August 27, 2024 • 58 mins
From the high stakes of securing venture capital to the crushing reality of laying off a beloved team, Bubba Page opens up about the emotional rollercoaster of tying one's identity to the fate of a business. Kickstarting our discussion with his experience at Launch Leads followed by the ambitious yet challenging Outro, Bubba provides invaluable insights into the realities of entrepreneurial life.
The emotional toll of startup failure can be devastating, but it's also a powerful catalyst for personal growth. Bubba bravely discusses the struggles of trying to sell a business amidst repeated rejections and the ensuing battles with depression and anxiety. Through candid reflections on personal setbacks and the path to recovery, we explore how faith, physical fitness, and self-reflection became pillars of Bubba's resilience. Wrapping up our conversation, we underscore the indispensable lessons learned from failure and encourage young entrepreneurs to embrace setbacks as integral steps towards success. This episode is a poignant reminder that growth often stems from our greatest challenges.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe (00:00):
I felt that I was a failure personally because I had tied
myself and my reputation to thebusiness so that when the
business didn't work out, then Ilooked at me and said, well
then I'm something's wrong withme.
Bubba (00:13):
Welcome to the Real F Word, welcome back to the Real F
Word podcast, and I'm soexcited to have Bubba Page here.
Bubba is a great friend of mine.
In fact, we were just talking,we couldn't scroll back far
enough it was probably 2008.
In fact, I knew Bubba beforepeople called him Bubba.
(00:34):
That's true, right, he wasstill going by his given name
and not Bubba.
But Bubba is a successfulentrepreneur but also has felt
the sting of defeat, and we'regoing to talk about that today.
And the thing that's interesting, bubba, about this approach and
you know this well because Iremember the two of us sitting
down for lunch after I hadfailed in one of my startups in
(00:57):
Colorado and I shared a lot withyou.
I shared how painful it was andI was really still trying to
process all of that and and youhad a different experience, but
one that where the company thatyou had invested in and had
raised money for and had builtand built the team and had some
early traction, didn't reallyreach its potential and failed.
(01:17):
And we I remember us talkingabout talking about this and
specifically, I don't know ifyou remember we were going to
start a club called the FailClub and in order to be a member
of the Fail Club you had like amillion bucks or more.
Right, we said, if you've raisedand lost a million dollars or
more, you can be a member of theclub.
Joe (01:35):
But if you've just had success, I know right.
Bubba (01:38):
So maybe we should launch the Fail Club right Alongside
the Real F Word podcast.
So welcome and thank you somuch for being here.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Joe (01:46):
There's so much history.
You know there's a song by BenRector called Old Friends.
Have you heard of this?
It's like one of my favoritesongs.
If you haven't heard it, golisten to it.
It's amazing.
You are one of those oldfriends.
Bubba (01:58):
I know, and that's why one of my first calls was to
Bubba.
As we were thinking about thispodcast and launching the real F
word, I thought I want to havethis conversation again with
Bubba, because I know thatyou'll be unfiltered about the
experience and we certainly.
You have a lot of success to.
That validates yourcapabilities as an entrepreneur.
(02:19):
But today we don't talk aboutany of that.
We don't talk about any of thesuccess.
We're just going to talk aboutyour experience building outro
and I want you to just sharethat story.
In fact, I remember we met inBoulder, colorado, when I lived
in Denver, when you were thereat Techstars, and there's
probably a little bit of aprecursor to that.
So tell me the story of outro.
(02:39):
Why did you start it?
How much money did you raise?
What was the vision for thebusiness?
Joe (02:44):
all right, so let's, uh, let's, start at the beginning.
So I was running a companycalled launch leads, so this
gives you an idea.
Started in 2009, an outsourcedb2b appointment setting company.
You would call them today ssdrs or bdrs.
Um, that's kind of what theterminology is today
(03:06):
Service-based company,bootstrapped.
You know, just cash flowingbusiness, service business.
I had read the book by ClaytonChristensen, the Innovator's
Dilemma and I was, and I thoughtto myself, okay, this, possibly
this business won't exist inthe future, and so what is the
next version of what I'm doingand how can I be the one to
(03:29):
build?
That was the first kind of idea, but I put that on the shelf.
I just kind of put it on theshelf.
I remember reading in magazinesand thinking, oh my gosh, look
at all these venture-backedstartups.
They're getting huge multiplesat the time and I'm doing a
service-based company and I'mstarting to realize that my
multiple on EBITDA to exit wasquite low.
(03:52):
You know, maybe it was, youknow, one to three X EBITDA, or
three to five X if you're really, really cranking, and some of
these tech companies weregetting 10 plus X multiples and
I thought, oh my gosh, I got toget into tech Like this is where
I got to go.
So, with the, with the kind ofthe idea of morphing this
business into something thatcould continue for a long time
(04:13):
and the desire of I want tolearn venture capital, I want to
understand that world and Iwould love to have the multiples
of software company Um, that'skind of where the idea came.
I didn't do anything about it,though, until I went to a Google
startup weekend, and thisGoogle startup weekend
essentially was a competitionwhere you had I don't know a
(04:34):
hundred plus people there.
You spent Friday, saturday,just that's it just Friday and
Saturday working on a business.
You had to.
Everybody could pitch abusiness, and it was like 60
seconds to pitch, and I camethere.
I was asked to be there as amentor, so I went there to
mentor other entrepreneurs, andthen when they said anybody can
pitch the idea, I was like, well, I mean, I got an idea, maybe
(04:57):
I'll pitch.
So I ended up pitching thisconcept.
At the time it was called QuotaDeck.
I didn't have a name for it atthe time, but we just came up
with QuotaDeck because we weregoing to help people fulfill
their quotas, and the ideabehind it at the time was this
1099 sales rep that could repmultiple technology companies at
(05:20):
once who were targeting thesame demographic.
So if you were targeting CMOs,you might have five to 10
companies that you could sell tothat same CMO, because a lot of
it is based on the relationshipand the hardest part is getting
in the door, setting anappointment, getting the
decision maker Anyway, probablytoo much info on the actual
product, but we ended up winning.
(05:41):
So we won that competition andthey went to the national.
So that was like the Utahstartup weekend and then we got
invited to pitch at the nationalcompetition.
Didn't win the nationalcompetition, but ended up
applying to tech stars.
I would call it the, you know,number two accelerator in the
country.
Um, y Combinator is what mostpeople know about, and so in
(06:04):
2014, I got, uh, invited to cometo the Boulder headquarters of
Techstars.
I was one of the earliest Utahcompanies to ever be accepted
into Techstars.
I tried Y Combinator and didn'tmake it, got through the
interviews, but this idea behindstarting the software company
(06:25):
became really, really excitingand the more I talked about it
to people, the more excitedpeople would get.
And it was.
It was like it was on fire, itwas.
It was downhill, it was easy.
The ball had so much momentum,the stone, whatever you want to
call it and things just came.
(06:45):
I mean, I only had a couplemeetings with investors.
First check came and I'm likeoh my gosh, is this what?
Raising venture capital?
Bubba (06:52):
is like Too easy.
Joe (06:54):
It's not.
I just got really lucky.
But I think one of the reasonsI was able to raise capital so
easily was that I had almost adecade of industry experience.
Was that I had almost a decadeof industry experience and
specifically I had clients thatwere the VC's portfolio
companies, so they had alreadyknown my name, they had seen me
(07:14):
around, they had heard of whatI've done in that similar
industry, and so when I came tothem with this tech idea, they
were like hey, this is a repeatfounder.
He knows the industry, he knowswhat's coming, he's done it
before and he's got a profitablebusiness already.
Let's give him a shot.
What could go wrong?
And he's accepted into thisprestigious tech stars.
Bubba (07:34):
What could go wrong?
Joe (07:35):
What could go wrong?
So they wrote the first checkum Peterson Ventures Kickstart
Seed Fund.
Tech stars came in, and then asmall group out of Arizona
called Tall Wave Capital.
And then shout out to my twoangel investors, which I love to
this day.
Brent Thompson and Joe Atkin,both great entrepreneurs.
Just unbelievable entrepreneursand they saw vision.
(07:57):
They believed in me and I wasdelighted right to have them be
a part of the ride.
Went through Techstars, I endedup recruiting a CTO fractional,
fractional CTO at the time andthen it is a designer because I
didn't know how to build a techproduct.
So I had a CTO and a designer,so I had the you know back and
(08:20):
front end and then I was abusiness guy and I ended up
getting another person to comeon board who helped us, kind of
from a marketing and salesy typeposition.
Anyway, three to four months in, that's when we got to see each
other.
The Techstars experience wasunreal.
I learned so much the network,the connections If you could
(08:45):
ever go through an accelerator,I think it's hugely valuable.
Um, we ended up raising morecapital through that process.
Um, cause it was first startedat like 400 and we ended up with
like 1.25.
It was our total raise.
So not a ton, but for a firsttime you know fundraiser.
That was pretty cool.
Bubba (09:06):
Yeah, but for a first time you know fundraiser.
That was pretty cool.
Yeah, that's your seed round.
Joe (09:08):
That's the money you need to build a product to validate
in the market do a little bit ofyeah sales and marketing right
so we end up going to market andstarting to pull up, get on
clients and the idea.
So it morphed.
Like most startups do it.
We pivoted from this 1099salesperson idea to becoming
more of a referral automationplatform for our sales referrals
and hiring referrals.
And as we built out thetechnology, we would have our
(09:34):
networks.
Like I would upload my linkedinnetwork into the system.
It would the algorithm, the ai.
Bubba (09:41):
I remember doing this oh, yeah, yeah we because it was
easy back in the day.
Joe (09:42):
I remember doing this.
Oh yeah, because it was easyback in the day.
You could download yourLinkedIn contacts easily, upload
the entire CSV, have all of thedata and then our algorithms
would categorize who iseverybody and how they're
connected, so that when, let'ssay, joe, you came to me and
said I wanted to talk to youknow, you wanted to talk to more
CEOs.
Well, in my network I had ahundred CEOs.
It would prompt me within theplatform to say hey, bubba, you
(10:09):
could introduce Joe to a hundredpeople.
Which ones do you feelcomfortable introducing to Joe?
And and then I would justselect well, out of those
hundred, I probably would feelcomfortable with these, like 10
or 15.
And then it would automaticallycreate this double opt-in intro
.
That's what we called it.
So you, you had opted in, I hadopted in, and then I was asking
this person, um, if they wouldbe interested in introduction.
(10:31):
Long story short, we startedgetting checks from clients.
So we had this, this.
We had real revenue coming in.
I think at some.
At one point we had 250 grandin revenue, which was this super
positive like we're doing this,a great signal People are
paying for your product, peopleare paying for the product.
They want the product.
We've built the product.
(10:52):
The introductions are working,meaning the algorithms, the AI
back in the day, before AI was athing was working.
It was finding the right people, we were getting making
connections happen.
But we couldn't make enoughconnections happen.
So the companies had prepaid,essentially for credit on the
system.
(11:12):
Oh, interesting, so you know thedomos of the world or a plural
site or a?
You know these tech companies.
They wanted these salesintroductions.
So they'd be like, yeah, here's, you know 20 grand, go give me
as many many you know of thesereferrals as you can, and as
they would get the referrals itwould like deduct out of their
thing.
Well, we started makingintroductions, but nowhere near
(11:35):
as fast as we needed.
So we really worked hard on theui and the ux, like what's
wrong?
Yeah, is it the product that'swrong?
What's the?
What's the psychology behindpeople making introductions?
And it was this deep,interesting dive.
I read this book called umpredictably irrational, which
I'd highly recommend for anytechnical co-founders.
(11:57):
Um, it is really fascinatingthat human beings are
essentially predictablyirrational and it walks through
a million scenarios ofscientific evidence.
And it walks through a millionscenarios of scientific evidence
and it helps you to build abetter product.
Bubba (12:09):
I remember listening to so many books on ui ux because
for some reason we just couldnot people were male they
weren't making the referrals,they weren't making enough okay,
we had this, we had a baseline,so they have this credit 20,000
bucks and you're just chippingaway and you couldn't fulfill.
Joe (12:28):
So that was the first problem.
Bubba (12:30):
So tell me about that moment where you're like, uh-oh,
I have a problem.
What was the signal that youwere seeing it?
Joe (12:35):
was like oh, it just must be a UI UX issue.
So, team, let's go, let'schange it up.
Bubba (12:39):
Let's make it better.
Let's make it better.
Joe (12:40):
Let's make it this.
Oh yeah, of course you problemsolve.
That's what you do as anentrepreneur, right?
So it was never like we'rescrewed.
It was like, oh, let's just fixit, change this, let's change
that, let's test this A, b, that.
And we just could not get thevolume of introductions to be
happening fast enough at thatlevel.
And I think the concept ofpeople uploading their contacts
(13:02):
like we had ended up having twoto three million contacts
uploaded in the system.
So that wasn't even the problem.
It was people actuallyfollowing through and just
clicking a box saying, yes, I amhappy to introduce these people
.
It was you were facilitatingthe entire introduction.
They just had to opt in that'sall they had to do is just check
the box I.
I agree you're drafting theemail or the linkedin intro and
(13:25):
a whole bit and we thought thatmaybe there was something off
with, like, their incentive,like what is their incentive to
make an introduction?
And at first it was like, well,it's goodwill, you're making
introductions to them becauseyour people will make
introductions for you.
And they're like, well, do wedo we need to add cash and a
cash incentive.
And I'm like, well, there'spros and cons of cash incentives
.
Because then there's like thismoney exchange and does that
(13:45):
change the vibe?
So we just kept testing,testing, testing, testing,
testing to try and get this towork.
And then I think we weren't theonly companies trying to
leverage linkedin's uh api andour contacts and they shut all
of their api down.
Now they didn't.
They couldn't shut it down sothat you could never get your
contacts, but they made it amiserable experience.
(14:07):
Today, if you download yourLinkedIn contacts, for example,
I have 23,000 followers onLinkedIn.
If I downloaded I did, Idownloaded my contacts I got 500
emails.
That's it from 23,000.
So they are not willing toshare everybody's and people
have the right to not opt in toshare with their contacts.
(14:28):
That back in the day you hadeverything.
So two things they first shutoff the API, which was
essentially how we got all ofour data was through LinkedIn.
So one error for sure was thatwe relied on this single,
singular platform to be our datasource, was that we relied on
this singular platform to be ourdata source.
So when that happened, we'relike, okay, well, let's jump to
(14:48):
Google Contacts.
And so we were trying to figureout how to do Google Contacts.
but Google Contacts were likeyour grandma and your aunt and
uncle, and it wasn't thebusiness people that we needed,
nor did it have the form-filledpieces in it.
Bubba (15:06):
So how far into the business are you at this point?
So we are in Like a year or two.
Joe (15:10):
We are in a year and a half by this point, because we had
this traction, early traction.
Yeah, we got early traction,which gave us this almost a
false positive.
And so this false positive,like we're telling everybody,
like we're making it happen Look, we got revenue, we're making
intros, it's happening.
And then it was about a yearand a half-ish that LinkedIn
(15:31):
shut everybody off.
Bubba (15:32):
But even before LinkedIn shut it down there were still
signals, there wasn't enoughvelocity in the introductions
right To sustain business.
Joe (15:39):
Yeah, so that velocity, but I never saw that as the issue.
I really never did because Ijust thought that could be
solvable.
Ux issue yeah, Do we need anapp?
Is it an app issue?
Do we need push notifications?
Is it because back in the dayit was just a laptop, you know
desktop functionality, so thatwasn't even what we thought was
a problem.
And so, as we continued to testand test and test, and then I
(16:03):
ended up recruiting, let's sayhere a year into it, my
co-founder, Dave Oldham.
Loved working with him, Like itwas just so much fun, and then
brought on, like Zach Barney onthe sales side and some other
amazing people how big was theteam at its height.
Oh geez I mean we only had six,I think at our height, Still
small.
(16:23):
But we were hiring because wehad this false positive, we had
revenue.
Bubba (16:27):
Were you guys paying yourself from the money you
raised?
We?
Joe (16:29):
had paid ourselves.
Yeah, we had paid ourselves avery small percentage of what
would normally be a salary.
But then the second we let'ssee here we were probably a year
and a half into it is when westopped paying Dave and I
stopped taking a paycheck and wemade that choice to keep the
payroll going.
Bubba (16:49):
How much cash did you have in the bank at this point?
Probably at that point, maybeonly 250 grand or something like
that, so your cash balance isdwindling.
Joe (16:58):
We were extremely efficient , like cash efficient, so that
could last us almost a year.
You weren't burning a lot ofcash.
Bubba (17:04):
No, we were not burning it.
Joe (17:05):
I mean, we worked out of my basement office, but it was
literally.
They'd come to my house, walkinto the basement and we were
working out of a room, um, andit what?
Nobody was getting paid a ton,uh, but we were generous with
with equity and things like that, and just let's talk about
equity.
Bubba (17:24):
So when you went out and raised money from these great
investors, right, who we bothrespect, what was the vision
that you painted for them?
What did you think the outcomecould be?
The financial outcome could beif you guys continue to execute
over five or six or seven years,I mean with the original
concept, without even that falsepositive of revenue.
Joe (17:44):
They told me they were like Bubba.
This is a binary outcome.
You will be the biggest thingout there, competing with
LinkedIn potentially, or you'llbe nothing, like there were and
I was like okay those are toughwords.
Bubba (17:57):
now right, give it a shot .
Yeah, you have to compete witha multi-billion dollar company
like.
Joe (18:02):
LinkedIn, and and I never thought that we would
necessarily compete, I thoughtwe would partner, I thought we'd
get acquired by, I thoughtthat's maybe the direction we
were going to go.
So yeah, but it was a buy-in,it was a billion dollars or bust
right.
Bubba (18:15):
That was what everyone thought.
That's what you thought.
You thought listen, this goeswell, this is my last thing.
Yeah right and I'll retire andclimb out Everest.
But but if it doesn't work out,it was going to be a bust.
Yeah, so you, you had your eyeswide open going into it oh for
sure this was a little bit of aswing for the fences type.
Joe (18:32):
Opportunity 100 and I was okay with that because I had
built this steady cash flowbusiness, profitable business
services, services business.
That was great and it wassteadily growing ink five or
let's say ink 5,000, like threeyears in a row.
I had hired a ceo to run it dayto day and he was doing a great
job I had given him equity andsalary.
Bubba (18:50):
Gave you offered the ceo gig to me once I did remember
that.
Joe (18:53):
oh yeah, I wanted you to do it.
I probably should have.
I don't know who knows.
Everything happened for areason, but um, but yeah it.
It was an interesting vibe,because I think I'm a glass half
full type of a person alwayshave been, so, as we would come
into problems, I would just sitdown and how do you fix it, how
do you solve it?
(19:14):
That's just what you do andthat's how I always approach
everything.
And then I believe, as a salesoriented entrepreneur, sales and
revenue solve most problems.
Sure, it was, is my belief, Istill is my belief.
Most problems, though not allproblems.
And so I just thought well,let's just sell to get ahead of
(19:35):
it.
So I brought in moresalespeople and we sell Brute
force.
Bubba (19:39):
Just sell more clients.
Joe (19:42):
But the reality is that was the easy part and we didn't
know that.
So we were getting these,because they all wanted what we
had, what we were promising theywanted.
They wanted more sales leads,they wanted more hiring
referrals you had identified apain.
Bubba (19:56):
You had identified a clear need we had nailed the
pain for sure, the messagemarket fit was like spot on
right and that's evidenced bythe frictionless sales process.
But the delivery right, youcouldn't deliver on the brand
promise.
Is that Totally?
Joe (20:10):
That's what happened and and and now that I can look back
, so, so we ended up shutting itdown as about two and a half
years into it.
Okay, so you're two and a halfyears in, let's.
So yeah, so we had to let peoplego at like year two.
Okay, tell me about that.
Oh, so painful.
Don't get me wrong.
I've hired and fired 200 pluspeople.
In my career I had laid peopleoff.
It was years earlier.
(20:30):
We had, like, in our previousbusiness I had like six of our
biggest clients all quit at thesame time and so we had to lay
people off.
But for whatever reason, thisone, it just it stung so deep.
Family, right Like this, is avery small group.
These are people that Irespected, that I loved that.
(20:51):
We saw the vision together andwe were seeing the success
happen together, and so when itstopped, we were all just
bewildered Like why?
Why is this not working?
How come we can't change the UIUX well enough to get people to
do it?
Change the UI UX well enough toget people to do it?
(21:12):
So I think all of us were inthis pondering about why, why?
How did this not work?
I remember we'd go to ourinvestors and I tried to keep
our investors up to speed thewhole time, like hey, look,
we're struggling, we found this,this is great, but this isn't
working.
Hey, we did this.
It's awesome, this thing isn'tstill working here.
We got revenue, but we'restruck.
And then LinkedIn, oh my gosh.
And then when we came to themand we had probably six months
(21:36):
of runway left.
Six months of runway with noteam, just to keep operations
going and keep the site up, andno salaries or anything like
that.
We went to the, the investors,like, look, we have, like we
have these five tests that wecould do and if we do these five
tests, there's a chance that wecould, we could hit it and it
(21:59):
could succeed.
But I can't.
I was honest.
I said, look, but I can'tpromise.
So you had five bets, five bets.
But if we had these five betsthen we would need a little bit
extra runway.
How much more capital?
Like another 250 grand?
Okay, and be like, okay, if wehad these five bets, I think we
could do it and I think there'sa chance we can hit it.
But I won't and I can'tguarantee that.
(22:21):
I'm going to be honest with you, like I just don't know.
And they and they looked at mein the eye and they were like,
look, bubba, we love you, wethink this idea is great, but I
don't think it's the right timeto put more capital into it.
And I remember the dagger thatjust like felt in my soul
because you knew that was itwhen they said yeah, when they
were like we're done, we're notgoing to put more cap.
(22:43):
Yeah and I knew that the signalbehind my investors, who had
invested in us the whole way, ifI were to go try to raise
additional capital outside, withthem saying no, very, very,
very small chances.
So they essentially said, look,try and find a soft landing.
And I was like, well, I'venever done that before.
Bubba (23:04):
But I'm a sales-.
Is there such a thing?
Yeah, I'm a sales-orientedentrepreneur.
Joe (23:07):
Let me see if I can do this .
So I essentially spent the nextsix months solely trying to
generate a buyer for the assets,for the connections, for the
user base, whatever.
And I found that it is a lotharder to sell a business than
(23:28):
to be acquired.
Those two are very differentthings.
For sure, when you have peopleapproaching you to get acquired
versus you pitching yourbusiness, it is very.
I won't say that it's notimpossible, but I failed.
I failed at getting that doneand I worked.
Bubba (23:46):
How many conversations did you have with potential
buyers?
Oh, I probably have this.
Joe (23:49):
I probably still have well, maybe not on the spreadsheet,
but at least 150 people.
Bubba (23:55):
Anyone that could benefit from the product or the
traction or the technology, likeyou were just trying I'd even
talk to like small PE firmsabout like.
Joe (24:03):
Could you wrap this?
Bubba (24:04):
in or roll this in, roll it up.
And did anyone get serious inthe?
Joe (24:08):
yeah, oh, yeah, yeah so we had a funnel and you know, went
through the funnel and landedwith like seven like truly
interested buyers and I thought,hey, this is seven, like we
could do a little bidding, maybewe can actually get something
real out of this.
Bubba (24:21):
Um, and essentially in the end all of them were like
nah, we're gonna pass, so we'repass when you were down to the
last one, because I've been inthis situation right when, like,
my only reasonably positiveoutcome would be to sell the
asset or sell the business, andI remember like the moment that
the last potential acquirer cameand said, hey, in fact, this
(24:46):
other business it was the LATimes, oh my gosh who had their
own set of issues, and they justlike, hey, we looked at it and
I knew, like the moment theysaid no, like it was like the
domino, and then everything thathappened after was super
painful.
What was that moment?
Do you remember the lastpotential acquirer?
When they told you like hey,we're not going to do it.
Joe (25:06):
I don't remember the name of them, but I do remember
getting off the phone and likelooking at Dave, who he and I
have now been working for a longtime without any pay and with
the hope and dream of, like,making this work, and uh, and I
do believe there was, there wasquite a few months where even I
even told Dave, like look, youdon't, you don't need to work,
go find your next thing, I'lljust try and sell it.
(25:27):
But I remember calling him upand just saying, look, dude, I
don't think this is going tohappen, like I really I just
don't think there's anyone outthere.
And LinkedIn was still closeddown.
So, like we didn't necessarilyhave a solution for some of the
problems that we had facedalready.
The problems that we had facedalready, um, but I, I personally
(25:53):
went into what I think was myfirst level of depression and
anxiety was in that moment of mylife where, uh, I felt like and
this is a big caveat I wantpeople to hear I felt that I was
a failure personally, because Ihad tied myself and my
reputation to the business, sothat, so that when the business
didn't work out, then I lookedat me and said, well then, I'm
(26:15):
something's wrong with me.
And it was incredible becausesome of these investors I didn't
recognize it at the time, butthey would set me down and be
like, look, bubba, we know it'snot your fault Like you worked
incredibly hard, we you were,you kept us up to date on
everything and if you were tostart a new company, we'd back
(26:38):
you again.
And I remember when I when Iheard that it didn't fully
penetrate because I was so downon myself.
But now that I look in the pastI can see that that was like
this, this, um, glowing light,that although it didn't
penetrate at the time, it grewover time and it helped me to
rebuild some of that confidence.
(26:59):
But it took years to rebuildconfidence, which is
embarrassing, to say the least.
But I remember the depths ofdepression was probably a six
month timeframe where I justlike, wasn't myself.
It was hard on my marriage, itwas hard on my outside
relationships, my careerbasically stopped, um, and I
(27:22):
ended up becoming a prepper andI started prepping and, uh, I
kind of had this religiousawakening and I started
exercising more, like it wasfrom.
I started putting in some goodpriorities into my life that I
can now look back and say thatI'm grateful for.
I was in the depths of hell,for sure, in that context I've
(27:49):
since been through harder things, but that was extremely
difficult at the time and theworst was my friends, the angel
investors to have to go to themand say I don't have your money
and I literally cannot returnyou any capital because we tried
for so long thinking there washope to sell, hope to sell, hope
(28:11):
to sell.
Bubba (28:12):
Yeah, you trusted me, Like I had that experience right
.
Joe (28:15):
Oh yeah.
Bubba (28:16):
And it is incredibly painful to be able to just
acknowledge like I dideverything I could, but there's
not going to be a dime back fromthat money that you invested
and there's really nothing.
Sometimes you feel like there'snothing to show for a dime back
from that money that youinvested and there's really
nothing.
Sometimes you feel like there'snothing to show for it.
Joe (28:31):
Oh yeah, and you're just like.
I worked my tail off for almostthree years and I've got
nothing to show for it.
How am I going to pay?
Bubba (28:36):
back my family for all the time and sacrifice?
How am I going to pay back myinvestors who trusted me?
Right, and you're a steward ofthis capital.
And then what's up?
Phil fans, you know, as we'velistened to so many guests on
this podcast, that the road tosuccess is often paved with
failure, with a lot ofchallenges and even full-on face
(28:59):
plants.
But there's a thing that youcould do to help skip some of
those bumps and bruises, andthat's really where the
consultants at Amplio come in.
See, amplio offers fractionalexecutives in finance, marketing
and HR, and these are peoplewho've experienced a lot.
They've been in the trenches,they've built businesses,
they've failed.
But here's the kicker They'velearned from those failures and
(29:23):
now they're applying all thatwisdom to your business to
support you.
So you don't have to learn thehard way.
I mean, think about it.
Instead of stumbling around inthe dark and hoping you don't
hit the wall, you could bringsomeone in who's already mapped
out that room right.
Amplio consultants and expertshave worked with and for
numerous companies of all sizesand they've gathered insights on
(29:43):
what works and where to focusand how to actually grow your
business efficiently.
So while we embrace failure onthis podcast, there is no rule
that says you have to fail ateverything yourself.
So check out Amplio and see howtheir fractional executives can
help your business move forwardand avoid those painful
learning curves.
Sometimes the smartest move islearning from someone else's
(30:06):
failure.
Visit Ampliocom to learn more.
Tell me, like you used the worddepression and like I just want
to talk about that for a minute, Like you are a really
optimistic person.
You're a you said it earlieryou're a glass half full person,
and I know this about you,bubba.
Why do you think a failedstartup, which is such a common
outcome, had that type ofemotional impact for?
Joe (30:30):
you.
Well, I think there was probablysome insecurities that I had
not addressed from even mychildhood and I know this goes
like way back, but we all haveinsecurities.
I've been learning a lot aboutthem in the recent year and, and
I think our childhood woundsand I'm not talking about like
(30:51):
big T trauma, but like little Ttrauma.
My parents were amazing.
They were phenomenal.
I had great siblings.
What a wonderful upbringing Ihad.
But we all have our issues ofour upbringing and I think I was
a black sheep of the family.
I have doctors, dentists,lawyers.
I'm the only entrepreneur.
(31:11):
I remember, you know, incollege getting involved in my
first startup, borrowing fivegrand from my parents to invest
in my startup to earn equity andand I knew that they didn't
believe in it they were justlike donating that money knowing
that it would never come back.
And when I did pay them back,plus interest because I was able
to sell my ownership, I hadthis pride of see.
(31:36):
I'm going to show you that Ican do this.
Well, why did I have a chip onmy shoulder?
I'm the youngest child, I wasalways the baby and I was this
black sheep.
I never got the scholarshipslike my siblings did.
I didn't get the straight A's,like my siblings did.
I did well in sports, so thatwas kind of where I found myself
(32:01):
was like a sports person.
But if you think deeply enoughabout us as adults, a lot of who
we are and what we've become isbecause of our childhood
upbringing.
All of it and and this chip onmy shoulder is what got me to
start my next business.
So, you know, from that littlecollege business to then doing
the one after Junto Partners,which you and I did together in
(32:21):
2008.
And in 2009, when I started, Iwas like no, I'm going to go do
this.
I was oblivious and naive towhat the outcome could be.
But it worked and it took me afew years to get it stable, but
then it it really grew.
And you know, earning a half amillion dollars a year as a
salary is not bad for a 20something year old.
And so I look back at, likerunning this venture-backed
(32:43):
startup, the opportunity costsof losing that type of salary.
Uh, you know, for two and ahalf years.
You know for two and a halfyears that adds up, and so you
know that's me investing intothat other startup.
Anyway, the thing that I wantpeople to realize is that if
your business fails and you'vetried everything that you can in
(33:07):
your power to do and work ashard as you possibly can, know
that you personally are not afailure, that it was the
business that failed.
And if you can understand thatit was the business that failed
and the faster you can get backup and keep going and start
something else, even if thatstart something else means you
go get a job there's nothingwrong with that.
(33:29):
But the sooner you get back onyour feet, dust yourself off and
get back in, the better you'llbe off.
I think I was in a positionwhere I didn't have to go back
to work right away, and so Itook this time and it was
healing for me and I feel likethere was.
(33:50):
You know, exercise and healthwas a really important part.
God was a huge element for it.
I I have, I'm always been a Godfearing person, a faith based
person, but I hadn't.
I hadn't been reborn yet, Ihadn't had an awakening yet.
And now I look back and I say Ican see that God used this
(34:12):
experience for me to wake me upto the reality of my
circumstances and for me torecognize that life wasn't just
about being on cover ofmagazines, thousands of
employees and hundreds ofmillions of dollars.
That's what he needed me tolearn.
(34:32):
Dollars, that's what he neededme to learn.
And even though I felt inspiredto begin the business in the
first place, I felt like Godtold me to start the business
and it didn't work.
You'd think like, well, why God?
You told me to do it, but itdidn't work.
What the heck?
And?
Um, I think I the way I look atit now is I see the lessons I
(34:55):
needed to learn personally, andhe used this experience to
humble me, to bring me to trustin him more and to dedicate more
of my life to him, and so thatyear 2016-17, was a year that I
kind of turned my own personalself around.
2017 was a year that I kind ofturned my own personal self
(35:16):
around, really rededicatedmyself to God and church and
scripture study and trying tocleanse myself and become a
better person.
I don't think I would havegotten to that point without
this level of failure andthere's opposition in all things
we're taught.
So I had this horrificexperience and then I was
(35:40):
brought into this light and andI just see God using these
experiences to teach me what Iwas supposed to learn and since
then it's been almost a you knowclose, what is it?
Seven years, eight years.
Since then it's been almost ayou know close, what is it?
Seven years, eight years.
I can see that pattern thatI've still failed on other
(36:00):
things in life and in work,whatever it is, and he's
leveraging these experiences toteach me what I need to learn.
And I just think there's a lotgoing back to our childhood
thing.
Sorry, I got off tangent.
I think if we can start torecognize our relationships with
our mother and our father andhow.
There's a book called Attached.
(36:21):
I would highly recommend it.
It talks about attachmentstyles and theory around
attachment, being anxious oravoidant and wanting to be
secure.
There's so much healing thatcan be had for all adults if we
understood why we are and why weact the way we do.
(36:42):
Anyway, there's a whole othertangent there.
Bubba (36:44):
So how long did it take you?
I love that you've shared someof the coping mechanisms right,
what you had to kind of rely onas you were going through this
really dark period of your life,and I love that physical
fitness and faith.
I think you talked aboutbecoming a prepper.
That's an interesting twist,but how long did it really take
(37:05):
you to build?
Your confidence and get readyfor the next, the next venture,
the next big project you know Ihate to admit this, but like so,
2017, we're in 2024.
Joe (37:26):
Um, seven years later, I'm still working on it Like there's
elements of my confidence thathave been shattered and and I
ended up, you know, going fromthat business that didn't work
out and, uh, taking some timeoff prepping.
And then I joined my the themom of my kids with her business
(37:52):
and started building that andit was a soft landing for me.
It was working, we were growing, I felt like I was utilizing my
skills properly and building ateam and systems and processes,
but I essentially decided to putmy career on hold because I had
a spouse that wanted to grow Athriving business.
Bubba (38:15):
Yeah.
Joe (38:16):
I wanted to grow and do her goals and passions Well.
She had supported me for 10years, so of course I would
support why not?
But what I didn't recognize isthat when I did that, I didn't
fully overcome my fears.
Right, I didn't fully overcomemy fears Right and although we
(38:37):
grew and were very profitableand had plenty of success in
those entities, I thinkpersonally I limited myself.
Never restored your confidence.
Uh-huh, and it was about a yearand a half ago, two years ago,
that it was time to not do thatbusiness together anymore.
(38:58):
And and that's when I was like,okay, what am I going to do?
Yeah, what am I going to do?
I need to rebuild myself, andyou and I talked early, early on
about it, and it took me waylonger than it should have to
figure out what I was going todo.
I just wanted to be socalculated because of the fear
of failure.
Bubba (39:18):
Again, I feel the same way, right like you.
You just want to make sure thatyou don't get yourself into
that spot again because of thecost, the emotional and mental
health tax that comes withentrepreneurship generally, and
especially when it doesn't golike you had planned.
I think, as a.
Joe (39:36):
The younger you are, I highly recommend starting
businesses.
The younger you are, I knowyou're going to think well, I
don't have an experience, I'mnot an expert in something, I
I'm naive, and it's like youknow what.
Those are all awesomecharacteristics because the more
you've been around the block,the more you know it will most
likely fail.
Because the more you've beenaround the block, the more you
know it will most likely fail,and because they usually do
(39:57):
Businesses.
What is the?
You know?
I don't even know what thepercentage is anymore, but a lot
.
Bubba (40:02):
It's the most probable outcome of every startup, right,
but we never have thisconversation the way we're
having it today, and Iappreciate your openness and
vulnerability like I just want,like what's the?
When you think back to outroand like what would you do
different?
Because it's easy to ascribe afailure to something outside of
our control yeah we talk a lotabout this like it's the market,
(40:24):
it's capital, it's competition,it's linkedin, the linkedin api
right like there's no way Icould like rebound after that.
But what did you do wrong?
Like when you've reflected onthat, like what are the two or
three lessons that you want toensure that you never make those
decisions or those mistakesagain?
Joe (40:43):
Let's see.
I think one of them is Iprobably hired, hired too soon.
I think the false positivesgave me this hope and, being a
sales driven entrepreneur, wherethat is part of my expertise,
that is something I knew how todo Hire sales people, build a
team, hire sales, go, go go.
I think we did that way toosoon, now that I look at it,
(41:06):
because that could have extendedrunway.
Bubba (41:09):
There were probably three hires that we shouldn't have
had, so you would have justcontinued founder-led sales for
a longer period of time beforeyou brought in more sales people
.
Yeah, but what was so?
Joe (41:20):
interesting is that I did that in part because I needed to
go raise additional capital.
Yeah, of course, and whenyou're raising capital, that's
like at least a half-time job.
Yeah, it's a full-time salesjob is what it is, and so my
ability to close more sales waslimited.
Because I was raising capital,so I brought in sales people to
continue that.
Bubba (41:39):
But if you would have spent the same amount of time
selling the product intocustomers, you might have been
able to solve some of yourproblem with revenue versus with
outside capital yeah, so I'dsay that was a mistake for sure.
Joe (41:51):
um, being reliant on a single entity like a LinkedIn,
that was a problem, that was amistake.
We just never thought ever thatthey would ever shut down our.
Api, why it's our personal likeso building?
You know a lot of people buildlike an Instagram thing.
It's like okay, be aware theymay just shut you off one day.
Bubba (42:14):
We'll do whatever they want, whenever they want, with
complete disregard for yourstartup.
Joe (42:18):
Yeah, totally, and there's many, many stories like that.
So be aware If you're buildingsomething that is attached
Dependent.
Dependent is the right word.
That's not the right businessmodel.
Diversify, at least outside ofjust one Another mistake.
I should have stayed healthierthroughout the process
(42:44):
physically healthier andprobably mentally healthier.
I think I was so worried and sonervous and anxious about the
business.
I think I was so worried and sonervous and anxious about the
business.
You know succeeding that I put.
You know, exercise and eatingright and sleeping right on the
back burner, um, and that wasprobably my like worst physical
(43:08):
fitness state of my life.
Bubba (43:10):
Do you think that impacted your performance?
Oh, as a leader, as a founder,I think even purely confidence.
Yeah, fitness state of my life.
Do you think that impacted your?
Joe (43:15):
performance, oh for sure.
As a leader, as a founder, Ithink even purely confidence, If
you don't like.
I love CrossFit.
It's been a really good thingfor me.
Bubba (43:21):
You look great now, thank you.
Joe (43:22):
I appreciate it, but I went working really hard.
And I think that dedication, Ithink you have a clearer mind,
you have the right chemicalsgoing through your body.
If you're eating healthierfoods, you're going to be, you
know.
I think your brain is stronger,your body's stronger, Like your
emotional well-being isstronger.
I do agree that I wasn't closeenough.
(43:43):
I should have been closer toGod through the process as well.
So, if we're like the buckstops with me, I was a founder
CEO Like the business failedbecause of me and my choices and
decisions, Sure, they'reextenuating circumstances, but,
like I accept that as a CEO,founder, I am the last straw.
And so these are things that Ibring up because, uh, you know
(44:06):
my relationship with God.
Although I was still going tochurch, I had not dedicated
myself to him Like I I believe Ishould be.
Um, and, and you know thehealth side and the family I
lived away from my family forthree and a half months and I'd
come and see them every coupleof weeks or two three weeks or
(44:28):
something and they would livehere in Salt Lake, my wife.
We had three kids.
Fourth was on the way.
That was an incrediblydifficult time, a very difficult
time.
She was supportive for me to go, but through the process it was
incredibly difficult.
Now people have to go in themilitary, people have to go on
(44:49):
job sites, people have to dothings like this.
So it's not that you can'tsucceed in doing it.
For us it was a huge blow andso I don't believe that was best
.
Bubba (45:01):
Some of those relationships were weakened
through that entrepreneurialjourney with Outro.
What would you have donedifferent?
Joe (45:10):
So, as a young entrepreneur , I had goal, goals list, very
temporally driven sure, millionsof dollars, hundreds of
employees, covers of magazines,awards that's what I desired.
That's how you were measuringyour success I was measuring my
six on that.
And I look at that now in thepast and I say because of my
(45:34):
upbringing, I felt like that wasthe only way I could prove my
worth in the world Was if Iaccomplished these things and I
became a multimillionaire and,you know, won all the awards.
Then finally, they would respectme and I, you know I, I
wouldn't be the black sheepanymore.
I didn't think that along theway, that wasn't a conscious
(45:54):
thought.
I can now look backward and say, ah, I think those are some of
my little tweaks, that I wasdoing so changing your desire.
There's nothing wrong withwanting to have financial
freedom.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
With wanting to have financialfreedom.
(46:14):
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
But I think if you put thatover the most important things
in your life, it may causeproblems.
And so I knew that going awayfrom the family was a temporary
time and I'd be back.
So for that temporary time, Ithought it'd be okay to
sacrifice from a familyperspective.
I look now and I say maybe thatwasn't the best.
Bubba (46:35):
I feel the same way.
You and I talked about this.
I spent five years working fora company in Colorado and three
of those years I lived here inSalt Lake in a condo, downtown
Denver, and I spent far too manynights in my condo in Denver
versus in my bed with my familyand at home with my family.
I think back and I've had thatsame learning that the price was
(47:00):
not worth the benefit or thereward period, even if it would
have been a massive financialoutcome.
Those are nights that I cannever get back.
And it doesn't mean we don'thave to travel sometimes.
Joe (47:13):
Of course.
Bubba (47:14):
But if I had a do-over, that's one of the things that I
would I mean six kids right here, eight kids right here we could
.
Joe (47:20):
We've done our part I think it's important to remember.
I mean young entrepreneurs.
You just, you're just grinding,you're just doing what you,
whatever, it takes rightwhatever it takes.
And there is an element of thatand then I know are VCs who will
say I will only fund people whowill do whatever it takes.
I'm not that guy.
So when I'm writing checks nowas Influenced IBC, I want to see
(47:42):
some more balance and I maymiss out on some incredible
business opportunities.
But if I can tell that thisperson loves his Lambo more than
he loves his family, that'sprobably not the right guy for
me.
Bubba (47:54):
Yeah, I don't invest in anyone with Lambos.
Joe (47:57):
That's part of my investment criteria.
If you have a Lambo and you'refunding your own business.
You're not using my money,exactly, but there are these
life principles.
So you've probably heard thisbefore, but you fill up this
glass jar with boulders and thenstones, you know, pebbles, sand
(48:17):
, water.
You put your most importantthings in your life first, and
then the rest can come out.
And so for me now you know, Iput God, I try to put God first.
That has to be my number oneright the relationship with your
spouse and your kids, yourhealth, and then work, and I
(48:39):
look at that as and there's awhole bunch of other things in
there right Service and charitythat are incredibly important,
but it's hard to think, okay,I'm going to go change the world
, I'm going to become the nextJeff Bezos or Elon Musk and have
those priorities in order, andthe honest truth is I don't need
(49:03):
or want to be the next JeffBezos or Elon Musk.
I respect them for what they'vedone and they are incredibly
genius human beings, but I wouldnot choose that for my life.
I would prefer to choose moreof a lifestyle that brings me
joy and brings me closer to myfamily.
Bubba (49:28):
I love.
Thank you so much.
There's so much wisdom thereand you've been so open and
vulnerable about like um.
What are what matters to muchwisdom there and you've been so
open and vulnerable about likeum?
What are what matters to younow and what you've learned
through that journey?
Why do you think there's suchan aversion to the word failure
Like?
Why do you think like, just, wedon't.
We know it intellectually, butwe don't say it, we don't talk
about it in unvarnished ways.
(49:50):
What do you think that is thatpride?
Joe (49:52):
Yeah for sure, a hundred percent pride.
It's, it's our inability to.
It's our insecurities.
I'm going to go back to that.
It's our insecurities.
We're sitting here in thisbusiness podcast.
You know, I know you've hadsuccesses.
I know the people who arelistening have had successes.
It's embarrassing to say Ifailed and here's all the
reasons why I'm a failure orwhat I did to make this fail.
(50:15):
It's.
It's hard to hear.
I don't.
Nobody wants to talk about itbecause it's awkward.
Bubba (50:20):
It's still does it still hurt just a little bit to talk
about outro, because it stillhurts me when I have to talk
about the specifics of a failedventure and the money that I
lost and the decisions that Imade.
Seven years later, you and Ihave both been on this similar
journey.
I'm just getting to this pointwhere I can even host a podcast
talking about failure andactually share my experiences
openly.
(50:40):
And you're right.
It's embarrassing Like we justdon't want to acknowledge it.
We want to hide from it.
Still, and I think that'swhat's so liberating, when you
and I can have a conversationand be like yep, we're failed
entrepreneurs and we're okay.
Joe (50:55):
Yeah, we're okay and we're still alive?
Bubba (50:57):
Yeah, we're still alive and we learned and we're growing
, but we did not hit the ballout of the park.
In fact, we didn't even get theball into the outfield.
Joe (51:08):
Nope, nope, it stayed at home plate.
Yep, no-transcript for me to beable to feel like I'm just
(51:36):
hopefully, you know, creepingout of this failed mentality and
thinking more positively aboutmyself, saying okay, I can do
this or I can't, and having thatpositive outlook, even though
I'm a positive person by nature.
It's been a struggle, for sure,and and it's interesting that
(51:58):
it could, you know, potentiallya decade of my life will I
attribute to feeling, havingthese types of feelings, and
it's not an overnight, like getup the next day and you're fine
and you're not going to thinkabout the failure again.
Um, and I hope not.
I think it's.
It's where you can learn themost.
Uh, people talk about that allthe time.
(52:19):
You learn more from yourfailures than you do your
successes.
We just don't talk about it.
We just don't talk about it.
And and I would suggest, ifyou're, if you're not willing to
talk about it yet, that youjournal it, that you write it
down, at least get it out.
Because I think, asentrepreneurs, when somebody
asks you, how are you doing,how's your business doing, what
do you answer oh, it's great,it's going great, doing good.
Bubba (52:41):
Yeah, it's great and you're dying inside because you
can't make payroll and we haveto watch.
We open up LinkedIn and it'spost after post about wins and
successes and raising capitaland selling businesses and
acquisitions, and it's hard tosee the reality through all of
that.
Polish and varnish.
Joe (53:01):
Yeah.
I think, realizing thateveryone's going through their
own crap, whether it'sprofessionally or personally.
Every human being is goingthrough some level of crap, some
level of hell that they have togo through, and it is part of
your plan.
It's why you're on this earth.
You have to go through it Again.
I'll go back to the oppositionand all things.
(53:23):
Know that whatever you're goingthrough right now, it is for
your good.
That's a quote, not mine.
It is for your good.
And you have to look and saywhy is this for my good?
If you're going through thisdepths of despair, look up and
ask God why?
Why is this for my good?
(53:43):
If everything that goes on inthis life is for my good, then
why?
And you may you may get someanswers.
Bubba (53:50):
One of this has been a profound story and sermon today.
I love, I love it.
Maybe we should rename thepodcast the entrepreneurial
therapy session, cause I feellike over the course of the next
several weeks is we talked tomore and more entrepreneurs and
and I hope the audience feelsthis Um, we're we're getting to
the really root of whyentrepreneurship can be so hard
(54:13):
and, um, and I just wonder howthis experience for you has
shaped the way that you investas a venture capitalist, like
now that you've had a failure orsome like.
Does that change the way youanalyze businesses or invest in
businesses?
And how do you counselentrepreneurs now, given your
experience at Outro, and how do?
Joe (54:34):
you counsel entrepreneurs now, given your experience at
Outro.
Well, what's interesting is nowthe tides have flipped.
I was embarrassed to tell myangel investors and VCs that I
lost their money.
I've now had multiple come tome and say Bubba, I'm so sorry I
have to shut down my businessBecause I'm their angel investor
(54:55):
or I'm their VC.
And almost immediately I try torespond with you know,
so-and-so, entrepreneur, I loveyou, it's not your fault and you
know.
Please just know, talk to meabout your next business.
Let's see if we can do it again.
Because I received that kind ofgesture and it changed for me
(55:19):
kind of that mentality of who Iwas, and I want to do the same
for others.
I mean, the guy who just walkedout of the room, right, I just
I love him.
This is a fellow entrepreneur.
I love him to death and I wrotethe check to this entrepreneur
because I love him and I believein him and even though the
business didn't work, I stilllove him as an individual, like
(55:40):
he's a good human being.
And yes, 50 grand is gone andthat's part of investing and I
get it.
And now, from this side, I cansee how my investors felt when
mine didn't work and it hashealed a part of me because I
know that they're just like hey,you know what.
You win some, you lose some.
I was hoping, but I get it andit's okay.
(56:03):
So I don't know.
I feel like as youngentrepreneurs, if you're
listening to this, don't getdiscouraged about not starting
because of failure.
I think that's where mostentrepreneurs end up is, they
have these ideas, they thinkthey're genius ideas and then
they never execute.
Execution is really the key tosuccess.
(56:24):
You may want to fail fasterthough, and uh, that the concept
of failing fast they teach intech stars.
Fail fast so that you canessentially pivot or iterate and
you know and change to findwhat might work, the faster that
you can make those iterations.
And Sam Altman, the founder ofopen AI, who also led Y
(56:48):
Combinator for a long time, hesays the companies who iterate
the fastest will have the mostsuccess.
If you're, you know, uploadingyour new software every month
because that's your like, youruh cadence to go live, and
another company is doing everytwo or three days, think of how
many iterations they get overyou and those companies will see
(57:10):
more success.
So I would look at you in theeye and say still.
Go for that idea, but fail fast.
Don't draw out the process totake two or three years.
Try to find out as fast as youpossibly can if it's a viable
idea or not.
That means don't talk to yourmom or your grandma or your
(57:30):
aunts and uncles.
Go talk to random strangers.
Give them the product or letthem use the tool.
Or even, if you don't even haveit built, go try and pre-sell
whatever you're going to do andsee if people are willing to do
it, before you go and spendyears and years of your life on
something you may not know theywant.
(57:50):
I'm Bubba Page.
I'm the founder of Outrocom,the company that failed.
Raised venture capital, spenttwo and a half years of blood,
sweat and tears.
We had to shut it down.
But don't get down, because youcan do it over and over again
and at some point that successwill come.
So keep at it.
Bubba (58:08):
Thanks for tuning in to the Real F Word.
The Real F Word is failure, andremember that failure is a
stepping stone, it's not just astumbling block.
Join us next time as wecontinue to explore the journey
of resilience and growth,without ignoring the true costs
personally, professionally andfinancially that comes with
failure.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep embracing the real stories
of entrepreneurship.
(58:29):
See you next time.
I felt that I was a failure personally because I had tied
myself and my reputation to thebusiness so that when the
business didn't work out, then Ilooked at me and said, well
then I'm something's wrong withme.
Bubba (00:13):
Welcome to the Real F Word, welcome back to the Real F
Word podcast, and I'm soexcited to have Bubba Page here.
Bubba is a great friend of mine.
In fact, we were just talking,we couldn't scroll back far
enough it was probably 2008.
In fact, I knew Bubba beforepeople called him Bubba.
(00:34):
That's true, right, he wasstill going by his given name
and not Bubba.
But Bubba is a successfulentrepreneur but also has felt
the sting of defeat, and we'regoing to talk about that today.
And the thing that's interesting, bubba, about this approach and
you know this well because Iremember the two of us sitting
down for lunch after I hadfailed in one of my startups in
(00:57):
Colorado and I shared a lot withyou.
I shared how painful it was andI was really still trying to
process all of that and and youhad a different experience, but
one that where the company thatyou had invested in and had
raised money for and had builtand built the team and had some
early traction, didn't reallyreach its potential and failed.
(01:17):
And we I remember us talkingabout talking about this and
specifically, I don't know ifyou remember we were going to
start a club called the FailClub and in order to be a member
of the Fail Club you had like amillion bucks or more.
Right, we said, if you've raisedand lost a million dollars or
more, you can be a member of theclub.
Joe (01:35):
But if you've just had success, I know right.
Bubba (01:38):
So maybe we should launch the Fail Club right Alongside
the Real F Word podcast.
So welcome and thank you somuch for being here.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Joe (01:46):
There's so much history.
You know there's a song by BenRector called Old Friends.
Have you heard of this?
It's like one of my favoritesongs.
If you haven't heard it, golisten to it.
It's amazing.
You are one of those oldfriends.
Bubba (01:58):
I know, and that's why one of my first calls was to
Bubba.
As we were thinking about thispodcast and launching the real F
word, I thought I want to havethis conversation again with
Bubba, because I know thatyou'll be unfiltered about the
experience and we certainly.
You have a lot of success to.
That validates yourcapabilities as an entrepreneur.
(02:19):
But today we don't talk aboutany of that.
We don't talk about any of thesuccess.
We're just going to talk aboutyour experience building outro
and I want you to just sharethat story.
In fact, I remember we met inBoulder, colorado, when I lived
in Denver, when you were thereat Techstars, and there's
probably a little bit of aprecursor to that.
So tell me the story of outro.
(02:39):
Why did you start it?
How much money did you raise?
What was the vision for thebusiness?
Joe (02:44):
all right, so let's, uh, let's, start at the beginning.
So I was running a companycalled launch leads, so this
gives you an idea.
Started in 2009, an outsourcedb2b appointment setting company.
You would call them today ssdrs or bdrs.
Um, that's kind of what theterminology is today
(03:06):
Service-based company,bootstrapped.
You know, just cash flowingbusiness, service business.
I had read the book by ClaytonChristensen, the Innovator's
Dilemma and I was, and I thoughtto myself, okay, this, possibly
this business won't exist inthe future, and so what is the
next version of what I'm doingand how can I be the one to
(03:29):
build?
That was the first kind of idea, but I put that on the shelf.
I just kind of put it on theshelf.
I remember reading in magazinesand thinking, oh my gosh, look
at all these venture-backedstartups.
They're getting huge multiplesat the time and I'm doing a
service-based company and I'mstarting to realize that my
multiple on EBITDA to exit wasquite low.
(03:52):
You know, maybe it was, youknow, one to three X EBITDA, or
three to five X if you're really, really cranking, and some of
these tech companies weregetting 10 plus X multiples and
I thought, oh my gosh, I got toget into tech Like this is where
I got to go.
So, with the, with the kind ofthe idea of morphing this
business into something thatcould continue for a long time
(04:13):
and the desire of I want tolearn venture capital, I want to
understand that world and Iwould love to have the multiples
of software company Um, that'skind of where the idea came.
I didn't do anything about it,though, until I went to a Google
startup weekend, and thisGoogle startup weekend
essentially was a competitionwhere you had I don't know a
(04:34):
hundred plus people there.
You spent Friday, saturday,just that's it just Friday and
Saturday working on a business.
You had to.
Everybody could pitch abusiness, and it was like 60
seconds to pitch, and I camethere.
I was asked to be there as amentor, so I went there to
mentor other entrepreneurs, andthen when they said anybody can
pitch the idea, I was like, well, I mean, I got an idea, maybe
(04:57):
I'll pitch.
So I ended up pitching thisconcept.
At the time it was called QuotaDeck.
I didn't have a name for it atthe time, but we just came up
with QuotaDeck because we weregoing to help people fulfill
their quotas, and the ideabehind it at the time was this
1099 sales rep that could repmultiple technology companies at
(05:20):
once who were targeting thesame demographic.
So if you were targeting CMOs,you might have five to 10
companies that you could sell tothat same CMO, because a lot of
it is based on the relationshipand the hardest part is getting
in the door, setting anappointment, getting the
decision maker Anyway, probablytoo much info on the actual
product, but we ended up winning.
(05:41):
So we won that competition andthey went to the national.
So that was like the Utahstartup weekend and then we got
invited to pitch at the nationalcompetition.
Didn't win the nationalcompetition, but ended up
applying to tech stars.
I would call it the, you know,number two accelerator in the
country.
Um, y Combinator is what mostpeople know about, and so in
(06:04):
2014, I got, uh, invited to cometo the Boulder headquarters of
Techstars.
I was one of the earliest Utahcompanies to ever be accepted
into Techstars.
I tried Y Combinator and didn'tmake it, got through the
interviews, but this idea behindstarting the software company
(06:25):
became really, really excitingand the more I talked about it
to people, the more excitedpeople would get.
And it was.
It was like it was on fire, itwas.
It was downhill, it was easy.
The ball had so much momentum,the stone, whatever you want to
call it and things just came.
(06:45):
I mean, I only had a couplemeetings with investors.
First check came and I'm likeoh my gosh, is this what?
Raising venture capital?
Bubba (06:52):
is like Too easy.
Joe (06:54):
It's not.
I just got really lucky.
But I think one of the reasonsI was able to raise capital so
easily was that I had almost adecade of industry experience.
Was that I had almost a decadeof industry experience and
specifically I had clients thatwere the VC's portfolio
companies, so they had alreadyknown my name, they had seen me
(07:14):
around, they had heard of whatI've done in that similar
industry, and so when I came tothem with this tech idea, they
were like hey, this is a repeatfounder.
He knows the industry, he knowswhat's coming, he's done it
before and he's got a profitablebusiness already.
Let's give him a shot.
What could go wrong?
And he's accepted into thisprestigious tech stars.
Bubba (07:34):
What could go wrong?
Joe (07:35):
What could go wrong?
So they wrote the first checkum Peterson Ventures Kickstart
Seed Fund.
Tech stars came in, and then asmall group out of Arizona
called Tall Wave Capital.
And then shout out to my twoangel investors, which I love to
this day.
Brent Thompson and Joe Atkin,both great entrepreneurs.
Just unbelievable entrepreneursand they saw vision.
(07:57):
They believed in me and I wasdelighted right to have them be
a part of the ride.
Went through Techstars, I endedup recruiting a CTO fractional,
fractional CTO at the time andthen it is a designer because I
didn't know how to build a techproduct.
So I had a CTO and a designer,so I had the you know back and
(08:20):
front end and then I was abusiness guy and I ended up
getting another person to comeon board who helped us, kind of
from a marketing and salesy typeposition.
Anyway, three to four months in, that's when we got to see each
other.
The Techstars experience wasunreal.
I learned so much the network,the connections If you could
(08:45):
ever go through an accelerator,I think it's hugely valuable.
Um, we ended up raising morecapital through that process.
Um, cause it was first startedat like 400 and we ended up with
like 1.25.
It was our total raise.
So not a ton, but for a firsttime you know fundraiser.
That was pretty cool.
Bubba (09:06):
Yeah, but for a first time you know fundraiser.
That was pretty cool.
Yeah, that's your seed round.
Joe (09:08):
That's the money you need to build a product to validate
in the market do a little bit ofyeah sales and marketing right
so we end up going to market andstarting to pull up, get on
clients and the idea.
So it morphed.
Like most startups do it.
We pivoted from this 1099salesperson idea to becoming
more of a referral automationplatform for our sales referrals
and hiring referrals.
And as we built out thetechnology, we would have our
(09:34):
networks.
Like I would upload my linkedinnetwork into the system.
It would the algorithm, the ai.
Bubba (09:41):
I remember doing this oh, yeah, yeah we because it was
easy back in the day.
Joe (09:42):
I remember doing this.
Oh yeah, because it was easyback in the day.
You could download yourLinkedIn contacts easily, upload
the entire CSV, have all of thedata and then our algorithms
would categorize who iseverybody and how they're
connected, so that when, let'ssay, joe, you came to me and
said I wanted to talk to youknow, you wanted to talk to more
CEOs.
Well, in my network I had ahundred CEOs.
It would prompt me within theplatform to say hey, bubba, you
(10:09):
could introduce Joe to a hundredpeople.
Which ones do you feelcomfortable introducing to Joe?
And and then I would justselect well, out of those
hundred, I probably would feelcomfortable with these, like 10
or 15.
And then it would automaticallycreate this double opt-in intro
.
That's what we called it.
So you, you had opted in, I hadopted in, and then I was asking
this person, um, if they wouldbe interested in introduction.
(10:31):
Long story short, we startedgetting checks from clients.
So we had this, this.
We had real revenue coming in.
I think at some.
At one point we had 250 grandin revenue, which was this super
positive like we're doing this,a great signal People are
paying for your product, peopleare paying for the product.
They want the product.
We've built the product.
(10:52):
The introductions are working,meaning the algorithms, the AI
back in the day, before AI was athing was working.
It was finding the right people, we were getting making
connections happen.
But we couldn't make enoughconnections happen.
So the companies had prepaid,essentially for credit on the
system.
(11:12):
Oh, interesting, so you know thedomos of the world or a plural
site or a?
You know these tech companies.
They wanted these salesintroductions.
So they'd be like, yeah, here's, you know 20 grand, go give me
as many many you know of thesereferrals as you can, and as
they would get the referrals itwould like deduct out of their
thing.
Well, we started makingintroductions, but nowhere near
(11:35):
as fast as we needed.
So we really worked hard on theui and the ux, like what's
wrong?
Yeah, is it the product that'swrong?
What's the?
What's the psychology behindpeople making introductions?
And it was this deep,interesting dive.
I read this book called umpredictably irrational, which
I'd highly recommend for anytechnical co-founders.
(11:57):
Um, it is really fascinatingthat human beings are
essentially predictablyirrational and it walks through
a million scenarios ofscientific evidence.
And it walks through a millionscenarios of scientific evidence
and it helps you to build abetter product.
Bubba (12:09):
I remember listening to so many books on ui ux because
for some reason we just couldnot people were male they
weren't making the referrals,they weren't making enough okay,
we had this, we had a baseline,so they have this credit 20,000
bucks and you're just chippingaway and you couldn't fulfill.
Joe (12:28):
So that was the first problem.
Bubba (12:30):
So tell me about that moment where you're like, uh-oh,
I have a problem.
What was the signal that youwere seeing it?
Joe (12:35):
was like oh, it just must be a UI UX issue.
So, team, let's go, let'schange it up.
Bubba (12:39):
Let's make it better.
Let's make it better.
Joe (12:40):
Let's make it this.
Oh yeah, of course you problemsolve.
That's what you do as anentrepreneur, right?
So it was never like we'rescrewed.
It was like, oh, let's just fixit, change this, let's change
that, let's test this A, b, that.
And we just could not get thevolume of introductions to be
happening fast enough at thatlevel.
And I think the concept ofpeople uploading their contacts
(13:02):
like we had ended up having twoto three million contacts
uploaded in the system.
So that wasn't even the problem.
It was people actuallyfollowing through and just
clicking a box saying, yes, I amhappy to introduce these people
.
It was you were facilitatingthe entire introduction.
They just had to opt in that'sall they had to do is just check
the box I.
I agree you're drafting theemail or the linkedin intro and
(13:25):
a whole bit and we thought thatmaybe there was something off
with, like, their incentive,like what is their incentive to
make an introduction?
And at first it was like, well,it's goodwill, you're making
introductions to them becauseyour people will make
introductions for you.
And they're like, well, do wedo we need to add cash and a
cash incentive.
And I'm like, well, there'spros and cons of cash incentives
.
Because then there's like thismoney exchange and does that
(13:45):
change the vibe?
So we just kept testing,testing, testing, testing,
testing to try and get this towork.
And then I think we weren't theonly companies trying to
leverage linkedin's uh api andour contacts and they shut all
of their api down.
Now they didn't.
They couldn't shut it down sothat you could never get your
contacts, but they made it amiserable experience.
(14:07):
Today, if you download yourLinkedIn contacts, for example,
I have 23,000 followers onLinkedIn.
If I downloaded I did, Idownloaded my contacts I got 500
emails.
That's it from 23,000.
So they are not willing toshare everybody's and people
have the right to not opt in toshare with their contacts.
(14:28):
That back in the day you hadeverything.
So two things they first shutoff the API, which was
essentially how we got all ofour data was through LinkedIn.
So one error for sure was thatwe relied on this single,
singular platform to be our datasource, was that we relied on
this singular platform to be ourdata source.
So when that happened, we'relike, okay, well, let's jump to
(14:48):
Google Contacts.
And so we were trying to figureout how to do Google Contacts.
but Google Contacts were likeyour grandma and your aunt and
uncle, and it wasn't thebusiness people that we needed,
nor did it have the form-filledpieces in it.
Bubba (15:06):
So how far into the business are you at this point?
So we are in Like a year or two.
Joe (15:10):
We are in a year and a half by this point, because we had
this traction, early traction.
Yeah, we got early traction,which gave us this almost a
false positive.
And so this false positive,like we're telling everybody,
like we're making it happen Look, we got revenue, we're making
intros, it's happening.
And then it was about a yearand a half-ish that LinkedIn
(15:31):
shut everybody off.
Bubba (15:32):
But even before LinkedIn shut it down there were still
signals, there wasn't enoughvelocity in the introductions
right To sustain business.
Joe (15:39):
Yeah, so that velocity, but I never saw that as the issue.
I really never did because Ijust thought that could be
solvable.
Ux issue yeah, Do we need anapp?
Is it an app issue?
Do we need push notifications?
Is it because back in the dayit was just a laptop, you know
desktop functionality, so thatwasn't even what we thought was
a problem.
And so, as we continued to testand test and test, and then I
(16:03):
ended up recruiting, let's sayhere a year into it, my
co-founder, Dave Oldham.
Loved working with him, Like itwas just so much fun, and then
brought on, like Zach Barney onthe sales side and some other
amazing people how big was theteam at its height.
Oh geez I mean we only had six,I think at our height, Still
small.
(16:23):
But we were hiring because wehad this false positive, we had
revenue.
Bubba (16:27):
Were you guys paying yourself from the money you
raised?
We?
Joe (16:29):
had paid ourselves.
Yeah, we had paid ourselves avery small percentage of what
would normally be a salary.
But then the second we let'ssee here we were probably a year
and a half into it is when westopped paying Dave and I
stopped taking a paycheck and wemade that choice to keep the
payroll going.
Bubba (16:49):
How much cash did you have in the bank at this point?
Probably at that point, maybeonly 250 grand or something like
that, so your cash balance isdwindling.
Joe (16:58):
We were extremely efficient , like cash efficient, so that
could last us almost a year.
You weren't burning a lot ofcash.
Bubba (17:04):
No, we were not burning it.
Joe (17:05):
I mean, we worked out of my basement office, but it was
literally.
They'd come to my house, walkinto the basement and we were
working out of a room, um, andit what?
Nobody was getting paid a ton,uh, but we were generous with
with equity and things like that, and just let's talk about
equity.
Bubba (17:24):
So when you went out and raised money from these great
investors, right, who we bothrespect, what was the vision
that you painted for them?
What did you think the outcomecould be?
The financial outcome could beif you guys continue to execute
over five or six or seven years,I mean with the original
concept, without even that falsepositive of revenue.
Joe (17:44):
They told me they were like Bubba.
This is a binary outcome.
You will be the biggest thingout there, competing with
LinkedIn potentially, or you'llbe nothing, like there were and
I was like okay those are toughwords.
Bubba (17:57):
now right, give it a shot .
Yeah, you have to compete witha multi-billion dollar company
like.
Joe (18:02):
LinkedIn, and and I never thought that we would
necessarily compete, I thoughtwe would partner, I thought we'd
get acquired by, I thoughtthat's maybe the direction we
were going to go.
So yeah, but it was a buy-in,it was a billion dollars or bust
right.
Bubba (18:15):
That was what everyone thought.
That's what you thought.
You thought listen, this goeswell, this is my last thing.
Yeah right and I'll retire andclimb out Everest.
But but if it doesn't work out,it was going to be a bust.
Yeah, so you, you had your eyeswide open going into it oh for
sure this was a little bit of aswing for the fences type.
Joe (18:32):
Opportunity 100 and I was okay with that because I had
built this steady cash flowbusiness, profitable business
services, services business.
That was great and it wassteadily growing ink five or
let's say ink 5,000, like threeyears in a row.
I had hired a ceo to run it dayto day and he was doing a great
job I had given him equity andsalary.
Bubba (18:50):
Gave you offered the ceo gig to me once I did remember
that.
Joe (18:53):
oh yeah, I wanted you to do it.
I probably should have.
I don't know who knows.
Everything happened for areason, but um, but yeah it.
It was an interesting vibe,because I think I'm a glass half
full type of a person alwayshave been, so, as we would come
into problems, I would just sitdown and how do you fix it, how
do you solve it?
(19:14):
That's just what you do andthat's how I always approach
everything.
And then I believe, as a salesoriented entrepreneur, sales and
revenue solve most problems.
Sure, it was, is my belief, Istill is my belief.
Most problems, though not allproblems.
And so I just thought well,let's just sell to get ahead of
(19:35):
it.
So I brought in moresalespeople and we sell Brute
force.
Bubba (19:39):
Just sell more clients.
Joe (19:42):
But the reality is that was the easy part and we didn't
know that.
So we were getting these,because they all wanted what we
had, what we were promising theywanted.
They wanted more sales leads,they wanted more hiring
referrals you had identified apain.
Bubba (19:56):
You had identified a clear need we had nailed the
pain for sure, the messagemarket fit was like spot on
right and that's evidenced bythe frictionless sales process.
But the delivery right, youcouldn't deliver on the brand
promise.
Is that Totally?
Joe (20:10):
That's what happened and and and now that I can look back
, so, so we ended up shutting itdown as about two and a half
years into it.
Okay, so you're two and a halfyears in, let's.
So yeah, so we had to let peoplego at like year two.
Okay, tell me about that.
Oh, so painful.
Don't get me wrong.
I've hired and fired 200 pluspeople.
In my career I had laid peopleoff.
It was years earlier.
(20:30):
We had, like, in our previousbusiness I had like six of our
biggest clients all quit at thesame time and so we had to lay
people off.
But for whatever reason, thisone, it just it stung so deep.
Family, right Like this, is avery small group.
These are people that Irespected, that I loved that.
(20:51):
We saw the vision together andwe were seeing the success
happen together, and so when itstopped, we were all just
bewildered Like why?
Why is this not working?
How come we can't change the UIUX well enough to get people to
do it?
Change the UI UX well enough toget people to do it?
(21:12):
So I think all of us were inthis pondering about why, why?
How did this not work?
I remember we'd go to ourinvestors and I tried to keep
our investors up to speed thewhole time, like hey, look,
we're struggling, we found this,this is great, but this isn't
working.
Hey, we did this.
It's awesome, this thing isn'tstill working here.
We got revenue, but we'restruck.
And then LinkedIn, oh my gosh.
And then when we came to themand we had probably six months
(21:36):
of runway left.
Six months of runway with noteam, just to keep operations
going and keep the site up, andno salaries or anything like
that.
We went to the, the investors,like, look, we have, like we
have these five tests that wecould do and if we do these five
tests, there's a chance that wecould, we could hit it and it
(21:59):
could succeed.
But I can't.
I was honest.
I said, look, but I can'tpromise.
So you had five bets, five bets.
But if we had these five betsthen we would need a little bit
extra runway.
How much more capital?
Like another 250 grand?
Okay, and be like, okay, if wehad these five bets, I think we
could do it and I think there'sa chance we can hit it.
But I won't and I can'tguarantee that.
(22:21):
I'm going to be honest with you, like I just don't know.
And they and they looked at mein the eye and they were like,
look, bubba, we love you, wethink this idea is great, but I
don't think it's the right timeto put more capital into it.
And I remember the dagger thatjust like felt in my soul
because you knew that was itwhen they said yeah, when they
were like we're done, we're notgoing to put more cap.
(22:43):
Yeah and I knew that the signalbehind my investors, who had
invested in us the whole way, ifI were to go try to raise
additional capital outside, withthem saying no, very, very,
very small chances.
So they essentially said, look,try and find a soft landing.
And I was like, well, I'venever done that before.
Bubba (23:04):
But I'm a sales-.
Is there such a thing?
Yeah, I'm a sales-orientedentrepreneur.
Joe (23:07):
Let me see if I can do this .
So I essentially spent the nextsix months solely trying to
generate a buyer for the assets,for the connections, for the
user base, whatever.
And I found that it is a lotharder to sell a business than
(23:28):
to be acquired.
Those two are very differentthings.
For sure, when you have peopleapproaching you to get acquired
versus you pitching yourbusiness, it is very.
I won't say that it's notimpossible, but I failed.
I failed at getting that doneand I worked.
Bubba (23:46):
How many conversations did you have with potential
buyers?
Oh, I probably have this.
Joe (23:49):
I probably still have well, maybe not on the spreadsheet,
but at least 150 people.
Bubba (23:55):
Anyone that could benefit from the product or the
traction or the technology, likeyou were just trying I'd even
talk to like small PE firmsabout like.
Joe (24:03):
Could you wrap this?
Bubba (24:04):
in or roll this in, roll it up.
And did anyone get serious inthe?
Joe (24:08):
yeah, oh, yeah, yeah so we had a funnel and you know, went
through the funnel and landedwith like seven like truly
interested buyers and I thought,hey, this is seven, like we
could do a little bidding, maybewe can actually get something
real out of this.
Bubba (24:21):
Um, and essentially in the end all of them were like
nah, we're gonna pass, so we'repass when you were down to the
last one, because I've been inthis situation right when, like,
my only reasonably positiveoutcome would be to sell the
asset or sell the business, andI remember like the moment that
the last potential acquirer cameand said, hey, in fact, this
(24:46):
other business it was the LATimes, oh my gosh who had their
own set of issues, and they justlike, hey, we looked at it and
I knew, like the moment theysaid no, like it was like the
domino, and then everything thathappened after was super
painful.
What was that moment?
Do you remember the lastpotential acquirer?
When they told you like hey,we're not going to do it.
Joe (25:06):
I don't remember the name of them, but I do remember
getting off the phone and likelooking at Dave, who he and I
have now been working for a longtime without any pay and with
the hope and dream of, like,making this work, and uh, and I
do believe there was, there wasquite a few months where even I
even told Dave, like look, youdon't, you don't need to work,
go find your next thing, I'lljust try and sell it.
(25:27):
But I remember calling him upand just saying, look, dude, I
don't think this is going tohappen, like I really I just
don't think there's anyone outthere.
And LinkedIn was still closeddown.
So, like we didn't necessarilyhave a solution for some of the
problems that we had facedalready.
The problems that we had facedalready, um, but I, I personally
(25:53):
went into what I think was myfirst level of depression and
anxiety was in that moment of mylife where, uh, I felt like and
this is a big caveat I wantpeople to hear I felt that I was
a failure personally, because Ihad tied myself and my
reputation to the business, sothat, so that when the business
didn't work out, then I lookedat me and said, well then, I'm
(26:15):
something's wrong with me.
And it was incredible becausesome of these investors I didn't
recognize it at the time, butthey would set me down and be
like, look, bubba, we know it'snot your fault Like you worked
incredibly hard, we you were,you kept us up to date on
everything and if you were tostart a new company, we'd back
(26:38):
you again.
And I remember when I when Iheard that it didn't fully
penetrate because I was so downon myself.
But now that I look in the pastI can see that that was like
this, this, um, glowing light,that although it didn't
penetrate at the time, it grewover time and it helped me to
rebuild some of that confidence.
(26:59):
But it took years to rebuildconfidence, which is
embarrassing, to say the least.
But I remember the depths ofdepression was probably a six
month timeframe where I justlike, wasn't myself.
It was hard on my marriage, itwas hard on my outside
relationships, my careerbasically stopped, um, and I
(27:22):
ended up becoming a prepper andI started prepping and, uh, I
kind of had this religiousawakening and I started
exercising more, like it wasfrom.
I started putting in some goodpriorities into my life that I
can now look back and say thatI'm grateful for.
I was in the depths of hell,for sure, in that context I've
(27:49):
since been through harder things, but that was extremely
difficult at the time and theworst was my friends, the angel
investors to have to go to themand say I don't have your money
and I literally cannot returnyou any capital because we tried
for so long thinking there washope to sell, hope to sell, hope
(28:11):
to sell.
Bubba (28:12):
Yeah, you trusted me, Like I had that experience right
.
Joe (28:15):
Oh yeah.
Bubba (28:16):
And it is incredibly painful to be able to just
acknowledge like I dideverything I could, but there's
not going to be a dime back fromthat money that you invested
and there's really nothing.
Sometimes you feel like there'snothing to show for a dime back
from that money that youinvested and there's really
nothing.
Sometimes you feel like there'snothing to show for it.
Joe (28:31):
Oh yeah, and you're just like.
I worked my tail off for almostthree years and I've got
nothing to show for it.
How am I going to pay?
Bubba (28:36):
back my family for all the time and sacrifice?
How am I going to pay back myinvestors who trusted me?
Right, and you're a steward ofthis capital.
And then what's up?
Phil fans, you know, as we'velistened to so many guests on
this podcast, that the road tosuccess is often paved with
failure, with a lot ofchallenges and even full-on face
(28:59):
plants.
But there's a thing that youcould do to help skip some of
those bumps and bruises, andthat's really where the
consultants at Amplio come in.
See, amplio offers fractionalexecutives in finance, marketing
and HR, and these are peoplewho've experienced a lot.
They've been in the trenches,they've built businesses,
they've failed.
But here's the kicker They'velearned from those failures and
(29:23):
now they're applying all thatwisdom to your business to
support you.
So you don't have to learn thehard way.
I mean, think about it.
Instead of stumbling around inthe dark and hoping you don't
hit the wall, you could bringsomeone in who's already mapped
out that room right.
Amplio consultants and expertshave worked with and for
numerous companies of all sizesand they've gathered insights on
(29:43):
what works and where to focusand how to actually grow your
business efficiently.
So while we embrace failure onthis podcast, there is no rule
that says you have to fail ateverything yourself.
So check out Amplio and see howtheir fractional executives can
help your business move forwardand avoid those painful
learning curves.
Sometimes the smartest move islearning from someone else's
(30:06):
failure.
Visit Ampliocom to learn more.
Tell me, like you used the worddepression and like I just want
to talk about that for a minute, Like you are a really
optimistic person.
You're a you said it earlieryou're a glass half full person,
and I know this about you,bubba.
Why do you think a failedstartup, which is such a common
outcome, had that type ofemotional impact for?
Joe (30:30):
you.
Well, I think there was probablysome insecurities that I had
not addressed from even mychildhood and I know this goes
like way back, but we all haveinsecurities.
I've been learning a lot aboutthem in the recent year and, and
I think our childhood woundsand I'm not talking about like
(30:51):
big T trauma, but like little Ttrauma.
My parents were amazing.
They were phenomenal.
I had great siblings.
What a wonderful upbringing Ihad.
But we all have our issues ofour upbringing and I think I was
a black sheep of the family.
I have doctors, dentists,lawyers.
I'm the only entrepreneur.
(31:11):
I remember, you know, incollege getting involved in my
first startup, borrowing fivegrand from my parents to invest
in my startup to earn equity andand I knew that they didn't
believe in it they were justlike donating that money knowing
that it would never come back.
And when I did pay them back,plus interest because I was able
to sell my ownership, I hadthis pride of see.
(31:36):
I'm going to show you that Ican do this.
Well, why did I have a chip onmy shoulder?
I'm the youngest child, I wasalways the baby and I was this
black sheep.
I never got the scholarshipslike my siblings did.
I didn't get the straight A's,like my siblings did.
I did well in sports, so thatwas kind of where I found myself
(32:01):
was like a sports person.
But if you think deeply enoughabout us as adults, a lot of who
we are and what we've become isbecause of our childhood
upbringing.
All of it and and this chip onmy shoulder is what got me to
start my next business.
So, you know, from that littlecollege business to then doing
the one after Junto Partners,which you and I did together in
(32:21):
2008.
And in 2009, when I started, Iwas like no, I'm going to go do
this.
I was oblivious and naive towhat the outcome could be.
But it worked and it took me afew years to get it stable, but
then it it really grew.
And you know, earning a half amillion dollars a year as a
salary is not bad for a 20something year old.
And so I look back at, likerunning this venture-backed
(32:43):
startup, the opportunity costsof losing that type of salary.
Uh, you know, for two and ahalf years.
You know for two and a halfyears that adds up, and so you
know that's me investing intothat other startup.
Anyway, the thing that I wantpeople to realize is that if
your business fails and you'vetried everything that you can in
(33:07):
your power to do and work ashard as you possibly can, know
that you personally are not afailure, that it was the
business that failed.
And if you can understand thatit was the business that failed
and the faster you can get backup and keep going and start
something else, even if thatstart something else means you
go get a job there's nothingwrong with that.
(33:29):
But the sooner you get back onyour feet, dust yourself off and
get back in, the better you'llbe off.
I think I was in a positionwhere I didn't have to go back
to work right away, and so Itook this time and it was
healing for me and I feel likethere was.
(33:50):
You know, exercise and healthwas a really important part.
God was a huge element for it.
I I have, I'm always been a Godfearing person, a faith based
person, but I hadn't.
I hadn't been reborn yet, Ihadn't had an awakening yet.
And now I look back and I say Ican see that God used this
(34:12):
experience for me to wake me upto the reality of my
circumstances and for me torecognize that life wasn't just
about being on cover ofmagazines, thousands of
employees and hundreds ofmillions of dollars.
That's what he needed me tolearn.
(34:32):
Dollars, that's what he neededme to learn.
And even though I felt inspiredto begin the business in the
first place, I felt like Godtold me to start the business
and it didn't work.
You'd think like, well, why God?
You told me to do it, but itdidn't work.
What the heck?
And?
Um, I think I the way I look atit now is I see the lessons I
(34:55):
needed to learn personally, andhe used this experience to
humble me, to bring me to trustin him more and to dedicate more
of my life to him, and so thatyear 2016-17, was a year that I
kind of turned my own personalself around.
2017 was a year that I kind ofturned my own personal self
(35:16):
around, really rededicatedmyself to God and church and
scripture study and trying tocleanse myself and become a
better person.
I don't think I would havegotten to that point without
this level of failure andthere's opposition in all things
we're taught.
So I had this horrificexperience and then I was
(35:40):
brought into this light and andI just see God using these
experiences to teach me what Iwas supposed to learn and since
then it's been almost a you knowclose, what is it?
Seven years, eight years.
Since then it's been almost ayou know close, what is it?
Seven years, eight years.
I can see that pattern thatI've still failed on other
(36:00):
things in life and in work,whatever it is, and he's
leveraging these experiences toteach me what I need to learn.
And I just think there's a lotgoing back to our childhood
thing.
Sorry, I got off tangent.
I think if we can start torecognize our relationships with
our mother and our father andhow.
There's a book called Attached.
(36:21):
I would highly recommend it.
It talks about attachmentstyles and theory around
attachment, being anxious oravoidant and wanting to be
secure.
There's so much healing thatcan be had for all adults if we
understood why we are and why weact the way we do.
(36:42):
Anyway, there's a whole othertangent there.
Bubba (36:44):
So how long did it take you?
I love that you've shared someof the coping mechanisms right,
what you had to kind of rely onas you were going through this
really dark period of your life,and I love that physical
fitness and faith.
I think you talked aboutbecoming a prepper.
That's an interesting twist,but how long did it really take
(37:05):
you to build?
Your confidence and get readyfor the next, the next venture,
the next big project you know Ihate to admit this, but like so,
2017, we're in 2024.
Joe (37:26):
Um, seven years later, I'm still working on it Like there's
elements of my confidence thathave been shattered and and I
ended up, you know, going fromthat business that didn't work
out and, uh, taking some timeoff prepping.
And then I joined my the themom of my kids with her business
(37:52):
and started building that andit was a soft landing for me.
It was working, we were growing, I felt like I was utilizing my
skills properly and building ateam and systems and processes,
but I essentially decided to putmy career on hold because I had
a spouse that wanted to grow Athriving business.
Bubba (38:15):
Yeah.
Joe (38:16):
I wanted to grow and do her goals and passions Well.
She had supported me for 10years, so of course I would
support why not?
But what I didn't recognize isthat when I did that, I didn't
fully overcome my fears.
Right, I didn't fully overcomemy fears Right and although we
(38:37):
grew and were very profitableand had plenty of success in
those entities, I thinkpersonally I limited myself.
Never restored your confidence.
Uh-huh, and it was about a yearand a half ago, two years ago,
that it was time to not do thatbusiness together anymore.
(38:58):
And and that's when I was like,okay, what am I going to do?
Yeah, what am I going to do?
I need to rebuild myself, andyou and I talked early, early on
about it, and it took me waylonger than it should have to
figure out what I was going todo.
I just wanted to be socalculated because of the fear
of failure.
Bubba (39:18):
Again, I feel the same way, right like you.
You just want to make sure thatyou don't get yourself into
that spot again because of thecost, the emotional and mental
health tax that comes withentrepreneurship generally, and
especially when it doesn't golike you had planned.
I think, as a.
Joe (39:36):
The younger you are, I highly recommend starting
businesses.
The younger you are, I knowyou're going to think well, I
don't have an experience, I'mnot an expert in something, I
I'm naive, and it's like youknow what.
Those are all awesomecharacteristics because the more
you've been around the block,the more you know it will most
likely fail.
Because the more you've beenaround the block, the more you
know it will most likely fail,and because they usually do
(39:57):
Businesses.
What is the?
You know?
I don't even know what thepercentage is anymore, but a lot
.
Bubba (40:02):
It's the most probable outcome of every startup, right,
but we never have thisconversation the way we're
having it today, and Iappreciate your openness and
vulnerability like I just want,like what's the?
When you think back to outroand like what would you do
different?
Because it's easy to ascribe afailure to something outside of
our control yeah we talk a lotabout this like it's the market,
(40:24):
it's capital, it's competition,it's linkedin, the linkedin api
right like there's no way Icould like rebound after that.
But what did you do wrong?
Like when you've reflected onthat, like what are the two or
three lessons that you want toensure that you never make those
decisions or those mistakesagain?
Joe (40:43):
Let's see.
I think one of them is Iprobably hired, hired too soon.
I think the false positivesgave me this hope and, being a
sales driven entrepreneur, wherethat is part of my expertise,
that is something I knew how todo Hire sales people, build a
team, hire sales, go, go go.
I think we did that way toosoon, now that I look at it,
(41:06):
because that could have extendedrunway.
Bubba (41:09):
There were probably three hires that we shouldn't have
had, so you would have justcontinued founder-led sales for
a longer period of time beforeyou brought in more sales people
.
Yeah, but what was so?
Joe (41:20):
interesting is that I did that in part because I needed to
go raise additional capital.
Yeah, of course, and whenyou're raising capital, that's
like at least a half-time job.
Yeah, it's a full-time salesjob is what it is, and so my
ability to close more sales waslimited.
Because I was raising capital,so I brought in sales people to
continue that.
Bubba (41:39):
But if you would have spent the same amount of time
selling the product intocustomers, you might have been
able to solve some of yourproblem with revenue versus with
outside capital yeah, so I'dsay that was a mistake for sure.
Joe (41:51):
um, being reliant on a single entity like a LinkedIn,
that was a problem, that was amistake.
We just never thought ever thatthey would ever shut down our.
Api, why it's our personal likeso building?
You know a lot of people buildlike an Instagram thing.
It's like okay, be aware theymay just shut you off one day.
Bubba (42:14):
We'll do whatever they want, whenever they want, with
complete disregard for yourstartup.
Joe (42:18):
Yeah, totally, and there's many, many stories like that.
So be aware If you're buildingsomething that is attached
Dependent.
Dependent is the right word.
That's not the right businessmodel.
Diversify, at least outside ofjust one Another mistake.
I should have stayed healthierthroughout the process
(42:44):
physically healthier andprobably mentally healthier.
I think I was so worried and sonervous and anxious about the
business.
I think I was so worried and sonervous and anxious about the
business.
You know succeeding that I put.
You know, exercise and eatingright and sleeping right on the
back burner, um, and that wasprobably my like worst physical
(43:08):
fitness state of my life.
Bubba (43:10):
Do you think that impacted your performance?
Oh, as a leader, as a founder,I think even purely confidence.
Yeah, fitness state of my life.
Do you think that impacted your?
Joe (43:15):
performance, oh for sure.
As a leader, as a founder, Ithink even purely confidence, If
you don't like.
I love CrossFit.
It's been a really good thingfor me.
Bubba (43:21):
You look great now, thank you.
Joe (43:22):
I appreciate it, but I went working really hard.
And I think that dedication, Ithink you have a clearer mind,
you have the right chemicalsgoing through your body.
If you're eating healthierfoods, you're going to be, you
know.
I think your brain is stronger,your body's stronger, Like your
emotional well-being isstronger.
I do agree that I wasn't closeenough.
(43:43):
I should have been closer toGod through the process as well.
So, if we're like the buckstops with me, I was a founder
CEO Like the business failedbecause of me and my choices and
decisions, Sure, they'reextenuating circumstances, but,
like I accept that as a CEO,founder, I am the last straw.
And so these are things that Ibring up because, uh, you know
(44:06):
my relationship with God.
Although I was still going tochurch, I had not dedicated
myself to him Like I I believe Ishould be.
Um, and, and you know thehealth side and the family I
lived away from my family forthree and a half months and I'd
come and see them every coupleof weeks or two three weeks or
(44:28):
something and they would livehere in Salt Lake, my wife.
We had three kids.
Fourth was on the way.
That was an incrediblydifficult time, a very difficult
time.
She was supportive for me to go, but through the process it was
incredibly difficult.
Now people have to go in themilitary, people have to go on
(44:49):
job sites, people have to dothings like this.
So it's not that you can'tsucceed in doing it.
For us it was a huge blow andso I don't believe that was best
.
Bubba (45:01):
Some of those relationships were weakened
through that entrepreneurialjourney with Outro.
What would you have donedifferent?
Joe (45:10):
So, as a young entrepreneur , I had goal, goals list, very
temporally driven sure, millionsof dollars, hundreds of
employees, covers of magazines,awards that's what I desired.
That's how you were measuringyour success I was measuring my
six on that.
And I look at that now in thepast and I say because of my
(45:34):
upbringing, I felt like that wasthe only way I could prove my
worth in the world Was if Iaccomplished these things and I
became a multimillionaire and,you know, won all the awards.
Then finally, they would respectme and I, you know I, I
wouldn't be the black sheepanymore.
I didn't think that along theway, that wasn't a conscious
(45:54):
thought.
I can now look backward and say, ah, I think those are some of
my little tweaks, that I wasdoing so changing your desire.
There's nothing wrong withwanting to have financial
freedom.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
With wanting to have financialfreedom.
(46:14):
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
But I think if you put thatover the most important things
in your life, it may causeproblems.
And so I knew that going awayfrom the family was a temporary
time and I'd be back.
So for that temporary time, Ithought it'd be okay to
sacrifice from a familyperspective.
I look now and I say maybe thatwasn't the best.
Bubba (46:35):
I feel the same way.
You and I talked about this.
I spent five years working fora company in Colorado and three
of those years I lived here inSalt Lake in a condo, downtown
Denver, and I spent far too manynights in my condo in Denver
versus in my bed with my familyand at home with my family.
I think back and I've had thatsame learning that the price was
(47:00):
not worth the benefit or thereward period, even if it would
have been a massive financialoutcome.
Those are nights that I cannever get back.
And it doesn't mean we don'thave to travel sometimes.
Joe (47:13):
Of course.
Bubba (47:14):
But if I had a do-over, that's one of the things that I
would I mean six kids right here, eight kids right here we could
.
Joe (47:20):
We've done our part I think it's important to remember.
I mean young entrepreneurs.
You just, you're just grinding,you're just doing what you,
whatever, it takes rightwhatever it takes.
And there is an element of thatand then I know are VCs who will
say I will only fund people whowill do whatever it takes.
I'm not that guy.
So when I'm writing checks nowas Influenced IBC, I want to see
(47:42):
some more balance and I maymiss out on some incredible
business opportunities.
But if I can tell that thisperson loves his Lambo more than
he loves his family, that'sprobably not the right guy for
me.
Bubba (47:54):
Yeah, I don't invest in anyone with Lambos.
Joe (47:57):
That's part of my investment criteria.
If you have a Lambo and you'refunding your own business.
You're not using my money,exactly, but there are these
life principles.
So you've probably heard thisbefore, but you fill up this
glass jar with boulders and thenstones, you know, pebbles, sand
(48:17):
, water.
You put your most importantthings in your life first, and
then the rest can come out.
And so for me now you know, Iput God, I try to put God first.
That has to be my number oneright the relationship with your
spouse and your kids, yourhealth, and then work, and I
(48:39):
look at that as and there's awhole bunch of other things in
there right Service and charitythat are incredibly important,
but it's hard to think, okay,I'm going to go change the world
, I'm going to become the nextJeff Bezos or Elon Musk and have
those priorities in order, andthe honest truth is I don't need
(49:03):
or want to be the next JeffBezos or Elon Musk.
I respect them for what they'vedone and they are incredibly
genius human beings, but I wouldnot choose that for my life.
I would prefer to choose moreof a lifestyle that brings me
joy and brings me closer to myfamily.
Bubba (49:28):
I love.
Thank you so much.
There's so much wisdom thereand you've been so open and
vulnerable about like um.
What are what matters to muchwisdom there and you've been so
open and vulnerable about likeum?
What are what matters to younow and what you've learned
through that journey?
Why do you think there's suchan aversion to the word failure
Like?
Why do you think like, just, wedon't.
We know it intellectually, butwe don't say it, we don't talk
about it in unvarnished ways.
(49:50):
What do you think that is thatpride?
Joe (49:52):
Yeah for sure, a hundred percent pride.
It's, it's our inability to.
It's our insecurities.
I'm going to go back to that.
It's our insecurities.
We're sitting here in thisbusiness podcast.
You know, I know you've hadsuccesses.
I know the people who arelistening have had successes.
It's embarrassing to say Ifailed and here's all the
reasons why I'm a failure orwhat I did to make this fail.
(50:15):
It's.
It's hard to hear.
I don't.
Nobody wants to talk about itbecause it's awkward.
Bubba (50:20):
It's still does it still hurt just a little bit to talk
about outro, because it stillhurts me when I have to talk
about the specifics of a failedventure and the money that I
lost and the decisions that Imade.
Seven years later, you and Ihave both been on this similar
journey.
I'm just getting to this pointwhere I can even host a podcast
talking about failure andactually share my experiences
openly.
(50:40):
And you're right.
It's embarrassing Like we justdon't want to acknowledge it.
We want to hide from it.
Still, and I think that'swhat's so liberating, when you
and I can have a conversationand be like yep, we're failed
entrepreneurs and we're okay.
Joe (50:55):
Yeah, we're okay and we're still alive?
Bubba (50:57):
Yeah, we're still alive and we learned and we're growing
, but we did not hit the ballout of the park.
In fact, we didn't even get theball into the outfield.
Joe (51:08):
Nope, nope, it stayed at home plate.
Yep, no-transcript for me to beable to feel like I'm just
(51:36):
hopefully, you know, creepingout of this failed mentality and
thinking more positively aboutmyself, saying okay, I can do
this or I can't, and having thatpositive outlook, even though
I'm a positive person by nature.
It's been a struggle, for sure,and and it's interesting that
(51:58):
it could, you know, potentiallya decade of my life will I
attribute to feeling, havingthese types of feelings, and
it's not an overnight, like getup the next day and you're fine
and you're not going to thinkabout the failure again.
Um, and I hope not.
I think it's.
It's where you can learn themost.
Uh, people talk about that allthe time.
(52:19):
You learn more from yourfailures than you do your
successes.
We just don't talk about it.
We just don't talk about it.
And and I would suggest, ifyou're, if you're not willing to
talk about it yet, that youjournal it, that you write it
down, at least get it out.
Because I think, asentrepreneurs, when somebody
asks you, how are you doing,how's your business doing, what
do you answer oh, it's great,it's going great, doing good.
Bubba (52:41):
Yeah, it's great and you're dying inside because you
can't make payroll and we haveto watch.
We open up LinkedIn and it'spost after post about wins and
successes and raising capitaland selling businesses and
acquisitions, and it's hard tosee the reality through all of
that.
Polish and varnish.
Joe (53:01):
Yeah.
I think, realizing thateveryone's going through their
own crap, whether it'sprofessionally or personally.
Every human being is goingthrough some level of crap, some
level of hell that they have togo through, and it is part of
your plan.
It's why you're on this earth.
You have to go through it Again.
I'll go back to the oppositionand all things.
(53:23):
Know that whatever you're goingthrough right now, it is for
your good.
That's a quote, not mine.
It is for your good.
And you have to look and saywhy is this for my good?
If you're going through thisdepths of despair, look up and
ask God why?
Why is this for my good?
(53:43):
If everything that goes on inthis life is for my good, then
why?
And you may you may get someanswers.
Bubba (53:50):
One of this has been a profound story and sermon today.
I love, I love it.
Maybe we should rename thepodcast the entrepreneurial
therapy session, cause I feellike over the course of the next
several weeks is we talked tomore and more entrepreneurs and
and I hope the audience feelsthis Um, we're we're getting to
the really root of whyentrepreneurship can be so hard
(54:13):
and, um, and I just wonder howthis experience for you has
shaped the way that you investas a venture capitalist, like
now that you've had a failure orsome like.
Does that change the way youanalyze businesses or invest in
businesses?
And how do you counselentrepreneurs now, given your
experience at Outro, and how do?
Joe (54:34):
you counsel entrepreneurs now, given your experience at
Outro.
Well, what's interesting is nowthe tides have flipped.
I was embarrassed to tell myangel investors and VCs that I
lost their money.
I've now had multiple come tome and say Bubba, I'm so sorry I
have to shut down my businessBecause I'm their angel investor
(54:55):
or I'm their VC.
And almost immediately I try torespond with you know,
so-and-so, entrepreneur, I loveyou, it's not your fault and you
know.
Please just know, talk to meabout your next business.
Let's see if we can do it again.
Because I received that kind ofgesture and it changed for me
(55:19):
kind of that mentality of who Iwas, and I want to do the same
for others.
I mean, the guy who just walkedout of the room, right, I just
I love him.
This is a fellow entrepreneur.
I love him to death and I wrotethe check to this entrepreneur
because I love him and I believein him and even though the
business didn't work, I stilllove him as an individual, like
(55:40):
he's a good human being.
And yes, 50 grand is gone andthat's part of investing and I
get it.
And now, from this side, I cansee how my investors felt when
mine didn't work and it hashealed a part of me because I
know that they're just like hey,you know what.
You win some, you lose some.
I was hoping, but I get it andit's okay.
(56:03):
So I don't know.
I feel like as youngentrepreneurs, if you're
listening to this, don't getdiscouraged about not starting
because of failure.
I think that's where mostentrepreneurs end up is, they
have these ideas, they thinkthey're genius ideas and then
they never execute.
Execution is really the key tosuccess.
(56:24):
You may want to fail fasterthough, and uh, that the concept
of failing fast they teach intech stars.
Fail fast so that you canessentially pivot or iterate and
you know and change to findwhat might work, the faster that
you can make those iterations.
And Sam Altman, the founder ofopen AI, who also led Y
(56:48):
Combinator for a long time, hesays the companies who iterate
the fastest will have the mostsuccess.
If you're, you know, uploadingyour new software every month
because that's your like, youruh cadence to go live, and
another company is doing everytwo or three days, think of how
many iterations they get overyou and those companies will see
(57:10):
more success.
So I would look at you in theeye and say still.
Go for that idea, but fail fast.
Don't draw out the process totake two or three years.
Try to find out as fast as youpossibly can if it's a viable
idea or not.
That means don't talk to yourmom or your grandma or your
(57:30):
aunts and uncles.
Go talk to random strangers.
Give them the product or letthem use the tool.
Or even, if you don't even haveit built, go try and pre-sell
whatever you're going to do andsee if people are willing to do
it, before you go and spendyears and years of your life on
something you may not know theywant.
(57:50):
I'm Bubba Page.
I'm the founder of Outrocom,the company that failed.
Raised venture capital, spenttwo and a half years of blood,
sweat and tears.
We had to shut it down.
But don't get down, because youcan do it over and over again
and at some point that successwill come.
So keep at it.
Bubba (58:08):
Thanks for tuning in to the Real F Word.
The Real F Word is failure, andremember that failure is a
stepping stone, it's not just astumbling block.
Join us next time as wecontinue to explore the journey
of resilience and growth,without ignoring the true costs
personally, professionally andfinancially that comes with
failure.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep embracing the real stories
of entrepreneurship.
(58:29):
See you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.