We talk about giraffes, Sir Astley Cooper the surgeons surgeon, we hear how a milk maid and a rural Dr changed all of our lives, bodysnatchers, the man who wrote Grays Anatomy is a tale that will fascinate and delight. And David drops in some history going back to the 13th century.
Yes another eye poppingly interesting meander through the fascinating world of The Real Anatomist with Dr David Robson.
We finish with a brief look at the amazing human skeleton - teeing us up nicely for Ep. 6 which will be out on 1st November.
Enjoy and please share and subscribe. Thank you.
Dr David Robson is a practicing Anatomist who lives and works in Edinburgh.
Click here to contact Dr David Robson directly
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
You're listening to The Real Anatomist podcast with
myself, Alison Craig, and Dr.
David Robson, MD, MA, who is TheReal Anatomist.
If you like the podcast, pleasesubscribe and share.
Thanks.
Welcome along to episode four ofThe Real Anatomist.
(00:22):
And this month, we are going tobe talking about Sir Astley
Cooper, another incrediblyinteresting historic character
within the world of anatomy.
Edward Jenner, a doctor wholived in the centre of England
and changed part of the medicalworld, which has affected us
(00:43):
all.
And we touch on so many othertopics within the conversation
because we always just sit downand have a good chat over a cup
of tea.
And I have to say, I apologisefor the number of times I say
extraordinary, but it is.
So here we are.
Enjoy.
Well, welcome along to The RealAnatomist.
(01:04):
My name's Alison Craig and I'min conversation with Dr.
David Robson, MDMA, who is apracticing anatomist in the city
of Edinburgh in Scotland.
And thank you to everybodythat's been in touch and giving
us lovely feedback about thepodcast.
It's just lovely to know thatpeople are enjoying it all over
the world.
So thank you.
Yes, thank you.
Yeah.
(01:25):
So we, at the end of lastmonth's podcast, discussed the
next person that we were goingto be digging deep into in
history of anatomy which is aguy Astley Cooper.
SPEAKER_03 (01:37):
Sir Astley Paxton Cooper was born in Norfolk in
1768 died in London in 1841 andhe was the most eminent surgeon
of his day he was what you wereknown as a surgeon's surgeon so
he was the best of the best It'sa long story, but I'm going to
(02:01):
take out the interesting bitsfor you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
That was the cup of tea coming over, because
obviously it's going to be agood session.
That's a
SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
good session.
In 1817, Astrid Coopersuccessfully performed the first
ligation of the abdominal aorta,which had never been attempted
or done before.
And you've got to remember thiswas in the days before
anaesthetic.
and it was carried out becausethe patient, who was only 35,
had an aneurysm, which is aclot, a dilation of the common
(02:32):
iliac artery leading down intohis leg, and Ashley Cooper
successfully ligated theabdominal aorta, and the person
survived the operation.
In 1820, Ashley Coopersuccessfully removed an infected
sebaceous cyst from the head ofGeorge IV and then a monarch.
(02:57):
And for that, he became abaronet.
In 1828, Ashley Cooper becamewhat is known as a surgeon's
surgeon.
And now this is a position onlygranted by the monarch.
And it's still enforced today.
(03:19):
Monarchs still have a surgeon,surgeon, as well as a king's
honorary surgeon or a king'shonorary physician.
But surgeons, surgeons, you cantrace the history back to the
13th century.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Hang on.
The 13th century?
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
Yeah.
Particularly to the year 1253,when Henry III was the reigning
monarch.
And he gave rise to thisposition.
And in them days, the surgeon'ssurgeons were surgeons, military
surgeons.
And they were the best of thebest.
(03:57):
So that's a bit of history ofthe history of the surgeon's
surgeons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Yeah, but 1253.
1253,
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
and it's gone on ever since.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
So every monarch has had their...
A surgeon's surgeon.
A surgeon's surgeon, right.
SPEAKER_03 (04:09):
Ashley Cooper became a surgeon's surgeon in 1828, as
I just said.
And he was a surgeon's surgeonfor...
George IV, William IV, and QueenVictoria.
Gosh, so he was really...
He really was.
He was an exceptional surgeon.
He was the top of the tree.
(04:30):
So that's a bit of thebackground of Sir Ashley Cooper.
And of course, as was mentionedin a previous podcast, he
authenticated...
a wax skeleton that had beenmade by Joseph Townie, a young
wax modeler.
And he signed a certificate ofthat authenticity in April of
1825.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
So it's fascinating that these episodes of the
podcast, even though we're notplanning this, as it were, they
will all connect up, which givesus a real sort of timeline of
how anatomy has...
There's a
SPEAKER_03 (05:00):
timeline.
There's a reason for that I'mdoing it in this region, in this
position.
You asked me if Anyone else didany type of work like this that
we're doing now?
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
Well, I think a lot of people ask that.
I mean, just last week, my otherhalf, my husband, was in.
He'd had a knee problem forages, and he was thinking, oh,
no, it probably means I'm goingto have to go under the knife.
But he came in, saw you, and yousorted him out.
So it always strikes me that yousave an awful lot of people from
(05:33):
having to go through surgery andcertainly do your best to help
people avoid that.
We always do
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
our best.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
If we
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
can, we will.
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
Well, it was Pat, my wife, who reminded me that I
used to tell her a story.
And it's a story of a gentlemancalled John Grosvenor.
John Grosvenor was born in 1724and died in 1823.
And John Grosvenor, in Oxford,and he was an anatomical
(06:02):
surgeon.
But he was renowned for treatinghis patients only by using his
hands, particularly for stiffjoints, stiff muscles, and he'd
use manipulation and massage,and it didn't matter whether the
bone was broken.
He would reset it, and he wasthe best at it.
(06:22):
He was also a part-time lecturerat Oxford University.
So John Grosvenor did this, andthen after 1823, it all
disappeared.
So in a roundabout way, Pat andI brought it back.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
Hence we only used the hands.
SPEAKER_02 (06:37):
But with an in-depth knowledge of anatomy and
physiology, you must have that.
SPEAKER_03 (06:42):
If not, don't do it, otherwise you'll do more wrong
than good.
You know,
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
it's interesting you say that you only work with your
hands, which is something thatI, because I've known you for
such a long time now, take forgranted.
But we haven't actually saidthat, have we, until this point.
So you don't ever use anyinstrument.
There is no machines.
Nothing, it's all just...
SPEAKER_03 (06:59):
The only instrument I may use is a towel.
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (07:04):
And that's just purely for the knees.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yeah, which is incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (07:07):
Apart from that, there's no machines, no nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
So when Sir Astley Cooper, Baronet, obviously gives
somebody like Joseph Towne therubber stamp, if you like, he's
saying, this guy knows what he'sdoing, that's about the highest
praise in the land.
SPEAKER_03 (07:23):
It is for a modeler, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
And so a monarch then has, so he was the
surgeon's surgeon for threeconsecutive monarchs.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
George IV, William IV, and Queen Victoria.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Which is extraordinary.
UNKNOWN (07:37):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
And he, as you see, was performing these very
invasive operations, I supposeby the nature of the fact they
are operations, they'reinvasive, but without
anaesthetic.
That's right, there was noanaesthetic at all.
And how did he get the knowledgeto sort out these
SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
problems without...
Because he used to dissect thecadaver when he used to get the
chance.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
So that is, that's the missing link.
If you
SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
remember that in one of the previous podcasts, I
mentioned about the famousbroken hair trial in 1829.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Remind us.
Yes,
SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
please.
Birkenhead trial was the trialthat occurred in Edinburgh.
after Burke and Hare werearrested, charged with
unfortunately murdering peopleto get their bodies to pass over
to the anatomists for theiranatomical schools.
Hare turned King's evidence andBurke was hung by the neck until
dead in Surgeon Square and waspublicly dissected.
(08:31):
After that, it was felt that alaw had to be passed to try and
stop the resurrection men or thebody snatchers.
Sir Ashley Cooper was the manthat actually helped to
instigate that.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (08:43):
parliament and said he could get anybody at any time
and dissected no problemwhatsoever so because of that it
was decided that a law would bepassed and it was passed on
august the 1st 1832 when williamiv was the reigning monarch and
if you remember five years laterin 1837 william iv died and his
(09:08):
niece a young girl victoria atthe age of 18 became queen So
you can see how the story is all
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
linked up.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So was it at that point thenthat people, because I know now
people, if they choose to, whenthey die, can leave their body
to medical science.
Is that where that...
SPEAKER_03 (09:28):
All comes from.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
All comes from.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
from the anatomy.
UNKNOWN (09:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
And that's why you have an inspector of anatomy,
and his job is to go around tomedical schools to make sure
that everything is being adheredto by law.
SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
Right.
Gosh.
Now, we've talked about the factthat when you were a
five-year-old boy, you got acopy of Grey's Anatomy and read
it, which still, you know, thestuff of Hollywood, but there we
are, that is the truth.
Who was Grey of Grey's Anatomy?
SPEAKER_03 (10:00):
Henry Grey was a young lad who was born in London
in 1827 and unfortunately diedin 1861, which is interesting
because that's the same yearthat Prince Albert died.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (10:15):
Queen Victoria's, who has been died in 1861.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
So he wrote Grey's Anatomy after Astley Cooper had
performed these operations andthey'd been through all the
anatomical investigations.
SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
That's right, because Henry Grey wasn't born
until 1827 and studied at St.
George's
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Hospital.
Okay, that's what I waswondering.
So he studied anatomy.
He
SPEAKER_03 (10:35):
was a medical student at St.
George's.
And the interesting thing aboutHenry Grey was...
As a young surgeon at the age of25, he was elected a fellow of
the Royal Society.
At 25?
At 25, which is unusual.
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
And he got the triennial prize from the Royal
College of Surgeons on a paperthat he did on the nerves and
connections of the human eyewith comparative illustrations.
And then following that, he wasawarded the Astley Cooper Prize
(11:12):
for an essay on Teutlon, TheUses and Functions of the
Spleen, of which he alsoreceived 300 guineas.
Which was a king's ransom inthose days.
Which was a king's ransom inthose days.
And he decided to write a book.
The sad thing is he was only 34when he died.
And Grey at that time waslooking after his nephew, who
(11:32):
was 10 years of age.
who unfortunately had smallpox.
Smallpox is this extremelydangerous infection.
Killed over 300 million peopleworldwide.
300 million?
Yeah, there was no cure for itat that time.
You'd get a rash, a fever.
(11:52):
Two or three days later, theselittle spots, these pustules
would start to appear on theskin, particularly on the arms,
the hands and on the face.
Unfortunately, that's whatkilled Henry Grey.
Smallpox used to spread allover, and you can actually trace
the history of the smallpoxinfection way back to ancient
(12:17):
Egypt to mummies over 2,500years.
This is in the days then.
It had been found in that, andit found evidence of smallpox.
The pot marks.
Another doctor who was a studentof John Hunter, whom we
(12:39):
mentioned earlier on in one ofthe poems, was a country doctor
called Edward Jenner.
Jenner was born in 1749 and diedin 1823, which was also, if you
remember, the same year thatJohn Grosvenor died, 1823.
The interesting thing was thatJenner had seen, because he
(13:05):
lived on a farm near a farm andthat, and cow maids used to
develop cow pox, which was askin infection, eruptions and
SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
The person that developed cow pox never
developed smallpox.
And Edward Jenner wanted to knowwhy, so he did a lot of
research.
He inoculated a young lad, tookcowpox, made it into a vaccine,
(13:38):
and in 1796 became the world'sfirst vaccine.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
And it was a successful vaccine.
It was
SPEAKER_03 (13:45):
a successful vaccine, yeah.
And it laid the foundations forthe eradication of smallpox.
SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
And presumably everything else,
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
if they showed that.
So Jenna is regarded as thefather of immunology.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Goodness me.
See, as somebody who has beenimmunised since I was a kid and
obviously lived througheverything that everybody does
in their lives, these namesdon't mean anything to me, but
they should be held up surely asthe reason that we're all
walking talking and alive.
SPEAKER_03 (14:15):
Yeah, it was the world's first vaccine.
And Edward Jenner had actuallylaid the foundations for it in
1796.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
And where was he from?
SPEAKER_03 (14:24):
He was from Kent.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Just checking he wasn't another Scot.
No, he wasn't.
Because everybody seems to beScottish.
And he was
SPEAKER_03 (14:34):
a pupil of John Hunter for two years.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Oh, so he was a pupil of a Scot.
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
No, he was a pupil of a Scot, yeah.
And John Hunter died in 1793.
Edward Jenner carried on hisresearch.
But he would write letters toJohn Hunter when he was down in
his little practice there.
And John Henry Rovers here,don't ask why.
Do it.
(15:01):
Just do it.
Just do it.
So he did.
SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
That's always, you know, it's a great sort of
philosophy for life, really,isn't it?
Because if people didn't just doit.
Don't keep asking why.
Just do it.
Give it a try.
If it works, it works.
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
Well, Edward Jenner did.
And
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
he was living, maybe he was living, rudely in
England.
And, you know, obviously theidea of it just stimulated his
mind.
Just stimulated his
SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
mind as to why.
And it was these cow maids whodeveloped cowpox, but never
developed smallpox.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
And even the communication, you know, because
it would have taken so long towrite a letter, wait for a
reply.
All of that would have takensuch a long time.
It just shows the absolutededication and focus of all of
these.
Oh yeah, you had the dedicationand the focus.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:44):
Oh yeah.
So without Edward Jenner, wewouldn't have had the
eradication of smallpox.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
And probably, you know, the idea of immunisation.
As you say, he was the father ofthe whole thing.
He
SPEAKER_03 (15:57):
became known
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
as the father of immunology.
Yeah, immunology.
And the fact that although...
there has been so muchinformation gathered and so many
more advances in technology andall the way that people do
communicate that there is juststill this the oldest and still
the textbook that everybodyimmediately refers to and thinks
about in anatomy
SPEAKER_03 (16:18):
is
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
Grey's and it's
SPEAKER_03 (16:20):
in its I think it's in its 40th edition
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
and you knowing as much as you know about are there
parts that need to be updatedthe
SPEAKER_03 (16:32):
new editions of Grey's Graze has x-rays in and
scans in and it has a lot ofserology, embryology, cytology.
It's a vast book.
The first edition of Graze waspurely surgically applied
anatomy.
The first edition is stillconsidered to be the best.
He was in the process of doing asecond edition.
(16:56):
unfortunately lost his life inthe second edition he was going
to dedicate that to BenjaminBrodie who later became Sir
Benjamin Brodie who was Grey'smentor in one respect and did a
lot to help Grey Benjamin BrodieBenjamin Brodie is known in
anatomy which we'll cover insome previous next podcasts and
(17:16):
that for a very tiny littleligament attached to the upper
end of the humerus
SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
right
SPEAKER_03 (17:22):
called the transverse humeral ligament or
the ligament of Brodie they areor O-D-I-E.
Okay.
Well, that's an Edinburgh name,Brodie.
SPEAKER_01 (17:31):
That's a name from this area.
He
SPEAKER_03 (17:35):
was an expert on knees, Brodie was.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Was he?
Yeah.
So they're all connected.
I don't mean
SPEAKER_03 (17:42):
bones.
No, no.
If you look at it and you studyit and you see who was studying
with who and where they studiedit, it's interesting to see how
they're all interconnected inone form or another.
SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
I mean, I know that you, over a long period of time,
I think it was a number ofyears, wrote and have written,
and you drew the diagrams aswell of the anatomy, you know,
so you have got the Robson'sGuide to Anatomy, haven't you?
SPEAKER_03 (18:11):
Yeah, it's a book that I did when my partner and I
lived in Tenerife.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
It's kind of an act of, you know, you're passing
your knowledge on, and it'sfascinating, even as somebody,
as a layman like myself, to seethose drawings and to, you know,
equate that to the to you, tome, to whoever, is absolutely
fascinating.
And if somebody wants to get ahold of the books, can they?
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Yeah, it's on
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
Amazon.
It's on Amazon?
SPEAKER_03 (18:35):
Yeah, they can download it.
It's an electronic book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Right, okay, great.
Well, that's really importantbecause I think a lot of people
are responding to what you'retalking about and to be able to
see that.
It's the
SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
oldest, newest anatomy book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
The oldest, newest anatomy book.
Yeah, because it's
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
all
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
old.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:51):
In other words, it's the way it's written.
Instead of making one bigtextbook, Pat said, Chris, we're
traveling on a train.
When you're on a train, you'llalways see people looking at
magazines.
And Pat said, instead of doing abig book, why don't you do it in
parts?
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
That's great.
SPEAKER_03 (19:10):
Like a magazine.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
It's a marketing genius.
No, but it's true.
It's such a good idea.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (19:14):
it is.
That's what we did.
So Robson's approach to anatomyis actually seven books.
But it means if you're onlyinterested in one particular
area, then you just buy that
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
one particular part.
SPEAKER_03 (19:25):
The first one is the skeleton, and then it's the
back, and then it's the upperlimb, and then it's the thorax,
until you end up with the leg.
But each book finishes in orderfor the next book to start.
So after the first book, whichis the human skeleton, the next
book is the back, which isunusual.
And the reason I did it that waywas because without a back, we
(19:47):
haven't got a body.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (19:50):
Basically.
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
Yeah.
I suppose that's true.
I hadn't really thought aboutthat.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
Because your head sits on the top, your legs are
attached to the bottom.
And anteriorly, you've got yourviscera and your heart.
Laterally, you have your limbs.
UNKNOWN (20:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:02):
But without the back, you haven't got anything.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
You can get, yeah.
Well, the head, clearly, thebrain, and the back.
That's it.
And then you do it.
SPEAKER_03 (20:09):
So we did it in seven parts.
If you put the whole booktogether, it's 1,600 pages.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Yeah, that's a big read on a one...
SPEAKER_03 (20:19):
But that's the shortened version.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
That's 1,600 pages.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:23):
I could have made it a lot bigger, but I didn't.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
That says you
SPEAKER_03 (20:27):
don't want to make it too big.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
But I
SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
enjoyed doing it.
I used to do it every Sunday.
Every Sunday for about eighthours, sitting at a breakfast
table like this, with pencilsand paper, and that was it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:40):
Because I know over your career you have declared
quite a few different parts ofthe body that nobody else has
declared before, which isfascinating.
And are those findings withinthe book...
Or sometimes I suppose theywould be, it happens all the
time, doesn't
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
it?
It happens all the time.
You can never tell.
You can dissect a body and youthink that is the standard plan.
Unfortunately, nature obviouslysays, no, no, that's too easy.
We'll make it a bit morecomplicated.
So it throws some, again, it'llthrow an extra muscle in or it
might throw an extra digit in.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Yeah.
Handy if you're a piano player.
SPEAKER_03 (21:19):
Exactly, or an extra bone in the spine or an extra
rib.
or a nerve may be going in thewrong place, or an artery may
take an unusual course.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
So there's really not, I mean, there is a
standard, but...
There's a standard, the plan isthere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
But it's not.
But it's diverse, you know, asthe textbook says.
That's why, really, the body,the cadaver, is your textbook.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Yeah.
And that's what doesn't happennow, isn't it?
The
SPEAKER_03 (21:45):
textbook is supplementary reading.
It's the body because if youdissect the body, you get a true
understanding of therelationship of one structure to
the other.
SPEAKER_02 (21:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:54):
And there's nothing to beat that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
You can have all your computer models and you can
have all your plastinatedmodels, but to sit and dissect a
cadaver and get the end result,it's a fascinating journey.
It's like...
It's a journey of you.
It's a story of you.
It's a story of the human body.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Yeah, and I think that's what I find absolutely
fascinating that, you know, youresearch all the time.
You're up at five in themorning.
You're just, your subject youlove and you can never stop
learning, which is...
It's a hobby.
It's a hobby, but it's, but thedepth of knowledge that you
have, that's the thing.
It's, you know, you...
I think it's because if you're
SPEAKER_03 (22:37):
interested in it, you remember it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (22:41):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
But it's still, you know, the door knocks and
somebody comes in from Australiaor, you know, it's the other
thing that fascinates me aboutthis is people find their way
here with word of mouth.
You know, you don't tell
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
people.
It's all word of mouth.
I have never advertised
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
it.
Which is extraordinarybecause...
It's all
SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
just been done word of mouth.
It started with Pat's clinic.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:02):
And everybody used to get recommended to go and see
Pat.
SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
But it is amazing, though, because that's
worldwide.
Pat
SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
has looked after top celebrities.
I can't give any names, butshe's looked after top
celebrities.
And had a tremendous reputation.
And then Pat and I got togetherand I said, no, no, you can't do
it without a knife or an eel.
And Pat said, no, you can.
And she did a shoulder.
And then she said, but with yourin-depth knowledge of anatomy,
you should be able to do it aswell.
(23:28):
So we did.
Develop your own techniques.
Yeah, all the techniques thatPat and I use are unique to us.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:37):
And you can't pass them on.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Such a shame! I want everybody to know! You know?
You
SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
can't pass the techniques on because it's
always having the knowledge
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
of
SPEAKER_03 (23:47):
the anatomy and the physiology.
It's have you got it in thefeeling of your hands.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's an intangiblething.
It's an intangible thing,
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
yeah.
It's the feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Which for an anatomist is interesting because
anatomy is so, you know,practical in a way.
Anatomy is
SPEAKER_03 (24:02):
supposed to be a precise subject.
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:05):
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
But you're mixing that then with, yeah,
absolutely, with the feeling.
The feeling.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:11):
Yeah, because you're feeling with your fingers.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
But what happens is I...
She just
SPEAKER_03 (24:15):
can't do that.
Yeah.
You know, you could come in withyour...
my arm, my elbow, whatever.
And if you put a machine on it,the machine's not going to be
able to detect
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
or
SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
find out.
SPEAKER_01 (24:27):
I mean, sometimes I walk in and you go, you're out.
And I go, what?
You go, you're out.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
because Pat and I have done the job for that long.
You can see it.
As
SPEAKER_01 (24:36):
soon as somebody walks in.
It's
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
like sometimes on the television, you'll see
somebody on the television.
I'll say to Pat, oh, she's gotan extra part.
I say, give over.
I say, but she's there.
You can't miss it.
You can see it.
You can't help it because it's ahobby.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:49):
It's like, if you think about it, it's like
somebody who's dedicated togolf.
What do they live for?
Golf, hitting this tiny littlewhite ball with 360 pimples on
it and hitting it.
Only you would know there was360 pimples on it.
Or a tennis player thatdedicated to live for it.
Well, it's just that what we do,it's not that we live for it,
(25:12):
it's just that it's a hobby, butit's a fascinating hobby because
it takes you around the world.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Well, the other thing is, I know that you've
been sitting somewhere justquietly having a sandwich and
Pat's spotted somebody that's,you know, maybe got something
out of line or whatever andyou've gone up and said, my
husband, you know, and theystart a conversation and you end
up fixing them there and then.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Yeah, if we can.
Don't do that so much now.
SPEAKER_01 (25:34):
No.
But they're great stories.
SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Yeah, they're great stories but they're all true.
Yeah.
But this is what makes it allinteresting and if you can, but
if you can get the anatomy andthe physiology across and the
importance of it So that youlook at, like I say to students,
just look at your hands.
You can learn a lot just bylooking at the hand.
(25:59):
Or if you're studying the arm orthe limb or the chest, just
stand in front of a mirror andlook at the body.
It's surprising how much you canactually see and how much you
can actually learn just bylooking in the mirror.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
You have to have respect for the person.
You have to, because if youremember, when people come to
us, we're not using machines.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
There's so much
SPEAKER_03 (26:24):
going on.
And nowadays, you have to be socareful.
Of course.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
But you're not, you never, I mean, it has to be a
hands-on therapy.
SPEAKER_03 (26:34):
It has to be hands-on.
It is, it's hands-on becausewe're using our hands, we're not
using any machines.
But today, unfortunately, youhave to be so careful.
So if a lady comes in that'snever been to us before, Pat's
there, Pat's the chaperone.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Yeah.
Well, you have to protectyourself.
You have to protect yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (26:50):
So we do.
SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
But we explain to people when they come in that I
have to do this or I have to dothat.
Do you mind if I move this or ifI do that?
UNKNOWN (26:58):
They don't mind.
SPEAKER_03 (26:59):
Yeah, they don't mind.
They just want you to try andhelp them out.
Of course, yeah.
But you still have to explain.
Yeah.
It's like if a lady has to takeher top off, we'll obviously
have a vest on underneath.
Yeah, yeah.
We put a towel under.
Yeah.
You have to protect theirmodesty.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
It's changed days, isn't it?
It's changed days nowadays.
Although it's protected bothparties in some ways, you know.
you have to yeah absolutely
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
we're just so careful yeah it's a full hand on
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
and speaking of you know everything that we've just
discussed there it all comesdown to well not all of it
obviously but the bones theskeleton I know we're going to
go into that in the next podcastbut give us a brief kind of
overview of what we'll betalking about next time if we're
talking about the skeletonbecause to me the skeleton's
like you know
SPEAKER_03 (27:43):
them bones them
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
bones them dry bones you know so
SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
Yeah, we'll go into the skeleton and discuss about
the human skeleton.
All 206 bones in the humanskeleton.
That's the basic plan.
206 bones.
308 in a newborn baby.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
What?
Hang on a minute, hang on aminute, hang on a minute.
My head's just burst there.
You just said 206 bones in ahuman skeleton.
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
308 bones.
as usual number and a newbornbaby.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
And 102 bones
SPEAKER_03 (28:23):
disappear.
But they don't disappear becausethey fuse to the parent bones.
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
Goodness me.
Am I looking surprised?
The bones are separate, you see?
SPEAKER_03 (28:35):
Like the hip bone, the iliac bone, that develops in
three parts.
It's not a bone with one bigbone.
It's three bones that actuallyfuse in the acetabulum, the
joint cavity.
The femur, the greatertrochanter, lesser trochanter,
they join together.
So by the time all that's doneand all the bones are totally
(28:57):
fused by the age of 25.
It
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
takes up to 25, does it?
For boys and girls?
SPEAKER_03 (29:05):
And the first bone to develop in the skeleton is
the clavicle, or the collarbone,the clivus collarbone.
Flip it on its side and itrepresents a Roman key.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Hence the word.
SPEAKER_03 (29:19):
Yeah, clavicle, because it's the most important
bone.
Because during parturition, whena baby's been born, it's the
clavicle that you have to takehold of to bring the baby out.
SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (29:32):
So it's the first point of development.
The centre of ossification, thisis the development periods of
time for bones.
The first centre for that willappear between the fifth and
sixth week of interuterine life.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Goodness me!
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
That's right.
If anything's going to go wrong,it'll go wrong in the first
eight weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
Really?
Gosh, yeah.
Gosh, that's so surprising.
I mean, I knew that it took, youknow, like brains, you know,
took longer to develop,especially boys.
I think brains take longer tojoin back up.
Yeah, they can take up to
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
21, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
But I had no idea that the skeleton was, took 25?
It would be totally, it would betotally fused.
I mean, obviously
SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
you're growing.
Yeah, you're growing, you see.
Yeah.
So by the time you're 25, everybone will have been totally
fused together in its correctposition.
So, right, if you have a longbone, you'll have a head and
you'll have the shaft.
The head's the epiphysis, theshaft is the diaphysis.
And then you'll have the groinend.
(30:31):
and the groin end is separate,so it has to join.
So that's when you look at it,you'll see on an x-ray, you'll
see a ridge, and that ridge isthe epiphyseal line and plate
where the discline of the bone,which is the groin end of a
bone, actually joins with theshaft or the diaphysis.
(30:51):
So that's why we have 308 whenwe're born, but by the time
we're all fused together, whenwe're grown up, we'll have 206.
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
Unless
SPEAKER_03 (30:58):
nature decides to throw a span in the works and
say, well, we'll give you anextra vertebra, or we'll give
you an extra rib.
SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
Yes, what about that?
But you know, like the very tallpeople or very small people, or
you know, people that areanomalies in terms of whatever
the norm is.
SPEAKER_03 (31:12):
They can still have the normal arrangements.
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
Right, but just in a larger or elongated kind of way.
If
SPEAKER_03 (31:18):
you think of it this way, if you look at the neck of
a human skeleton, it consists ofseven cervical vertebrae.
SPEAKER_02 (31:25):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (31:27):
You look at the neck of a giraffe, it has seven
cervical vertebrae.
SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Yet again, you've just blown my mind.
I
SPEAKER_03 (31:35):
thought a giraffe would have about 120.
No, it has seven.
Exactly the same, except they'rebigger.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
I did
SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
work that
SPEAKER_03 (31:43):
big.
They're
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
bigger, aren't they?
But that's extraordinary.
Really.
SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
Yeah.
And if...
There's one, the giraffe.
We haven't done this yet, butanyway, it makes it interesting
because we're talking about thegiraffe.
The recurrent laryngeal nerve ina human in the neck supplies the
larynx, the voice box.
In the giraffe, the recurrentlaryngeal nerve is over a metre
(32:10):
long.
This is comparative anatomy.
And that's why I bring it in, tomake it interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:20):
Because you're making the story interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
But yes, we're
SPEAKER_03 (32:23):
going back to the skull.
We'll cover all of the
SPEAKER_01 (32:25):
skulls.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I'm justlike, I mean, I'm an animal
fanatic, you know, but I'm juststunned that I hadn't really
thought about that in terms of,I just assumed that, you know.
So is that because in, you know,everybody's got a different
belief system, but we all comefrom the same root and we all go
in sort of different directions,if you like.
You know, we've got us as thehumans and then you've got the
(32:46):
giraffes Human history
SPEAKER_03 (32:47):
is a fascinating topic.
Yeah.
It really is, because you cantrace it back.
One of the oldest skeletons everfound was in 1974.
SPEAKER_02 (32:59):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (33:00):
In the Rift Valley in Ethiopia.
And the paleontologist was a guycalled Donald Johanson.
And it was the last day of thedig, because you only get a...
a visa to do the digs, a permit,sorry, a permit for maybe a
month, two months, or threemonths.
(33:22):
And it was the last one, and hewas driving back through the
desert, and in the headlights,he saw a reflection, something
sticking up from the sand.
And he stopped and he went andhad a look at it.
And it was a bone.
SPEAKER_01 (33:39):
Good eyesight.
SPEAKER_03 (33:42):
So he dug it, dug it all up, got the skeleton, When
he got back to base camp withthe Bowmans, they had to go to
the next state to get the restof them.
They were playing Lucy in theSky with Diamonds, the Beatles
song.
(34:03):
So he called the skeleton Lucy.
And Lucy, the skeleton of Lucy,and it took them 20 years to
find her skull.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
Oh my goodness.
Her
SPEAKER_03 (34:11):
skull wasn't with her.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
She was
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
with her family, yeah, Lucy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
So where was the skull?
SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
It was in a different part.
SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
Good heavens.
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
But it took 20 years to find
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Australia, Pythagoras, Africanus is what it
was really named.
But it took them 20 years tofind the skull.
And she was dated to be 3.4million years old.
The interesting thing aboutLucy's skeleton was that it
actually, originally, we used togo around in all fours.
And we were arboreal, which...
(34:44):
or boy remains that wereswimming through the trees.
But Lucy's skeleton actuallyshowed you the transposition of
going around on all fours tobecoming bipedal, walking on two
legs.
SPEAKER_00 (34:57):
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03 (34:58):
Because of the shape of the pelvis.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Oh, gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (35:01):
And the femurs.
3.4
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
million years.
Then
SPEAKER_03 (35:05):
about five, six years ago, another skeleton was
found, and that was dated to besix million years old.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Gosh, makes Lucy look like a young thing.
SPEAKER_03 (35:17):
Yeah, but Lucy's the most famous one.
SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
And what about this one, the more recent finding
then, that was six million yearsold?
What did that show?
Were we still in the trees atthat point?
We
SPEAKER_03 (35:26):
were
SPEAKER_01 (35:27):
still in the trees.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (35:28):
It's Lucy that was the one that actually showed you
this transmission.
SPEAKER_01 (35:31):
The
SPEAKER_03 (35:31):
change.
The change from all fours tobipedal.
And then, we've been back here17 years now,
SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
haven't we?
SPEAKER_03 (35:42):
So it's got to be about 10 years ago.
In Indonesia, in the islands ofIndonesia, on one of the
islands, they found skeletons.
And in the film, Lord of theRings, there's people in there
(36:02):
called the Hobbits.
On this remote Indonesianisland, they found the skeletons
of little people and they calledthem the Hobbits.
Really?
These are small skeletons, yeah.
And
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
when were they found?
Was it quite recently?
SPEAKER_03 (36:17):
That's got to be about 10 years ago, 10, 12 years
ago, like that, yeah.
And they were hobbits.
And they've
SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
called
SPEAKER_03 (36:22):
them hobbits?
They were called the hobbits.
They were?
Uh-huh.
They were little skeletons.
They were called hobbits.
Different to pygmies that youfind in Africa and in the Amazon
basin.
Because pygmies are just smallpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (36:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:39):
Yeah, and...
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
So did they name them the Hobbits?
SPEAKER_03 (36:43):
Yeah, that was the scientific name that they were
given, they were called theHobbits.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
Gosh, well the thing is...
On this
SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
island, this island was all vegetation.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
Gosh, so they were
SPEAKER_03 (36:53):
extinct?
They were extinct,
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
yeah.
And do they know when theybecame extinct?
SPEAKER_03 (36:57):
No.
UNKNOWN (36:58):
Gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (36:59):
Not that I know of to know.
So that's why the human skeletonin itself is a fascinating
story.
It's a vast story.
UNKNOWN (37:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Well, that's a great starting point, I think, for us
next time, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
Because basically, if you think of the human fem,
it's just a series of bonessupplemented by pieces of
cartilages.
So that cartilaginous bony fembecomes the human skeleton.
And the skeleton is...
(37:40):
So the skeleton in the animalworld, the skeleton is either,
the deeper one is theendoskeleton, and the outer one
is the exoskeleton.
So if you think of a lobster, ofa snail, that skeleton is the
exoskeleton.
And the only remnants of theexoskeleton and the human
(38:01):
skeleton are our nails.
SPEAKER_02 (38:04):
And
SPEAKER_03 (38:05):
the enamel of the teeth, which is the hardest
mineral in the body, is enamel.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
So
SPEAKER_03 (38:10):
the human skeleton is the deeper layer, which is
the endoskeleton.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
You see, the endo of the podcast, we're leaving it
with the endo skeleton, but wewill start the next time.
David, thank you so much.
And I have to say, as we'resitting here, we have got, there
is a skeleton here, isn't there?
In this, I mean, I can see amodel skeleton behind you there.
SPEAKER_03 (38:34):
The little one over there, that's the one I put
together for children, that'scalled Billy Bones.
Billy Bones.
The one in the bedroom, that'san adult one, that's called
Fred.
UNKNOWN (38:44):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
Well, Fred and Billy Bones will be the stars of the
show next time.
And the
SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
real Bones, I keep sipping.
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Thank you, David.
Thank you so much.
Dr David...
And Pat, who's just produced abox of chocolates, so I think
we'll have a break.
But another fascinatingconversation.
So I'll go into the
SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
skeleton in more detail next time.
And I'll bring a bit of historyin as well.
SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
And if you click on to the show notes, you'll get
all the details.
And you can drop Dr.
David a note or you can drop anote on the podcast homepage if
there's anything in the areayou'd specifically like to hear
David talking about or anyquestions that you have.
And thanks for listening.
Until next time.
Bye.
Bye.
You've been listening to To theReal Anatomist podcast with Dr.
(39:27):
David Robson, MDMA and myself,Alison Craig.
If you've enjoyed the show,please subscribe and share.
Until next time.
Bye.
You're listening to The Real Anatomist podcast with
myself, Alison Craig, and Dr.
David Robson, MD, MA, who is TheReal Anatomist.
If you like the podcast, pleasesubscribe and share.
Thanks.
Welcome along to episode four ofThe Real Anatomist.
(00:22):
And this month, we are going tobe talking about Sir Astley
Cooper, another incrediblyinteresting historic character
within the world of anatomy.
Edward Jenner, a doctor wholived in the centre of England
and changed part of the medicalworld, which has affected us
(00:43):
all.
And we touch on so many othertopics within the conversation
because we always just sit downand have a good chat over a cup
of tea.
And I have to say, I apologisefor the number of times I say
extraordinary, but it is.
So here we are.
Enjoy.
Well, welcome along to The RealAnatomist.
(01:04):
My name's Alison Craig and I'min conversation with Dr.
David Robson, MDMA, who is apracticing anatomist in the city
of Edinburgh in Scotland.
And thank you to everybodythat's been in touch and giving
us lovely feedback about thepodcast.
It's just lovely to know thatpeople are enjoying it all over
the world.
So thank you.
Yes, thank you.
Yeah.
(01:25):
So we, at the end of lastmonth's podcast, discussed the
next person that we were goingto be digging deep into in
history of anatomy which is aguy Astley Cooper.
SPEAKER_03 (01:37):
Sir Astley Paxton Cooper was born in Norfolk in
1768 died in London in 1841 andhe was the most eminent surgeon
of his day he was what you wereknown as a surgeon's surgeon so
he was the best of the best It'sa long story, but I'm going to
(02:01):
take out the interesting bitsfor you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
That was the cup of tea coming over, because
obviously it's going to be agood session.
That's a
SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
good session.
In 1817, Astrid Coopersuccessfully performed the first
ligation of the abdominal aorta,which had never been attempted
or done before.
And you've got to remember thiswas in the days before
anaesthetic.
and it was carried out becausethe patient, who was only 35,
had an aneurysm, which is aclot, a dilation of the common
(02:32):
iliac artery leading down intohis leg, and Ashley Cooper
successfully ligated theabdominal aorta, and the person
survived the operation.
In 1820, Ashley Coopersuccessfully removed an infected
sebaceous cyst from the head ofGeorge IV and then a monarch.
(02:57):
And for that, he became abaronet.
In 1828, Ashley Cooper becamewhat is known as a surgeon's
surgeon.
And now this is a position onlygranted by the monarch.
And it's still enforced today.
(03:19):
Monarchs still have a surgeon,surgeon, as well as a king's
honorary surgeon or a king'shonorary physician.
But surgeons, surgeons, you cantrace the history back to the
13th century.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Hang on.
The 13th century?
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
Yeah.
Particularly to the year 1253,when Henry III was the reigning
monarch.
And he gave rise to thisposition.
And in them days, the surgeon'ssurgeons were surgeons, military
surgeons.
And they were the best of thebest.
(03:57):
So that's a bit of history ofthe history of the surgeon's
surgeons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Yeah, but 1253.
1253,
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
and it's gone on ever since.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
So every monarch has had their...
A surgeon's surgeon.
A surgeon's surgeon, right.
SPEAKER_03 (04:09):
Ashley Cooper became a surgeon's surgeon in 1828, as
I just said.
And he was a surgeon's surgeonfor...
George IV, William IV, and QueenVictoria.
Gosh, so he was really...
He really was.
He was an exceptional surgeon.
He was the top of the tree.
(04:30):
So that's a bit of thebackground of Sir Ashley Cooper.
And of course, as was mentionedin a previous podcast, he
authenticated...
a wax skeleton that had beenmade by Joseph Townie, a young
wax modeler.
And he signed a certificate ofthat authenticity in April of
1825.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
So it's fascinating that these episodes of the
podcast, even though we're notplanning this, as it were, they
will all connect up, which givesus a real sort of timeline of
how anatomy has...
There's a
SPEAKER_03 (05:00):
timeline.
There's a reason for that I'mdoing it in this region, in this
position.
You asked me if Anyone else didany type of work like this that
we're doing now?
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
Well, I think a lot of people ask that.
I mean, just last week, my otherhalf, my husband, was in.
He'd had a knee problem forages, and he was thinking, oh,
no, it probably means I'm goingto have to go under the knife.
But he came in, saw you, and yousorted him out.
So it always strikes me that yousave an awful lot of people from
(05:33):
having to go through surgery andcertainly do your best to help
people avoid that.
We always do
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
our best.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
If we
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
can, we will.
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
Well, it was Pat, my wife, who reminded me that I
used to tell her a story.
And it's a story of a gentlemancalled John Grosvenor.
John Grosvenor was born in 1724and died in 1823.
And John Grosvenor, in Oxford,and he was an anatomical
(06:02):
surgeon.
But he was renowned for treatinghis patients only by using his
hands, particularly for stiffjoints, stiff muscles, and he'd
use manipulation and massage,and it didn't matter whether the
bone was broken.
He would reset it, and he wasthe best at it.
(06:22):
He was also a part-time lecturerat Oxford University.
So John Grosvenor did this, andthen after 1823, it all
disappeared.
So in a roundabout way, Pat andI brought it back.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
Hence we only used the hands.
SPEAKER_02 (06:37):
But with an in-depth knowledge of anatomy and
physiology, you must have that.
SPEAKER_03 (06:42):
If not, don't do it, otherwise you'll do more wrong
than good.
You know,
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
it's interesting you say that you only work with your
hands, which is something thatI, because I've known you for
such a long time now, take forgranted.
But we haven't actually saidthat, have we, until this point.
So you don't ever use anyinstrument.
There is no machines.
Nothing, it's all just...
SPEAKER_03 (06:59):
The only instrument I may use is a towel.
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (07:04):
And that's just purely for the knees.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yeah, which is incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (07:07):
Apart from that, there's no machines, no nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
So when Sir Astley Cooper, Baronet, obviously gives
somebody like Joseph Towne therubber stamp, if you like, he's
saying, this guy knows what he'sdoing, that's about the highest
praise in the land.
SPEAKER_03 (07:23):
It is for a modeler, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
And so a monarch then has, so he was the
surgeon's surgeon for threeconsecutive monarchs.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
George IV, William IV, and Queen Victoria.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Which is extraordinary.
UNKNOWN (07:37):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
And he, as you see, was performing these very
invasive operations, I supposeby the nature of the fact they
are operations, they'reinvasive, but without
anaesthetic.
That's right, there was noanaesthetic at all.
And how did he get the knowledgeto sort out these
SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
problems without...
Because he used to dissect thecadaver when he used to get the
chance.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
So that is, that's the missing link.
If you
SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
remember that in one of the previous podcasts, I
mentioned about the famousbroken hair trial in 1829.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Remind us.
Yes,
SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
please.
Birkenhead trial was the trialthat occurred in Edinburgh.
after Burke and Hare werearrested, charged with
unfortunately murdering peopleto get their bodies to pass over
to the anatomists for theiranatomical schools.
Hare turned King's evidence andBurke was hung by the neck until
dead in Surgeon Square and waspublicly dissected.
(08:31):
After that, it was felt that alaw had to be passed to try and
stop the resurrection men or thebody snatchers.
Sir Ashley Cooper was the manthat actually helped to
instigate that.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (08:43):
parliament and said he could get anybody at any time
and dissected no problemwhatsoever so because of that it
was decided that a law would bepassed and it was passed on
august the 1st 1832 when williamiv was the reigning monarch and
if you remember five years laterin 1837 william iv died and his
(09:08):
niece a young girl victoria atthe age of 18 became queen So
you can see how the story is all
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
linked up.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So was it at that point thenthat people, because I know now
people, if they choose to, whenthey die, can leave their body
to medical science.
Is that where that...
SPEAKER_03 (09:28):
All comes from.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
All comes from.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
from the anatomy.
UNKNOWN (09:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
And that's why you have an inspector of anatomy,
and his job is to go around tomedical schools to make sure
that everything is being adheredto by law.
SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
Right.
Gosh.
Now, we've talked about the factthat when you were a
five-year-old boy, you got acopy of Grey's Anatomy and read
it, which still, you know, thestuff of Hollywood, but there we
are, that is the truth.
Who was Grey of Grey's Anatomy?
SPEAKER_03 (10:00):
Henry Grey was a young lad who was born in London
in 1827 and unfortunately diedin 1861, which is interesting
because that's the same yearthat Prince Albert died.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (10:15):
Queen Victoria's, who has been died in 1861.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
So he wrote Grey's Anatomy after Astley Cooper had
performed these operations andthey'd been through all the
anatomical investigations.
SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
That's right, because Henry Grey wasn't born
until 1827 and studied at St.
George's
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Hospital.
Okay, that's what I waswondering.
So he studied anatomy.
He
SPEAKER_03 (10:35):
was a medical student at St.
George's.
And the interesting thing aboutHenry Grey was...
As a young surgeon at the age of25, he was elected a fellow of
the Royal Society.
At 25?
At 25, which is unusual.
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
And he got the triennial prize from the Royal
College of Surgeons on a paperthat he did on the nerves and
connections of the human eyewith comparative illustrations.
And then following that, he wasawarded the Astley Cooper Prize
(11:12):
for an essay on Teutlon, TheUses and Functions of the
Spleen, of which he alsoreceived 300 guineas.
Which was a king's ransom inthose days.
Which was a king's ransom inthose days.
And he decided to write a book.
The sad thing is he was only 34when he died.
And Grey at that time waslooking after his nephew, who
(11:32):
was 10 years of age.
who unfortunately had smallpox.
Smallpox is this extremelydangerous infection.
Killed over 300 million peopleworldwide.
300 million?
Yeah, there was no cure for itat that time.
You'd get a rash, a fever.
(11:52):
Two or three days later, theselittle spots, these pustules
would start to appear on theskin, particularly on the arms,
the hands and on the face.
Unfortunately, that's whatkilled Henry Grey.
Smallpox used to spread allover, and you can actually trace
the history of the smallpoxinfection way back to ancient
(12:17):
Egypt to mummies over 2,500years.
This is in the days then.
It had been found in that, andit found evidence of smallpox.
The pot marks.
Another doctor who was a studentof John Hunter, whom we
(12:39):
mentioned earlier on in one ofthe poems, was a country doctor
called Edward Jenner.
Jenner was born in 1749 and diedin 1823, which was also, if you
remember, the same year thatJohn Grosvenor died, 1823.
The interesting thing was thatJenner had seen, because he
(13:05):
lived on a farm near a farm andthat, and cow maids used to
develop cow pox, which was askin infection, eruptions and
SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
The person that developed cow pox never
developed smallpox.
And Edward Jenner wanted to knowwhy, so he did a lot of
research.
He inoculated a young lad, tookcowpox, made it into a vaccine,
(13:38):
and in 1796 became the world'sfirst vaccine.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
And it was a successful vaccine.
It was
SPEAKER_03 (13:45):
a successful vaccine, yeah.
And it laid the foundations forthe eradication of smallpox.
SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
And presumably everything else,
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
if they showed that.
So Jenna is regarded as thefather of immunology.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Goodness me.
See, as somebody who has beenimmunised since I was a kid and
obviously lived througheverything that everybody does
in their lives, these namesdon't mean anything to me, but
they should be held up surely asthe reason that we're all
walking talking and alive.
SPEAKER_03 (14:15):
Yeah, it was the world's first vaccine.
And Edward Jenner had actuallylaid the foundations for it in
1796.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
And where was he from?
SPEAKER_03 (14:24):
He was from Kent.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Just checking he wasn't another Scot.
No, he wasn't.
Because everybody seems to beScottish.
And he was
SPEAKER_03 (14:34):
a pupil of John Hunter for two years.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Oh, so he was a pupil of a Scot.
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
No, he was a pupil of a Scot, yeah.
And John Hunter died in 1793.
Edward Jenner carried on hisresearch.
But he would write letters toJohn Hunter when he was down in
his little practice there.
And John Henry Rovers here,don't ask why.
Do it.
(15:01):
Just do it.
Just do it.
So he did.
SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
That's always, you know, it's a great sort of
philosophy for life, really,isn't it?
Because if people didn't just doit.
Don't keep asking why.
Just do it.
Give it a try.
If it works, it works.
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
Well, Edward Jenner did.
And
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
he was living, maybe he was living, rudely in
England.
And, you know, obviously theidea of it just stimulated his
mind.
Just stimulated his
SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
mind as to why.
And it was these cow maids whodeveloped cowpox, but never
developed smallpox.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
And even the communication, you know, because
it would have taken so long towrite a letter, wait for a
reply.
All of that would have takensuch a long time.
It just shows the absolutededication and focus of all of
these.
Oh yeah, you had the dedicationand the focus.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:44):
Oh yeah.
So without Edward Jenner, wewouldn't have had the
eradication of smallpox.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
And probably, you know, the idea of immunisation.
As you say, he was the father ofthe whole thing.
He
SPEAKER_03 (15:57):
became known
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
as the father of immunology.
Yeah, immunology.
And the fact that although...
there has been so muchinformation gathered and so many
more advances in technology andall the way that people do
communicate that there is juststill this the oldest and still
the textbook that everybodyimmediately refers to and thinks
about in anatomy
SPEAKER_03 (16:18):
is
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
Grey's and it's
SPEAKER_03 (16:20):
in its I think it's in its 40th edition
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
and you knowing as much as you know about are there
parts that need to be updatedthe
SPEAKER_03 (16:32):
new editions of Grey's Graze has x-rays in and
scans in and it has a lot ofserology, embryology, cytology.
It's a vast book.
The first edition of Graze waspurely surgically applied
anatomy.
The first edition is stillconsidered to be the best.
He was in the process of doing asecond edition.
(16:56):
unfortunately lost his life inthe second edition he was going
to dedicate that to BenjaminBrodie who later became Sir
Benjamin Brodie who was Grey'smentor in one respect and did a
lot to help Grey Benjamin BrodieBenjamin Brodie is known in
anatomy which we'll cover insome previous next podcasts and
(17:16):
that for a very tiny littleligament attached to the upper
end of the humerus
SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
right
SPEAKER_03 (17:22):
called the transverse humeral ligament or
the ligament of Brodie they areor O-D-I-E.
Okay.
Well, that's an Edinburgh name,Brodie.
SPEAKER_01 (17:31):
That's a name from this area.
He
SPEAKER_03 (17:35):
was an expert on knees, Brodie was.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Was he?
Yeah.
So they're all connected.
I don't mean
SPEAKER_03 (17:42):
bones.
No, no.
If you look at it and you studyit and you see who was studying
with who and where they studiedit, it's interesting to see how
they're all interconnected inone form or another.
SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
I mean, I know that you, over a long period of time,
I think it was a number ofyears, wrote and have written,
and you drew the diagrams aswell of the anatomy, you know,
so you have got the Robson'sGuide to Anatomy, haven't you?
SPEAKER_03 (18:11):
Yeah, it's a book that I did when my partner and I
lived in Tenerife.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
It's kind of an act of, you know, you're passing
your knowledge on, and it'sfascinating, even as somebody,
as a layman like myself, to seethose drawings and to, you know,
equate that to the to you, tome, to whoever, is absolutely
fascinating.
And if somebody wants to get ahold of the books, can they?
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Yeah, it's on
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
Amazon.
It's on Amazon?
SPEAKER_03 (18:35):
Yeah, they can download it.
It's an electronic book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Right, okay, great.
Well, that's really importantbecause I think a lot of people
are responding to what you'retalking about and to be able to
see that.
It's the
SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
oldest, newest anatomy book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
The oldest, newest anatomy book.
Yeah, because it's
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
all
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
old.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:51):
In other words, it's the way it's written.
Instead of making one bigtextbook, Pat said, Chris, we're
traveling on a train.
When you're on a train, you'llalways see people looking at
magazines.
And Pat said, instead of doing abig book, why don't you do it in
parts?
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
That's great.
SPEAKER_03 (19:10):
Like a magazine.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
It's a marketing genius.
No, but it's true.
It's such a good idea.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (19:14):
it is.
That's what we did.
So Robson's approach to anatomyis actually seven books.
But it means if you're onlyinterested in one particular
area, then you just buy that
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
one particular part.
SPEAKER_03 (19:25):
The first one is the skeleton, and then it's the
back, and then it's the upperlimb, and then it's the thorax,
until you end up with the leg.
But each book finishes in orderfor the next book to start.
So after the first book, whichis the human skeleton, the next
book is the back, which isunusual.
And the reason I did it that waywas because without a back, we
(19:47):
haven't got a body.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (19:50):
Basically.
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
Yeah.
I suppose that's true.
I hadn't really thought aboutthat.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
Because your head sits on the top, your legs are
attached to the bottom.
And anteriorly, you've got yourviscera and your heart.
Laterally, you have your limbs.
UNKNOWN (20:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:02):
But without the back, you haven't got anything.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
You can get, yeah.
Well, the head, clearly, thebrain, and the back.
That's it.
And then you do it.
SPEAKER_03 (20:09):
So we did it in seven parts.
If you put the whole booktogether, it's 1,600 pages.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Yeah, that's a big read on a one...
SPEAKER_03 (20:19):
But that's the shortened version.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
That's 1,600 pages.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:23):
I could have made it a lot bigger, but I didn't.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
That says you
SPEAKER_03 (20:27):
don't want to make it too big.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
But I
SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
enjoyed doing it.
I used to do it every Sunday.
Every Sunday for about eighthours, sitting at a breakfast
table like this, with pencilsand paper, and that was it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:40):
Because I know over your career you have declared
quite a few different parts ofthe body that nobody else has
declared before, which isfascinating.
And are those findings withinthe book...
Or sometimes I suppose theywould be, it happens all the
time, doesn't
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
it?
It happens all the time.
You can never tell.
You can dissect a body and youthink that is the standard plan.
Unfortunately, nature obviouslysays, no, no, that's too easy.
We'll make it a bit morecomplicated.
So it throws some, again, it'llthrow an extra muscle in or it
might throw an extra digit in.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Yeah.
Handy if you're a piano player.
SPEAKER_03 (21:19):
Exactly, or an extra bone in the spine or an extra
rib.
or a nerve may be going in thewrong place, or an artery may
take an unusual course.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
So there's really not, I mean, there is a
standard, but...
There's a standard, the plan isthere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
But it's not.
But it's diverse, you know, asthe textbook says.
That's why, really, the body,the cadaver, is your textbook.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Yeah.
And that's what doesn't happennow, isn't it?
The
SPEAKER_03 (21:45):
textbook is supplementary reading.
It's the body because if youdissect the body, you get a true
understanding of therelationship of one structure to
the other.
SPEAKER_02 (21:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:54):
And there's nothing to beat that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
You can have all your computer models and you can
have all your plastinatedmodels, but to sit and dissect a
cadaver and get the end result,it's a fascinating journey.
It's like...
It's a journey of you.
It's a story of you.
It's a story of the human body.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Yeah, and I think that's what I find absolutely
fascinating that, you know, youresearch all the time.
You're up at five in themorning.
You're just, your subject youlove and you can never stop
learning, which is...
It's a hobby.
It's a hobby, but it's, but thedepth of knowledge that you
have, that's the thing.
It's, you know, you...
I think it's because if you're
SPEAKER_03 (22:37):
interested in it, you remember it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (22:41):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
But it's still, you know, the door knocks and
somebody comes in from Australiaor, you know, it's the other
thing that fascinates me aboutthis is people find their way
here with word of mouth.
You know, you don't tell
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
people.
It's all word of mouth.
I have never advertised
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
it.
Which is extraordinarybecause...
It's all
SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
just been done word of mouth.
It started with Pat's clinic.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:02):
And everybody used to get recommended to go and see
Pat.
SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
But it is amazing, though, because that's
worldwide.
Pat
SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
has looked after top celebrities.
I can't give any names, butshe's looked after top
celebrities.
And had a tremendous reputation.
And then Pat and I got togetherand I said, no, no, you can't do
it without a knife or an eel.
And Pat said, no, you can.
And she did a shoulder.
And then she said, but with yourin-depth knowledge of anatomy,
you should be able to do it aswell.
(23:28):
So we did.
Develop your own techniques.
Yeah, all the techniques thatPat and I use are unique to us.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:37):
And you can't pass them on.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Such a shame! I want everybody to know! You know?
You
SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
can't pass the techniques on because it's
always having the knowledge
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
of
SPEAKER_03 (23:47):
the anatomy and the physiology.
It's have you got it in thefeeling of your hands.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's an intangiblething.
It's an intangible thing,
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
yeah.
It's the feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Which for an anatomist is interesting because
anatomy is so, you know,practical in a way.
Anatomy is
SPEAKER_03 (24:02):
supposed to be a precise subject.
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:05):
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
But you're mixing that then with, yeah,
absolutely, with the feeling.
The feeling.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:11):
Yeah, because you're feeling with your fingers.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
But what happens is I...
She just
SPEAKER_03 (24:15):
can't do that.
Yeah.
You know, you could come in withyour...
my arm, my elbow, whatever.
And if you put a machine on it,the machine's not going to be
able to detect
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
or
SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
find out.
SPEAKER_01 (24:27):
I mean, sometimes I walk in and you go, you're out.
And I go, what?
You go, you're out.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
because Pat and I have done the job for that long.
You can see it.
As
SPEAKER_01 (24:36):
soon as somebody walks in.
It's
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
like sometimes on the television, you'll see
somebody on the television.
I'll say to Pat, oh, she's gotan extra part.
I say, give over.
I say, but she's there.
You can't miss it.
You can see it.
You can't help it because it's ahobby.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:49):
It's like, if you think about it, it's like
somebody who's dedicated togolf.
What do they live for?
Golf, hitting this tiny littlewhite ball with 360 pimples on
it and hitting it.
Only you would know there was360 pimples on it.
Or a tennis player thatdedicated to live for it.
Well, it's just that what we do,it's not that we live for it,
(25:12):
it's just that it's a hobby, butit's a fascinating hobby because
it takes you around the world.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Well, the other thing is, I know that you've
been sitting somewhere justquietly having a sandwich and
Pat's spotted somebody that's,you know, maybe got something
out of line or whatever andyou've gone up and said, my
husband, you know, and theystart a conversation and you end
up fixing them there and then.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Yeah, if we can.
Don't do that so much now.
SPEAKER_01 (25:34):
No.
But they're great stories.
SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Yeah, they're great stories but they're all true.
Yeah.
But this is what makes it allinteresting and if you can, but
if you can get the anatomy andthe physiology across and the
importance of it So that youlook at, like I say to students,
just look at your hands.
You can learn a lot just bylooking at the hand.
(25:59):
Or if you're studying the arm orthe limb or the chest, just
stand in front of a mirror andlook at the body.
It's surprising how much you canactually see and how much you
can actually learn just bylooking in the mirror.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
You have to have respect for the person.
You have to, because if youremember, when people come to
us, we're not using machines.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
There's so much
SPEAKER_03 (26:24):
going on.
And nowadays, you have to be socareful.
Of course.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
But you're not, you never, I mean, it has to be a
hands-on therapy.
SPEAKER_03 (26:34):
It has to be hands-on.
It is, it's hands-on becausewe're using our hands, we're not
using any machines.
But today, unfortunately, youhave to be so careful.
So if a lady comes in that'snever been to us before, Pat's
there, Pat's the chaperone.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Yeah.
Well, you have to protectyourself.
You have to protect yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (26:50):
So we do.
SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
But we explain to people when they come in that I
have to do this or I have to dothat.
Do you mind if I move this or ifI do that?
UNKNOWN (26:58):
They don't mind.
SPEAKER_03 (26:59):
Yeah, they don't mind.
They just want you to try andhelp them out.
Of course, yeah.
But you still have to explain.
Yeah.
It's like if a lady has to takeher top off, we'll obviously
have a vest on underneath.
Yeah, yeah.
We put a towel under.
Yeah.
You have to protect theirmodesty.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
It's changed days, isn't it?
It's changed days nowadays.
Although it's protected bothparties in some ways, you know.
you have to yeah absolutely
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
we're just so careful yeah it's a full hand on
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
and speaking of you know everything that we've just
discussed there it all comesdown to well not all of it
obviously but the bones theskeleton I know we're going to
go into that in the next podcastbut give us a brief kind of
overview of what we'll betalking about next time if we're
talking about the skeletonbecause to me the skeleton's
like you know
SPEAKER_03 (27:43):
them bones them
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
bones them dry bones you know so
SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
Yeah, we'll go into the skeleton and discuss about
the human skeleton.
All 206 bones in the humanskeleton.
That's the basic plan.
206 bones.
308 in a newborn baby.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
What?
Hang on a minute, hang on aminute, hang on a minute.
My head's just burst there.
You just said 206 bones in ahuman skeleton.
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
308 bones.
as usual number and a newbornbaby.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
And 102 bones
SPEAKER_03 (28:23):
disappear.
But they don't disappear becausethey fuse to the parent bones.
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
Goodness me.
Am I looking surprised?
The bones are separate, you see?
SPEAKER_03 (28:35):
Like the hip bone, the iliac bone, that develops in
three parts.
It's not a bone with one bigbone.
It's three bones that actuallyfuse in the acetabulum, the
joint cavity.
The femur, the greatertrochanter, lesser trochanter,
they join together.
So by the time all that's doneand all the bones are totally
(28:57):
fused by the age of 25.
It
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
takes up to 25, does it?
For boys and girls?
SPEAKER_03 (29:05):
And the first bone to develop in the skeleton is
the clavicle, or the collarbone,the clivus collarbone.
Flip it on its side and itrepresents a Roman key.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Hence the word.
SPEAKER_03 (29:19):
Yeah, clavicle, because it's the most important
bone.
Because during parturition, whena baby's been born, it's the
clavicle that you have to takehold of to bring the baby out.
SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (29:32):
So it's the first point of development.
The centre of ossification, thisis the development periods of
time for bones.
The first centre for that willappear between the fifth and
sixth week of interuterine life.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Goodness me!
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
That's right.
If anything's going to go wrong,it'll go wrong in the first
eight weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
Really?
Gosh, yeah.
Gosh, that's so surprising.
I mean, I knew that it took, youknow, like brains, you know,
took longer to develop,especially boys.
I think brains take longer tojoin back up.
Yeah, they can take up to
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
21, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
But I had no idea that the skeleton was, took 25?
It would be totally, it would betotally fused.
I mean, obviously
SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
you're growing.
Yeah, you're growing, you see.
Yeah.
So by the time you're 25, everybone will have been totally
fused together in its correctposition.
So, right, if you have a longbone, you'll have a head and
you'll have the shaft.
The head's the epiphysis, theshaft is the diaphysis.
And then you'll have the groinend.
(30:31):
and the groin end is separate,so it has to join.
So that's when you look at it,you'll see on an x-ray, you'll
see a ridge, and that ridge isthe epiphyseal line and plate
where the discline of the bone,which is the groin end of a
bone, actually joins with theshaft or the diaphysis.
(30:51):
So that's why we have 308 whenwe're born, but by the time
we're all fused together, whenwe're grown up, we'll have 206.
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
Unless
SPEAKER_03 (30:58):
nature decides to throw a span in the works and
say, well, we'll give you anextra vertebra, or we'll give
you an extra rib.
SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
Yes, what about that?
But you know, like the very tallpeople or very small people, or
you know, people that areanomalies in terms of whatever
the norm is.
SPEAKER_03 (31:12):
They can still have the normal arrangements.
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
Right, but just in a larger or elongated kind of way.
If
SPEAKER_03 (31:18):
you think of it this way, if you look at the neck of
a human skeleton, it consists ofseven cervical vertebrae.
SPEAKER_02 (31:25):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (31:27):
You look at the neck of a giraffe, it has seven
cervical vertebrae.
SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Yet again, you've just blown my mind.
I
SPEAKER_03 (31:35):
thought a giraffe would have about 120.
No, it has seven.
Exactly the same, except they'rebigger.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
I did
SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
work that
SPEAKER_03 (31:43):
big.
They're
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
bigger, aren't they?
But that's extraordinary.
Really.
SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
Yeah.
And if...
There's one, the giraffe.
We haven't done this yet, butanyway, it makes it interesting
because we're talking about thegiraffe.
The recurrent laryngeal nerve ina human in the neck supplies the
larynx, the voice box.
In the giraffe, the recurrentlaryngeal nerve is over a metre
(32:10):
long.
This is comparative anatomy.
And that's why I bring it in, tomake it interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:20):
Because you're making the story interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
But yes, we're
SPEAKER_03 (32:23):
going back to the skull.
We'll cover all of the
SPEAKER_01 (32:25):
skulls.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I'm justlike, I mean, I'm an animal
fanatic, you know, but I'm juststunned that I hadn't really
thought about that in terms of,I just assumed that, you know.
So is that because in, you know,everybody's got a different
belief system, but we all comefrom the same root and we all go
in sort of different directions,if you like.
You know, we've got us as thehumans and then you've got the
(32:46):
giraffes Human history
SPEAKER_03 (32:47):
is a fascinating topic.
Yeah.
It really is, because you cantrace it back.
One of the oldest skeletons everfound was in 1974.
SPEAKER_02 (32:59):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (33:00):
In the Rift Valley in Ethiopia.
And the paleontologist was a guycalled Donald Johanson.
And it was the last day of thedig, because you only get a...
a visa to do the digs, a permit,sorry, a permit for maybe a
month, two months, or threemonths.
(33:22):
And it was the last one, and hewas driving back through the
desert, and in the headlights,he saw a reflection, something
sticking up from the sand.
And he stopped and he went andhad a look at it.
And it was a bone.
SPEAKER_01 (33:39):
Good eyesight.
SPEAKER_03 (33:42):
So he dug it, dug it all up, got the skeleton, When
he got back to base camp withthe Bowmans, they had to go to
the next state to get the restof them.
They were playing Lucy in theSky with Diamonds, the Beatles
song.
(34:03):
So he called the skeleton Lucy.
And Lucy, the skeleton of Lucy,and it took them 20 years to
find her skull.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
Oh my goodness.
Her
SPEAKER_03 (34:11):
skull wasn't with her.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
She was
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
with her family, yeah, Lucy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
So where was the skull?
SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
It was in a different part.
SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
Good heavens.
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
But it took 20 years to find
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Australia, Pythagoras, Africanus is what it
was really named.
But it took them 20 years tofind the skull.
And she was dated to be 3.4million years old.
The interesting thing aboutLucy's skeleton was that it
actually, originally, we used togo around in all fours.
And we were arboreal, which...
(34:44):
or boy remains that wereswimming through the trees.
But Lucy's skeleton actuallyshowed you the transposition of
going around on all fours tobecoming bipedal, walking on two
legs.
SPEAKER_00 (34:57):
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03 (34:58):
Because of the shape of the pelvis.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Oh, gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (35:01):
And the femurs.
3.4
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
million years.
Then
SPEAKER_03 (35:05):
about five, six years ago, another skeleton was
found, and that was dated to besix million years old.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Gosh, makes Lucy look like a young thing.
SPEAKER_03 (35:17):
Yeah, but Lucy's the most famous one.
SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
And what about this one, the more recent finding
then, that was six million yearsold?
What did that show?
Were we still in the trees atthat point?
We
SPEAKER_03 (35:26):
were
SPEAKER_01 (35:27):
still in the trees.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (35:28):
It's Lucy that was the one that actually showed you
this transmission.
SPEAKER_01 (35:31):
The
SPEAKER_03 (35:31):
change.
The change from all fours tobipedal.
And then, we've been back here17 years now,
SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
haven't we?
SPEAKER_03 (35:42):
So it's got to be about 10 years ago.
In Indonesia, in the islands ofIndonesia, on one of the
islands, they found skeletons.
And in the film, Lord of theRings, there's people in there
(36:02):
called the Hobbits.
On this remote Indonesianisland, they found the skeletons
of little people and they calledthem the Hobbits.
Really?
These are small skeletons, yeah.
And
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
when were they found?
Was it quite recently?
SPEAKER_03 (36:17):
That's got to be about 10 years ago, 10, 12 years
ago, like that, yeah.
And they were hobbits.
And they've
SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
called
SPEAKER_03 (36:22):
them hobbits?
They were called the hobbits.
They were?
Uh-huh.
They were little skeletons.
They were called hobbits.
Different to pygmies that youfind in Africa and in the Amazon
basin.
Because pygmies are just smallpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (36:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:39):
Yeah, and...
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
So did they name them the Hobbits?
SPEAKER_03 (36:43):
Yeah, that was the scientific name that they were
given, they were called theHobbits.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
Gosh, well the thing is...
On this
SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
island, this island was all vegetation.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
Gosh, so they were
SPEAKER_03 (36:53):
extinct?
They were extinct,
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
yeah.
And do they know when theybecame extinct?
SPEAKER_03 (36:57):
No.
UNKNOWN (36:58):
Gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (36:59):
Not that I know of to know.
So that's why the human skeletonin itself is a fascinating
story.
It's a vast story.
UNKNOWN (37:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Well, that's a great starting point, I think, for us
next time, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
Because basically, if you think of the human fem,
it's just a series of bonessupplemented by pieces of
cartilages.
So that cartilaginous bony fembecomes the human skeleton.
And the skeleton is...
(37:40):
So the skeleton in the animalworld, the skeleton is either,
the deeper one is theendoskeleton, and the outer one
is the exoskeleton.
So if you think of a lobster, ofa snail, that skeleton is the
exoskeleton.
And the only remnants of theexoskeleton and the human
(38:01):
skeleton are our nails.
SPEAKER_02 (38:04):
And
SPEAKER_03 (38:05):
the enamel of the teeth, which is the hardest
mineral in the body, is enamel.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
So
SPEAKER_03 (38:10):
the human skeleton is the deeper layer, which is
the endoskeleton.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
You see, the endo of the podcast, we're leaving it
with the endo skeleton, but wewill start the next time.
David, thank you so much.
And I have to say, as we'resitting here, we have got, there
is a skeleton here, isn't there?
In this, I mean, I can see amodel skeleton behind you there.
SPEAKER_03 (38:34):
The little one over there, that's the one I put
together for children, that'scalled Billy Bones.
Billy Bones.
The one in the bedroom, that'san adult one, that's called
Fred.
UNKNOWN (38:44):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
Well, Fred and Billy Bones will be the stars of the
show next time.
And the
SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
real Bones, I keep sipping.
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Thank you, David.
Thank you so much.
Dr David...
And Pat, who's just produced abox of chocolates, so I think
we'll have a break.
But another fascinatingconversation.
So I'll go into the
SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
skeleton in more detail next time.
And I'll bring a bit of historyin as well.
SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
And if you click on to the show notes, you'll get
all the details.
And you can drop Dr.
David a note or you can drop anote on the podcast homepage if
there's anything in the areayou'd specifically like to hear
David talking about or anyquestions that you have.
And thanks for listening.
Until next time.
Bye.
Bye.
You've been listening to To theReal Anatomist podcast with Dr.
(39:27):
David Robson, MDMA and myself,Alison Craig.
If you've enjoyed the show,please subscribe and share.
Until next time.
Bye.
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