reggae.
I remember doing horn sectionswith Chris reggae, horn section
right and the trombonist in theband John Harborne, you know
(07:42):
we'd go off and do reggae hornsection right, and the
trombonist in the band, JohnHarborne, you know, we'd go off
and do reggae gigs, yeah, sothere was awful lot of
influences that were influencingthe jazz at that time, you know
.
Geoff (07:51):
Yeah, I remember there wasn't too much swing, actual
swing
there wasn't.
It was.
It was kind of grooves or loosethings.
There were a couple of swingthings, but they were kind of
pastiche actually.
Yeah, it's quite interesting.
I mean we used to listen toAmerican jazz on the bus.
That was what we were all intoyeah Ellington, yeah Jarrett.
I mean I remember there were acouple of pivotal albums that
came out that we were allobsessed by, and that was 80, 81
(08:15):
.
With Dewey Redman and Breckerand quite a free album actually
, isn't it that one?
yeah, it's quite uh, and I meanyou know unusual Pat record but
we all love that record right MySong, Keith Jarrett, all that
band, we were obsessed with thatrecord you know, there were
kind of certain records likethat yeah, Still Life
(08:36):
Talking actually a bit later on,yes really important
Because then of course in the 90s I remember there was a
bit of resurgence to um swinging, wasn't there?
I remember Winton and Branfordand all that sort of very heavy
kind of macho swinging thing,Josh Redman and those kind of
people came along.
Did that have any influence onyou at all?
Mark (08:58):
Yeah, I mean, I've always listened to swing music.
You know, Paul Desmond was areally early influence actually.
I just love the clarity of whathe did.
Geoff (09:06):
Well, the clarity is the thing that, as you're learning
as an improviser, is.
You want to try and absorb thatinformation, don't you?
Yeah, did you do transcribing?
Mark (09:16):
I've never been a massive transcriber.
I've done a bit of it.
I transcribed quite a lot ofWayne, Joe Henderson, Stan Getz,
Stan, I transcribed quite a lotof Wayne Joe Henderson, Stan
Getz, Stan Getz.
My dad had one of the Stan GetzPlays which is an early 50s
record, and I remember when Ifirst heard him play Stella by
Starlight I wasn't aware that ofwhere the improvising started
(09:40):
and where he'd finished playingthe head, because it was so
beautifully embellished from thebeginning and so personalised.
Yeah, and that was a massivething for me.
I thought, oh, I love that wayof playing.
I want to play like that.
Yeah yeah.
And I still, I mean whenever Ilisten to Getz, it kind of blows
me away really.
So, yeah, all these influences,I mean transcription is an
(10:01):
interesting one because it'sobviously important, but I think
my transcription was done byplaying along to records In my
front room at home with my mumcooking when I was a kid.
I must have driven her bonkersBecause there were a few things
I literally played along tohundreds of times.
Wow, there was a Phil Woodsrecord because I played alto in
(10:21):
those days, right and copyingsome of the things you heard,
yeah trying to copy Phil Woodsand there's loads of it.
I couldn't get near, yeah,because there's quite a lot of
language in it.
Some of it I got, but I pickedup on the feel and the sound and
all these things that you pickup subconsciously by listening.
So in a way that was mytranscription, more than sitting
(10:42):
down and writing out loads ofstuff.
Geoff (10:45):
Where did the composition start?
What were your early throwsinto composition?
Mark (10:49):
So I started writing for this band I mentioned with Simon
Purcell at Trinity.
I wrote a few tunes for that.
Those were my first tunes, butit didn't really take off until
Perfect Houseplants, really inthe 90s right,
Geoff (11:05):
Which was a quartet you led
Mark (11:07):
Is co-led Huw Warren.
Yeah yeah, and Dudley and DudleyPhillips and the three of us
wrote yeah, and Martin Francewas on drums yeah that was
really important from a writingpoint of view and also it was
kind of my first statement as aas an artist outside of yeah
outside of Loose Tubes and wewere lucky to have a deal with
(11:27):
Limb Records.
who paid for the records andgave us an advance?
I mean amazing, isn't it?
Yeah, you think about it nowand I'm really proud of those
records still.
I mean they sound slightly kindof wacky, but some great
writing and playing on them sothat was important.
Geoff (11:42):
And then, much later, you progressed to a big band,
didn't you?
I know that record that you putout The Days on Earth album.
Mark (11:47):
You, that's with an orchestra.
That's a lot later.
That was only about six yearsago the biggest project you've
done before yeah, that was thebiggest thing that I've.
I've undertaken
Geoff (12:00):
Did you write everything an an orchestrate it yourself?
Mark (12:02):
yeah, and it was the first thing that I've undertaken.
Did you write everything for itand orchestrate it yourself?
Yeah, and it was the first timeI'd written for strings, so I
had to learn how to do that, butit was brilliant and we booked
I booked British Grove and didit there.
So, wow, what a thrill.
Eh, the sound is great.
Geoff (12:15):
How many strings did you have?
Mark (12:17):
We had probably about 20 strings.
It was quite a healthy amount,but my first album under my own
name was partly orchestral.
It wasn't as big, it was 12people a 12-piece band with
people like Roland Sutherland,Henry Lowther's on it,
Houseplant's rhythm section.
So that was important, thatrecord.
(12:39):
It was my first debut albumunder my own name and it was a
12-piece band, which was a bitsilly, commercially.
Geoff (12:45):
In terms of a writer, though, expanding it from a
quartet to 12 is a massive thing, isn't it?
Mark (12:49):
Yeah, and I learnt a lot actually with that band and we
had French horn in it, we had,you know, Jim Rattigan was in it
and trumpets woodwind ,woodwind, and it's something
I've always really beeninterested in orchestration.
Geoff (13:06):
So you've had a bit of experience playing in the sort
of contemporary classical worldas well.
You worked with Mark- AnthonyTurnage a bit, didn't you?
Mark (13:11):
Yeah, and I'm quite glad that I was classically trained
in a way, in some ways in termsof slotting into things, I met
Mark in Tunbridge Wells becauseI lived in Tunbridge Wells for a
bit and we got to know eachother and we taught music and we
had brilliant.
He's got some brilliant storiesabout meeting.
Leonard Bernstein.
So he said one day yeah, I'mwriting this piece, do you want
(13:32):
to play in it?
I think it was called AboutWater and it had John Patitucci
was playing in it and, Gwilym,he'd written a sax concerto for
Joe Lovano and Joe Lovanocouldn't do it, so he asked me
to do it which is very nice howmuch improvising was in that
there was a bit actually in theJoe Lovano thing there was quite
a bit did his writing givespace for improvising or was it
(13:54):
a lot through composed?
yeah, I mean, most of it'swritten, but there is an element
, a healthy element, ofimprovising.
And then I was lucky enough towork with him three or four
times more.
We did his op, we wrote anopera for The Opera House and he
scored it for two sopranos, wow.
So there was me and MartinRobertson getting roasted in the
(14:17):
pit, god, and Pete Erskine wasplaying drums.
You know, it was a niceexperience, amazing, you know.
And again, I was influenced byhis, uh, orchestration.
You know, I remember sitting inthe pit at The Opera House
making a note of all the bitsthat I really wanted to check
out on the score.
Yeah, yeah which I did.
Later on, he sent me the scoreand I was yeah, that's how you
(14:39):
write, like that, you know?
Geoff (14:40):
yeah, just the voicings and things.
Mark (14:42):
Voicings.
Geoff (14:42):
Combining instruments and things like that.
Mark (14:44):
Yeah, voicings and ranges of things.
The sweet spot of an instrumentwhich I'm still learning a lot
about.
Geoff (14:52):
Yeah, I did a similar thing actually when I started
writing.
I've written quite a few thingsfor string quartets.
Mark (14:58):
Have you.
Geoff (15:04):
Yeah, and I studied a brilliant album by Elvis
Costello.
He made an album with, with theBrodsky Quartet, quartet which I
don't know, it's just genius,right, it's called the Juliet
Letters, so it's all um throughcomposed, uh, string quartet and
voice, oh right, and some ofthe sound that comes from the
string quartet is just, yeah, itsounds like an orchestra.
It's incredible, double stops,all sorts of different flavours
that strings can make.
(15:25):
I did exactly the same thing.
I went through and listened toit.
Oh, that bit.
How did he do that?
I got the score.
Extracting those littleelements from a score is really
important, isn't it?
Mark (15:34):
Yeah, I mean with Houseplants, actually the kind
of crossover thing startedbecause we worked with an early
music group called The OrlandoConsort so we all wrote for that
.
You know that was interesting.
Even though it was voices itwas still really good training,
you know, for me, using modal,old modal, plain chant and
(15:58):
trying to make it into a jazzthing, you know.
So all these experiences havebeen massive learning curves for
me
Geoff (16:13):
Can we talk a little bit about standards, about jazz
standards, and what part that'splayed on your development
Ever since I could remember Iplayed standards.
Interesting enough, I've neverrecorded standards yet, but I do
intend to do the record at somepoint.
I've never recorded standardson.
I've done lots of records of myown.
But and why is that?
I think it's partly because Ihaven't felt like I've got much
(16:37):
to offer in that.
Because there's so many greatversions of things you know.
I mean, if I think of a tunelike Green Dolphin Street,
there's Rollins, there's you.
Because there's so many greatversions of things you know.
I mean, if I think of a tunelike Green Dolphin Street,
there's Rollins, there's, youknow, there's loads of versions
there's all these versions thatimmediately, unless I've got a
real angle on it, right.
but for me I mean just leavingaside.
I haven't recorded anything yetof my own playing standards
(16:59):
Until today.
Until today, it's always beenmy point of reference with
everything in terms of mepractising improvising.
So I sit up here and I playstandards for hours.
That's so interesting, but you don't record them.
Mark (17:14):
I don't really know what I do.
I just make another version ofsomething without having a
concept.
It's a bit like that, that'skind of what's stopping me.
Yeah, but occasionally I just Ithink, and Libby, my wife says
why don't you make a standardrecord?
Occasionally I think, oh I, Ican hear something, maybe I
should
Geoff (17:32):
You know what you should do?
You should do like the LeeKonitz thing and write some
contra facts.
Want some?
Yeah, maybe tunes on on onstandard changes.
Mark (17:40):
But I probably wouldn't want to do that because I love
the original tune.
So there's that, right, but asa vehicle for practicing the way
I improvise yeah, standards, aquarter it.
Yeah.
And what I try and do, what Iset out to do when I put play
around a sequence, is I justwant to play.
(18:01):
When I put play around asequence, is I just want to play
, like me, you know.
Yeah, I want to leave all thethings that I've got behind, all
the influences, because if I'mnot careful, there's so many
versions that I know intimately,it almost feels disrespectful
to me to try and copy that,which is probably you wouldn't
consciously be copying it though, would you?
I don't know.
Geoff (18:21):
Let's find out, shall we?
Well, I mean, would you I don'tknow let's find out, shall we?
Mark (18:23):
Well, I mean, you know, I don't know.
It's a complicated relationshipwith standards.
Geoff (18:30):
It is.
It's so interesting,
Mark (18:32):
yeah, but when, like we did a gig the other day and I
loved playing the standards weplayed, you know.
And people say oh, you soundgreat on standards, you know.
Yeah.
I probably should just get overit and go in and record
something with some nicemusicians and bring something
out.
Geoff (18:46):
you know Well, the whole thing about bringing something
out nowadays is you could have aBand camp page and you could
record something here and put itout, couldn't you?
I?
Mark (18:56):
know it's totally.
Geoff (18:58):
You know, the whole concept of putting something out
has kind of lost its meaning insome respects, don't you think?
Mark (19:05):
yeah, I do.
I think it's the industry'sjust like completely in a
different place now and I don'tI kind of worry about it really
how people are going to makecreative music you know, do you
make actual physical CDs anymore?
I yeah, and I'm about to do anew album and I'm going to do
vinyl as well.
(19:26):
But it's a big financial riskit is.
Yeah, I mean I've already spent, you know, about three or four
thousand quid on this record,and it's only a trio, so I don't
know.
Geoff (19:39):
It becomes a passion project, doesn't it?
It becomes a vanity project, ora passion project, but that's
what we do.
That's what we do.
And often there's a kind of,not a reward, but you get back
your investment in a way fromsomething, either gigs, or some
(20:01):
award, or something, or asituation you know, a situation
that you wouldn't have got inwithout it.
Yeah.
Mark (20:07):
So I've always seen it like long-term, you know,
investing in your own music andnot expecting anything.
Geoff (20:15):
But you're a sideman as well.
You do some other people'sprojects and do sessions and
things like that.
Mark (20:20):
Yeah yeah, I do lots of different things.
I mean I do less sideman thingnow.
Geoff (20:26):
I noticed you've got keyed a gold disc from Radiohead
.
Mark (20:29):
They gave us that soon after it came out.
Geoff (20:31):
So three hundred thousand copies, yeah.
Mark (20:33):
Yeah, I think it's a lot more now it's a nice.
Geoff (20:35):
What did you do with them ?
Mark (20:37):
They just phoned up and they wanted some improvised
horns on The National Anthem,which is one of the tracks on it
.
They were about eight of us andwe went to their studio in
Abingdon, nothing was written,it was just improvised it was
improvised, yeah, well they.
They had a kind of line andThom York wanted a kind of um,
a Mingusy kind of feel right,kind of wild Mingusy feels on a
(20:58):
loose big band or something yeah, yeah, and so we just played.
They really liked the way itturned out and, um, we ended up
doing gigs with them.
We went to New York, Paris, andwe played on one tune.
Wow, you went all the way toNew York just to play on one
tune.
To play on one tune and doSaturday Night.
Live.
Wow, what a thrill it was.
Yeah, I mean it was slightlyfrustrating that we were only on
(21:18):
one tune.
Yeah, yeah, but no, it wasgreat.
It was a kind of bit of acareer highlight, that.
Yeah that yeah right.
Geoff (21:27):
So I asked you to pick a standard to play today.
Yeah, because we're here totalk a little bit about my apps
as well, which, um, I thinkyou're aware of those Geoff.
Yeah, well, I've made some I'venever heard of your apps, shut
up, I've made these apps.
Actually, actually, we just justrecorded volume five a couple
of weeks ago.
(21:47):
As we speak, which is in August2025, we have four volumes and
I asked you to pick a standard.
I know you love standards.
We've just been speaking aboutthat, yeah, um, what did you
pick?
Mark (22:01):
I picked.
It Could Happen To You.
That is one that I don't havethat many reference points other
than Chet Baker.
I like the harmony and the waythe tune kind of cadences.
There seems to be lots ofopportunities to cadence and
resolve.
Just the way it's put togetherkind of intrigues me and it also
(22:23):
never gets any easier.
There's something about it thatis always a challenge.
The cadencing's kind of twobars.
Interestingly enough, I can'tthink of that many versions off
hand.
I'm sure there are by saxophoneplayers, but it's a great tune.
Yeah, it's a great tune.
Geoff (22:40):
So that's what I've chosen fantastic, here we go,
here we go, here we go.
Thank you, uh, that's great.
(24:37):
Is there some things that youcould demonstrate about the way
some of the great sax playershave influenced?
Mark (24:42):
you.
There's certainly things I'veabsorbed about certain players.
Right, a lot of it isarticulation and feel.
Ok, you know, if you've got agood feel, people are going to
want to work with you.
Absorbed about certain players,you know a lot of it is is
articulation and feel.
Okay, you know, if you've got agood feel, people are going to
want to work with you.
And and the thing thatattracted me to Joe Henderson
was the feel kind ofarticulation.
And there's a blues on page one.
There's loads in it, so much init.
I transcribed it and there's somuch in it and it's um, you
(25:04):
know he does the phrases likethat kind of energy that he gets
in a few notes.
The point about him is to me hesounds like he's learnt bebop
but he's then gone anddeconstructed it in his own way.
Right, He'll come out with hisown language.
Almost there's so much bebop.
(25:25):
It's kind of disguised becausehe's deconstructed it all.
Geoff (25:29):
You hear that with any, any of the masters, don't you
they, you do their own thing,you know.
Mark (25:34):
Yeah, but there's one bit on on that page, one album on
the blues Homestretch.
Yeah, it's called Homestretch,it's in C.
Geoff (25:43):
I did it, did it.
Yeah.
Mark (25:51):
Something like that, and there's pentatonic-y things in
it and all kinds of things.
But there's one bit where hejust plays the diminished scale
and he starts it and teases itand then plays the whole, just
the whole diminished scale.
But it sounds so fantasticbecause it's so beautifully
articulated.
So he goes and then he does thewhole thing and it's just great
(26:17):
, you know, amazing.
I remember thinking that'sreally cool.
Geoff (26:20):
So what about some of the other masters, like Sonny
Rollins, for example?
What have you got from Sonny,in particular?
Mark (26:25):
I think the kind of boldness of Sonny Rollins, the
kind of experimentation of him,is so amazing.
I was listening to that SonnyMeets Hawk album the other day.
His playing is so weird on it.
But I think with him it's allabout rhythm and manipulating
shapes, you know, and motificthings.
You know so forcey things maybe, I don't know.
(26:57):
To me he uses a lot of thosethings triads maybe, and triads,
and of course he plays licks,but there is kind of own licks,
you know
Geoff (27:02):
And there are other saxophone players that have
inspired you and influenced you.
Do you think?
Mark (27:06):
Oh, so many people.
I mean Brecker.
I never tried to sound likeBrecker, but I love Michael
Brecker you know, from a soundpoint of view,
Geoff (27:16):
We're going back to the 80/81 album he's on now.
Mark (27:18):
Yeah, I mean, that's one of my favourite saxophone solos
of all time, on Every Day IThank You.
Yeah, it's ridiculous,saxophone playing yeah, right up
there there, I think withColtrane, you know.
I mean Coltrane was, is amassive influence on me, sound
wise.
I remember when I started out ontenor because I started on alto
(27:41):
when I changed to tenor mysound was kind of weedy and
closed at the top of theregister.
So it was a bit like this.
That's exaggeration.
It was a bit kind of weedy andclosed at the top of the
register, so it was a bit likethis.
That's exaggeration.
It was a bit kind of and I justremember playing along to
ballads, a couple of days ofjust playing along to those
tunes and something happened inmy throat embouchure.
(28:05):
All of a sudden I could play alittle bit like the upper range
of John Coltrane.
So instead of it was like thatopen thing.
Yeah, the lesson for me, thereally important lesson, was I
(28:27):
didn't really know what I wasdoing.
I was just imitating the sound,adjusting your breath control,
yeah, and throat and the musclesand relaxing, but no one could
teach me how to do that.
The only way I could do that wasto imitate.
Listening yeah, listening andcopy it.
I say that to students.
If you want to discoversomething like that, imitation
(28:50):
is the best way.
Geoff (28:57):
Right.
So to finish off, I've got afew questions for you.
Mark (29:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Geoff (29:01):
First question is what's your favourite album?
Mark (29:04):
I did a thing recently for Jazzwise, where they they said
you know what's your most, thealbum that influenced you most,
and I chose Atlantis from WayneShorter, because that was a
pivotal album for writing for meand playing, but particularly
writing when I heard that in the80s.
Geoff (29:21):
Now, that was a very, quite electronic thing.
That's 80s, lots of synths.
Yeah, it's a very dense harmony.
Yeah, a really weird.
That's the one with.
Endangered Species and the ThreeMarias on it.
Yeah, yeah, those great, greattracks.
Mark (29:34):
I mean it's not the best album, but something resonated.
You know I mean Kind of Blue.
I'm scared to listen to Kind ofBlue because it's such a
masterpiece.
It's a bit of a cliche foreveryone to say that.
But everyone does say that yeah.
But then you know there'sindividualism with Gill Evans.
That, I think, is right upthere you know, which is a
(29:54):
strange album with lots of crazyedits, and so there's so many,
so many records it's a hard one,isn't?
It Steely Dan you know, Aja.
Geoff (30:03):
I think is an incredible album.
Mark (30:04):
I think there's some incredible album.
I think there's some StevieWonder records, that October
Road by James Taylor.
You know, there's just so many.
Geoff (30:13):
Is there a favourite musician, alive or dead, that
you would like to have playedwith or play with?
Mark (30:20):
Yeah, Paul Simon.
OK, I'd love to play with PaulSimon, yeah.
That would be my dream gig,amazing.
Geoff (30:28):
Which period of Paul Simon are you particularly drawn
to?
Mark (30:33):
I think, Still Crazy After All These Years, and then,
right up to Graceland, even thelater records there's something
interesting, the one that BrianEno produced.
Geoff (30:45):
There's always something interesting in his music you may
have already said this, butwhat would you consider the
highlight of your career so far?
Mark (30:53):
I don't know.
There's things that I'm mostproud of.
I think Days on Earth, theorchestral record.
I can listen to that withoutany cringing.
Really Well, there's a bit ofcringing, but that was such a
big part of working towardssomething and I invested so much
in my creativity and thingsinto that.
(31:13):
In terms of gigs, so manyhighlights with Loose Tubes and
Polar Bear.
Geoff (31:18):
I mean, when you get to our age, we're kind of lucky
that we're still doing it really.
Mark (31:23):
You wake up and think, oh, this is good.
I'm still in the game.
Geoff (31:26):
Yeah, what was the last concert you attended?
Mark (31:30):
I think it might have been the Vortex.
Liam play Liam Noble.
Oh God, I can't remember.
I'd have to look in my diary.
It's a bit of a busman'sholiday, isn't it going?
Geoff (31:41):
to gigs sometimes that's fine.
The Vortex is a good one.
Oh no, it was the 606.
Mark (31:47):
I went to see Trish Clowe playing with Nikki Iles.
That was about two weeks ago.
Geoff (31:53):
Excellent.
Oh yeah, what wouldyou say, was your musical
weakness
Mark (31:58):
My ears.
I always want my ears to bebetter than they are.
When I listen to someone likeKeith Jarrett, I just realise
that the connection is reallyfast between what he hears and
what comes out on the instrument.
Geoff (32:11):
I mean, he just has an endless flow of creativity,
doesn't he?
And not everyone has that.
You know it's a hard thing toattain.
Mark (32:24):
But I think it's the brain connection, brain-ear
connection, that it's not rapidwith me, which it's not always a
good thing to.
You know, people with perfectpitch they struggle, don't they?
Geoff (32:30):
yeah, it's not.
Sometimes perfect pitch couldbe a bit of a curse, can't it?
You know, it's all right.
Mark (32:35):
It's great that you can hear everything, but yeah, and
the older I get, the more Irealize that you know the things
you can't do are as importantas the things you can do.
In terms of what you do withmusic theologianious Monk, for
instance.
You know there's loads ofthings he couldn't do, but what
he did do with what he could dowas amazing.
I've kind of learned thatthat's worth doing.
Geoff (32:57):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
?
Mark (32:59):
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, Well, I'm out of mycomfort zone.
I did a prom on Friday with anorchestra and I had to really
concentrate and I was readingand I was nervous, yeah.
Geoff (33:12):
It was all right in the end.
Did that affect yourperformance?
Do you think your nerves, ordid it heighten your attention?
Mark (33:19):
I think it does affect my performance sometimes if I'm not
careful, but I've got better atcoping with nerves.
I sometimes have memory.
AWOL wall moments, but let meall do yeah when you're doing
things without music.
Geoff (33:33):
Yeah, but clearly that was all written, right?
Mark (33:36):
it was all written.
It was more about following theconductor and playing in the
right place and playing in theorchestra and all that.
So yeah, I still get nervous,but not very much now.
Geoff (33:49):
What's your favorite sandwich?
Mark (33:51):
Favorite sandwich's cheese and pickle great.
I think cheese and picklescan't beat cheese and pickle um,
what about a favorite movie?
Geoff (34:02):
What?
about a favourite movie.
Mark (34:04):
Favourite movie, it would probably be a Coen Brothers film
.
Geoff (34:08):
Okay, one of those Black comedy.
You like all that sort of Fargoand all that stuff, oh yeah.
Mark (34:14):
Yeah, brilliant.
Yeah, yeah, love all that.
Geoff (34:17):
Favourite venue to play in.
Mark (34:18):
I like the QEH.
I like that kind of sizetheatre.
It's nice.
Geoff (34:24):
I'd go for the QEH Therese Theatre.
It's nice, I'd go for the QEH.
So your prom was at the AlbertHall, was it?
Prom was at the Albert Hall.
Mark (34:29):
yeah, that's a great place to play, isn't it?
Yeah, it is amazing, yeah.
Geoff (34:33):
What about favourite country?
Do you travel a lot?
Do you go to many places?
I go to Ireland quite a lotInteresting Because of my wife.
I like going there.
I love Italy.
I've been to Italy recentlydoing gigs.
That's always lovely goingthere.
I love travelling and I've gota real fondness for America
(34:54):
because of that year that I hadas a kid there and I'm quite
defensive with America.
You know people start slaggingit off and saying everyone's a
moron.
You know it's a wonderful,wonderful country.
Did you see much of America, moron?
You know it's like it's awonderful, wonderful country.
Mark (35:07):
Did you see much of america?
Have you been across across it?
I've never been to the West.
I've done quite a lot of thingson the east coast in midwest
Chicago.
I know very well
America's amazing, though,isn't it.
It's like five countries in one, though, isn't it?
yeah, depending on where you go, it's an amazing place
and, you know, the home of ourmusic.
Geoff (35:24):
So one last question what's your favorite chord?
Mark (35:28):
As soon as I left college I was in this band with Steve
Berry, with John Paracelli andSteve and a drummer, and he used
to write really complicatedchords to me like.
I remember E over F was one ofhis things no E slash F, and I
still don't quite know what todo on that.
But he, he would have to comeover and write the scales in of
(35:48):
the chords.
All right for me and John.
You know, I didn't know what Iwas doing, maybe John knew a bit
better than I did, but so butanyway, favorite chord.
I don't think you can beat aminor 11, really.
Geoff (35:59):
Yeah yeah, I think that's probably it.
Yeah, that's a good answer.
It's so rich.
Have you played Kenny Wheeler'smusic much a bit?
Yeah, right, okay, because heseems to have his own specific
sort of language, doesn't he?
lots of raised 11ths and things
Mark (36:16):
yeah, I love that music but I think it's got a lot of
challenges.
To be free on it very fewpeople aren't.
I think a lot people can get init.
You get in a kind of hamsterwheel of just playing related
scales.
I mean, he doesn't.
He seems to just sound amazingon it all.
But I love his music.
(36:36):
Yeah, I was lucky to work withhim once.
I only did one record with himand that was towards the end of
his life and that was like adream come true.
You know, to do something withKenny.
But yeah, I love his music.
It's very specific the harmony
Geoff (36:51):
You like that when you write your own music?
How specific are you with your,with your chord choices?
Mark (36:57):
I try not to be, because I it, for me, writing is all
about counterpoint.
It's all about the top and thebottom, bass treble, and then I
like to think what the chord is.
So I don't worry often, I don'tworry about what kind of chord
it is until I have the, the rootand the top, and when I'm
(37:20):
writing I don't even know whatit is, until I work it out later
.
Oh it's, it's so.
You're guided by the melody,guided by the melody and the
root, and I try and teach that.
I mean, it's just my personalmethod.
I try and teach that at theGuildhall when I go and do my
composition class, because theytend to clog things up very
(37:41):
quickly with loads of richharmony.
And the problem with that isyou've kind of you can neglect
the shape of the melody.
So when I was writing thatorchestral music that was really
important to me.
You know, I didn't get toobogged down in the harmony until
I knew exactly what the top andthe bottom were doing.
Geoff (37:58):
And then fill all the stuff out.
Mark (38:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Geoff (38:01):
Great Well, Mark, thank you so much for having me round
and for doing that.
That was a great fun.
It's been a pleasure.
Mark (38:07):
Geoff, yeah, I really enjoyed it and the app's
brilliant and thank you.
Good luck with it and it's.
It's been lovely to chat yeah,and catch up yeah, it's been
wonderful right.
Geoff (38:17):
Well, I'll see you very soon yeah, bye for now bye bye,
bye, bye, bye bye
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