September 24, 2024 • 45 mins
What if failure wasn’t something to be feared, but embraced as a vital part of the entrepreneurial journey? Join us in this eye-opening episode as we sit down with Steve Arntz, a renowned entrepreneur and intrapreneur, to dissect the "Real F Word"—failure. Steve candidly shares his roller-coaster ride through the business world, from getting fired from his first job to facing monumental career decisions that shaped his path. He opens up about the mental and emotional toll of these experiences, and the often unseen sacrifices that come with entrepreneurial endeavors.
You'll be taken through Steve's pivotal career moments, such as the advice he received from Dave Grow about consulting at Bain, a tempting counteroffer to stay at Lucid, and a bold promise from Ryan Smith that underscored the lucrative allure of Qualtrics. We explore how these choices were less about missing opportunities and more about finding the perfect fit. Steve's journey eventually led him to Instructure, where he learned the profound importance of risk-taking and the real lessons that come from facing commercial challenges head-on.
We round off our conversation by redefining success beyond traditional financial metrics. Steve emphasizes that true success lies in the meaningful impact on people's lives and the invaluable lessons learned. He shares his thoughts on resilience, storytelling in leadership, and the necessity of a strong support system. This episode is packed with deep insights and real-life experiences that will resonate with anyone looking to understand the true essence of success and the indispensable role of persistence in entrepreneurship. Don’t miss out on this must-listen discussion that promises to reshape your perspective on failure and success in the business world.
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Episode Transcript
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Joe (00:00):
Steve, in three years I will have made you a millionaire
.
I can guarantee you that.
And if you do not take this job, you will regret it for the
rest of your life.
Steve (00:11):
Welcome to the Real F Word.
Welcome, steve.
I'm so happy to have you heretoday because we're going to
talk about.
I'm so happy to have you heretoday because we're going to
talk about failure.
We're going to talk about yourjourney, and you're a successful
entrepreneur, intrapreneur.
You're a successful andrespected business leader.
(00:34):
I respect you for all thatyou've built and all your wisdom
and experience, and today I'mreally looking forward to
unpacking your kind of careerarc and journey and then talking
about your latest startup aswell.
Well thanks for having me, joe,it's good to be with you, and
you know we were talking aboutfailure and why that's a word
that entrepreneurs have such adifficult time like saying and
(00:58):
facing.
In fact, as I've invited otherfounders to join the podcast,
they're initially they're like,yeah, I'll be open and
vulnerable, and then I might geta call or a text late at night
and they're like, hey, I'm notquite ready to talk about it and
they're just not ready to maybeadmit that there's some
finality to the word failure andthey're not ready to admit that
maybe this is the end of theroad for a business or a startup
(01:21):
that they've been working on.
Joe (01:25):
Why do you think entrepreneurs struggle with this
word?
I think part of it comes fromthe different dynamics that you
have to create for the differentaudiences that you need to be
on for.
So when you're in front of yourteam with employees, people
that you work with regularly,they need to know that it's okay
to make mistakes, and that wordfailure can be really strong
(01:46):
and punishing.
Um can end with another F wordlike fired, you know.
And so creating safety isprobably one of the reasons why
entrepreneurs are scared of it.
They want to create safety forothers, and so by talking about
their failures as learnings, asopposed to failures, it
hopefully creates safety forpeople to make mistakes and
learn from those mistakes andcontinue to move forward.
(02:10):
You need to project outconfidence to investors.
So you've got your employees,you've got investors, and then
you've got your customers aswell, and so, even preparing to
come talk to you today, I wasthinking okay, what would
potential customers and currentcustomers think if they heard
the podcast and realized how bigof a failure I regularly am?
(02:31):
Would that reduce confidencefor those customers?
Would investors be less likelyto give me money?
Would employees feel as safeand confident in what they're
working on giving their heartand soul and energy to and so
there's just these differentcontexts that you live in and
(02:53):
and um.
So I think you just keep it toyourself.
You just every day you justbeat yourself up and like, why
am I such a failure?
Steve (03:00):
Yeah, that's.
This is why I love talking toyou, because that's so
reflective and I think it's soaccurate.
And the question is areentrepreneurs and founders that
talk about failure openly andthat are open and vulnerable,
does it actually have theopposite effect?
Does it create more confidencein customers and employees and I
don't know, and maybe investors, and maybe the word failure has
(03:24):
too much finality to it andthat's why people just never
want to say it.
Joe (03:29):
Completely agree.
Yeah, I think that you know.
I've got this vulnerabilitykind of diagram that I draw on
the board sometimes and on thefar right is your board meeting,
and then on the far left isyour therapist and the
vulnerability continuum is whatit is.
(03:49):
It goes across that and I usedto treat everyone like my
therapist from a vulnerabilityperspective and go all the way
far left every single time, nomatter what.
Go to the board meeting, let'sgo far left.
With my wife, let's go far left, and with my friends, let's go
far left.
And the wake-up call was whenmy wife told me someone that
(04:10):
I've been married to for 17years at that point and she says
I can't go far left with youanymore.
Your therapist is there for youand your coach is there for you,
and your coach is there for youjust a little bit right of that
.
And then I'm there for you,just right of that.
(04:31):
But get your crap together withthem and then let's go
vulnerable where you need me,where you need me specifically
so this vulnerability continuumis fascinating to me.
Steve (04:44):
Where are we on that continuum today?
Joe (04:47):
Um, we're definitely kind of at that spouse to coach level
.
We're not going to go therapydeep.
Steve (04:54):
Someone once said the name of this should be like
entrepreneur therapy podcast.
Joe (04:58):
Yeah, I think, yeah, we won't go, we won't go there.
I won't need the Kleenex overthere, but uh, but we can.
Steve (05:05):
we can go to places for sure well, thank you for being
open to have this conversation.
You have a very interestingcareer journey and I want I want
you to talk a little bit aboutsome of the opportunities, that
kind of that you that were infront of you, that you didn't
take along the way, um, and Iwouldn't maybe frame those as
failures, but I think they'reinteresting nonetheless as we
(05:28):
think about your, your careerjourney and arc.
Joe (05:31):
Yeah, so they might be major potential financial
moments that I failed to takeadvantage of yeah.
And in hindsight you know wecould put whatever story we want
on it.
But, um, I actually got firedfrom my first job out of school,
so I worked for Entrata, whichwas Property Solutions.
At the time I was their 27themployee and I went a year with
(05:55):
them and flew out to India andjust did a lot of really cool
things.
Steve (05:59):
In a product role correct .
Joe (06:01):
Uh-huh, and their first like project manager.
Okay.
So I sat right next to DaveBateman and building this
company Product role, correct,uh-huh, and their first project
manager.
Okay.
So I sat right next to DaveBateman and building this
company and Johnny Hanna andBrett Weber some really great
folks who've gone on to somegreat careers.
And one day the CEO is sayinghey, you're the best hire I've
(06:23):
ever made.
And then two weeks later I comeback from India and he asks me
to come to his office andthere's a box there, an actual
cardboard box there, and he saysjust put your stuff in there
and this is the end of the road.
So appreciate the work you'vedone here.
(06:43):
I said can I get my picturesoff the laptop?
And he said, no, bj's alreadywiped it, so and carry my things
in a box.
No, just, you know there wassome explanation.
I think I wanted to be the CEOtoo which isn't probably
terribly surprising consideringyou can go on this
entrepreneurship journey and hetold me that I was unemployable
(07:08):
and he meant it as a compliment.
And since then I've been ableto use that as a compliment for
others as well who really havethat aspiration to really like
lead and build and do their ownthing.
But at the time it was amiserable failure.
I'm sitting there with a box ofmy things and you like kind of
glance up behind your shoulderand you see all your friends
like in the second story window,like trying not to get caught
(07:31):
watching you cry your way toyour car, you know.
And I called my wife and I saidyou married the wrong person.
I'm just a complete, a completefailure, wow.
And she said come home.
So I came home and she said whydon't you write him a letter?
(07:52):
Just write everything thatyou're feeling and thinking,
write him a letter.
So I write this letter to Davethe CEO, and it's two pages,
front and back.
And then she just grabs thematches and said let's light it
on fire and then let's put thisbehind us wow and uh yeah, tell
(08:12):
me how that felt yeah, it was.
It was really amazing.
It was, uh, we talked aboutfailure is finality and um it.
It really allowed me to justlike acknowledge I failed at
this and it is over and there isno going back and there is
(08:34):
nothing that I could say or dothat would change it.
Steve (08:38):
So, um, so, let's talk about so you get fired from your
first job.
Joe (08:43):
You, you know where what next so the university I was
attending, um, had an incrediblecareer center.
Nobody takes advantage of like26 counselors just ready to sit
down with you and like, do allthese assessments and give you
the best counseling ever.
Nobody takes advantage of it.
So I go in there and I tellthem I just got fired and they
(09:05):
give me three differentassessments and they said, if
you take these three assessments, you'll get an hour appointment
with one of our counselors.
And they said that 90% ofpeople never come back.
I go home immediately, take theassessments, immediately come
back, they sit down, they goover it all with me and they say
you really have a propensity tobe an entrepreneur.
Have you thought aboutentrepreneurship?
(09:25):
And I said, yeah, I have my ownbusiness that I ran and that I
sold.
It was a tiny little business.
We sold for $30,000.
And they said, well, you shouldgo to a business plan
competition.
So I went to the mobile appsbusiness plan competition on the
campus of BYU and a bunch ofpeople presented and one of them
(09:48):
was a diagramming softwarecompany and I got really excited
about this because I had beenworking as a project manager for
a fortune 500 company and I'dbeen using Visio.
I was the only person I knewwho used Visio and it's this
diagramming tool.
And, uh, I was like holy crap,this is going to change
(10:08):
everything.
And so I walk up to, uh, BenDiltz and Daryl Swain and I say
I'll do anything to join Luciduh software.
At the time there were just twoof them and, uh, there's
actually a third one, kimmyOrton, who no one knows about.
She was leading marketing atthe time and I just begged my
(10:29):
way in and they said, well, meetus in the tax lab next week and
we'll talk about it.
And we spent an hour togetherand they said, well, what can
you do?
I said I can do whatever youwant me to do.
And so they let me jump in.
And so I was the fourth personwith Lucid Software.
Did you have?
Steve (10:45):
stock options.
Joe (10:46):
I had no idea what this was .
I didn't know I should ask forthem.
I didn't know stock optionsexisted.
I didn't know what a startupwas, and so I jumped in with
them.
And then Ben and Daryl hadsigned up for a business plan
(11:10):
competition or a pitchcompetition with Funding
Universe.
Brock Blake was running thiscompany called Funding Universe.
Now it's Lendio.
Steve (11:17):
It's like progressed all the way I was there the day he
started or took over FundingUniverse Amazing.
Joe (11:23):
Just imagine all of the angels that are currently
investing in startups here inUtah.
They were all there back in2009.
And one of the people who wasthere and I went there because
Ben and Daryl wanted to go toclass.
Like we can't skip class to goto this pitch competition, so I
go pitch Lucid too.
Some of the ones I remember RobWebker, who's up at the?
(11:46):
U now, and, uh, john richardsand then carl sun so went table
to table with an actual physicalcard deck pitching lucid five
minute timers, switch tablesyeah, there's carl.
Steve (12:01):
Remember that speed dating event for angel investors
and dCs and entrepreneurs.
I remember that well.
Joe (12:06):
And I told Carl the story of how Google was going to
acquire Lucid, and that was abold story to tell someone who
was the first intellectualproperty attorney for Google who
opened the China office.
Steve (12:21):
Did you know this when you told him that I had no idea
who this was?
That's amazing, and I'm justlike google's gonna buy us.
Joe (12:27):
It's gonna be amazing.
He comes up after he hands mehis card and he says you got
some of the details of yourstory wrong, but I really want
to learn more about your companywow and his card said the
letter k at googlecom with aline through it and it said
carlson at gmailcom.
So sorry, carl, people haveyour email address.
(12:49):
Probably could have figured itout anyway.
But we met with him overbreakfast the next morning and
he became the ceo of lucid chartyeah, which has become?
multi-billion dollar market capcompany.
It's's amazing.
Steve (13:04):
We shared an office with them and I just saw they had a
climbing wall in the lobby oftheir office and they were just
growing and growing and growingover the last several years.
Joe (13:13):
And I had a job offer at Accenture and I talked to Dave
Groh about it and I was like youjust came from consulting what
should.
I do.
He's the CEO now, lucid, andhe's like well, here's what I,
here's what was my experience atBain, and and, uh, here's what
you could learn there and here'swhat you could learn here.
And he's very kind and Darylhad, without permission,
probably, offered me 10% ofLucid to stay.
Steve (13:36):
And you said no, because you wanted to be a consultant.
Joe (13:39):
I said no, because I wanted to be a consultant at Accenture
.
There's more to the story,though, because I was also
interviewing at the time withQualtrics and Dan Watkins was
leading a little just a littlesales team there at the time.
He's now done some really greatthings and traveled all over
the world with Qualtrics andbuilt up really large sales
engines and go-to-market enginesReally talented.
Steve (13:58):
Yeah, the single most successful.
I mean.
Lucid has been wildlysuccessful and Qualtrics is the
single most successful businessever started in Utah.
But those are probably the topthree or four or five.
Joe (14:09):
Yeah, and so we've got yeah we've got Property Solutions.
That got fired.
Entrada.
Steve (14:15):
Entrada is a multi-billion dollar company,
Lucid 10%, that might be worth afew bucks today.
Yeah, then Qualtrics, qualtricsWas there an offer there?
Joe (14:23):
Yeah.
So Dan brought me in.
He showed me his, his machinethat he was building at a
go-to-market engine and offeredme a job on a sales team.
And the final interview waswith Ryan Smith and I go into
Ryan's office and it's got likepictures of Pebble Beach and all
the golf courses he loves.
Steve (14:37):
For those of you tuning in from outside of Utah, ryan
Smith now owns the Utah Jazz andthe NHL hockey team.
He's kind of a big deal, yeah.
So what did Ryan say?
Joe (14:48):
What was that like?
He put his feet up on his deskand he's just the most confident
person I've ever met.
Just said, steve, in threeyears I will have made you a
millionaire.
I can guarantee you that.
And if you do not take this job, you will regret it for the
rest of your life.
Steve (15:08):
Wow.
Joe (15:10):
And I walked out of the office I got on my little flip
phone and called my wife and Isaid we're moving to DC and she
said you didn't get the job.
I said, no, I got the job, butI don't know that I want to work
for qualtrics wow so.
Steve (15:32):
So looking back, he was right he was right.
Joe (15:35):
I would have been probably.
He was right about the moneybut was he right about that?
Steve (15:39):
it was that it would be the biggest regret of your life.
Joe (15:41):
I haven't thought about working for Qualtrics again in
terms of like I wish I wouldhave since, and that's like,
absolutely Like.
I think everyone respects whatRyan has done in Utah for the
Utah community and he's done itthe right way.
Steve (15:58):
But it wasn't your path, it wasn't me.
Joe (16:00):
It wasn't me and there's like why look back?
You know?
Steve (16:04):
Now would you consider that a failure or just a missed
opportunity, or or neither.
Joe (16:10):
I mean, for me, um, failures are real, but they get.
They get packaged up intosuccess eventually.
That's right.
And so, like I'm not in thischair if it's not for all of
those things, and this is whereI want to be- right now.
Steve (16:28):
So you leave consulting and you find yourself in
Instructure.
What was your role there?
And I think this was your firstexperience with failure.
Joe (16:36):
Yeah, and it's interesting that you say your first real
experience with failure, because, professionally, to really fail
you've got to put it on theline, you've got to take a shot.
You know, and up into that, upto that point in my career, I
was mostly taking shots onbehalf of others, you know, it's
(16:58):
like it was their thing.
And, uh, this was the firsttime that I really had some true
ownership and stake in what Iwas building.
And it started as just a normallittle product manager but, uh,
but was given an opportunity tobuild a product from zero to
one inside of this big corporateenvironment, which is a really
(17:19):
unique opportunity.
So you've got this big publiclytraded company and they say, hey
, here's a little bit of a blankcheck, go build something.
And you have just a blankcanvas to paint on.
And so at that point you reallyare, you're putting it out
there and if it screws up thenit becomes your failure.
And so we built this productand we took it from zero to one
(17:44):
million in revenue and it waspart of a bigger, broader suite
of things.
And I was initially justleading this one product and
then I went into productmarketing and then into strategy
and then started to work withthe sales team, um, and we just
kept pouring money into thisplatform and Tens of millions.
(18:09):
Uh, we're talking hundreds.
Steve (18:11):
Hundreds of millions, low hundreds, low hundreds, yeah,
but an incredible amount ofcapital.
Joe (18:16):
It's a nine-figure investment for sure in this new
product and you know, likecommercially not a success,
whether it was a success forInstructure is another question
because it really created a moreaddressable market for them $50
(18:37):
billion TAM instead of a $1billion TAM and so that helped
with the IPO and a lot ofnarrative and there's all sorts
of ways you could spin it into asuccess for Instructure, but
for me, I was flying around theworld trying to convince people
to use this product and I hadput my heart, soul, blood, sweat
(18:59):
, tears and I mean thatliterally into this product.
In fact, if we want to getreally really vulnerable while
flying, if we want to get reallyreally vulnerable While flying
in 2019,.
Steve (19:18):
I went on 26 trips to, I think, eight countries Every
other week.
Joe (19:21):
you're on the road, Sometimes multiple times in a
week, and in the process of thatI ended up perforating my
septum.
Down the middle of my nosethere's a hole.
Steve (19:33):
Wow, how did that happen?
Joe (19:36):
It's just a lot of congestion inside planes and a
lot of challenge there that endsup you end up with a hole down
the middle of your nose and somepeople have it.
Some people have a perforatedseptum and you'll never know who
they are, because it's one ofthe most embarrassing things
ever, but it's probably mybiggest failure is that I did
(19:56):
something to my body that cannotbe repaired.
Steve (19:59):
What's up, phil fans?
You know, as we've listened toso many guests on this podcast,
that the road to success isoften paved with failure, with a
lot of challenges and evenfull-on face plants.
But there's a thing that youcould do to help skip some of
those bumps and bruises, andthat's really where the
consultants at Amplio come in.
See, amplio offers fractionalexecutives in finance, marketing
(20:22):
and HR, and these are peoplewho've experienced a lot.
They've been in the trenches,they've built businesses,
they've failed.
But here's the kicker They'velearned from those failures and
now they're applying all thatwisdom to your business to
support you.
So you don't have to learn thehard way.
I mean, think about it.
Instead of stumbling around inthe dark and hoping you don't
hit the wall, you could bringsomeone in who's already mapped
(20:45):
out that room right.
Amplio consultants and expertshave worked with and for
numerous companies of all sizesand they've gathered insights on
what works and where to focusand how to actually grow your
business efficiently.
So while we embrace failure onthis podcast, there is no rule
that says you have to fail ateverything yourself.
So check out Amplio and see howtheir fractional executives can
(21:08):
help your business move forwardand avoid those painful
learning curves.
Sometimes the smartest move islearning from someone else's
failure.
Visit Ampliocom to learn more.
So you're traveling a ton,you're selling this product, and
what was the success rate there?
Joe (21:26):
I mean, obviously you've spent a hundred, a hundred
million plus I mean, mean wewere basically losing always
really yeah, our win rate wasunder 10 and, uh, our enterprise
win rate was under five percentand it was being pitched as an
enterprise play that would endup expanding our market
(21:46):
significantly, and so everythingfelt like it was resting on
these big deals.
We're flying out to a globalpharmaceutical company in
Switzerland and then in NewJersey, and then we're flying to
a telecom company in Seattleand these big global brands, and
we're spending tens ofthousands of dollars on these
(22:08):
dinners and events and for thesesingular deals.
Steve (22:13):
And they're not buying.
Joe (22:13):
And every single time we're coming home empty.
Steve (22:16):
Empty handed yeah.
Joe (22:21):
I mean, how does that feel?
I mean, I remember, I remembercoming home and just like lying
on the floor in my bedroom andjust like weeping my bedroom and
just like weeping, and Rebecca,my wife, had to remind me, like
this is not all yours to carry.
There are 300 other peopleworking on bridge and it's not
(22:46):
your fault, and why do?
Steve (22:50):
you think you took so much ownership.
Mm-hmm and.
Joe (22:54):
Why do you think you took so much ownership?
Some of it's probably arrogance.
You kind of think you're moreimportant than you are.
Yeah, and I think that's in somany things that we do that you
could single-handedly yeah.
Steve (23:06):
Like help this company succeed, but if it failed, it
was also squarely on yourshoulders, yeah.
And yours alone.
Yeah.
Joe (23:13):
So there's a little bit of that.
There is an element of whoevertells the best and loudest
stories gets to lead sometimes,and that was a little bit of
what I was doing Telling reallygreat stories, Inspiring people
to keep going, People sayingthis isn't working Steve, I need
to go find something else andme saying we're almost there.
Steve (23:38):
Yeah, which is like that's the strength of the
entrepreneurial leader right Tobe able to inspire others to
come along on these journeys.
That are irrational sometimesand the signals are all around
us that this may not work asintended, but it takes that kind
of founder mentality eventhough you weren't the founder,
you were behaving as such toreally keep people working and
(24:02):
inspired and motivated to helphopefully get this to the finish
line.
Joe (24:08):
And that was the first time .
I love that you say that,because that was the first time
in my career that I was facedwith a decision of failure or
quitting.
I love this, so talk to me aboutthe difference, the way I
defined it at that point was Iwant to either fail or succeed,
(24:34):
but not quit, and so I will stayhere until they ask me to leave
, or it is successful, and thatdecision was one of the most
empowering decisions of myentire career, to where you just
look it straight in the eyefailure or whatever it is and
(24:57):
you just say I don't care, I'mcoming for you.
Steve (25:01):
I'll take either outcome, but what I won't take is
quitting I won't take quitting,I won't stop because if I stop,
then for sure I'll fail.
But if I keep at it, thenyou've reconciled yourself to
the fact that maybe this doesn'tturn out, but there's a chance
that well was it.
Was it the hope that thesuccess was still possible?
Joe (25:21):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I thought right until rightuntil the last day we'd find
some way to make it work, younever doubted.
I mean.
Steve (25:29):
I mean you've certainly you've had along the way you're
like this is hard, but you keptthe hope.
Joe (25:35):
It's interesting to hold two things in your hand at once,
this tension that it's about tobe over yes, completely zero,
and it's about to become thebiggest thing ever, and to hold
them both equally, with respect,at the same time.
Steve (25:53):
So what was the outcome?
How did that end for you?
Joe (25:55):
What did the it was similar to the Entrata story.
I was told that Instructure wasgoing to be bought by private
equity.
Yep.
And that they were going todivest the corporate business
(26:16):
and because of that, the folkswho were invested in growing
that business at the timeinnovating, creating new things
around it, trying to get intonew markets were no longer
needed.
And so here is your parachute,and there's this really cool
(26:37):
plaque I think it's Billie JeanKing in the stadium where the US
Open tennis is played.
It says pressure is a privilege.
I think that for some reasonthat's popping into my head that
failure is similar.
Sure, it's a bit of a privilege.
(26:57):
Because quitting is notdishonorable.
It's not.
There are so many reasons whyyou should quit on something.
It's impacting your mentalhealth.
It's impacting the things thatare more important to you in
your life personally, yourfamily.
All sorts of reasons that arevalid and and being able to say
I'm going to go to the end is aprivilege to where I had the
(27:20):
financial position, the supportof my family.
Steve (27:23):
And you did right to the end.
You know, curiously, I I'm oneof our we're using bridge, like
in the in the firm that I'm atnow, we use bridge, and so every
time I log into that platform,I think about you.
Joe (27:37):
That's cool.
So, and what's interesting isthat my whole career has been in
technology and, uh, you've usedthe piece of technology that is
the most popular about bridge,which is a deck of cards, and so
in that journey, there weremany successes, but it is
(27:58):
unequivocally a failure for mepersonally.
In my career, I set out to dosomething and was, without a
doubt, unsuccessful in what Iset out to do.
Steve (28:12):
Yeah, it's a great story to remind us all that it's not
just founders and you are afounder and a CEO now but it's
not just the person who startsthe business, right?
In fact, my biggest failurestory was a company that I
didn't start but I was the CEOof, and I felt the same level of
ownership and responsibilityand stewardship as a CEO of a
(28:35):
company that I didn't start, asmost founders feel, and I think
you operate that same way.
You were operating as an owner,even though you weren't, and
you internalized that wholeexperience in a way that's very
founder-like, and maybe you areunemployable, but in the best
(28:56):
way.
So you took this experience andyou said I'm going to do it on
my own right, and you're likeI'm going to do something new,
this is my opportunity, I'mgoing to take the shot.
And you started Campfire.
Was it Campfire on day one?
Joe (29:10):
No, it was called Book Club .
That's right, that's right.
And how's it going?
Steve (29:19):
And can I just say I've been a customer of Campfire and
it's had a few evolutions.
Right, the business has evolvedand I've watched that firsthand
.
But love the mission and lovethe product and you know that
I've been a vocal advocate forwhat you've built.
But it hasn't been easy,Adoption hasn't been easy and
(29:40):
timing is a key part of theentrepreneurial journey and
whether it's a success or afailure, and your timing has
been a little off, A little off.
Joe (29:48):
Yeah yeah, we were two years late to predict a global
pandemic, so bummer.
Yeah.
Would have been nice if we knewthat was coming, would have
started a little sooner.
And then HR technology has hadtwo down years for the first
(30:08):
time in 30 years.
They haven't had a down year.
That market has not had a downyear in 30 years and then two in
a row.
And people are not asinterested as they once were in
developing leaders and peopleinside of their companies, and
so timing has been a challenge.
I think that as a whole, it isthe most successful thing that
(30:37):
I've ever done.
I feel like it's impacted morepeople positively than anything
I've done.
When you work on something thatscales to millions let's say
Lucid or Instructure Canvasmillions of people use it.
I think canvas is a top 10 webproperty by visits because so
(30:58):
many students use it soregularly every day my kids are
logging in.
Steve (31:02):
They have to use it.
Joe (31:03):
You know it is a massive success.
The actual impact it has oneach of your kids they're not
like canvas changed my life.
You know.
Campfire has gone to a depth ofactually impacting people in a
way.
That has been something I'mvery proud of.
But it's been built.
It's basically a success builtout of failures and just failure
(31:29):
after failure after failureafter failure.
We had1.2 million in contractsout at the end of 2003, 2023.
And I cannot express to you thelevel of pain from email after
email after email after emailsaying we've frozen budgets.
(31:53):
We're kind of taking a look atthe economy.
There's a lot of layoffs coming.
We're just going to have topull out here and to go from
that level of feeling successfulto zero that quickly is so
(32:17):
painful.
So, but we're still alive.
You know, five years in and Idon't know like, I don't think
it's a success to compareyourself to others.
So, looking at the stats andsaying, oh, guess what, only 2%
of startups make it five years,we've succeeded.
(32:39):
That's not success.
Your startup, like you're notentitled to a startup.
Like startups, the entire worldis engineered with antibodies
everywhere to destroy startups.
Startups are viruses, they are.
The whole system is designedfor you to fail, and so nobody
(33:06):
owes you anything, and sosuccess is not making it five
years or six years or sevenyears or continuing to raise
money or any of that sort ofthing.
You need to actually putsomething in the world that's
valuable and impactful andsustainable, and so the number
of companies that actually aresuccessful by that definition is
(33:27):
very small.
Very.
So we're all failing.
Steve (33:33):
Yeah, we don't talk about it in those terms.
Yeah, but talk to me about yourdefinition of success, because
the other thing that is soimpactful for me to hear, um and
thank you, just thank you forbeing so real, because we have
all felt, um, those moments ofprobably despair is the word
when things seem to be goingwell and then a turn of a market
(33:55):
right, you know, the economyshifts, competitive dynamic,
changes the landscape, itchanges our business, it changes
our trajectory in ways that arejarring to us, and requires us
to lay off employees, andrequires us to pivot and to
figure out how to capitalize abusiness in a difficult market.
(34:15):
And so, just like I think,entrepreneurs take great heart
in knowing that they're not theonly ones that have felt this
and have received that emailfrom a client that has canceled
a contract.
So, thank you, and I want totalk about how you define
success, though, because one ofthe things that you said so
beautifully was that you feellike this has been the most
(34:37):
successful chapter of yourcareer, and that's not measured
by an $8 billion outcome, it'snot measured by the volume of
users that were acquired on theplatform, but it sounds like
you're measuring that based onthe impact on people's lives,
and I don't want to reframefailure in a way that just makes
(34:59):
us feel better, but it's fairto say that how we define
success ultimately determineswhether or not we feel like it
was a failure or not.
So how do you define this asyour most successful moment in
your career?
Joe (35:20):
I got to know one of the founders of Instructure really
well and talked to him a lotabout this, and the people most
impacted by a startup are thatcore initial team or that core
team that takes it to whateverpoint it gets to.
their lives are changed morethan anyone's lives and then
(35:44):
their families, and then out andout and out in those circles.
If you get to the level of,let's say, apple, you actually
get to a place where it's hardto determine whether or not your
impact on the world is netnegative or net positive.
So then at that point youreally have to go back into
those inner circles to find theimpact of the company on the
(36:09):
lives of the people who areclosest to it, because you ask
any parent.
So let's say that we put alittle button here in between us
and that button would cause allof the iPhones in the world to
disappear in this moment, all ofthe smartphones.
They would all disappear.
(36:31):
How many people would pressthat button right now?
It's a lot of people.
And yet we have a trilliondollar success story in Apple.
We just have to be reallycareful with how we measure
success.
You know, like Gab, wireless isnow on a mission to eradicate
(36:57):
some of the damage caused bythese little drug boxes in our
pocket.
You know, but it's one of themost commercially successful
products ever and potentiallyone of the more destructive
pieces of technology, dependingon which way you look at it.
And you know we all have aresponsibility to use it for
good or ill and all that sort ofthing.
But it's it's really hard likeif you.
(37:19):
If you want to base it oncommercial success, I'd say
that's a little foolhardy.
If you want to base it onimpact of your technology on
other humans, I think if it evergets big enough, it will have
both a positive and a negativeimpact.
We go to Instructure.
There are so many kids who hateCanvas.
I hate Canvas.
You'll hear your kids say, andyou as a parent might even say
(37:41):
it.
It's making your life worse,harder.
I wish somebody would replacethis piece of technology, and so
you have to really go to.
For me, company building isabout creating a space for
people to be able to do the bestwork of their lives with the
best people they've ever beenwith.
(38:02):
And if you can do that, thenthat's a massive success, and if
you can do that for a long time, then even more so.
And at least 70 people havereceived some form of check and
payment from Campfire and almostall of them would say that it's
some of the best work they'vebeen able to do in their career
(38:24):
impacting other humans andbuilding something meaningful
and working together andcollaboratively in a way that
they haven't experienced before,and so, for me, that's what
it's about.
Steve (38:33):
It's one of the few platforms that I've used that
every single day, a principalthat was taught in a campfire
session when I was running anexecutive at a tech company.
I used those principals.
I think about those campfiresessions and so I can attest to
(38:57):
that.
Steve, what are the biggestlearnings If you were counseling
an entrepreneur who is facingthe potential failure of
something that they have started, or entrepreneurs thinking
about starting something?
What are the biggest lessons inyour career around
entrepreneurship, in particular,the difficulty of
entrepreneurship and howentrepreneurs can cope with the
(39:19):
roller coaster?
Joe (39:22):
Yeah, so um, first off, the big lesson of entrepreneurship
for me was taught by Horowitz ina book that I mostly hated the
Hard Thing About Hard Things.
Steve (39:31):
It's a book I gave all my employees once, as I was
shutting it down, so you lovedit.
I think there's someinteresting principles and
stories in there.
Joe (39:40):
The only thing that I remember from it now, other than
just a lot of really funstories about, other than just a
lot of really fun stories aboutbig, hard problems, is the the
part where Horowitz says I'vetalked to tons of CEOs and
there's something I've learnedtalking to CEOs the less good
(40:04):
ones, the mediocre CEOs willtalk about their successes in
terms of all of the things thatthey did to engineer that
success.
And the really truly great CEOsall say the same thing my
success is because I just didn'tquit.
And when I read that in thefirst year of starting Campfire
(40:27):
I thought I'm going to see thisto the end.
No matter what, I won't quit.
And then I started to learnabout what causes founders to
quit and founders stick longerwhen they are two things the
first, are you coachable?
And number two, do you have acoach?
(40:50):
And so I hired a coach soNathan Tanner, who was at
DoorDash and the neighbor, andhe became my coach and for three
and a half years he would coachme at least twice a month and
I'd have him on text and blow uphis phone with just like this
(41:12):
is hard, this is hard, this ishard.
help me, help me help me.
So finding that support system,because if you're going to make
it you're going to have tolearn how to not quit and you're
going to want to quit daily toweekly second year weekly to
monthly.
Third year monthly to quarterly.
(41:35):
In year four it was just acouple times, two or three times
I thought, and so far this yearI've thought about quitting
once.
Wow.
Steve (41:47):
So, success is not quitting and success is not
quitting.
Joe (41:56):
Success is not quitting.
That's one thing.
Yeah and um and uh.
In order to do that, like yousaid, coping um, you've got to
take care of your mental health.
You've got to take care of yourfamily.
Like if you start to havefamily challenges, there's
nothing that'll blow up yourability to actually focus on
what you're trying to build.
Quicker than you know, I'veruined my marriage, or you know,
(42:18):
these important relationshipsthat you have in your life start
to dissipate and dissolve andyou're going to screw up your
startup and so, taking care ofyour family, taking care of your
mental health, there is a forsure valid reason to quit, and
that is if you cannot mentallyand physically continue to
sustain.
It is so much better to quityour startup than to quit.
Steve (42:44):
Yeah, I've been there.
I've been there.
Might have been healthier forme to quit, but I drove it all
the way to the end and that wasa lot of lessons along the way.
Joe (42:54):
And you know whether your coping mechanism so it goes.
Coping self-care this issomething I wanted to share.
Coping self-care purpose whatis your purpose?
Why do you exist?
Authenticity to that purpose,and then finding harmony between
the elements of your life thatare most important to you.
(43:15):
And so for me to get back towhat is success I have a purpose
, I exist too, and it's twosentences the mission I'm on,
this is where I am going, and Iwill not stop till I get there.
And so I have a professionalmission that I've written.
(43:37):
It's two sentences andeverything else is a vehicle
towards that mission, and if thevehicle burns up on the side of
the road, I'm going to go findanother one, and you know it's
going from New York to SanFrancisco.
I will make it to San Francisco.
Steve (43:55):
That's amazing.
I'm going to go home tonightand I'm going to write my
purpose and my mission again andprobably print it and tape it
to my mirror, which my wife willprobably take down, and I'll
probably have to have a littlecard in my bag to remind me.
I love that.
I love that.
I love that recommendation andthe idea of a support system.
I think having people, a coach,whatever that looks like, a
(44:18):
coach, a therapist, a friendthat you can really lean on when
things are tough, becausesometimes the entrepreneurial
journey is lonely If yousurround yourself with great
support and other leaders.
It doesn't have to be, and so Ilove that recommendation as
well.
Steve, this has been so openand authentic and insightful.
(44:41):
I've loved the conversation,the insights and perspectives
that you've shared.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Thanks for having me, joe.
Joe (44:52):
I'm Steve Arts and I failed a lot in my career, but I've
never quit.
Steve (44:57):
Thanks for tuning into the Real F Word.
The Real F Word is failure, andremember that failure is a
stepping stone, it's not just astumbling block.
Join us next time as wecontinue to explore the journey
of resilience and growth,without ignoring the true costs
personally, professionally andfinancially that comes with
failure.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep embracing the real stories
of entrepreneurship.
(45:18):
See you next time.
Steve, in three years I will have made you a millionaire
.
I can guarantee you that.
And if you do not take this job, you will regret it for the
rest of your life.
Steve (00:11):
Welcome to the Real F Word.
Welcome, steve.
I'm so happy to have you heretoday because we're going to
talk about.
I'm so happy to have you heretoday because we're going to
talk about failure.
We're going to talk about yourjourney, and you're a successful
entrepreneur, intrapreneur.
You're a successful andrespected business leader.
(00:34):
I respect you for all thatyou've built and all your wisdom
and experience, and today I'mreally looking forward to
unpacking your kind of careerarc and journey and then talking
about your latest startup aswell.
Well thanks for having me, joe,it's good to be with you, and
you know we were talking aboutfailure and why that's a word
that entrepreneurs have such adifficult time like saying and
(00:58):
facing.
In fact, as I've invited otherfounders to join the podcast,
they're initially they're like,yeah, I'll be open and
vulnerable, and then I might geta call or a text late at night
and they're like, hey, I'm notquite ready to talk about it and
they're just not ready to maybeadmit that there's some
finality to the word failure andthey're not ready to admit that
maybe this is the end of theroad for a business or a startup
(01:21):
that they've been working on.
Joe (01:25):
Why do you think entrepreneurs struggle with this
word?
I think part of it comes fromthe different dynamics that you
have to create for the differentaudiences that you need to be
on for.
So when you're in front of yourteam with employees, people
that you work with regularly,they need to know that it's okay
to make mistakes, and that wordfailure can be really strong
(01:46):
and punishing.
Um can end with another F wordlike fired, you know.
And so creating safety isprobably one of the reasons why
entrepreneurs are scared of it.
They want to create safety forothers, and so by talking about
their failures as learnings, asopposed to failures, it
hopefully creates safety forpeople to make mistakes and
learn from those mistakes andcontinue to move forward.
(02:10):
You need to project outconfidence to investors.
So you've got your employees,you've got investors, and then
you've got your customers aswell, and so, even preparing to
come talk to you today, I wasthinking okay, what would
potential customers and currentcustomers think if they heard
the podcast and realized how bigof a failure I regularly am?
(02:31):
Would that reduce confidencefor those customers?
Would investors be less likelyto give me money?
Would employees feel as safeand confident in what they're
working on giving their heartand soul and energy to and so
there's just these differentcontexts that you live in and
(02:53):
and um.
So I think you just keep it toyourself.
You just every day you justbeat yourself up and like, why
am I such a failure?
Steve (03:00):
Yeah, that's.
This is why I love talking toyou, because that's so
reflective and I think it's soaccurate.
And the question is areentrepreneurs and founders that
talk about failure openly andthat are open and vulnerable,
does it actually have theopposite effect?
Does it create more confidencein customers and employees and I
don't know, and maybe investors, and maybe the word failure has
(03:24):
too much finality to it andthat's why people just never
want to say it.
Joe (03:29):
Completely agree.
Yeah, I think that you know.
I've got this vulnerabilitykind of diagram that I draw on
the board sometimes and on thefar right is your board meeting,
and then on the far left isyour therapist and the
vulnerability continuum is whatit is.
(03:49):
It goes across that and I usedto treat everyone like my
therapist from a vulnerabilityperspective and go all the way
far left every single time, nomatter what.
Go to the board meeting, let'sgo far left.
With my wife, let's go far left, and with my friends, let's go
far left.
And the wake-up call was whenmy wife told me someone that
(04:10):
I've been married to for 17years at that point and she says
I can't go far left with youanymore.
Your therapist is there for youand your coach is there for you,
and your coach is there for youjust a little bit right of that
.
And then I'm there for you,just right of that.
(04:31):
But get your crap together withthem and then let's go
vulnerable where you need me,where you need me specifically
so this vulnerability continuumis fascinating to me.
Steve (04:44):
Where are we on that continuum today?
Joe (04:47):
Um, we're definitely kind of at that spouse to coach level
.
We're not going to go therapydeep.
Steve (04:54):
Someone once said the name of this should be like
entrepreneur therapy podcast.
Joe (04:58):
Yeah, I think, yeah, we won't go, we won't go there.
I won't need the Kleenex overthere, but uh, but we can.
Steve (05:05):
we can go to places for sure well, thank you for being
open to have this conversation.
You have a very interestingcareer journey and I want I want
you to talk a little bit aboutsome of the opportunities, that
kind of that you that were infront of you, that you didn't
take along the way, um, and Iwouldn't maybe frame those as
failures, but I think they'reinteresting nonetheless as we
(05:28):
think about your, your careerjourney and arc.
Joe (05:31):
Yeah, so they might be major potential financial
moments that I failed to takeadvantage of yeah.
And in hindsight you know wecould put whatever story we want
on it.
But, um, I actually got firedfrom my first job out of school,
so I worked for Entrata, whichwas Property Solutions.
At the time I was their 27themployee and I went a year with
(05:55):
them and flew out to India andjust did a lot of really cool
things.
Steve (05:59):
In a product role correct .
Joe (06:01):
Uh-huh, and their first like project manager.
Okay.
So I sat right next to DaveBateman and building this
company Product role, correct,uh-huh, and their first project
manager.
Okay.
So I sat right next to DaveBateman and building this
company and Johnny Hanna andBrett Weber some really great
folks who've gone on to somegreat careers.
And one day the CEO is sayinghey, you're the best hire I've
(06:23):
ever made.
And then two weeks later I comeback from India and he asks me
to come to his office andthere's a box there, an actual
cardboard box there, and he saysjust put your stuff in there
and this is the end of the road.
So appreciate the work you'vedone here.
(06:43):
I said can I get my picturesoff the laptop?
And he said, no, bj's alreadywiped it, so and carry my things
in a box.
No, just, you know there wassome explanation.
I think I wanted to be the CEOtoo which isn't probably
terribly surprising consideringyou can go on this
entrepreneurship journey and hetold me that I was unemployable
(07:08):
and he meant it as a compliment.
And since then I've been ableto use that as a compliment for
others as well who really havethat aspiration to really like
lead and build and do their ownthing.
But at the time it was amiserable failure.
I'm sitting there with a box ofmy things and you like kind of
glance up behind your shoulderand you see all your friends
like in the second story window,like trying not to get caught
(07:31):
watching you cry your way toyour car, you know.
And I called my wife and I saidyou married the wrong person.
I'm just a complete, a completefailure, wow.
And she said come home.
So I came home and she said whydon't you write him a letter?
(07:52):
Just write everything thatyou're feeling and thinking,
write him a letter.
So I write this letter to Davethe CEO, and it's two pages,
front and back.
And then she just grabs thematches and said let's light it
on fire and then let's put thisbehind us wow and uh yeah, tell
(08:12):
me how that felt yeah, it was.
It was really amazing.
It was, uh, we talked aboutfailure is finality and um it.
It really allowed me to justlike acknowledge I failed at
this and it is over and there isno going back and there is
(08:34):
nothing that I could say or dothat would change it.
Steve (08:38):
So, um, so, let's talk about so you get fired from your
first job.
Joe (08:43):
You, you know where what next so the university I was
attending, um, had an incrediblecareer center.
Nobody takes advantage of like26 counselors just ready to sit
down with you and like, do allthese assessments and give you
the best counseling ever.
Nobody takes advantage of it.
So I go in there and I tellthem I just got fired and they
(09:05):
give me three differentassessments and they said, if
you take these three assessments, you'll get an hour appointment
with one of our counselors.
And they said that 90% ofpeople never come back.
I go home immediately, take theassessments, immediately come
back, they sit down, they goover it all with me and they say
you really have a propensity tobe an entrepreneur.
Have you thought aboutentrepreneurship?
(09:25):
And I said, yeah, I have my ownbusiness that I ran and that I
sold.
It was a tiny little business.
We sold for $30,000.
And they said, well, you shouldgo to a business plan
competition.
So I went to the mobile appsbusiness plan competition on the
campus of BYU and a bunch ofpeople presented and one of them
(09:48):
was a diagramming softwarecompany and I got really excited
about this because I had beenworking as a project manager for
a fortune 500 company and I'dbeen using Visio.
I was the only person I knewwho used Visio and it's this
diagramming tool.
And, uh, I was like holy crap,this is going to change
(10:08):
everything.
And so I walk up to, uh, BenDiltz and Daryl Swain and I say
I'll do anything to join Luciduh software.
At the time there were just twoof them and, uh, there's
actually a third one, kimmyOrton, who no one knows about.
She was leading marketing atthe time and I just begged my
(10:29):
way in and they said, well, meetus in the tax lab next week and
we'll talk about it.
And we spent an hour togetherand they said, well, what can
you do?
I said I can do whatever youwant me to do.
And so they let me jump in.
And so I was the fourth personwith Lucid Software.
Did you have?
Steve (10:45):
stock options.
Joe (10:46):
I had no idea what this was .
I didn't know I should ask forthem.
I didn't know stock optionsexisted.
I didn't know what a startupwas, and so I jumped in with
them.
And then Ben and Daryl hadsigned up for a business plan
(11:10):
competition or a pitchcompetition with Funding
Universe.
Brock Blake was running thiscompany called Funding Universe.
Now it's Lendio.
Steve (11:17):
It's like progressed all the way I was there the day he
started or took over FundingUniverse Amazing.
Joe (11:23):
Just imagine all of the angels that are currently
investing in startups here inUtah.
They were all there back in2009.
And one of the people who wasthere and I went there because
Ben and Daryl wanted to go toclass.
Like we can't skip class to goto this pitch competition, so I
go pitch Lucid too.
Some of the ones I remember RobWebker, who's up at the?
(11:46):
U now, and, uh, john richardsand then carl sun so went table
to table with an actual physicalcard deck pitching lucid five
minute timers, switch tablesyeah, there's carl.
Steve (12:01):
Remember that speed dating event for angel investors
and dCs and entrepreneurs.
I remember that well.
Joe (12:06):
And I told Carl the story of how Google was going to
acquire Lucid, and that was abold story to tell someone who
was the first intellectualproperty attorney for Google who
opened the China office.
Steve (12:21):
Did you know this when you told him that I had no idea
who this was?
That's amazing, and I'm justlike google's gonna buy us.
Joe (12:27):
It's gonna be amazing.
He comes up after he hands mehis card and he says you got
some of the details of yourstory wrong, but I really want
to learn more about your companywow and his card said the
letter k at googlecom with aline through it and it said
carlson at gmailcom.
So sorry, carl, people haveyour email address.
(12:49):
Probably could have figured itout anyway.
But we met with him overbreakfast the next morning and
he became the ceo of lucid chartyeah, which has become?
multi-billion dollar market capcompany.
It's's amazing.
Steve (13:04):
We shared an office with them and I just saw they had a
climbing wall in the lobby oftheir office and they were just
growing and growing and growingover the last several years.
Joe (13:13):
And I had a job offer at Accenture and I talked to Dave
Groh about it and I was like youjust came from consulting what
should.
I do.
He's the CEO now, lucid, andhe's like well, here's what I,
here's what was my experience atBain, and and, uh, here's what
you could learn there and here'swhat you could learn here.
And he's very kind and Darylhad, without permission,
probably, offered me 10% ofLucid to stay.
Steve (13:36):
And you said no, because you wanted to be a consultant.
Joe (13:39):
I said no, because I wanted to be a consultant at Accenture
.
There's more to the story,though, because I was also
interviewing at the time withQualtrics and Dan Watkins was
leading a little just a littlesales team there at the time.
He's now done some really greatthings and traveled all over
the world with Qualtrics andbuilt up really large sales
engines and go-to-market enginesReally talented.
Steve (13:58):
Yeah, the single most successful.
I mean.
Lucid has been wildlysuccessful and Qualtrics is the
single most successful businessever started in Utah.
But those are probably the topthree or four or five.
Joe (14:09):
Yeah, and so we've got yeah we've got Property Solutions.
That got fired.
Entrada.
Steve (14:15):
Entrada is a multi-billion dollar company,
Lucid 10%, that might be worth afew bucks today.
Yeah, then Qualtrics, qualtricsWas there an offer there?
Joe (14:23):
Yeah.
So Dan brought me in.
He showed me his, his machinethat he was building at a
go-to-market engine and offeredme a job on a sales team.
And the final interview waswith Ryan Smith and I go into
Ryan's office and it's got likepictures of Pebble Beach and all
the golf courses he loves.
Steve (14:37):
For those of you tuning in from outside of Utah, ryan
Smith now owns the Utah Jazz andthe NHL hockey team.
He's kind of a big deal, yeah.
So what did Ryan say?
Joe (14:48):
What was that like?
He put his feet up on his deskand he's just the most confident
person I've ever met.
Just said, steve, in threeyears I will have made you a
millionaire.
I can guarantee you that.
And if you do not take this job, you will regret it for the
rest of your life.
Steve (15:08):
Wow.
Joe (15:10):
And I walked out of the office I got on my little flip
phone and called my wife and Isaid we're moving to DC and she
said you didn't get the job.
I said, no, I got the job, butI don't know that I want to work
for qualtrics wow so.
Steve (15:32):
So looking back, he was right he was right.
Joe (15:35):
I would have been probably.
He was right about the moneybut was he right about that?
Steve (15:39):
it was that it would be the biggest regret of your life.
Joe (15:41):
I haven't thought about working for Qualtrics again in
terms of like I wish I wouldhave since, and that's like,
absolutely Like.
I think everyone respects whatRyan has done in Utah for the
Utah community and he's done itthe right way.
Steve (15:58):
But it wasn't your path, it wasn't me.
Joe (16:00):
It wasn't me and there's like why look back?
You know?
Steve (16:04):
Now would you consider that a failure or just a missed
opportunity, or or neither.
Joe (16:10):
I mean, for me, um, failures are real, but they get.
They get packaged up intosuccess eventually.
That's right.
And so, like I'm not in thischair if it's not for all of
those things, and this is whereI want to be- right now.
Steve (16:28):
So you leave consulting and you find yourself in
Instructure.
What was your role there?
And I think this was your firstexperience with failure.
Joe (16:36):
Yeah, and it's interesting that you say your first real
experience with failure, because, professionally, to really fail
you've got to put it on theline, you've got to take a shot.
You know, and up into that, upto that point in my career, I
was mostly taking shots onbehalf of others, you know, it's
(16:58):
like it was their thing.
And, uh, this was the firsttime that I really had some true
ownership and stake in what Iwas building.
And it started as just a normallittle product manager but, uh,
but was given an opportunity tobuild a product from zero to
one inside of this big corporateenvironment, which is a really
(17:19):
unique opportunity.
So you've got this big publiclytraded company and they say, hey
, here's a little bit of a blankcheck, go build something.
And you have just a blankcanvas to paint on.
And so at that point you reallyare, you're putting it out
there and if it screws up thenit becomes your failure.
And so we built this productand we took it from zero to one
(17:44):
million in revenue and it waspart of a bigger, broader suite
of things.
And I was initially justleading this one product and
then I went into productmarketing and then into strategy
and then started to work withthe sales team, um, and we just
kept pouring money into thisplatform and Tens of millions.
(18:09):
Uh, we're talking hundreds.
Steve (18:11):
Hundreds of millions, low hundreds, low hundreds, yeah,
but an incredible amount ofcapital.
Joe (18:16):
It's a nine-figure investment for sure in this new
product and you know, likecommercially not a success,
whether it was a success forInstructure is another question
because it really created a moreaddressable market for them $50
(18:37):
billion TAM instead of a $1billion TAM and so that helped
with the IPO and a lot ofnarrative and there's all sorts
of ways you could spin it into asuccess for Instructure, but
for me, I was flying around theworld trying to convince people
to use this product and I hadput my heart, soul, blood, sweat
(18:59):
, tears and I mean thatliterally into this product.
In fact, if we want to getreally really vulnerable while
flying, if we want to get reallyreally vulnerable While flying
in 2019,.
Steve (19:18):
I went on 26 trips to, I think, eight countries Every
other week.
Joe (19:21):
you're on the road, Sometimes multiple times in a
week, and in the process of thatI ended up perforating my
septum.
Down the middle of my nosethere's a hole.
Steve (19:33):
Wow, how did that happen?
Joe (19:36):
It's just a lot of congestion inside planes and a
lot of challenge there that endsup you end up with a hole down
the middle of your nose and somepeople have it.
Some people have a perforatedseptum and you'll never know who
they are, because it's one ofthe most embarrassing things
ever, but it's probably mybiggest failure is that I did
(19:56):
something to my body that cannotbe repaired.
Steve (19:59):
What's up, phil fans?
You know, as we've listened toso many guests on this podcast,
that the road to success isoften paved with failure, with a
lot of challenges and evenfull-on face plants.
But there's a thing that youcould do to help skip some of
those bumps and bruises, andthat's really where the
consultants at Amplio come in.
See, amplio offers fractionalexecutives in finance, marketing
(20:22):
and HR, and these are peoplewho've experienced a lot.
They've been in the trenches,they've built businesses,
they've failed.
But here's the kicker They'velearned from those failures and
now they're applying all thatwisdom to your business to
support you.
So you don't have to learn thehard way.
I mean, think about it.
Instead of stumbling around inthe dark and hoping you don't
hit the wall, you could bringsomeone in who's already mapped
(20:45):
out that room right.
Amplio consultants and expertshave worked with and for
numerous companies of all sizesand they've gathered insights on
what works and where to focusand how to actually grow your
business efficiently.
So while we embrace failure onthis podcast, there is no rule
that says you have to fail ateverything yourself.
So check out Amplio and see howtheir fractional executives can
(21:08):
help your business move forwardand avoid those painful
learning curves.
Sometimes the smartest move islearning from someone else's
failure.
Visit Ampliocom to learn more.
So you're traveling a ton,you're selling this product, and
what was the success rate there?
Joe (21:26):
I mean, obviously you've spent a hundred, a hundred
million plus I mean, mean wewere basically losing always
really yeah, our win rate wasunder 10 and, uh, our enterprise
win rate was under five percentand it was being pitched as an
enterprise play that would endup expanding our market
(21:46):
significantly, and so everythingfelt like it was resting on
these big deals.
We're flying out to a globalpharmaceutical company in
Switzerland and then in NewJersey, and then we're flying to
a telecom company in Seattleand these big global brands, and
we're spending tens ofthousands of dollars on these
(22:08):
dinners and events and for thesesingular deals.
Steve (22:13):
And they're not buying.
Joe (22:13):
And every single time we're coming home empty.
Steve (22:16):
Empty handed yeah.
Joe (22:21):
I mean, how does that feel?
I mean, I remember, I remembercoming home and just like lying
on the floor in my bedroom andjust like weeping my bedroom and
just like weeping, and Rebecca,my wife, had to remind me, like
this is not all yours to carry.
There are 300 other peopleworking on bridge and it's not
(22:46):
your fault, and why do?
Steve (22:50):
you think you took so much ownership.
Mm-hmm and.
Joe (22:54):
Why do you think you took so much ownership?
Some of it's probably arrogance.
You kind of think you're moreimportant than you are.
Yeah, and I think that's in somany things that we do that you
could single-handedly yeah.
Steve (23:06):
Like help this company succeed, but if it failed, it
was also squarely on yourshoulders, yeah.
And yours alone.
Yeah.
Joe (23:13):
So there's a little bit of that.
There is an element of whoevertells the best and loudest
stories gets to lead sometimes,and that was a little bit of
what I was doing Telling reallygreat stories, Inspiring people
to keep going, People sayingthis isn't working Steve, I need
to go find something else andme saying we're almost there.
Steve (23:38):
Yeah, which is like that's the strength of the
entrepreneurial leader right Tobe able to inspire others to
come along on these journeys.
That are irrational sometimesand the signals are all around
us that this may not work asintended, but it takes that kind
of founder mentality eventhough you weren't the founder,
you were behaving as such toreally keep people working and
(24:02):
inspired and motivated to helphopefully get this to the finish
line.
Joe (24:08):
And that was the first time .
I love that you say that,because that was the first time
in my career that I was facedwith a decision of failure or
quitting.
I love this, so talk to me aboutthe difference, the way I
defined it at that point was Iwant to either fail or succeed,
(24:34):
but not quit, and so I will stayhere until they ask me to leave
, or it is successful, and thatdecision was one of the most
empowering decisions of myentire career, to where you just
look it straight in the eyefailure or whatever it is and
(24:57):
you just say I don't care, I'mcoming for you.
Steve (25:01):
I'll take either outcome, but what I won't take is
quitting I won't take quitting,I won't stop because if I stop,
then for sure I'll fail.
But if I keep at it, thenyou've reconciled yourself to
the fact that maybe this doesn'tturn out, but there's a chance
that well was it.
Was it the hope that thesuccess was still possible?
Joe (25:21):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I thought right until rightuntil the last day we'd find
some way to make it work, younever doubted.
I mean.
Steve (25:29):
I mean you've certainly you've had along the way you're
like this is hard, but you keptthe hope.
Joe (25:35):
It's interesting to hold two things in your hand at once,
this tension that it's about tobe over yes, completely zero,
and it's about to become thebiggest thing ever, and to hold
them both equally, with respect,at the same time.
Steve (25:53):
So what was the outcome?
How did that end for you?
Joe (25:55):
What did the it was similar to the Entrata story.
I was told that Instructure wasgoing to be bought by private
equity.
Yep.
And that they were going todivest the corporate business
(26:16):
and because of that, the folkswho were invested in growing
that business at the timeinnovating, creating new things
around it, trying to get intonew markets were no longer
needed.
And so here is your parachute,and there's this really cool
(26:37):
plaque I think it's Billie JeanKing in the stadium where the US
Open tennis is played.
It says pressure is a privilege.
I think that for some reasonthat's popping into my head that
failure is similar.
Sure, it's a bit of a privilege.
(26:57):
Because quitting is notdishonorable.
It's not.
There are so many reasons whyyou should quit on something.
It's impacting your mentalhealth.
It's impacting the things thatare more important to you in
your life personally, yourfamily.
All sorts of reasons that arevalid and and being able to say
I'm going to go to the end is aprivilege to where I had the
(27:20):
financial position, the supportof my family.
Steve (27:23):
And you did right to the end.
You know, curiously, I I'm oneof our we're using bridge, like
in the in the firm that I'm atnow, we use bridge, and so every
time I log into that platform,I think about you.
Joe (27:37):
That's cool.
So, and what's interesting isthat my whole career has been in
technology and, uh, you've usedthe piece of technology that is
the most popular about bridge,which is a deck of cards, and so
in that journey, there weremany successes, but it is
(27:58):
unequivocally a failure for mepersonally.
In my career, I set out to dosomething and was, without a
doubt, unsuccessful in what Iset out to do.
Steve (28:12):
Yeah, it's a great story to remind us all that it's not
just founders and you are afounder and a CEO now but it's
not just the person who startsthe business, right?
In fact, my biggest failurestory was a company that I
didn't start but I was the CEOof, and I felt the same level of
ownership and responsibilityand stewardship as a CEO of a
(28:35):
company that I didn't start, asmost founders feel, and I think
you operate that same way.
You were operating as an owner,even though you weren't, and
you internalized that wholeexperience in a way that's very
founder-like, and maybe you areunemployable, but in the best
(28:56):
way.
So you took this experience andyou said I'm going to do it on
my own right, and you're likeI'm going to do something new,
this is my opportunity, I'mgoing to take the shot.
And you started Campfire.
Was it Campfire on day one?
Joe (29:10):
No, it was called Book Club .
That's right, that's right.
And how's it going?
Steve (29:19):
And can I just say I've been a customer of Campfire and
it's had a few evolutions.
Right, the business has evolvedand I've watched that firsthand
.
But love the mission and lovethe product and you know that
I've been a vocal advocate forwhat you've built.
But it hasn't been easy,Adoption hasn't been easy and
(29:40):
timing is a key part of theentrepreneurial journey and
whether it's a success or afailure, and your timing has
been a little off, A little off.
Joe (29:48):
Yeah yeah, we were two years late to predict a global
pandemic, so bummer.
Yeah.
Would have been nice if we knewthat was coming, would have
started a little sooner.
And then HR technology has hadtwo down years for the first
(30:08):
time in 30 years.
They haven't had a down year.
That market has not had a downyear in 30 years and then two in
a row.
And people are not asinterested as they once were in
developing leaders and peopleinside of their companies, and
so timing has been a challenge.
I think that as a whole, it isthe most successful thing that
(30:37):
I've ever done.
I feel like it's impacted morepeople positively than anything
I've done.
When you work on something thatscales to millions let's say
Lucid or Instructure Canvasmillions of people use it.
I think canvas is a top 10 webproperty by visits because so
(30:58):
many students use it soregularly every day my kids are
logging in.
Steve (31:02):
They have to use it.
Joe (31:03):
You know it is a massive success.
The actual impact it has oneach of your kids they're not
like canvas changed my life.
You know.
Campfire has gone to a depth ofactually impacting people in a
way.
That has been something I'mvery proud of.
But it's been built.
It's basically a success builtout of failures and just failure
(31:29):
after failure after failureafter failure.
We had1.2 million in contractsout at the end of 2003, 2023.
And I cannot express to you thelevel of pain from email after
email after email after emailsaying we've frozen budgets.
(31:53):
We're kind of taking a look atthe economy.
There's a lot of layoffs coming.
We're just going to have topull out here and to go from
that level of feeling successfulto zero that quickly is so
(32:17):
painful.
So, but we're still alive.
You know, five years in and Idon't know like, I don't think
it's a success to compareyourself to others.
So, looking at the stats andsaying, oh, guess what, only 2%
of startups make it five years,we've succeeded.
(32:39):
That's not success.
Your startup, like you're notentitled to a startup.
Like startups, the entire worldis engineered with antibodies
everywhere to destroy startups.
Startups are viruses, they are.
The whole system is designedfor you to fail, and so nobody
(33:06):
owes you anything, and sosuccess is not making it five
years or six years or sevenyears or continuing to raise
money or any of that sort ofthing.
You need to actually putsomething in the world that's
valuable and impactful andsustainable, and so the number
of companies that actually aresuccessful by that definition is
(33:27):
very small.
Very.
So we're all failing.
Steve (33:33):
Yeah, we don't talk about it in those terms.
Yeah, but talk to me about yourdefinition of success, because
the other thing that is soimpactful for me to hear, um and
thank you, just thank you forbeing so real, because we have
all felt, um, those moments ofprobably despair is the word
when things seem to be goingwell and then a turn of a market
(33:55):
right, you know, the economyshifts, competitive dynamic,
changes the landscape, itchanges our business, it changes
our trajectory in ways that arejarring to us, and requires us
to lay off employees, andrequires us to pivot and to
figure out how to capitalize abusiness in a difficult market.
(34:15):
And so, just like I think,entrepreneurs take great heart
in knowing that they're not theonly ones that have felt this
and have received that emailfrom a client that has canceled
a contract.
So, thank you, and I want totalk about how you define
success, though, because one ofthe things that you said so
beautifully was that you feellike this has been the most
(34:37):
successful chapter of yourcareer, and that's not measured
by an $8 billion outcome, it'snot measured by the volume of
users that were acquired on theplatform, but it sounds like
you're measuring that based onthe impact on people's lives,
and I don't want to reframefailure in a way that just makes
(34:59):
us feel better, but it's fairto say that how we define
success ultimately determineswhether or not we feel like it
was a failure or not.
So how do you define this asyour most successful moment in
your career?
Joe (35:20):
I got to know one of the founders of Instructure really
well and talked to him a lotabout this, and the people most
impacted by a startup are thatcore initial team or that core
team that takes it to whateverpoint it gets to.
their lives are changed morethan anyone's lives and then
(35:44):
their families, and then out andout and out in those circles.
If you get to the level of,let's say, apple, you actually
get to a place where it's hardto determine whether or not your
impact on the world is netnegative or net positive.
So then at that point youreally have to go back into
those inner circles to find theimpact of the company on the
(36:09):
lives of the people who areclosest to it, because you ask
any parent.
So let's say that we put alittle button here in between us
and that button would cause allof the iPhones in the world to
disappear in this moment, all ofthe smartphones.
They would all disappear.
(36:31):
How many people would pressthat button right now?
It's a lot of people.
And yet we have a trilliondollar success story in Apple.
We just have to be reallycareful with how we measure
success.
You know, like Gab, wireless isnow on a mission to eradicate
(36:57):
some of the damage caused bythese little drug boxes in our
pocket.
You know, but it's one of themost commercially successful
products ever and potentiallyone of the more destructive
pieces of technology, dependingon which way you look at it.
And you know we all have aresponsibility to use it for
good or ill and all that sort ofthing.
But it's it's really hard likeif you.
(37:19):
If you want to base it oncommercial success, I'd say
that's a little foolhardy.
If you want to base it onimpact of your technology on
other humans, I think if it evergets big enough, it will have
both a positive and a negativeimpact.
We go to Instructure.
There are so many kids who hateCanvas.
I hate Canvas.
You'll hear your kids say, andyou as a parent might even say
(37:41):
it.
It's making your life worse,harder.
I wish somebody would replacethis piece of technology, and so
you have to really go to.
For me, company building isabout creating a space for
people to be able to do the bestwork of their lives with the
best people they've ever beenwith.
(38:02):
And if you can do that, thenthat's a massive success, and if
you can do that for a long time, then even more so.
And at least 70 people havereceived some form of check and
payment from Campfire and almostall of them would say that it's
some of the best work they'vebeen able to do in their career
(38:24):
impacting other humans andbuilding something meaningful
and working together andcollaboratively in a way that
they haven't experienced before,and so, for me, that's what
it's about.
Steve (38:33):
It's one of the few platforms that I've used that
every single day, a principalthat was taught in a campfire
session when I was running anexecutive at a tech company.
I used those principals.
I think about those campfiresessions and so I can attest to
(38:57):
that.
Steve, what are the biggestlearnings If you were counseling
an entrepreneur who is facingthe potential failure of
something that they have started, or entrepreneurs thinking
about starting something?
What are the biggest lessons inyour career around
entrepreneurship, in particular,the difficulty of
entrepreneurship and howentrepreneurs can cope with the
(39:19):
roller coaster?
Joe (39:22):
Yeah, so um, first off, the big lesson of entrepreneurship
for me was taught by Horowitz ina book that I mostly hated the
Hard Thing About Hard Things.
Steve (39:31):
It's a book I gave all my employees once, as I was
shutting it down, so you lovedit.
I think there's someinteresting principles and
stories in there.
Joe (39:40):
The only thing that I remember from it now, other than
just a lot of really funstories about, other than just a
lot of really fun stories aboutbig, hard problems, is the the
part where Horowitz says I'vetalked to tons of CEOs and
there's something I've learnedtalking to CEOs the less good
(40:04):
ones, the mediocre CEOs willtalk about their successes in
terms of all of the things thatthey did to engineer that
success.
And the really truly great CEOsall say the same thing my
success is because I just didn'tquit.
And when I read that in thefirst year of starting Campfire
(40:27):
I thought I'm going to see thisto the end.
No matter what, I won't quit.
And then I started to learnabout what causes founders to
quit and founders stick longerwhen they are two things the
first, are you coachable?
And number two, do you have acoach?
(40:50):
And so I hired a coach soNathan Tanner, who was at
DoorDash and the neighbor, andhe became my coach and for three
and a half years he would coachme at least twice a month and
I'd have him on text and blow uphis phone with just like this
(41:12):
is hard, this is hard, this ishard.
help me, help me help me.
So finding that support system,because if you're going to make
it you're going to have tolearn how to not quit and you're
going to want to quit daily toweekly second year weekly to
monthly.
Third year monthly to quarterly.
(41:35):
In year four it was just acouple times, two or three times
I thought, and so far this yearI've thought about quitting
once.
Wow.
Steve (41:47):
So, success is not quitting and success is not
quitting.
Joe (41:56):
Success is not quitting.
That's one thing.
Yeah and um and uh.
In order to do that, like yousaid, coping um, you've got to
take care of your mental health.
You've got to take care of yourfamily.
Like if you start to havefamily challenges, there's
nothing that'll blow up yourability to actually focus on
what you're trying to build.
Quicker than you know, I'veruined my marriage, or you know,
(42:18):
these important relationshipsthat you have in your life start
to dissipate and dissolve andyou're going to screw up your
startup and so, taking care ofyour family, taking care of your
mental health, there is a forsure valid reason to quit, and
that is if you cannot mentallyand physically continue to
sustain.
It is so much better to quityour startup than to quit.
Steve (42:44):
Yeah, I've been there.
I've been there.
Might have been healthier forme to quit, but I drove it all
the way to the end and that wasa lot of lessons along the way.
Joe (42:54):
And you know whether your coping mechanism so it goes.
Coping self-care this issomething I wanted to share.
Coping self-care purpose whatis your purpose?
Why do you exist?
Authenticity to that purpose,and then finding harmony between
the elements of your life thatare most important to you.
(43:15):
And so for me to get back towhat is success I have a purpose
, I exist too, and it's twosentences the mission I'm on,
this is where I am going, and Iwill not stop till I get there.
And so I have a professionalmission that I've written.
(43:37):
It's two sentences andeverything else is a vehicle
towards that mission, and if thevehicle burns up on the side of
the road, I'm going to go findanother one, and you know it's
going from New York to SanFrancisco.
I will make it to San Francisco.
Steve (43:55):
That's amazing.
I'm going to go home tonightand I'm going to write my
purpose and my mission again andprobably print it and tape it
to my mirror, which my wife willprobably take down, and I'll
probably have to have a littlecard in my bag to remind me.
I love that.
I love that.
I love that recommendation andthe idea of a support system.
I think having people, a coach,whatever that looks like, a
(44:18):
coach, a therapist, a friendthat you can really lean on when
things are tough, becausesometimes the entrepreneurial
journey is lonely If yousurround yourself with great
support and other leaders.
It doesn't have to be, and so Ilove that recommendation as
well.
Steve, this has been so openand authentic and insightful.
(44:41):
I've loved the conversation,the insights and perspectives
that you've shared.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Thanks for having me, joe.
Joe (44:52):
I'm Steve Arts and I failed a lot in my career, but I've
never quit.
Steve (44:57):
Thanks for tuning into the Real F Word.
The Real F Word is failure, andremember that failure is a
stepping stone, it's not just astumbling block.
Join us next time as wecontinue to explore the journey
of resilience and growth,without ignoring the true costs
personally, professionally andfinancially that comes with
failure.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep embracing the real stories
of entrepreneurship.
(45:18):
See you next time.
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Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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