September 12, 2025 • 43 mins
Geoff travels to London’s West End to catch up with the legendary jazz guitarist Jim Mullen.
The conversation offers a masterclass in authentic musical development as Jim recounts his journey from Glasgow's jazz clubs to becoming one of Britain's most distinctive guitarists. Approaching his 80th birthday, he reflects on the transformative experiences that shaped his musical identity – witnessing jazz titans like John Coltrane, Ray Brown, and the Oscar Peterson Trio in his hometown during the 1960s.
What sets Jim Mullen apart is his entirely self-developed approach. Never formally taught, he developed his unique playing style through necessity and intuition. Being left-handed but playing a right-handed guitar led to his signature thumb technique, creating a warm, vocal tone that has become his hallmark. "When you play with your thumb, you can only play downstroke," he explains, revealing how this limitation forced creative solutions that ultimately defined his sound.
Jim’s philosophy on improvisation proves particularly illuminating. Unlike many jazz musicians, he never transcribed solos, believing it would trap him in others' vocabularies. Instead, he focused on capturing the essence of players he admired while developing his own melodic approach. "Improvising a solo is really trying to invent an alternative melody," he shares, emphasising continuity of ideas over technical display. By way of example, he improvises to the 1950s Marvin Fisher/Jack Segal standard ‘When Sunny Gets Blue’ accompanied by the Quartet jazz playalong app of course.
The conversation explores his pivotal role in developing British jazz-funk with saxophonist Dick Morrissey, creating a groundbreaking sound that attracted diverse audiences and influenced a generation of musicians. Now in his musical maturity, Jim has embraced jazz standards over complex original compositions, finding profound expression in simplicity: "A good tune does half the work for you."
Whether you're a jazz aficionado, guitarist, or simply appreciate stories of authentic artistic development, this episode offers rare insights from a musician who carved his own path through jazz history. Subscribe to hear more of them.
Presenter: Geoff Gascoyne
Series Producer: Paul Sissons
Production Manager: Martin Sissons
The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is a UK Music Apps production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:01):
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in the West End ofLondon and I'm going to see
someone who I've been lookingforward to speaking to for many,
many months now.
In fact, since I started thispodcast, he was the first guy I
thought of.
Today, it's the great JimMullen, who has been a massive
(00:23):
influence on many people,especially me, and very
supportive throughout the years.
A great guy, wonderful player.
So I'm really looking forwardto speaking to him.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:52):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level
Geoff (01:01):
Jim.
Jim (01:01):
Hey, nice to see you.
I was just thinking.
You know, when you were still abass guitarist before, I think,
before you were playing thedouble bass, right, yeah, and
you used to dip with Lawrenceand my electric quartet,
remember I did yeah.
And then we did a gig insomewhere in Bavaria, yeah, and
you did the gig with GeorgieFame.
Right.
And then you went over todouble bass.
I think after that was yeahright,
(01:22):
Good .
.
So can we start talking a bitabout how you got into jazz and
what was the first jazz thatyou've heard that kind of
inspired you to play?
So when I first started playing jazz, the only part that
I could really relate to werethe bass parts, because they
played the fewest number ofnotes.
You know, getting a lot of gigsas a bass player in those days.
Actually, you know, my firsthero was Ray Brown.
I was very fortunate that Jazzat the Philharmonic used to come
(01:45):
to Glasgow every year.
So I mean I saw everybody youknow Ellington, Basie several
times, Ella Fitzgerald, SarahVaughan, Oscar Peterson Trio
with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen.
Exciting.
and they were.
You couldn't get past them atone time, you know.
I mean Oscar still had allthese his virtuosity, the double
octave things and flying aroundridiculous tempos but, you
(02:09):
couldn't take your eyes or yourears off of Ray Brown because
his grooves were so killing.
And this was in a cinema and thePA.
there was two speakers thissize, one on the other side of
the stage, one mic on the pianoand one mic for Oscar to talk
into.
That was it.
Nothing on the bass, he didn'teven have a bass amp, Ed Thigpen
(02:29):
.
But I mean just the way theyplayed together, you know, it
was fantastic.
I mean I was absolutelytransfixed and, like all great
concerts I've ever been to, Icouldn't remember any of the
music afterwards because I wasso transported that all I could
think of was what an amazingfeeling that it happened, you
know.
And actually I saw Coltraneplay in Glasgow, Did you?
When I was 16.
he played in Glasgow in 1960and it was the quintet with Eric
(02:53):
Dolphy.
Geoff (02:54):
Funny you should say that because I interviewed Alan
Skidmore and he saw Coltrane onthe same, it must have been the
same trip in Walthamstow's TownHall.
And he said he played one tune.
Is that right, oh?
Jim (03:05):
He played two tunes in Glasgow.
He played Favourite Things andNaima, oh right, and Dolphy was
there and Dolphy was doing allthese bird impressions, you know
tweet, I don't mean CharlieParker, I mean birds, you know,
tweeting around and a lot of themusicians got walked out doing
this, you know, doing this, youknow.
But I remember the intensity ofit, you know it was in this.
(03:27):
Glasgow had a great opera houseat that time called the St
Andrew's Halls.
A week after Coltrane playedthere it burnt down and it was
in the round.
So all the drummers were behindElvin, you know, and there was
50 drummers behind him.
It was amazing, I mean, it waslike a trance, you know, it was
like a mantra, you know.
Yeah, you know the way thatthey played things like
Favourite Things, you know.
And Coltrane's sound always gotme.
You know how beautifullylyrical it was, you know.
(03:49):
And just about that time, maybea year or two later, an
American naval base came to theHoly Loch in Scotland.
Suddenly, you'd see all theseblack sailors in sailor suits on
weekend passes in Glasgow, youknow.
And there was a little jazzclub called The Cell, you know,
it looked like a cell actually,you know.
Suddenly these guys came intothe clubs and started sitting in
(04:11):
borrowing saxophone.
That was kind of exciting, youknow.
But the Jazz at the Philharmonicwas, I suppose, my first
introduction to the real thing.
I think when you hear somethingthat's incredibly moving, it
stays with you.
I can't remember any of thedetails of the music at all, but
I can remember the feeling, youknow, and going away and
thinking about it and thentrying to play some of that, the
(04:31):
sort of tempos that they played, that and stuff.
You know, none of it was polite.
Everything was like really lifeor death.
You know, I also liked howdemocratic jazz was.
You know, everybody has a partto play.
It's a team effort.
I've always liked that.
I've always tried to have thatin any bands that I've had.
Geoff (04:50):
Well, I'm just going to say you gave me such support
when I started in London.
You were so supportive and youwere so encouraging.
Jim (04:58):
Well, that's what you do.
That's what people do with me.
Geoff (05:00):
Well, everybody's like that yeah that's right, but you
passed it on.
You passed it on.
Yeah, that's right it's just avery supportive atmosphere that
you create.
I think that's what it is.
Jim (05:09):
Well fortunately.
I had a lot of that, althoughwhen I was playing the double
bass in Glasgow, to begin with,I was getting hell from all the
other players because I was like15 and they were all like in
their 40s and I and I didn'tknow that you're supposed to
stand in the one place betweenthe drums and the piano I'd be
wandering across the stage withthe bass, you know, talking to
people.
They'd say, hey, you get backthere, you know.
(05:30):
And then I'd be speeding up andslowing down.
I just wasn't aware of that.
So I'd go home thinking whatthe hell have I done?
You know, until you're madeaware of these things, you don't
do anything about it.
So fewer, yeah.
And I sort of realized maybeI've got the time thing a little
better now and I've alwaysregarded myself as being an
ensemble player.
You know I have to make what Ido fit.
Plus, there were some reallygood players in Glasgow at that
(05:51):
time.
There was a great piano playercalled Kenny Crawford who went
to Australia.
actually.
If this guy played like WyntonKelly, really swinging, great
voicings, I used to ask him toshow me voicings on the piano
and I I'd try and do them on theguitar.
The problem with the guitarwhen you've got close voicings
on the piano.
You're like this on the guitar,you know.
So I had to kind of compromiseand find what were the great
notes in those chords.
(06:12):
You know, because a three-notechord can be a fantastic chord,
you know, it doesn't have tohave all the information and
learning how to accompany andjust figuring, figuring how to
be a team player, you know.
Yeah, that was it.
And I've never looked back.
Geoff (06:24):
You must have started listening to guitar players
around this time as well right.
Jim (06:27):
Well, yeah, although you could only get the West Coast
guitar players in those days.
You couldn't get, for instance,East Coast, you couldn't get
Blue Note or Riverside.
You could get ContemporaryPacific jazz.
So you were getting all theguys that had gone to LA to be
in the studio bands, people likeBarney Kessel, Tal Farlow,
Mundell Lowe, all those guys.
Geoff (06:47):
Was that because of a distribution of records or
something?
Jim (06:49):
There was something like that and that's another thing
with these American sailorsbeing stationed in Scotland, the
local pawn shops would haveBlue Note records on.
These guys had got rid of somerecords to get some cash, you
know, on the weekend pass.
So I suddenly saw thesefantastic covers.
You know weekend pass, so Isuddenly saw these fantastic
covers.
You know there's amazing.
You know, Ready for Freddy, youknow, and Wayne Shorter
records, Herbie Hancock, youknow.
(07:10):
So I was getting these thingsfor like 10 shillings or
something.
You know they were playable.
You know, I'll never forget Ibought Empyrean Isles, you know,
the quartet one, One FingerSnap and all those tunes on
there.
I got it when it came out, theyear it came out 64 I think it
was, and taking it home and justlike being pinned to the wall
with the kind of intensity.
Geoff (07:32):
So what about learning to improvise?
Did you transcribe things?
Jim (07:36):
Never transcribed in my whole life.
Right, because I felt that thatwas cheating in a way.
You know, because what Irealised early on about
improvising is you want to takethe flavour of what you're
getting from whoever's Miles orColtrane or Cannonball or
whatever, but I don't want totake their licks because then
I'm going to be trapped.
So how do you get the flavour?
Trial and error.
Being a bass player to beginwith, although I was playing
(07:58):
guitar at home, on my bass I wasreally figuring out the kind of
geography of songs you know.
There were no teachers, so theonly teaching I could get, I
mean, I'd bug the piano playerto show me some of his voicings,
which he did and I'd go backand get my wee guitar and try
and figure out what they were.
Geoff (08:13):
So what's your knowledge of chord and harmony at this
stage then
I could hear it.
I couldn't identify it in termsof you know this.
I mean, in a sense WesMontgomery was the same.
Wes couldn't read a chord soloor something, but he could hear
it.
I've analysed those WesMontgomery chord solos.
I mean they're so hip.
I mean guitarists to this daydon't play chord solos like Wes.
(08:34):
He really knew everything aboutharmony.
But I think it's just it'sidentifying these things.
I'm still trying to identifysounds I hear.
I don't always recognise firsttime, just trying to stay on top
of what.
I'm still trying to identifysounds I hear.
I don't always recognise firsttime, you know, just trying to
stay on top of what I'm hearing,you know.
And trial and error.
Do you still get surprised by things that you
hear?
Jim (08:52):
Oh yeah, all the time, usually by how badly I'm playing
.
You know no.
Geoff (08:56):
I don't mean yourself, I mean from listening when you
hear other people, do you hear?
Oh, that's a harmony I don'trecognise, or something like
that.
Jim (09:02):
Oh yeah, especially all the chords on chords thing.
You know, the minute the bassplayer takes another note,
you're looking at a wholedifferent thing, you know.
Geoff (09:09):
A chord is only a chord when the bass player decides
which note he's playing.
Really yeah, which chord thatis.
Jim (09:14):
That's right yeah, but beyond all that, you know, I
wasn't really thinking aboutsort of technical things.
I mean, I did a lot of writingin my earlier days.
You know, I I think I've got120 tunes published.
Trying to put your thoughts inorder.
You know, that's where writingcomes in.
It forces you to make decisions.
Wayne Shorter has a great quote.
He says when you improvise, youcompose quickly, when you
(09:35):
compose, you improvise slowly.
Geoff (09:37):
That's a great quote, Wonderful really profound
actually.
Jim (09:39):
He came out with some great quotes like that.
You know, when you're writing,you're weighing up the weight of
every single note.
That's right.
Is that right?
Should that be shorter?
Should that be longer?
Should that, should that tieover?
And when you're improvising,you're flying through, you're
not thinking anything.
Yeah, and that's.
I learned something that waytoo.
But when you're improvising,you know you're going with the
flow.
You're thinking about somethingelse.
Rather than trying to make awonderful invented melody,
(10:01):
you're just trying to keep atrain of thought going.
You know, I'm still trying tokeep that going, actually, you
know sometimes it works as youget older, I mean I'm 80 this
year, in a few months.
Your perspectives change, youknow, whereas you know 20, 30
years ago I really wanted toplay up my tunes and I was very
influenced by John Scofield inthose days.
(10:21):
Yeah, so I've got a lot of veryScofield-y type things, you
know, and just going for thatkind of excitement too.
But then I realised at somepoint that's not me, you know,
that's him.
Now I can kind of takeSchofield or leave him,
especially the sound, that kindof slightly metallic, quite hard
.
That bothers me a little bit now.
(10:42):
It didn't before.
You know, know.
I mean now I'm really intoreally good tunes and there's so
many of them.
You know a good tune does halfthe work for you.
You know you play it properly.
The atmosphere's right there.
You know you never get oldenough to know all the great
tunes you know.
But I mean most of my gigs noware playing standards, maybe
slightly rearranged orreharmonised, something, you
know, some extra harmony in it,but just because they're so
(11:03):
great.
And for me now it's aboutplaying great tunes and nice
grooves.
Autumn in New York is a swingand all that kind of thing.
Geoff (11:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah, because you've always done that, haven't
you?
Jim (11:11):
I have.
I like the idea of playing aballad with a double feel
because it gives you a longsequence.
Yeah, so you've got a lot ofspace.
You used to play some EarthWind and Fire, didn't you?
That's right.
Geoff (11:30):
After the Lover Has Gone, After the Love Has Gone, so
you've always taken sort of very, sort of diverse tunes.
And well, that was part of jazz, wasn't it?
You know, I mean to takefamiliar material and do
something differently.
Yeah, absolutely So, obviously, it's well known that you play
with your thumb.
You play the guitar with yourthumb, would you say.
First mistake Because you'releft-handed, aren't you?
Jim (11:46):
I am playing right-handed.
That was my second mistake.
When you play with your thumb,you can only play downstroke.
You can play with the flesh ofthe thumb.
You can't do it upstrokesbecause that's the nail and that
would be a horrible clicky.
The nice thing about playingwith your fingers is you get a
warmth.
I mean, I like the idea of, uh,sounding almost vocal.
The reason I play with my thumbis because when I started
(12:08):
playing right handed, although Iwas left-handed, I remember my
handwriting fell apart.
I was getting hell from theteachers, Really?
Mullen.
What's this?
What do you call this?
Sorry, you know, because theleft side of the brain deals
with the right side of the bodyand vice versa.
So whatever I was doing, it wasspaghetti in there.
You know, all the signals werebeing crossed.
My mum was left-handed also, butshe told me when she was at
(12:31):
school you weren't allowed to beleft-handed.
They used to tie her left handbehind her back you talk about
child abuse and she was forcedto write with her right hand.
Her handwriting never recovered.
That's awful To the day shedied.
She died when she was 96, itwas still a scrawl.
She'd send me birthday cardsand stuff.
You know, really struggling tomake out what she was writing.
You know, I didn't really thinkabout it.
I was just too stupid torealise if you're left-handed
(12:53):
you'd be playing this way.
You know what it meant was.
I would be holding a pick,trying to play something really
hands, you know, just because Ihad no proper technique to hold
it or anything and I just gottired of looking for it on the
floor and I had no techniqueanyway.
So I carried on with my thumb,which I had no technique, but at
least I had a sort of intimate,more intimate control of where
(13:13):
my finger went.
Geoff (13:15):
But of course the downstrokes means that there's
lots of hammering and pulling inthe left hand.
Hammer-ons and pull-offs In theleft hand, yeah all the time um
.
Jim (13:22):
You can't quantify it you know no but for me it's about
trying to keep up the kind ofrhythmic momentum of the thing,
but just try and keep it flowing.
Basically, you know, yeah, butI'm stuck with it.
I mean it's too late, way toolate now for me to do anything
about it.
I tried a couple of times yearsago, but it was still hopeless
and I couldn't do anything.
This way, I tried that too,absolutely hopeless.
(13:43):
And then you think about itthis hand is doing all the work,
yeah, making all the notes, youknow, making all the chords,
because of the guitar.
Nothing is laid out for youlike, yeah, you have to make
that thing happen, yeah, and youtry and do that here.
This hand is absolutely useless, you know.
So I realized I had to be thisway.
I tried to pick again, you know, slowly, no, not happening.
So there's a lot of Brazilianmusicians in London and I went
(14:05):
to this one guy lives, lives upin West Hampstead.
His name is Gui Tavares, GuitarVirus, I call him.
The inversions that theBrazilians use is completely
different to what the NorthAmericans are using.
You know, they use a lot ofthings with displaced bass notes
.
You know, when I'm doing mydodgy Scottish Samba, he said
stop.
I said what he said you'reletting.
(14:26):
I said isn't that what you'resupposed to do?
He said, no, you're supposed todampen them all.
And also, you're using yourfingers, you're using your nails
.
I mean, I realised right away.
I mean there may be a culturaldivide that's too wide for me to
cross.
He says first of all, there'shundreds of rhythms and they've
all got names and you cansuperimpose any one of them at
(14:47):
any point when you hear it theright thing to do you any point
when you hear it the right thingto do.
Geoff (14:51):
You've chosen to play When Sunny Gets Blue, right,
yeah, so just think about thefirst few chords of that and
ideas that you might use.
That second chord may not bepresent in this version.
Jim (15:10):
What is the second chord there?
Geoff (15:12):
The second chord would be just a C7 probably wouldn't it,
I'll do whatever it is Right.
So we're going to have onechorus, chorus of Sunny Gets
Blue, within last eight years ofproduction no mistakes.
(15:49):
Thank you, thank you so.
Thank you, terrific, wow,trying to make sense of your,
(18:09):
your left hand and youring andyour.
I gave up on that a long timeago.
How did it feel like to playwith that?
Jim (18:15):
Yeah, I mean I've done lot of t hings with recording over
backing tracks and stuff in thepast and while it makes you play
carefully which is notsomething you normally think
about when you're playing you'rejust going for it, but you have
to be careful because you haveto make it fit with something
that's already there.
Geoff (18:30):
So when you're playing, you're not thinking of licks,
are you no?
What's going through your mindas you're playing.
Jim (18:37):
Well, I always felt that you know, improvising a solo is
you're really trying to inventan alternative melody, yeah, and
to do that there has to be athread of continuity for a start
.
That's why, just sometimesgetting a good opening phrase,
yeah, well, you did that.
Just then I noticed that itgives you a kickstart to
actually continue the line.
(18:57):
It may not be great, sometimesyou get lucky and it all flows
beautifully and you think, oh, Ididn't mean that, but I like it
.
It's not an exact science, butif you can get a nice kickoff,
it doesn't mean like jumping infuriously but to find something
nice that creates a nice littlestart to it.
You can continue that in orderto try and keep the continuity.
(19:17):
I mean, I've thought aboutmelody a lot in my life.
Melodies are essentially verysimple things, hardly any really
complicated melodies.
They're simple but they'reprofound.
You know, that was one of thereasons why I recorded Nessun
Dorma once with my organ trio,because I just thought that
melody with all these minor 9,you know it's a miracle, oh
(19:46):
yeah.
(20:06):
I mean, I always loved that.
I remember when Nessun Normawas at the top of the pop charts
in 1990.
Right Football Italia.
England got to the final.
I think Gary Lineker won theGolden Boot.
Pavarotti number one in thecharts, you know.
Everywhere you were going.
You were hearing, and that'swhat I love about Italian opera
it's so soulful, but it's melody, isn't it?
Geoff (20:27):
It's melody, Big fat melodies, and really soulful.
Jim (20:31):
you know it's packed with these big juicy melodies, you
know.
Geoff (20:35):
Can we just talk briefly about funk and the sort of
evolution of the British sort offunk scene which you were kind
of part of.
I remember coming to see youwith Morrissey Mullen at the
Half Moon in Putney.
Jim (20:45):
We used to do it every Tuesday for years.
We made more money on that gigI think I made it in any gig
Right.
I we made more money on thatgig than I think I made on any
gig Right.
I still struggle to make thatkind of money now.
Yeah, when Dick and I gottogether, when the Average White
Band were hitting it big, Imainly knew Alan Gorey and Onni
McIntyre.
Alan was the main bass playerand vocalist and Onnie McIntyre
was the guitarist, and I knewMalcolm Duncan and Roger Ball,
(21:08):
the two sax players, and theworld was imploding around them.
They were making a fortune.
It was a world hit, one ofthose songs that just went
everywhere, you know, and theyall got a piece of it as well.
So they all bought houses offof that one song.
The Average White Band came outall wearing kind of white stuff
and playing all their greatstuff and going down a storm.
(21:30):
And we were playing in thesouth to black audiences and
they were going down a storm.
That almost never happens inthe States, you know.
Anyway, they were crossing overbig time and their record was
slowly, you know, by the timethey got from east coast to west
coast, it was a hit number onealbum and single.
You know, Pick up the Pieces,and I just realised this was the
(21:51):
big time you know.
So, Pick up the Pieces.
Geoff (21:52):
And, uh, I just realized this was the big time you know
so Morrissey Mullen was this isyour way of getting into that
scene
because, uh, Malcolm Duncanphoned me and said here's Dick
Morrissey's number.
You know, I think you guysshould play together or
something.
You know, give him a call.
And Dick was living about amile away from me.
I was in South Wimbledon, hewas in Tooting, Tooting Beck, I
think and we met in this pubover a pint of Guinness and Dick
(22:15):
said to me he had just leftthis band, if it's one of these
rock bands with a horn section,you know.
He said to me, man, I'll tellyou what I'd like to do.
You know those CTI albums with,like Stanley Turrentine and
George Benson?
And I said, yeah, yeah, it'slovely.
And The Crusaders, yeah, thatkind of music you can still play
(22:36):
kind of bebop over it, butyou've got a backbeat, so it
takes it away from thesplangolang thing.
Anyway, he came round to where Iwas staying in this little flat
that's now been demolished, andI had no money and I didn't
sign on, which was really stupid, because they tried to get me
for tax a couple of years later.
I actually survived by sellingmy priceless record collection
(22:57):
and just buying, you know,surviving on cheese sandwiches
and a couple of pints of beer upat the.
But what I did in that period Ididn't play any gigs for almost
two years.
There was a pub in Wimbledon upon the South Common called the
Hand in Hand and there was alittle Irish Wimbledon up on the
South Common called the Hand inHand and there was a little
Irish band played in there everyWednesday or Thursday playing
(23:18):
jigs and reels.
So I got my acoustic guitar,which I still had, and went up
and learned all those tunes andplayed with them.
(23:44):
It was great because it kept mystuff, you know.
So did you know that stuff from being in Scotland?
Jim (23:49):
No, I kind of related to it .
I used to play folk music as akid Right and things like you
know that stuff from being inScotland.
No, I kind of related to it.
I used to play folk music as akid Right and things like you
know.
That's amazing.
(24:15):
Whoa, you know those tunes.
You know that's jazz, isn't it?
Well, it's jazz, and stricttime music as well.
You know, you can't fluff it uprhythmically, You've got to be
right on it.
I mean, nothing was writtendown in those days.
They only survived because theywere great and people liked
them.
You know, in a way that's agood test for all music really.
It only survives if people likeit and it's good, it's strong.
That's why standards I oftenthink about.
(24:37):
Nobody knows that most of themare show tunes.
Nobody remembers the shows.
You only have to look in theReal Book to see where the show
was.
Who remembers the show that IGot Rhythm came from All of
those things.
Playing these kind of gigs gotyou back into playing and
started yeah, kept me picked youout of that because I wouldn't
have been playing otherwise.
You know, they've been justlanguishing you know right.
Geoff (24:58):
And then what about Morrissey Mullen?
How did that?
Uh, what were your first stepsinto, into breaking out with
mosswick Morrissey Mullen?
Jim (25:04):
I got together.
I had a few tunes.
First of all, Malcolm Duncaninvited us out to the States to
record an album in New York withthem, because they were riding
so high.
Atlantic Records was looking todo anything they wanted because
they had a big hit on theirhands, you know, and they were
very, very focused.
They worked really hard in thestudio.
They really put the jigsawpuzzle together very carefully.
(25:25):
It all worked great.
Plus, they had Arif Mardinproducing them, one of the great
producers you know.
Geoff (25:32):
So you went out to America and you did the first
Morrissey Mullen album with theAverage White Band.
That's right.
What was originally supposed tohappen was it was meant to be
Steve Gadd, Richard Tee andwho's the six-string bass player
, Anthony Jackson.
Aye, it was meant to be them.
Dick and I were like playingwith our heroes, you know,
bricking it, you know.
So we had a rehearsal at MollyDuncan's basement before we went
(25:55):
into the studio I'd scribbledout some chord parts and they
made it so easy for us becausethey had a band sound.
You know they still had SteveFerrone at that time, you know.
Tried the tunes out with them.
It sounded great.
We thought I wish we were doingit with you.
And he says, yeah, so.
And he said, yeah, so do we.
So we actually cancelled SteveGad, Richard Tee and Anthony
Jackson and did it with theAverage White Band because we
(26:16):
were really worried, just inorder to feel comfortable, you
know, not to be shitting it.
You know we chickened out,probably the only chance that I
got to play with these guys, butso we did it with them.
We did a recording on a fourtrack or something at Molly's
studio and I took it away withme and I kind of timed
everything and then edited itdown to manageable, you know,
(26:36):
because when you've got blowinginstrumental things.
It can be anything between fiveand ten minutes.
So I got it down to about five,six minutes kind of thing, you
know and did a lot of prep andthen went into the studio
Atlantic Studios Gene Paul theengineer, Les Paul's son, Arif
Mardin was there, Ahmet Ertegun,all the head honchos and we did
(26:57):
it and they were like, hey, man, we've got to do business with
you guys.
So doing the talk and the talk,you know.
Unfortunately, reality kickedin and although it came out and
it got great reviews in Cashboxand Billboard, they put it on a
subsidiary label called Embryoand the Embryo label was thrown
down the toilet within about sixmonths.
So our career also went downthe toilet at that point
(27:20):
But that was the start ofMorrissey Mullen right, that was
, that was how you.
you had something to build.
Jim (27:24):
Well, Dick said to me look, I'm going back to London
because he had already had threeor four kids.
You know, were you thinkingabout moving there?
I was thinking of, yeah, right,but what decided it for me?
Against it for me was my wife,not Zoe, but my first wife,
Lorna, who was in the rag trade.
She was getting offered all thework.
So that's when I decided I cameback and Dick said let's do
(27:48):
some gigs.
So we got various rhythmsections.
Some of them weren't hopelessBecause at that time there
weren't a lot of drummers whodid all the styles.
You hardly had a jazz drummerwho could funk it up.
So we tried that and found outit wasn't going to be
straightforward.
But then we did get good guysand ended up with really good
guys like Neil Wilkinson, PeteJacobson, people like that.
(28:09):
The only gig we could get tobegin with was at the Bull's
Head in Barnes, because Dick wasalready well-known there.
He'd played there since he wasa boy, you know, and all the
gazers with the pints and thesort of folded arms and all
sorts of stuff.
They weren't happy about thisat all, you know, because they
knew Dick was the Boy Wonder hewas called actually, you know,
it's a great beb beep-ops, youknow, fiery beep-ops there.
(28:30):
So we were getting a lot offlack, you know.
But then over the next I thinkwe were doing one a month or two
a month there over the next fewmonths it all started changing.
Suddenly the ones who had theirarms folded unfolded their arms
, you know, and started sort ofgetting something out of it.
And then a lot of younger peoplecame along and that was the key
, because suddenly we're gettingreal mixed crowds.
(28:52):
Because you know, the jazzthing was always for old guys,
yeah, leather patches on theblazers and stuff, you know.
Now it was everybody, young,young white kids, old, black
people, you know real mix, youknow.
Yeah, we had that.
It got going.
So we're doing six, sevennights a week up and down the
country, you know, not making afortune but making quite nice
money.
You know that on for 15 years.
Then Dick's health starteddeteriorating.
(29:14):
He never looked after himselfand that was a sad end,
unfortunately.
Geoff (29:18):
Very sad, but that was the beginning of the Brit funk.
in some ways, wasn't it?
That was what you were doingthere, but you've always been
into that music and you've kindof carried it on, haven't you?
As the years went on
Jim (29:30):
Not so much now, actually, Haven't you?
As the years went on?
Not so much now actually.
I mean, I love that music, butI did find after a while that
it's formulaic.
I quite like the idea of musicnot being formulaic.
Geoff (29:41):
Which brings you back to standards, of course, doesn't it
?
The organ trio, yeah.
Jim (29:44):
Depending on who you're playing with.
The sky's the limit.
And I get to play with goodguys and the sky is the limit.
So it's exciting for me,whereas the funk thing it's a
formula, you know, and Iremember reading something that
John Schofield said.
He says I just heard onebackbeat too many, although he's
still doing a lot of thatbecause he has to.
Geoff (30:09):
I've got some questions to finish off, but just before
that I just want to ask youabout song quotes in solos.
Jim (30:15):
That was Dick got me into that.
I mean not deliberately, heused to do it.
I mean, Dick was amazing.
You know we'd be playing, I hadno concept of quoting.
You know We'd be playing awayand Dick would suddenly quote
some really profound classical.
You know, things likeRachmaninoff, that kind of thing
he'd quote, and a rhythmchanges or something he would
(30:38):
also do, that thing that Birddid, which was which he quoted
in What is This Thing CalledLove?
But the only thing is you haveto change the last note.
Why do you do that?
He said because it lightens themood.
(30:59):
He said he says because jazzcan be a tough math test for a
lot of people.
All these notes flying around.
Sometimes you throw in a quote,especially one that they'll all
recognise, and it cracks theenamel.
People start smiling.
They often don't know what itis, but they recognise it.
So it made me aware of that.
Now, unfortunately, it's avirus.
It's very hard to get rid ofonce you get it.
(31:21):
So I find myself doing it morethan I should be actually these
days Right.
Should be actually these daysRight right.
Geoff (31:26):
Sometimes they just pop out without you even thinking
about it, right?
Jim (31:29):
Well, I mean, sometimes your natural phrasing can just
be like something else.
Yeah, yeah, so that can happen.
It is a virus.
That's great when there arepeople, people like all the
musicians that are going now,like Bill Le Sage.
He could do a whole solo thatwas just a string of quotes from
beginning to end.
Geoff (31:47):
Okay, I've got some questions I ask everybody.
Some of them will be easy toanswer, some of them may not.
So the first question is what'syour favourite album?
Jim (31:56):
I don't think I can have the luxury of a favourite album.
Actually, there's a lot ofthings that I keep going back to
Here's to Life.
You know the Shirley Horn thing.
I think that's a masterpiece,but also Coltrane Ballads.
There's a Kenny Burrell, JohnColtrane album.
I don't know whether you knowthat one, whether you do Freight
Train.
Kenny Burrell matches Coltranein that album and he really
Kenny Burrell was great.
I found out later that Rudy VanGelder got every guitarist that
(32:20):
he recorded to use this ampthat he had in the studio.
So Kenny Burrell, Grant Greenand all the other guys, they've
all used that amp and the soundthat Kenny Burrell gets out of
this amp amazing, and I wastalking to Peter Bernstein about
that.
He loves that record as welland he really checked that sound
out because his sound is quitesimilar to that.
Actually A wonderful rich, fatsound.
Geoff (32:41):
But that doesn't come from the amp.
Surely that's in your fingers.
Jim (32:44):
It's a combination.
The amp helps If you've got anamp that's sensitive to what
you're trying to do.
Geoff (32:50):
There's another something that pops into my mind is you
remember you did an album withme Pop Bop, yes which was my
quartet album of playing poptunes as swingy tunes, right,
you turned up to the studio withjust the guitar, right, and you
plugged straight into thesoundboard and that was you.
I'll never forget that
Jim (33:08):
When I was with Brian Auger in the early 70s, he had a deal
with an Italian amplificationcompany called Davely and they
got all this gear.
And he got all this gear for me, you know, effects and pedals
and stuff.
And there was, there was thisthing.
It was on four legs, it waslike something out of
Thunderbirds Are Go, I tell you,and it was a four octave
divctave divider.
Can you imagine what fouroctaves sound like together?
(33:31):
You know the one you're playing, one above, one below and one
below that, right down thebottom end of the piano you play
a Charlie Parker tune, the fouroctaves, it's like the Doomsday
Machine.
And then the other half of itwas all repeat echo, where you
could play da-ba, play withyourself all night.
And there was also instrumentaltone things you could choose.
You get bassoon, bass clarinet.
(33:54):
So for about a year I was asound effects salesman.
I call them talent boosters.
Well, anyway, it broke down onenight and I was just left with
the guitar and the amp and itsounded like and that's when I
realized no man, you gotta get agood sound before any, it's
through any pedal.
In fact, I stopped all thepedals after that.
Yeah, you know, no more pedals.
(34:15):
If you get a good sound, youcan use it for everything you
know.
Yeah, I mean, George Bensondoesn't change his sound, for
you know, Eric Gale didn't healways had that great sound and
he was playing a big guitar likean L5 or something I
Geoff (34:26):
I mean I can hear it in here.
You've got an arched top on yourlap here and it's the sound
that's coming off of it.
Jim (34:32):
Absolutely.
You can't duplicate that.
Geoff (34:34):
It's in your fingers, isn't it?
Jim (34:36):
Yeah, and on a solid you can't quite get that.
Geoff (34:39):
So question number two, is there a favourite musician,
alive or dead, that you wouldlike to play with or would like
to playwith or would have like to have
played with
Jim (34:49):
How many have you got I?
Mean, yeah, loads, just briefly, One or two I'd like to play
with.
I mean I'd love to have playedwith Wynton Kelly, some of the
New York guys I'm a big fan ofLarry Golding's on piano and
organ.
I'd love to have done a sessionwith Coltrane or something,
just to hear or something justto hear just the way he played
the melody Donny Hathaway.
I'd love to have played withDonny Hathaway.
(35:10):
He's my.
In fact, I can hardly bear toplay his records because they're
so moving, you know, and it'soverwhelming it is incredible
song.
And then we heard Stevie in thePark in the summer.
He was incredible.
He's in his 70s now.
You know, one overjoyedDa-da-dee, da-da-dee, da-da-dee,
da-da-da.
He did that and he didn'tchange the key.
(35:30):
And it changes, it goes up atone at the end.
And the park was packed withStevie Wonder fans.
I'm glad.
Geoff (35:37):
That's just across the road from here where we are now,
That's our garden.
Next question is there ahighlight of your career?
Jim (35:45):
A few highlights.
I guess, yeah, Just doingfestivals with my own group.
I mean, I've had various groupsover the years and I've still
got my organ trio with MikeGorman and Tristan Mayo, but
when I had my quartet withGareth Williams, Mick Hutton and
Gary Husband, I was very proudof that band and we did a few
festivals.
I found that very exciting.
(36:05):
You know they were great.
Geoff (36:07):
What was the last concert you attended
Jim (36:10):
Stevie I guess Stevie yeah, yeah, that
was it.
I'm not a good listener,actually, you know.
I find you know going to clubs,but a lot of the time there's a
lot of distraction going on andpeople talking.
I used to get into troublebecause I used to go around
Ronnie's and say, excuse me, canyou keep it down?
People are listening and you go.
Who do you think you are?
Some guy would stand up and bebigger than me.
(36:30):
It's hard to be careful andyou're a big guy.
Geoff (36:33):
Yeah, they were bigger.
Okay, next question what wouldyou say is your musical weakness
?
Jim (36:40):
I'm a very poor reader.
I'm not a reader, never been agood reader.
I think I may have a slightkind of dyslexic problem.
It just made no sense to me atall.
I tried and tried and tried andI wrote parts out, you know.
Geoff (36:52):
I've seen your parts before.
Jim (36:53):
Yeah, yeah yeah, you can tell.
You can tell it was.
Yeah, it was.
Just when you start off wrong,it's very hard to fix it.
Yeah, sure, yeah, and neverhaving had tuition, really you
know, yeah, but then if I'd hadtuition maybe it would have
stopped me doing what I've beendoing, you know, yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah, it's the swings androundabouts.
I mean, learning things aboutmusic doesn't make you less
(37:14):
creative.
No, it's not but just having todo.
I mean, for instance, if I'dhad to go to guitar lessons, he
would have made me play this way, yeah, and I think I would
become so despondent I wouldhave probably quit, right, you
know, and I wouldn't be doing it.
You know, I'm really glad thatI didn't quit because I like
playing music.
You know, I hope to continuedoing it for a while.
My bank manager insists.
Geoff (37:36):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
Jim (37:37):
Oh, yeah, really, 15 minutes before one stage.
Yeah, always, every time, everytime, every time, because it's
just that thing about wanting tobe ready.
I'm not one of those guys thatpractices furiously before going
on a gig.
Interesting, Just staying intouch with the instrument, but
also before you get started,because there's a lot of things
that can go wrong.
I mean physical things like theamp's not working or there's a
(37:58):
dodgy lead and all that stuff.
Once you get past the firstcouple of minutes, it's all
right, but just that 15 minutesbefore and getting in and
getting everything sorted.
Geoff (38:06):
If you're playing a concert and there's some great
musicians in the audience, doesthat affect your performance in
any way?
Jim (38:12):
No, it doesn't at all.
Sometimes it inspires me, youknow.
I mean the first time, Dick andI got that gig in New York at
Mikell's, which was the sort of606 of New York at that time,
you know, we were filling in forDave Sandborn or something you
know, because these guys wouldtake Mikell's and then they got
a tour.
They'd say you can't do it,we'll get somebody else.
No, we did that for a week andthen he said, yeah, do next week
(38:34):
too.
We ended up doing six weeks andin that time we had Don Grolnick
came and played with us.
The Brecker brothers came downevery night for a week and sat
in.
So suddenly we thought we'vegot to raise your game here.
We must be doing somethingright that we even want to come
and play with us.
So everybody was really nice.
They were really open NewYorkers.
When I came to London it waslike who are you?
(38:54):
I still feel that a little bit.
In New York the old people playwith the young people.
I mean Peter Bernstein playswith George Coleman, who's 88 or
something.
He played with Jimmy Cobb'sband.
He played with a lot of theolder guys and he calls them the
elders.
They have a respect for theseguys.
Over here they don't.
That's why people like me andHenry Lowther and Stan Saltzman
(39:15):
don't work.
We've been scored off all thelists I heard you were dead and
all that stuff.
Geoff (39:21):
I still respect you.
Jim (39:22):
Well, thank you, sir, but I think it's a mistake to write
off.
Yeah, it totally is I think thegenerations have different
things to bring to the table.
Yeah, I totally agree.
You see nice things about me,and Dave O'Higgins does as well.
There must have been somethingI did that was worthwhile.
Geoff (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, a few more questions not music related,
starting with what's yourfavourite sandwich.
Jim (39:47):
I'm not a big sandwich guy, actually.
Toast and marmalade orsomething.
You know that's good, great.
Geoff (39:51):
What's your favourite movie?
Jim (39:53):
Some Like it Hot.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah, I got a lot of music fromthat film actually.
Geoff (40:01):
No, my favourite one is Stairway to the Stars.
Is that in that movie?
Jim (40:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In the scene where Tony Curtisis pretending to be the head of
Shell Oil, yeah, and he luresMarilyn Monroe onto the yacht
whose skipper is being tangoeddanced, and he's doing the Cary
Grant voice as well.
She loves it.
Apparently.
Cary Grant said nobody talkslike that.
Nobody talks like that.
Yeah, anyway, he takes her ontothe boat.
She's very impressed and hedoesn't know his way around, so
(40:32):
he takes her into the roomcovered by mistake.
He goes oh, I forget where weare.
And then he finds the lounge,takes her in and sits her down,
pours the champagne, turns downthe lighting and puts on the
music.
And it was this song.
It was a big hit for TommyDorsey, like 100 years ago, you
know, and I just thought it wasone of those moments when the
music and the scene, everythingwas all really connected, you
(40:52):
know.
And it's a very romantic songactually, you know, although I
always introduce it, it'sbecause I'm getting old, now I
struggle on the stairs.
I introduce it as stairlift.
Yeah, it's a wonderful song,you know.
It's a great movie yeah, it's awonderful song.
Yeah, it's a wonderful.
It's a great movie.
It's a wonderful movie.
Yeah, I mean, it's not a wastedword, it's the funniest script
of all time.
(41:12):
I still look at the cast.
Tony Curtis, Jack Lemon andMarilyn Monroe were never better
.
Yeah, anyway, it's a great film.
I'll never get tired of that one
Geoff (41:20):
Amazing, okay, what about a favorite venue to play in.
Jim (41:24):
The next one!
Geoff (41:25):
The next one! What about a favourite country or city?
You like to go to
Jim (41:32):
Italia.
Of course.
Yeah, we love Italy.
We've got a friend who lives inTuscany and just outside
Florence and he has a.
this guy's a retired civilengineer, a jazz guitar nut as
well, and he's got theseconverted villas on the hills
overlooking Florence, gorgeous,something out of a movie, you
know.
And then we did some workshops.
(41:52):
It was like three or four daysin this converted farmhouse not
very far from Florence, in thehills.
Zoe came as well.
It was at our anniversary, Ithink, wasn't it?
Yeah, so we made a littleholiday of it, we stayed on, we
had a great time, didn't we Cool?
Geoff (42:06):
So the last question.
This is the most important one.
Jim (42:11):
Do you still love your wife ?
Geoff (42:14):
That's not the question.
I already know the answer noyou know the answer?
Yeah, we'll get a divorce.
The last question is what'syour favourite chord?
Come on, you've got your guitaron your lap.
I don't have one.
You don't have one.
He likes passing chords.
There you go.
Jim (42:32):
It's a 13 sharp nine.
Geoff (42:36):
It's got that lovely diagonal shape on the guitar.
Yeah, anything that's easy toplay on the guitar in the shape
is great, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, do you tend to useopen strings inside your chords
very much?
Announcement (42:46):
Anything that's easy to play on the guitar in
the shape is great, isn't it?
Geoff (42:48):
Yeah, yeah, do you tend to use open strings inside your
chords very much?
Jim (42:51):
Sometimes.
Generally try to avoid itbecause you never know what's
going to happen.
You leave a string open and itcan go yeah and scream at it.
So basically I try and covereverything with my fingers if I
can.
Geoff (43:02):
Well, I think that'll wrap it up nicely.
Thanks so much for your time,Jim.
Jim (43:05):
I hope there's something worth listening to.
Geoff (43:06):
Oh my, God, oh my God, I've had a ball.
I could talk to you all day.
Jim (43:09):
Well, you're welcome.
Any time you're in theneighbourhood, give us a shout,
come round for a cup of tea.
I will do that for sure.
Yeah, Good to see you again,Geoff.
Announcement (43:21):
Thank you for making it.
Please subscribe if you want tohear more of them as they land.
Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well.
Today I'm in the West End ofLondon and I'm going to see
someone who I've been lookingforward to speaking to for many,
many months now.
In fact, since I started thispodcast, he was the first guy I
thought of.
Today, it's the great JimMullen, who has been a massive
(00:23):
influence on many people,especially me, and very
supportive throughout the years.
A great guy, wonderful player.
So I'm really looking forwardto speaking to him.
So here we go.
Announcement (00:52):
The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to
you by the Quartet app for iOS,taking your jazz play along to
another level
Geoff (01:01):
Jim.
Jim (01:01):
Hey, nice to see you.
I was just thinking.
You know, when you were still abass guitarist before, I think,
before you were playing thedouble bass, right, yeah, and
you used to dip with Lawrenceand my electric quartet,
remember I did yeah.
And then we did a gig insomewhere in Bavaria, yeah, and
you did the gig with GeorgieFame.
Right.
And then you went over todouble bass.
I think after that was yeahright,
(01:22):
Good .
.
So can we start talking a bitabout how you got into jazz and
what was the first jazz thatyou've heard that kind of
inspired you to play?
So when I first started playing jazz, the only part that
I could really relate to werethe bass parts, because they
played the fewest number ofnotes.
You know, getting a lot of gigsas a bass player in those days.
Actually, you know, my firsthero was Ray Brown.
I was very fortunate that Jazzat the Philharmonic used to come
(01:45):
to Glasgow every year.
So I mean I saw everybody youknow Ellington, Basie several
times, Ella Fitzgerald, SarahVaughan, Oscar Peterson Trio
with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen.
Exciting.
and they were.
You couldn't get past them atone time, you know.
I mean Oscar still had allthese his virtuosity, the double
octave things and flying aroundridiculous tempos but, you
(02:09):
couldn't take your eyes or yourears off of Ray Brown because
his grooves were so killing.
And this was in a cinema and thePA.
there was two speakers thissize, one on the other side of
the stage, one mic on the pianoand one mic for Oscar to talk
into.
That was it.
Nothing on the bass, he didn'teven have a bass amp, Ed Thigpen
(02:29):
.
But I mean just the way theyplayed together, you know, it
was fantastic.
I mean I was absolutelytransfixed and, like all great
concerts I've ever been to, Icouldn't remember any of the
music afterwards because I wasso transported that all I could
think of was what an amazingfeeling that it happened, you
know.
And actually I saw Coltraneplay in Glasgow, Did you?
When I was 16.
he played in Glasgow in 1960and it was the quintet with Eric
(02:53):
Dolphy.
Geoff (02:54):
Funny you should say that because I interviewed Alan
Skidmore and he saw Coltrane onthe same, it must have been the
same trip in Walthamstow's TownHall.
And he said he played one tune.
Is that right, oh?
Jim (03:05):
He played two tunes in Glasgow.
He played Favourite Things andNaima, oh right, and Dolphy was
there and Dolphy was doing allthese bird impressions, you know
tweet, I don't mean CharlieParker, I mean birds, you know,
tweeting around and a lot of themusicians got walked out doing
this, you know, doing this, youknow.
But I remember the intensity ofit, you know it was in this.
(03:27):
Glasgow had a great opera houseat that time called the St
Andrew's Halls.
A week after Coltrane playedthere it burnt down and it was
in the round.
So all the drummers were behindElvin, you know, and there was
50 drummers behind him.
It was amazing, I mean, it waslike a trance, you know, it was
like a mantra, you know.
Yeah, you know the way thatthey played things like
Favourite Things, you know.
And Coltrane's sound always gotme.
You know how beautifullylyrical it was, you know.
(03:49):
And just about that time, maybea year or two later, an
American naval base came to theHoly Loch in Scotland.
Suddenly, you'd see all theseblack sailors in sailor suits on
weekend passes in Glasgow, youknow.
And there was a little jazzclub called The Cell, you know,
it looked like a cell actually,you know.
Suddenly these guys came intothe clubs and started sitting in
(04:11):
borrowing saxophone.
That was kind of exciting, youknow.
But the Jazz at the Philharmonicwas, I suppose, my first
introduction to the real thing.
I think when you hear somethingthat's incredibly moving, it
stays with you.
I can't remember any of thedetails of the music at all, but
I can remember the feeling, youknow, and going away and
thinking about it and thentrying to play some of that, the
(04:31):
sort of tempos that they played, that and stuff.
You know, none of it was polite.
Everything was like really lifeor death.
You know, I also liked howdemocratic jazz was.
You know, everybody has a partto play.
It's a team effort.
I've always liked that.
I've always tried to have thatin any bands that I've had.
Geoff (04:50):
Well, I'm just going to say you gave me such support
when I started in London.
You were so supportive and youwere so encouraging.
Jim (04:58):
Well, that's what you do.
That's what people do with me.
Geoff (05:00):
Well, everybody's like that yeah that's right, but you
passed it on.
You passed it on.
Yeah, that's right it's just avery supportive atmosphere that
you create.
I think that's what it is.
Jim (05:09):
Well fortunately.
I had a lot of that, althoughwhen I was playing the double
bass in Glasgow, to begin with,I was getting hell from all the
other players because I was like15 and they were all like in
their 40s and I and I didn'tknow that you're supposed to
stand in the one place betweenthe drums and the piano I'd be
wandering across the stage withthe bass, you know, talking to
people.
They'd say, hey, you get backthere, you know.
(05:30):
And then I'd be speeding up andslowing down.
I just wasn't aware of that.
So I'd go home thinking whatthe hell have I done?
You know, until you're madeaware of these things, you don't
do anything about it.
So fewer, yeah.
And I sort of realized maybeI've got the time thing a little
better now and I've alwaysregarded myself as being an
ensemble player.
You know I have to make what Ido fit.
Plus, there were some reallygood players in Glasgow at that
(05:51):
time.
There was a great piano playercalled Kenny Crawford who went
to Australia.
actually.
If this guy played like WyntonKelly, really swinging, great
voicings, I used to ask him toshow me voicings on the piano
and I I'd try and do them on theguitar.
The problem with the guitarwhen you've got close voicings
on the piano.
You're like this on the guitar,you know.
So I had to kind of compromiseand find what were the great
notes in those chords.
(06:12):
You know, because a three-notechord can be a fantastic chord,
you know, it doesn't have tohave all the information and
learning how to accompany andjust figuring, figuring how to
be a team player, you know.
Yeah, that was it.
And I've never looked back.
Geoff (06:24):
You must have started listening to guitar players
around this time as well right.
Jim (06:27):
Well, yeah, although you could only get the West Coast
guitar players in those days.
You couldn't get, for instance,East Coast, you couldn't get
Blue Note or Riverside.
You could get ContemporaryPacific jazz.
So you were getting all theguys that had gone to LA to be
in the studio bands, people likeBarney Kessel, Tal Farlow,
Mundell Lowe, all those guys.
Geoff (06:47):
Was that because of a distribution of records or
something?
Jim (06:49):
There was something like that and that's another thing
with these American sailorsbeing stationed in Scotland, the
local pawn shops would haveBlue Note records on.
These guys had got rid of somerecords to get some cash, you
know, on the weekend pass.
So I suddenly saw thesefantastic covers.
You know weekend pass, so Isuddenly saw these fantastic
covers.
You know there's amazing.
You know, Ready for Freddy, youknow, and Wayne Shorter
records, Herbie Hancock, youknow.
(07:10):
So I was getting these thingsfor like 10 shillings or
something.
You know they were playable.
You know, I'll never forget Ibought Empyrean Isles, you know,
the quartet one, One FingerSnap and all those tunes on
there.
I got it when it came out, theyear it came out 64 I think it
was, and taking it home and justlike being pinned to the wall
with the kind of intensity.
Geoff (07:32):
So what about learning to improvise?
Did you transcribe things?
Jim (07:36):
Never transcribed in my whole life.
Right, because I felt that thatwas cheating in a way.
You know, because what Irealised early on about
improvising is you want to takethe flavour of what you're
getting from whoever's Miles orColtrane or Cannonball or
whatever, but I don't want totake their licks because then
I'm going to be trapped.
So how do you get the flavour?
Trial and error.
Being a bass player to beginwith, although I was playing
(07:58):
guitar at home, on my bass I wasreally figuring out the kind of
geography of songs you know.
There were no teachers, so theonly teaching I could get, I
mean, I'd bug the piano playerto show me some of his voicings,
which he did and I'd go backand get my wee guitar and try
and figure out what they were.
Geoff (08:13):
So what's your knowledge of chord and harmony at this
stage then
I could hear it.
I couldn't identify it in termsof you know this.
I mean, in a sense WesMontgomery was the same.
Wes couldn't read a chord soloor something, but he could hear
it.
I've analysed those WesMontgomery chord solos.
I mean they're so hip.
I mean guitarists to this daydon't play chord solos like Wes.
(08:34):
He really knew everything aboutharmony.
But I think it's just it'sidentifying these things.
I'm still trying to identifysounds I hear.
I don't always recognise firsttime, just trying to stay on top
of what.
I'm still trying to identifysounds I hear.
I don't always recognise firsttime, you know, just trying to
stay on top of what I'm hearing,you know.
And trial and error.
Do you still get surprised by things that you
hear?
Jim (08:52):
Oh yeah, all the time, usually by how badly I'm playing
.
You know no.
Geoff (08:56):
I don't mean yourself, I mean from listening when you
hear other people, do you hear?
Oh, that's a harmony I don'trecognise, or something like
that.
Jim (09:02):
Oh yeah, especially all the chords on chords thing.
You know, the minute the bassplayer takes another note,
you're looking at a wholedifferent thing, you know.
Geoff (09:09):
A chord is only a chord when the bass player decides
which note he's playing.
Really yeah, which chord thatis.
Jim (09:14):
That's right yeah, but beyond all that, you know, I
wasn't really thinking aboutsort of technical things.
I mean, I did a lot of writingin my earlier days.
You know, I I think I've got120 tunes published.
Trying to put your thoughts inorder.
You know, that's where writingcomes in.
It forces you to make decisions.
Wayne Shorter has a great quote.
He says when you improvise, youcompose quickly, when you
(09:35):
compose, you improvise slowly.
Geoff (09:37):
That's a great quote, Wonderful really profound
actually.
Jim (09:39):
He came out with some great quotes like that.
You know, when you're writing,you're weighing up the weight of
every single note.
That's right.
Is that right?
Should that be shorter?
Should that be longer?
Should that, should that tieover?
And when you're improvising,you're flying through, you're
not thinking anything.
Yeah, and that's.
I learned something that waytoo.
But when you're improvising,you know you're going with the
flow.
You're thinking about somethingelse.
Rather than trying to make awonderful invented melody,
(10:01):
you're just trying to keep atrain of thought going.
You know, I'm still trying tokeep that going, actually, you
know sometimes it works as youget older, I mean I'm 80 this
year, in a few months.
Your perspectives change, youknow, whereas you know 20, 30
years ago I really wanted toplay up my tunes and I was very
influenced by John Scofield inthose days.
(10:21):
Yeah, so I've got a lot of veryScofield-y type things, you
know, and just going for thatkind of excitement too.
But then I realised at somepoint that's not me, you know,
that's him.
Now I can kind of takeSchofield or leave him,
especially the sound, that kindof slightly metallic, quite hard
.
That bothers me a little bit now.
(10:42):
It didn't before.
You know, know.
I mean now I'm really intoreally good tunes and there's so
many of them.
You know a good tune does halfthe work for you.
You know you play it properly.
The atmosphere's right there.
You know you never get oldenough to know all the great
tunes you know.
But I mean most of my gigs noware playing standards, maybe
slightly rearranged orreharmonised, something, you
know, some extra harmony in it,but just because they're so
(11:03):
great.
And for me now it's aboutplaying great tunes and nice
grooves.
Autumn in New York is a swingand all that kind of thing.
Geoff (11:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah, because you've always done that, haven't
you?
Jim (11:11):
I have.
I like the idea of playing aballad with a double feel
because it gives you a longsequence.
Yeah, so you've got a lot ofspace.
You used to play some EarthWind and Fire, didn't you?
That's right.
Geoff (11:30):
After the Lover Has Gone, After the Love Has Gone, so
you've always taken sort of very, sort of diverse tunes.
And well, that was part of jazz, wasn't it?
You know, I mean to takefamiliar material and do
something differently.
Yeah, absolutely So, obviously, it's well known that you play
with your thumb.
You play the guitar with yourthumb, would you say.
First mistake Because you'releft-handed, aren't you?
Jim (11:46):
I am playing right-handed.
That was my second mistake.
When you play with your thumb,you can only play downstroke.
You can play with the flesh ofthe thumb.
You can't do it upstrokesbecause that's the nail and that
would be a horrible clicky.
The nice thing about playingwith your fingers is you get a
warmth.
I mean, I like the idea of, uh,sounding almost vocal.
The reason I play with my thumbis because when I started
(12:08):
playing right handed, although Iwas left-handed, I remember my
handwriting fell apart.
I was getting hell from theteachers, Really?
Mullen.
What's this?
What do you call this?
Sorry, you know, because theleft side of the brain deals
with the right side of the bodyand vice versa.
So whatever I was doing, it wasspaghetti in there.
You know, all the signals werebeing crossed.
My mum was left-handed also, butshe told me when she was at
(12:31):
school you weren't allowed to beleft-handed.
They used to tie her left handbehind her back you talk about
child abuse and she was forcedto write with her right hand.
Her handwriting never recovered.
That's awful To the day shedied.
She died when she was 96, itwas still a scrawl.
She'd send me birthday cardsand stuff.
You know, really struggling tomake out what she was writing.
You know, I didn't really thinkabout it.
I was just too stupid torealise if you're left-handed
(12:53):
you'd be playing this way.
You know what it meant was.
I would be holding a pick,trying to play something really
hands, you know, just because Ihad no proper technique to hold
it or anything and I just gottired of looking for it on the
floor and I had no techniqueanyway.
So I carried on with my thumb,which I had no technique, but at
least I had a sort of intimate,more intimate control of where
(13:13):
my finger went.
Geoff (13:15):
But of course the downstrokes means that there's
lots of hammering and pulling inthe left hand.
Hammer-ons and pull-offs In theleft hand, yeah all the time um
.
Jim (13:22):
You can't quantify it you know no but for me it's about
trying to keep up the kind ofrhythmic momentum of the thing,
but just try and keep it flowing.
Basically, you know, yeah, butI'm stuck with it.
I mean it's too late, way toolate now for me to do anything
about it.
I tried a couple of times yearsago, but it was still hopeless
and I couldn't do anything.
This way, I tried that too,absolutely hopeless.
(13:43):
And then you think about itthis hand is doing all the work,
yeah, making all the notes, youknow, making all the chords,
because of the guitar.
Nothing is laid out for youlike, yeah, you have to make
that thing happen, yeah, and youtry and do that here.
This hand is absolutely useless, you know.
So I realized I had to be thisway.
I tried to pick again, you know, slowly, no, not happening.
So there's a lot of Brazilianmusicians in London and I went
(14:05):
to this one guy lives, lives upin West Hampstead.
His name is Gui Tavares, GuitarVirus, I call him.
The inversions that theBrazilians use is completely
different to what the NorthAmericans are using.
You know, they use a lot ofthings with displaced bass notes
.
You know, when I'm doing mydodgy Scottish Samba, he said
stop.
I said what he said you'reletting.
(14:26):
I said isn't that what you'resupposed to do?
He said, no, you're supposed todampen them all.
And also, you're using yourfingers, you're using your nails
.
I mean, I realised right away.
I mean there may be a culturaldivide that's too wide for me to
cross.
He says first of all, there'shundreds of rhythms and they've
all got names and you cansuperimpose any one of them at
(14:47):
any point when you hear it theright thing to do you any point
when you hear it the right thingto do.
Geoff (14:51):
You've chosen to play When Sunny Gets Blue, right,
yeah, so just think about thefirst few chords of that and
ideas that you might use.
That second chord may not bepresent in this version.
Jim (15:10):
What is the second chord there?
Geoff (15:12):
The second chord would be just a C7 probably wouldn't it,
I'll do whatever it is Right.
So we're going to have onechorus, chorus of Sunny Gets
Blue, within last eight years ofproduction no mistakes.
(15:49):
Thank you, thank you so.
Thank you, terrific, wow,trying to make sense of your,
(18:09):
your left hand and youring andyour.
I gave up on that a long timeago.
How did it feel like to playwith that?
Jim (18:15):
Yeah, I mean I've done lot of t hings with recording over
backing tracks and stuff in thepast and while it makes you play
carefully which is notsomething you normally think
about when you're playing you'rejust going for it, but you have
to be careful because you haveto make it fit with something
that's already there.
Geoff (18:30):
So when you're playing, you're not thinking of licks,
are you no?
What's going through your mindas you're playing.
Jim (18:37):
Well, I always felt that you know, improvising a solo is
you're really trying to inventan alternative melody, yeah, and
to do that there has to be athread of continuity for a start
.
That's why, just sometimesgetting a good opening phrase,
yeah, well, you did that.
Just then I noticed that itgives you a kickstart to
actually continue the line.
(18:57):
It may not be great, sometimesyou get lucky and it all flows
beautifully and you think, oh, Ididn't mean that, but I like it
.
It's not an exact science, butif you can get a nice kickoff,
it doesn't mean like jumping infuriously but to find something
nice that creates a nice littlestart to it.
You can continue that in orderto try and keep the continuity.
(19:17):
I mean, I've thought aboutmelody a lot in my life.
Melodies are essentially verysimple things, hardly any really
complicated melodies.
They're simple but they'reprofound.
You know, that was one of thereasons why I recorded Nessun
Dorma once with my organ trio,because I just thought that
melody with all these minor 9,you know it's a miracle, oh
(19:46):
yeah.
(20:06):
I mean, I always loved that.
I remember when Nessun Normawas at the top of the pop charts
in 1990.
Right Football Italia.
England got to the final.
I think Gary Lineker won theGolden Boot.
Pavarotti number one in thecharts, you know.
Everywhere you were going.
You were hearing, and that'swhat I love about Italian opera
it's so soulful, but it's melody, isn't it?
Geoff (20:27):
It's melody, Big fat melodies, and really soulful.
Jim (20:31):
you know it's packed with these big juicy melodies, you
know.
Geoff (20:35):
Can we just talk briefly about funk and the sort of
evolution of the British sort offunk scene which you were kind
of part of.
I remember coming to see youwith Morrissey Mullen at the
Half Moon in Putney.
Jim (20:45):
We used to do it every Tuesday for years.
We made more money on that gigI think I made it in any gig
Right.
I we made more money on thatgig than I think I made on any
gig Right.
I still struggle to make thatkind of money now.
Yeah, when Dick and I gottogether, when the Average White
Band were hitting it big, Imainly knew Alan Gorey and Onni
McIntyre.
Alan was the main bass playerand vocalist and Onnie McIntyre
was the guitarist, and I knewMalcolm Duncan and Roger Ball,
(21:08):
the two sax players, and theworld was imploding around them.
They were making a fortune.
It was a world hit, one ofthose songs that just went
everywhere, you know, and theyall got a piece of it as well.
So they all bought houses offof that one song.
The Average White Band came outall wearing kind of white stuff
and playing all their greatstuff and going down a storm.
(21:30):
And we were playing in thesouth to black audiences and
they were going down a storm.
That almost never happens inthe States, you know.
Anyway, they were crossing overbig time and their record was
slowly, you know, by the timethey got from east coast to west
coast, it was a hit number onealbum and single.
You know, Pick up the Pieces,and I just realised this was the
(21:51):
big time you know.
So, Pick up the Pieces.
Geoff (21:52):
And, uh, I just realized this was the big time you know
so Morrissey Mullen was this isyour way of getting into that
scene
because, uh, Malcolm Duncanphoned me and said here's Dick
Morrissey's number.
You know, I think you guysshould play together or
something.
You know, give him a call.
And Dick was living about amile away from me.
I was in South Wimbledon, hewas in Tooting, Tooting Beck, I
think and we met in this pubover a pint of Guinness and Dick
(22:15):
said to me he had just leftthis band, if it's one of these
rock bands with a horn section,you know.
He said to me, man, I'll tellyou what I'd like to do.
You know those CTI albums with,like Stanley Turrentine and
George Benson?
And I said, yeah, yeah, it'slovely.
And The Crusaders, yeah, thatkind of music you can still play
(22:36):
kind of bebop over it, butyou've got a backbeat, so it
takes it away from thesplangolang thing.
Anyway, he came round to where Iwas staying in this little flat
that's now been demolished, andI had no money and I didn't
sign on, which was really stupid, because they tried to get me
for tax a couple of years later.
I actually survived by sellingmy priceless record collection
(22:57):
and just buying, you know,surviving on cheese sandwiches
and a couple of pints of beer upat the.
But what I did in that period Ididn't play any gigs for almost
two years.
There was a pub in Wimbledon upon the South Common called the
Hand in Hand and there was alittle Irish Wimbledon up on the
South Common called the Hand inHand and there was a little
Irish band played in there everyWednesday or Thursday playing
(23:18):
jigs and reels.
So I got my acoustic guitar,which I still had, and went up
and learned all those tunes andplayed with them.
(23:44):
It was great because it kept mystuff, you know.
So did you know that stuff from being in Scotland?
Jim (23:49):
No, I kind of related to it .
I used to play folk music as akid Right and things like you
know that stuff from being inScotland.
No, I kind of related to it.
I used to play folk music as akid Right and things like you
know.
That's amazing.
(24:15):
Whoa, you know those tunes.
You know that's jazz, isn't it?
Well, it's jazz, and stricttime music as well.
You know, you can't fluff it uprhythmically, You've got to be
right on it.
I mean, nothing was writtendown in those days.
They only survived because theywere great and people liked
them.
You know, in a way that's agood test for all music really.
It only survives if people likeit and it's good, it's strong.
That's why standards I oftenthink about.
(24:37):
Nobody knows that most of themare show tunes.
Nobody remembers the shows.
You only have to look in theReal Book to see where the show
was.
Who remembers the show that IGot Rhythm came from All of
those things.
Playing these kind of gigs gotyou back into playing and
started yeah, kept me picked youout of that because I wouldn't
have been playing otherwise.
You know, they've been justlanguishing you know right.
Geoff (24:58):
And then what about Morrissey Mullen?
How did that?
Uh, what were your first stepsinto, into breaking out with
mosswick Morrissey Mullen?
Jim (25:04):
I got together.
I had a few tunes.
First of all, Malcolm Duncaninvited us out to the States to
record an album in New York withthem, because they were riding
so high.
Atlantic Records was looking todo anything they wanted because
they had a big hit on theirhands, you know, and they were
very, very focused.
They worked really hard in thestudio.
They really put the jigsawpuzzle together very carefully.
(25:25):
It all worked great.
Plus, they had Arif Mardinproducing them, one of the great
producers you know.
Geoff (25:32):
So you went out to America and you did the first
Morrissey Mullen album with theAverage White Band.
That's right.
What was originally supposed tohappen was it was meant to be
Steve Gadd, Richard Tee andwho's the six-string bass player
, Anthony Jackson.
Aye, it was meant to be them.
Dick and I were like playingwith our heroes, you know,
bricking it, you know.
So we had a rehearsal at MollyDuncan's basement before we went
(25:55):
into the studio I'd scribbledout some chord parts and they
made it so easy for us becausethey had a band sound.
You know they still had SteveFerrone at that time, you know.
Tried the tunes out with them.
It sounded great.
We thought I wish we were doingit with you.
And he says, yeah, so.
And he said, yeah, so do we.
So we actually cancelled SteveGad, Richard Tee and Anthony
Jackson and did it with theAverage White Band because we
(26:16):
were really worried, just inorder to feel comfortable, you
know, not to be shitting it.
You know we chickened out,probably the only chance that I
got to play with these guys, butso we did it with them.
We did a recording on a fourtrack or something at Molly's
studio and I took it away withme and I kind of timed
everything and then edited itdown to manageable, you know,
(26:36):
because when you've got blowinginstrumental things.
It can be anything between fiveand ten minutes.
So I got it down to about five,six minutes kind of thing, you
know and did a lot of prep andthen went into the studio
Atlantic Studios Gene Paul theengineer, Les Paul's son, Arif
Mardin was there, Ahmet Ertegun,all the head honchos and we did
(26:57):
it and they were like, hey, man, we've got to do business with
you guys.
So doing the talk and the talk,you know.
Unfortunately, reality kickedin and although it came out and
it got great reviews in Cashboxand Billboard, they put it on a
subsidiary label called Embryoand the Embryo label was thrown
down the toilet within about sixmonths.
So our career also went downthe toilet at that point
(27:20):
But that was the start ofMorrissey Mullen right, that was
, that was how you.
you had something to build.
Jim (27:24):
Well, Dick said to me look, I'm going back to London
because he had already had threeor four kids.
You know, were you thinkingabout moving there?
I was thinking of, yeah, right,but what decided it for me?
Against it for me was my wife,not Zoe, but my first wife,
Lorna, who was in the rag trade.
She was getting offered all thework.
So that's when I decided I cameback and Dick said let's do
(27:48):
some gigs.
So we got various rhythmsections.
Some of them weren't hopelessBecause at that time there
weren't a lot of drummers whodid all the styles.
You hardly had a jazz drummerwho could funk it up.
So we tried that and found outit wasn't going to be
straightforward.
But then we did get good guysand ended up with really good
guys like Neil Wilkinson, PeteJacobson, people like that.
(28:09):
The only gig we could get tobegin with was at the Bull's
Head in Barnes, because Dick wasalready well-known there.
He'd played there since he wasa boy, you know, and all the
gazers with the pints and thesort of folded arms and all
sorts of stuff.
They weren't happy about thisat all, you know, because they
knew Dick was the Boy Wonder hewas called actually, you know,
it's a great beb beep-ops, youknow, fiery beep-ops there.
(28:30):
So we were getting a lot offlack, you know.
But then over the next I thinkwe were doing one a month or two
a month there over the next fewmonths it all started changing.
Suddenly the ones who had theirarms folded unfolded their arms
, you know, and started sort ofgetting something out of it.
And then a lot of younger peoplecame along and that was the key
, because suddenly we're gettingreal mixed crowds.
(28:52):
Because you know, the jazzthing was always for old guys,
yeah, leather patches on theblazers and stuff, you know.
Now it was everybody, young,young white kids, old, black
people, you know real mix, youknow.
Yeah, we had that.
It got going.
So we're doing six, sevennights a week up and down the
country, you know, not making afortune but making quite nice
money.
You know that on for 15 years.
Then Dick's health starteddeteriorating.
(29:14):
He never looked after himselfand that was a sad end,
unfortunately.
Geoff (29:18):
Very sad, but that was the beginning of the Brit funk.
in some ways, wasn't it?
That was what you were doingthere, but you've always been
into that music and you've kindof carried it on, haven't you?
As the years went on
Jim (29:30):
Not so much now, actually, Haven't you?
As the years went on?
Not so much now actually.
I mean, I love that music, butI did find after a while that
it's formulaic.
I quite like the idea of musicnot being formulaic.
Geoff (29:41):
Which brings you back to standards, of course, doesn't it
?
The organ trio, yeah.
Jim (29:44):
Depending on who you're playing with.
The sky's the limit.
And I get to play with goodguys and the sky is the limit.
So it's exciting for me,whereas the funk thing it's a
formula, you know, and Iremember reading something that
John Schofield said.
He says I just heard onebackbeat too many, although he's
still doing a lot of thatbecause he has to.
Geoff (30:09):
I've got some questions to finish off, but just before
that I just want to ask youabout song quotes in solos.
Jim (30:15):
That was Dick got me into that.
I mean not deliberately, heused to do it.
I mean, Dick was amazing.
You know we'd be playing, I hadno concept of quoting.
You know We'd be playing awayand Dick would suddenly quote
some really profound classical.
You know, things likeRachmaninoff, that kind of thing
he'd quote, and a rhythmchanges or something he would
(30:38):
also do, that thing that Birddid, which was which he quoted
in What is This Thing CalledLove?
But the only thing is you haveto change the last note.
Why do you do that?
He said because it lightens themood.
(30:59):
He said he says because jazzcan be a tough math test for a
lot of people.
All these notes flying around.
Sometimes you throw in a quote,especially one that they'll all
recognise, and it cracks theenamel.
People start smiling.
They often don't know what itis, but they recognise it.
So it made me aware of that.
Now, unfortunately, it's avirus.
It's very hard to get rid ofonce you get it.
(31:21):
So I find myself doing it morethan I should be actually these
days Right.
Should be actually these daysRight right.
Geoff (31:26):
Sometimes they just pop out without you even thinking
about it, right?
Jim (31:29):
Well, I mean, sometimes your natural phrasing can just
be like something else.
Yeah, yeah, so that can happen.
It is a virus.
That's great when there arepeople, people like all the
musicians that are going now,like Bill Le Sage.
He could do a whole solo thatwas just a string of quotes from
beginning to end.
Geoff (31:47):
Okay, I've got some questions I ask everybody.
Some of them will be easy toanswer, some of them may not.
So the first question is what'syour favourite album?
Jim (31:56):
I don't think I can have the luxury of a favourite album.
Actually, there's a lot ofthings that I keep going back to
Here's to Life.
You know the Shirley Horn thing.
I think that's a masterpiece,but also Coltrane Ballads.
There's a Kenny Burrell, JohnColtrane album.
I don't know whether you knowthat one, whether you do Freight
Train.
Kenny Burrell matches Coltranein that album and he really
Kenny Burrell was great.
I found out later that Rudy VanGelder got every guitarist that
(32:20):
he recorded to use this ampthat he had in the studio.
So Kenny Burrell, Grant Greenand all the other guys, they've
all used that amp and the soundthat Kenny Burrell gets out of
this amp amazing, and I wastalking to Peter Bernstein about
that.
He loves that record as welland he really checked that sound
out because his sound is quitesimilar to that.
Actually A wonderful rich, fatsound.
Geoff (32:41):
But that doesn't come from the amp.
Surely that's in your fingers.
Jim (32:44):
It's a combination.
The amp helps If you've got anamp that's sensitive to what
you're trying to do.
Geoff (32:50):
There's another something that pops into my mind is you
remember you did an album withme Pop Bop, yes which was my
quartet album of playing poptunes as swingy tunes, right,
you turned up to the studio withjust the guitar, right, and you
plugged straight into thesoundboard and that was you.
I'll never forget that
Jim (33:08):
When I was with Brian Auger in the early 70s, he had a deal
with an Italian amplificationcompany called Davely and they
got all this gear.
And he got all this gear for me, you know, effects and pedals
and stuff.
And there was, there was thisthing.
It was on four legs, it waslike something out of
Thunderbirds Are Go, I tell you,and it was a four octave
divctave divider.
Can you imagine what fouroctaves sound like together?
(33:31):
You know the one you're playing, one above, one below and one
below that, right down thebottom end of the piano you play
a Charlie Parker tune, the fouroctaves, it's like the Doomsday
Machine.
And then the other half of itwas all repeat echo, where you
could play da-ba, play withyourself all night.
And there was also instrumentaltone things you could choose.
You get bassoon, bass clarinet.
(33:54):
So for about a year I was asound effects salesman.
I call them talent boosters.
Well, anyway, it broke down onenight and I was just left with
the guitar and the amp and itsounded like and that's when I
realized no man, you gotta get agood sound before any, it's
through any pedal.
In fact, I stopped all thepedals after that.
Yeah, you know, no more pedals.
(34:15):
If you get a good sound, youcan use it for everything you
know.
Yeah, I mean, George Bensondoesn't change his sound, for
you know, Eric Gale didn't healways had that great sound and
he was playing a big guitar likean L5 or something I
Geoff (34:26):
I mean I can hear it in here.
You've got an arched top on yourlap here and it's the sound
that's coming off of it.
Jim (34:32):
Absolutely.
You can't duplicate that.
Geoff (34:34):
It's in your fingers, isn't it?
Jim (34:36):
Yeah, and on a solid you can't quite get that.
Geoff (34:39):
So question number two, is there a favourite musician,
alive or dead, that you wouldlike to play with or would like
to playwith or would have like to have
played with
Jim (34:49):
How many have you got I?
Mean, yeah, loads, just briefly, One or two I'd like to play
with.
I mean I'd love to have playedwith Wynton Kelly, some of the
New York guys I'm a big fan ofLarry Golding's on piano and
organ.
I'd love to have done a sessionwith Coltrane or something,
just to hear or something justto hear just the way he played
the melody Donny Hathaway.
I'd love to have played withDonny Hathaway.
(35:10):
He's my.
In fact, I can hardly bear toplay his records because they're
so moving, you know, and it'soverwhelming it is incredible
song.
And then we heard Stevie in thePark in the summer.
He was incredible.
He's in his 70s now.
You know, one overjoyedDa-da-dee, da-da-dee, da-da-dee,
da-da-da.
He did that and he didn'tchange the key.
(35:30):
And it changes, it goes up atone at the end.
And the park was packed withStevie Wonder fans.
I'm glad.
Geoff (35:37):
That's just across the road from here where we are now,
That's our garden.
Next question is there ahighlight of your career?
Jim (35:45):
A few highlights.
I guess, yeah, Just doingfestivals with my own group.
I mean, I've had various groupsover the years and I've still
got my organ trio with MikeGorman and Tristan Mayo, but
when I had my quartet withGareth Williams, Mick Hutton and
Gary Husband, I was very proudof that band and we did a few
festivals.
I found that very exciting.
(36:05):
You know they were great.
Geoff (36:07):
What was the last concert you attended
Jim (36:10):
Stevie I guess Stevie yeah, yeah, that
was it.
I'm not a good listener,actually, you know.
I find you know going to clubs,but a lot of the time there's a
lot of distraction going on andpeople talking.
I used to get into troublebecause I used to go around
Ronnie's and say, excuse me, canyou keep it down?
People are listening and you go.
Who do you think you are?
Some guy would stand up and bebigger than me.
(36:30):
It's hard to be careful andyou're a big guy.
Geoff (36:33):
Yeah, they were bigger.
Okay, next question what wouldyou say is your musical weakness
?
Jim (36:40):
I'm a very poor reader.
I'm not a reader, never been agood reader.
I think I may have a slightkind of dyslexic problem.
It just made no sense to me atall.
I tried and tried and tried andI wrote parts out, you know.
Geoff (36:52):
I've seen your parts before.
Jim (36:53):
Yeah, yeah yeah, you can tell.
You can tell it was.
Yeah, it was.
Just when you start off wrong,it's very hard to fix it.
Yeah, sure, yeah, and neverhaving had tuition, really you
know, yeah, but then if I'd hadtuition maybe it would have
stopped me doing what I've beendoing, you know, yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah, it's the swings androundabouts.
I mean, learning things aboutmusic doesn't make you less
(37:14):
creative.
No, it's not but just having todo.
I mean, for instance, if I'dhad to go to guitar lessons, he
would have made me play this way, yeah, and I think I would
become so despondent I wouldhave probably quit, right, you
know, and I wouldn't be doing it.
You know, I'm really glad thatI didn't quit because I like
playing music.
You know, I hope to continuedoing it for a while.
My bank manager insists.
Geoff (37:36):
Do you ever get nervous on stage?
Jim (37:37):
Oh, yeah, really, 15 minutes before one stage.
Yeah, always, every time, everytime, every time, because it's
just that thing about wanting tobe ready.
I'm not one of those guys thatpractices furiously before going
on a gig.
Interesting, Just staying intouch with the instrument, but
also before you get started,because there's a lot of things
that can go wrong.
I mean physical things like theamp's not working or there's a
(37:58):
dodgy lead and all that stuff.
Once you get past the firstcouple of minutes, it's all
right, but just that 15 minutesbefore and getting in and
getting everything sorted.
Geoff (38:06):
If you're playing a concert and there's some great
musicians in the audience, doesthat affect your performance in
any way?
Jim (38:12):
No, it doesn't at all.
Sometimes it inspires me, youknow.
I mean the first time, Dick andI got that gig in New York at
Mikell's, which was the sort of606 of New York at that time,
you know, we were filling in forDave Sandborn or something you
know, because these guys wouldtake Mikell's and then they got
a tour.
They'd say you can't do it,we'll get somebody else.
No, we did that for a week andthen he said, yeah, do next week
(38:34):
too.
We ended up doing six weeks andin that time we had Don Grolnick
came and played with us.
The Brecker brothers came downevery night for a week and sat
in.
So suddenly we thought we'vegot to raise your game here.
We must be doing somethingright that we even want to come
and play with us.
So everybody was really nice.
They were really open NewYorkers.
When I came to London it waslike who are you?
(38:54):
I still feel that a little bit.
In New York the old people playwith the young people.
I mean Peter Bernstein playswith George Coleman, who's 88 or
something.
He played with Jimmy Cobb'sband.
He played with a lot of theolder guys and he calls them the
elders.
They have a respect for theseguys.
Over here they don't.
That's why people like me andHenry Lowther and Stan Saltzman
(39:15):
don't work.
We've been scored off all thelists I heard you were dead and
all that stuff.
Geoff (39:21):
I still respect you.
Jim (39:22):
Well, thank you, sir, but I think it's a mistake to write
off.
Yeah, it totally is I think thegenerations have different
things to bring to the table.
Yeah, I totally agree.
You see nice things about me,and Dave O'Higgins does as well.
There must have been somethingI did that was worthwhile.
Geoff (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, a few more questions not music related,
starting with what's yourfavourite sandwich.
Jim (39:47):
I'm not a big sandwich guy, actually.
Toast and marmalade orsomething.
You know that's good, great.
Geoff (39:51):
What's your favourite movie?
Jim (39:53):
Some Like it Hot.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah, I got a lot of music fromthat film actually.
Geoff (40:01):
No, my favourite one is Stairway to the Stars.
Is that in that movie?
Jim (40:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In the scene where Tony Curtisis pretending to be the head of
Shell Oil, yeah, and he luresMarilyn Monroe onto the yacht
whose skipper is being tangoeddanced, and he's doing the Cary
Grant voice as well.
She loves it.
Apparently.
Cary Grant said nobody talkslike that.
Nobody talks like that.
Yeah, anyway, he takes her ontothe boat.
She's very impressed and hedoesn't know his way around, so
(40:32):
he takes her into the roomcovered by mistake.
He goes oh, I forget where weare.
And then he finds the lounge,takes her in and sits her down,
pours the champagne, turns downthe lighting and puts on the
music.
And it was this song.
It was a big hit for TommyDorsey, like 100 years ago, you
know, and I just thought it wasone of those moments when the
music and the scene, everythingwas all really connected, you
(40:52):
know.
And it's a very romantic songactually, you know, although I
always introduce it, it'sbecause I'm getting old, now I
struggle on the stairs.
I introduce it as stairlift.
Yeah, it's a wonderful song,you know.
It's a great movie yeah, it's awonderful song.
Yeah, it's a wonderful.
It's a great movie.
It's a wonderful movie.
Yeah, I mean, it's not a wastedword, it's the funniest script
of all time.
(41:12):
I still look at the cast.
Tony Curtis, Jack Lemon andMarilyn Monroe were never better
.
Yeah, anyway, it's a great film.
I'll never get tired of that one
Geoff (41:20):
Amazing, okay, what about a favorite venue to play in.
Jim (41:24):
The next one!
Geoff (41:25):
The next one! What about a favourite country or city?
You like to go to
Jim (41:32):
Italia.
Of course.
Yeah, we love Italy.
We've got a friend who lives inTuscany and just outside
Florence and he has a.
this guy's a retired civilengineer, a jazz guitar nut as
well, and he's got theseconverted villas on the hills
overlooking Florence, gorgeous,something out of a movie, you
know.
And then we did some workshops.
(41:52):
It was like three or four daysin this converted farmhouse not
very far from Florence, in thehills.
Zoe came as well.
It was at our anniversary, Ithink, wasn't it?
Yeah, so we made a littleholiday of it, we stayed on, we
had a great time, didn't we Cool?
Geoff (42:06):
So the last question.
This is the most important one.
Jim (42:11):
Do you still love your wife ?
Geoff (42:14):
That's not the question.
I already know the answer noyou know the answer?
Yeah, we'll get a divorce.
The last question is what'syour favourite chord?
Come on, you've got your guitaron your lap.
I don't have one.
You don't have one.
He likes passing chords.
There you go.
Jim (42:32):
It's a 13 sharp nine.
Geoff (42:36):
It's got that lovely diagonal shape on the guitar.
Yeah, anything that's easy toplay on the guitar in the shape
is great, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, do you tend to useopen strings inside your chords
very much?
Announcement (42:46):
Anything that's easy to play on the guitar in
the shape is great, isn't it?
Geoff (42:48):
Yeah, yeah, do you tend to use open strings inside your
chords very much?
Jim (42:51):
Sometimes.
Generally try to avoid itbecause you never know what's
going to happen.
You leave a string open and itcan go yeah and scream at it.
So basically I try and covereverything with my fingers if I
can.
Geoff (43:02):
Well, I think that'll wrap it up nicely.
Thanks so much for your time,Jim.
Jim (43:05):
I hope there's something worth listening to.
Geoff (43:06):
Oh my, God, oh my God, I've had a ball.
I could talk to you all day.
Jim (43:09):
Well, you're welcome.
Any time you're in theneighbourhood, give us a shout,
come round for a cup of tea.
I will do that for sure.
Yeah, Good to see you again,Geoff.
Announcement (43:21):
Thank you for making it.
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