Literacy in the Early Years, an interview with Montessori Director Sarah Breckenridge

What's in this episode?

· What is the Montessori Method?

· A Montessori approach to literacy in the early years

· How to ensure that we use rich language with children

· How to display and organise books

· How we can talk with, read with and raise children respectfully

Books and humans mentioned:

· Why You Should Read Children's Books Even Though You Are So Old and Wise (2019) By Katherine Rundell

· Martin Amis (author)

· John Locke (philosopher)

· John Newberry (children's book publisher)

· Beatrix Potter (author, illustrator, natural scientist)

· Julia Donaldson (author)

· Oh Kipper (1992) By Janet and Andrew McLean

· Something Wonderful (2016) By Raewyn Caisley, illustrated by Karen Blair

· Oi Dog (2016) By Kes and Clare Gray, illustrated by Tim Field

· Dr Maria Montessori

· Oh the Places You'll Go (1990) By Dr Seuss

· Revolting Rhymes (1982) By Roald Dahl, illustrated by Quentin Blake

· The Captain Underpants Series By Dav Pilkey

· BBC Books and Authors Interview with author Katherine Rundell

· Julia Donaldson (author)

· Paddington Bear (children's book character)

· Winnie the Pooh (children's book character)

· Clifford, the Big Red Dog (1963) By Normal Bridwell

· The Little Prince/Le Petit Prince (1943) By Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

· The Very Hungry Caterpiller (1969) By Eric Carle

· The Lighthouse Keeper's Lunch (1977) By Ronda and David Armitage

· We're Going on a Bear Hunt (1989) Retold by Michael Rosen, illustrated by Helen Oxenbury

· Thomas the Tank Engine & Friends series

· William's Wish Wellingtons, BBC Children's Book, illustrated by Atholl McDonald

· Mr Gumpy's Outing (1970) By John Burningham

· The Harry Potter Series by J.K Rowling

· Hairy Maclary from Donaldson's Dairy (1983) By Lynley Dodd

· Bronwyn Bancroft (author)

· Alfie Gets in First (2009) By Shirley Hughes

· Alfie's Feet (2009) By Shirley Hughes

· Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (1964) By Roald Dahl

· Simplicity Parenting (2009) By Kim Jon Payne with Lisa M Ross

· The Aldi padded book series

· The Indestructible book series

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Over summer I read and loved an essay by children's book author Katherine Rundle

(00:05):
called Why You Should Read Children's Books Even Though You Are So Old and Wise.
In her essay she quotes a BBC interview with the late author Martin Amis.
Martin Amis says, people ask me if I ever thought of writing a children's book. I
say if I had a serious brain injury I might well write a children's book but

(00:26):
otherwise the idea of being conscious of who you're directing the story to is
anathema to me because in my view fiction is freedom and any restraints on
that are intolerable. He goes on to say I would never write about someone that
forced me to write at a lower register than what I can write. To me this quote
expresses a notion that children's books are lesser books and I feel that comes

(00:50):
with a smugness about adult superiority. Thankfully many clever people throughout
history, John Locke, John Newbery, Beatrix Potter and more recently Katherine
Rundle to name a few, actively campaigned for society to recognise and appreciate
children's literature and stories and for society to move towards creating

(01:10):
beautiful books for children to simply enjoy. Beatrix Potter famously insisted
on her books being made to fit comfortably into small hands. I also
think it is important to consider that it is not easy to create a brilliant
children's book. I once heard Julia Donaldson say this and now that I'm
currently trying to write one I understand. Some people would argue that

(01:33):
it is actually harder to make a brilliant children's book than a
brilliant grown-ups book. A children's picture book can't go on for 600 pages
but that doesn't mean that they are boring or easy to write. Just as a grown-up
book can be bad there are also some pretty awful picture books out there but
when they are good that is because the author has made sure that every single

(01:56):
word that they use is the perfect word for that story. Then the illustrator
comes along and often this is how the publishing world works. Without talking
to the author they must create the illustrations to complement that text.
When these two things are done well they create a work of art. I'm looking around
my desk and I can see a few books that I would consider works of art. I can see

(02:20):
Okipa, Something Wonderful and another book called Oi Dog and I'll link to all
of these books in the show notes. These books are all very different and yet
they all have something major in common. They show respect for the child as a
thinking breathing human who deserves and can handle high quality literature.

(02:40):
They show a huge amount of care and attention to detail and it is obvious
that all these authors and illustrators know how much a child can gain from a
picture book. Okay so you're probably all wondering why this is relevant to this
week's episode. Those of you who have listened to a few episodes will know
that I had to go on that little tangent and defend children's books but it is all

(03:05):
relevant. When I did hear that quote by Martin Amos about children's books and
interpreted it as this concept that children's books are lesser books I
decided that this week on the podcast we needed to talk about children and child
development and go right back to how we read and talk with children from when

(03:28):
they are newborn babies. So that's what this week's episode is all about. There
are lots of philosophies on child development but for this week on the
read aloud home I'm bringing in the ideas and educational philosophy developed
by Maria Montessori. Maria Montessori was an Italian doctor and educator who
lived from 1870 to 1952. Dr. Montessori is relevant to this week's podcast

(03:51):
because she considered the child to be a whole person that is a thinking feeling
human being not a mini adult not a project. I think it is a beautiful thing
when we look at what and how we read and talk to children when we move away from
the idea of them as mini adults. On today's podcast I am going to talk to

(04:13):
Sarah Breckenridge. Sarah introduced me to Montessori eight years ago. She's been
a Montessori guide for the zero to three age group for 13 years. Before that her
own children attended a Montessori school from three years old to 12 years
old. They're now 26 and 28. Today I'm going to meet Sarah in her classroom to

(04:33):
talk about Montessori and literacy in the early years mainly the under three
age group. She has a wealth of knowledge from her observation of children over
the years. I can't wait to share this podcast with you today. Hello my name is
Laura Cunningham and this is the read aloud home. This podcast is all about how

(04:55):
we can enjoy reading stories with children and how we can create a read
aloud home in a modern world. The podcast will give you ideas and inspiration for
creating the best possible read aloud environment in an age of unprecedented
technological distractions. Yes I do believe it is possible. Today the read
aloud home is recording on the land of the Gadigal people.

(05:20):
Welcome Sarah Breckenridge to the read aloud home. It's really great to have
you here today. It's taken us a little while to get here between working and
little kids and moving and all that but so good to have you here today. We are
actually recording today in Sarah's Montessori classroom which is I'm
looking around and I can see lots of things. I can see a small child-sized

(05:44):
sink, books displayed in a small bookcase facing out and at the child's height. I
can see, I can hear some little birds. Little zebra finches. Little zebra
finches and I can see lots of really beautiful indoor plants and there's a
lot of natural light flooding through the windows. So that's a great environment

(06:06):
for us to be recording today. Sarah can you please introduce yourself? Thank you
Laura. Well first of all I'm originally from the UK and I came out some well 30
odd years ago now and came to Montessori through my children finding a school and
a community. I was actually a nurse at the time and continued to continue to

(06:28):
carry on with my nursing. I did counselling and I also did children's
nursing so all of that turned out to be incredibly helpful when I decided once
my children had left the school when they were 12 to actually go back in and
do some training. So the idea of working with families of naught to three-year-olds

(06:48):
which is the age group that I'm trained in allowed me to really think about that
preventative health in some respects. It was about giving the child and the
family the opportunity and the understanding to reach their full
potential. So I've been doing that now for the last 12 years and continue to
enjoy and love it. Every day is different. Each time I have a guest on the podcast

(07:11):
I asked them to read us a piece of their favourite children's literature. Do you
want to read something to us today? One of my favourite is Roald Dahl's
revolting rhymes and rhythms and because that is so fabulous for the six and
above because they just love how naughty it is. It's so naughty. He really was

(07:32):
amazing with language wasn't he? Oh good, really really good and it's again it's a
joy to read. It's a joy to read. It's a rollicking. That joy comes out. I remember reading the boys I
think it was Captain Underpants. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh I had to stop reading at one
point because I was just laughing. It's a lovely shared experience. Yes. But I

(07:57):
would really like to choose a Dr. Seuss book and my favourite is Oh the Places
You'll Go. Love it. I think that his books are severely underrated and there's
obviously been a lot of bad press about them just lately. Well some of them have
been yes some of them have been I think they've stopped publishing a handful of
them. Yeah yeah and in the same way as some of the Roald Dahl's too. Oh yes. They

(08:22):
have really sort of changed the literature on that. I think it's you
know again that's another topic in itself but it's a loss of the language
that explains to us about a different era and allows for a really interesting
conversation and my understanding is now there are the Roald Dahl classics. Yes.
And then the new publications. Yeah I think that that's why I did read that as
well. Yeah. But Dr. Seuss really had lots of hidden messages in his book and one

(08:48):
of my other favourites is the Lorax. The Lorax yeah. And that was environmentalism
way before its time. And what's the other one there's the one with the spots
or stars on their chest to come in what it's called. Again it was all about racism.
Yeah. And biases to different cultures and things. But this one is a book that I

(09:09):
give to all 18 year olds and of course when I give it to any of my 18 year old
nieces and nephews they look at me somewhat you know. Really? I go yeah really.
Read it and then come back to me. Because what I didn't realise until
quite recently was it was his last publication. Yeah. It was published in 1990.

(09:31):
Yeah wow. He was 89. Oh wow I didn't know that. And it's the only book that is in
the first person. And when we consider the content it is a real reflection of
he's talking about where life goes. Yeah wow. The choice is oh the place is your go.

(09:51):
I won't go from start to finish. But you know it's just this lovely sort of
repetition that he does and again I think for creative children or just for
the ability to visualise something creatively his illustrations are equally
exciting. So for people just waiting. Waiting for a train to go or a bus to

(10:15):
come or a plane to go or the mail to come or the rain to go or the phone to
ring or the snow to snow or waiting around for a yes or no or waiting for
their hair to grow. Everyone is just waiting. Waiting for the fish to bite or
waiting for the wind to fly a kite or waiting around for Friday night or

(10:37):
waiting perhaps for their uncle Jake or a pot to boil or a better break or a
string of pearls or a pair of pants or a wig with curls or another chance.
Everyone is just waiting. I love that one. I love that part of the book.
The kids always look at it and want to see which where's everyone on the page

(11:01):
doing their waiting. And you sort of read it you go yeah you know we're always waiting for
something else. It's a really good reminder of the fact that we should
actually be living here and now. Yeah absolutely. Yeah which I guess from what
you've just said about where he was at when he wrote it he really reflected.

(11:22):
He really reflected yeah. I was gonna ask you what you love about this piece of
literature. Do you feel like you've answered that? Anything else you
wanted to add? Yeah no I feel like I've answered it but you know if anyone's
really interested it's sometimes really interesting to see where the author
comes from. Dr. Seuss was actually a really interesting man. He was from a
German family. They were very an Austrian family. They were very wealthy and then

(11:48):
when the war came he was very strong in supporting propaganda against the Nazis.
You know I think that paved a lot of his own life and his mother was very much
into drama and creativity. We have Roald Dahl who had a lot of losses in his life.
Yes. Who had a very tough upbringing at boarding school. Yeah I did read about

(12:09):
that. Again his autobiographies Boy and Man are fascinating books to read
and they really give you insight to where someone's writing from. And I
actually did read that Dr. Seuss, we were talking about phonics before
and he got given a list of words that children, something like this, got
given a list of words that children need to learn before a particular age and he

(12:32):
was like all right I'm gonna put this into a book and I think that's sort of
how he almost got going. And that hot so you know the words to read the words
yeah allows you to really hear the sound. Yeah. And again we're talking about the
interest of the child. The silly words is what interests them. Absolutely. And they

(12:55):
know that they're silly and made up. And if you think in a three to six class when
children are learning to write before they read and so they make up the word
as the sounds come. Yes. They can start to see the silly again in inverted commas
yeah silly words but they can see that the sounds are right. Absolutely. So I

(13:20):
was wondering if you could share with us do you have any childhood memories of
reading books or being read to? My mother loved books and I think actually she
really struggled with the fact that not that I didn't love books but as I grew
older I had great difficulty with reading and with spelling and so that was a real

(13:40):
challenge for her that I didn't quite pick her up as quickly as she would like
to. But I also loved learning because she was always reading to me and I think one
of the first books that I really felt that I could read myself was Little House
on the Prairie and I just really loved Laura in that book. So that really helped

(14:01):
me find that love of reading on my own at that point so that was really really
really beautiful opportunity to have. And my mom would take me to the library. So
it was that opportunity of going to this place and choosing what you wanted not
necessarily having to stick with the same books always going and finding
something different which I really enjoyed. So I think that's probably yeah

(14:22):
my strongest memory. It's so nice that your first book was Little House on the
Prairie. I've just gotten to the fourth book with my kids and it's not my
youngest one's first book that he's read himself but it's his first the first
chapter book that he's really been able to tune into. He's just mesmerized by
you know their life, their very different life yet they're still in their

(14:47):
childhood and he can really sense that. Yeah it's very descriptive. You really
can see, you know obviously neither yourself nor I live in that sort of
prairie setup but I could visualize that and obviously when I was
reading, god I sound like I'm out of the arc, but we weren't exposed to the
visual feedback that children do now so we really did have to use our mind's eye

(15:13):
in some respects. As in sort of not exposed to the screen time that children
are exposed to. Yeah and just even the fact that screens are around them in all sorts of
ways. Yeah. So they get to see a lot more of the world. Yes. Than we were exposed to
20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago. As a Montessori guide I was wondering if

(15:36):
you could tell us what Montessori, the Montessori philosophy is in a nutshell.
I know it's very, this is like the, what do they call it, the elevator pitch. Yes. And I
think Montessori is incredibly difficult to do that with because there are so
many facets about it. But for me in a nutshell I'd use one word. It's about

(15:59):
respect. Because we respect the child, we respect the environment, we respect
our community and we respect the greater world. Montessori wasn't about education,
she was actually about how to ensure peace was prevailed and the only way she

(16:19):
could see peace prevailing in the world was through teaching children about it
and she didn't feel that we as adults had understandings of the need for
diplomacy and respect of others. If you respect someone else, why would you go to
war with them? How does a Montessori classroom work differently to a
mainstream classroom would you say? I suppose that comes into that idea of

(16:44):
people have polar views from an outside point of view of a Montessori classroom.
They either see it as very rigid or they see it where children can just do what
they like. It is neither of those things. We appreciate that children need to move
and so there is freedom of movement in a classroom so I think that's a big
difference. We also have all our classes are three year age groups so you have

(17:10):
your learner and you have your leader so they also have that opportunity three or
four times in their schooling life to go from the bottom to the top whereas you
know in a more conventional system they work their way to the top and then they
have the almighty fall when they get to high school. Whereas our children will

(17:31):
have done that at least three times which is a really nice opportunity for
them to have. Also that idea about movement, children need to move. They need
to also then learn how to be respectful in the environment of moving around
their peers. We are as I said earlier about that idea of respect, we're
respectful of our colleagues in the room as in the children's friends. They're

(17:56):
respectful of them. They have to have what we would refer to as grace and
courtesy so we are respectful and polite to the children in the same way we have
an expectation that that will be what they do to us and to their friends. Our
job as a director in a classroom is not to teach which is to sort of fill a
vessel with information. Ours is more about being directors. We direct them to

(18:21):
that learning. We follow the child so we might have a child who's really really
interested in maths and so then we go well what about their literacy? They're
really not interested, they don't share any interest. So it will be the
director's role to see how they can incorporate literacy into the maths
materials or vice versa. So there is this is really the role of the director is to

(18:46):
observe that individual child, see where their strengths are and see where their
challenges are and support both. Knowing that they have that child for three years
they haven't got to meet a benchmark within 12 months. They've got that space
and so that allows a child particularly when they first come into a classroom to
find their way. So they may spend a lot of time just waltzing around

(19:09):
the room. You know if you come in and you see these kids just hanging on out
looking at what their mates are doing not doing anything and you think oh my
gosh you know why are we sending them here? But it's all part of that
absorption. Yeah. You know they're watching what someone does and so that
when they go to pick it up they already know what they're doing. Yeah yeah I've

(19:30):
seen that in action and it's you can see you can see them watching how the
classroom works and like really getting a feel for it which I think makes a lot
of sense. So in terms of literacy and reading how do you think that it
changes our experience of literacy and reading with children when we embrace

(19:50):
the Montessori concepts of following the child and the child looking at the child
as a whole person not just you know segmenting these parts of them. Yeah yeah.
I think even like that example I gave you as being a child myself who did had
challenges around the reading but who loved it. Yeah. And so how do how do I

(20:14):
ensure that that child who loves it is supported properly and the one who
doesn't have a love of it I don't want to say well this is the book that you
have to have read by this time and so why will I ever find a love of learning?
So if it is that I am a much more science math space person then let's
read something about science and math. Yeah. This is another way where we'll

(20:38):
follow the interest of the child to ignite their interest in something.
Certainly I remember seeing it with one of my children who apparently had no
interest in reading all the way up to stage two which was you know in six to
nine year olds and everything had been done and checked we did they haven't
even had him sort of you know checked out his abilities and so on and the

(21:02):
Harry Potter books came out and he went from as far as we were concerned not
reading yeah to reading essentially a novel and that was because he had been
reading he'd been reading all the bits and pieces around the room but he just
had no love of sitting and reading a book. Yeah. And as a younger as my younger

(21:22):
child and seeing my older child who loved to read you know we can sometimes
be as the parent is really trying to push something and in some sense what
we're doing is we're pushing them away. Yeah. That's why for me it's really
important to follow the lead as a child because what we want them to do when

(21:42):
they're going by the time they get to high school is to have a love of learning
yeah you don't have a love by the time you get to high school you are gonna
find it great difficult to getting it. Yeah my youngest is very he's a very
easygoing sort of he's always been open to reading whatever I've sort of made
available and I really noticed so so from zero to six that was fine and I

(22:07):
had such a broad range of stuff at home that I was you know I didn't feel like I
was restricting him and if we were ever at the bookshop or the library and there
was something he wanted of course we would get that but I guess I was the
primary sort of person to use it selector and it just all changed when he
got to six and he moved to stage two it was almost like anything I did suggest

(22:28):
was an automatic no and so I sort of have really had to pull back and
sometimes I leave things lying around the house that he may pick up but I've
left it it's in the balls in his court now and he can sort of make those choices
for himself I think that's a really good lesson as a parent it's a little bit

(22:49):
like a child may really I mean and this is perhaps more so in that adolescent
period where children are going to find computers and computer games and so on
it's really your responsibility as a parent to ask them about it because even
if it's something that you don't like yeah and you know it's really gonna be

(23:09):
challenging for you to do it for the child to know that you show an interest
and for you actually to listen to why they like it is a really valuable yeah
way of keeping that communication open and making it much easier to negotiate
yeah I think the one I was thinking was even guns yes my kids are yes they
live by guns and I'm like guns and violence guns and violence and I'm like

(23:31):
well I sort of feel I still need to discuss that with them even though I
don't particularly want to talk about guns because I have zero interest in
guns but obviously there's something for them that is interesting I have
relatives grew up on farms yeah and guns were part and parcel of their life yeah

(23:52):
but their respect of those guns yes is incredible yeah they don't see them as
toys they don't see them as something that is to use with violence against
somebody yeah I see them for a purpose yeah see the importance of you know
really being sensible and careful with them so yeah I think that that was

(24:13):
definitely something for me with boys they just they seem to be you know
again it's a sweeping statement but a lot of them will gravitate towards that
and I always used to feel more comfortable when they were looking at
war things about the Romans but why is that any different to you know military

(24:34):
hardware today yeah and so yeah it's a really good opportunity for to us to
look at our biases and really explore those so Maria Montessori was writing
about the concept of the absorbent mind over half a century ago I was wondering
if you could explain what is the absorbent mind gosh that's in a nutshell

(24:57):
I think again this is probably something that really draws me to Montessori the
fact that she was a doctor and so she Montessori theory is not a theory in
that it's a thought it's actually all to do with her observations of childhood
development so children have not changed the way they develop over those hundred

(25:19):
years what has changed is the world around them so the foundations of
principles that we put in place for Montessori have essentially not changed
for that very reason one of the things that has been really advantageous for
us in recent years is that all the neurological studies back up what she

(25:41):
had seen through observation this is the difference with medical staff in her
time compared to medical stuff in hours where they're reliant on results and
tests what used to happen when we didn't have all of these machinery in place you
had to do it through observation and watch the whole situation and so she

(26:01):
spent so many years just doing hours of an hours of observation and that's a
really big part of our training and the child underneath under six is referred
to this a child of the absorbent mind I like to think of it even more so as the
child under three because they are the unconscious mind so there is absolutely

(26:25):
no such thing as a child under three being dare I use that word naughty
because they just do not have the neurological capacity to do so they may
well appear to be testing you as they repeat something that you've asked them
not to do a million times but that's really your your little explorer your

(26:46):
you know your scientist who's going what yes so if I do that does that happen if
I do it again does it if I look at her and I do it again does it still happen oh
my gosh it still does because what we forget as the adult is that we have to
repeat something to learn it we never learn something once you know I love

(27:08):
that analogy of how to drive a car you know when they first get into a car and
certainly if you're in a manual car that's even harder you know this whole
idea of having to learn what gear you're in and you've got your brakes and you've
got your accelerator and oh my god you want me to look at what's on the road as
well whereas now you know you as a as a competent driver you get into the car

(27:32):
and you can use the energy to look at what's ahead of you look what's behind
you what's happening in around you and you don't think about those other things
yes yeah you go to another country and you change the side that you drive and
think how hard it is because you automatically go to use the limbs that
you would use in your car in the UK or in Australia yeah yeah we're using our

(27:57):
muscle memory yeah and that's what we're doing with children they have to be able
to move to learn and the absorption happens by just doing how many parents
can tell the story of well there's the classic one of saying a word they wish
they hadn't said in front of a child or I remember one dad telling me the story

(28:18):
of flicking a fly in the kitchen with a tea towel and his under three-year-old
could not be allowed to see a tea towel because that's all he would do thereafter
and those things that you want them to learn yes take a lot of repetition yeah
yeah the things you don't know how they seem to absorb them on the moment we can

(28:40):
all we can all automatically think of this so really what we're talking about
is that the with the absorbent mind is what science will now tell us that the
child's brain is just alive it's none of it is actually truly functioning when a
baby is born and they're not a clean slate they do have stuff there and we

(29:04):
really know that our temperament is in place with through our DNA so that's the
nature but then the next biggest effect on us is the nurture and the environment
that we're in and there's a really lovely story that I love that comes from
Montessori about having three sponges and the sponge represents the brain and

(29:26):
then you have three dishes of water and one of them is full of an abundance of
clear water one of them has a little clear water in it and the other one has
muddy water and of course you put the sponges in and they will absorb what's
there that's what our brain does you know often you know we automatically use

(29:48):
that like language we often say oh they're like little sponges yes or you
know when they're learning to speak they're suddenly like that little parrot
yes that repeats everything it's really interesting for us in the environment
you know we are really mindful about how we use our hands and how we use our
language mm-hmm so for a new child in the environment it doesn't necessarily

(30:14):
have to be an age-related thing it's usually 15 months is really pivotal in
when they start learning bigger things and you know over 15 months they're
usually well onto the way of movement and language but it's where they
suddenly have this ability to be able to manage a little bit more and so what we

(30:35):
have to be careful though is when we show them something often as a parent
we'll be going oh and here's the tops and here's the bottoms and we put this
one here and we put that one there and we're moving it at the same time if I
stop talking and I just show them in clear movements not my hands busy over
the other one or whatever the child will be transfixed if it interests them yeah

(31:00):
I've seen this in action in your so it's like if your hands are moving your lips
are still yeah your lips are moving your hands are still so it might well say to
them oh yeah this is a green box and we've got this ball and it goes in the
top watch then I stop so the language is really obviously very important yeah but

(31:21):
the two together can be really challenging for a child because they are
trying to absorb it and it's really hard work we don't talk about play as such
not because what they do isn't playful but it's actually hard work they are
working we have an hour and a half class and by the end of the class they are
exhausted yeah you know they've worked really really hard both managing their

(31:46):
movements and then emotions yes and all of the other bits and pieces so yeah so
I suppose yeah essentially think think of the the absorbent mind as that sponge
and we've got we're looking to put the best into it to absorb

(32:14):
I was going to ask how do parents lay the foundation for literacy in the 0 to
3 age group you don't use good job there's a very strong memory of me
letting this you try and give them richer language in your response to what
they have done exactly exactly so one of the things that I certainly became very

(32:38):
aware of the more I do this work is the value of language for the child this is
this absorbent mind that is taking in the power of language and so we want to
give them the best language that we can so for a start we will we will call
things what they are yes you know it is a dog or it is a chicken yeah it is a

(33:01):
kitten it's not a kitty it's not a bunny yeah it will use the real names yes yeah
if we've got a selection of dogs we will call them this is the Alsatian this is
the poodle yeah don't dumb it down because we want them to have the
opportunity to learn the real things and the other thing that I saw argue on this

(33:22):
one is why would you spend your time doing teaching two lots why can't you
teach the right thing first yeah why do you have to undo something or set the
child up to be confused because somebody else calls it something else I mean a
very strong example of that for us is I will refer to a child's vulva or their

(33:42):
penis because if we start giving those names that you know are specific to our
family then if there's somewhere else then there can be great confusion yes and
so it's it feels certainly when you first start doing it with a young child
it seems it feels really uncomfortable and a little odd and it's really odd

(34:03):
when it comes out of their mouth too but you want to respect the child yeah and
appreciate that there's no reason why they can't learn it and just like you
said that idea of praising children we won't go into the whole story of praise
here but certainly one of the things I always say is a better way to support a
child when they've done something well is to reiterate what they have done wow

(34:26):
I see you've put your shoes on and that still has for the parent that still
allows you to show your joy we're seeing them do that but what you're actually
saying to them is you did that yeah that's yours that's the intrinsic
motivation that you are giving not the extrinsic of what's important to me yeah

(34:47):
that was a big learning curve but I'm still glad that I that I do that now okay
so I was going to ask another question this one's gonna be a bit long-winded
for me so I was listening to a BBC podcast with one of my favorite
children's book authors Catherine Rundle the interviewer stated that for many of

(35:09):
us our first encounters with stories are entwined with animals he mentions
Beatrix Potter Julia Donaldson and Paddington Bear and he asks her if
these anthropomorphic characters are just cute or do these stories speak to
a deeper connection between the human and the animals Catherine Rundle
responds to this and these are her words I think one of the reasons we have

(35:31):
always turned to animals as a way of explaining the world to children is that
animals in being alive animate our stories with their own beauty they give
our stories bite and another is that we live alongside a living world and have
always wanted to explain it to ourselves often in haphazard and mad ways and

(35:52):
sometimes as a way of telling children this is something to hold dear however
anthropomorphized animals are a form of fantasy and I do know that fantasy in
the under six age group is not recommended within the Montessori
philosophy so I was wondering if you could just maybe explain this a little
bit so I suppose we all go back to that idea of Winnie the Pooh

(36:15):
Beatrix Potter is it the big blue dog with the red tie is one of the ones as
well or is it the big red dog with the blue tie so again when you're trying to
help this child this is this is like a little alien coming to another planet
I'm trying to think now that beautiful French book about the child from another

(36:40):
planet oh gosh it's left me it'll come oh not the little prince the little
prince yes exactly so the little prince is trying to make sense of the world
completely different sort of sense of story but that idea that you're coming
and you're taking things literally so if I say to a child when we're out for a
walk oh there's a dog and then we get back and we have a story about a dog and

(37:05):
it's chatting away and it's wearing a bow tie hmm that is actually or and particularly
for some temperaments so not for all children but for some children that can
be really challenging also that idea so basically we're talking about fantasy
not to be about imagination yeah there are two distinctly different things yeah

(37:26):
so fantasy is your Winnie the Poohs your animals that are dressed up and talking
those books will come into their own and children will love them the same way as
you did once they start reading once they have that mental capacity to
understand the difference between reality and fantasy and it's actually for

(37:48):
some children it's really not healthy to get lost in that world of fantasy it's
also deceiving but as far as the literacy side of things is concerned with the
under three-year-old I want to give them a rich language and I want to give them
a real language that they can start using so as much as I will tell you I
love Dr. Zeus books I love fantasy books I would not be using those with children

(38:12):
until I know that I can read them and they can enjoy them for what they are I
don't want to read them a fantasy book that has you know the scary troll and
then find I have a child that actually is really having great difficulty going
to sleep who's afraid of the dark you know again we as adults forget that some
children really do take that literally and it becomes very very fearful that

(38:36):
makes a lot of sense I was wondering is the very hungry caterpillar fantasy or
it Montessori approved it's a Montessori approved it's a it's about you know and
more it's it's looking at nature at its best yeah and it's making it very

(38:56):
understandable to a child you know this little egg turns into this tiny little
wiggly thing yeah that then eats and eats and eats and eats and it's talking
about foods that essentially they may well recognize yeah so it still turns
into that butterfly it's a little bit like you're saying that the fact that we

(39:17):
do use animals for children they love I've got a book on that shelf over there
which is all about animals and it is drawn pictures of animals they talk
about baby animals again we're giving them a rich language this is a foal it's
the baby horse yeah and this is you know a chick and this is the bait this is a
hen's baby so they still love to have animals yeah Harry McCleary is another

(39:42):
example yeah it's it's a normal dog and we're using that language that makes it
fun to understand about it yeah so it's yeah it's moving away I guess sort of in
in my question with the very hungry caterpillar and I was thinking about
another book which is called the lighthouse keepers lunch I don't know if

(40:03):
you know it yes do you know we love it the kids we love lighthouses so I always
read it to them since they were little and technically it's reality like it's
not fantasy but it's quite implausible in a way for a young child but that's
different right it's different because everything in it is still real yeah yeah
yeah it's like going for a bear hunt yes it's yeah you know that's let's hope

(40:26):
that's not gonna happen yeah and you know it's really beautiful language
there's repetition yes sound words rather than actual necessarily words all
the time but it's again it's it's got that rhythm to it so one of the things
when you asked earlier about how we bring language in for the under three
year old we know there's a lot of research that says one of the greatest

(40:48):
ways to bring language in is through rhythm and through singing and you know
I will often say when when all else is failing and the wheels are falling off
you start singing you know make it up as you go along yeah because we know that
worked really really well I've seen you do that in your class wrap things up a

(41:08):
little early start soft okay so I was gonna ask you if you followed the no
fantasy rule for your own children who I know are now 26 and 28 yeah not so much
it's a lovely because I didn't have my Montessori training at that point in
time and like I said although I was a late reader I love I said I still I love

(41:34):
children's books I just adore them I think I'm trying to think again we were
born my first was born in the UK there was Thomas the Tank yeah yeah that was
huge in my day or in their day and Williams wish Wellington's now that
wasn't truly fantasy there was again there was this stretch of what you're

(41:58):
going to call is is imagine and what's fantasy yeah I really think of fantasy as
that idea of unicorns yeah fairies dragons things that we know do not exist
yes sorry to upset you know things that don't exist yeah so then it may well be
that there's a John Burlington book which is about a number of different

(42:23):
animals that end up coming into a boat with him and they go looking for
something and fall out I can't quite remember the run of the story but again
you know someone isn't going to be going in a boat and put the cow in and the
sheep and you know all the rest but they're all real yeah and in the same
way as visually they're real yes so be it a line drawing or because that's

(42:44):
another important one to think about is I might show the child a picture of a
cow hmm or a photograph of a cow but I could also show them the picture of a
cow and it may be painted or it may be a pencil drawing and they're all going to
be different yeah but they are all a cow you know representation of that that
again it's not fantasy yes not a green cow I actually found I mean I haven't

(43:09):
really followed the rule very well because I just couldn't resist doing a
few few things but I do know that did notice that in the in the early years
that they didn't tend to resonate those those real fantasy fantasy stories and
they didn't resonate with the kids that much and probably for that reason in

(43:31):
that they couldn't really relate to them yeah and yeah they're still sort of
working out their own world so what what does a unit you know what does a unicorn
matter in a way like is it is it that interesting yeah so but yet now we're
deep in you know and that's why it's so beautiful is once they have a really

(43:51):
good grasp of it and particularly when we talk about creative writing yes they
go to town on it yeah our younger children are going to use their
imagination yeah and that's when you can see them use objects to represent you or
I or whatever yeah and imagination we would truly support so I was gonna ask
and I can see it in the classroom based on the Montessori philosophy how should

(44:15):
books be displayed for young children well just like you just said with a
love of books mm-hmm as parents I could go into a parents home and there will be
a million books so first of all I would say pull right back yeah and for
particularly for the under three-year-old you know I wouldn't really

(44:37):
have much more than six books even if that and you know I'd be increasing it
to six as they sort of got a little older and do not change them too quickly
and look at the ones what are the ones that they you know as a parent we want
to change them because we've read that one book six million times yeah and it's
really really getting tedious yes you put that one away and they're gonna be

(44:57):
really upset about it yeah so there may be that one particular book but we might
start to move around that yeah that's where I think the library comes in
really yeah beautifully because it may be a phase that they're moving through
they also have the joy of going and finding it yeah the library and the
other thing is having almost like a little library of your own at home so

(45:18):
you know you might go to change the books so you go to where they are kept
yes that may be out of the reach of the child and that may be where they're
stacked by their bind what I want in it for a child is for the book to be placed
so that they can see the front cover because that's what's going to attract
them to the book it's quite nice to have we sing you know as you just said we we

(45:42):
always have a song time at the end of our classes and it's quite good to print
out the words of that song and so it's twinkle twinkle little star and you
would have some stars on the picture too and it might be old McDonald's farm and
so you have some animals through it so that they can actually go and choose
their song yeah yeah yeah I remember that so those sorts of things are really

(46:06):
lovely as well and those rhymes and rhythms are a great one to have as well
yeah and which books do you always have in your classroom I know you may have
mentioned a few but you can do the list again there's always a preference
depending on who's putting books out yeah colleague we will generally always

(46:29):
have some sort of book that relates to move vehicles vehicles yeah it's so at
the moment I know we've got the tipper truck we've got the bulldozer we've got
the crane book mm-hmm and again it's making a huge sweeping statement but
most of the boys just really love it and they're quite big books as well so I

(46:51):
like to have a mixture of sizes yeah so we always have a book that relates to
some sort of vehicle mm-hmm we usually always have a book about animals as well
mm-hmm we I those sort of ones are good because they're generally a picture and
they might have a word underneath it or not mm-hmm and so that's really where

(47:12):
the child can enjoy that book on their own too and they can do yes sometimes I
will see them again they're going yeah and they're chatting away obviously
reading it to themselves in inverted commas the other one that I like then for
a parent to share is we may have like the moment we've got going on a bear
hunt yes and I love to have the Harry McClary yeah one of those series in

(47:37):
there just the rhyme of that is just so glorious yeah you know it's a joy to
read it is yeah and it is so you know it's it is Montessori but it's also so
I mean it's amazing that it is a real story in that sort of yeah it is so

(47:57):
theatrical and fun but it's really just like a pack of dogs going for a walk and
then seeing a cat and getting scared and like you said almost in that sense of
when we're talking about fantasy these are dogs with character exactly that's
what I think that's what I was trying to say yeah a lot of character but it's not
a fantasy no yes face it you know every we all know dogs either our own or

(48:19):
somebody else's yeah they all have a character exactly yeah and then Scarface
Clore of course has a character as characters as well absolutely yeah
absolutely and again in regards to that as a scary thing it's a real thing that
might be scary yeah in the same way as a child might be scared of a dog yeah yes

(48:39):
and so that's a much easier thing to explain to a child yeah and support
them with yes yeah and I was actually gonna say that to you with going on a
bear hunt I mean it's sort of it's you can almost be like well that's why we
don't go into a bear cave like that's a lot easier to say than well I don't you
know something so fantastical that it's it's hard to make sense for the for the

(49:04):
young child yeah yeah I think you did mention also that you were gonna you
have an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander book mostly in your yeah yeah
so again and also we try to be mindful of the fact that we have a multicultural
environment or population and so you know we may have a book that looks at a

(49:25):
particular cultural celebration or more so as we get a little older than this
age group yeah this age group it's really nice to have those books I like
trying to think of her surname now her first name now but Bancroft Bromwyn
Bromwyn yeah yeah yeah beautiful illustrations they're really really
clear yeah animals that they recognize but they also have that strong

(49:48):
Aboriginal yes to them so yes they're great for them to have in yes and I
think that's also more of a reminder for our generation mm-hmm
though children coming up it's just a second place yeah for them you know they
don't think twice about it and the other one that I can't go past saying is the
Alfie series oh yes by Shirley Hughes and what I love about that is it's just

(50:10):
so relatable yeah to I mean again for me it's very relatable it reminds me so
much of my own yeah childhood yeah into the English Beach and all the rest yeah
but that's also something you can sometimes do with your children it's a
glorious thing these days if you know you when you have a holiday and you take
your photographs well then immediately use one of those services that will put

(50:32):
it into a little book yeah yeah and that was our holiday yeah we can talk about
it so books don't have to have words for them even for older children we always
have a language material which is just a picture yeah it allows us to do an
expansive language yeah it allows us to go yeah you do remember we did we have
an ice cream oh yeah you had the strawberry ice cream didn't you yes so

(50:55):
and so had the chocolate ice cream and so it's really evocative and it will
allow them to really start expressing themselves I was saying to a friend
about the Alfie I mean I love the the Alfie series those Shirley Hughes I mean
if if anyone observed children as much as Maria Montessori I think it was
probably Shirley Hughes because she just captures in the illustrations the way you

(51:19):
know even like children the way they hold their hands you know it's just she
obviously really looked at them and and captured that those mini details and I
just love that there's a story about someone get a child getting locked out
of the house or a story about them putting gumboots on the wrong feet I
mean for little kids to see to see that in a book I think is so it's so nice and

(51:43):
it's so relatable so relatable and it means that they it shows it you know
they can they're so good at being they're not there for that that this
huge thing that happens at the end necessarily it's no it's a small story
with something does happen but it's not like you know it's not like I'm trying
to think of like a really big like a Roald Dahl sort of Charlie and the

(52:04):
Chocolate Factory kind of this massive thing has to happen it's enough which is
so lovely and again that comes back to the idea the fact that as adults we feel
they need more yeah nine times out of ten they need a less yeah way less than
we're trying to give them yeah and I'm one another really good parenting book
that I read when I just went back to revisit this and see what he said about

(52:26):
books simplicity parenting Kim Jong Kim Jong pain or something yeah and he just
talks about how all they get definitely toys and books and I find this hard to
say because we have so many books but pair it right back especially for the
little kids like yeah like you said before you don't need an excessive amount

(52:47):
rotating them for your own sanity exactly yeah for both for your sanity in
that respect but you know you can rotate leaving that favorite one behind yeah I
would say the same about the toys that they have out yeah you know see the ones
that are their favorite yeah and see what it is about them and maybe then you
step it up so if it's like the child threading yeah well let's see what else

(53:11):
we can thread which is a little bit more challenging yes but we'll keep the easy
chat threading there still same with like a jigsaw if you know yeah that
really likes jigsaws you know you're looking to just up the ante a little bit
but keep the reassurance of the ones that they know they can do too yeah and
with my own kids we do it I do a thing at night where they we do three books so

(53:32):
they'll each choose one and I'll choose one and so I'll sort of subconsciously
do that I'll be like if they've chosen themselves something really challenging
I'll choose something a little bit I think nice I do this like just not quite
naturally now but I'll choose something that's a little bit easier because I
know by the end of you know three books my younger one will be you know it'll be
a challenge to get through three really really big ones so it's sort of I'll try

(53:55):
and balance it out a bit so with the younger the under three age group one of
the challenges for parents can be the way they manipulate maneuver a book but
also one of the things that I think is really important is to how to teaching
them how to approach a book in a way obviously they can do it yeah like they

(54:16):
want to but I off you know you always will put it down open the front cover
and turn the pages at the corner do you have any advice on on this definitely
what I've actually seen a lot of lately which I really love is pop-up books used
to be wallpaper yes and parents would be terribly precious about showing the

(54:39):
child it because of course what the child will go to do is pull it yes yeah
whereas now I see a lot more that are felt or you know flat books and yeah
or fabrics of some form that allow the child to really take that full
sensorial learning from it so the child under six we teach as a sensorial being

(55:01):
mm-hmm their senses and that's you know the usual five that we think of plus
what also comes into that is about balance and time knowing where they are
in time and space and also listening to their own internal needs hunger sleep
and going to the toilet but one of the things that can be a drawback for

(55:24):
children is that when they're little we can be very resistant over letting them
touch a book yes showing them the pictures but they really want to touch
it so we want to make sure that we're showing the books that they are okay to
use there are a selection around and it's really about looking at what's a
good design mm-hmm there are little tiny cardboard books and children really love

(55:45):
them because they're small yes and they can hold them yeah so you know that I
usually have one of those in my collection of bits and pieces sometimes
what you've got to be really careful of is particularly when they're new the hard
back books can be really really hard for them to turn covers one of the parents
suggested to me once that she puts an elastic band on pages so it actually

(56:09):
holds the pages apart so you know like it goes over the book over the page yeah
so it goes down to the bind it does mean that the book doesn't actually close
yeah it stays all open so don't you be a short period of time that you perhaps
might do that yeah and another design that I've sort of noticed in fact Aldi
do a whole range of when they do their books there's one that comes out that

(56:33):
the front and back cover is quite sort of padded it's got a yeah I feel to it
yeah and then it's the cardboard pages inside yeah for some reason they just
seem to turn very well okay and I think it's again that the front and the back
cover are different yeah they don't hold them together yes and the last one that
I that sort of turned up in the recent years is there's a book series called

(56:57):
the indestructible book mm-hmm and they are basically made out of the material
like currency paper notes yeah so they have some sort of coating on them that
it allows the child to feel what it's like to turn a page yeah and you don't
have to stress out about it because they can scrunch it up they can put it in
their mouth they can stand on it whatever they like to do it's not gonna

(57:22):
rip you can easily wipe them down with a wet cloth yeah you can iron them to
flatten them out but let me just point out that if you're going to iron them
put a piece of fabric between your iron and the book yes got it so yeah they're
a lovely series and they've got nursery rhymes which again yeah another really

(57:43):
good opportunity for language yeah nursery rhymes maybe be careful of the
nursery rhymes that you choose there's some stairs because that's really pretty
gruesome what it are yeah but they're another nice one too yeah okay awesome thank
you so much for coming on the podcast so we've you for having me I really
appreciate you all your time my pleasure thank you