8. What Defines You? From Startup Struggle to Venture Capitalist Success | Kristy Muir - The Real F Word

Episode Transcript
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Joe Grover (00:01):
Welcome to the Real F Word.
I'm so delighted to haveChristy Muir here on the podcast
today, and Christy has anincredible story.
She has incredible experience.
She's a venture capitalinvestor with Pellion, which is
an amazing early stage andgrowth investor that I've known

(00:22):
for many years, and so we'redelighted to hear her
perspective on her journey, herentrepreneurial journey and as
an investor.
So, christy, great to have youon the podcast.

Kristy Muir (00:31):
Thanks for having me.
I'm really happy to be here andit's a really cool setup.

Joe Grover (00:35):
You know, sometimes you meet people and you hear
their stories and you're justinspired and you're really
impacted.
And that happened when, in fact, I think we've met once, once
or twice At least I've heard youspeak once or twice.
But the second time was in youroffice just a handful of weeks
ago and you shared your kind ofjourney and there was two, three

(00:56):
hundred, maybe two hundredpeople in the room.

There was a lot of people there.
I wasn't expecting that.

Joe Grover (01:00):
And I sat there and I was like Christy is going to
be the next guest on the F wordpodcast.
That's how impactful it was,and so I am so grateful you're
willing to to share that withwith our audience.

Well, thank you.
I think like it's always avulnerable thing to share your
story, especially when, like alittle bit of it is personal, or
a lot of bit of it, I shouldsay.
But I think what makes it worthit is knowing that it resonates
with people and that it ishelpful.
So thank you so much for havingme.

Joe Grover (01:26):
Thank you.
Tell me a little bit about whatdefines you, Like we.
Just, we were chatting beforewe started and you said I don't
want to be known for my failures, and I don't think any of us do
.
And I said what do you want tobe known for?

That's a great question.
I think I turned 40 this monthand I think I am kind of going
through that classic midlife,like you know, reflecting on the
first half of my life andthinking about the next half of
my life and I think that thethings that I want to be known
for like I care most about whatmy girls think about me, I care

(02:02):
most about what my family thinksabout me, I care that I have,
um authentic relationships withcolleagues and peers and
community, and I think that,like, if there was anything that
I hope I'm known for, that Iwould like to be known for, um
is probably just being ahardworking, smart, authentic,
sincere person.

(02:22):
I think, like, at the end ofthe day, that's, that's great.

Joe Grover (02:27):
That, um, there's been.
I've had a bunch of loss in mylife this this year and some
there's been some businessleaders who have tragically
passed and I've reflected onthis.
The same question is like atthe end, like what do I want
people to tell, say at myfuneral, and um, you're only 40,

(02:48):
so you've got four years to go.
But I think it's a greatquestion.
Tell me a little bit about yourjourney and you had definitely
especially early on.
There was a failure that kindof defined you, a personal and
professional failure, and I wantto hear that story from you in
your own words.

Yeah, and first I would preface it I believe that
if you're not failing at leastonce a day, you're doing life
wrong.
So maybe there was one failureearly on that defined, but I
could probably sit and talkabout many failures.
But most people, when they askme this question about my
failures or life or career, Ialways start by saying that so
much of my personal life haspredicated my professional life,

(03:24):
and so before I talk about myprofessional life and some of
the wins, I actually have totalk about the failures and some
of the really hard things I'vebeen through personally, because
that really is what has, it'swhat's determined my outcome
really, and I think that peoplealways ask me how did you do it?
And when people ask me, how didyou do it, what they mean is

(03:46):
how did you go from being afull-time single mom with full
financial, physicalresponsibility of your girls on
welfare?
My girls were sleeping on thebed next to they, were sleeping
on the ground next to the bed.
You know had little pull-outmats next to the bed and I was
man.
I was in a really tough spotand how did you go from that to

(04:07):
exiting your startup, which I doconsider myself a failed
startup, but I did exit, I didsail.
How did you become an executive?
And then how did you getrecruited by a top tier venture
capital fund?
And it has been, it's been ajourney.

Joe Grover (04:22):
It's an incredible journey and we're.
It's right around the holidaysand you shared a story that was
pretty personal, yeah, when youwent to, kind of I think you
were buying gifts and you founda tree at Target.
Can you reshare that?
I was trying to trying to buygifts and it was Walmart.

I didn't have money enough for Target.
Actually that was anyways Okay.
I didn't have money enough forTarget.
Actually that was anyways OK.
So, yeah, so I you know therewas something that happened in
my personal life that I realizedvery quickly, overnight that I
needed to remove my girls and Ifrom a pretty tough situation

(05:05):
and I had a few hundred dollarsin my bank account.
I was in the middle of tryingto build my startup so equity
doesn't put food on the tableand very quickly had to figure
out some hard things.
And as I was kind of navigatingthat Christmas was upcoming and
you know I really I didn't havemoney for the girls for
Christmas.
At that point I was trying tosign up for welfare.
I was, which, if anybody's beenthrough that process, there is.

(05:31):
There is sort of like a littlebit of time in between
everything until it kicks in and, yeah, christmas is upcoming
and if you're a parent and ifyou've ever tried to provide for
your kids or Christmas or theholidays tradition, it feels
pretty bad to know that you'renot going to be able to provide
that, and especially like ourfirst Christmas alone and with
kind of some traumatic thingsthat had happened.
It was just a really hard timeand I think it was.

(05:52):
It was either the day or twobefore Christmas, but the week
of Christmas, when everything'son clearance, right, and I just
decided that I had to figuresomething out for the girls and
so I put them in the car myyoungest was just a baby at that
point and we went to Walmartdowntown Salt Lake City and you

(06:12):
know we're trying to look forlittle trinkets or things we
could find and we went to theclearance section and we found
the coolest find of all time.
We found a pink tinselChristmas tree, six feet, on
sale for about $30.
And I knew that I couldprobably spend about $50 and be
okay to make it to the followingweek.
And so we got that pink tinselChristmas tree.

(06:34):
We went to the dollar sectionand got little, you know, bobble
, plastic ornaments and right aswe walked out, my oldest
daughter.
She saw this LED light up starfor the top of the tree and you
know, I knew, I knew when I sawthe look on her face that I had
to get it was like twentydollars, it was as much as the

(06:55):
tree, practically Right.
Anyways, we, we ended upgetting that.
We had a beautiful Christmas.
I still have that tree.
It's set up in my house rightnow.
I think my girls would be verymad if I tried to get rid of it,
because it's so symbolic ofsomething so beautiful which is,
you know, you don't need a lotto be happy, and I think it's a
good reminder to me that there'slight on the other side of of

(07:18):
really hard things.
Um yeah, I love that tree.

Joe Grover (07:25):
Yeah, I've thought about that pink tinsel tree
since I first heard you sharethat story.
It was really impactful and Iappreciate you sharing it today.
You said that you, that firststartup right, Was a failure,
even though you did exit Yep.
Um, why do you consider it afailure?

Yeah, so I think that, um, you know, my world is
venture capital and venturecapital has phenomenal PR and
typically the exits that we seein venture and that is, I think,
for many people what weperceive like to be successful
is like a venture exit, whichthat's kind of another can of
worms we could get into, becausethere's lots of different ways

(08:00):
to build a business.
And so I think that you know, inmy mind I was really hoping for
a bigger exit.
I was, I was hoping to kind ofrevolutionize STEM and STEAM for
kids and make it reallymainstream.
This is back before coding andcomputer science, and you know
that wasn't anything that wasreally common or mainstream and

(08:22):
so I didn't have the impact Ithink that I hoped I would have,
and also it was not like alife-changing wealth sort of
outcome.
And I think for a lot of people, when we think about building a
startup and exiting a startup,I think that that's what we
think of.
And so, while I did build it,it's still being used in the
wild today, which is incredible.
I have an issued patent and Idid sell it.

(08:44):
It wasn't like the kind of exitthat you would have maybe
expected and while I maybefailed.
It honestly changed my life andput me on the trajectory that
you know gave me everything Ihave today.

Joe Grover (08:58):
So how did that experience unlock the next
opportunity and prepare you toreally I mean, it was pretty
meteoric, right Like your risethrough the ranks at some really
esteemed tech companies here inUtah is impressive and is a
credit to your resilience, yourhard work and your acumen and
intelligence.
But how did that experience setyou up for the next 10 years?

Yeah, oh, that's a great question.
I would actually have to goeven prior to the startup.
So I'm a classically trainedconcert pianist and so my brain
thinks in a very, veryprogrammatic way, almost like an
engineer, even though I'm notan engineer like I get how
engineers think and my brainthinks in a very similar way,
and so I think, when I wasbuilding my startup, I realized

(09:45):
that how my brain thinks andprocesses information lends very
well to building a business.
I also, I think, with the music, learned discipline at a really
young age and so learning howto sit with something, figure
something out, you know, buildsomething with an end goal in
mind, and working your waybackwards, it all just like

(10:06):
clicked for me and I think thatmy startup was like.
It was like the playground, thepractice, the.
It was like the opportunity forme to exercise and further
develop that skill set.
That, I think, really set thetone for the rest of my career.

Joe Grover (10:21):
Do you think that's a pattern you've seen with other
successful entrepreneurs?
Does it take a lap around thetrack before you kind of hit
your rhythm?
Do you need to have this kindof playground and try your hand
at something?
Maybe it has a negative outcomeor a positive outcome, but
maybe it's not the home run.
Do you feel like it takes alittle bit of practice before
you're really dialed in for thebig swing?

Oh, that's.
I have so many.
Uh, I have a few differentthoughts.
First, like nobody, like mostpeople I shouldn't say nobody, I
think most people it's not likea meteoric rise for most people
.
I think we just don't see allof the work and failures that
are behind that rise, or theperceived rise.
You know, um, and so I.

(11:03):
I do think that for most peopleit takes a lap around.
I think it takes the playground.
I mean, that's, everybody hasto learn, you know, and some
people are just, I guess, likeborn brilliant or born with it.
But I think most people do haveto.
They have to put in the hours.

Joe Grover (11:21):
Yeah, I was having a conversation yesterday.
I was in the very early days, Iwas in an incubator and one of
my partners was Brock Blake,who's the CEO of Lendio, and
he's still the CEO and I've beenthrough three or four startups
since Brock took over FundingUniverse and then it became
Lendio.
And every time I meet Brock I'mlike it's just stunning to see
that was kind of his firstentrepreneurial endeavor and and

(11:43):
he's still at it, right, andthat that staying power is
unusual.
Because I look at all the otherpartners, all the other
entrepreneurs we worked with inthis incubator and we've all
been, you know, through two,three, four different.
It was kind of the origincompany and you grow it and it's
, you know, the longevity andthe staying power.

I don't know why that is one person's journey and
another person's journey is notthat.
But I really do believe that weall have our unique path and

(12:21):
our unique journey and what I doknow is that I'm very grateful
and I would not trade myexperiences or my failures or my
hard things for anybody else'sif it meant a different outcome,
Like I feel very, very gratefulfor the hard things and the
failures because I feel gratefulfor my life and what it is
today.
You know.

Joe Grover (12:39):
What are some other principles of music that you
apply daily as a venturecapitalist, and maybe you apply
it as an operator?

How do you eat an elephant?

Joe Grover (12:48):
That's a principle of music.

It is.
It's actually probably one ofthe best ones that my music
teachers taught me.

Joe Grover (12:54):
Wow, tell me about that.

Well, how do you eat an elephant?
How would you eat?
an elephant, one bite at a time.
Imagine, you know, being 14years old and needing to learn
two to three hours of memorized.
You know repertoire for aperformance.
You have, you know, a 30 pageconcerto, like.
How do you learn that?
And I think so often in life weget so overwhelmed by whatever

(13:18):
daunting thing is in front of us, front of us, and I learned at
a really young age that you justtake it one bite at a time and
you start literally one note ofone measure, two notes of one
measure, one hand, and you, youknow you do one measure, one
hand, all the notes, and thenyou learn the other hand, all of
that, and then you put ittogether and then you memorize

(13:41):
it and then you move on to thenext measure.
And so, if you can imagine,like hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of measures, that'swhat you're doing for hours.
How do you eat an elephant, andthat's how I face, honestly,
most daunting things in my lifeis just one step at a time.

Joe Grover (13:57):
So that is so interesting.
I started playing guitar againafter 22 years and I had like a
list of 20 songs that I wantedto learn and I was like I sat
down and of course I startedwith like the most difficult
classic rock song I could find.
I was like this is never goingto happen and I definitely felt
like, okay, I'm just going toplay that first measure over and

(14:17):
over and over again until itsounds good.
And then I moved to the nextmeasure and it took me about a
year and I learned my first 20songs.
And then I bought, I moved tothe next measure and it took me
about a year and I learned myfirst 20 songs, yep.
And then I bought a FenderStratocaster my dream guitar
from my childhood.
So I am not a very good musicianyeah, but I can understand that
principle and how it wouldapply to entrepreneurship and
venture capital.

(14:38):
And life, yeah, and life, yeah,tell me about.
You said there's been manyfailures along the way.
First of all, as you exitedyour first startup.
Yeah, tell me about thetransition into kind of a larger
tech company.

Yeah.
So I did know that I needed tohave something more substantial
to provide for my girls and Iand and I had met I mean, I knew
many of the founders in thecommunity just you know, from
building and I had always reallyliked Kat Kat Kennedy, and
she's a GP at Kickstart and Katactually gave me my first job

(15:12):
after my startup at DeGreed andit was in product operations.
I also knew Dave Blake, the CEOthere, and I was doing some
special projects for him.
And I think the transition forme like there's nothing that
there's a quote, there's nothingthat quickens the mind like
being dead in the morning, and Ithink for me like the

(15:48):
transition was great some of thepersonal stuff and really gave
me a place to unravel some ofthat and start building my
career.
And so, yeah, I feel reallygrateful for that and it was
exciting.
I think I was 90 somethingemployee by the time I left.
They were, I want to say, like650.
Um, so it was really cool to,you know, work with different

(16:09):
teams and see product operationsand product development and,
you know, go to market and Ireally was just exposed to a lot
of different things and I wasallowed to wear a lot of
different hats, which lent wellto kind of the startup
entrepreneur in myself, and soit was an incredible, incredible
experience.

Joe Grover (16:29):
There was failures along the way, at least
challenges.
Yeah, what was the mostdifficult situation you found
yourself in at DeGreed?

That's a great question.
I think that, and this is justa very honest answer.
This is the first thing thatcomes to my mind.
I think that I had a little bitof hubris.

Joe Grover (16:52):
Because you were founder.

Yeah, and so I think that and you know,
hindsight's always 20-20.
I think there were some thingsthat maybe I was right about and
then, you know, with my manager, I think there were some things
that I could have approacheddifferently.
But because I didn't haveprevious professional experience
, I maybe didn't know how tobest like approach those
situations Um and um.

(17:16):
So I think just learning how tonavigate an org in a very
professional way, that was likean incredible learning
experience for me at DeGreed.

Joe Grover (17:28):
You left DeGreed and you head over to Instructure.

Yeah, so I was actually on a steering committee
for Dave and on that steeringcommittee I met Jared Stein, who
was the senior vice presidentof strategy at Instructure and
he's a brilliant, very kindhuman if you've ever met him and
he was kind of sharing some ofwhat was going on at Instructure
and told me I should check itout.
And so I did and I ended upgetting hired at Instructure to

(17:54):
run global strategy andoperations, which I told you
before this I was probably notqualified to do, and they hired
me and I feel so gratefulbecause I crushed it and it
totally changed.
I think I credit that to reallychanging the trajectory of my
career.
Um, and it was an incredibleexperience, incredible team
opportunity, the learning it was.

(18:15):
It was really fun.

Joe Grover (18:16):
Tell me that that was a tough situation and share
what you can.

Yeah.

Joe Grover (18:21):
Um, we had another entrepreneur on this podcast
talking about the same businessthe bridge business and
structure but it was not doingwell.

It was not doing well Most.
Of this is public, but and Ithink it was- not doing as well
as even what people thought itwas doing.
So I was part of the executiveteam that was brought in under
the management of Toma to turnthings around and to get bridge,
in particular, in a positionwhere it could be acquired by a
private equity company orreceive investment, or you know.

(18:50):
We weren't quite sure of theoutcome, and so, while I was,
they had plowed tons of moneyinto tons of money into bridge.
And at that point, like it wasgenerating revenue but not what
you would expect it to begenerating.
And while I was in thisdiligence process so I was I was
for the operations and strategyrole.
I was managing relationshipswith the banker, the buyer, I

(19:13):
was working with the financeteams, I was working with every
department head and reallyworking to turn around some of
the operations.
And as I was doing this, Idiscovered that some of the data
that was being reported forrevenue for bridge was being
reported inaccurately and thatwas really scary.

(19:33):
And I had a mentor tell me youknow, like true, and we were in
the middle of acquisition andmeeting with these potential
buyers, and to go say thatsomething had been misreported
and then change the managementdeck it changes the models Like
it was a very scary position tobe in.
I had a mentor say you know,truth tellers are rewarded and
maybe it's not now but later,but like it's really important
to tell the truth.

(19:53):
And so I had to go to thepresident, ceo and the board and
I had to report what I hadfound.
And they looked at me and therewas one word two words that
were said to me fix it and I'llfix it, fix it.

(20:15):
That was it.
And then I direction, nodirection.
I did you know.
So I went and I did a gapanalysis and two days later I
called my boss, crying at likenine o'clock at night and I was
like, look, I know what's wrongwith with this part of the
business and the revenue.
I have no clue how to fix it.
And, um, they ended up instructure, ended up hiring an
executive coach.
She's one of my dear friends tothis day.
She was a CMO, uh, led salesteams, revenue teams just an

(20:38):
incredible woman who's had areally successful career and she
coached me for months andhelped me turn around the
organization.
And we did sell it.
We exited that PE firm, broughtme on full time to manage a
group of portfolio companieswhere I was doing the same thing
that I ultimately turned aroundfor Instructure Bridge and it
was just.
I worked probably 80 to 100hours a week and it was

(21:03):
exhausting and trying andprobably one of the most like
taxing periods of my career andI wouldn't trade it for the
world.

Joe Grover (21:10):
Yeah yeah, that's how I feel too.
I was in a turnaround for thebetter part of a year as a CEO
and it was the most painful.
I've talked about that a lot onthe podcast.
In fact, that's the reason thispodcast exists, because at the
end of that, you know, I had toshut down the division and lay
off all the employees and it wasincredibly painful.
But it um, it defined me.
It um taught me more than anysingle success could teach me.

Agreed.
There's a uh, there's a debate.
If you learn more working at agrowth startup, you know that's
just experiencing seismic growthand incredible product market
fit.
Or you know if, working inturnaround, you would learn more
?
Most people, I think, would saygrowth.
I don't think you can actuallycompare them, but I'm curious

(21:54):
what you think.

Joe Grover (21:56):
I thought about it a ton yeah, and have been in both
.

Yeah, you've experienced both.

Joe Grover (22:02):
Certainly there's, I think, growth.
Office gates, um, just some baddecision-making or bad process,
Um, when, when you're?
You know, sometimes growththere's a tailwind and it's a
perfect product market fit andthe management team they look
like heroes.
And I've also been in companieswhere I think the management

(22:23):
team was very skilled andexperienced, well-advised, great
investors, great board members,great mentors, and we lost
product market fit.
Maybe we never had it?
Yeah, and, and you know we doall that we can, right, we apply
the same playbooks we'veapplied in previous startups in
our careers and it doesn't work.
And then we, the managementteam, looks like failures, right

(22:46):
, and we get fired.

Yeah.

Joe Grover (22:47):
And so I've seen, like I've seen both outcomes
great management teams withmaybe a market shift, maybe a
competitive dynamic or a badproduct market fit and a company
fail.
I've also seen really amazingcompanies where, when you're on
the inside, you think, well,this is a hardworking management
team, but they're not the mostsophisticated, maybe they're not

(23:09):
the most experienced andthere's tons of dysfunctionality
.

Totally Right.

Joe Grover (23:13):
And then the company goes public yeah, totally, and
no one sees that.
Right, it's so funny.
All they see is the IPO.
Yes, so for me, I've learnedprobably more in those difficult
moments and the turnaround thatI have in the growth stage.
Yeah, um, cause it's.
It's challenged us to be morecreative and pressure test our
assumptions even more and domake really difficult decisions.

There's not room for, there's really not room for
the mistake.

Joe Grover (23:38):
There's not and listen when things are going
amazing and you're growing oryou have tons of capital on the
balance sheet.
You know you can make somemistakes.
I make a wrong marketinginvestment Guess what, it
doesn't really matter.
But if I have 50 grand to spendand I spend 30 on the wrong
channel, Yep and you don'tdeliver the results, you're done
, yeah.

So what do you think?
I actually tend to agree withyou?
Yeah, I tend to agree.
I will say that, like I thinkboth offer different experiences
For me personally, like where Ireally learned how to be an
exceptional operator was doingthe hard turnaround stuff.

Joe Grover (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, I, I.
I believe that you also havehad amazing mentors that have
kind of believed in you andinvested in you.
You've mentioned three of them.
I oftentimes think, think thatthe the way to avoid the
pitfalls and make the kind ofmistakes that lead to some
failure is to lean on those thathave experience, who have
already kind of like walked thepath.
They can advise us and directus and say, hey, look over here,

(24:43):
be aware.
Like what role do you thinkmentors play in avoiding failure
?

Yeah, that's a great question.
And avoiding failure yeah,that's a great question.
And I would say first, I thinkoften that when we talk about
mentors, we always think ofpeople that are bigger and
better than ourselves, who haveexperienced it just like you
described, that have learnedthese lessons already.
I think one thing that I reallybelieve is that we don't give
enough credit to the peoplewe're growing up with.

(25:08):
Does that make sense?
People who are at similarstages in their career and
relying on them and talking withthem and hashing things out?
I would say some of thosepeople that I grew up with and
have been growing up with in mycareer to this day have become
my best friends and are actuallysome of the most valuable
mentors with what they'veexperienced at this point.
So I just want to make sure Idon't think people should ever

(25:28):
underestimate the power of justwho's working alongside them.

Joe Grover (25:33):
Yeah, your peers can be your mentors, right.

Absolutely yeah.
And just to you know, we don'talways need to be going trying
to like find somebody the 40year old venture capitalist.
There you go, man.
I got years left.
I'm a newbie, but I do thinkthat you know it's incredibly
valuable.
Lori, who was the coach that,uh, I hired it in structure,

(25:56):
like she taught me everything Iknew about turnaround, and
without that you don't learn itin school.
Um, it's not, you know, askillset that you would learn
any other way other than doingit and having somebody help you
and correct you along the way,and so I do think mentorship is
absolutely vital.
It can be hard to find thatmatch, though, where it is a

(26:18):
two-way kind of reciprocalrelationship.

Joe Grover (26:22):
For sure.
I do think that the skills thatyou learn when things are
really bad in a startup, likewhen you're forced to make the
most difficult decision layoffsand you know, and rifts and
pivots and disposition of assetsand liquidations right, those
are not skills that we learn inschool and and honestly it's,

(26:45):
it's what was the thing that wasmost difficult is when you're
fit, I mean, when you're lookingat like, getting for like, if a
lender comes and forecloses ona business, what does that look
like?
How do you navigate that?
Yeah, right.
How do you deal with creditors?
Yeah, right.
And so that's when experiencematters a lot and those mentors
like Lori are so valuable whenthings get really, really tough.
And hopefully entrepreneurslistening to the podcast will

(27:06):
never be in that position.
Yeah, that's what we hope.
We hope and likely they will be.

Yeah, I think that, yeah, very likely.

Joe Grover (27:13):
What's up, phil fans ?
You know, as we've listened toso many guests on this podcast,
that the road to success isoften paved with failure, with a
lot of challenges and evenfull-on face plants.
But there's a thing that youcould do to help skip some of
those bumps and bruises, andthat's really where the
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(28:23):
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So when we first launched thepodcast, the thesis was that
these are the stories thatentrepreneurs never talk about.
They don't want to talk aboutthem, and there's reasons for

(28:43):
that.
Why do you think entrepreneursand founders really don't want
to unpack failures publicly?

I think it probably goes back to my response to you
initially, which is, you know,I don't want to when I, when
people hear my name or I'mtalked about.
I don't want the thing thatpeople talk about me.
I don't want it to be about,like, my failures, about like,
oh, my hard life, or like avictim, or I want it to be about

(29:13):
, um, I don't know, like thethings that have a more positive
tone.
I guess you know, um, and Ithink it's hard to you know.
I think, unless you really havetime to sit with somebody and
talk through some of thosefailures, it's a highly like
personal, vulnerable thing andthere's just I don't think that
there's always situations thatfeel I think there's just so

(29:35):
many nuances that have to be inplace for somebody to feel
really comfortable to sit downand share their story, and that
that even includes where they'reat in their life at that moment
, you know, kind of being on theother side of it and maybe
feeling okay about things youknow.

Joe Grover (29:49):
Yeah, time.
I mean it took me seven yearsto publicly read my journal
entry about my colossal failure.
Yeah, so I think that's alltrue.
Do you think that investorsbecause this is the other
question, in fact, I haveanother investor on this
afternoon and the other part ofmy trailer I about entrepreneurs

(30:10):
rarely talk about these storiesand investors hide them, and
that's a little.
And again, I was in venturecapital for a while, so and I've
written those limited partnerreports and investor reports,
I've built the decks for ourlimited partner meetings and
certainly that's not how we leadout.
Hey, we know what the battingaverage is for venture capital,

(30:31):
especially at the early stage.
But how do investors do youfeel like we have a pretty good
system in venture capital andprivate equity to obscure the
failures, because, honestly, thegoal is to return investor
money and drive returns andraise subsequent funds, and

(30:53):
showcasing failures in any waydoesn't accomplish that goal.

Yeah, it's an interesting thought.
I do think that the bestinvestors, at least in their
personal relationships withtheir founders, like it would
not be good if there was nothonesty there, and so I think,
at the very least the bestinvestors I've seen, there is a
lot of honesty with the founder.
Like you're an armchairtherapist, you know, and you

(31:19):
know all of the failures andhopefully you're the first
person that that founder callswhen they're going through
something hard.
But I think what you'respeaking to is a little bit
different, which is like theexternal in the community,
whether it's to LPs, tostakeholders.
You know why we don't air thedirty laundry, and I think
that's more what you're asking.

(31:40):
Am I right?
It is, yeah, I mean, I thinkit's like I think that you could
ask the same, and you did like,as to why humans don't feel
comfortable airing the dirtylaundry.
You know, I think that some ofit is to protect, uh, the
founder and to give them spaceand time to figure it out.
I I think there's a lot ofdifferent reasons why, why

(32:02):
people do that, and then I alsothink that there is like the uh
cosmetic.
You know you don't want atarnished reputation or a you
know the perception of that.
You know.
Do you think it should change?
Do you don't want a tarnishedreputation?
Or you know the perception ofthat you know.

Joe Grover (32:14):
Do you think it should change?
Do you think there's a way that, as an investment community, we
can destigmatize failure forother entrepreneurs by and again
?
Not by throwing founders underthe bus, because oftentimes it's
not just decisions of foundersthat you know that drive to a
negative outcome for an investor.

(32:34):
But is there something we couldchange?
That we could learn about thepatterns of failure and the
things to avoid to de-risk thejourney for other founders.

Yeah, Well, yeah, that's a great question, and I
think you spoke earlier tomentorship, and I do.
I do hope and I would believeand I have seen it where
founders mentoring founders, inthat relationship they can be
honest with each other.
Do I think it should change,though?
That's the question that sticksout that you asked me.
You know, thinking back to,like my own personal crucible,

(33:07):
where I was, you know, trying tonavigate exiting my startup,
like welfare, the wholeChristmas story, like that time
in my life it would have been,and it was already kind of
public because I was starting tomeet with investors and so I
had to kind of explain somethings that were happening and
that felt really uncomfortablebecause I myself was still
trying to process and figure outand navigate what was happening

(33:30):
.
And so do I think it shouldchange for founders and
investors when there's failures.
Talking about it, I think thatwe should always be authentic, I
think we should be sincere, Ithink we should be always open
to sharing our learnings and ourfailures.
I also think that there's atime and a place to do that, and
I think you know when I thinkabout a founder, and I can only

(33:51):
imagine what somebody, if theywere going through something
similar to myself, or shuttingdown their business or going
through their own crucible, Iwould hope that they would have
the time and space to at leastnavigate that until they got to
a place where they could openly,you know, talk about it and be
honest about it.
And I guess another thought Ihave is I think that so much of

(34:12):
building trust and investing isthat relationship with the
founder and like I serve thefounder and so I think that from
my own personal perspective,like I would want to respect
their privacy and make sure thatthings were presented in the
right time and place that theyalso were comfortable with, Can
I just say thank you to thatcomment.

(34:33):
Yeah.

Joe Grover (34:34):
It's such a and it's probably not true for all
investors, but I do think it'strue for you and I know it's
true for Pellion that maybe thereason, as VCs and private
equity investors, we don't talkabout the failures as publicly
is not to protect our ownreputation, but maybe to protect
the reputation of thosefounders who really gave their

(34:54):
all, who made great sacrificesto try to win.

Nobody sees that.

Joe Grover (34:59):
And then they lost, yeah, and so I think it's a
really astute observation and Ihope that's the case and I think
it is, and you're right thatthe right time, the right place
is probably.
You know, is probably thereason why we don't hear a lot
of those stories publicly.
I hope, as I invite more andmore investors, that they'll

(35:20):
share at least stories maybeanonymized and I'm going to
invite you to do this of somecompanies that they invest in
that didn't work out, and thatwe can kind of extract some of
the learning.
The advantage you have is yousee a whole portfolio of
companies across stages, acrossindustries and geographies, and
so I think investors are in avery unique position to start to

(35:43):
identify those patterns, andpattern recognition is what
makes a great VC, and so if youcan identify what to look for
early enough, you can absolutelyimprove the outcomes for those
companies and the investmentreturns for your investors.

Yeah.

Joe Grover (35:58):
So what are and maybe you have a story you want
to share, but what are some ofthe patterns you're seeing now
in terms of companies when itdoesn't work out?
Are there two or three thingsthat you're seeing consistently
that are driving towards aoutcome where they exit at one X
or lose all of it?

Yeah, I do think that there's some common things
that contribute to failure, orjust like not as big of an exit
as we hoped, like a companysells for $200 million and
that's a phenomenal exit.

Joe Grover (36:28):
Unless they raised it a billion.
Yeah, exactly, it's allrelative.
Yeah, it is relative.

You know this might sound cliche and I do think
it's psychological, but the lackof product market fit and the
belief that you have productmarket fit, I think oftentimes
especially when I'm firstmeeting with founders like a
first, second pitch.
There's a lot of confidence andyou have to have that.
That's.

(36:53):
The irony is that a founder hasto be crazy confident, like you
want that actually, you know.

Joe Grover (36:58):
You want a little hubris.

You want the hubris .
That's the irony.
At the same time, to the pointthat that hubris blinds a
founder from seeing that theyactually don't have product
market fit, that the marketisn't desperate for what they're
trying to sell, that somethingisn't working, even talent, that
a hire that they made, you know, just isn't working for the

(37:21):
team, or I think those are someof the biggest, biggest failures
, our founders consistently, youknow, pushing things forward
when it's clearly not working.
What are those signs that it's?

Joe Grover (37:31):
clearly not working.
What are those signs thatsomething's clearly not working?
Because that's the magicquestion is like we have to
balance this kind ofperseverance, running through
walls and this kind of realismand pragmatism that says I've
tried this, I've done this andit's not driving the result.

(37:52):
I need to pivot, I need to like, stop, I need to pause.

Yeah, and I should preface this by saying that like
I'm probably wrong.
Um, I like I am not the founderbuilding a company, and so it's
easy for me to sit here and saythis, but I could probably go
find, uh, inverse examples thatprove myself wrong in saying
this.
So, for what it's worth, agrain of salt, throw it out the
window.

(38:16):
You know, I think a lot of itcomes down to when things really
work.
It usually works from thebeginning and that means, like
revenue growth getting a dollarin the door, the product
adoption, revenue growth gettinga dollar in the door, the
product adoption.
And so usually, like the bestcompanies that I've seen, and

(38:36):
even the more successfulcompanies I work with, they had
that early on.
There are some examples whereyou know founders really
persevered through it.
They didn't have that early,they pivoted, they figured it
out.
But I think the best companiesthey they really do have that
from from an early stage.
They're seeing, you know, kindof a triple, triple, double,

(38:58):
double, double revenue growth.
Or you know you could say likea 20 percent month over month
revenue growth.
They're seeing the adoptionwithin a company just very
quickly expand.
There.
They have so much demand forthe product that they can't even
keep up with it, and that youdo see that it happens.

Joe Grover (39:15):
Do you think most companies at the early stage
fell because they never figureout a way to efficiently acquire
customers, tell the story,articulate the pain, bring
customers in the door?
Or do you think they fellbecause they've kind of
over-promised andunder-delivered on the service
or product side?

I might take this a little bit of a different
direction than what you'rethinking.
Smartest product does notalways win at the end of the day
.
I think that's been reallyfascinating to see where I've
met with founders where, like,the product is brilliant and
it's solving a real problem, butfor whatever reason, it just
isn't landing.
And, as I've thought about this, I really do believe and I've
learned a lot about this fromTyler Hogue he's one of the

(39:57):
partners that are from.
He's really passionate aboutthe power of storytelling and
the best founders, um, and it'snot just selling me, the
investor, it's selling customerswhere they've identified a
problem and they have positionedit in such an intelligent,
simple way that people can't getenough.

(40:17):
And so I really do think that,um, a lot of it maybe not all of
it, but, especially early on, Ireally do think it comes back
to a strong skillset instorytelling, um and um
positioning the problem andsolution and vision to customers
and different audiences in away that resonates.

Joe Grover (40:38):
Well, I'm a chief marketing officer, so I totally
buy into this right?
Yeah, I've always said theperson, the company, the founder
that can articulate the problemthat you're solving for the ICP
or the customer in the mostcompelling and provocative and
clear way and simple way isalways the company that that
customer believes will solve theproblem.

(40:59):
It's that articulation, thatstorytelling of like you have a
pain and this is how we're goingto solve it, that earns that
early trust.
And it's not always true thatthey have the product or the
solution that actually solvesthe problem in the way that
they're describing, at least notin the first two or three or
four or five years when they'restill building it, because
they're selling it while they'rebuilding it and eventually they

(41:20):
get there if they can acquirethose early customers and
there's an efficient enoughacquisition engine Right To
drive that business forward.
So I think that's a reallyastute observation.
Is storytelling?
There's risk there as aninvestor, because the founders
that are the most articulate andcharismatic and are the best
storytellers are greatexternally right.
They pitch a great story to theinvestors as well.

(41:43):
So how do you decipher what'sstorytelling and what's reality?

Yeah, that's a great question and I do think
this is where, having theoperational background, I
probably am able to pick up onthis.
The BS.
Yeah, especially even just likedigging around in a data room or
yeah, you, just you can kind ofpick up on when something
doesn't make sense or it doesn'tpass a sniff test you about how

(42:14):
much revenue they're going todo the next quarter and you're
looking at historicals andyou're looking at the pipeline
or maybe a founder misses he orshe doesn't know his exact
number, or it's their ability tohonestly and precisely be a
master of their numbers.
Know when they answer you.

(42:36):
It makes tons of sense with theexact numbers that you already
know and it doesn't kind of ebband flow.
Whenever I get kind of likeyellow flags or red flags, it's
when numbers yeah, it'ssquirrely numbers kind of start
sliding and it starts to feel alittle slick, you know.

Joe Grover (42:52):
For sure.
So the question I think westart around this question what
are those signs that we shouldlook for if we're a founder or
an operator?
What are the signs we shouldlook for when there could be a
failure on the horizon?
And like, what are those yellowlights or red lights that we
should be looking for tobasically determine whether or

(43:14):
not we should stop or just keeppushing forward?

Oh, that's a great question determine whether or
not we should stop or just keeppushing forward.
Ooh, that's a great question.
First and foremost, I would say,feedback from your team,
especially the people who areworking on the frontline.
Usually the frontline workers,whether it's, you know, they're
in technical support or customersuccess, people who are talking
to customers all the time.
They usually have a pretty goodpulse on what's working and

(43:39):
what's not.
And if there's something thatis repeatedly coming across from
a voice of customer ortechnical support, or bugs where
things just aren't clickinglike, I think that those are
some of the first kind of youknow, qualitative signs that
come across.
And then I do think you knowthere are some quantitative
things where stuff starts toslow down.

(44:02):
You know whether your pipelineyou're not able to fill it,
maybe stuff isn't converting.
And you always look firstoperationally Are there things
we're doing operationally thatare impacting this?
But I think once you'veconfirmed that operationally
things are sound and it's justyou know things are slowing and
sluggish, I think that that'swhen I start to look at product,

(44:22):
market fit, audience, icp.
You know, is my original thesisabout this correct?

Joe Grover (44:29):
And having those thoughts, yeah, I was in a
company right where we lostproduct market fit.

Yeah.

Joe Grover (44:34):
We had it for a time .
Market dynamics shifted and wedidn't shift quick enough.
We didn't adapt our serviceoffering to the market as well
as we could have, and it waspainful.

Yeah.

Joe Grover (44:46):
So I've seen, I totally agree with your, your
recommendations in terms oflooking at yes, operationally we
can look at customersatisfaction.

Yeah.

Joe Grover (44:53):
Right and product delivery.
But from an acquisition and asa CMO, I'm always thinking about
like is the acquisition engineworking?
Is it efficient, right?
Are we driving efficient leadsor awareness?
Are we converting those at anappropriate rate?
Is CAC appropriate?
And if your CAC and your LTV toCAC is an appropriate place,

(45:14):
then you can usually solveoperational and product issues.
Yeah agreed.

I think one of the biggest mistakes a founder can
make and I don't know if it's amistake or just a skill, and it
is a skill I believe you canlearn but I really do believe
that the best leaders of anycompany not just a startup, but
if you were in a public company,it doesn't matter the best
leaders that I have ever workedwith are a master of numbers for
every department.

(45:40):
They know and it's not thatthey're micromanaging, it's not
that they're trying to do youknow somebody's job, but they
understand the metrics and theyunderstand what it means.
They understand how they worktogether and they can often
speak to those metrics just aswell as the CMO as a CPO, as the
CTO, speak to those metricsjust as well as the CMO as a CPO
, as the CTO, and that's reallypowerful.

(46:00):
I think that when somebodyturns a blind eye because maybe
they don't understand it as wellor they just don't have
capacity to deal with it.

Joe Grover (46:10):
I think that that can create some precarious
situations.

This is why it's so tough to be a great founder,
because you have to be astoryteller, you have to be
everything.

Joe Grover (46:14):
It's a unicorn, yeah , and build and be persuasive
and connect with people and havethat really strong EQ.
And then you have to beanalytical and you have to be in
the numbers, because that'sreally the language that tells
you whether or not the businessis performing or not performing.
And I have seen founders whoare really strong on one side
and they just kind of outsourceto the rest of their management

(46:34):
team the operational KPIs andthe efficiency and NPS.
And that's a dangerous place tobe as a founder because if
something starts to slip and youdon't see it early enough, then
things can get hairy fast.
As you sit down withentrepreneurs that are facing
adversity or maybe even facing apotential failure, what counsel

(46:56):
would you give thoseentrepreneurs that are
struggling to keep theircompanies alive and who are
facing a potential failure?

Yeah, I think first I would encourage them to
really make sure that they'regetting honest and direct
feedback from their counselors.
I think everybody has adifferent style of giving
feedback.
Personally, I tend to be moredirect and that's typically how
I also like to receive feedback.
But I do think that justhonesty really matters and

(47:27):
hearing really honest opinionsand perceptions so that you can
kind of synthesize all of thosedata points and make the most
intelligent next step.
Intelligent next step, I think.
I think the other thing and Iwas just I was just talking to a
founder this week and it's notlike profound advice or business
advice, but I think it's morejust like comfort that like

(47:51):
you're doing great, like you'vedone more than 99% of anybody
else, the 99% of anybody else,and nobody's walking in your
shoes and you know what you'vedone matters to this point and,
um, it matters after this.
And like you've already won,you know Um, and I know that
that's maybe not like profoundbusiness advice or uh, but it's.

(48:14):
I think sometimes when we're inkind of that crucible, it's not
the tactical advice wenecessarily need.
I think sometimes it's justlike the reassurance that like
because they're already doingeverything they can, they don't
need me to sit there and tellthem like I'm not walking their
shoes.
I think it's more just thereassurance that you're doing
great.

Joe Grover (48:34):
I can't tell you how that is.
I can't tell you how that is.
In the moments that have beenthe most difficult in my career,
there were a few investors thatshowed up and they knew we were

(48:56):
underperforming I and it meantthe world, especially because
they had so much at stake Tolook me in the eye and say thank
you, to say you're doing allthat you can.
Sometimes in those moments,founders understand they're
often more critical ofthemselves than any of their

(49:16):
advisors or investors.
And so to have an investorsshow up and say you're doing
okay, you've alreadyaccomplished a lot, you know,
keep at it Like that.
That gave me fuel, right, thatgave me motivation.
Alternatively, I've hadinvestors that just show up and
critique and be like you.
guys are making all the wrongdecisions, and that doesn't

(49:36):
motivate anyone to work harder.

Well, especially like the psychology of most
entrepreneurs.
We're like there's somethinglike fundamentally kind of wrong
with us, right For sure.
Like we already are very hardon ourselves.
We already are probablyoverachievers, we are probably
perfectionists.
People pleasers People pleasersLike all of that wrapped into
one intense humans pleasers likeall of that wrapped into one

(50:01):
intense humans.
And the last thing, the lastthing a human like that needs,
when they're already likebusting ass to do everything
they can to make it work, issomebody to like be critical
because, to your point, theyalready are doing that to
themselves, probably 10 timesworse.
Um, and unless a, unless afounder asks for very tactical
advice and I try not to giveadvice unless I'm able to give
tactical advice, but I don'tfeel like it's not my job to

(50:25):
give that unless it's asked foror really desired.

Joe Grover (50:31):
But it makes you a really effective investor.
I love investors that were alsooperators, because you have
been in their shoes.
You may not know how to solvethe specific problem that
they're facing in their industryat this time, but you have been
in their shoes.
You may not know how to solvethe specific problem that
they're facing in their industryat this time, but you've been
in their shoes, and not allinvestors have that background
and experience, and so I foundthat so valuable to have
investors that also wereoperators and founders and

(50:51):
entrepreneurs, because theyunderstand in a different way
what is required the sacrifice,the grit, just the long hours,
the intensity of the work oversuch a long period of time to
really build something.
That is that is valuable.
Yeah, so what's?
Um, what's one moment in yourcareer where you made a decision

(51:12):
that you look back on and say Iwish I would have made a
different decision, because partof failure is not repeating the
same mistakes Like that's whywe talk about.
It is like so then investorentrepreneurs can listen to this
podcast and say, oh, I see whatChristie did.
Let me avoid that mistake.
So what's, what's a decisionthat if you could go back, you
would make a different one?

So I don't like that question because I feel, I
feel like I love that.

Joe Grover (51:36):
Great question, great question, not great.

I don't like that question and I don't like that
question because all of mydecisions, bad and good, have
led me to where I am today and Ilike, I love my life.

Joe Grover (51:52):
And I didn't ask do you regret it?
Cause you don't have to regretit, but we can learn from it,
Right?

Yeah, I think that um does that save the question?
Yeah.
Does that save the question?
No, yeah, um.
I think that one of this is Iwould say that this has been a
pattern throughout my lifeoperating um, building my
startup, operating venturecapital Um, I am an intense
human and I really likedifficult things.

(52:19):
I love solving difficultproblems and I think it's really
fun.
I also think that that cancomplicate things and we don't
always need things to bedifficult.
Or, like I said, like smartesttech doesn't win at the end of
the day, and I think you know,going back to even when I was a

(52:42):
founder, um, I picked ed tech, Ipicked hardware, I literally
picked all of the things thatprobably were the worst things
to choose if you wanted to be anentrepreneur, but I was
passionate about it.
So there was that.
You know, um, and I think I.
I think that, um, you asked fora specific moment, but I think
that there's been many momentsthroughout my career where I've
chosen the more difficult orcomplicated path and I I

(53:02):
sometimes reflect on um, do Iwish that I would have chosen a
more simple path?
And sometimes I would say, yes,sometimes I think I've gotten
in my own way Um and um and Ishould just uh, you know,
simplify things a little bit,and I should just, you know,
simplify things a little bit.

Joe Grover (53:20):
I love that, because that's what I would say too is
I don't regret decisions, butthere's a lot of learning, and I
think there were times where Ijust made choices, whether it's
what companies to start or tojoin, or even decisions when I
was at those companies that werethe more difficult path.

Okay, I've got a specific one and there's
probably easier paths.
Great, Okay, I've got aspecific one.
If I were younger and thiswould be like I've given this
advice to my girls- you wouldhave invested in Bitcoin.
I would have invested in Bitcoinright, if I were starting my
career over as an operator or afounder.
If I were a founder, I would doa lot of diligence on what the

(54:03):
most successful SaaS businesseslook like and what makes them
successful, and I would try to.
I would formulate kind of athesis and start figuring out
what to build from there.
But if I were starting over inmy career and I've thought a lot
about this and again I didn'thave many options like I took
the next best step that was infront of me, um, but I think

(54:24):
having a legitimate go-to-marketexperience, starting at the
bottom of the rung in sales andI did do door-to-door summer
sales for a long time- Firstline security.

Joe Grover (54:32):
First line security.
They were one of my clients ohgee, are you serious?
Wow when I was running anagency.

That's incredible.
That's a long we haven't talkedabout that, yeah, yeah, um, yeah
, and that's how I met Ty also,um, but but specifically like
software sales, and I think thatthat is one of the most
invaluable experiences, and Ihave often regretted, um, that I
didn't get more exposure tosome of that earlier on in my

(55:01):
career, because I've had tolearn it later in my career, but
it is just so critical and so Ithink that that's one very I
mean, I'm trying to give youspecifics here and I feel like
that's one specific- example,sales Sales Software sales
specifically.
Go to market.

Joe Grover (55:16):
Yeah, go to market.
Why is software sales such animportant skill set that could
be applied even if you're notgoing to be a salesperson for
your whole career?
Why do you think that could beso valuable to an entrepreneur?

Yeah, I think that go to market and we can call it
that, and it really could be forany industry.
I think software is just areally good use case.
Um, I think that the skillsthat you learn and go to market
are honestly applicable to somuch in life.
And very quickly recognizingyou talked about that pattern
recognition we talked aboutearlier um pattern recognition

(55:49):
and skillset for um makingthings happen, um, you know,
especially in business.
At the end of the day, it'sabout bringing a dollar in the
door and I think the people whoare able to do that are often
the most successful, evenproduct leaders, who are they
understand or are sort of coinoperated, where they understand

(56:10):
the importance of that anddriving their vision um, in line
with that.
I think that those are some ofthe most powerful leaders,
because it is economy, it'seconomics, it's how the world
works and if you can learn thatfundamentally, I think it's very
helpful.

Joe Grover (56:24):
So I had an early sales experience.
The way I got involved inventure capital was I was
invited by a couple of foundersof this new venture capital firm
this was back in the early 2000, to come up and sit in a call
center and call institutionalinvestors on the East Coast, and
I probably have never told thisstory publicly.

(56:45):
And so I remember they gave me alist.
I didn't even really know aboutventure capital.
They shared with me their pitchdeck and I asked a few
questions and then they justgave me a list and I literally
sat in a cubicle up in Ogden atMarketStar Nice and I literally
started calling investors and Iwas like the first call I
pitched the best I could.

(57:05):
I'm like yes, we're a growthequity fund.
And the question that thelimited partner asked this
institutional investor asked wasare you small cap or large cap
or large cap?
And that if, for those of youthat know, I did, I obviously
did a terrible job establishingthat we were a venture capital
fund, because they wouldn'tprobably have asked that
question.
Um, and, and I just I did thatfor three months and it was it

(57:32):
was so hard.
I did not love it.
We were actually using insidesales as a CRM even, and I was
using a power dial.
I mean, this was, this was, andI was just learning as I went,
but, honestly, that's how Ipunched my ticket to get a job
in venture capital.
At the end of three months,they offered me a full-time
position at the venture capitalfirm.
So and a lot of people don'tknow that I mean, I did not come

(57:52):
through a traditional kind ofinvestment banking path Call
center.
But a call center.
But a call center can youbelieve that that's incredible
and um, and it was really,really valuable.
But it's how I?
That's literally that, justlike picking up the phone, being
willing to like, learn and selland persuade.
And one day I picked up thephone and it was a portfolio
manager at jp morgan in new yorkcity.

(58:12):
I was catching her ride, shewas jumping on a flight to paris
, france, and I said we're goingto be in new york two weeks,
would love to come by and meetyou.
And she said, okay, I'll putyou in contact with my assistant
.
And we were in the JP MorganChase office and they were our
anchor investor and fund one.

That's incredible.
And it was a cold call, that'sincredible.
Anyway, there you go Go tomarket Sales, go to market.

Joe Grover (58:34):
Whether it's a product, software or adventure,
fun, even launching your life.

It's a great skill, yeah.

Joe Grover (58:41):
So parting words.
There's a pink tinsel tree.
There is that still is sittingin your home?

Yep With an LED star on the top.

Joe Grover (58:49):
With an LED star on the top.
It's probably not your onlytree.

It is my only tree.

Joe Grover (58:53):
I love it.
So that still is your onlyChristmas tree.
It's our only tree.

Yeah, like I said, it's a reminder that you don't
need a lot to be happy and thattree has some of the best,
warmest, most beautiful memoriesand I don't see a need until it
breaks.
You know which it is likestarting to break.
There's some duct tape.

Joe Grover (59:16):
I don't need another tree.
How many years has it been?

It's been, I want to say, like 10.

Joe Grover (59:21):
10 years yeah, so for a decade.
This tree is standing as asymbol that you don't need a lot
to be happy.
Also as a symbol ofextraordinary resilience and
hard work and ingenuity.

There's light on the other side.

Joe Grover (59:32):
And there's light on the other side.
What parting thoughts do youhave for entrepreneurs that are
facing difficulty building theirbusinesses, scaling their
businesses, raising capital,maybe trying to survive in a
different market?
What counsel do you have forthem?

It matters.
I think that I just got backfrom YC Demo Day.
It was my first demo day.
It was really cool and therewas sort of the VC hoopla.
I was like, ah, I don't knowabout this.
But then the founders got upthere and started pitching and,
um, it matters.
That was that was my thoughteven at at the demo day.

(01:00:08):
And whether I, you know, someof those founders might not go
on to raise a round, some ofthem, you know, their companies
might be shut down in six months.
Um of them will probably go onan IPO, but every single one of
them matters and it will alllead to good things and I think
you just got to have hope andfaith that you know, come what

(01:00:30):
may, it's all going to work outand it matters.

Joe Grover (01:00:34):
Thank you, christy, appreciate you being on today.

Kristy Muir (01:00:36):
I appreciate it.
Thanks, Joe.

Joe Grover (01:00:37):
Thanks for tuning in to the Real F Word.
The Real F Word is failure, andremember that failure is a
stepping stone, it's not just astumbling block.
Join us next time as wecontinue to explore the journey
of resilience and growth,without ignoring the true costs
personally, professionally andfinancially that comes with
failure.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep embracing the real stories
of entrepreneurship.

(01:00:58):
See you next time.

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8. What Defines You? From Startup Struggle to Venture Capitalist Success | Kristy Muir

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}8. What Defines You? From Startup Struggle to Venture Capitalist Success | Kristy Muir