10. Lost My Business and Almost Lost Myself | Levi Lindsay

Levi Lindsay, former cofounder of VidArmy and now CMO at Hona, sat down with Joe Grover to share his story of how he started VidArmy. Believing hustle would lead to success, he worked for years without pay but unfortunately battled cofounder disputes and lost himself in the process.

As a recent college graduate, Levi started VidArmy after getting the idea from a friend. The first few years went well as they slowly gained clients and eventually added two more partners—without an official partner agreement—and a CEO. When COVID hit, a government loan provided their first real working capital. Instead of stabilizing the business, it fueled over-expansion and bad hires and forced the partners to work without a paycheck.

Levi found himself on the edge of burnout and suffering panic attacks when one partner demanded a permanent 6% of future revenue. He had built his entire identity around VidArmy, convinced that walking away meant failure. But everything changed when he finally decided to step away as his wife requested, “I just want my husband back.”

From his experiences, Joe and Levi discuss the importance of giving yourself permission to quit in order to find yourself again. They explore the dangers of the sunk-cost fallacy, how some leaders deplete themselves to the point of losing who they are, and the trap of the “I’ll be happy when” mentality.

Links:

Levi Lindsay: LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/levilindsay/)

Joe Grover: LinkedIn (www.linkedin.com/in/joelgrover/)

This episode is sponsored by Amplēo, offering fractional executives in finance, marketing, and HR. Visit ampleo.com to learn more.

Chapters:

[0:00 - 1:44] Intro

[1:44 - 5:26] The Birth of VidArmy and Early Struggles

[5:26 - 10:44] Scaling Up

[10:44 - 28:55] Partnerships, Paychecks, and Panic Attacks

[28:55 - 41:53] The Breaking Point and Letting Go 

[41:53 - 46:05 ] The Aftermath and Personal Recovery

[46:05 - 57:59] I’ll be happy when . . .

[46:05 - 1:00:00] Permission to Quit

#TheRealFWord #PermissionToQuit #Failure #Entrepreneurship

Episode Transcript

Levi Lindsay (00:00):
The best learning experiences are the real scars
that failure leaves.
The actual experience of losingsomething, failing, egg on your
face, the feeling of the yolkdripping down of failure.
Welcome to The Real

Joe Grover (00:17):
F Word.
I'm so happy to be here withyou, Levi.
We've become fast friends, andI remember...
Many years ago, a good mutualfriend of ours said, hey, you've
got to meet Levi Lindsey.
He's so talented, and he'sstarting this company called
VidArmy, and we're going to talka little bit more about

(00:38):
VidArmy.

Levi Lindsay (00:38):
It was Michael Jordan, I think, was our mutual
friend.
That told you that you neededto meet me.

Joe Grover (00:44):
Indeed.
MJ, number 23.
Who was the friend?
Mark Matheson.
Oh, that's right.
Yes.
And you'll probably belistening to this episode.

Levi Lindsay (00:52):
Oh, my gosh.
Mark, it's been too long.
I'd love to chat.
He was a mentor for us atVidArmy.
That's right.

Joe Grover (00:58):
And you've had a really interesting and varied
career.
You've been a CMO.
You've run content at one ofthe larger kind of consumer
brands here, Kizik, that grewreally, really fast.
You're now the VP of Marketingat Hona.

Levi Lindsay (01:12):
Yes.

Joe Grover (01:12):
which is a software company.
I think you're catered toattorneys, right?
So you've had a terrific run.
And today I want to talk aboutall the failures and none of the
successes, right?
That is the theme of ourdiscussion here on the F Word
podcast.
So tell me about VidArmy.
What was the genesis of theidea?
And talk a little bit aboutthat early growth and things

(01:34):
were going well.
And then there was like, youand I, you shared this
experience with me.
There's a little bit of a turn.
And I think there's a lot oflearning from your experience
there that the listeners willwant to hear.

Levi Lindsay (01:44):
Yeah, VidArmy, it's so funny.
We had lunch a while ago and Itold you this whole story and I
was like, I really need to learnhow to condense this.
But it really was so manyfailures and learning in that
three years.
I feel like I went and got acouple of master's degrees.
Uh, if you're familiar with,uh, the LDS culture here in

(02:04):
Utah, I was the, I was living inmy parents' basement with my
newlywed wife.
We just graduated from collegeand we're kind of trying to
figure out what, what to do nextafter college.
Uh, and I was assigned to hometeach at the time is what it was
called.
Uh, a gentleman in my parents'congregation up in Bountiful,
Utah, uh, And we became veryfast friends.

(02:27):
And he said, hey, I have thisidea, but I'm working full time
and I have bills to pay.
But you're this young kid who'sliving in his mom's basement.
So you probably have thefinancial flexibility and time
to start this up.
And I was like, I do.
And so he's like, it's a videosubscription.

(02:48):
It's 500 bucks a month and youget unlimited video production
for 500 bucks a month.
And I was like, I like thesound of this.

Joe Grover (02:55):
Did you have a video background?

Levi Lindsay (02:57):
No.
No video background, nophotography, nothing

Joe Grover (03:00):
at all.
Marketing background?

Levi Lindsay (03:02):
I mean, I wanted to go into marketing, but I saw
that the marketing degrees allhad a couple more math classes,
and I didn't want to take anymore math.
So I did the professional salesdegree at Weber, thinking maybe
I can somehow default intomarketing.
Thankfully I did, but it was adumb choice.
But yeah, then it was like,okay, you've got access to my

(03:26):
camera equipment.
I'll start throwing somebusiness your way.
Minky Couture, I think wasalready a client at the time and
a couple other like smallerbusinesses up in Northern Utah
were clients and started gettingrolling, getting some working
capital, hired our firstemployee after a couple months.

(03:46):
And the first year, was meworking full-time in the
business, not paying myself,with one employee that we paid,
I think, $18 an hour, and Johnnybeing full-time.
And that was kind of year one.
Just cranked, trying to buildrecurring revenue.
Sorry.

Joe Grover (04:06):
What was the response in the market?
Like, were you signing up abunch of clients quickly?
I

Levi Lindsay (04:13):
think it's a good question.
I think it was a little bit ofa, because I was always
positioning it as unlimitedfilming for $500, for 500 bucks.
And there was a lot of learningof how to tweak the model.
We actually got it to the pointwhere it would economically
work.
But within that first year, wereally were like eating.

(04:33):
Yeah.
It was a nonprofit.
It was a nonprofit for sure.
And we also like, we were verydelusional about how service
companies grow.
Yeah.
We thought that it would growlike a tech company and the
multiples would be 20X and VCdollars would flow in.
And we thought that it would belike a 1 to 10 ratio on every
dollar.

(04:53):
But in service, it just scaleslong and slow.
It's like the way I look at itis you get fast initial revenue
when you start a servicecompany, but then things taper
off more on the tail end.
It's not a hockey stick.
It's almost like a...
quick growth and then flatlinethem and then like slow, steady
growth.
And I didn't realize that.

Joe Grover (05:14):
So how many years did you build VidArmy?

Levi Lindsay (05:16):
Three years.

Joe Grover (05:17):
Okay.
About how far into this kind ofentrepreneurial journey did you
see signs of kind of weaknessin the model or the partnership?

Levi Lindsay (05:26):
Things started getting crazy as they scaled.
So year one, at the end of yearone, That's when my partner
said, okay, it looks like wehave enough monthly recurring
revenue that I could come in andyou can, we can pay my salary
and I can quit this job I'mdoing.
And so he jumped in, we startedpaying his salary.

(05:47):
I think I started paying myselfmaybe 1200 bucks a month at
that time.
Cause it's just like, I'm goingto grind it out.
It was 50, 50 from the start,no partnership agreement.
And we're just cruising, havinga good time.
And we just believe in thisthing.
And it's a lot of hard work,but we see the long-term vision.
And then he came on and he'slike, I can handle a hundred

(06:09):
clients.
Don't worry.
Week one, he was like, hey, weneed to hire some help for me.
And so then now we're hiring aneditor for 40, 50 grand a year,
whatever that is on top of hissalary.
So all the-

Joe Grover (06:20):
Because your partner had a video background.

Levi Lindsay (06:22):
Because my partner did have a video background.
Yeah.
And so the idea was that hewould be the individual
contributor to come in and alsobe the entrepreneur.
But it quickly just turnedinto, no, I need some individual
contributor help.
And then at this time, this isone of the funniest parts to me,
is his brother-in-law started apest control business a few

(06:46):
years back and was just on thetail end of selling it.
And I think he'd built it up tolike a million dollars in
annual revenue.
And my partner and I were like,just starry-eyed.
Like, I can't believe youscaled a business to $1 million
in annual revenue.
Like, this guy.
is the king of business.

Joe Grover (07:09):
You've spent a million dollars in a single ad
channel in your career permonth.

Levi Lindsay (07:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Money loses all perspective inmarketing.
I think we talked about this,but it's like you're like, let's
just run this quick test.
Oh, it didn't work.
Well, that was a house.
Exactly.
Anyway, so we said, come onboard.
Still no partnership agreement.
Come on board.

(07:34):
We'll give you 33% of thebusiness.
And it'll be 33, 33, 33.
So it's me, my original partnerand his brother-in-law.
And now we're all three owners.
And that's really because wedidn't have working capital or
funding.
I mean, just free labor forequity is kind of how we got
going.
And like my partner's initialequipment and jolt of clients

(07:54):
that kind of got us the ballrolling.
But then...
we needed to start bringing inmore business, to start scaling,
to start hiring more employees.
And so I would classify yeartwo more as like figuring out
how to make the model work andhow to grow.
And I think by the end of yeartwo, we had around 15 employees.

(08:14):
And I still wasn't taking asalary.
And his brother-in-law, myoriginal partner's
brother-in-law wasn't taking asalary still.
But we were, but we could seethe progress.
We could see the monthlyrecurring revenue climbing.
And it was like, it was thislegit sustainable business.

(08:35):
We had an office, we'd boughtsome more equipment.
And that's kind of where yeartwo ended.
And then we also kind ofstarted to see that the, the
model was more the $500business.
production was more of ourCostco chicken just to kind of,
it was more of like anadvertising ploy to get people

(08:56):
to come in to film other videos.
Because you had to charge more,

Joe Grover (09:00):
right?
Yeah.
It's 500 bucks.
Doesn't get you a lot

Levi Lindsay (09:03):
of, not a sustainable model.
Nope.
We would limit it.
It was like we'd film for onehour and, By the time we were in
year two, it was like we had alittle studio.
We'd film for one hour, film asmany videos as you wanted.
Mostly they were talking head.
And it was we would chop thatup into as many videos as you

(09:24):
feasibly could and do it alljust in the studio.
So it was like no travel, tighton editing.
And so it actually ended upworking, but we kind of had to
narrow and narrow and narrow thescope so that it could scale.

Joe Grover (09:40):
So you're at the end of year two, you've got another
partner.
So the three of you, did youfinally pencil that or did you
finalize an agreement?
Do you never had like afinalized partnership agreement?
This, by the way, this happensa lot.
There's probably some learninghere for entrepreneurs.
These handshake agreements onday one seem to be great.
There's high trust and there'sexcitement to build a business.
Invariably things don't alwaysgo as planned and it's a mess.

(10:04):
Is that fair to say?

Levi Lindsay (10:05):
Especially when your friends or your family or
even in Utah church, Churchmembers, they would never do
that to me.
Someone who's in mycongregation, someone who's my
family member, someone who actsso kindly and we get along so
well, we would never end updisagreeing to the point where
we couldn't fix it.

Joe Grover (10:23):
Yeah, those are famous last words, right?
I've seen that play out overand over and over again.

Levi Lindsay (10:28):
Yeah.

Joe Grover (10:29):
I think especially in certain cultures, this
culture of trust is a positivething.
We want to give people thebenefit of the doubt and trust
each other, but it's business.
You just need to remember thisis business.
And in the end, what's writtenis what people are going to do.

Levi Lindsay (10:44):
Yeah.
And the learning for me was...
You can trust anybody on thisplanet once an ironclad
agreement's in place.
Then you can trust completelyand fully.
But you do the diligence andthen you trust.
You don't trust and then

Joe Grover (10:59):
do

Levi Lindsay (11:00):
the diligence because it's always too late.

Joe Grover (11:03):
So you're two years in.

Levi Lindsay (11:05):
Two years in.

Joe Grover (11:05):
And then a few things are changing in the
business.
Talk to me about this yearthree.

Levi Lindsay (11:11):
Oh, man.
Year three is where things getreal wild.
COVID hits.
which obviously is crazy for afilm company because sending
people out gets sketchy.
But what's interesting is thegovernment was handing out money
like candy.
Our cute little video businessgot a nice juicy check with a

(11:35):
sweetheart loan, the EIDL.
So we get the EIDL loan, whichis like a 30-year fixed loan.
You owe $500 a month afterthree years, and it's 1%
interest.
It's the most sweetheart loan abusiness could ever get.
So that money hits our bank,and we're so many things that

(12:00):
we...

Joe Grover (12:01):
Because this is the first infusion of capital you've
had, right?
You've been bootstrapping this.
Every dollar that comes in ispaying people and trying to keep
the business alive, and now youget this little influx, little
shot in the arm, right?

Levi Lindsay (12:13):
Yep.

Joe Grover (12:13):
What do you do with his money?

Levi Lindsay (12:15):
First thing we do, we hire a CEO.
So now we have three foundersand a CEO and our 15 employees.
So we're just over leveraged.
Our monthly expenses are justclimbing, but we're just, our

(12:37):
optimism isn't rooted in logicat all.
Um, we just like, we see thisamount of money and like we did
with the million dollarbusiness, we thought this is a
ton of money, but you know...
Burn it fast.
It burns fast.
Like, I, you'd be shocked howfast money burns, like at

(12:57):
whatever quantity into abusiness.
Um, but we...
And then we kind of all starteddisagreeing pretty quickly on
how these funds should bedivvied out.
I always saw it as like this isworking capital for us to grow.
Maybe we put some intoadvertising.
Maybe we pay ourselves a littlebit of a salary and give

(13:20):
ourselves jobs, like really getstrict on what our job in the
business is.
But anyway, we hired a CEO,Nick Staggy, guy's a stud.
That was probably the onecorrect thing we did with those
funds because he took us frommid five figures to well beyond

(13:43):
six figures a month in revenueand a good chunk of that being
monthly recurring revenue withinthe first few months.
So that was...
I mean, that was probably thedeal of our lifetime that we
were going to get with thatsmall amount of cash was hiring
Nick Staggy as our CEO.
But at the same time, I didn'tunderstand some financial

(14:09):
obligations that the originalpartner was going through at the
time.
And he came to us and said toour new CEO, to myself and his
brother-in-law and said, I needto...
get my salary back up to thisimmediately.
Sorry, reversing.
All the founders took oursalaries away during COVID to

(14:33):
make sure we

Joe Grover (14:34):
could keep things going.
Right, so now you're workingfor free again.
Yeah.
Trying to make ends meet.
How did you make ends meetduring those days?

Levi Lindsay (14:41):
My sweet wife.
She worked.
She worked.
That was, man, that was onething that killed me, I
remember.
Sorry, this is a side tangent,but...
I remember dropping off mylittle girl, my first daughter
to daycare while my wife was atwork, working full time to make

(15:04):
sure I didn't have to take asalary.
And I dropped off my littlegirl and she's bawling her eyes
out and clawing to not go andjust clawing my arm as she
leaves.
And I go get in the car and Ijust started bawling because
I've now got a partner That'ssaying he's got to get paid and

(15:25):
we don't have the money to payhim, but I think he has the
perception that he can get paidbecause we have this little nest
egg.
And I have to go drop mydaughter off to go work for free
at this business and it's yearthree and I've been grinding
hard.
I just lost it.
And I think that's wherethings, I think that's where

(15:47):
emotions started to come intoplay.
And I started to fight back andsay, no, you can't go stay at
home, buy a new house withouttelling us and give us a vague
description of what you're goingto be doing when you're working
from home and get a salary whennone of us are, when the rest

(16:09):
of the founding group aren'ttaking a salary.
Then, His brother-in-law getsdeployed to California for the
military during COVID.
Oh, wow.
So now you're...
So now I'm on my own.
Thankfully, his brother-in-lawwas always very level-headed,
the mature one of the three, andkind of played mediator between
me and the original founder,but...

(16:30):
So now we're fighting with thefounder, brother-in-law's in
California.
I have to keep things going.
We have 15 employees.
We're closing Amazon.
So cool things are happening onthe revenue side, on the client
side.
This

Joe Grover (16:46):
is such a classic story because there were a lot
of positive things.
And maybe from the outsidelooking in, it was all up and to
the right.
But so much turmoil happened.
Behind the curtain, right?
So much turmoil in thepartnership.

Levi Lindsay (16:59):
Yeah.
Oh, and it's funny because wegrew very organically by just
personal brand on LinkedIn.
All the time, just pushing ourpersonal brands on LinkedIn is
really how it was our mainacquisition channel.

Joe Grover (17:12):
By the way, you've been a master of LinkedIn ever
since.
You're very active and get lotsof great engagement.

Levi Lindsay (17:18):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate that.
I think out of necessity, I wasable to find a voice on there.
And it's been a huge blessing.
I wouldn't have recovered afterthe failure if it wasn't for
that.
But anyway, we were really goodat making things look really
rosy to LinkedIn while thingswere just completely caving in
on us.
But so now at this point, we'rekind of just stewing in this

(17:44):
argument of like, hey, man,we're not going to pay you a
salary.
Like, we just can't do it.
And then all of a sudden weget...
we get in the mail a thickpartnership agreement.
And the partnership agreementsays that this partner is going
to get 6% of the top linerevenue from the business for

(18:07):
the lifetime of the business.
Is

Joe Grover (18:10):
this something you guys had talked about?

Levi Lindsay (18:11):
No.
Out

Joe Grover (18:13):
of the blue.

Levi Lindsay (18:15):
Completely out of the blue from a lawyer he had
hired, we get this partnershipagreement slapped on our desk.
Asking for six, just no stringsattached, every dollar, he gets
six cents.
No question.
And it's gross revenue, notnet, not profits, gross revenue.

Joe Grover (18:35):
Which in a service business, which you were
probably running a gross marginof...
40%, you know?
I

Levi Lindsay (18:43):
wish.
Yeah.
I think it was 20% at its best.

Joe Grover (18:46):
A net or gross?

Levi Lindsay (18:48):
20% margins

Joe Grover (18:49):
at its best.
Okay, yeah, 20% net.
That's what I was going to say.
So like by the time you haveoverhead after you've paid your
people and your cost ofdelivery, like you're probably
20% net margin.
So 6% ends up being a big chunkof that.

Levi Lindsay (19:01):
Yeah.
Well, and you know, inhindsight, you read Shoe Dog
from Phil Knight and you'relike, you understand a growing
business with limited capitalis, eats itself alive.
I love the quote, you can diefrom indigestion just as easily
as you can die from starvation.

Joe Grover (19:16):
Starvation, yeah.

Levi Lindsay (19:17):
And the irony, like you were saying, is things
were up and to the rightrevenue-wise, but then we're
eating ourself alive througharguments and partnership
agreements, disagreements, andwhat to do with capital.
And maybe we could have made itoutside of that, but even then
it would have been a miracle.
And so...
Just things were tight.

Joe Grover (19:38):
Yeah.
So you get this partnershipagreement and how do you
respond?

Levi Lindsay (19:42):
Like I said, I think things had gotten really
emotional at this point becauseI'd been working for three
years.
I think at this time I'd madean accumulation of maybe $30,000
over the three years.
Wow.
Maybe.
Because like I would get a nicelivable wage for a month and
then we'd take it away prettyimmediately.
I'd get it and then we'd takeit away because I was always
like, look, I'll...

(20:03):
I'll take my salary

Joe Grover (20:05):
away.
Take one for the team, right?
You were playing the long game.

Levi Lindsay (20:07):
Yeah.

Joe Grover (20:09):
By the way, this is interesting.
The work for free mentality, Iwas taught.
early in my career that that'swhat's required is a little bit
of work for free.
And there's times in your lifewhere you can afford to do that.
And you were kind of in themoment, like today you couldn't
work for free.
You know, you've got twodaughters and right.
And you have a mortgageprobably and a couple of cars.
And so like, but early in yourcareer, you have this like

(20:31):
window where you can probablygive it two or three years
without making a lot of money.
Um, And I always wonder, like,is that worth it?
And the answer is it can be,but it rarely is, right?
Because it rarely works out andpays you back because most
startups fail.
It doesn't mean that youshouldn't do that for the

(20:51):
experience and to get started asan entrepreneur.
But I worked for free for atime as well.

Levi Lindsay (20:59):
It's hard because I couldn't do it again.
However, thankfully it happenedat the right time so that I
don't think I actually would beproviding for my family in the
way that I am now if I wouldn'thave worked for free.
Because I got on LinkedIn.

(21:21):
We built that following.
And I learned the hard lessons.
I learned what working capitalwas.
I learned the corporatestructure.
I kind of almost see it as likeI went and said, I don't want
to do a master's degree.
And God was like, I'll make youdo one anyway.

Joe Grover (21:41):
It's so true.
I mean, the experience, I mean,you learn more.
running a business in a monththan you would in a year sitting
in a classroom.

Levi Lindsay (21:49):
A hundred percent.
Reading a line about somethingversus the feeling of like, Ooh,
I've over leveraged my monthlyexpenses is such a...

Joe Grover (22:00):
Yeah.
Fixed costs will kill abusiness.

Levi Lindsay (22:02):
Yeah.
Having your stomach sink to theground because of a number
versus someone just telling you,Oh, this happens in business is
two completely different

Joe Grover (22:10):
things.
Not being able to make apayroll is...
Is a great lesson inaccounting.

Levi Lindsay (22:15):
Yeah.
And it's, I don't know, it'skind of random, but I think I've
been a better executive withincompanies because I can
empathize more with thefounders.
Sure.
Whereas a lot of people havethis perception of the founders
of like, you lucky dogs, you gotall this equity and you have
these payouts and da, da, da,da, da.
And it's like, you don't, theyleverage some risk.

Joe Grover (22:36):
It's so, I see this dynamic as I work with founders
where the rest of the employeeshave this perception.
You know, these founders arebuilding, like one in
particular, built a businessover 11 years, right?
Started in their home, right,and grew it.
And it's successful now, right?
And certainly there's some freecash flow now.

(22:56):
But no one recognizes thesacrifices for years and the
financial risk, right?
I mean, they put everything onthe line to get to where they're
at.
Yeah.
Employees will show up withoutthat perspective and they just
can't relate.

Levi Lindsay (23:10):
Yeah.
And everyone loves to say, lookat us now, look how big we are.
And I work for such and such.
It's like, you have no ideawhat year one is like, like the
year one to year two, yearthree, those are different
animals.
Like, I know I don't have it inme anymore.
Like, the reason I love Hona isI'm like, I'm coming in right
after Series A.

(23:31):
I'm coming in three years whenthere's market validation.

Joe Grover (23:34):
Working capital.
There's some marketinginvestments.
You've got a team.
A hundred percent.
It's a lot different when youhave capital and people.

Levi Lindsay (23:42):
I would have to be super passionate about
something if I was to go and doa year one to two again.

Joe Grover (23:47):
All right.
I'll invite you.

Levi Lindsay (23:49):
Let's start something.
Goodness gracious.
Or, you know, maybe after.
I know.
After an exit, we can...
That's true.
What's that joke is like, Iwish I had enough money that my
wife could have a coffee shopthat loses $40,000 a month.
That's right.
Anyway, yeah, year one is abeast.

Joe Grover (24:09):
So you're in year three, you get the partnership
agreement, and you're like, thisdoesn't work.

Levi Lindsay (24:13):
Yeah.
I'm like, the math isn'tmathing.
I get emotional.
One of my really big lessons inthis is...
when things like this happen,that you don't take it
personally, that you come backwithout emotion and you just
say, hey, this doesn't work.
And even if they come backemotionally, you just can't.

Joe Grover (24:33):
Were you emotional at the

Levi Lindsay (24:34):
time?
Very emotional, very immature.
I mean, I'm, I think it was 27at the time, a couple of years
out of college at this point.
And

Joe Grover (24:45):
I just.
Maybe a little overconfident.

Levi Lindsay (24:46):
super overconfident and just very,
like, I just, I handled it verypersonally and emotionally.
And I just, I wish I would havehad a more level head about it.
I think also at the time Ithought, well, this is my one
shot.
Like there's nothing afterthis.
VidArmy is me.
It's your identity.
It's my identity in thecommunity.

(25:08):
I was Levi, one of the foundersof VidArmy.
And so I just thought like,this guy's going to end my life.
Thankfully, gosh, it was just asilly little video company.
But so, yeah, we get that.
We get those papers.
We say no.
He comes back and thenegotiations start and the
negotiations are.
The different planets we wereliving on were incredible.

(25:33):
In

Joe Grover (25:34):
terms of the value that he is ascribing to the
business versus where you guyswere at.

Levi Lindsay (25:38):
Yeah.
I mean, one offer was you payme two hundred thousand dollars
every year for the rest of thelife of the business.
Where's that money coming from?
All of the profit, right?
We're not making an extra$200,000 right now.
I don't know what business isthat they could just be like,
okay, just to get this argumentover with, we'll hand over

(25:59):
$200,000 a year forever.

Joe Grover (26:00):
So it became super contentious and you're going
back and forth via email?
Yeah, email, phone

Levi Lindsay (26:06):
call.

Joe Grover (26:06):
Was there a moment that you realized that this
was...
not reconcilable, like that youweren't going to be able to
actually find like a meeting ofthe minds and a solution here?
I

Levi Lindsay (26:18):
don't know when it was, but at some point in the
crux of it all, it might've beenright after we did mediation.
So we finally met in personwith a mediator, with our
lawyers, we hired a lawyer andhe said, I'd like, he's like, my
final offer is for 3% of myequity of my 33%, I want $1

(26:38):
million.
Yeah.
And I was just like, dude,here's the numbers.
We put it all together.
The business is not only worthzero, it owes money.
So here's our offer.
Like we'll give you X amount ofmoney, which is, I don't even
know how we'll come up withthat, but you got to walk away.
Like we want all of that 33%.
And I think this is where Ilearned about reality distortion

(27:04):
fields and how there arepeople, and they're scary in
business because people, Thereisn't, like, there is no
reasoning.
And so now we're in thisposition of, like, this guy's
not backing down, and he hasjust as much as attachment to
this business

Joe Grover (27:21):
emotionally as we do.
But to be clear, there is stillno documentation that has
established the equity in thebusiness.
Nope.
Who was on the original LLCdocuments?
Who was the managing member?

Levi Lindsay (27:32):
I think me and him.

Joe Grover (27:34):
Okay.

Levi Lindsay (27:35):
And you know, we did, we went down all those
rabbit holes.
Um, but I think there wasenough like documentation
through text messages andemails.

Joe Grover (27:42):
So even though there was an agreement, everyone had
pretty much said, Hey, everyoneowns a third of this business.
Yeah.
And so thankfully,

Levi Lindsay (27:48):
thankfully things were strong enough there that
there wasn't really arguing outof that.
Anyway, the next move was afterfighting for a few more months,
uh, we went to, we bought himdown to 19% from 33%.
Uh, For an unreasonable amountof money that we were going to
pay in a few large chunks

Joe Grover (28:09):
over a few months.
Was that just so that you guyscould have majority control of
the business?

Levi Lindsay (28:12):
Yeah.

Joe Grover (28:13):
So there wasn't this kind of like stalemate?

Levi Lindsay (28:16):
And, I mean, I learned a lot about stuff.
Like if you're 20% or more, youhave to be on loans and on
certain types of documents andleases.
And so our goal was to at leastget them to 19%.
So we got him down

Joe Grover (28:30):
to that.
It sounds like you had somedebt too.
So you'd raise some notes.

Levi Lindsay (28:33):
Well, the EIDL is technically debt.
Um, and then like the PPP loan,but thankfully that was
forgivable.
But, um, it was like we, andthen we were so over leveraged
on our monthly expenses.
It was like, we need all thisworking capital.
And like, you look at it on abalance sheet and the company
was literally worth $0 at themoment.

(28:55):
Um, and, But you're stillgrowing.

Joe Grover (28:58):
You're still providing good service.

Levi Lindsay (29:00):
Yep.
And, you know, at this time,we're up well above, like, well
above the seven-figure mark.
Yeah.
Or I guess we're around thatseven-figure mark in annual
revenue.
And like I said, there's somegood monthly recurring.
So once we get him down to 19%,he went and started a company

(29:20):
called VidFam to compete withVidArmy directly with a new
partner.
He told people, asked me whyit's called VidFam.
I assume what he would tellpeople is that, well, and maybe
I caught wind of this, but itwas called VidFam because we, he
valued family and we didn'tbecause we wouldn't let him be

(29:42):
with his family.
I think, you know, in his head,from his perspective, it's you
guys, like, I'm here as a friendasking you for a favor and
you're not giving it to me whenI would do the same for you.
Right.

Joe Grover (29:56):
And I'm sure if he was on the podcast, he'd have a
perspective about things.
For sure.
What's up, Phil fans?
You know, as we've listened toso many guests on this podcast,
that the road to success isoften paved with failure, with a
lot of challenges, and evenfull-on face plants.
But there's a thing that youcould do to help skip some of
those bumps and bruises.

(30:18):
And that's really where theconsultants at Amplio come in.
See, Amplio offers fractionalexecutives in finance,
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And these are people who'veexperienced a lot.
They've been in the trenches.
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But here's the kicker.
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applying all that wisdom to yourbusiness to support you so you

(30:40):
don't have to learn the hardway.
I mean, think about it.
Instead of stumbling around inthe dark and hoping you don't
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Amplio consultants and expertshave worked with and for
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(31:01):
So while we embrace failure onthis podcast, there is no rule
that says you have to fail ateverything yourself.
So check out Amplio and see howtheir fractional executives can
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Sometimes the smartest move islearning from someone else's
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Visit Amplio.com to learn more.

(31:22):
man, how rough.
Like at that time, like whatwas your mental health like?

Levi Lindsay (31:32):
So this is when panic attacks started.
I think this is when this wasall around like November of
2020.
And that's when I had my firstpanic attack.
It was in the crux of arguingover like, how are we going to
even get him to 19%?
And that's when I was just, Ifound myself in my closet.
I'd never had a panic attackbefore.

(31:53):
I'd, you know, heard of thembefore but i'm just in my closet
and just breathing heavilycan't breathe and like my mind
is disassociating it feelsexistential and my wife comes in
and catches me and i'm just inthis shock state and she just

(32:13):
starts kind of rubbing my backand um that was freaky Because
at the moment, I didn't have themental fortitude or knowledge
that anything would get better.
And then the tricky part is I'malso experiencing burnout
because I've been working myfreaking butt off for three

(32:34):
years.
How many hours a week

Joe Grover (32:36):
were you working?

Levi Lindsay (32:37):
I mean, at the crux of it, sometimes 80.
You know when you're a businessowner, it's like...
I remember I would go onvacation with my family, and I'd
be on the beach or texting, andthey'd be out in the water.

Joe Grover (32:50):
Unfortunately, I do know.

Levi Lindsay (32:51):
On a vacation we couldn't afford.
I'm over there working, tryingto figure out.
Credit cards.
Trying to figure out, well,this videographer is supposed to
be here at this time, andda-da-da-da-da.
Because you just, you're...
business just never leaves yourbrain it's like even if you
have a thought it's your secondthought and then you can maybe
get another thought where youtaste some food and you're like

(33:13):
oh this food's good my businessthis food's good my business

Joe Grover (33:16):
yeah it's consuming mentally right it's like even
physically my Melanie wouldalways say my wife would always
say hey you're here physicallybut you're not here mentally
like I was there but she knewand everyone could tell that I
wasn't engaged I wasn'tconnecting I wasn't Like even
like talking because my mind wasspinning about all the things

(33:39):
that had to be done and fixedand all the problems and
challenges.
And that's such a dangerousplace to find yourself in
because you're not onlysacrificing your time.
And in your case, you weren'tgetting paid, but you're
sacrificing relationships.
You're sacrificing realconnection for the pursuit of

(34:00):
some purpose.
success, some achievement.
And that's a dangerous place tobe.
And a lot of entrepreneurs canrelate to that.
So the panic attack started.
And by the way, thank you forbeing so open about this because
we haven't talked about this alot in previous episodes.
But I had experiences duringabout a year and a half stretch,

(34:22):
very similar to that, where notin a chemical way was I
depressed, but All of the signs,I dealt with all the kind of
signs of depression.
And I remember being curled upa time or two in a closet or in
a car just because I didn't feellike I could, I did not have a

(34:42):
coping mechanism.
And I had internalizedeverything that was happening in
the business in a way that Ifelt like I had to solve it all
and that I carried it all on myshoulders in a way that was so
unhealthy and And so did thatget better?
Was it pretty persistent, thepanic attacks and the anxiety
that came with this stressfulsituation at VidArmy?

Levi Lindsay (35:03):
It got worse and worse.
Because I think you couple itwith a few things.
I have ADHD and I get hyperfocus where hyper focus is a
blessing because you go hard atone thing and you get obsessed
with that thing.
And my thing was make vid armythe biggest thing this world has
ever seen.

Joe Grover (35:21):
This was your bet.
You were swinging for thefence.

Levi Lindsay (35:24):
And that leads to burnout.
And then it leads to panicattacks because I'm working on
this thing and people arefighting against me.
And so the frustration ensues,the burnout ensues.
And what's interesting is, andyou probably experienced this,
is it's like sometimes as thefounder you start or business
owner, you start feeling allthose pressures and those

(35:44):
weights and the depression andthe burnout.
But then you don't feel likeyou even have the space to go
recover because everyone'sdepending on you and the
problems aren't going to goaway.
It's not like a lot ofemployees have the privilege of
punching out at five and beinglike, Like, if I lose my job,
I'll go get another one.
But for you, it's like, no,I've leveraged everything into

(36:05):
this.
I've bled into this and I haveto make it work.
And these people are makingsalaries and I have to show up
the next day.

Joe Grover (36:14):
Isn't it interesting as a leader, we feel this
responsibility and it is ourresponsibility to show up and
rally the team and to motivateand provide vision and
encouragement.
And I remember walking up thestairs to my office and every
single morning.
It was an old building inDenver and these metal stairs.
I can still feel the weight ofevery step because I was in so

(36:38):
much pain and I knew, I knewthat there was an outcome,
inevitable outcome here that wasnot going to be positive for
many people, including thoseemployees and my investors and
my customers.
And, and so I would walk upthose stairs and I walk in and I
think if you ask people how Ishowed up every single day, they
would realize They would say Iwas positive and motivating and

(37:01):
encouraging, and I had to dig sodeep.
But I was hiding.
I was hiding real pain.
And just because I felt like Ihad no other choice.
I couldn't show up in thatstate of anxiety or stress
because it would just bleed intothe rest of the organization.
And that, I think, exasperatesthe problem because there's no

(37:21):
outlet.
You feel like you have to besome— show up in a way that is
so dissonant with how you'refeeling did you feel that way

Levi Lindsay (37:30):
yeah yeah and it's you're almost like running on
reserve you're running onadrenaline because you've
already given everything thatyou can give so now you're just
tapping into fight or flightchemicals that's that's
probably true to to make peoplehappy and it's like you're not
taking from a tank that you'vefilled anymore you're taking
from an empty take and it's thisIt's this extra little caveman

(37:52):
pouch of adrenaline that you'rerunning on.
And that's dangerous because itgot to the point, and I'll fast
forward a little bit, when Ifinally did leave the business
and I could kind of like takemyself out of it.
I was so used to being Levi,the founder of it, one of the

(38:12):
founders of it, Army, and sohyper-focused on it and being on
autopilot with my family andbeing and just– grinding through
burnout.
Then you take all that away andit was like, wait, now what's
my purpose and what's next andwho am I?
And my identity was tied tothat.
My mental, like my happinesswas tied to the outcome of that

(38:35):
and I didn't get the outcome ofthat.
So now I'm sad.
It all came to a pretty bigcrux where I attempted suicide
about a month and a half laterwhere I just thought like, cause
I, I, I'd emptied the tank sodry that I was like, how am I
supposed to go on when there'sjust an empty tank?

(38:56):
And I'm reaching for stuff andI am not finding anything.
Thankfully, time is what fillsthat tank.
Not thankfully as it takes along time.
I think, I mean, Alex MacArthurand Kizik probably saved my

(39:17):
life.
by reaching out and taking achance on me.
Otherwise, who knows where I'dbe or what I'd be floundering
through, but they gave me apurpose and an awesome team to
fall back on and trusted me withprojects that I fumbled
through.
I don't think I'd be herewithout that.

Joe Grover (39:42):
This experience is probably all too familiar to so
many entrepreneurs.
We don't really talk about themental health costs that come
with business ownership, withstarting something.
And I just wonder, like, how dowe, how would you have, could

(40:04):
you have done anything differentalong the way that would have
kind of helped you cope?
We're so grateful that you'rehere and have had this
successful marketing careerpost-BidArmy.
But most importantly, we're sothankful that you're here
sharing this perspective andbeing vulnerable and giving hope
and direction to otherentrepreneurs.

(40:25):
But what would you have donedifferent along the way that
would have prevented thatspiral?

Levi Lindsay (40:30):
Oh man, I just, it's so funny because I've
bounced to a few companies nowand I look back, I don't do, I
don't do this perfectly.
anymore or now but I do I do itsometimes when I get into the

(40:51):
crux of the problems of thecurrent day of the current
company I think oh yeah I wasfacing some problems at neighbor
I don't even remember what theywere but man I was stressed out
but that's a company I don'tthink about anymore and I don't
work there and like the vid armyproblems they're not problems
anymore because I don't workthere I like what Tim Allen says

(41:14):
on one of the Santa Clausmovies.
He says, a problem at work is aproblem, but a problem at home
is a problem.
And just this last week, Ifaced a really big problem where
it was of my own doing.
I was a really big idiot andmade some pretty crazy mistakes

(41:39):
with some interpersonal skillswith somebody that I really care
about.
And the only thing that got methrough was despite the
temptation to say, my problem'sat work, so let's dive into
work.
Fighting the temptation to dothat and saying, my problem's at
work, I'm going to dive in headdeep into home.
And I'm going to take my girlsout on a daddy-daughter date.

(42:03):
I'm going to take them to theindoor play gym.
I'm going to enjoy reading abook with them.
because everything in you saysgo solve the problem at work.
But man, my three-year-oldhealed my soul this last week
because all the failures in lifeand the reputations I've

(42:27):
destroyed through being just ajerk or making mistakes and
failures and not actingcorrectly and learning, my
three-year-old looks at me andI'm her entire world.
Um, my wife, when I was, um, Icame to my wife and I said, Hey,
I think it's time for me toleave it army.

(42:48):
And I've got this opportunity.
I think this is the time for meto just walk away.
She said, I don't care what youdo.
I just want my husband back.
Um, and it took a lot of monthsand a lot of time.
And like I said, thankfullyKizik was there to catch my fall
and Alex MacArthur, but, um, Iwasn't there anymore.

Joe Grover (43:14):
It's so easy now, right?
In hindsight to say thoseproblems weren't as big, even as
you describe them today, I'msure you still feel some of that
pain, but with perspective,they're like, Hey, it was a
small video business.
You just said it.
Um, but if it was your wholeworld, it was your whole
identity.
Your mental health was hingingon what was happening in this

(43:38):
negotiation and the successorfailure of the company.
Um, In the moment, how do we dothat?
How do we keep perspective inthe moment?
Because that's what I strugglewith too.
And curiously, the reason I gota little bit emotional is
because my wife said that samething to me, right?
She's like, this is not JoeGrover.
She's like, this is not worthit.
She's like, I don't care whatyou do.

(43:59):
Like I'd rather be poor for therest of our life than for you
to be in pain and disconnectedand unavailable.
And probably the thing thatsaved me during those years was
like some ski trips with mykids.
Those were moments where Iwasn't thinking about work on
Saturdays, driving up I-70 toVail and Breckenridge when I was
living in Colorado.
Those are probably the, thatkept me sane through that.

(44:22):
And then Sunday night wouldcome and I would spiral and I'd
work and fight and claw my waytrying to solve all the
problems.
But how do we keep theperspective in the moment when
these just seem like mountainsthat are unclimbable?

Levi Lindsay (44:39):
I feel like you'll understand what I mean when I
say I think unfortunately one ofthe best ways to learn how to
do it is to go through it andlose a business.
I'm so grateful now in 2025that I lost myself in 2021,

(45:04):
because now I can look back andsay, nothing's worth that,
really feels like that oneanalogy of God's holding holding
a teddy bear behind his backthat's huge and you're sitting
there crying over this littletiny teddy bear and his eyeballs
popped out and you're sad andhe's like, I've got something so
much bigger and better for you,but right now I get that this
sucks.
And so I just, I don't know if,because people talk about

(45:29):
shifting perspective andhopefully listening to this
podcast will help people shiftperspective.
But at the end of the day, Ithink it's, The best learning
experiences are the real scarsthat failure leaves.
The actual experience of losingsomething, failing, Egg on your
face.

(45:50):
The feeling of the yolkdripping down of failure.

Joe Grover (45:53):
That everyone can see and everyone's judging you,
right?
The founder, the failedfounder, right?
The founder of VidArmy whodidn't figure it out, right?
Don't you, like, I can rememberjust thinking, oh, I'll never,
ever be a CEO or a CMO everagain because, like, who would
bet on me?
A

Levi Lindsay (46:11):
hundred percent.
And it's just...
Unfortunately, time is the onething.
And it sucks because you wantto fix things then, but time has
been the single healer ofsuicidal ideation, damage to a

(46:33):
reputation for someone who caresway too much about what people
think, not being qualified to dothe things that I have
committed to doing.
the feelings of bitterness andself-doubt and self-loathing.
It's time.

Joe Grover (46:56):
Yeah, it took me seven years to start a podcast
to talk about failure.
You're far ahead of where Iwas, you know, four years ago.

Levi Lindsay (47:05):
Four years,

Joe Grover (47:05):
yeah.
Seems like a lifetime ago,doesn't it now?

Levi Lindsay (47:09):
But also, when you think of 2020, don't you think
like, oh, it was like, what,last year, two years ago?
And then people are like, no,it was five years ago.
And you add on top of that, Imean, 2020 was a crazy year for
the entire world, let alonetrying to keep a thin business
that's on the verge ofcollapsing.

Joe Grover (47:30):
Tell me about the...
You tell your wife that you'redone with VidArmy and she says,
whatever, I don't care at allabout that business.
I just care about my husband.
How did you feel the day after?

Levi Lindsay (47:44):
You probably would relate to this too, but you
almost kind of go through everygrieving process.
Like you go through denial andacceptance and bargaining.
Yeah.
I remember when the contractwas signed and I didn't have any
equity anymore in it and Iwashed my hands of it and had
indemnification from whateverhappened beyond that point.

(48:05):
Muscles I didn't even know Ihad started to relax.
Muscles I didn't know that I'dbeen clenching for weeks started
to relax.
And then it was facing the nextconundrum, which was who the
crap am I?
And I what do I do now andwhat's my purpose?

(48:26):
And can I, what do I go back toschool?
Can I find a job?
Am I hireable?
But yeah, I do remember justthe feeling washing over me.
My wife is just so patient.
Sounds like your, your wife andmy wife would really get along
where she's just like, I don'tcare.
We'll make it work.
We put so much pressure onourselves in America, but then

(48:49):
Utah too.

Joe Grover (48:50):
Yeah.
We have this, These ideals,this idealistic view of what
life should be, and it'sunhealthy.

Levi Lindsay (48:59):
It's unhealthy.
It drives a lot of unhealthybehaviors.
It does.

Joe Grover (49:04):
Yeah.
That moment, so there's alittle bit of grieving.
I understand that.
There's absolutely, like, Iremember throwing away all the
T-shirts that had the logo ofthe company.
because I couldn't go in mycloset.
I had all of the swag, hats,t-shirts, bags.
I threw it all away because itwas a reminder to me of a

(49:25):
failure.
And I had to distance myselffrom that.
Isn't that, I mean, that'scrazy.
Like I just, it all went to theSalvation Army.
But I do remember also therelief.
I also remember after we hadlaid off a bunch of employees,
it was a little bit of adifferent outcome.
And I talked to all theinvestors.
It was super painful.
I've talked about it a lotthrough season one.

(49:45):
I do remember feeling like Iwas free again.
It wasn't my identity anymore.
It was a bad outcome.
I didn't want to talk about it.
I wrote about it.
I didn't want to talk about itwith anyone.
I didn't want to unpack it atthe time.
But I did feel a great relief.
And the reason I bring it up isbecause I just want to say it's

(50:06):
okay to quit.
I think, and we've talked a lotabout quitting and failing and
are those the same or they'renot the same, but I've just
changed my philosophy over thelast several months as I've
talked to entrepreneurs and it'sjust not worth it.
The reality is if it's thatbad, that you don't feel like

(50:28):
you should be living anymore, orif it's that bad that you don't
think you're going to be ableto turn this thing around, then
it's You are more important toyour family and to society and
to our community than thatbusiness is.
Period.
Full stop.
And this sunk cost fallacywhere like I've been at it for

(50:49):
three years.
I put all my money and time andenergy into it.
It's my identity.
Stop it.
Just stop it.
Say I'm done and move on.
Because I've now watchedentrepreneur after entrepreneur,
whether they were forced to doit.
because the business just ranout of cash and they had to
close the doors, or they choseto do it because that was in
their best interest.

(51:09):
I've seen those entrepreneurstake that experience and parlay
it into successful companies,but most importantly, happier
lives, more fulfilled lives.
Just stop.
It's not worth it.
And this idea that we have topersevere against all odds, that
we can't ever quit, I thinkdoes more damage to humans and

(51:32):
to families than all of thewealth that you could accumulate
from any exit or IPO that youcould ever imagine.
So I don't know if that's a hottake or not, but like if you're
an entrepreneur and you'relike, I don't feel like I have
joy in my life.
I can't connect with peoplethat I love.
Right.
I don't think I'm going to beable to figure this out.

(51:53):
I don't feel like I should beon the earth anymore.
Right.
then what I would tell you todo is stop, quit, back away,
distance yourself, and you willfind some freedom.
And honestly, you'll probablyfind that this endeavor, this
venture is not your end game,that you got something else, a

(52:14):
bigger teddy bear.
Man, I love, love,

Levi Lindsay (52:16):
love that.
One of the learnings is you canall be happy when...
Yourself into the grave.
I know.
I'll be happy when thisbusiness hits this revenue mark.
I'll be happy when we have thismany employees.
I'll be happy once we get ourSeries A funding.
I'll be happy when.
I'll be happy when.
When in reality, if I was tostart another business, I would

(52:39):
need to make sure I'm happy andthat the business could be an
amplifier of the happiness, notthe giver of it.

Joe Grover (52:45):
Yeah.
I love that.
Stop it.
I'll be happy when...
you'll be asking yourself thatquestion until you're 90 years
old.
100%.
It has to be independent of thesuccess or any outcome of any
company.
So I don't know.
Do you disagree or agree withwhat I said?
Because I've never said it outloud until I've been sitting
here with you.
And it's been something Iwanted to get off my chest.

(53:08):
And this is probably the finalepisode of season one.
So I guess I just want to givepermission to entrepreneurs
everywhere to stop and to quit.
And to like, you know, live tofight another day.

Levi Lindsay (53:21):
Yeah.
Or even slow down.
Yeah.
Who said that you have to, youhave to have a divvy exit in
three years.
Yeah.
Like so many people need tolearn to be easily pleased, but
never satisfied.
Yeah.
Where it's, where it's, oh,wow.
Okay.
We're not so-and-so that I sawon LinkedIn, but like, man, I
got like, Look at where, lookhow far we've come.

(53:43):
This is pretty awesome.
Like we have a business doingsuch and such revenue and it's
paying our bills and like, ohyeah, we can fix a couple of
problems.
Like I think shifting theperspective and comparison, it
really is the thief of joy.
And failure, when you're afailure and then you see other
people succeeding or evenperceiving that they're

(54:04):
succeeding, because like I said,I was really good at showing
people I was succeeding when weweren't.
We're marketers.
Of course we're going to showpeople we succeed.
Yeah.
Just because other people arehaving certain successes doesn't
mean that they're...
Yeah.
It's your journey.

(54:25):
Like...
That was my journey that Ineeded to go through.
I like what one VC told methis, I love, before you start a
business, before you join abusiness, before you do
anything, know thyself.
And we sit there and compareall these successes of people
and it's like, I don't know whatthey've got to get to that
success or what they've beenthrough to get to that.

(54:46):
But at the end of the day, allI get to take with me is the
learning from the failures andnone of the IPOs.
And can we just normalize?
Sorry.
Can we just normalize in Utah?
Quit.
putting off salary for equity,quit putting off happiness for
these little startups in hopesfor an IPO.

(55:08):
Every entrepreneur is out thereselling this dream of like,
burn yourself out for me and oneday you'll get $2 million or
$10 million and you'll have thishuge exit.
It's like, normalize justgetting paid what you need to
get paid now.
Yes.
Clocking out at five, goinghome and seeing your family and
quit putting off your happinessfor this fictitious IPO that's

Joe Grover (55:28):
going to happen.
All the VCs in the communityare going to be like, Joe just
told all the entrepreneurs tostop and quit their job as the
founder and you just said gohome at five and stop taking
equity instead of salary takeall the salary now and and i
know i agree like how many timesscript i mean i was sitting
with three executives one yearand we were growing we were
actually had raised a bunch ofmoney and we were doing pretty

(55:50):
well like we were on a nicetrajectory but we were not
profitable and i remember therewas this conversation about our
salaries and we were all undermarket and we all got paid the
exact same amount which isreally interesting the c-suite
all had the exact same salary.
We had the exact same bonus.
So we're all on parity.
And I remember we said, okay,we're going to bump it by
$20,000 a year.
And I said, no.

(56:11):
And I like was, I was like,guys, and I came from the
investment side.
I said, listen, we're notprofitable.
We can't justify that.
This is not the right time togive ourselves a raise.
We need to get to profitabilityfirst.
And I know that sounds reallybenevolent, but it was stupid
because like that $20,000 wasnot going to make a difference
at all in our burn rate.
It was a principle-baseddecision that I felt strongly

(56:32):
about, and I'm sure my investorsthanked me for it.
But guess what?
That $20,000 did make a lot ofdifference to my family and
probably to my kids' collegefund that, you know, over the
course of five years, right, Ihad $100,000 less in my college,
my kids' college funds, in mysavings account because I had
taken one for the team because Ihad equity because I was

(56:54):
looking out for the long game.
Come on.
I'll be

Levi Lindsay (56:56):
happy when we get this paid, like...
I'm cutting $20,000 now for $20million in three years, right?
Yeah, exactly.
So I like that you bring thatup.
It's a lot of what's driving, Ithink, mental health problems
for people in software companiesright now and people working
off VC money.
Because it's like, we got togrind and we got to get, like,

(57:18):
we have to double every year orwe're not in top percentile.
And look, I'm all about workingreally hard towards those
things.
Manny, my CEO, don't worry.
I'm still going to work reallyhard.
But also like I'm done puttingoff my happiness, hoping that it
happens because it actuallyhappens maybe one out of every
hundred.

Joe Grover (57:38):
Yeah.
Even companies that have beensuccessful in Silicon Slopes and
you know who they are.
have had massive outcomes.
You look at how deep thosedollars went, and in some of
those companies, it did not govery deep.
And there was a lot of peoplethat signed up for those gigs
with this equity lottery ticket.
And those lottery ticketssometimes become a vacation, not

(57:59):
a retirement.
And I've seen that play out alot.
So even if the company doeswork out, oftentimes, unless
you're there early, you'reprobably not going to retire on
that outcome.
And so that's a little bit ofstraight talk from a couple of
guys who probably are reallyrich with a lot of equity that's

(58:19):
worth nothing.

Levi Lindsay (58:22):
At least I am.
Maybe you're not.
I am absolutely filthy rich onfailures and unkept promises and
outcomes that never happened.

Joe Grover (58:36):
Yeah.
One day I remember...
I had an employee say, tell mewhat this really means, these
employee stock options.
What's the strike price?
What's the company worth?
And I remember talking with myexecutive team and I said, let's
do a training on this so thateveryone understands exactly how
it works.
What's the value of theiroptions today based on the last

(58:57):
round?
Like, you know, with dilutionand preferences, what does it
look like if we sell thebusiness for $100 million or $1
billion?
And the sad reality was whenyou looked at 300 or 400
employees and everyone hadoptions and you did the math,
these were $50,000 checks.
And $50,000 is a lot of money.

(59:18):
But I think some of thoseemployees were operating...
with the assumption that it was500,000, just because they
didn't even, I'm going to retireoff this or pay off my house.
Yeah.
And so I like the call out.
So in, in closing, Levi, youhave, I, this is one of my
favorite conversations of alltime.
You've shared a bunch ofpersonal things and some of
these things you've shared onLinkedIn as well.

(59:40):
And I think it's inspiredthousands, maybe tens of
thousands of entrepreneurs, um,share some parting wisdom for
the founder of for the operatorwho is embattled, right?
Who is in a partnershipconflict, who is struggling to
keep a business afloat tosurvive, or who is struggling

(01:00:01):
with deeper kind of mentalhealth challenges.
What would you tell thatentrepreneur?

Levi Lindsay (01:00:06):
Even though every fiber of your being is saying
that you can't afford to takethe time off, that you can't
afford to lose the client,right?
that you can't afford to takethe next VC meeting or whatever
it is that you're putting offthat week off for, actually you

(01:00:27):
can't afford to not take thetime off.
You need to give yourselfpermission to lose a client.
You need to give yourselfpermission to piss off an
employee.
You need to give yourselfpermission to to quit caring so
much about the outcome of thebusiness and take a break and

(01:00:48):
force yourself to forget aboutthe business for a day, a week,
as long as you can because thebusiness is eating you alive and
you don't even know it.

Joe Grover (01:01:06):
So maybe you don't have to quit, but you definitely
need a week off or just quit

Levi Lindsay (01:01:09):
or quit free and hanging on and just let it go.
Let it go.
Give up because you're notgiving up.
You're actually, you'reactually, what's funny is giving
up the business in a lot ofregards and probably in a lot of
people's cases is actually thetriumph where you go and save
your life.

Joe Grover (01:01:25):
It's not the failure.

Levi Lindsay (01:01:26):
It's not the failure.

Joe Grover (01:01:28):
That's the, that's the reality is the fact that
you're sitting here right now.
That's a triumph.
Yeah.
Fact that you lived to fight.
another day, but also have nowparlayed that experience into so
many other contributions in ourcommunity and in the startup
ecosystem here in Utah.
There's no failure in thatstory.

(01:01:50):
in my opinion.
Thank you so much, Levi.
Thank you.
I

Levi Lindsay (01:01:53):
am Levi Lindsey, the former co-founder of
VidArmy, an epic failure out ofUtah, but turned out to be one
of the biggest blessings andlessons in my life where I got
to learn the importance offamily and taking care of my own
mental health above all else.

Joe Grover (01:02:12):
Thanks for tuning in to The Real F Word.
The Real F Word is failure.
And remember that failure is astepping stone.
It's not just a stumblingblock.
Join us next time as wecontinue to explore the journey
of resilience and growth withoutignoring the true costs
personally, professionally, andfinancially that comes with
failure.
Keep learning, keep growing,and keep embracing the real
stories of entrepreneurship.

(01:02:33):
See you next time.