June 11, 2025 • 37 mins
Summary
In this conversation, Dr. Nashay Lowe and career coach Deana Chukwuemeka explore the deeper aspects of career development beyond just job titles. They discuss the importance of self-discovery, clarity, and alignment in one's career path. The conversation delves into the challenges of ambition, the significance of overcoming fear and imposter syndrome, and the necessity of asking for more in professional settings. Through personal anecdotes and coaching insights, they highlight the transformative journey individuals can undertake to align their careers with their true selves.
Key Takeaways
- It's about who you are becoming through the work.
- Clarity requires a level of pause and reflection.
- Ambition can feel empty without purpose.
- Detours in careers can be neutral; it's how we define them.
- Fear activates the brain's threat center, influencing decisions.
- We often over function and under advocate for ourselves.
- Transformation is a process, not an overnight change.
- Tracking growth is essential for recognizing progress.
- Asking for more is crucial for career advancement.
- You have the answers for you in this season of life.
Thanks for listening in! This work is easier when we do it together.
🎙 Episode Brought to You By:
Dr. Nashay Lowe, Founder of Lowe Insights Consulting
🌐 www.loweinsights.com | 📧 hello@loweinsights.com | 🔗 Connect on here!
If you’d like me to bring this conversation to your stage, let’s connect at www.loweinsights.com/speaking-engagements-thought-leadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Shay (00:01):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
Today's conversation is aboutmore than just jobs or
(00:43):
promotions.
It's about who you are becomingthrough the work that you do.
I'm joined by DeanaChukwuemeka, a career coach who
helps people get clear,confident, and aligned in their
professional lives, not by justchasing titles, but by
reconnecting with themselves.
We'll explore how ambition canfeel empty when it's not
grounded in purpose, why so manyof us second-guess our own
(01:05):
instincts, and how learning toask for more is often the first
step towards realtransformation.
Whether you're mid-career, juststarting out, or somewhere in
between, this episode is areminder that your path doesn't
need to be perfect.
It just needs to be yours.
Deana, can you please introduceyourself to the people?
Deana Chukwuemeka (01:23):
Thank you so much, Dr.
Lowe.
I'm Deana Chukwuemeka.
I am a career coach.
I'm also a project manager.
I'm a mom of three.
I'm a wife, and I am committedto helping professionals really
get beyond the waiting to bepicked, like owning their
(01:45):
careers for themselves.
And my work really centersaround helping people align
their career goals with whatthey actually need, where they
actually are in the season thatthey are.
So they're not living a careerthat they're pressured to be.
So I'm so excited to talk withDr.
Lo and get into this becausethis is something I'm very, very
beyond passionate, very, verycommitted to working with people
(02:09):
in this space.
Dr. Shay (02:10):
Amazing.
Thank you.
So you help people align theirvision with their strengths.
Why is that clarity so hard tofind on your own?
Deana Chukwuemeka (02:20):
Because we're literally in it.
When you're in something, whenyou're living it, when you're
going through the hard moments,I think a lot of times it's just
hard to zoom out, right?
All of us are operatingliterally from the default,
whether we realize it or not,we're operating from what we've
been told, what we've beentaught.
And so we're responding toothers' expectations.
(02:41):
Our brains are trying toprotect us, so we're chasing
safety.
We're literally always tryingto prove something, even
subconsciously.
And so clarity for me requiresa level of pause, a level of
slowing down.
And that's what coaching for medoes.
I've been coached for probablymore than half of my life, and
then I coach people.
I think having a coach helpsyou step back, get honest, and I
(03:05):
would say reconnect with, ifyou're honest with yourself,
reconnect with the voice that isreally yours.
Dr. Shay (03:12):
And I love how you bring up if you're honest with
yourself because I thinksometimes the gap with coaching
is people just are waiting forsomeone just to give you the
answers.
Deana Chukwuemeka (03:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (03:20):
Actually, explain a little bit about what coaching
means.
Deana Chukwuemeka (03:23):
Okay.
You know, everyone has in thisspace of the way we use social
media, I would say coaching,consulting, mentoring, they all
have different definitions.
I always say my job as a coachis literally to help you move
forward.
So when people start bringingup things of past and things
they're dealing with, becauseit's always there, I'm always
(03:44):
like, this may be a thing youneed to work with a therapist on
because there's some things youneed to work on from there.
Now, what I can do is literallyhelp you move forward into that
thing you're wanting to getinto.
And so there's different levelsto coaching, but that is what I
see myself as, helping you moveforward.
Dr. Shay (04:01):
And can you talk a little bit about how you guide
someone to trust themselves insuch an unsure process in their
lives?
Deana Chukwuemeka (04:08):
Yeah, a few things I have here.
I would say one is getting intocuriosity and out of judgment.
So a lot of times we're judgingourselves and it all starts
with self-awareness.
Yes, it's a word people use.
People think they know what itmeans, but Self-awareness for me
is what's the story that you'vebeen telling yourself?
And then we basically reframethat story.
I'm not handing out answers.
(04:30):
You know, you said thatsometimes people expect coaches
to hand out answers.
I cannot give you the answersthat you need, but I can help
you, I would say, excavate theones that are inside you.
Like you have the answers foryou in this season.
And confidence for me is builtwhen, I mean, you already know.
You already know and looking atwhat do you know and then
literally saying, taking theforward action because
(04:51):
confidence is built throughmoving forward.
And then I would say a lot oftimes is helping people rebuild
trust with their voice.
A lot of times people don'tknow their voice.
their inner voice.
So I've been doing a lot ofresearch on some neuroscience
and just like looking at how dopeople move from a place of not
just reflecting, but acting andacting with alignment.
(05:13):
And the way that our brains areliterally wired is patterns.
And so when we start makingthose small steps, you're
talking about how do we helppeople trust themselves again?
It's in the small steps.
It's in the small decisionsthat they have to make.
Their confidence growsemotionally and but also
neurologically when they're ableto literally step into that
consistently.
Dr. Shay (05:34):
Consistency, that's the key.
I was waiting for that word.
I was like...
Deana Chukwuemeka (05:38):
You said that it was coming.
Dr. Shay (05:40):
Exactly.
And you brought up alignment,which is really important.
So can you talk to me a littlebit about the difference between
just ambition in its own andaligned ambition?
Deana Chukwuemeka (05:49):
Ambition for me is...
Chasing the next best thing.
And I don't think there'sanything wrong with ambition.
I work with lots of ambitiouspeople.
I, myself, am very ambitious.
I'm futuristic.
I'm always looking for what canI do next?
How can I grow?
So that's ambition.
But I think aligned ambition...
has more to do with somethingthat you're building with the
(06:09):
season that you're in.
And I've come to learn thatthrough my own life.
So ambition is like, I'm justchasing, chasing, chasing.
I have my own goal.
Whatever I had even five yearsago, I'm still chasing this
path.
But being aligned is more aboutpurpose.
And so you're not just saying,can I do this?
Because the answer may be yes.
But for me, it's, should I dothis?
In this season, should I bedoing this?
(06:30):
Does this fit my life today?
Does it align with my values?
So can I?
Great.
But should I?
I think is the better question.
Dr. Shay (06:36):
As you were talking, this kind of came to my mind.
Do you see a difference betweenpassion and purpose?
Are those one in the same or doyou kind of like someone's
really passionate aboutsomething, but maybe it actually
isn't their purpose?
Yeah.
Deana Chukwuemeka (06:51):
Yeah.
So I'm a big, what is the wordmean person?
I like defining words.
Even as I coach, I'm alwaysasking people, what does success
mean for you?
What does family mean for you?
What does promotion mean foryou?
So passion, I'm just looked itup now.
Passion is an intense feelingor enthusiasm for something,
often a personal enjoyment.
Purpose is defined as a deeperreason or goal that motivates an
(07:15):
individual.
So while passion is like aninward focused thing, I think
purpose is outward.
Purpose is for serving othersand passion is kind of like for
my well-being.
That's how I distinguish it.
You need both.
Right.
But I think.
And we've overused the wordpassion so much that people
don't, they don't trust thatword anymore or they see that
(07:35):
it's a bad thing to havepassion.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with it, but you can't be
passionate about your job everysingle day.
So I think you do need both,but there is a difference.
Dr. Shay (07:46):
Interesting.
I think even the things thatyou're passionate about, you're
not going to wake up with thatsame enthusiasm every day.
No,
Deana Chukwuemeka (07:54):
we're human.
So, I mean, I think it'sunrealistic to think just
because you're passionate aboutit, you're going to always be
excited about it.
Dr. Shay (08:02):
Right.
And so thinking about, youknow, again, for ambitious
people, um, You usually have aplan in place.
You know, you're chasing goalsA, B, C, sometimes all the way
up to Z.
So when we think about detoursin those plans, what do those
look like in a career and whatcauses them?
Deana Chukwuemeka (08:21):
Yeah, I think sometimes before the detour
happens, I think what ishappening is a lot of burnout.
A lot of times with my clientsis they're burnt out or they're
feeling disconnected or they'restaying in roles that just don't
fit them anymore.
And I think this happens when,again, you may be moving in the
direction you wanted to, but itmight be outdated.
And so we stop kind oflistening to ourselves, checking
(08:44):
in with ourselves.
And then I think the fear getsa little bit loud.
And then you kind of forgetwhat was the vision for this
thing?
Why did I start this thing?
And so it's kind of a level ofsurvival mode I think people get
into.
And I think that's where it'slike people start looking like,
oh, no, I have to detour.
Now I have to change something,right?
And The danger to me isn'tnecessarily the detour.
(09:05):
It's that you're staying inthat detour or you're staying
lost in it too long when you canliterally just shift out of it.
Dr. Shay (09:15):
And I guess when you're navigating someone going
through obviously a big careerchange, there's going to be
changes along the way.
And I guess how do you helpsomeone determine whether it's a
detour as in like it'sfear-based versus a sort of
needed detour to get to wherethey really want to be?
Deana Chukwuemeka (09:33):
Well, I will say that a book that I love that
helped me even reframe a lot ofthis, Marshawn Evans Daniels
has a book called BelieveBigger.
And she talks a lot aboutdisruption and the way we see
what disruption is, pain, right?
When things happen, they don'tgo our way.
Like, what does that reallymean for our lives?
And so for me, the detour isneutral, right?
(09:54):
There's no attachment to it.
Whatever we use to define thatdetour, if it's negative or
positive, is what determineswhat you do with it.
Because I'm also not in thecamp of saying, I don't know,
maybe you've heard that quote,the person who's wandering, it
doesn't mean they're lostnecessarily.
There's nothing wrong to wanderand nothing wrong to say, I'm
(10:15):
taking some time to justexplore.
So I don't want to box people'sdetours and to say it's only
negative, but I will say thatit's Kind of like your car, it's
kind of an indicator thatsomething may need to change.
I
Dr. Shay (10:29):
love that.
Thinking about, we talked alittle bit about fear coming up
in the middle of the journey.
So how do things like fear,imposter syndrome, or people
pleasing show up in careerdecisions?
Deana Chukwuemeka (10:41):
That's literally the work.
Before we get to any of thestrategy things and the things
that people can do consistentlyand how do we measure that, it's
really this internal narrativethat we're working on day in and
day out, literally.
Fear activates the mandulaoblongata, and that's literally
like the brain's threat center.
We're human, so fight andflight is natural to our bodies,
(11:05):
to our system.
It's the way we start makingdecisions like how to protect
myself.
Whenever someone is dealingwith that fear and imposter
syndrome and it's internal, itcan come through kind of like
people pleasing.
I would say there's oftenstrategies or coping strategies
that people use do day in andday out, whether they know it or
not, to literally protectthemselves from that perceived
(11:26):
rejection.
I think what a lot of goodcoaches do is help you quiet
that fear so that you canliterally hear the truth again.
So when I work with a clientand they're like, someone's told
me that I'm too quiet to be aleader.
First of all, what is thedefinition of a leader?
And what examples of leadershave you seen?
Is it only extroverted?
So I've given someone thatexercise, like find leaders who
(11:49):
are in different spaces thatcarry a leadership personality
that is unlike what you see orunlike the ones that get
promoted.
The Steve Jobs, the, you know,we can name, but even the
Oprahs, right?
They have a certain personalityand they often get shown that
this is leadership.
And so I challenge, I'm like,look for leaders who do not have
(12:10):
that personality, right?
Because we have to startquieting that voice of fear or
only like the things that you'reseeing so you can actually see
what is true and the thing thatyou're working on.
Dr. Shay (12:21):
I love that.
And, you know, the conversationon leadership can be its own
episode.
Yeah, I have a lot of opinionsabout that.
But again, it's not just atitle, it's a way of showing up.
And so I like how you recommendpeople finding maybe even
leaders that look more like yourpersonality style or whatever
that is, and figuring out whatleadership looks like in
(12:43):
specific spaces.
I think that's really key.
It's not one type of leader,right?
Deana Chukwuemeka (12:46):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (12:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So can you share some firststeps that you'd recommend when
someone realizes that theydrifted from their own vision?
Deana Chukwuemeka (12:55):
Yes.
I literally, I use thisframework and repeat rinse and
repeat different ways is pause.
I literally just pause.
Don't rush to.
Yeah.
Don't rush to fix it.
Start with reflection.
I know it seems like whenyou're stopping to reflect or
you're stopping to journal oryou're stopping to think and to
(13:17):
process and ask the samequestions, I know it literally
feels like, what am I doing?
I'm not making movement.
I say start there because theworld we live in is very fast.
And so a lot of times peopleare taking in so much
information.
We're consumers of a lot ofknowledge.
We have social media, we havepodcasts, we have things we're
(13:37):
reading.
And I often ask people, howmany times is your thought, your
original thought?
Because it's like, you'realways taking in stuff and then
you're responding from there.
So just taking a moment topause and ask, what was I hoping
this season would give me?
Or what was I thinking thisseason would be like?
Or what do I feel like I'mlosing in this season?
(13:58):
So maybe what feels heavy inthe detour is it's, getting you
to the point of what is true fornow.
And I would say that sometimesthis shift isn't about leaving
everything behind.
It's literally just adjustingthe lens in which we see it and
then realigning our next stepsso we can actually step into
where it is that we want to go.
Dr. Shay (14:19):
Absolutely.
And I love that you talkedabout the sense of urgency that
we feel every day, right?
Everything is really quick.
Everything is a seven-day or30-day challenge of transforming
your life.
And that's just not how itworks.
Deana Chukwuemeka (14:33):
It's not.
And as someone who uses socialmedia and I've studied
marketing, I probably was thestudent that people are like,
why are you always askingquestions?
I get what they're doing withsome of that, but it's like, if
we're going to say, let's do aseven-day challenge or a 21-day
challenge or a 100-daychallenge, let's be honest about
what is happening there.
(14:54):
Now, I totally believe intransformation, just like you
said, but it's not overnight.
And I often use the caterpillarto the butterfly.
It's just, to me, the mostbeautiful one because it's like
the caterpillar is not, youwould never expect it to be a
butterfly.
But transformation does startwhen you start something.
Seven days can help you sparkor be a catalyst to your
(15:16):
transformation, but it'sliterally just a spark and you
have to keep that spark goinglong enough for it to truly be
what you would calltransformation.
Dr. Shay (15:23):
So for someone who's already kind of gone through
this transformation process, andnow let's just say they're at
their sort of dream job, whatkeeps people from asking for
more?
Whether they're building thatjob up themselves, or they
started a new position, butmaybe they had to start off
lower level, they have to go up.
They've been at this companyfor five years or six years, and
(15:44):
they're ready for that nextstep.
But we always kind of get inour own way of going to that
next level.
So how do you coach themthrough that discomfort?
Deana Chukwuemeka (15:53):
Yeah, I will start.
Let me start here.
I think a lot of us were taughtthat asking makes us difficult,
like we're difficult peoplebecause we're asking, or that if
something was for us, it wouldjust come.
It would be easy, right?
So I think there's this idea ofbecause it's not easy, it's not
for me.
So I think we over-function andthen we under-advocate.
(16:14):
We're literally busy, busy,busy, but we're not advocating
for ourselves.
And so I really trying my bestwhen I'm working with the
clients to shift from the, whatif they say no to what if they
say yes, because I finallyasked, because you asked.
And so we go through this wholenegotiation piece of, I mean, I
work with so many HRprofessionals behind the scenes
to understand what doesnegotiation look like?
(16:37):
Do they expect people tonegotiate?
And the answer is always yes,because there's budget.
And when you don't negotiate,you're literally setting
yourself up to be underpaid forfor as long as you stay in the
company.
Because when you come into thecompany, you can negotiate to
the place where perceived value,all of those things, you're
setting yourself up to make morein the future.
(16:59):
Now, I will also say thatneuroscience, as much as I've
been reading about it, backsthis up very easily because
rejection and social disapprovalkind of activate the same thing
in our bodies as physical pain.
So we tend to avoid it.
So once we start reframing theask as neutral and even a part
(17:20):
of growth, like you need to beable to ask if you're going to
grow, then that's when for me westart to desensitize that fear
response to asking.
Dr. Shay (17:29):
And from doing that in your work, can you share like a
story where someone shifted howthey saw themselves and what
happened after thattransformation?
Deana Chukwuemeka (17:39):
Yeah, so I'll start off first with something
we talked about a little bitearlier about transformation.
The thing with transformationis that you need time, you need
time to actually see it.
And when I think about thisclient, she's one of my first
clients that I worked with whenI became official.
She's always been supportive ofme and she paid, like she paid,
we're friends, but she paid formy coaching.
(18:01):
I would say a lot of early winswhen we started what I call
transformationism, what happenedover the year or two years that
we really worked together.
And so one of the things thatshe started off with was
questioning her leadershipstyles.
And so she often wondered, youknow, got feedback about being
too quiet or not showing up in acertain way.
Someone who, similar to me,came to the U.S.
(18:24):
when we were young.
And so you're navigatingdifferent spaces.
And so she was kind of waitingfor someone to validate her
leadership.
And so we had to do a lot ofreframing around her impact and
really how she owned it outloud.
And owning it out loud for meis...
how she asked for more, how sheshowed up in meetings.
It wasn't just an externalshift.
(18:44):
It was really internal.
So I'm doing this, but what isthe impact to the team?
What's the impact to thecompany and really her overall
presence?
How do I show up in meetings?
Do I look like I'm timid or amI showing up with the authority
that I know that I have?
And so when we worked throughall of that and she was able to
ask for more little by little,like practicing asking for more
(19:05):
in meetings than in one-on-oneswith her manager, then, um, in a
company review, like, you know,year end review, asking for
more incrementally, she was ableto really those first three
months we worked together, shegot her first quarterly bonus
and not just the bonus, butsomeone nominated her for like
an excellent employee awardbased off of her work.
And so it, all of those littlethings that we're doing, we
(19:28):
weren't looking for that result,but because of that, those
results naturally came.
And so for me, of Thetransformation is more than
external.
It's more than the raise.
It's more than the promotion.
For me, it's about theconfidence and the peace that
she had within herself.
And for me, that was the realwin, truly.
Dr. Shay (19:45):
That's beautiful.
And I love the part that youemphasize about the increment
stages of transformation.
I think, again, we live in afast-paced society where
everybody wants everything now.
They want it overnight.
They want it yesterday.
And part of transformation isIt is a slow process, you know,
that's the key there.
(20:05):
It is a process.
And so how do you help yourclients realize that it takes
time and when it's done right,it's not rushed and what that
really looks like for them to gothrough each step of it behind
the scenes.
And I do want to add tosomething I see on social media
a lot.
Transformation looks noisy tome now.
(20:26):
Everyone's like, you know, it'sso easy no matter how
accomplished you are to goonline and see everyone else's
credentials and accolades andall these followers and all of
this.
And you're just like, what am Idoing wrong?
But the reality is you're notseeing all of the quiet pieces
that got to that point, right?
So how do you guide themthrough that part of the
transformation?
Oh,
Deana Chukwuemeka (20:45):
that in itself is a, literally so much
can be broken down from there.
Maybe I can start from what yousaid about transformation is
noisy.
Like that just hit me,honestly.
And, you know, bear with mebecause I'm thinking on the spot
here for sure.
I think we know it in our head,but we don't know it in our
(21:06):
heart is that transformation isnot always graceful.
It's messy, it's loud, and it'sfull of friction.
So when you said it's noisy,for me, that was like in the
best of ways.
But I'm getting to the otherside about the social media
thing.
And this is how I see it islike the reason why
transformation is noisy isbecause you're literally...
telling your brain to shift.
(21:27):
You're telling it to dosomething totally different,
right?
You know, we've been talking alot about the neuroscience thing
and how I've been geeking outon that, but you are forming new
patterns.
And so whether you're settingnew boundaries, you're choosing
rest, you're walking away fromthings that no longer fit, your
brain's default mode, you'redisrupting that, like literally,
(21:47):
right?
And that is uncomfortable.
It creates a The neutralpathway is being challenged,
like the neutral way you alwaysdo things, your default, your
status quo is being challenged.
And so when your system or yourbody, your mind, your belief,
all of those, it's trying tohold on to what feels familiar,
even when it's not workinganymore.
(22:09):
I think that's where the noisecomes from.
Like it feels noisy.
It feels disorienting.
What I always tell my clientsis it doesn't mean you're off
track because it feels hard now.
It doesn't mean you're offtrack because you're not seeing
the results you think you shouldbe seeing externally.
It doesn't even mean you're offtrack just because you don't
feel like you're growing.
It's just a reminder thatyou're in motion and that the
(22:31):
motion itself, the work itselfis that the work is working.
Now, what you're talking abouton social media with the noise
of transformation and I wouldsay the over emphasis on The
change outside of the process orthe overemphasis on the result
versus the process, I think iswhat we see.
People are selling a endresult.
(22:53):
And I get it because I alsostudied marketing, right?
Like I get it.
You're selling the result.
You're selling the promotion.
You're selling the, what is theend?
But very few people are beingvery honest about the process
that it takes.
And if we're honest and ifwe're truthful about anything
that we do, I'm always on thisthing of like, it takes 10 years
to have true success.
(23:13):
Or some people like the 10,000hours rule or whatever it is.
Mastery takes time.
Anything you're working ontakes time, but that's why the
destination is not the goal.
That's what I work on with myclients.
The process and the growth isthe goal.
So if you're measuring yourgrowth and it's not tied to a
definite destination, thentransformation, the noise, the
(23:38):
discomfort, it feels a The thingwith social media is just, it
is what it is.
And I always tell people,control your controllables.
If you are being distracted bywhat's on social media, you need
to change what's visible toyou.
You don't have to followeverybody.
You don't need to engage witheverything.
You can literally...
curate what you see and don'tsee.
(24:00):
So I always encourage peoplelike avoid the explore area if
that doesn't help you, right?
Like make sure that you're onlyfollowing people who when you
scroll, it's either motivatingyou, teaching you, you know,
those types of things.
So it keeps you out of thenoise of this false idea of I'm
behind or I'm not there yet, orI'm in year two, someone's in
(24:20):
year 20.
Like it just takes out all thatcomparison for me, all that
external noise.
Dr. Shay (24:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Deana Chukwuemeka (24:25):
Hopefully that answered your question.
Dr. Shay (24:27):
It did, absolutely.
And I was taking notes becauseI need to start doing that on my
checklist right now.
So if someone listening isfeeling stuck or unseen in their
work, what would you say tothem?
Deana Chukwuemeka (24:41):
I would have to ask more questions than what
I would say because that's whatI love about coaching is I'm so
curious about people and I'm socurious about like why this, why
that.
So I want to dig into reallywhat is the why because yes, I
can, offer a framework tofollow.
But with each of my clients, asI'm showing you a framework I
followed and other clients havefollowed, what you realize is
(25:04):
you're literally building yourown blueprint off of the
framework, right?
And so people often are feelingstuck or unseen or So I'd say a
few things.
So one, you're not crazy andyou're not behind.
Like you're not crazy becauseof all the things we talked
about.
The friction that people arefeeling is likely a sign that
(25:26):
they've outgrown the spacethey're in, not that they're
failing at it.
Because I think that's thefirst thing is people think, am
I failing?
Am I doing this right?
Right?
Another thing is you don't needto throw it all away, but you
do need to start listeningagain, or you do need to
reassess, or you do need to slowdown enough to reflect on what
(25:47):
it is.
The other thing I would say,which is you already have the
clues.
Your life is literally thepuzzle.
I'm helping ask questions tohelp you decode it, but you have
it.
we just need to decode it.
We just need to synthesize it.
We just need to make ittangible or we need to bring it
(26:07):
up to the surface.
You know what I mean?
Like you already have it.
So, I mean, a lot of women Iwork with are women of faith.
And so it's like, you don'thave to look externally for what
you're looking for.
If you believe in God as God,he already gave it to you.
You already got it.
You need to dig into thatinstead of looking for something
that's outside yourself, right?
(26:28):
Because when we feel stuck,again, it's like the question
is, why do you feel stuck?
A lot of it is I'm comparingmyself or I feel like I'm behind
on a plan that I put in my mind20 years ago.
Like when I was a teenager, Isaid I wanted to be this or
somebody told me to be this.
That's why you feel behind.
So just taking a moment toreally think about that and look
(26:50):
at where you may be misalignedversus feeling behind.
Good news is that your brain isliterally behind built for
change.
With the right reflection, withthe right intentional shifts,
you can rewire the way that youwork, the way you lead, and the
way you live, the way you think,the way you believe.
You can literally create, Ithink it's neuroplasticity.
Our brains can grow.
(27:12):
Our brains can change.
And so to get people unstuck, alot of times I start with one
simple question.
What do I need to do to feelproud of how I'm showing up?
Like proud of yourself.
And that's an internal thing.
And a lot of times people aretelling me what they need to do
is literally just keep their ownword or keep their own promise.
Because what we realize is alot of the things we're looking
(27:35):
for validation from otherpeople, we haven't done for
ourselves.
We want people to celebrate us.
Do you celebrate yourselfdaily, weekly?
We want people to advocate forus.
Do you advocate for yourselfdaily, weekly?
You know, those types ofthings.
So just look for thoseopportunities to say, I'm proud
of myself.
for showing up like this.
And so you are not stuck.
(27:56):
You're not behind.
It's literally a place ofreflection, a place to ask
better questions.
Dr. Shay (28:04):
While you were talking, I was thinking, is
there any research you comeacross that addresses how you
approach someone fromdifferentiating what I think I'm
supposed to be and do versuswhat I actually want to be and
do?
Deana Chukwuemeka (28:19):
I'm so interested because that is...
a part of the discussion thathappens a lot.
People are getting degrees,people are getting jobs, and
they're still feeling a level ofdisconnect.
There's one there.
Then there's this other thingof, I was on this path and now
I've become something that Ididn't know I would become.
The process as we're goingthrough it changes us because as
(28:43):
we talked about becomingwhatever, isn't just about that
destination or just about thatarrival.
You are literally adapting onthe go.
Dr. Shay (28:52):
You know what I mean?
Unfolding in real time.
Deana Chukwuemeka (28:53):
Unfolding.
Thank you.
That's a beautiful way to sayit.
Unfolding in real time.
And a lot of times we think weknow why we want this thing and
why we're going towards it.
And it changes or our mindschange.
But what, I mean, what Ibelieve in as a woman of faith
is nothing is ever wasted.
So- The process is the goal.
(29:14):
So you going through thatprocess, like without it, where
would you be?
Without it, what parts of youtoday would not be you?
You know what I mean?
And I think it's alsoreframing.
Yeah, people are like, you geta PhD and now what are you
doing?
But it's like me getting a PhDis a title to me, but it's not
(29:37):
who I am.
You went through this rigorousprocess of, Yeah, yeah.
Let's be honest, externally, itvalidates you, it validates the
(30:03):
interviews you do, the workthat you do.
But it's just another piece ofyou, right?
The PhD, I think it's nodifferent than when I work with
people, even with myself, Istruggled with when I left
corporate for the first time, itwas like, who am I without my
company's logo on my shirt?
Who am I without that title?
And For those two years, that'swhat I did.
(30:23):
That's why I think this workcame out the way it did.
I had to reflect on my identityoutside of the work.
And so when people are doingPhDs, I also tell them, as we're
going through this processtogether, start trying to
separate your identity from yourPhD.
Just see it as another, likemilitary people, it's another
badge of honor on you, but it'snot you.
(30:45):
Because who are you without it?
I wouldn't say it's a balance,but I think it's a constant
balance.
thing you have to be aware ofoutside of yourself my own coach
challenged me maybe a month agoshe's like write your bio and I
wrote my bio and I wrote whatI've done and different careers
I've had and she's like Dinawrite a bio without all of the
(31:06):
stuff like who are you who areyou without all of the stuff and
when I sat down to write that Iwas I was like it was hard I
No, like it was, it was reallyhard.
I'm bringing it up right now.
Cause it was, it was hard forme to be like, yes, who am I
without all of the other stuff?
Even though I know it, it'slike, how often are we being
(31:28):
challenged to write about who weare without all this stuff?
It's not really often.
And so I'm going to, I'm justgoing to like, I have Dina the
doer and then Dina beyond thedoer.
I won't read the whole thing.
Maybe I'll just read the firstsentence, but the doer is Dina
Trucamica is a results drivenproject manager and career
strategist known for her turningcomplex challenges into clear,
(31:49):
actionable pathways.
Dina, beyond the doer, Dina isa breath of clarity in a noisy
world.
She is a woman of presence,rooted in purpose, and anchored
in rhythm.
Like, it sounds totallydifferent.
It's totally different.
Dr. Shay (32:04):
That first part of your bio, we sound like the same
person.
Everyone's bio sounds like
Deana Chukwuemeka (32:09):
that.
We all are that, right?
But I even challenge you to dosomething like that.
Like, you know...
The PhD holder, Dr.
Lo, the PhD holder, and Nashay,who are you?
And to get to that, I think ifI remember, I had to put 20 I am
(32:30):
statements.
And that's why the first one,the I am statements were really
work focused.
They were...
results focused.
They were outcome focused.
They were value focused.
What do I give to other people?
And then when I had to writethe I am statement with no
rules, no virtues, but focusingon my essence, it was totally
different.
Dr. Shay (32:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Deana Chukwuemeka (32:51):
So
Dr. Shay (32:51):
there's a similar, God, I forgot where I got it
from.
But there was this exercisesomeone was telling someone to
do to get to the core of who youare, like outside of your
resume.
And you had to, I think you hadto write your eulogy and the
perspective of how you wantothers to remember you.
And that has nothing to do withtitles or what you did.
It's about how you make peoplefeel.
Deana Chukwuemeka (33:12):
Nothing at all.
Yeah, it's what we talked aboutearlier about the difference, I
think we said, between passionand purpose.
So yeah, you can, I mean,passion is good because it's
really about you.
But purpose is beyond thatbecause it's about you and how
are you to other people, right?
And even in the bio, then ittakes it a step further to say,
(33:33):
yes, you may have a purpose, butwhat's your purpose even beyond
what you do for other people?
Like what's your essence, howyou show up?
And of course we know thatimpacts how people see you too,
but even that would be somethingthat would be more of a eulogy
you would want versus theresume.
Right.
We're human, so we're taught toproduce and it's not bad.
It's just that we often forgetthat we are more than what we
(33:56):
produce, you know?
Dr. Shay (33:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just, one thing I'd tookthis away when I think I was in,
I want to say in Korea is wherefirst time it clicked for me,
but I realized just also justcultural differences.
So when you talk to a lot ofpeople from other cultures, when
you introduce, like, first ofall, one of the first things you
ask someone in the States islike, what do you do?
That's exactly.
And then you say, when yourespond, you say, Someone asked
(34:22):
you what you do, but yourresponse is, I am the thing, not
I do this thing.
And a lot of other culturesthat I've come across, when they
talk about their work, itsounds very separate from who
they are.
They really just say, like, Imean, some people will say,
like, I'm a doctor.
That makes more sense to say itthat way.
But, like, you would just say,I work here or I do that.
Like, it's, you know.
Instead of it having to be soattached with your identity.
(34:44):
Yeah.
One thing I walked awaythinking like, I got to get
better.
Deana Chukwuemeka (34:47):
Yeah.
Or what do I do?
I help people live or I helppeople be healthy versus I'm a
doctor.
Right.
Like, yeah.
Dr. Shay (34:56):
Yeah.
Thinking about how we, saythese things.
It matters because we attach somuch of ourselves to it.
And then again, like you said,that's when the identity crises
come and we don't know how toseparate the two or you lose one
of the things or maybesomething-
Deana Chukwuemeka (35:08):
Or it changes.
Or it changes all the time.
I think that's the issue isbecause we're changing all the
time, even as we're doingsomething, we're already
outdated to who we thought wewere as we keep doing that
thing.
You know what I mean?
And then I remember hearingsomething like, then you don't
do a software update on yourselfand you're still functioning
off of your old self.
Like you have to update yoursoftware.
(35:29):
And that's where I'm really,for me, the asking the
questions, the reflecting, theassessments, the writing is so
you can do that software upgradeinternally so that you make
sure that, you know, like, areyou on the right track for you?
Not for other people.
Like, are you on the righttrack for yourself and who
you're becoming season byseason?
Dr. Shay (35:47):
Yeah, I love that comparison, like a software
update, because we know how slowour computers get when we don't
do
Deana Chukwuemeka (35:52):
it.
Yeah, and guess what?
They force those updates on us,but we do not force updates on
ourselves.
We keep functioning at adefault.
But your phone is going toremind you every day until you
update your phone.
Dr. Shay (36:05):
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, that's what you're herefor, to remind us to update,
right?
Yeah.
Girl, you know I could talk toyou all day and night.
All day, all day.
But I want to thank you so muchfor coming on today.
Can you let everyone know whereto follow you and your work?
Deana Chukwuemeka (36:20):
Yes.
So I'm Dina B Speaks everywhereon Instagram, DinaBSpeaks.com
to learn about my coaching, themasterclasses, Instagram, Dina
Chukwemeka.
I'm sure you'll have that tospell it, but yes.
I'm spelling for you.
Yes.
Dr. Shay (36:39):
Well, thank you.
So as Dina reminded us, clarityisn't just about having a plan.
It's about listening to yourown voice.
Career transformation doesn'thave to look dramatic to be
powerful.
Sometimes it begins with aquiet question.
Is this still aligned with whoI'm becoming?
And if you've ever felt stuck,unseen, or like your ambition
was outpacing your joy, let thisbe a reminder.
(37:00):
Alignment is possible and youdon't have to figure it out
alone.
As always, thank you forjoining me today in the
Resolution Room.
I'm grateful you're here doingthis work alongside me.
If this episode spoke to you,I'd love for you to please
share.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
Today's conversation is aboutmore than just jobs or
(00:43):
promotions.
It's about who you are becomingthrough the work that you do.
I'm joined by DeanaChukwuemeka, a career coach who
helps people get clear,confident, and aligned in their
professional lives, not by justchasing titles, but by
reconnecting with themselves.
We'll explore how ambition canfeel empty when it's not
grounded in purpose, why so manyof us second-guess our own
(01:05):
instincts, and how learning toask for more is often the first
step towards realtransformation.
Whether you're mid-career, juststarting out, or somewhere in
between, this episode is areminder that your path doesn't
need to be perfect.
It just needs to be yours.
Deana, can you please introduceyourself to the people?
Deana Chukwuemeka (01:23):
Thank you so much, Dr.
Lowe.
I'm Deana Chukwuemeka.
I am a career coach.
I'm also a project manager.
I'm a mom of three.
I'm a wife, and I am committedto helping professionals really
get beyond the waiting to bepicked, like owning their
(01:45):
careers for themselves.
And my work really centersaround helping people align
their career goals with whatthey actually need, where they
actually are in the season thatthey are.
So they're not living a careerthat they're pressured to be.
So I'm so excited to talk withDr.
Lo and get into this becausethis is something I'm very, very
beyond passionate, very, verycommitted to working with people
(02:09):
in this space.
Dr. Shay (02:10):
Amazing.
Thank you.
So you help people align theirvision with their strengths.
Why is that clarity so hard tofind on your own?
Deana Chukwuemeka (02:20):
Because we're literally in it.
When you're in something, whenyou're living it, when you're
going through the hard moments,I think a lot of times it's just
hard to zoom out, right?
All of us are operatingliterally from the default,
whether we realize it or not,we're operating from what we've
been told, what we've beentaught.
And so we're responding toothers' expectations.
(02:41):
Our brains are trying toprotect us, so we're chasing
safety.
We're literally always tryingto prove something, even
subconsciously.
And so clarity for me requiresa level of pause, a level of
slowing down.
And that's what coaching for medoes.
I've been coached for probablymore than half of my life, and
then I coach people.
I think having a coach helpsyou step back, get honest, and I
(03:05):
would say reconnect with, ifyou're honest with yourself,
reconnect with the voice that isreally yours.
Dr. Shay (03:12):
And I love how you bring up if you're honest with
yourself because I thinksometimes the gap with coaching
is people just are waiting forsomeone just to give you the
answers.
Deana Chukwuemeka (03:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (03:20):
Actually, explain a little bit about what coaching
means.
Deana Chukwuemeka (03:23):
Okay.
You know, everyone has in thisspace of the way we use social
media, I would say coaching,consulting, mentoring, they all
have different definitions.
I always say my job as a coachis literally to help you move
forward.
So when people start bringingup things of past and things
they're dealing with, becauseit's always there, I'm always
(03:44):
like, this may be a thing youneed to work with a therapist on
because there's some things youneed to work on from there.
Now, what I can do is literallyhelp you move forward into that
thing you're wanting to getinto.
And so there's different levelsto coaching, but that is what I
see myself as, helping you moveforward.
Dr. Shay (04:01):
And can you talk a little bit about how you guide
someone to trust themselves insuch an unsure process in their
lives?
Deana Chukwuemeka (04:08):
Yeah, a few things I have here.
I would say one is getting intocuriosity and out of judgment.
So a lot of times we're judgingourselves and it all starts
with self-awareness.
Yes, it's a word people use.
People think they know what itmeans, but Self-awareness for me
is what's the story that you'vebeen telling yourself?
And then we basically reframethat story.
I'm not handing out answers.
(04:30):
You know, you said thatsometimes people expect coaches
to hand out answers.
I cannot give you the answersthat you need, but I can help
you, I would say, excavate theones that are inside you.
Like you have the answers foryou in this season.
And confidence for me is builtwhen, I mean, you already know.
You already know and looking atwhat do you know and then
literally saying, taking theforward action because
(04:51):
confidence is built throughmoving forward.
And then I would say a lot oftimes is helping people rebuild
trust with their voice.
A lot of times people don'tknow their voice.
their inner voice.
So I've been doing a lot ofresearch on some neuroscience
and just like looking at how dopeople move from a place of not
just reflecting, but acting andacting with alignment.
(05:13):
And the way that our brains areliterally wired is patterns.
And so when we start makingthose small steps, you're
talking about how do we helppeople trust themselves again?
It's in the small steps.
It's in the small decisionsthat they have to make.
Their confidence growsemotionally and but also
neurologically when they're ableto literally step into that
consistently.
Dr. Shay (05:34):
Consistency, that's the key.
I was waiting for that word.
I was like...
Deana Chukwuemeka (05:38):
You said that it was coming.
Dr. Shay (05:40):
Exactly.
And you brought up alignment,which is really important.
So can you talk to me a littlebit about the difference between
just ambition in its own andaligned ambition?
Deana Chukwuemeka (05:49):
Ambition for me is...
Chasing the next best thing.
And I don't think there'sanything wrong with ambition.
I work with lots of ambitiouspeople.
I, myself, am very ambitious.
I'm futuristic.
I'm always looking for what canI do next?
How can I grow?
So that's ambition.
But I think aligned ambition...
has more to do with somethingthat you're building with the
(06:09):
season that you're in.
And I've come to learn thatthrough my own life.
So ambition is like, I'm justchasing, chasing, chasing.
I have my own goal.
Whatever I had even five yearsago, I'm still chasing this
path.
But being aligned is more aboutpurpose.
And so you're not just saying,can I do this?
Because the answer may be yes.
But for me, it's, should I dothis?
In this season, should I bedoing this?
(06:30):
Does this fit my life today?
Does it align with my values?
So can I?
Great.
But should I?
I think is the better question.
Dr. Shay (06:36):
As you were talking, this kind of came to my mind.
Do you see a difference betweenpassion and purpose?
Are those one in the same or doyou kind of like someone's
really passionate aboutsomething, but maybe it actually
isn't their purpose?
Yeah.
Deana Chukwuemeka (06:51):
Yeah.
So I'm a big, what is the wordmean person?
I like defining words.
Even as I coach, I'm alwaysasking people, what does success
mean for you?
What does family mean for you?
What does promotion mean foryou?
So passion, I'm just looked itup now.
Passion is an intense feelingor enthusiasm for something,
often a personal enjoyment.
Purpose is defined as a deeperreason or goal that motivates an
(07:15):
individual.
So while passion is like aninward focused thing, I think
purpose is outward.
Purpose is for serving othersand passion is kind of like for
my well-being.
That's how I distinguish it.
You need both.
Right.
But I think.
And we've overused the wordpassion so much that people
don't, they don't trust thatword anymore or they see that
(07:35):
it's a bad thing to havepassion.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with it, but you can't be
passionate about your job everysingle day.
So I think you do need both,but there is a difference.
Dr. Shay (07:46):
Interesting.
I think even the things thatyou're passionate about, you're
not going to wake up with thatsame enthusiasm every day.
No,
Deana Chukwuemeka (07:54):
we're human.
So, I mean, I think it'sunrealistic to think just
because you're passionate aboutit, you're going to always be
excited about it.
Dr. Shay (08:02):
Right.
And so thinking about, youknow, again, for ambitious
people, um, You usually have aplan in place.
You know, you're chasing goalsA, B, C, sometimes all the way
up to Z.
So when we think about detoursin those plans, what do those
look like in a career and whatcauses them?
Deana Chukwuemeka (08:21):
Yeah, I think sometimes before the detour
happens, I think what ishappening is a lot of burnout.
A lot of times with my clientsis they're burnt out or they're
feeling disconnected or they'restaying in roles that just don't
fit them anymore.
And I think this happens when,again, you may be moving in the
direction you wanted to, but itmight be outdated.
And so we stop kind oflistening to ourselves, checking
(08:44):
in with ourselves.
And then I think the fear getsa little bit loud.
And then you kind of forgetwhat was the vision for this
thing?
Why did I start this thing?
And so it's kind of a level ofsurvival mode I think people get
into.
And I think that's where it'slike people start looking like,
oh, no, I have to detour.
Now I have to change something,right?
And The danger to me isn'tnecessarily the detour.
(09:05):
It's that you're staying inthat detour or you're staying
lost in it too long when you canliterally just shift out of it.
Dr. Shay (09:15):
And I guess when you're navigating someone going
through obviously a big careerchange, there's going to be
changes along the way.
And I guess how do you helpsomeone determine whether it's a
detour as in like it'sfear-based versus a sort of
needed detour to get to wherethey really want to be?
Deana Chukwuemeka (09:33):
Well, I will say that a book that I love that
helped me even reframe a lot ofthis, Marshawn Evans Daniels
has a book called BelieveBigger.
And she talks a lot aboutdisruption and the way we see
what disruption is, pain, right?
When things happen, they don'tgo our way.
Like, what does that reallymean for our lives?
And so for me, the detour isneutral, right?
(09:54):
There's no attachment to it.
Whatever we use to define thatdetour, if it's negative or
positive, is what determineswhat you do with it.
Because I'm also not in thecamp of saying, I don't know,
maybe you've heard that quote,the person who's wandering, it
doesn't mean they're lostnecessarily.
There's nothing wrong to wanderand nothing wrong to say, I'm
(10:15):
taking some time to justexplore.
So I don't want to box people'sdetours and to say it's only
negative, but I will say thatit's Kind of like your car, it's
kind of an indicator thatsomething may need to change.
I
Dr. Shay (10:29):
love that.
Thinking about, we talked alittle bit about fear coming up
in the middle of the journey.
So how do things like fear,imposter syndrome, or people
pleasing show up in careerdecisions?
Deana Chukwuemeka (10:41):
That's literally the work.
Before we get to any of thestrategy things and the things
that people can do consistentlyand how do we measure that, it's
really this internal narrativethat we're working on day in and
day out, literally.
Fear activates the mandulaoblongata, and that's literally
like the brain's threat center.
We're human, so fight andflight is natural to our bodies,
(11:05):
to our system.
It's the way we start makingdecisions like how to protect
myself.
Whenever someone is dealingwith that fear and imposter
syndrome and it's internal, itcan come through kind of like
people pleasing.
I would say there's oftenstrategies or coping strategies
that people use do day in andday out, whether they know it or
not, to literally protectthemselves from that perceived
(11:26):
rejection.
I think what a lot of goodcoaches do is help you quiet
that fear so that you canliterally hear the truth again.
So when I work with a clientand they're like, someone's told
me that I'm too quiet to be aleader.
First of all, what is thedefinition of a leader?
And what examples of leadershave you seen?
Is it only extroverted?
So I've given someone thatexercise, like find leaders who
(11:49):
are in different spaces thatcarry a leadership personality
that is unlike what you see orunlike the ones that get
promoted.
The Steve Jobs, the, you know,we can name, but even the
Oprahs, right?
They have a certain personalityand they often get shown that
this is leadership.
And so I challenge, I'm like,look for leaders who do not have
(12:10):
that personality, right?
Because we have to startquieting that voice of fear or
only like the things that you'reseeing so you can actually see
what is true and the thing thatyou're working on.
Dr. Shay (12:21):
I love that.
And, you know, the conversationon leadership can be its own
episode.
Yeah, I have a lot of opinionsabout that.
But again, it's not just atitle, it's a way of showing up.
And so I like how you recommendpeople finding maybe even
leaders that look more like yourpersonality style or whatever
that is, and figuring out whatleadership looks like in
(12:43):
specific spaces.
I think that's really key.
It's not one type of leader,right?
Deana Chukwuemeka (12:46):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (12:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So can you share some firststeps that you'd recommend when
someone realizes that theydrifted from their own vision?
Deana Chukwuemeka (12:55):
Yes.
I literally, I use thisframework and repeat rinse and
repeat different ways is pause.
I literally just pause.
Don't rush to.
Yeah.
Don't rush to fix it.
Start with reflection.
I know it seems like whenyou're stopping to reflect or
you're stopping to journal oryou're stopping to think and to
(13:17):
process and ask the samequestions, I know it literally
feels like, what am I doing?
I'm not making movement.
I say start there because theworld we live in is very fast.
And so a lot of times peopleare taking in so much
information.
We're consumers of a lot ofknowledge.
We have social media, we havepodcasts, we have things we're
(13:37):
reading.
And I often ask people, howmany times is your thought, your
original thought?
Because it's like, you'realways taking in stuff and then
you're responding from there.
So just taking a moment topause and ask, what was I hoping
this season would give me?
Or what was I thinking thisseason would be like?
Or what do I feel like I'mlosing in this season?
(13:58):
So maybe what feels heavy inthe detour is it's, getting you
to the point of what is true fornow.
And I would say that sometimesthis shift isn't about leaving
everything behind.
It's literally just adjustingthe lens in which we see it and
then realigning our next stepsso we can actually step into
where it is that we want to go.
Dr. Shay (14:19):
Absolutely.
And I love that you talkedabout the sense of urgency that
we feel every day, right?
Everything is really quick.
Everything is a seven-day or30-day challenge of transforming
your life.
And that's just not how itworks.
Deana Chukwuemeka (14:33):
It's not.
And as someone who uses socialmedia and I've studied
marketing, I probably was thestudent that people are like,
why are you always askingquestions?
I get what they're doing withsome of that, but it's like, if
we're going to say, let's do aseven-day challenge or a 21-day
challenge or a 100-daychallenge, let's be honest about
what is happening there.
(14:54):
Now, I totally believe intransformation, just like you
said, but it's not overnight.
And I often use the caterpillarto the butterfly.
It's just, to me, the mostbeautiful one because it's like
the caterpillar is not, youwould never expect it to be a
butterfly.
But transformation does startwhen you start something.
Seven days can help you sparkor be a catalyst to your
(15:16):
transformation, but it'sliterally just a spark and you
have to keep that spark goinglong enough for it to truly be
what you would calltransformation.
Dr. Shay (15:23):
So for someone who's already kind of gone through
this transformation process, andnow let's just say they're at
their sort of dream job, whatkeeps people from asking for
more?
Whether they're building thatjob up themselves, or they
started a new position, butmaybe they had to start off
lower level, they have to go up.
They've been at this companyfor five years or six years, and
(15:44):
they're ready for that nextstep.
But we always kind of get inour own way of going to that
next level.
So how do you coach themthrough that discomfort?
Deana Chukwuemeka (15:53):
Yeah, I will start.
Let me start here.
I think a lot of us were taughtthat asking makes us difficult,
like we're difficult peoplebecause we're asking, or that if
something was for us, it wouldjust come.
It would be easy, right?
So I think there's this idea ofbecause it's not easy, it's not
for me.
So I think we over-function andthen we under-advocate.
(16:14):
We're literally busy, busy,busy, but we're not advocating
for ourselves.
And so I really trying my bestwhen I'm working with the
clients to shift from the, whatif they say no to what if they
say yes, because I finallyasked, because you asked.
And so we go through this wholenegotiation piece of, I mean, I
work with so many HRprofessionals behind the scenes
to understand what doesnegotiation look like?
(16:37):
Do they expect people tonegotiate?
And the answer is always yes,because there's budget.
And when you don't negotiate,you're literally setting
yourself up to be underpaid forfor as long as you stay in the
company.
Because when you come into thecompany, you can negotiate to
the place where perceived value,all of those things, you're
setting yourself up to make morein the future.
(16:59):
Now, I will also say thatneuroscience, as much as I've
been reading about it, backsthis up very easily because
rejection and social disapprovalkind of activate the same thing
in our bodies as physical pain.
So we tend to avoid it.
So once we start reframing theask as neutral and even a part
(17:20):
of growth, like you need to beable to ask if you're going to
grow, then that's when for me westart to desensitize that fear
response to asking.
Dr. Shay (17:29):
And from doing that in your work, can you share like a
story where someone shifted howthey saw themselves and what
happened after thattransformation?
Deana Chukwuemeka (17:39):
Yeah, so I'll start off first with something
we talked about a little bitearlier about transformation.
The thing with transformationis that you need time, you need
time to actually see it.
And when I think about thisclient, she's one of my first
clients that I worked with whenI became official.
She's always been supportive ofme and she paid, like she paid,
we're friends, but she paid formy coaching.
(18:01):
I would say a lot of early winswhen we started what I call
transformationism, what happenedover the year or two years that
we really worked together.
And so one of the things thatshe started off with was
questioning her leadershipstyles.
And so she often wondered, youknow, got feedback about being
too quiet or not showing up in acertain way.
Someone who, similar to me,came to the U.S.
(18:24):
when we were young.
And so you're navigatingdifferent spaces.
And so she was kind of waitingfor someone to validate her
leadership.
And so we had to do a lot ofreframing around her impact and
really how she owned it outloud.
And owning it out loud for meis...
how she asked for more, how sheshowed up in meetings.
It wasn't just an externalshift.
(18:44):
It was really internal.
So I'm doing this, but what isthe impact to the team?
What's the impact to thecompany and really her overall
presence?
How do I show up in meetings?
Do I look like I'm timid or amI showing up with the authority
that I know that I have?
And so when we worked throughall of that and she was able to
ask for more little by little,like practicing asking for more
(19:05):
in meetings than in one-on-oneswith her manager, then, um, in a
company review, like, you know,year end review, asking for
more incrementally, she was ableto really those first three
months we worked together, shegot her first quarterly bonus
and not just the bonus, butsomeone nominated her for like
an excellent employee awardbased off of her work.
And so it, all of those littlethings that we're doing, we
(19:28):
weren't looking for that result,but because of that, those
results naturally came.
And so for me, of Thetransformation is more than
external.
It's more than the raise.
It's more than the promotion.
For me, it's about theconfidence and the peace that
she had within herself.
And for me, that was the realwin, truly.
Dr. Shay (19:45):
That's beautiful.
And I love the part that youemphasize about the increment
stages of transformation.
I think, again, we live in afast-paced society where
everybody wants everything now.
They want it overnight.
They want it yesterday.
And part of transformation isIt is a slow process, you know,
that's the key there.
(20:05):
It is a process.
And so how do you help yourclients realize that it takes
time and when it's done right,it's not rushed and what that
really looks like for them to gothrough each step of it behind
the scenes.
And I do want to add tosomething I see on social media
a lot.
Transformation looks noisy tome now.
(20:26):
Everyone's like, you know, it'sso easy no matter how
accomplished you are to goonline and see everyone else's
credentials and accolades andall these followers and all of
this.
And you're just like, what am Idoing wrong?
But the reality is you're notseeing all of the quiet pieces
that got to that point, right?
So how do you guide themthrough that part of the
transformation?
Oh,
Deana Chukwuemeka (20:45):
that in itself is a, literally so much
can be broken down from there.
Maybe I can start from what yousaid about transformation is
noisy.
Like that just hit me,honestly.
And, you know, bear with mebecause I'm thinking on the spot
here for sure.
I think we know it in our head,but we don't know it in our
(21:06):
heart is that transformation isnot always graceful.
It's messy, it's loud, and it'sfull of friction.
So when you said it's noisy,for me, that was like in the
best of ways.
But I'm getting to the otherside about the social media
thing.
And this is how I see it islike the reason why
transformation is noisy isbecause you're literally...
telling your brain to shift.
(21:27):
You're telling it to dosomething totally different,
right?
You know, we've been talking alot about the neuroscience thing
and how I've been geeking outon that, but you are forming new
patterns.
And so whether you're settingnew boundaries, you're choosing
rest, you're walking away fromthings that no longer fit, your
brain's default mode, you'redisrupting that, like literally,
(21:47):
right?
And that is uncomfortable.
It creates a The neutralpathway is being challenged,
like the neutral way you alwaysdo things, your default, your
status quo is being challenged.
And so when your system or yourbody, your mind, your belief,
all of those, it's trying tohold on to what feels familiar,
even when it's not workinganymore.
(22:09):
I think that's where the noisecomes from.
Like it feels noisy.
It feels disorienting.
What I always tell my clientsis it doesn't mean you're off
track because it feels hard now.
It doesn't mean you're offtrack because you're not seeing
the results you think you shouldbe seeing externally.
It doesn't even mean you're offtrack just because you don't
feel like you're growing.
It's just a reminder thatyou're in motion and that the
(22:31):
motion itself, the work itselfis that the work is working.
Now, what you're talking abouton social media with the noise
of transformation and I wouldsay the over emphasis on The
change outside of the process orthe overemphasis on the result
versus the process, I think iswhat we see.
People are selling a endresult.
(22:53):
And I get it because I alsostudied marketing, right?
Like I get it.
You're selling the result.
You're selling the promotion.
You're selling the, what is theend?
But very few people are beingvery honest about the process
that it takes.
And if we're honest and ifwe're truthful about anything
that we do, I'm always on thisthing of like, it takes 10 years
to have true success.
(23:13):
Or some people like the 10,000hours rule or whatever it is.
Mastery takes time.
Anything you're working ontakes time, but that's why the
destination is not the goal.
That's what I work on with myclients.
The process and the growth isthe goal.
So if you're measuring yourgrowth and it's not tied to a
definite destination, thentransformation, the noise, the
(23:38):
discomfort, it feels a The thingwith social media is just, it
is what it is.
And I always tell people,control your controllables.
If you are being distracted bywhat's on social media, you need
to change what's visible toyou.
You don't have to followeverybody.
You don't need to engage witheverything.
You can literally...
curate what you see and don'tsee.
(24:00):
So I always encourage peoplelike avoid the explore area if
that doesn't help you, right?
Like make sure that you're onlyfollowing people who when you
scroll, it's either motivatingyou, teaching you, you know,
those types of things.
So it keeps you out of thenoise of this false idea of I'm
behind or I'm not there yet, orI'm in year two, someone's in
(24:20):
year 20.
Like it just takes out all thatcomparison for me, all that
external noise.
Dr. Shay (24:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Deana Chukwuemeka (24:25):
Hopefully that answered your question.
Dr. Shay (24:27):
It did, absolutely.
And I was taking notes becauseI need to start doing that on my
checklist right now.
So if someone listening isfeeling stuck or unseen in their
work, what would you say tothem?
Deana Chukwuemeka (24:41):
I would have to ask more questions than what
I would say because that's whatI love about coaching is I'm so
curious about people and I'm socurious about like why this, why
that.
So I want to dig into reallywhat is the why because yes, I
can, offer a framework tofollow.
But with each of my clients, asI'm showing you a framework I
followed and other clients havefollowed, what you realize is
(25:04):
you're literally building yourown blueprint off of the
framework, right?
And so people often are feelingstuck or unseen or So I'd say a
few things.
So one, you're not crazy andyou're not behind.
Like you're not crazy becauseof all the things we talked
about.
The friction that people arefeeling is likely a sign that
(25:26):
they've outgrown the spacethey're in, not that they're
failing at it.
Because I think that's thefirst thing is people think, am
I failing?
Am I doing this right?
Right?
Another thing is you don't needto throw it all away, but you
do need to start listeningagain, or you do need to
reassess, or you do need to slowdown enough to reflect on what
(25:47):
it is.
The other thing I would say,which is you already have the
clues.
Your life is literally thepuzzle.
I'm helping ask questions tohelp you decode it, but you have
it.
we just need to decode it.
We just need to synthesize it.
We just need to make ittangible or we need to bring it
(26:07):
up to the surface.
You know what I mean?
Like you already have it.
So, I mean, a lot of women Iwork with are women of faith.
And so it's like, you don'thave to look externally for what
you're looking for.
If you believe in God as God,he already gave it to you.
You already got it.
You need to dig into thatinstead of looking for something
that's outside yourself, right?
(26:28):
Because when we feel stuck,again, it's like the question
is, why do you feel stuck?
A lot of it is I'm comparingmyself or I feel like I'm behind
on a plan that I put in my mind20 years ago.
Like when I was a teenager, Isaid I wanted to be this or
somebody told me to be this.
That's why you feel behind.
So just taking a moment toreally think about that and look
(26:50):
at where you may be misalignedversus feeling behind.
Good news is that your brain isliterally behind built for
change.
With the right reflection, withthe right intentional shifts,
you can rewire the way that youwork, the way you lead, and the
way you live, the way you think,the way you believe.
You can literally create, Ithink it's neuroplasticity.
Our brains can grow.
(27:12):
Our brains can change.
And so to get people unstuck, alot of times I start with one
simple question.
What do I need to do to feelproud of how I'm showing up?
Like proud of yourself.
And that's an internal thing.
And a lot of times people aretelling me what they need to do
is literally just keep their ownword or keep their own promise.
Because what we realize is alot of the things we're looking
(27:35):
for validation from otherpeople, we haven't done for
ourselves.
We want people to celebrate us.
Do you celebrate yourselfdaily, weekly?
We want people to advocate forus.
Do you advocate for yourselfdaily, weekly?
You know, those types ofthings.
So just look for thoseopportunities to say, I'm proud
of myself.
for showing up like this.
And so you are not stuck.
(27:56):
You're not behind.
It's literally a place ofreflection, a place to ask
better questions.
Dr. Shay (28:04):
While you were talking, I was thinking, is
there any research you comeacross that addresses how you
approach someone fromdifferentiating what I think I'm
supposed to be and do versuswhat I actually want to be and
do?
Deana Chukwuemeka (28:19):
I'm so interested because that is...
a part of the discussion thathappens a lot.
People are getting degrees,people are getting jobs, and
they're still feeling a level ofdisconnect.
There's one there.
Then there's this other thingof, I was on this path and now
I've become something that Ididn't know I would become.
The process as we're goingthrough it changes us because as
(28:43):
we talked about becomingwhatever, isn't just about that
destination or just about thatarrival.
You are literally adapting onthe go.
Dr. Shay (28:52):
You know what I mean?
Unfolding in real time.
Deana Chukwuemeka (28:53):
Unfolding.
Thank you.
That's a beautiful way to sayit.
Unfolding in real time.
And a lot of times we think weknow why we want this thing and
why we're going towards it.
And it changes or our mindschange.
But what, I mean, what Ibelieve in as a woman of faith
is nothing is ever wasted.
So- The process is the goal.
(29:14):
So you going through thatprocess, like without it, where
would you be?
Without it, what parts of youtoday would not be you?
You know what I mean?
And I think it's alsoreframing.
Yeah, people are like, you geta PhD and now what are you
doing?
But it's like me getting a PhDis a title to me, but it's not
(29:37):
who I am.
You went through this rigorousprocess of, Yeah, yeah.
Let's be honest, externally, itvalidates you, it validates the
(30:03):
interviews you do, the workthat you do.
But it's just another piece ofyou, right?
The PhD, I think it's nodifferent than when I work with
people, even with myself, Istruggled with when I left
corporate for the first time, itwas like, who am I without my
company's logo on my shirt?
Who am I without that title?
And For those two years, that'swhat I did.
(30:23):
That's why I think this workcame out the way it did.
I had to reflect on my identityoutside of the work.
And so when people are doingPhDs, I also tell them, as we're
going through this processtogether, start trying to
separate your identity from yourPhD.
Just see it as another, likemilitary people, it's another
badge of honor on you, but it'snot you.
(30:45):
Because who are you without it?
I wouldn't say it's a balance,but I think it's a constant
balance.
thing you have to be aware ofoutside of yourself my own coach
challenged me maybe a month agoshe's like write your bio and I
wrote my bio and I wrote whatI've done and different careers
I've had and she's like Dinawrite a bio without all of the
(31:06):
stuff like who are you who areyou without all of the stuff and
when I sat down to write that Iwas I was like it was hard I
No, like it was, it was reallyhard.
I'm bringing it up right now.
Cause it was, it was hard forme to be like, yes, who am I
without all of the other stuff?
Even though I know it, it'slike, how often are we being
(31:28):
challenged to write about who weare without all this stuff?
It's not really often.
And so I'm going to, I'm justgoing to like, I have Dina the
doer and then Dina beyond thedoer.
I won't read the whole thing.
Maybe I'll just read the firstsentence, but the doer is Dina
Trucamica is a results drivenproject manager and career
strategist known for her turningcomplex challenges into clear,
(31:49):
actionable pathways.
Dina, beyond the doer, Dina isa breath of clarity in a noisy
world.
She is a woman of presence,rooted in purpose, and anchored
in rhythm.
Like, it sounds totallydifferent.
It's totally different.
Dr. Shay (32:04):
That first part of your bio, we sound like the same
person.
Everyone's bio sounds like
Deana Chukwuemeka (32:09):
that.
We all are that, right?
But I even challenge you to dosomething like that.
Like, you know...
The PhD holder, Dr.
Lo, the PhD holder, and Nashay,who are you?
And to get to that, I think ifI remember, I had to put 20 I am
(32:30):
statements.
And that's why the first one,the I am statements were really
work focused.
They were...
results focused.
They were outcome focused.
They were value focused.
What do I give to other people?
And then when I had to writethe I am statement with no
rules, no virtues, but focusingon my essence, it was totally
different.
Dr. Shay (32:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Deana Chukwuemeka (32:51):
So
Dr. Shay (32:51):
there's a similar, God, I forgot where I got it
from.
But there was this exercisesomeone was telling someone to
do to get to the core of who youare, like outside of your
resume.
And you had to, I think you hadto write your eulogy and the
perspective of how you wantothers to remember you.
And that has nothing to do withtitles or what you did.
It's about how you make peoplefeel.
Deana Chukwuemeka (33:12):
Nothing at all.
Yeah, it's what we talked aboutearlier about the difference, I
think we said, between passionand purpose.
So yeah, you can, I mean,passion is good because it's
really about you.
But purpose is beyond thatbecause it's about you and how
are you to other people, right?
And even in the bio, then ittakes it a step further to say,
(33:33):
yes, you may have a purpose, butwhat's your purpose even beyond
what you do for other people?
Like what's your essence, howyou show up?
And of course we know thatimpacts how people see you too,
but even that would be somethingthat would be more of a eulogy
you would want versus theresume.
Right.
We're human, so we're taught toproduce and it's not bad.
It's just that we often forgetthat we are more than what we
(33:56):
produce, you know?
Dr. Shay (33:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just, one thing I'd tookthis away when I think I was in,
I want to say in Korea is wherefirst time it clicked for me,
but I realized just also justcultural differences.
So when you talk to a lot ofpeople from other cultures, when
you introduce, like, first ofall, one of the first things you
ask someone in the States islike, what do you do?
That's exactly.
And then you say, when yourespond, you say, Someone asked
(34:22):
you what you do, but yourresponse is, I am the thing, not
I do this thing.
And a lot of other culturesthat I've come across, when they
talk about their work, itsounds very separate from who
they are.
They really just say, like, Imean, some people will say,
like, I'm a doctor.
That makes more sense to say itthat way.
But, like, you would just say,I work here or I do that.
Like, it's, you know.
Instead of it having to be soattached with your identity.
(34:44):
Yeah.
One thing I walked awaythinking like, I got to get
better.
Deana Chukwuemeka (34:47):
Yeah.
Or what do I do?
I help people live or I helppeople be healthy versus I'm a
doctor.
Right.
Like, yeah.
Dr. Shay (34:56):
Yeah.
Thinking about how we, saythese things.
It matters because we attach somuch of ourselves to it.
And then again, like you said,that's when the identity crises
come and we don't know how toseparate the two or you lose one
of the things or maybesomething-
Deana Chukwuemeka (35:08):
Or it changes.
Or it changes all the time.
I think that's the issue isbecause we're changing all the
time, even as we're doingsomething, we're already
outdated to who we thought wewere as we keep doing that
thing.
You know what I mean?
And then I remember hearingsomething like, then you don't
do a software update on yourselfand you're still functioning
off of your old self.
Like you have to update yoursoftware.
(35:29):
And that's where I'm really,for me, the asking the
questions, the reflecting, theassessments, the writing is so
you can do that software upgradeinternally so that you make
sure that, you know, like, areyou on the right track for you?
Not for other people.
Like, are you on the righttrack for yourself and who
you're becoming season byseason?
Dr. Shay (35:47):
Yeah, I love that comparison, like a software
update, because we know how slowour computers get when we don't
do
Deana Chukwuemeka (35:52):
it.
Yeah, and guess what?
They force those updates on us,but we do not force updates on
ourselves.
We keep functioning at adefault.
But your phone is going toremind you every day until you
update your phone.
Dr. Shay (36:05):
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, that's what you're herefor, to remind us to update,
right?
Yeah.
Girl, you know I could talk toyou all day and night.
All day, all day.
But I want to thank you so muchfor coming on today.
Can you let everyone know whereto follow you and your work?
Deana Chukwuemeka (36:20):
Yes.
So I'm Dina B Speaks everywhereon Instagram, DinaBSpeaks.com
to learn about my coaching, themasterclasses, Instagram, Dina
Chukwemeka.
I'm sure you'll have that tospell it, but yes.
I'm spelling for you.
Yes.
Dr. Shay (36:39):
Well, thank you.
So as Dina reminded us, clarityisn't just about having a plan.
It's about listening to yourown voice.
Career transformation doesn'thave to look dramatic to be
powerful.
Sometimes it begins with aquiet question.
Is this still aligned with whoI'm becoming?
And if you've ever felt stuck,unseen, or like your ambition
was outpacing your joy, let thisbe a reminder.
(37:00):
Alignment is possible and youdon't have to figure it out
alone.
As always, thank you forjoining me today in the
Resolution Room.
I'm grateful you're here doingthis work alongside me.
If this episode spoke to you,I'd love for you to please
share.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com