September 5, 2025 • 46 mins
Geoff is in Finchley, North London to catch up with the wonderful saxophonist, flautist and composer Theo Travis.
Theo takes us on a captivating journey through his remarkable musical career, from classical beginnings to jazz excellence and groundbreaking prog rock collaborations. This conversation feels like eavesdropping on two musicians sharing secrets about their craft, filled with moments of genuine musical insight and discovery.
Theo reveals how his early musical path began with classical flute before teenage obsessions with T. Rex, David Bowie, and The Beatles led him toward improvisation. The pivotal moment came when a friend introduced him to John Coltrane's ‘Afro Blue Impressions’ (1963), igniting a passion for jazz that would shape his future. His methodical approach to learning improvisation through pattern books that forced him to transpose phrases through different keys built the foundation for his versatile playing style.
What makes this episode particularly fascinating is Theo’s ability to move seamlessly between musical worlds. A chance phone call from Japan bassist Mick Karn in 1997, opened the door to prog rock collaborations, leading to work with Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree and Robert Fripp of King Crimson. He describes how these experiences liberated him from conventional jazz forms, inspiring him to create music that transcends genre boundaries. His insights about the differences between jazz musicians' theoretical knowledge and rock musicians' instinctive creativity offer a refreshing perspective on artistic authenticity.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn when Theo introduces us to the duduk, an Armenian double-reed instrument with a haunting sound that he mastered during lockdown. His enthusiasm for this ancient instrument and how he's incorporated it into contemporary contexts demonstrates his ongoing musical curiosity.
Throughout the episode, Theo’s thoughtful reflections on memorable performances—like his completely improvised duo with Robert Fripp at Coventry Cathedral—reveal an artist who remains open to musical discovery. His performance of Chick Corea's 1970s standard ‘500 Miles High’ (accompanied by the trusted workhorse that is the Quartet app) showcases both his technical facility and deep understanding of harmony.
Whether you're a jazz aficionado, prog rock enthusiast, or simply someone who appreciates musical storytelling, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the creative process of an extraordinary musician who refuses to be confined by genre boundaries.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in Finchley in NorthLondon and I'm going to see Mr
Theo Travis, who's a terrificsaxophone player and a flutist
and plays lots of reallyinteresting instruments which
I'm hoping we're going to talkabout.
Talking a little bit about hiscollaboration with some prog
(00:21):
rock greats and his journey.
I'm looking forward to seeinghim.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:43):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level,
Geoff (00:52):
Hi Theo, you all right?
Theo (00:53):
I'm very well, Geoff, nice to see you.
Geoff (00:54):
Thanks for inviting me round.
I love your display ofinstruments.
We'll talk about those in a bit, but some really interesting
stuff there.
Can we start talking about yourbackground, how you got started
and what turned you on to jazzand music in the first place?
Theo (01:06):
As a child I started on the flute.
I was probably aged eight ornine, learned classical flute.
There was quite a lot of musicin the house.
My mum played piano a bit andloved classical music in
particular.
Dad had quite a broad range ofmusic he listened to.
He did have a couple of StanGetz albums, including Live at
(01:30):
Storyville, so I did hear somejazz in the early days.
So there was generally musicaround.
We would go and hear classicalconcerts at the CBSO City
Birmingham Symphony Orchestra inBirmingham where I lived.
But then, probably around theage of 12, 13, I did start
getting into pop music.
T-rex was one of my firstfavourite bands.
(01:50):
The Beatles, dad had the BlueAlbum and I just was obsessed by
the Beatles Blue Album,everything on it.
But then, having got into T-Rex, I suppose we're talking, what
mid-70s, a bit of David Bowie.
And then I got into Yes and thewhole thing, Pink Floyd, King
Grosie.
Geoff (02:09):
Great.
Theo (02:09):
And I had a guitar and I became an avid bedroom guitarist
.
I would just stay in my roomand I had the Beatles Complete
and The Who Complete and I wouldwork out all the chords and I'd
play along and sing along.
As I'm saying, none of this wasto do with flute and saxophone,
really, and where it joined upwas when I was probably 16, 17,
(02:33):
and I got into my first bandwith some friends from school
which was called.
Fundamental Furniture, and thekeyboard player, Hugh Nankivell,
was in the Midland Youth JazzOrchestra so he knew his jazz
and loved jazz and he introducedme to John Coltrane's Afro Blue
Impressions, which he thinksquite a deep end album.
But just the emotional power ofit just hit me.
So we would sometimes jam a bit.
I would take the flute torehearsals.
(02:55):
I was actually playing bass inthe band.
I think I'd graduated frombedroom guitarist to bass player
in the band.
Wasn't very good, but I did doflute on one tune and so I'd
improvise with Hugh inrehearsals.
Interestingly enough, weactually rehearsed in Andrea
Vicari's loft because heryounger brother, Scott Vicari,
(03:17):
was the drummer.
He was 15 or something.
We had to sneak him into thepubs, we would play, but Andrea
had a nice house with a loft andwe would rehearse.
So you knew Andrea from earlyschool.
So I knew Andrea from school days, yeah, and then I
would go to Birmingham RecordLibrary where there was a
fantastic record library and Iwould just take out all these
albums.
There were booths.
There were actually four boothsin the library where you could
(03:39):
take a stack of vinyls and justplay them.
And stack of vinyls and justplay them, and whatever you
liked you'd take home and I'drecord them on cassettes and
then I'd take them.
But I'd go the next day afterschool swap and take more.
So I was an absolute sponge.
I just took it all in and it'ssuch a time of discovery in your
mid-teens when you're justfinding out about music.
My sister actually playedsaxophone so I nicked her
(04:00):
saxophone and started having ago at that then.
Then I had lessons and then Igot really into the jazz thing.
So the sort of obsession withproggy stuff slightly took a
back seat as I got moreTemporarily, of course,
temporarily.
Geoff (04:13):
Well, it all went full circle later.
So how did you learn toimprovise then
Theo (04:17):
I had a teacher, a guy called Mike Reed, who was in
NYJO at the time, and he sort ofintroduced me to some of these
practice books, like there's afamous one called patterns for
jazz and there's an OliverNelson one, patterns.
And then I again I would go toBirmingham library and in the,
in the music section, they had alot of practice books and there
(04:38):
were a lot of I think DavidBaker used to do a series and
again there would be, there'llbe patterns, there'd be theory
ones, the patterns for jazz one,Jerry Coker and someone else.
They give you a phrase and thenthey would just write the
chords out, all the differentchords, and they'd sometimes go
chromatically and sometimes theygo in fourths and sometimes
(04:58):
they go in tones.
So you'd have to remember thephrase and work it out in the
different keys.
Geoff (05:03):
So as far as I remember that was different from a lot of
other books, wasn't it?
You know, yes, because that oneactually you actually had to
think, didn't you actually applyabsolutely cells of music to
other things
Theo (05:13):
Absolutely.
And doing that, I think, wasreally helpful because it
started making you see the chordand instantly come up with
stuff or work out phrases thatyou'd played in other keys.
So it got you more versatile inthe different keys
And flexible of course.
And flexible, that was very useful.
And then I would find moretranscription books.
I did do some transcriptions Iwasn't a big transcription
(05:36):
person because there were somany books available of
transcriptions and I would kindof work out little phrases that
I liked and then I'd probablylearn them.
And then I would kind of workout little phrases that I liked
and then I'd probably learn them.
And then I would look at theJerry Coker patterns for jazz
book and I'd try and play themin the different keys, just
playing through.
And so I'd try and build up afacility of flexibility and a
(05:57):
repertoire.
And then went to the MidlandYouth Jazz Orchestra and I would
, you know, you get your soloand there'd be a bunch of chords
and you'd have to do your best.
But I also, very early on, wasa band leader.
So right from the beginning Ifound people, I'd get together
in the living room and we'd playstandards, just to do that
thing of playing.
I've always liked small groups,things.
(06:18):
I've seemed to be fine atgetting people together.
Geoff (06:21):
Were you, um, composing in those days?
When did you start composing?
Theo (06:25):
Not then it was a little bit later Not much later,
because in the band it wasoriginal music but written by
Hugh, the keyboard player, andMike Chan, the guitarist, and I
was very in awe of their abilityto write songs and I thought
I'd love to do that.
But it took me a while to havea go and it was probably two or
(06:47):
three years, I think, when Iwent to university, I went to
Manchester, studied classicalmusic.
Again, I found big bands inManchester and just went along
and and quite soon I found someguys and put them together and
started this jazz quintet.
So presumably at some stage youmoved to London.
There was a jazz scene sort of on the north west around
(07:09):
the clubs, but it's not London,I mean London's, where everyone
is and London's where it allhappens.
And you know I would listen tothe radio programmes Peter
Clayton's Sunday Night Jazzthing and you know other jazz
things on Radio 3.
And you'd hear about I think itwas the time of kind of Loose
Tubes and you know you'd just be.
(07:29):
You know I had been to RonnieScott's.
I'd come down from Birminghamso I was kind of aware that
London was where I wanted to go.
Geoff (07:36):
So I know that you've played a lot of prog rock.
Can you tell me how you you'relaughing um which is great, can
you tellme how that came about and how
you moving from jazz into progrock
Theo (07:46):
When I was first in London , as I said, I had my jazz band
and quartets and playing aroundet cetera, on the jazz scene
there were a couple of otherpeoples I'd been asked to record
saxophone and flute on recordsfor including one in a studio in
Brixton.
I know exactly when it was.
It was early 1997.
I got a call out of the blue.
I know exactly when it was.
It was early 1997.
(08:07):
I got a call out of the blue.
I pick up the phone.
Someone says hello, my name isMick Karn, I'm a bass player.
Geoff (08:10):
Mick Karn was the bass player from one of my favourite
bands ever called Japan.
Theo (08:14):
Hello, my name is Mick Karn.
His was, I hear, you're asaxophone player.
So he had his group with threeother ex-Japan people Steve
Jansen the drummer, RichardBarbieri the keyboard player and
they had a bunch of work.
They had a little label calledMedium Productions and they had
some work coming up and theyneeded a saxophone player.
(08:34):
I'd been recommended.
Would I be interested?
Was I free?
So I said yes,
Geoff (08:40):
Of course you did,
Theo (08:41):
And what it turned out being was a TV show in the
Netherlands, something calledTwo Meters, a gig at the Astoria
2, Charing Cross Roaddownstairs and a month in Japan,
literally a month in Japandoing a tour with a kind of
multi-artist programme headlinedby this guy called Sugizo who
(09:03):
was in a huge Japanese rock bandcalled Lunacy.
So these were big gigs andabout two or three weeks
rehearsing.
Later on, when I kind of knewhim better, we got to be good
friends actually all of them,particularly Mick actually was
lovely and Steve.
Anyway, later on I said why didyou call me?
There's lots of good saxophoneplayers.
He said well, there were tworeasons.
(09:26):
There seemed to be two reasons,and I'm never sure which is the
real one.
One was that I did this sessionin this Brixton studio and I'd
been recommended by the engineer.
That sounds nice.
The other one was that myname's Theo and Mick is a Greek
Cypriot and he liked the idea ofa Greek geezer on saxophone,
which, knowing Mick, is probablyall a combination.
Geoff (09:46):
Partly true?
Yeah, Probably partly true,Anyway.
Theo (09:48):
I'm not Greek, my parents just like the name, Theodore,
wow.
So we did this rehearsal andthere was another.
So there was me, the three ofthem, and then there was a
guitarist who's gone on to doamazing things, called Stephen
Wilson, who was just the sideman guitarist and I got on very
well with him and ended uprecording on some of his
projects and we had a lot ofmusical interests in common.
(10:09):
It's interesting music.
There was some singing, but notmuch.
So in jazz world we tend tohave a head and solos and a head
, and that's kind of often whatwe do.
This wasn't like that.
This was like the pieces ofmusic were kind of improvised
and then solidified, so theywould sort of improvise and
record it, embellish it andcolour it with textures, and
that was kind of it.
And then you'd kind of learn itand then you'd play it.
(10:32):
So there wasn't an obvious head, solo, head, and there would be
improvising in it in sections.
And I found it quite inspiringbecause it's quite liberating,
because when you're used to aform, any formula, whether it's
head, solos head or somethingelse, it just kind of opens
things up.
And in fact, after thatliberating experience, I then
(10:53):
kind of took it on board thisidea of you don't need a head,
solo head and started thisimprovising trio I had with John
Marshall, Mark Wood and me, andagain the idea was we just
improvise and record and seewhat we.
Again the idea was we'd justimprovise in recordings, see
what we thought.
What was it like?
We went into a studio and did abunch of recordings and the
only preconceived ideas was onelet's keep them shortish, so
(11:14):
they tended to be under sixminutes, anything from two to
six.
And the other preconceived ideais whatever we do, next time we
do something, let's do itdifferent.
Wow.
Whatever we do, next time we dosomething, let's do it
different, wow.
So no chordal anything, nogroove, anything.
Geoff (11:27):
That's fantastic.
I love that
Theo (11:29):
And it worked really well.
So we made an album and it cameout in 33 records.
I'm very proud of it, and thething I loved about the
recordings we did was that somewould be hardcore noise, some
would be incredibly delicate andsome which I was particularly
proud of, being a freeimprovising champ was harmonic,
but not on one chord, not on adrone, because Mark tended to
(11:49):
play the baritone guitar andhe's got a whole kind of
Brazilian music thing.
Geoff (11:55):
There's a huge range in the baritone guitar isn't it
Theo (11:58):
Yes and because it's quite low.
So he would play harmonic.
You know beautiful kind ofguitaristic harmonic sequences
and I would have to ear-roll Imean I haven't got perfect pitch
but I'd have to kind ofear-roll it and kind of follow
it.
And John Marshall sadly nolonger with us was a very good
improviser, really very much acomposer as he played.
(12:19):
So he would listen, sometimesit'd be groove, sometimes it'd
be swing, sometimes it'd be justmade-up rhythms, you know Wow.
So it'd be this huge paletteand we did a tour of the kind of
hardcore improv clubs andsometimes people said this
doesn't sound improvised enoughbecause there's a traditional
free improv which is, you know,noise often and this would go
(12:43):
into harmonic areas which wascompletely freely improvised but
wasn't traditional what freeimprovisers do.
Geoff (12:49):
So when you toured were you playing the record?
like the record?
Theo (12:52):
Well interesting, very good question.
So there were some areas on therecord which could just be a
sound or could be a feel,generally not harmonic point,
tonal area.
Geoff (13:05):
Well, I would have thought that trying to recreate
something that you've donespontaneously would kind of
negate the whole point of it.
Theo (13:13):
It does yes, so generally it would be free, but sometimes
there'd be like sound, even ifit was a case of there'd be a
guitar feel in a certain key, hemight start like that, but it
would go wherever.
I wish we'd recorded them all,all the gigs properly.
We did record quite a few,although I don't know where the
tapes are.
But it is an interestingquestion when you have something
(13:35):
that's a specific set of soundpictures and then you go on to
and, yes, you don't want torecreate them, but at the same
time you want the flavour of thevariety.
So this kind of came from theMick Karn, Steve Jansen ,
everything which we did the tour.
So Steve Wilson had been asideman and I went to his studio
and after that tour I recordedsome things with him.
(13:57):
He's prolific composer andstudio.
I'm a big fan of StevenWilson's work.
I love the fact that he's aproducer that plays and he's I'm
just curious about how heworked in the studio and kind of
what kind of control he wouldtake.
It depends on the project.
So the first thing I did withhim in the studio was two things
(14:17):
actually.
One was playing on some songshe'd already recorded.
He had a band called PorcupineTree and he was recording an
album called Stupid Dream at thetime and he wanted some sax
solos, some flute solos on aboutthree or four songs.
So on those the song wasrecorded.
There was a big open sectionwhere he wanted the sax solo.
(14:40):
So he gave me a recording ofthat and said I want sax solo on
that.
So it was basically a case ofdo a sax solo on saxophone there
.
So it was basic a case of To asaxophone, the big section.
What he would do sometimes islike if I was on a roll he would
just extend the section Mm-hmm,or afterwards he might re jig,
the arrangement.
(15:00):
So flexible in the veryflexible.
That's great.
And that was even on a fixedsong.
The other project was somethingcalled Bass Communion which was
was very ambient, soundexploratory and it was really a
case of bring some instruments,what have you got, let's try
stuff.
And he's very interested insonic possibilities.
So for example, on the firstBass Communion album I took the
soprano and he just said trysomething.
(15:21):
So I would try something and Iwould try some pretty angular
free stuff.
And then he would enjoy slowingit down, reversing it, cutting
it up, mangling it to pieces,putting it through anything and
everything cassette mod typeprocessing, just to see the
sound.
(15:42):
And he'd enjoy sound processingfrom an acoustic source rather
than from a MIDI or electronicsource.
So that was how the BassCommunion thing happened.
There are other albums.
I mean I've recorded a lot withSteve over the years now and
he's generally interested inpossibilities.
So I mean, more often than notI'll bring stuff and he'll say
(16:04):
try something.
And then he might say, trysomething else.
and it's very creative, it's notlike a Steely Dan, no, no I
haven't done one, but like Iimagine they are where it's like
we want this we want this, wewant this way more organic than
that.
It's very organic.
It's very much like trysomething.
Yeah, I like that try somethinghe's amazing producer, and so
you get.
I've had some wonderful thingscome out of the sessions with
(16:25):
Steve, in fact the last albumbut one.
I was telling him about theduduk, which is this beautiful
Armenian woodwind instrument.
I said I've got this thing,that's rather interesting.
And he said, oh, let's try that, let's try it.
So we tried it on some tracksand it ended up on one track.
But then what he sometimes doesis he'll release an album and
then he'll release a kind of boxset, director's cut of the
(16:49):
album.
On the previous album there wasthis one track with the duduk,
but it's like he'll have aBlu-ray of outtakes, all these
other things, or he'll try otherthings.
So it's very creative and veryenjoyable Incredible.
Geoff (17:02):
Are you still in touch with him?
Theo (17:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So he just released an album acouple of months ago which I'm
on quite a bit, and then he'sdoing.
He's in the middle of a worldtour at the moment.
He did four nights at theLondon Palladium right and I saw
him just beforehand.
He said oh, do you want toguest?
It'd be lovely if you gobecause I'm on this.
There's a kind of quite ambientsoprano.
(17:24):
He said, yeah, come on, come on, yes.
So I I popped into the LondonPa equal and played on three
tracks.
Quite often will collaborate oninteresting things, like a year
ago.
Again, I was telling him aboutthe duduk and I, because he's
very into surrounds and he doesa lot of these surround sound
(17:45):
remixes and I said wouldn't beamazing to have duduk and then
like full-on surround sound 5.1soundscapes.
Geoff (17:52):
Wow, yes,
Theo (17:53):
he said that sounds good, so I said let's do it.
So we did it and also I've beendoing these YouTube duduk
ambient.
Geoff (18:01):
I was going to ask you about this actually,
So, so this is related to that.
So I've been doing these YouTubeambient duduk meditation things
.
They're quite popular whenthey're an hour.
Some of them are four and fivehours, aren't they?
Theo (18:13):
Yes, but they tend to.
I don't play for four or fivehours.
They tend to be like 30, 40minutes, yeah, okay.
So I said, Steve, let's, let's,I think it'd be good to do like
an hour with a duduk and thenthe surround sound and then you
do your thing and we did it.
There's a labelI've done some things for the
guy who has released all theKing Crimson material and I
(18:34):
mentioned it to him and he hashad an interesting history with
record labels because heactually signed Sir Karl Jenkins
and released the Adi Amosalbums which were a big popular
crossover thing.
He signed Michael Nyman for thesoundtrack for the piano, which
was a big popular crossoverthing, because it's not just
people that like that artist orthat music, it's like it's just
(18:58):
got a sound that's appealing.
And I thought we were justgoing to release this thing
independently and I was talkingto him about this project.
He went no, I like this, thiscould be a thing.
So, bless him.
He did the full CD Blu-ray sowe've got a physical product of
the Steve Wilson surround soundIncredible and did a thing.
Sad to say, it didn't do thatwell, but it happened and it
(19:21):
came out.
And again.
It was an example of mecollaborating with Steve just
suggesting an idea.
He likes the artistic idea andruns with it.
I love thatidea.
I'd love to work with StevenWilson.
He's a, I'm a huge fan if he'slistening.
Let's collaborate.
Can we talk a bit about yourinstruments thing?
(19:42):
You mentioned the duduk.
Are you able to just give us alittle sample of some of these
things?
Sure, because as we sit here,there's a whole tray of
interesting sticks withdifferent colours on them and
presumably flutes, right?
Yes, flutes.
Geoff (19:59):
There's a soprano sax.
There's a couple of flutes.
There's an alto flute.
Theo (20:04):
Yes, I brought the concert flute, which is probably the
main one Alto flute I love it'sa fourth lower, me too.
Yeah, I like that too.
So it's a kind of lower richer,deeper, slightly more
mysterious sound.
And I really like it and I'vedone a lot specifically on alto
flute.
Then I have a bass flute, whichis a lovely beast.
(20:25):
I tend to only really use it inthe studio, but it's a
fantastic sound.
So this thing, the duduk, I'mfascinated by this thing.
Just tell us all about this.
So it's a woodwind.
It's a very simple, in a way,musical instrument.
It's one piece of wood, alwaysmade from the wood of an apricot
(20:45):
tree, and the reed is a doublereed, a huge double reed, about
four times the size of a bassoondouble reed.
And they are very fragile andquite hard to tune and quite
hard to get.
I actually have to get themfrom Armenia, by post.
They're quite hard to lookafter, they're hard to keep in
(21:09):
tune.
I mean, it looks a bit like abasic descant recorder, doesn't
it?
Yes, it looks like it exactly.
In fact it's simpler, becausedescant recorders, well, they'll
have like two holes on thebottom.
This is just literally eightholes.
So it's diatonic, so it's justthe notes of a scale.
(21:33):
But you have to half hole theholes to make some of the
semitones.
And there's something magicalabout it when it's in the right
hands.
I mean, I'm, you know, verymuch a beginner and learner, but
I'll have a go and play um um,
Geoff (22:17):
Wow, that's lovely.
It's interesting how you'remaking the vibrato with your
cheek.
Theo (22:21):
Yes, so you kind of puff your cheeks out like Dizzy
Gillespie plus.
It's a gorgeous sound.
And that's how you do thevibrato yeah, from the mouth and
the lips.
I mean.
I became aware of dudukprobably 25 years ago because I
was in a band called Gong andthere was another sax player who
loved duduk and he played a lotof it.
(22:44):
But at the time I wasn'tinterested.
I was into Bob Berg, MikeBrecker you know Bob Mintzer,
Stan Getz, Dexter Gordon, allthe jazz players.
I wasn't that interested induduk and it was only really
about 15 to 20 years later.
I got into it.
I think originally through thatsoundtrack, the Peter Gabriel
(23:04):
soundtrack, Last Temptation ofChrist.
When there's a track called TheFeeling Begins, with some
beautiful duduk on it, and Iheard some on on it and I heard
some on the internet and I didget one.
And then, during lockdown 2020,it became my lockdown, one of
my lockdown projects learn thething, work on the thing.
And then I did a load ofrecording in my studio and in
(23:27):
fact, made an album.
Put it into context that theduduk is not normally in, so you
often hear it in.
for example, you knowtraditional Armenian music and,
as I say, on the Peter Gabrielis a bit of crossover.
But you know doing what I doand like I thought, well, it's
an amazing sound.
It'd be nice to try it withsongs.
I think I first heard it on a
Paul
Geoff (23:47):
McCartney used it McCartney Chaos and
Creation.
Yes, Chaos and Creation in theBa Yard.
That's it, Chaos and Creation.
It's, on that, really nice.
And it is also on a DavidSilvian track Darkest Dreaming.
Yes, yeah.
Theo (23:59):
So it has been used in some songs, and it's just
magical, gorgeous.
Geoff (24:05):
I could talk to you all day about this.
I want to hear more about MickKarn, but I probably don't have
time.
Theo (24:10):
I could say one thing that's interesting about Mick
Karn Go on, go on.
Apart from the fact he's lovelyand I loved what he did, he had
a great sound, he had a greattime, he had a great feel, he
had great ideas.
He had no idea what he wasdoing.
He barely knew what the notesof the strings were.
(24:32):
He certainly wouldn't know whatthe notes were up the frets, up
the fretless fretboard.
He just he kind of approachedit in a kind of naive way.
You know, he knew instinctivelyabout music and he knew about
you know time and harmony andfeel but, he had no theoretical
knowledge at all.
He literally just played withhis friends from school and they
(24:53):
put songs together and he'dwork out things.
You know all the stuff that weas jazz musicians study and know
and learn.
You can take all that stuffthat we learn and know as jazz
musicians and throw it out thewindow and have an artist and a
musician as individual, asproficient, as great as Mick
Karn.
Geoff (25:14):
Do you find that also working with more rock musicians
, that you come across that moreoften than jazz?
Theo (25:21):
Oh yeah, totally.
I mean, jazz musicians knowtheir stuff.
It's what we do.
We kind of learn about harmony,we learn about theory.
You know we can generally playin lots of different keys.
We can read chord symbols, rockmusicians generally well, it's
a generalisation but often can'tdo that at all.
They come from the song youknow, maybe playing guitar or
(25:41):
playing piano, maybe using arecording studio to build things
up that they then record andthen recreate.
But they generally don't havethat harmony knowledge and yeah,
I've played with a lot ofpeople who don't have that
theoretical knowledge that jazzmusicians do.
I enjoy it because I have anaffinity with a lot of the music
they will make.
I can think of quite a few jazzmusicians I know who, if they
(26:05):
were in that situation, wouldnot be able to help themselves
from kind of looking down on it,because these people don't know
, some of them won't know thetheoretical knowledge and a
generation that's kind of.
Geoff (26:15):
I know exactly what you mean.
Theo (26:17):
Particularly having the experience with Mick Karn and
people like that, I go yeah,yeah, but that's not.
It's not what's important.
What's important is the music.
And however you get there isfine and in you get there is is
fine and, in fact, sometimespeople can be more original by
not having all this history intheir playing.
And no,
Geoff (26:35):
That's something that I've tried to explore over the
last couple of years, because Istarted a songwriting club which
you were a member of.
How long were you a member ofmy, my club?
Theo (26:44):
For um, it was about 18 months,
So we tried to do stuff thatwas not consciously cerebral.
We tried to do loads ofdifferent things.
You remember,
I do absolutely and it was a really, well, first of all, I
absolutely adored being in thesongwriting club and I've still
got all the songs I wrote and,in fact, probably from some of
the ones, other people did One.
It was super creative.
I think having the differentthemes or the different
(27:07):
disciplines or the differentparameters, throwing you out of
your comfort zone or just makingyou try something that you
haven't done before, but withina supportive group, I think
spurred you on.
And the other thing I found isthat some weeks I would come
with a song that I was reallyproud of I thought would be
really good and I thought I'mgoing to play them, my song, and
it's going to be really good.
And then I'd hear otherpeople's songs and they were so
(27:29):
good them, my song, and it'sgoing to be really good.
And then I'd hear otherpeople's songs and they were so
good, they were so amazing.
I thought, well, I guess mine'sall right and and.
But that would make you think,right, try harder, Theo.
And you kind of would tryharder and then spur you on each
week.
You'd kind of spur you on, andso it was.
It was very interesting andagain for me.
I mean I have done somesongwriting, but not that much,
and I would try things for thesongwriting group and again in a
(27:51):
supportive group of verycreative people.
Geoff (28:03):
So I've made some apps, yes, and I think you know a
little bit about them.
You've experienced experiencedthem.
I asked you to pick a tune toplay on today right what did you
pick?
So I picked 500 Miles High byChick Corea.
It's a tune that I have playedquite a lot on gigs and I always
enjoy playing on it.
(28:25):
It's a tune I tend to approachin a different way to if I was
approaching a classic standard,a Days of Wine and Roses or a
Beautiful Love or All The ThingsYou Are.
Because I think, partly becauseof the feel, the rhythmic feel,
it's a Latin one, it's astraight eights one and it's
often on gigs one that peoplewill build.
So they might start with a halftime sort of cross stick feel
(28:47):
and then they'll go into a sambaor whatever.
So it's often one that youreally can get that forward flow
and the build of energy.
And also I really like thechord sequence.
It's got this reallyinteresting chord sequence where
there's these sort of homechords, the minors, and then
when it goes between them itdoes these interesting kind of
stepwise movements that I findvery satisfying.
(29:10):
And sometimes they're a pair ofchords that seem quite far away
from each other but they're veryclose.
So, for example, the fourth baris a B-flat major and the sixth
bar is a B half-diminished.
They sound like quite differentchords, a major seventh and a
half-diminished, but of coursethe B-flat major, B-flat D-F-A.
The only difference betweenthat and the B half diminished
(29:30):
is you move the root, thesemitone.
There's that great quote whichI'm sure you'll appreciate a
chord is only a chord when thebass player decides what note to
play.
Yeah, and that's exactly whathappens there, because the Bb
slips up to a B.
It's clever, isn't it?
And it happens more than once.
So you've got the A minor, barnine, which goes to an F sharp
(29:53):
half diminished.
And A minor, you've got A, c, eand again F sharp half
diminished sounds miles away.
But if you've got your A minor,you just slip in the F sharp
underneath it.
So you've got these lovelystepwise movements between the
chords,
The interesting one that I always point out is because it
kind of resolves to C minor,doesn't it?
Yes, and then in the last bar.
(30:14):
It goes to B7 altered yes, andif you know about harmony, if
you play C minor over B, B7,that gives you B altered Exactly
.
So what you can do you can stayin C minor and play while the
bass player is playing a, b, youcan still play C minor.
It's just genius.
Theo (30:32):
It is.
It really is it is.
So I love these things aboutthis tune, plus if you add to
that the build.
Ok.
so the intro is kind of gettingin the car and then we've got
gear one, gear two, gear 3 gear4, and I kind of try and build
it in the performance.
But it's just a very it's oneof those standards that's just
(30:56):
very enjoyable to play.
It's probably why people pickit and play it and the
interesting sequence.
So that's why I wanted to dothat tune
Geoff (31:01):
Right .
So here we go.
So um, um, um, um, um.
(33:04):
Oh, that's great.
Theo (33:18):
Thank you.
I love the C minor over B.
It's such a great sound, isn'tit?
Geoff (33:23):
What a great song.
Yeah, how is it playing alongwith the app?
How do you find it?
Theo (33:27):
I like playing along with tracks and have done it forever.
To be honest, whether it's appslike this, which is brilliant
because of the actual quality ofthe playing and the sound, and
everything.
Or I've even, you know, haveplayed along with album tracks.
I remember when I started out Iwould play along with Santana's
Moonflower, which is a greatlive album because there's so
(33:51):
much amazing percussion andenergy and a lot of it is kind
of one chord.
I've done a lot of recording soI'm used to putting on the cans
and playing a lot of two stuffwhich I like.
It's a comfortable environment.
Geoff (34:03):
Did you use the Jamey Aebersold playalongs?
Theo (34:05):
back in the day.
Yes, back in the day I used theJamey Aebersold play-alongs.
I even went to a JameyAebersold course at Goldsmiths
University.
Oh God, when would that havebeen?
Early 80s, I suppose.
Geoff (34:17):
So you got to hear him count in in the flesh One, two,
three, four.
Theo (34:23):
I got to hear him count in in the flesh.
I got to hear him play in theflesh.
It was very prescriptive, butwhat a guy.
I mean what an amazing thingthat was that he started.
I mean there's like 100 JameyAebersold albums.
I mean I have had whatever?
Quite a few of them and therewere some quite interesting ones
.
So the classic standard onesand the Maiden Voyage et cetera
(34:45):
are great.
One I used to like, which isinteresting.
It kind of ties into one ofyour app tracks is.
There's a David Liebman onewhich was pretty out there, it
was kind of Lookout Farm, andthere's some tracks which are
flying all over the place andthere'd be whole tracks which
are I can't remember the name ofthe track.
there'd be a long free one, but,you know, with rhythm section
(35:08):
free so flying about andsometimes I would play along and
literally just try and keep intime with it or lock into the
groove with it or practicescales with it, just so I could
play in time at those sort ofspeeds.
And then because it was freeand the piano would be playing
very much outside the changes,just holding on, and that was
(35:29):
quite an advanced one
Geoff (35:30):
Because you know, I included a free improvisation
yes, I volume four,
Theo (35:36):
four in volume four.
Yeah, I was fascinated to seethat and I did pull it up and I
played along with it and it wasreally interesting because I
play quite a lot of freeimprovised music in different
contexts and different people.
So I was fascinated to hear howthe app free improvisation track
would work.
So I played along with it andthen I thought I know what's
(35:56):
gonna be interesting.
I'm gonna play around with theapp, with the different
instrumentations, the differentgroupings, because when I first
put it on it I played along topiano bass drums, which is
probably the setting I generallyhave.
And then I thought, well, I'lltry pulling the piano out
because you can have thesedifferent options of the
musicians playing on the app.
So I pulled the piano out andput the trumpet in because I
(36:17):
thought you know, trumpet, sax,bass, drums is a kind of classic
combination.
I'll be interested to see whatgoes on.
So I played along with that,which I enjoyed, and did
something quite different.
But I remember thinking thatthe trumpet was quite diatonic
in a way, of what he played.
So then I pulled the trumpetout and played along with the
bass and drums and I playeddifferent stuff to that again,
(36:41):
but all the time, you know, it'squite fresh and refreshing and
the instruction is it's free, soyou can do what you like.
But sometimes when I playedalong, I would just jump into a
different key.
Yeah, because it's like well,this is where I'm playing, yeah,
yeah, and you can play thereand I'm playing here, and that's
what it is.
But it was good and it was funand interesting to do it, along
(37:06):
with the app, and the series ofapps has so many great classic
standards that it wasinteresting to play in another
area as
Geoff (37:14):
So, to finish off, I've got some questions, starting off
with, what'syour favourite album.
Theo (37:21):
I'll give you my favourite jazz album, because that's easy
.
Stan Getz, Sweet Rain 1967.
Stan Getz, Chick Corea, one ofhis first recordings.
Ron Carter, Grady Tate on drums.
I've loved this album for many,many years.
It sounds gorgeous, it soundslike it was recorded yesterday.
The tunes are fabulous Litha,Windows, Con Alma.
(37:43):
Yeah, Stan Getz sounds amazing,it's just perfect.
Yeah, it sounds modern, itsounds fresh, it sounds classic,
it sounds experimental.
Geoff (37:51):
What about in the other world?
In your progressive world.
Theo (37:55):
That's very hard.
In the progressive world.
I'd certainly certainly, Yes,Close to the Edge.
King Crimson, Red or in theCourt of the Crimson King.
I like Brian Eno's On Land.
I like Quadrophenia by The who.
Geoff (38:08):
Right, interesting.
Okay.
So question two is there afavourite musician, alive or
dead, you would like to playwith?
Theo (38:15):
I'd like to play live with David Torn.
I've played with him on recordand we've met, but never live,
and he's a very interestingexperimental guitarist.
I like what he does.
Then there's the obvious PaulMcCartney and Steve Winwood, but
that's less likely.
Geoff (38:31):
You never know.
Is there a highlight of yourcareer?
So far?
Theo (38:35):
There've been many highlights, I guess playing with
some of the great artists who Ienjoyed listening to as a
15-year-old.
I know you played with RobertFripp, didn't you?
Yes, did a lot with Robert Fripp.
We did a lot of live gigs, fivealbums.
One highlight would definitelybe we did a concert at Coventry
(38:55):
Cathedral, literally just a duo,kind of improvised by areas
surround sound.
The new Coventry Cathedral isamazing.
It was an incredible gig andafter the gig Robert looked to
me and went that's the nextalbum and that did become an
album, Live at CoventryCathedral and we didn't edit any
(39:17):
of it.
Amazing, and I remember at theend of the gig I just remember
thinking where the hell did thatcome from?
Because it wasn't even likevocabulary that I'd often done
used.
It was just like one of thosewow moments.
Geoff (39:31):
Just reacting, surely, yeah, reacting.
Theo (39:34):
But in the church, the cathedral context, it kind of
puts you and everything in akind of certain headspace.
Wow, wow.
So that was a special highlight, incredible.
What was the last concert youattended?
I think it was my local jazzclub, actually at The Elephant
Inn in North Finchley.
Ralph Moore, the sax player,was over here doing a tour and
(39:54):
playing locally, so I went alongto that and it was great, guys,
I know.
In the rhythm section.
So yeah, Ralph Moore.
Geoff (40:01):
Fabulous, fabulous.
What would you say is yourmusical weakness?
Theo (40:05):
Probably I can think of two of the many Repertoire.
on standards, I'm not that good.
When you go to a standardssession, I always feel I should
know more.
When I'm fronting it, I cancall the ones that I know, which
makes it too easy.
And probably the other thingI'm not I'm weak at is
practicing.
I get distracted so easily.
I'll play some scales and thenI'll start tidying the room and
(40:28):
looking out the window andlooking at my watch and then
going and looking at email.
So, and I should say that boththese weaknesses that occurred
to me are helped by things likeyour apps.
Because… Good answer, becauseyou've got so many standards,
it's like okay, here they are,just learn the buggers.
Geoff (40:45):
What should I play today?
Theo (40:46):
Just learn one and practicing.
When you're thinking of goingand making yet another cup of
tea, put on an app and play tothe end and then play another
one, so it sort of keeps you inthe room.
So I think it does help forthat excellent,
Good answer.
I love the way you brought theapps into that one! Do you ever
get nervous on stage?
Rarely, but occasionally, either if I'm doing something
(41:09):
very exposed, maybe in anunusual situation, or I'm not
sure what I'm doing.
I mean again, I can think of aparticular time it was a while
ago but when I remember beingnervous there was a big farewell
concert for a great pianistcalled Harold Budd.
He's done kind of experimental,kind of quite naive sort of
ambient music in a way.
(41:30):
He worked with Brian Eno quitea bit and he did a farewell
concert in Brighton, BrightonDome, and it was him and a bunch
of collaborators, reallyinteresting people um Gia Wobble
, John Fox, Bill Nelson, Alex,the Balanescu quartet, anyway,
the whole concert in BrightonDome, big audience, big event,
(41:51):
starts off unaccompanied altoflute and flute itself is is
something.
If you're nervous, yourembouchure goes, alto flute even
more.
Yeah, put yourself in front of1500 people on a piece of music
you don't know very well, yeahand yeah, so I was nervous then.
Yeah, but generally not too bad.
Geoff (42:09):
What's your favorite sandwich?
Theo (42:11):
Easy, cheese and pickle.
Branston
Geoff (42:13):
So many people say that.
Mark Lockheart said thatyesterday exactly the same,
Oh, sorry.
It's a classic.
It's a classic.
It's fine, it's a classic.
What about a favourite movie?
Theo (42:24):
Quadrophenia I was a Who fan.
It's a great album and I lovethe film.
What about a favourite venue?
Ronnie Scott's I love it.
Geoff (42:33):
What about a favourite country or city?
Theo (42:35):
Scottish Highlands.
I love the Scottish Highlandsand I've been there many times,
sort of on the West Coast, manyholidays, love it.
I've also actually taken myjazz quartet up there in a kind
of crazy labour of love.
A few years back now.
but we played on the Island ofSkye, we played on the Island of
Mull, we played in the libraryon Iona, which is tiny and it
(42:57):
was a kind of amazing tour.
One place as a British jazzmusician that is magical and has
always been and whenever I playthere you feel it in your veins
is when you play in New YorkCity.
I remember when I first did it,going into Manhattan on a
Greyhound bus with the band Gongand we played at the Knitting
(43:17):
Factory.
And in fact recently, about ayear or so ago, with Soft
Machine, we played at the CityWinery.
And Manhattan itself is not big, it's a few square miles, and
you stand on stage and you thinkall the greats you know
Coltrane, Miles, Sonny Rollins,Monk, everyone they became
famous in these two square miles.
(43:37):
And you are here, especially ina band like Soft Machine, where
we're playing our own music.
And when you play a solo andI'm thinking I'm in New York
City,
You're soaking up the vibe,aren't you?
You're soaking up the vibe and you're kind of channeling
it.
As a jazz player to play in NewYork City.
It's amazing,
Geoff (43:55):
I didn't really ask you about Soft Machine?
Did you do you compose for SoftMachine, the new
iteration
Theo (44:00):
Yes very much so I'm probably the
main composer.
Well, certainly for the lastfew years, last three albums, we
do about 50% of our neworiginal music some of it's
freely improvised great, a big,big part of what I do
fantastic.
The final question, which I knowyou've been looking forward to,
is what's your favourite chord?
(44:21):
Oh, I love this question.
I've been thinking about thisquestion.
So my favourite chord is achord that is both major and
minor at the same time.
People talk about major beinghappy and minor being sad and
there's this chord that is bothat the same time and I'm
thinking how can that be?
It's incredible.
(44:41):
So my favourite chord is a G6 ora sixth chord, because you've
got your major third at thebottom, so G B, major third, and
with the E at the top it'smajor, but of course it's an E
minor, first inversion.
So it's minor and it's majorand it's sort of emotionally
slightly ambiguous because it'smajor and it's minor, so it's
got this whole kind of worldwithin itself.
(45:03):
And, yes, because the sixthchord does often have that
character, but I think it hasother characters and this
ambiguity thing, and so that'smy favorite.
Fantastic, what a great way tofinish.
I could talk to you all day,but, but obviously we've got to
stop.
But so, Theo, thank you so muchfor your
time.
Pleasure.
I just want to hear about MickKarn all day because he's my
(45:25):
hero, but maybe we'll talk aboutthat in a minute.
But thank you so much and I hopewe can play together sometime.
Yeah, absolutely.
We haven't done a gig for awhile.
We have done gigs, but not fora while.
Yeah, thanks again, and we'llspeak to you very soon.
Thank you, all the best.
Bye.
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Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in Finchley in NorthLondon and I'm going to see Mr
Theo Travis, who's a terrificsaxophone player and a flutist
and plays lots of reallyinteresting instruments which
I'm hoping we're going to talkabout.
Talking a little bit about hiscollaboration with some prog
(00:21):
rock greats and his journey.
I'm looking forward to seeinghim.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:43):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level,
Geoff (00:52):
Hi Theo, you all right?
Theo (00:53):
I'm very well, Geoff, nice to see you.
Geoff (00:54):
Thanks for inviting me round.
I love your display ofinstruments.
We'll talk about those in a bit, but some really interesting
stuff there.
Can we start talking about yourbackground, how you got started
and what turned you on to jazzand music in the first place?
Theo (01:06):
As a child I started on the flute.
I was probably aged eight ornine, learned classical flute.
There was quite a lot of musicin the house.
My mum played piano a bit andloved classical music in
particular.
Dad had quite a broad range ofmusic he listened to.
He did have a couple of StanGetz albums, including Live at
(01:30):
Storyville, so I did hear somejazz in the early days.
So there was generally musicaround.
We would go and hear classicalconcerts at the CBSO City
Birmingham Symphony Orchestra inBirmingham where I lived.
But then, probably around theage of 12, 13, I did start
getting into pop music.
T-rex was one of my firstfavourite bands.
(01:50):
The Beatles, dad had the BlueAlbum and I just was obsessed by
the Beatles Blue Album,everything on it.
But then, having got into T-Rex, I suppose we're talking, what
mid-70s, a bit of David Bowie.
And then I got into Yes and thewhole thing, Pink Floyd, King
Grosie.
Geoff (02:09):
Great.
Theo (02:09):
And I had a guitar and I became an avid bedroom guitarist
.
I would just stay in my roomand I had the Beatles Complete
and The Who Complete and I wouldwork out all the chords and I'd
play along and sing along.
As I'm saying, none of this wasto do with flute and saxophone,
really, and where it joined upwas when I was probably 16, 17,
(02:33):
and I got into my first bandwith some friends from school
which was called.
Fundamental Furniture, and thekeyboard player, Hugh Nankivell,
was in the Midland Youth JazzOrchestra so he knew his jazz
and loved jazz and he introducedme to John Coltrane's Afro Blue
Impressions, which he thinksquite a deep end album.
But just the emotional power ofit just hit me.
So we would sometimes jam a bit.
I would take the flute torehearsals.
(02:55):
I was actually playing bass inthe band.
I think I'd graduated frombedroom guitarist to bass player
in the band.
Wasn't very good, but I did doflute on one tune and so I'd
improvise with Hugh inrehearsals.
Interestingly enough, weactually rehearsed in Andrea
Vicari's loft because heryounger brother, Scott Vicari,
(03:17):
was the drummer.
He was 15 or something.
We had to sneak him into thepubs, we would play, but Andrea
had a nice house with a loft andwe would rehearse.
So you knew Andrea from earlyschool.
So I knew Andrea from school days, yeah, and then I
would go to Birmingham RecordLibrary where there was a
fantastic record library and Iwould just take out all these
albums.
There were booths.
There were actually four boothsin the library where you could
(03:39):
take a stack of vinyls and justplay them.
And stack of vinyls and justplay them, and whatever you
liked you'd take home and I'drecord them on cassettes and
then I'd take them.
But I'd go the next day afterschool swap and take more.
So I was an absolute sponge.
I just took it all in and it'ssuch a time of discovery in your
mid-teens when you're justfinding out about music.
My sister actually playedsaxophone so I nicked her
(04:00):
saxophone and started having ago at that then.
Then I had lessons and then Igot really into the jazz thing.
So the sort of obsession withproggy stuff slightly took a
back seat as I got moreTemporarily, of course,
temporarily.
Geoff (04:13):
Well, it all went full circle later.
So how did you learn toimprovise then
Theo (04:17):
I had a teacher, a guy called Mike Reed, who was in
NYJO at the time, and he sort ofintroduced me to some of these
practice books, like there's afamous one called patterns for
jazz and there's an OliverNelson one, patterns.
And then I again I would go toBirmingham library and in the,
in the music section, they had alot of practice books and there
(04:38):
were a lot of I think DavidBaker used to do a series and
again there would be, there'llbe patterns, there'd be theory
ones, the patterns for jazz one,Jerry Coker and someone else.
They give you a phrase and thenthey would just write the
chords out, all the differentchords, and they'd sometimes go
chromatically and sometimes theygo in fourths and sometimes
(04:58):
they go in tones.
So you'd have to remember thephrase and work it out in the
different keys.
Geoff (05:03):
So as far as I remember that was different from a lot of
other books, wasn't it?
You know, yes, because that oneactually you actually had to
think, didn't you actually applyabsolutely cells of music to
other things
Theo (05:13):
Absolutely.
And doing that, I think, wasreally helpful because it
started making you see the chordand instantly come up with
stuff or work out phrases thatyou'd played in other keys.
So it got you more versatile inthe different keys
And flexible of course.
And flexible, that was very useful.
And then I would find moretranscription books.
I did do some transcriptions Iwasn't a big transcription
(05:36):
person because there were somany books available of
transcriptions and I would kindof work out little phrases that
I liked and then I'd probablylearn them.
And then I would kind of workout little phrases that I liked
and then I'd probably learn them.
And then I would look at theJerry Coker patterns for jazz
book and I'd try and play themin the different keys, just
playing through.
And so I'd try and build up afacility of flexibility and a
(05:57):
repertoire.
And then went to the MidlandYouth Jazz Orchestra and I would
, you know, you get your soloand there'd be a bunch of chords
and you'd have to do your best.
But I also, very early on, wasa band leader.
So right from the beginning Ifound people, I'd get together
in the living room and we'd playstandards, just to do that
thing of playing.
I've always liked small groups,things.
(06:18):
I've seemed to be fine atgetting people together.
Geoff (06:21):
Were you, um, composing in those days?
When did you start composing?
Theo (06:25):
Not then it was a little bit later Not much later,
because in the band it wasoriginal music but written by
Hugh, the keyboard player, andMike Chan, the guitarist, and I
was very in awe of their abilityto write songs and I thought
I'd love to do that.
But it took me a while to havea go and it was probably two or
(06:47):
three years, I think, when Iwent to university, I went to
Manchester, studied classicalmusic.
Again, I found big bands inManchester and just went along
and and quite soon I found someguys and put them together and
started this jazz quintet.
So presumably at some stage youmoved to London.
There was a jazz scene sort of on the north west around
(07:09):
the clubs, but it's not London,I mean London's, where everyone
is and London's where it allhappens.
And you know I would listen tothe radio programmes Peter
Clayton's Sunday Night Jazzthing and you know other jazz
things on Radio 3.
And you'd hear about I think itwas the time of kind of Loose
Tubes and you know you'd just be.
(07:29):
You know I had been to RonnieScott's.
I'd come down from Birminghamso I was kind of aware that
London was where I wanted to go.
Geoff (07:36):
So I know that you've played a lot of prog rock.
Can you tell me how you you'relaughing um which is great, can
you tellme how that came about and how
you moving from jazz into progrock
Theo (07:46):
When I was first in London , as I said, I had my jazz band
and quartets and playing aroundet cetera, on the jazz scene
there were a couple of otherpeoples I'd been asked to record
saxophone and flute on recordsfor including one in a studio in
Brixton.
I know exactly when it was.
It was early 1997.
I got a call out of the blue.
I know exactly when it was.
It was early 1997.
(08:07):
I got a call out of the blue.
I pick up the phone.
Someone says hello, my name isMick Karn, I'm a bass player.
Geoff (08:10):
Mick Karn was the bass player from one of my favourite
bands ever called Japan.
Theo (08:14):
Hello, my name is Mick Karn.
His was, I hear, you're asaxophone player.
So he had his group with threeother ex-Japan people Steve
Jansen the drummer, RichardBarbieri the keyboard player and
they had a bunch of work.
They had a little label calledMedium Productions and they had
some work coming up and theyneeded a saxophone player.
(08:34):
I'd been recommended.
Would I be interested?
Was I free?
So I said yes,
Geoff (08:40):
Of course you did,
Theo (08:41):
And what it turned out being was a TV show in the
Netherlands, something calledTwo Meters, a gig at the Astoria
2, Charing Cross Roaddownstairs and a month in Japan,
literally a month in Japandoing a tour with a kind of
multi-artist programme headlinedby this guy called Sugizo who
(09:03):
was in a huge Japanese rock bandcalled Lunacy.
So these were big gigs andabout two or three weeks
rehearsing.
Later on, when I kind of knewhim better, we got to be good
friends actually all of them,particularly Mick actually was
lovely and Steve.
Anyway, later on I said why didyou call me?
There's lots of good saxophoneplayers.
He said well, there were tworeasons.
(09:26):
There seemed to be two reasons,and I'm never sure which is the
real one.
One was that I did this sessionin this Brixton studio and I'd
been recommended by the engineer.
That sounds nice.
The other one was that myname's Theo and Mick is a Greek
Cypriot and he liked the idea ofa Greek geezer on saxophone,
which, knowing Mick, is probablyall a combination.
Geoff (09:46):
Partly true?
Yeah, Probably partly true,Anyway.
Theo (09:48):
I'm not Greek, my parents just like the name, Theodore,
wow.
So we did this rehearsal andthere was another.
So there was me, the three ofthem, and then there was a
guitarist who's gone on to doamazing things, called Stephen
Wilson, who was just the sideman guitarist and I got on very
well with him and ended uprecording on some of his
projects and we had a lot ofmusical interests in common.
(10:09):
It's interesting music.
There was some singing, but notmuch.
So in jazz world we tend tohave a head and solos and a head
, and that's kind of often whatwe do.
This wasn't like that.
This was like the pieces ofmusic were kind of improvised
and then solidified, so theywould sort of improvise and
record it, embellish it andcolour it with textures, and
that was kind of it.
And then you'd kind of learn itand then you'd play it.
(10:32):
So there wasn't an obvious head, solo, head, and there would be
improvising in it in sections.
And I found it quite inspiringbecause it's quite liberating,
because when you're used to aform, any formula, whether it's
head, solos head or somethingelse, it just kind of opens
things up.
And in fact, after thatliberating experience, I then
(10:53):
kind of took it on board thisidea of you don't need a head,
solo head and started thisimprovising trio I had with John
Marshall, Mark Wood and me, andagain the idea was we just
improvise and record and seewhat we.
Again the idea was we'd justimprovise in recordings, see
what we thought.
What was it like?
We went into a studio and did abunch of recordings and the
only preconceived ideas was onelet's keep them shortish, so
(11:14):
they tended to be under sixminutes, anything from two to
six.
And the other preconceived ideais whatever we do, next time we
do something, let's do itdifferent.
Wow.
Whatever we do, next time we dosomething, let's do it
different, wow.
So no chordal anything, nogroove, anything.
Geoff (11:27):
That's fantastic.
I love that
Theo (11:29):
And it worked really well.
So we made an album and it cameout in 33 records.
I'm very proud of it, and thething I loved about the
recordings we did was that somewould be hardcore noise, some
would be incredibly delicate andsome which I was particularly
proud of, being a freeimprovising champ was harmonic,
but not on one chord, not on adrone, because Mark tended to
(11:49):
play the baritone guitar andhe's got a whole kind of
Brazilian music thing.
Geoff (11:55):
There's a huge range in the baritone guitar isn't it
Theo (11:58):
Yes and because it's quite low.
So he would play harmonic.
You know beautiful kind ofguitaristic harmonic sequences
and I would have to ear-roll Imean I haven't got perfect pitch
but I'd have to kind ofear-roll it and kind of follow
it.
And John Marshall sadly nolonger with us was a very good
improviser, really very much acomposer as he played.
(12:19):
So he would listen, sometimesit'd be groove, sometimes it'd
be swing, sometimes it'd be justmade-up rhythms, you know Wow.
So it'd be this huge paletteand we did a tour of the kind of
hardcore improv clubs andsometimes people said this
doesn't sound improvised enoughbecause there's a traditional
free improv which is, you know,noise often and this would go
(12:43):
into harmonic areas which wascompletely freely improvised but
wasn't traditional what freeimprovisers do.
Geoff (12:49):
So when you toured were you playing the record?
like the record?
Theo (12:52):
Well interesting, very good question.
So there were some areas on therecord which could just be a
sound or could be a feel,generally not harmonic point,
tonal area.
Geoff (13:05):
Well, I would have thought that trying to recreate
something that you've donespontaneously would kind of
negate the whole point of it.
Theo (13:13):
It does yes, so generally it would be free, but sometimes
there'd be like sound, even ifit was a case of there'd be a
guitar feel in a certain key, hemight start like that, but it
would go wherever.
I wish we'd recorded them all,all the gigs properly.
We did record quite a few,although I don't know where the
tapes are.
But it is an interestingquestion when you have something
(13:35):
that's a specific set of soundpictures and then you go on to
and, yes, you don't want torecreate them, but at the same
time you want the flavour of thevariety.
So this kind of came from theMick Karn, Steve Jansen ,
everything which we did the tour.
So Steve Wilson had been asideman and I went to his studio
and after that tour I recordedsome things with him.
(13:57):
He's prolific composer andstudio.
I'm a big fan of StevenWilson's work.
I love the fact that he's aproducer that plays and he's I'm
just curious about how heworked in the studio and kind of
what kind of control he wouldtake.
It depends on the project.
So the first thing I did withhim in the studio was two things
(14:17):
actually.
One was playing on some songshe'd already recorded.
He had a band called PorcupineTree and he was recording an
album called Stupid Dream at thetime and he wanted some sax
solos, some flute solos on aboutthree or four songs.
So on those the song wasrecorded.
There was a big open sectionwhere he wanted the sax solo.
(14:40):
So he gave me a recording ofthat and said I want sax solo on
that.
So it was basically a case ofdo a sax solo on saxophone there
.
So it was basic a case of To asaxophone, the big section.
What he would do sometimes islike if I was on a roll he would
just extend the section Mm-hmm,or afterwards he might re jig,
the arrangement.
(15:00):
So flexible in the veryflexible.
That's great.
And that was even on a fixedsong.
The other project was somethingcalled Bass Communion which was
was very ambient, soundexploratory and it was really a
case of bring some instruments,what have you got, let's try
stuff.
And he's very interested insonic possibilities.
So for example, on the firstBass Communion album I took the
soprano and he just said trysomething.
(15:21):
So I would try something and Iwould try some pretty angular
free stuff.
And then he would enjoy slowingit down, reversing it, cutting
it up, mangling it to pieces,putting it through anything and
everything cassette mod typeprocessing, just to see the
sound.
(15:42):
And he'd enjoy sound processingfrom an acoustic source rather
than from a MIDI or electronicsource.
So that was how the BassCommunion thing happened.
There are other albums.
I mean I've recorded a lot withSteve over the years now and
he's generally interested inpossibilities.
So I mean, more often than notI'll bring stuff and he'll say
(16:04):
try something.
And then he might say, trysomething else.
and it's very creative, it's notlike a Steely Dan, no, no I
haven't done one, but like Iimagine they are where it's like
we want this we want this, wewant this way more organic than
that.
It's very organic.
It's very much like trysomething.
Yeah, I like that try somethinghe's amazing producer, and so
you get.
I've had some wonderful thingscome out of the sessions with
(16:25):
Steve, in fact the last albumbut one.
I was telling him about theduduk, which is this beautiful
Armenian woodwind instrument.
I said I've got this thing,that's rather interesting.
And he said, oh, let's try that, let's try it.
So we tried it on some tracksand it ended up on one track.
But then what he sometimes doesis he'll release an album and
then he'll release a kind of boxset, director's cut of the
(16:49):
album.
On the previous album there wasthis one track with the duduk,
but it's like he'll have aBlu-ray of outtakes, all these
other things, or he'll try otherthings.
So it's very creative and veryenjoyable Incredible.
Geoff (17:02):
Are you still in touch with him?
Theo (17:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So he just released an album acouple of months ago which I'm
on quite a bit, and then he'sdoing.
He's in the middle of a worldtour at the moment.
He did four nights at theLondon Palladium right and I saw
him just beforehand.
He said oh, do you want toguest?
It'd be lovely if you gobecause I'm on this.
There's a kind of quite ambientsoprano.
(17:24):
He said, yeah, come on, come on, yes.
So I I popped into the LondonPa equal and played on three
tracks.
Quite often will collaborate oninteresting things, like a year
ago.
Again, I was telling him aboutthe duduk and I, because he's
very into surrounds and he doesa lot of these surround sound
(17:45):
remixes and I said wouldn't beamazing to have duduk and then
like full-on surround sound 5.1soundscapes.
Geoff (17:52):
Wow, yes,
Theo (17:53):
he said that sounds good, so I said let's do it.
So we did it and also I've beendoing these YouTube duduk
ambient.
Geoff (18:01):
I was going to ask you about this actually,
So, so this is related to that.
So I've been doing these YouTubeambient duduk meditation things
.
They're quite popular whenthey're an hour.
Some of them are four and fivehours, aren't they?
Theo (18:13):
Yes, but they tend to.
I don't play for four or fivehours.
They tend to be like 30, 40minutes, yeah, okay.
So I said, Steve, let's, let's,I think it'd be good to do like
an hour with a duduk and thenthe surround sound and then you
do your thing and we did it.
There's a labelI've done some things for the
guy who has released all theKing Crimson material and I
(18:34):
mentioned it to him and he hashad an interesting history with
record labels because heactually signed Sir Karl Jenkins
and released the Adi Amosalbums which were a big popular
crossover thing.
He signed Michael Nyman for thesoundtrack for the piano, which
was a big popular crossoverthing, because it's not just
people that like that artist orthat music, it's like it's just
(18:58):
got a sound that's appealing.
And I thought we were justgoing to release this thing
independently and I was talkingto him about this project.
He went no, I like this, thiscould be a thing.
So, bless him.
He did the full CD Blu-ray sowe've got a physical product of
the Steve Wilson surround soundIncredible and did a thing.
Sad to say, it didn't do thatwell, but it happened and it
(19:21):
came out.
And again.
It was an example of mecollaborating with Steve just
suggesting an idea.
He likes the artistic idea andruns with it.
I love thatidea.
I'd love to work with StevenWilson.
He's a, I'm a huge fan if he'slistening.
Let's collaborate.
Can we talk a bit about yourinstruments thing?
(19:42):
You mentioned the duduk.
Are you able to just give us alittle sample of some of these
things?
Sure, because as we sit here,there's a whole tray of
interesting sticks withdifferent colours on them and
presumably flutes, right?
Yes, flutes.
Geoff (19:59):
There's a soprano sax.
There's a couple of flutes.
There's an alto flute.
Theo (20:04):
Yes, I brought the concert flute, which is probably the
main one Alto flute I love it'sa fourth lower, me too.
Yeah, I like that too.
So it's a kind of lower richer,deeper, slightly more
mysterious sound.
And I really like it and I'vedone a lot specifically on alto
flute.
Then I have a bass flute, whichis a lovely beast.
(20:25):
I tend to only really use it inthe studio, but it's a
fantastic sound.
So this thing, the duduk, I'mfascinated by this thing.
Just tell us all about this.
So it's a woodwind.
It's a very simple, in a way,musical instrument.
It's one piece of wood, alwaysmade from the wood of an apricot
(20:45):
tree, and the reed is a doublereed, a huge double reed, about
four times the size of a bassoondouble reed.
And they are very fragile andquite hard to tune and quite
hard to get.
I actually have to get themfrom Armenia, by post.
They're quite hard to lookafter, they're hard to keep in
(21:09):
tune.
I mean, it looks a bit like abasic descant recorder, doesn't
it?
Yes, it looks like it exactly.
In fact it's simpler, becausedescant recorders, well, they'll
have like two holes on thebottom.
This is just literally eightholes.
So it's diatonic, so it's justthe notes of a scale.
(21:33):
But you have to half hole theholes to make some of the
semitones.
And there's something magicalabout it when it's in the right
hands.
I mean, I'm, you know, verymuch a beginner and learner, but
I'll have a go and play um um,
Geoff (22:17):
Wow, that's lovely.
It's interesting how you'remaking the vibrato with your
cheek.
Theo (22:21):
Yes, so you kind of puff your cheeks out like Dizzy
Gillespie plus.
It's a gorgeous sound.
And that's how you do thevibrato yeah, from the mouth and
the lips.
I mean.
I became aware of dudukprobably 25 years ago because I
was in a band called Gong andthere was another sax player who
loved duduk and he played a lotof it.
(22:44):
But at the time I wasn'tinterested.
I was into Bob Berg, MikeBrecker you know Bob Mintzer,
Stan Getz, Dexter Gordon, allthe jazz players.
I wasn't that interested induduk and it was only really
about 15 to 20 years later.
I got into it.
I think originally through thatsoundtrack, the Peter Gabriel
(23:04):
soundtrack, Last Temptation ofChrist.
When there's a track called TheFeeling Begins, with some
beautiful duduk on it, and Iheard some on on it and I heard
some on the internet and I didget one.
And then, during lockdown 2020,it became my lockdown, one of
my lockdown projects learn thething, work on the thing.
And then I did a load ofrecording in my studio and in
(23:27):
fact, made an album.
Put it into context that theduduk is not normally in, so you
often hear it in.
for example, you knowtraditional Armenian music and,
as I say, on the Peter Gabrielis a bit of crossover.
But you know doing what I doand like I thought, well, it's
an amazing sound.
It'd be nice to try it withsongs.
I think I first heard it on a
Paul
Geoff (23:47):
McCartney used it McCartney Chaos and
Creation.
Yes, Chaos and Creation in theBa Yard.
That's it, Chaos and Creation.
It's, on that, really nice.
And it is also on a DavidSilvian track Darkest Dreaming.
Yes, yeah.
Theo (23:59):
So it has been used in some songs, and it's just
magical, gorgeous.
Geoff (24:05):
I could talk to you all day about this.
I want to hear more about MickKarn, but I probably don't have
time.
Theo (24:10):
I could say one thing that's interesting about Mick
Karn Go on, go on.
Apart from the fact he's lovelyand I loved what he did, he had
a great sound, he had a greattime, he had a great feel, he
had great ideas.
He had no idea what he wasdoing.
He barely knew what the notesof the strings were.
(24:32):
He certainly wouldn't know whatthe notes were up the frets, up
the fretless fretboard.
He just he kind of approachedit in a kind of naive way.
You know, he knew instinctivelyabout music and he knew about
you know time and harmony andfeel but, he had no theoretical
knowledge at all.
He literally just played withhis friends from school and they
(24:53):
put songs together and he'dwork out things.
You know all the stuff that weas jazz musicians study and know
and learn.
You can take all that stuffthat we learn and know as jazz
musicians and throw it out thewindow and have an artist and a
musician as individual, asproficient, as great as Mick
Karn.
Geoff (25:14):
Do you find that also working with more rock musicians
, that you come across that moreoften than jazz?
Theo (25:21):
Oh yeah, totally.
I mean, jazz musicians knowtheir stuff.
It's what we do.
We kind of learn about harmony,we learn about theory.
You know we can generally playin lots of different keys.
We can read chord symbols, rockmusicians generally well, it's
a generalisation but often can'tdo that at all.
They come from the song youknow, maybe playing guitar or
(25:41):
playing piano, maybe using arecording studio to build things
up that they then record andthen recreate.
But they generally don't havethat harmony knowledge and yeah,
I've played with a lot ofpeople who don't have that
theoretical knowledge that jazzmusicians do.
I enjoy it because I have anaffinity with a lot of the music
they will make.
I can think of quite a few jazzmusicians I know who, if they
(26:05):
were in that situation, wouldnot be able to help themselves
from kind of looking down on it,because these people don't know
, some of them won't know thetheoretical knowledge and a
generation that's kind of.
Geoff (26:15):
I know exactly what you mean.
Theo (26:17):
Particularly having the experience with Mick Karn and
people like that, I go yeah,yeah, but that's not.
It's not what's important.
What's important is the music.
And however you get there isfine and in you get there is is
fine and, in fact, sometimespeople can be more original by
not having all this history intheir playing.
And no,
Geoff (26:35):
That's something that I've tried to explore over the
last couple of years, because Istarted a songwriting club which
you were a member of.
How long were you a member ofmy, my club?
Theo (26:44):
For um, it was about 18 months,
So we tried to do stuff thatwas not consciously cerebral.
We tried to do loads ofdifferent things.
You remember,
I do absolutely and it was a really, well, first of all, I
absolutely adored being in thesongwriting club and I've still
got all the songs I wrote and,in fact, probably from some of
the ones, other people did One.
It was super creative.
I think having the differentthemes or the different
(27:07):
disciplines or the differentparameters, throwing you out of
your comfort zone or just makingyou try something that you
haven't done before, but withina supportive group, I think
spurred you on.
And the other thing I found isthat some weeks I would come
with a song that I was reallyproud of I thought would be
really good and I thought I'mgoing to play them, my song, and
it's going to be really good.
And then I'd hear otherpeople's songs and they were so
(27:29):
good them, my song, and it'sgoing to be really good.
And then I'd hear otherpeople's songs and they were so
good, they were so amazing.
I thought, well, I guess mine'sall right and and.
But that would make you think,right, try harder, Theo.
And you kind of would tryharder and then spur you on each
week.
You'd kind of spur you on, andso it was.
It was very interesting andagain for me.
I mean I have done somesongwriting, but not that much,
and I would try things for thesongwriting group and again in a
(27:51):
supportive group of verycreative people.
Geoff (28:03):
So I've made some apps, yes, and I think you know a
little bit about them.
You've experienced experiencedthem.
I asked you to pick a tune toplay on today right what did you
pick?
So I picked 500 Miles High byChick Corea.
It's a tune that I have playedquite a lot on gigs and I always
enjoy playing on it.
(28:25):
It's a tune I tend to approachin a different way to if I was
approaching a classic standard,a Days of Wine and Roses or a
Beautiful Love or All The ThingsYou Are.
Because I think, partly becauseof the feel, the rhythmic feel,
it's a Latin one, it's astraight eights one and it's
often on gigs one that peoplewill build.
So they might start with a halftime sort of cross stick feel
(28:47):
and then they'll go into a sambaor whatever.
So it's often one that youreally can get that forward flow
and the build of energy.
And also I really like thechord sequence.
It's got this reallyinteresting chord sequence where
there's these sort of homechords, the minors, and then
when it goes between them itdoes these interesting kind of
stepwise movements that I findvery satisfying.
(29:10):
And sometimes they're a pair ofchords that seem quite far away
from each other but they're veryclose.
So, for example, the fourth baris a B-flat major and the sixth
bar is a B half-diminished.
They sound like quite differentchords, a major seventh and a
half-diminished, but of coursethe B-flat major, B-flat D-F-A.
The only difference betweenthat and the B half diminished
(29:30):
is you move the root, thesemitone.
There's that great quote whichI'm sure you'll appreciate a
chord is only a chord when thebass player decides what note to
play.
Yeah, and that's exactly whathappens there, because the Bb
slips up to a B.
It's clever, isn't it?
And it happens more than once.
So you've got the A minor, barnine, which goes to an F sharp
(29:53):
half diminished.
And A minor, you've got A, c, eand again F sharp half
diminished sounds miles away.
But if you've got your A minor,you just slip in the F sharp
underneath it.
So you've got these lovelystepwise movements between the
chords,
The interesting one that I always point out is because it
kind of resolves to C minor,doesn't it?
Yes, and then in the last bar.
(30:14):
It goes to B7 altered yes, andif you know about harmony, if
you play C minor over B, B7,that gives you B altered Exactly
.
So what you can do you can stayin C minor and play while the
bass player is playing a, b, youcan still play C minor.
It's just genius.
Theo (30:32):
It is.
It really is it is.
So I love these things aboutthis tune, plus if you add to
that the build.
Ok.
so the intro is kind of gettingin the car and then we've got
gear one, gear two, gear 3 gear4, and I kind of try and build
it in the performance.
But it's just a very it's oneof those standards that's just
(30:56):
very enjoyable to play.
It's probably why people pickit and play it and the
interesting sequence.
So that's why I wanted to dothat tune
Geoff (31:01):
Right .
So here we go.
So um, um, um, um, um.
(33:04):
Oh, that's great.
Theo (33:18):
Thank you.
I love the C minor over B.
It's such a great sound, isn'tit?
Geoff (33:23):
What a great song.
Yeah, how is it playing alongwith the app?
How do you find it?
Theo (33:27):
I like playing along with tracks and have done it forever.
To be honest, whether it's appslike this, which is brilliant
because of the actual quality ofthe playing and the sound, and
everything.
Or I've even, you know, haveplayed along with album tracks.
I remember when I started out Iwould play along with Santana's
Moonflower, which is a greatlive album because there's so
(33:51):
much amazing percussion andenergy and a lot of it is kind
of one chord.
I've done a lot of recording soI'm used to putting on the cans
and playing a lot of two stuffwhich I like.
It's a comfortable environment.
Geoff (34:03):
Did you use the Jamey Aebersold playalongs?
Theo (34:05):
back in the day.
Yes, back in the day I used theJamey Aebersold play-alongs.
I even went to a JameyAebersold course at Goldsmiths
University.
Oh God, when would that havebeen?
Early 80s, I suppose.
Geoff (34:17):
So you got to hear him count in in the flesh One, two,
three, four.
Theo (34:23):
I got to hear him count in in the flesh.
I got to hear him play in theflesh.
It was very prescriptive, butwhat a guy.
I mean what an amazing thingthat was that he started.
I mean there's like 100 JameyAebersold albums.
I mean I have had whatever?
Quite a few of them and therewere some quite interesting ones
.
So the classic standard onesand the Maiden Voyage et cetera
(34:45):
are great.
One I used to like, which isinteresting.
It kind of ties into one ofyour app tracks is.
There's a David Liebman onewhich was pretty out there, it
was kind of Lookout Farm, andthere's some tracks which are
flying all over the place andthere'd be whole tracks which
are I can't remember the name ofthe track.
there'd be a long free one, but,you know, with rhythm section
(35:08):
free so flying about andsometimes I would play along and
literally just try and keep intime with it or lock into the
groove with it or practicescales with it, just so I could
play in time at those sort ofspeeds.
And then because it was freeand the piano would be playing
very much outside the changes,just holding on, and that was
(35:29):
quite an advanced one
Geoff (35:30):
Because you know, I included a free improvisation
yes, I volume four,
Theo (35:36):
four in volume four.
Yeah, I was fascinated to seethat and I did pull it up and I
played along with it and it wasreally interesting because I
play quite a lot of freeimprovised music in different
contexts and different people.
So I was fascinated to hear howthe app free improvisation track
would work.
So I played along with it andthen I thought I know what's
(35:56):
gonna be interesting.
I'm gonna play around with theapp, with the different
instrumentations, the differentgroupings, because when I first
put it on it I played along topiano bass drums, which is
probably the setting I generallyhave.
And then I thought, well, I'lltry pulling the piano out
because you can have thesedifferent options of the
musicians playing on the app.
So I pulled the piano out andput the trumpet in because I
(36:17):
thought you know, trumpet, sax,bass, drums is a kind of classic
combination.
I'll be interested to see whatgoes on.
So I played along with that,which I enjoyed, and did
something quite different.
But I remember thinking thatthe trumpet was quite diatonic
in a way, of what he played.
So then I pulled the trumpetout and played along with the
bass and drums and I playeddifferent stuff to that again,
(36:41):
but all the time, you know, it'squite fresh and refreshing and
the instruction is it's free, soyou can do what you like.
But sometimes when I playedalong, I would just jump into a
different key.
Yeah, because it's like well,this is where I'm playing, yeah,
yeah, and you can play thereand I'm playing here, and that's
what it is.
But it was good and it was funand interesting to do it, along
(37:06):
with the app, and the series ofapps has so many great classic
standards that it wasinteresting to play in another
area as
Geoff (37:14):
So, to finish off, I've got some questions, starting off
with, what'syour favourite album.
Theo (37:21):
I'll give you my favourite jazz album, because that's easy
.
Stan Getz, Sweet Rain 1967.
Stan Getz, Chick Corea, one ofhis first recordings.
Ron Carter, Grady Tate on drums.
I've loved this album for many,many years.
It sounds gorgeous, it soundslike it was recorded yesterday.
The tunes are fabulous Litha,Windows, Con Alma.
(37:43):
Yeah, Stan Getz sounds amazing,it's just perfect.
Yeah, it sounds modern, itsounds fresh, it sounds classic,
it sounds experimental.
Geoff (37:51):
What about in the other world?
In your progressive world.
Theo (37:55):
That's very hard.
In the progressive world.
I'd certainly certainly, Yes,Close to the Edge.
King Crimson, Red or in theCourt of the Crimson King.
I like Brian Eno's On Land.
I like Quadrophenia by The who.
Geoff (38:08):
Right, interesting.
Okay.
So question two is there afavourite musician, alive or
dead, you would like to playwith?
Theo (38:15):
I'd like to play live with David Torn.
I've played with him on recordand we've met, but never live,
and he's a very interestingexperimental guitarist.
I like what he does.
Then there's the obvious PaulMcCartney and Steve Winwood, but
that's less likely.
Geoff (38:31):
You never know.
Is there a highlight of yourcareer?
So far?
Theo (38:35):
There've been many highlights, I guess playing with
some of the great artists who Ienjoyed listening to as a
15-year-old.
I know you played with RobertFripp, didn't you?
Yes, did a lot with Robert Fripp.
We did a lot of live gigs, fivealbums.
One highlight would definitelybe we did a concert at Coventry
(38:55):
Cathedral, literally just a duo,kind of improvised by areas
surround sound.
The new Coventry Cathedral isamazing.
It was an incredible gig andafter the gig Robert looked to
me and went that's the nextalbum and that did become an
album, Live at CoventryCathedral and we didn't edit any
(39:17):
of it.
Amazing, and I remember at theend of the gig I just remember
thinking where the hell did thatcome from?
Because it wasn't even likevocabulary that I'd often done
used.
It was just like one of thosewow moments.
Geoff (39:31):
Just reacting, surely, yeah, reacting.
Theo (39:34):
But in the church, the cathedral context, it kind of
puts you and everything in akind of certain headspace.
Wow, wow.
So that was a special highlight, incredible.
What was the last concert youattended?
I think it was my local jazzclub, actually at The Elephant
Inn in North Finchley.
Ralph Moore, the sax player,was over here doing a tour and
(39:54):
playing locally, so I went alongto that and it was great, guys,
I know.
In the rhythm section.
So yeah, Ralph Moore.
Geoff (40:01):
Fabulous, fabulous.
What would you say is yourmusical weakness?
Theo (40:05):
Probably I can think of two of the many Repertoire.
on standards, I'm not that good.
When you go to a standardssession, I always feel I should
know more.
When I'm fronting it, I cancall the ones that I know, which
makes it too easy.
And probably the other thingI'm not I'm weak at is
practicing.
I get distracted so easily.
I'll play some scales and thenI'll start tidying the room and
(40:28):
looking out the window andlooking at my watch and then
going and looking at email.
So, and I should say that boththese weaknesses that occurred
to me are helped by things likeyour apps.
Because… Good answer, becauseyou've got so many standards,
it's like okay, here they are,just learn the buggers.
Geoff (40:45):
What should I play today?
Theo (40:46):
Just learn one and practicing.
When you're thinking of goingand making yet another cup of
tea, put on an app and play tothe end and then play another
one, so it sort of keeps you inthe room.
So I think it does help forthat excellent,
Good answer.
I love the way you brought theapps into that one! Do you ever
get nervous on stage?
Rarely, but occasionally, either if I'm doing something
(41:09):
very exposed, maybe in anunusual situation, or I'm not
sure what I'm doing.
I mean again, I can think of aparticular time it was a while
ago but when I remember beingnervous there was a big farewell
concert for a great pianistcalled Harold Budd.
He's done kind of experimental,kind of quite naive sort of
ambient music in a way.
(41:30):
He worked with Brian Eno quitea bit and he did a farewell
concert in Brighton, BrightonDome, and it was him and a bunch
of collaborators, reallyinteresting people um Gia Wobble
, John Fox, Bill Nelson, Alex,the Balanescu quartet, anyway,
the whole concert in BrightonDome, big audience, big event,
(41:51):
starts off unaccompanied altoflute and flute itself is is
something.
If you're nervous, yourembouchure goes, alto flute even
more.
Yeah, put yourself in front of1500 people on a piece of music
you don't know very well, yeahand yeah, so I was nervous then.
Yeah, but generally not too bad.
Geoff (42:09):
What's your favorite sandwich?
Theo (42:11):
Easy, cheese and pickle.
Branston
Geoff (42:13):
So many people say that.
Mark Lockheart said thatyesterday exactly the same,
Oh, sorry.
It's a classic.
It's a classic.
It's fine, it's a classic.
What about a favourite movie?
Theo (42:24):
Quadrophenia I was a Who fan.
It's a great album and I lovethe film.
What about a favourite venue?
Ronnie Scott's I love it.
Geoff (42:33):
What about a favourite country or city?
Theo (42:35):
Scottish Highlands.
I love the Scottish Highlandsand I've been there many times,
sort of on the West Coast, manyholidays, love it.
I've also actually taken myjazz quartet up there in a kind
of crazy labour of love.
A few years back now.
but we played on the Island ofSkye, we played on the Island of
Mull, we played in the libraryon Iona, which is tiny and it
(42:57):
was a kind of amazing tour.
One place as a British jazzmusician that is magical and has
always been and whenever I playthere you feel it in your veins
is when you play in New YorkCity.
I remember when I first did it,going into Manhattan on a
Greyhound bus with the band Gongand we played at the Knitting
(43:17):
Factory.
And in fact recently, about ayear or so ago, with Soft
Machine, we played at the CityWinery.
And Manhattan itself is not big, it's a few square miles, and
you stand on stage and you thinkall the greats you know
Coltrane, Miles, Sonny Rollins,Monk, everyone they became
famous in these two square miles.
(43:37):
And you are here, especially ina band like Soft Machine, where
we're playing our own music.
And when you play a solo andI'm thinking I'm in New York
City,
You're soaking up the vibe,aren't you?
You're soaking up the vibe and you're kind of channeling
it.
As a jazz player to play in NewYork City.
It's amazing,
Geoff (43:55):
I didn't really ask you about Soft Machine?
Did you do you compose for SoftMachine, the new
iteration
Theo (44:00):
Yes very much so I'm probably the
main composer.
Well, certainly for the lastfew years, last three albums, we
do about 50% of our neworiginal music some of it's
freely improvised great, a big,big part of what I do
fantastic.
The final question, which I knowyou've been looking forward to,
is what's your favourite chord?
(44:21):
Oh, I love this question.
I've been thinking about thisquestion.
So my favourite chord is achord that is both major and
minor at the same time.
People talk about major beinghappy and minor being sad and
there's this chord that is bothat the same time and I'm
thinking how can that be?
It's incredible.
(44:41):
So my favourite chord is a G6 ora sixth chord, because you've
got your major third at thebottom, so G B, major third, and
with the E at the top it'smajor, but of course it's an E
minor, first inversion.
So it's minor and it's majorand it's sort of emotionally
slightly ambiguous because it'smajor and it's minor, so it's
got this whole kind of worldwithin itself.
(45:03):
And, yes, because the sixthchord does often have that
character, but I think it hasother characters and this
ambiguity thing, and so that'smy favorite.
Fantastic, what a great way tofinish.
I could talk to you all day,but, but obviously we've got to
stop.
But so, Theo, thank you so muchfor your
time.
Pleasure.
I just want to hear about MickKarn all day because he's my
(45:25):
hero, but maybe we'll talk aboutthat in a minute.
But thank you so much and I hopewe can play together sometime.
Yeah, absolutely.
We haven't done a gig for awhile.
We have done gigs, but not fora while.
Yeah, thanks again, and we'llspeak to you very soon.
Thank you, all the best.
Bye.
Announcement (45:45):
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podcast.
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The Quartet Jazz StandardsPodcast is a UK Music Apps
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