August 22, 2025 • 45 mins
Summary
In this conversation, James Maurice Bumpas shares his experiences as a Black professional navigating predominantly white workspaces. He discusses the challenges of microaggressions, the difference between racism and prejudice, and the importance of belonging versus merely fitting in. James also delves into the complexities of code switching, the burden of representation, and how his definition of leadership has evolved over time. His insights provide a valuable perspective on the dynamics of race and leadership in professional environments.
Key Takeaways
- James Bumpas is the founder and CEO of Bumpus Technical Services.
- He shares experiences of being the only Black professional in high-tech jobs.
- Microaggressions often manifest as well-meaning but biased comments.
- Racism is defined by power dynamics, while prejudice is more individual.
- Fitting in requires compromise, while belonging is about authenticity.
- Code switching is a survival mechanism in professional settings.
- Staying grounded involves faith, self-awareness, and resilience.
- Representation in leadership roles can be burdensome for individuals.
- Leadership should focus on people, not just tasks.
- Continuous learning and mentorship are essential for effective leadership.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Shay (00:01):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest or human and more whole.
So let's get into it.
All right, James, can youintroduce yourself to the
audience, please?
James Bumpas (00:42):
I sure can, Dr.
Nashay.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I am James Maurice Bumpas.
I am founder and CEO of BumpusTechnical Services, and I
actually own an IT company, butI offer services around four
areas, IT program management andproject management.
(01:03):
I also do leadershipdevelopment, mentoring and
coaching and executive services.
And last but not least, I doprofessional speaking.
Dr. Shay (01:13):
Amazing, amazing.
So let's start off by talking alittle bit about your personal
experiences.
So can you share like an earlyexperience where you found
yourself being the only Blackprofessional in a workspace and
how that shaped yourperspective?
James Bumpas (01:30):
Sure, sure.
Thank you.
Actually, you know, born andraised in Tennessee, that
happens a lot.
I found at an early age I wasgifted in a technical
perspective, wound up inhigh-tech jobs.
I was an aviation electricianin the Navy, and there were not
a lot of aviation electriciansin the Navy that looked like me.
(01:52):
So Desert Shield, Desert Storm,I served 10 years in the Navy.
Setting myself apart wassomething I found challenging
for the overt and covert racismthat would occur in the service.
(02:14):
And so while they would professthat everybody was the same,
uniformity must prevail, therewere a lot of innuendos, a lot
of things said, a lot ofdifferences, hypocrisy in how
they would treat, my whitecounterparts versus me on having
(02:38):
to excel.
But when it came time for theexams, that was something I
found was truly uniform, wherebeing able to excel in the Navy
from an aviation electricianperspective, when you sit down
for your exam, It didn't matterwho you were.
Your knowledge, your studying,your ability to succeed in that
(03:05):
went back to your prep and yourexpertise in being able to make
rank.
Now, as you moved up throughthe ranks, it became more
subjective than objective.
So that's something that Iliked being able to say, I was
able to do it by my own merit upuntil you get into the higher
ranks when they start havingpanel reviews for you, which was
(03:30):
a lot more like the civiliancounterparts where it gets very
subjective and selective.
Dr. Shay (03:36):
Yeah.
Thank you for putting that inthe context too, because if I
can be candid, even deciding tohave this conversation on the
podcast, you know, gave me alittle pause because the
political climate and you haveto decide, am I willing to even
put myself out there to talkabout something like this?
But,
James Bumpas (03:53):
you
Dr. Shay (03:54):
know, everyone gets tired of talking about it.
I think more, more so ourselvesthan anybody else gets tired
James Bumpas (04:00):
of talking about it.
It can be exhausting.
You're right, Dr.
Nashay, but I got to tell you,I'm glad to have the
conversation.
I appreciate the, you know, theforum, the vehicle, the
opportunity to do so.
Cause a lot of times, you know,Sweeping it under a rug or not
having a conversation is notnecessarily always the right
solution either.
So I think talking about it andgetting it out there and then
(04:23):
doing it in a way that's moreconstructive than destructive is
the way to manage it.
Dr. Shay (04:28):
And this is why I'm talking to the right person
then, because I agree.
I think I want this episode tobe more informative than
anything.
I think, again, a lot ofassumptions can be made about
what other people are goingthrough.
But when you have someonegiving you just a perspective of
what their day-to-day lookslike, and it's things that you
will never have to experience,lucky for you, it's just helpful
(04:51):
for them to get that insight.
So Talk to me a little bitabout some of the invisible
dynamics people of color face inpredominantly white
professional environment.
James Bumpas (05:00):
Yeah, one of them is the whole, you're not like
most black people.
You know, when you start tohave allies and they befriend
you, they say things such as,and I say, when you say
invisible, I'll use one as ofthe level of uncomfortability in
(05:23):
the people that gravitatetowards you.
So if they consider themselvesfriends and allies, they'll say
things not even realizing thatit's racist or it's biased or
it's prejudiced in a sense thatthey feel like they're
connecting or they're giving youa compliment.
(05:46):
And I just gave you an examplein that, you know, you're one of
the good ones or you're notlike most black people.
And I'm like, oh, you know, youknow a lot of black people, do
you?
You know, and I'm like, I'llsay things and challenge them on
that dynamic of what that biasis, like what their mindset is
(06:06):
on what most black people arelike, you know, and challenge
those type of mindsets.
That's one.
The other one I findilluminating to me are the
jokes, you know, the racialjokes when they say, don't be
offended or, you know, I'm goingto tell a joke.
(06:27):
And and they set it up as apreamble, as if with their
little disclaimer that it's OKto be racist because, hey, it's
a joke.
And as I matured in the schoolsystems and college and in the
military, and especially inhigh-tech environments where I
was truly, like you said, theonly person of color in the
(06:51):
room, especially as a black man.
And I won't say only person ofcolor, because as I.T.
as I.T.
continues to evolve, there area lot of people from the Middle
East and from Southwest Asia inthe room and Asian.
But black wise, I was the onlyone in the room.
But they would say things like,I'm going to tell a joke.
(07:12):
And, you know, because I issuedthis disclaimer, it's OK.
So don't take offense.
So I got to where I would stopthem.
I would say, if you have toissue this little disclaimer,
don't even tell me the jokebecause I'm not going to find it
funny if you have to single meout and say, don't be offended.
I said, I don't even want tohear the joke.
And that took courage because alot of times you don't want to
(07:39):
have to make a scene or you wantto go along and get along in
some cases.
But I found that the people whowould tell those jokes, you
know, that was...
a way to let racism in and callit a joke.
And so I call it passiveaggressive, you know, a passive
aggressive behavior ormicroaggression in a sense.
(08:03):
So I would, I stop it.
Like being a leader from themilitary all the way forward,
not only would I not condonehearing it, I would condone
hearing it from my team.
So, you know, I would kind ofset a tone for conversations
that would be very well-roundedor accepting of everyone.
Dr. Shay (08:24):
Amazing.
And that's what leadership is,right?
Modeling what you want
James Bumpas (08:27):
to see.
And unfortunately, a lot oftimes you stand alone because
you get that from your peerleadership team.
Dr. Shay (08:32):
Very true.
Very true.
I'm curious from just yourpersonal experiences, which
you've studied in yourbackground, how do you
differentiate between racism andprejudice?
James Bumpas (08:47):
Yeah, very good question.
I'm hearing a lot about this alot lately.
And I think racist is when yourprejudice allows you to be in a
position of power and you canhold it over and actually
negatively impact another personof a different ethnicity or
your belief system is differentthan theirs.
So racism is about power.
(09:10):
Like I can be prejudicedbecause I'm different than
another person or I don't likehow they treat me or others.
Or I don't I don't like thembecause I'm biased and I'm
different than another person.
Everybody has biases.
But if I'm in a position ofleadership like I am now as a
CEO, you know, and I have awhite person on my team and I'm
(09:32):
using that prejudice.
to make them feel lesser or tosingle them out and oppress
them, then I'm a racist in thatparticular case, in that
dynamic.
So the power dynamic outside ofmy company, most times, You
know, the system, especiallyhere in the United States or the
(09:53):
UK or any system built uponslavery or the systems that's in
place like the United States issuch that we don't have the
power to hold down anotheranother people.
Dr. Shay (10:07):
OK, so what I'm hearing is it sounds like racism
is more at the systemicinstitutional level and
prejudice sounds like it's moreat the individual level.
Relational level.
James Bumpas (10:18):
Yeah.
And also power.
Like if I can have if I can ifI can use my influence and
position over another person,then then yes.
At the micro level, like in mycase, I'm an entrepreneur.
And let's say I have a staff offive people and I'm using my
(10:39):
prejudice and my biases tonegatively impact or oppress
another person on my team.
then at that micro level, Icould be considered in that
bubble, in that boundary to be aracist.
However, in the system, thesystem of things in the United
States, it's typically gonna bethe people that's had the system
(11:03):
built around them to oppressand hold back.
So yes, systematically it'sbeen designed for the majority
population.
That's my opinion.
Dr. Shay (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so when we're talkingabout, again, we'll stick to
like workplace dynamics, Iguess.
How do you distinguish betweenfitting in and belonging?
James Bumpas (11:34):
Ah, very good question.
Belonging is such that it'snatural.
Fitting in, you're making aconscious decision to set aside
your belief system, your mindsetor thought process and you're
not necessarily as comfortable,but you're there, you're in the
space, you're physically in theroom, but you can feel alone in
(11:55):
a room full of people, that'sfitting in.
That's when you're like, okay,I don't really agree with what's
being said, or I don't agreewith what's being done, but I'm
here, I have access.
Belonging is one where I'm notonly in the room, I'm aligned
with the mission, vision, valuestatements.
(12:15):
I'm contributing.
I feel like I'm valued by theresources in the room, whether
they are peers, whether they arejunior to me by seniority, or
whether they are senior to me.
So belonging is one where whatI brought to the table is able
(12:36):
to assist in the organization tomake a difference.
and I'm being called on for myexpertise and vice versa.
Dr. Shay (12:46):
And so building on that, thinking about balancing
authenticity and adaptability,when we talk about code
switching, I'm curious how youapproach that in a way that
protects your energy andidentity.
But I do wanna, I will pointthat even outside of just the
workplace or black whitedynamics, Code switching, how I
(13:07):
was actually introduced to it.
I have a handful of Africanfriends who I love to death.
And when I first, so that whenI'm with them, you would think
they're born and raised inAtlanta.
And then when I go to their,meet their families and I'm
like, who are you?
Like the way you start talkingchanges, the way you move
changes.
It is insane to me.
(13:28):
One of my closest friends isfrom Congo.
And, um, When
James Bumpas (13:32):
I first saw her, I'll tell you in a minute, we'll
go ahead.
Dr. Shay (13:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when I first saw her, youknow, she took me to her church
for a weekend, predominantly,you know, uh, African community.
And I was like, where am I?
I've known her for like 10years and I've never seen
James Bumpas (13:48):
her.
Yeah.
I think, I think code switchingis a survival mechanism.
I think, um, I think we do itautomatically, um, as a survival
mechanism and also from arelatability perspective, like,
um, I'm born and raised here inTennessee as a good example.
However, you notice I don'thave a Tennessee twang.
(14:08):
On certain words, you will hearit, but if you had my brothers
in the room or my parents orpeople who never left my
hometown, their dialect's verycountry.
That's a good example.
And also, As you progress upthe education chains, you being
a doctor, you get this.
How you speak professionally,me being a professional speaker,
(14:29):
how you handle yourself in acorporate setting, that's a form
of code switching as well,where you have to talk the lingo
and you have to carry yourselfin a certain manner.
But the cultural code switchingis unique in the sense that
I've been in environments whereI wasn't quote unquote black
enough, and I've been inenvironments where I was too
(14:50):
black.
And what I had to learn as Icontinued to mature and get to
know who I was is that I'mextremely comfortable in the
skin I'm in now.
But when I was younger, thatwas a struggle.
you know, of who am I, youknow, that identity crisis.
And, you know, that has to dowith my faith.
That has to do with knowing whoI am, what I bring to the table
(15:13):
and just, you know, learning tobe patient and understanding
that I got to be who I am.
So I know who I am.
So I'm, I'm not sendingcontradictory messages, you
know, and a lot of it happened,Dr.
Neshea, when I became a parent,because I, You know, I couldn't
very well tell my children tobe comfortable in who they are.
(15:35):
And then I'm the one switchingand pivoting and being, what I'm
trying to say, like all overthe place with my personality
trying to fit in.
So, you know, like you mentionedAfrican.
I've done my ancestry throughafricanancestry.com and also
(16:00):
through ancestry.com.
I'm actually from Congo.
Really?
Yeah.
I got a percentage from Congo.
I got a percentage from theCameroon, Rwandan area, the
whole slave Ivory Coast,naturally.
A lot of us came through thatdirection, but I have Congo in
me as well.
(16:20):
So it's funny that that's thefirst country you mentioned from
the continent of Africa.
But you're right.
I have a lot of African friendsand friends I call them family
because we got familyeverywhere.
Right.
And and some of them don't likeus because we don't show who we
(16:41):
truly are.
And I try to explain to them wedon't know who we truly are
because our histories werestolen and we've been fed in
this country with a lot of falseinformation.
false history.
You know, history is told bythe victor.
Victor, not the victim, so tospeak.
So, you know, with theinformation age, we are
(17:05):
relearning our history.
And even some of the Africansfrom the northern part of Africa
were misled.
It was a major misinformationcampaign that we left on our
own, you know.
So I had some people fromnorthern Africa that I met in
Israel treat me harshly as anAfrican-American, you know, or a
(17:28):
black man, because theythought, you know, they were
told by the European settlers,their ancestors generations ago,
people that they love, youknow?
So what do you do when yourparents or your parents' parents
tell you that, you know, theAfrican people left on their
own, you know?
And so that gave me a differentdynamic from being upset with
(17:51):
some of the Africans thattreated us funny.
And so I know that wasn't all.
But when you look at theEuropeans who just want to
continue trading with the NorthAfrican countries, they were
looking at it from a commerceperspective, passing poor
information, you know, and I'mnot making excuses.
(18:12):
This is just what I found out,you know, through my travels,
being able to travelinternationally.
And I found that interesting.
I found that history, yetagain, something that I had
never learned growing up.
So it doesn't, in my opinion,give Africans or North Africans
(18:32):
the right to mistreat or judgeus, by and large, to be taking
against our will as chattelslavery in the United States.
But it's a real situation withthe whole idea of how do I fit
in and how do I code switch tofit the situation?
(18:54):
I like the videos my wife willshow me walking through on
TikTok.
She'll just say, hey, checkthis out.
And some of them are funnywhere you'll see like a black
person walk into a coffeelounge.
And depending on who theyengage with, they literally
switch how they engage on thefly.
(19:14):
And so Keegan Peele was one ofthe comedy shows I always liked.
And they show Keegan Peele dothat so smoothly when he was
playing Barack Obama aspresident.
I don't know if you've seenthat skit, but it tickled me
where he was like, when heengaged with Black people, he
(19:36):
was dapping them up and doing,hey, pleasure to meet you,
pleasure to meet you.
And then he's like, what's up,what's up?
But I just love that because mywife tells me all the time, and
I didn't notice it until shebrought it.
She's Mexican.
She's of Mexican descent.
And she says, I love how Blackpeople greet each other.
You know, she said, you alllook at each other and you say,
it's like, it's almost unheardof the way you look.
(19:59):
You say, I see you.
And we'll smile and we'll nodto each other or we'll speak in
a way like, like, good to seeyou, brother, you know, good to
see you, sister.
And it's this family, thisfamilial connection.
And she said, we don't do that.
You know, you know, she's fromTexas and she'll say, we don't
do that.
I said, well, you do differentthings that I see that's very
(20:21):
family based, you know.
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (20:23):
And
James Bumpas (20:26):
so now how like the things that I admire in her
culture, when she said, you'reright, you're right.
We do that and we do this.
And like, she's very close withher sisters and her brother.
They just have such a tightunit and they've welcomed me in
as her husband into that tightfamily.
Dr. Shay (20:41):
That's amazing.
Yeah.
And, you know, there's so muchyou said I could unpack, but
that would be a completelydifferent episode.
Yeah.
But I will say, as far as thecode switching, I think to a
certain extent, too, there's,you know, it gets a negative
connotation or association withit.
I mean, there's a time andplace sometimes because, like
(21:01):
you said, there's nothing wrongto me with being adaptable.
I mean, different situationscall for different things.
James Bumpas (21:09):
You know, and it's a quality.
It's a characteristic that wehold in high regard, especially
as you move up the leadershipladder.
chain in your organizations orin your own when you when you
have a company and you have toengage with people with
different cultures and differentmindsets different backgrounds
and so you know socioeconomiceducation all the different ways
(21:29):
you know like me and you as anexample i would i would be
remiss to assume that there'snot diversity amongst me and
you.
And I need to be, I don't wantto assume, right?
I don't want to assumeanything.
And so I want to approach youproperly and be respectful and
not come up, what's up girl?
(21:50):
And all this, like, I don'tknow you're up, you know what I
mean?
And sometimes you'll see ittoo.
You'll see some people getoffended If you approach them
too casually and they look likeus.
Right.
Dr. Shay (22:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Case by case, you know, likewe're all individuals as well.
So absolutely.
So talk to me a little bitabout what strategies have
helped you stay grounded inspaces that expect you to
conform.
James Bumpas (22:16):
Yeah.
Good point.
Number one, my faith, my wife,remembering who I am.
One of the things my parents,it's funny.
I'm knocking on 54, right?
Dr.
Neshea, I'll be 54 in August.
And I think what's funny, thankyou.
I think what's funny is advicemy parents gave me at 17 years
(22:38):
old.
You know, like here I amleaving for bootcamp and my dad
told me one thing and my momtold me one thing and it wasn't
at the same time.
But right before I left, lefthome at 17, my dad said, always
have thick skin.
And my mom said, always bewilling to talk to people.
And so those two together at ayoung age really helped mold and
(23:03):
become almost a mantra for mein a sense of being able to
engage with any and everybody,even people I knew were racist
and they were proud of it.
And like I say, the servicethrows you all together and you
gotta make it work.
And so some people were verybold about it, but they were
willing to talk And noteverything they said was worth
(23:25):
hearing, naturally, but I waswilling to listen and not always
get so emotionally hijacked bywhat they were saying.
And it was a guy in my bootcamp in my company from West
Virginia.
And doctor didn't say I foundhim staring at me so many times.
It was awkward.
(23:45):
Like, what's up with this guy?
You know, like, he was staringat me.
And so finally, I approachedhim.
I said, hey, man, why you keepstaring at me?
And he was like, look, man, I'mfrom a small town in West
Virginia.
By the way, this is 1989.
I want to put it inperspective.
He says, in my small town, wehave one other Black family.
(24:07):
And you're nothing like mygrandmother said.
So here he is, raised by hisgrandmother, who went to New
York, had a horrible experience,right?
And poured all this negativityabout black people into her
(24:27):
grandson who then joins the Navyand he meets me and he's willing
to say that to me.
And I didn't know how to acceptit, but being from Tennessee,
growing up where you're theminority with a lot of white
people all around you, you know,I was like taking a back a
(24:49):
little bit, but then he openedup and we, we wound up having a
lot in common.
He was willing to reach out.
We wound up being, we bothboxed back then.
My dad was a golden gloves inthe Vietnam era of army.
And, uh, he boxed, he taughtall his boys how to box.
It was three of us.
I'm the middleman.
And, uh, And so this guy,Rodney, he boxed.
(25:13):
And so we kind of connected onthat, you know.
And so we would train togetherin the evenings and in our own
little time.
But the bottom line is in twoshort, you know, two and a half
short months, three months ofboot camp, you know, I totally
changed his opinion.
It wasn't the intent.
(25:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It was just being me, you know.
And so...
What I learned from that earlywas continue to be yourself to
your point, staying grounded,being willing to talk, having
thick skin, not being so easilyoffended, but also standing your
(25:55):
ground.
Don't roll over to fit in andbe abused by people.
Like I've never liked bullies.
Like, you know, I thought a lotgrowing up.
And now I fight with my brainlike corporate bullies and
people who have positions ofpower like the police or like
politicians or like people inpositions of leadership over you
(26:19):
in the workplace.
You know, that office bullyingand workplace mobbing, you know,
those are my targets now whenthey target and identify people
who are aren't necessarilystrong enough to stand up for
themselves.
And so I find myself with thatprotector spirit getting between
(26:44):
them and the people they'rebullying.
And so I find that the reason Ifocus so much on leadership as
it came out in my chapter in thebook that I became published on
was by good leadership and badleadership, I find that there's
a leadership deficit and it'shorrible across the world, the
(27:07):
globe.
And I found that that's thegift that God gave me to focus
on and dig into and learn.
So when people ask me, is agood leader made or is he born?
And I say, yes.
Both?
Yeah, both, because you have tocontinue to hone your craft.
(27:29):
You know, it's not all just Godgiven talent.
You also have to stay abreastof new techniques to engage with
people and meet them where theyare, you know, around the
introvert extrovert modelaround, you know, predictive
index around all the differenttools and techniques to allow
you to be successful and allowyour teams to be successful.
(27:50):
But all those aspects help mestay grounded and connected.
with people.
And remember that all peopleare leaders in their own house,
in their own homes every day.
And so meeting them where theyare and treat them with dignity
and respect is paramount.
Dr. Shay (28:08):
Amazing.
Yes.
That's so many things I want totouch on, but I'll start here.
Going back to the power of thestories that are handed down to
us that aren't even our own.
and how they become what leadsus.
That part really stuck with mebecause, again, I think that
happens so much where you findyourself, you almost wake up
(28:30):
maybe in your 30s or so, and youstart for the first time really
examining why you believeanything you believe, and you
realize half the time you don'tknow.
You were just taught that.
James Bumpas (28:41):
Yeah, and for me, it happened in the 20s because
of my military experience.
And when you have threats...
against your life at an earlyage, you do examine yourself
earlier.
You know, like whether it's thestreet life or the military
life or any situations ofdanger, you know, if given the
(29:05):
chance, a lot of people willanalyze or evaluate their life
at that point in time.
And so I did it earlier than alot of people did.
You know, like my kids, I saymy kids, my daughter, who's the
oldest, you know, she's 32 andshe's just now doing that.
Whereas my son who's, who justturned 29, he did nine years in
(29:29):
the army.
And so he's a bit more maturein this way of assessing his
life.
He's immature in other ways,but this, but the army kind of
accelerates that where you, youknow, that identity, who am I,
what am I about?
You know, what do I care about?
What I believe in?
In some ways, he's very stillimmature in that space.
(29:50):
Yeah.
In other ways, you know, thatthat morality, mortality
conversation you have insideyour head and start figuring it
out.
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (29:58):
Yeah, I like that.
And I actually want to have,I'll probably have to have you
back one later for a differentdiscussion about just military
because I actually, I haven'treleased it yet, but there's an
episode I'm going to remind youwhen it's out to listen to.
I interviewed another militaryguy who's also doing leadership
coaching.
And I would love for the two ofyou guys to hear two different.
Oh, that'd be nice.
Yeah, that would be reallyinteresting.
(30:19):
So, We kind of talked a littlebit earlier about, you know,
even those within the samecommunity, we have our
differences as well.
We're individuals.
So how do you and yourexperience sort of advocate for
representation withoutshouldering the burden of being
the spokesperson for an entirecommunity?
James Bumpas (30:39):
Well said.
Wow.
That's a mouthful.
Me and my wife talk about itall the time.
With her being Latina, she saysall the time, you know, as a
joke, well, when I go back to mypeople meeting, you know, when
we gather all my people, I'll besure to announce this at the
next meeting.
And we joke because, you know,I would do us a disservice as a
(31:02):
Black man if I ever thought Iwas speaking for anyone other
than myself.
So, I actually now tee it up assuch.
Anytime someone asks me aquestion, like why do you all
fill in the blank?
I make sure that when I answer,they understand I'm answering
(31:25):
from my perspective, myexperiences, the things I've
been through in my life and howI see things.
But to your point,representation does matter
because I don't want them tolean on me for that.
Especially as you move up inthe leadership ranks.
(31:47):
And I know it's taboo, but atoken.
I don't wanna be the only blackon the leadership team.
I don't wanna be the only manon the leadership team.
You know what I mean?
All those things add unduepressure on your shoulders And
if you don't recognize it,you'll fall into that place of
(32:11):
carrying that mantle.
And I'll give you an examplethat's more personal than
business, just to prove a point.
I was, this is my secondmarriage.
And I don't mind sharing this.
I mean, but because it's helpedme be a better man.
But with my first wife, she,you know, all of us carry a, a
(32:37):
little wagon of experiences andinto every relationship we have
of, I won't do that again.
And that ain't happening againon my watch, you know,
experiences.
And one of the things shebrought was this angst toward
men.
She'd been burned quite a fewtimes and hurt by men.
(32:57):
And I consider myself a goodman, but I was being constantly
penalized for what other mendid.
And so I kind of took it uponmyself to try to be this
Superman for all the wrongsevery other man in her past did.
(33:18):
And I got to tell you, Dr.
Neche, it is exhausting, right?
So not only was I beingpunished and penalized for
something that I had not done,it wasn't sustainable.
It was frustrating.
You know, I tried theunconditional love model of
Jesus.
I tried to be an understandinghusband.
(33:40):
And the bitterness got the bestof me.
You know, as a human, I failed.
I not only failed to fulfillthat image of a good man, I wind
up not being a good man.
You know, I actually, it almostbecame almost like a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
(34:00):
Wow.
You know, that when I faltered,it was like, see, I told you you
wasn't a good man.
Right.
And so what I learned when Ifound myself after the divorce
and I found who I was is that Ihad no business trying to take
on that mantle.
I have to be the best man I canbe and keep it at that and
(34:23):
honor my word.
Right.
And be the best I can be andcommit to what I can commit to
and and not try to be everythingfor everybody else.
And so taking it into theworkplace as leaders, I heard
something last week that was sopowerful because I still believe
in being mentored, even thoughI believe in mentoring.
(34:45):
Like,
Dr. Shay (34:46):
oh, absolutely.
James Bumpas (34:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it never stops.
Like.
That's the Owen Polish, by theway, objective mentoring, as you
saw in the chapter, is youcontinuously hone, you
continuously work and improve.
No one ever has it all puttogether.
And so one of the things Iheard last week from an advisor
(35:10):
was that as a leader, we thinkwe're supposed to solve
everything.
especially as we get higher andhigher, you know, especially
like senior manager, directorup.
We think when our team bring,bring us something, we're
supposed to interject and solve.
But in reality, we're supposedto actually serve almost like a
psychiatrist or a psychologist.
(35:32):
Like, well, what do you think?
What's the, you know, you'recloser to it than I am.
You're the subject matterexpert.
What would you, what do youthink should be done?
What are the best solutions?
And, and my engineeringmanager, um, taught me early in
my career come to me with threethree alternatives
Dr. Shay (35:50):
yes i heard someone else before today like if you
come to me with three problemsand also come with three
solutions yeah
James Bumpas (35:56):
and and and it was like three solutions for one
problem nine times out of ten istopped going to my manager
because i knew which of thethree were the were the best
option and i just i had i hadthe autonomy and power to
implement it so what happenedwas i got better and making
leadership decisions because Idid the work versus trying to
dump it on my boss's lap, right?
(36:17):
And it made me a better leaderas I moved up and I could pass
that knowledge and thatleadership lesson onto my team.
Because it does make you feelgood.
Like when you're a new leader,you want to be everything for
everybody.
Cause you're like, you wannademonstrate that, hey, I'm a
leader, I'm a good leader.
Let me show you how I can helpyou.
(36:37):
So in a mindset of beinghelpful, We can do too much for
people.
Exactly.
And hinder their progressbecause...
And hinder their progress.
Dr. Shay (36:49):
Yeah.
Wow.
I'm curious, again, given allyour experiences, how has your
definition of leadership evolvedover time?
James Bumpas (37:00):
Yeah.
Great question.
I kind of answered a piece ofthat in a previous response, but
now I'm learning when I was...
When I was in corporate beforeI formed my own business in
2021, I was much more of thethought leader, listening,
(37:21):
guiding, very in touch withpeople, but very situational
servant leader.
So never been a dictator, but Ican make a decision.
And I'm not afraid of making adecision with limited data.
You know, Six Sigma, I'vealways been the type to have
(37:45):
enough data to make a gooddecision.
And then when we get moreinformation, we pivot.
But analysis by paralysis orparalysis by analysis, no, no,
we're not going to do that.
We're not going to sit here andflounder.
So now I'm the type that Iexpect my team to do that, you
know?
And so I hold peopleaccountable without being, a
(38:09):
dictator or nasty, so to speak,you know, like holding my thumb
down on people or making themlook bad or, you know, I don't
have to beat my chest and say,hey, I'm the boss.
You know, I've had some leadersstruggle with my leadership
style when they're more like adictator because they felt like
they needed to know everything.
(38:30):
And I don't always feel like Ineed to know everything.
I know everything is goingwell.
I know the bottom lines.
I know my role.
I know that we're hitting thegoals and objectives.
And I know why we're hittingthem.
I'm not in the dark.
But I don't have to be asoftware developer to be a good
(38:54):
program manager.
Right, yeah.
And a lot of times when you seepeople ask for a CIO or a CTO,
If you read the job description,two lines down, they'll say,
must be able to code.
Why?
I've never been able.
I hated coding in college.
Hated it.
I knew right then I ain't gonnabe no developer or programmer.
(39:18):
You know, that's not clientfacing.
I like the people side ofthings.
I'm not going to be lockedbehind a door on a computer
coding.
And sliding the answer to worldhunger under the door and never
meeting the people I feed.
Dr. Shay (39:33):
Right.
I mean, it's so funny.
You know, my partner alwayssays, too, like he has a similar
philosophy where it's like he'sa leader who knows how to get
the right people in order to dothe job.
James Bumpas (39:46):
Yes.
Resourcefulness.
To me, that's a good CEO.
You don't have to knoweverything.
Like to me, you don't have toknow everything.
You just need to know the rightpeople.
You need to know where to go toget the answer.
Like when I was an intelligencespecialist, the admirals and
the colonels, they admired mebecause one or two things
happened.
Either I had the answer or Iknew how to get the answer.
(40:06):
How to get it.
And I followed up.
We had intelligent analysts whowould not follow up Dr.
Nishay.
They would say the right wordsin the briefing.
but they would not go get theresponse and follow up.
And they made the leader askagain.
I never did.
(40:26):
I was the king of follow up.
So that taught me how to betruly resourceful and close any
open doors or any gaps.
Like if there was a boss thatneeded information to make a
good decision, I made sure theyhad it.
Dr. Shay (40:42):
You know, everything you're saying is just, I think,
providing the definition thatseparates leadership management
and leadership.
I think there's an assumptionall the time that people in
management are natural leadersand that's rarely the case.
So many people are inmanagement positions who were
never taught any leadershipskills or don't have it
(41:03):
innately.
James Bumpas (41:04):
Yeah.
I'm glad you said that becauseI always look at management like
tasks and leadership aboutpeople.
Dr. Shay (41:11):
I like that.
I like that.
Absolutely.
James Bumpas (41:14):
I just find it that people who are proud
managers they go right past thepeople and ask, what tasks are
you doing?
So that they can micromanagethe tasks.
So to me, a leader will ask,what are your obstacles and what
(41:34):
are your impediments and whatdo you need for me?
But a micromanager or a managerwill say, what are you doing
today?
And start trying to get intothe weeds.
Yeah.
Oof, that's taken me to a darkplace.
Dr. Shay (41:53):
But wow, okay, that's amazing.
Remind us again, what's thename of your book?
Because you mentioned it acouple of times.
James Bumpas (41:59):
Yeah, the title of the book is called Triumph in
the Trenches, Navigating Successfor Black Professionals.
And I had the pleasure of notonly submitting and authoring a
chapter in that book, Dr.
Nishay, I had an opportunity topartner with the publisher, and
marketing manager, IlonaWashington, who is local here.
(42:22):
She's an indie publisher.
Amazing lady.
Look her up if you ever want towrite a book.
I recommend her highly toeverybody, but she's a
superstar.
But I also helped her edit.
Thanks to my background inintelligence and being an avid
reader, I had never written abook, but I've written a lot.
And so I was able to contributeby helping a lot of the other
(42:45):
authors properly tell theirstories.
story in a way to help usexpedite and get published on
time for Black History YearBefore Last.
And so it was extremelypowerful to do that and This
book resonated with so manypeople, allies included, of all
ethnicities, which was powerful.
Matter of fact, Australia istreating it as a reference for
(43:08):
anti-race campaigns, and that'spowerful.
We had Black people fromAustralia, UK, and all over the
US.
It wound up being, at the end,22 of us who contributed to the
book.
I say it was divine.
They just finished a secondchapter.
I opted out.
I was going to write a chapterabout leadership in the
(43:29):
military, to your point.
Yeah, I opted out for thatsecond volume because I had so
much going on.
I was burning a candle at bothends with my day job and my
consulting with my business thatI felt like adding a third
thing at the time was more aboutwanting to be a people pleaser
for the other authors and notnecessarily for myself.
(43:54):
So I backed out.
Dr. Shay (43:56):
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Well, yeah.
Thank you so much for tellingus about that.
I can't wait for your next bookthat comes out.
Can you let everyone know whereto follow you in your work?
James Bumpas (44:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So I am on LinkedIn.
I am on, and I will share thelink with you, but I am on
LinkedIn and my website isbtstriumphwithjames.com.
And don't hesitate to reach outto me.
All my contact information islisted on my website, including
the services that I offer.
Again, I do leadershipdevelopment, coaching,
(44:29):
professional speaking, and ITprogram and project management.
So I'm excited to partner withyou, Dr.
to Shay to get the word outthat, you know, we in this
thing, we doing it.
So thank you so much for thistime and sharing your platform
with me.
And I look forward to the nexttime we have a chance for a
great conversation.
Dr. Shay (44:49):
Me too.
Thank you so much.
James Bumpas (44:51):
Thank you.
Dr. Shay (44:51):
As always, thank you for joining me in the Resolution
Room.
If this conversation moved you,challenged you, or gave you
something to carry forward,consider supporting the show.
You can explore our wearablewisdom collection in our mind
shop, where each piece isdesigned to spark reflection and
(45:11):
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You can also join our growingcommunity for behind the scenes
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And if you just want to saythank you in a simple way, you
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All the links are in the shownotes.
(45:32):
And until next time, Keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest or human and more whole.
So let's get into it.
All right, James, can youintroduce yourself to the
audience, please?
James Bumpas (00:42):
I sure can, Dr.
Nashay.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I am James Maurice Bumpas.
I am founder and CEO of BumpusTechnical Services, and I
actually own an IT company, butI offer services around four
areas, IT program management andproject management.
(01:03):
I also do leadershipdevelopment, mentoring and
coaching and executive services.
And last but not least, I doprofessional speaking.
Dr. Shay (01:13):
Amazing, amazing.
So let's start off by talking alittle bit about your personal
experiences.
So can you share like an earlyexperience where you found
yourself being the only Blackprofessional in a workspace and
how that shaped yourperspective?
James Bumpas (01:30):
Sure, sure.
Thank you.
Actually, you know, born andraised in Tennessee, that
happens a lot.
I found at an early age I wasgifted in a technical
perspective, wound up inhigh-tech jobs.
I was an aviation electricianin the Navy, and there were not
a lot of aviation electriciansin the Navy that looked like me.
(01:52):
So Desert Shield, Desert Storm,I served 10 years in the Navy.
Setting myself apart wassomething I found challenging
for the overt and covert racismthat would occur in the service.
(02:14):
And so while they would professthat everybody was the same,
uniformity must prevail, therewere a lot of innuendos, a lot
of things said, a lot ofdifferences, hypocrisy in how
they would treat, my whitecounterparts versus me on having
(02:38):
to excel.
But when it came time for theexams, that was something I
found was truly uniform, wherebeing able to excel in the Navy
from an aviation electricianperspective, when you sit down
for your exam, It didn't matterwho you were.
Your knowledge, your studying,your ability to succeed in that
(03:05):
went back to your prep and yourexpertise in being able to make
rank.
Now, as you moved up throughthe ranks, it became more
subjective than objective.
So that's something that Iliked being able to say, I was
able to do it by my own merit upuntil you get into the higher
ranks when they start havingpanel reviews for you, which was
(03:30):
a lot more like the civiliancounterparts where it gets very
subjective and selective.
Dr. Shay (03:36):
Yeah.
Thank you for putting that inthe context too, because if I
can be candid, even deciding tohave this conversation on the
podcast, you know, gave me alittle pause because the
political climate and you haveto decide, am I willing to even
put myself out there to talkabout something like this?
But,
James Bumpas (03:53):
you
Dr. Shay (03:54):
know, everyone gets tired of talking about it.
I think more, more so ourselvesthan anybody else gets tired
James Bumpas (04:00):
of talking about it.
It can be exhausting.
You're right, Dr.
Nashay, but I got to tell you,I'm glad to have the
conversation.
I appreciate the, you know, theforum, the vehicle, the
opportunity to do so.
Cause a lot of times, you know,Sweeping it under a rug or not
having a conversation is notnecessarily always the right
solution either.
So I think talking about it andgetting it out there and then
(04:23):
doing it in a way that's moreconstructive than destructive is
the way to manage it.
Dr. Shay (04:28):
And this is why I'm talking to the right person
then, because I agree.
I think I want this episode tobe more informative than
anything.
I think, again, a lot ofassumptions can be made about
what other people are goingthrough.
But when you have someonegiving you just a perspective of
what their day-to-day lookslike, and it's things that you
will never have to experience,lucky for you, it's just helpful
(04:51):
for them to get that insight.
So Talk to me a little bitabout some of the invisible
dynamics people of color face inpredominantly white
professional environment.
James Bumpas (05:00):
Yeah, one of them is the whole, you're not like
most black people.
You know, when you start tohave allies and they befriend
you, they say things such as,and I say, when you say
invisible, I'll use one as ofthe level of uncomfortability in
(05:23):
the people that gravitatetowards you.
So if they consider themselvesfriends and allies, they'll say
things not even realizing thatit's racist or it's biased or
it's prejudiced in a sense thatthey feel like they're
connecting or they're giving youa compliment.
(05:46):
And I just gave you an examplein that, you know, you're one of
the good ones or you're notlike most black people.
And I'm like, oh, you know, youknow a lot of black people, do
you?
You know, and I'm like, I'llsay things and challenge them on
that dynamic of what that biasis, like what their mindset is
(06:06):
on what most black people arelike, you know, and challenge
those type of mindsets.
That's one.
The other one I findilluminating to me are the
jokes, you know, the racialjokes when they say, don't be
offended or, you know, I'm goingto tell a joke.
(06:27):
And and they set it up as apreamble, as if with their
little disclaimer that it's OKto be racist because, hey, it's
a joke.
And as I matured in the schoolsystems and college and in the
military, and especially inhigh-tech environments where I
was truly, like you said, theonly person of color in the
(06:51):
room, especially as a black man.
And I won't say only person ofcolor, because as I.T.
as I.T.
continues to evolve, there area lot of people from the Middle
East and from Southwest Asia inthe room and Asian.
But black wise, I was the onlyone in the room.
But they would say things like,I'm going to tell a joke.
(07:12):
And, you know, because I issuedthis disclaimer, it's OK.
So don't take offense.
So I got to where I would stopthem.
I would say, if you have toissue this little disclaimer,
don't even tell me the jokebecause I'm not going to find it
funny if you have to single meout and say, don't be offended.
I said, I don't even want tohear the joke.
And that took courage because alot of times you don't want to
(07:39):
have to make a scene or you wantto go along and get along in
some cases.
But I found that the people whowould tell those jokes, you
know, that was...
a way to let racism in and callit a joke.
And so I call it passiveaggressive, you know, a passive
aggressive behavior ormicroaggression in a sense.
(08:03):
So I would, I stop it.
Like being a leader from themilitary all the way forward,
not only would I not condonehearing it, I would condone
hearing it from my team.
So, you know, I would kind ofset a tone for conversations
that would be very well-roundedor accepting of everyone.
Dr. Shay (08:24):
Amazing.
And that's what leadership is,right?
Modeling what you want
James Bumpas (08:27):
to see.
And unfortunately, a lot oftimes you stand alone because
you get that from your peerleadership team.
Dr. Shay (08:32):
Very true.
Very true.
I'm curious from just yourpersonal experiences, which
you've studied in yourbackground, how do you
differentiate between racism andprejudice?
James Bumpas (08:47):
Yeah, very good question.
I'm hearing a lot about this alot lately.
And I think racist is when yourprejudice allows you to be in a
position of power and you canhold it over and actually
negatively impact another personof a different ethnicity or
your belief system is differentthan theirs.
So racism is about power.
(09:10):
Like I can be prejudicedbecause I'm different than
another person or I don't likehow they treat me or others.
Or I don't I don't like thembecause I'm biased and I'm
different than another person.
Everybody has biases.
But if I'm in a position ofleadership like I am now as a
CEO, you know, and I have awhite person on my team and I'm
(09:32):
using that prejudice.
to make them feel lesser or tosingle them out and oppress
them, then I'm a racist in thatparticular case, in that
dynamic.
So the power dynamic outside ofmy company, most times, You
know, the system, especiallyhere in the United States or the
(09:53):
UK or any system built uponslavery or the systems that's in
place like the United States issuch that we don't have the
power to hold down anotheranother people.
Dr. Shay (10:07):
OK, so what I'm hearing is it sounds like racism
is more at the systemicinstitutional level and
prejudice sounds like it's moreat the individual level.
Relational level.
James Bumpas (10:18):
Yeah.
And also power.
Like if I can have if I can ifI can use my influence and
position over another person,then then yes.
At the micro level, like in mycase, I'm an entrepreneur.
And let's say I have a staff offive people and I'm using my
(10:39):
prejudice and my biases tonegatively impact or oppress
another person on my team.
then at that micro level, Icould be considered in that
bubble, in that boundary to be aracist.
However, in the system, thesystem of things in the United
States, it's typically gonna bethe people that's had the system
(11:03):
built around them to oppressand hold back.
So yes, systematically it'sbeen designed for the majority
population.
That's my opinion.
Dr. Shay (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so when we're talkingabout, again, we'll stick to
like workplace dynamics, Iguess.
How do you distinguish betweenfitting in and belonging?
James Bumpas (11:34):
Ah, very good question.
Belonging is such that it'snatural.
Fitting in, you're making aconscious decision to set aside
your belief system, your mindsetor thought process and you're
not necessarily as comfortable,but you're there, you're in the
space, you're physically in theroom, but you can feel alone in
(11:55):
a room full of people, that'sfitting in.
That's when you're like, okay,I don't really agree with what's
being said, or I don't agreewith what's being done, but I'm
here, I have access.
Belonging is one where I'm notonly in the room, I'm aligned
with the mission, vision, valuestatements.
(12:15):
I'm contributing.
I feel like I'm valued by theresources in the room, whether
they are peers, whether they arejunior to me by seniority, or
whether they are senior to me.
So belonging is one where whatI brought to the table is able
(12:36):
to assist in the organization tomake a difference.
and I'm being called on for myexpertise and vice versa.
Dr. Shay (12:46):
And so building on that, thinking about balancing
authenticity and adaptability,when we talk about code
switching, I'm curious how youapproach that in a way that
protects your energy andidentity.
But I do wanna, I will pointthat even outside of just the
workplace or black whitedynamics, Code switching, how I
(13:07):
was actually introduced to it.
I have a handful of Africanfriends who I love to death.
And when I first, so that whenI'm with them, you would think
they're born and raised inAtlanta.
And then when I go to their,meet their families and I'm
like, who are you?
Like the way you start talkingchanges, the way you move
changes.
It is insane to me.
(13:28):
One of my closest friends isfrom Congo.
And, um, When
James Bumpas (13:32):
I first saw her, I'll tell you in a minute, we'll
go ahead.
Dr. Shay (13:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when I first saw her, youknow, she took me to her church
for a weekend, predominantly,you know, uh, African community.
And I was like, where am I?
I've known her for like 10years and I've never seen
James Bumpas (13:48):
her.
Yeah.
I think, I think code switchingis a survival mechanism.
I think, um, I think we do itautomatically, um, as a survival
mechanism and also from arelatability perspective, like,
um, I'm born and raised here inTennessee as a good example.
However, you notice I don'thave a Tennessee twang.
(14:08):
On certain words, you will hearit, but if you had my brothers
in the room or my parents orpeople who never left my
hometown, their dialect's verycountry.
That's a good example.
And also, As you progress upthe education chains, you being
a doctor, you get this.
How you speak professionally,me being a professional speaker,
(14:29):
how you handle yourself in acorporate setting, that's a form
of code switching as well,where you have to talk the lingo
and you have to carry yourselfin a certain manner.
But the cultural code switchingis unique in the sense that
I've been in environments whereI wasn't quote unquote black
enough, and I've been inenvironments where I was too
(14:50):
black.
And what I had to learn as Icontinued to mature and get to
know who I was is that I'mextremely comfortable in the
skin I'm in now.
But when I was younger, thatwas a struggle.
you know, of who am I, youknow, that identity crisis.
And, you know, that has to dowith my faith.
That has to do with knowing whoI am, what I bring to the table
(15:13):
and just, you know, learning tobe patient and understanding
that I got to be who I am.
So I know who I am.
So I'm, I'm not sendingcontradictory messages, you
know, and a lot of it happened,Dr.
Neshea, when I became a parent,because I, You know, I couldn't
very well tell my children tobe comfortable in who they are.
(15:35):
And then I'm the one switchingand pivoting and being, what I'm
trying to say, like all overthe place with my personality
trying to fit in.
So, you know, like you mentionedAfrican.
I've done my ancestry throughafricanancestry.com and also
(16:00):
through ancestry.com.
I'm actually from Congo.
Really?
Yeah.
I got a percentage from Congo.
I got a percentage from theCameroon, Rwandan area, the
whole slave Ivory Coast,naturally.
A lot of us came through thatdirection, but I have Congo in
me as well.
(16:20):
So it's funny that that's thefirst country you mentioned from
the continent of Africa.
But you're right.
I have a lot of African friendsand friends I call them family
because we got familyeverywhere.
Right.
And and some of them don't likeus because we don't show who we
(16:41):
truly are.
And I try to explain to them wedon't know who we truly are
because our histories werestolen and we've been fed in
this country with a lot of falseinformation.
false history.
You know, history is told bythe victor.
Victor, not the victim, so tospeak.
So, you know, with theinformation age, we are
(17:05):
relearning our history.
And even some of the Africansfrom the northern part of Africa
were misled.
It was a major misinformationcampaign that we left on our
own, you know.
So I had some people fromnorthern Africa that I met in
Israel treat me harshly as anAfrican-American, you know, or a
(17:28):
black man, because theythought, you know, they were
told by the European settlers,their ancestors generations ago,
people that they love, youknow?
So what do you do when yourparents or your parents' parents
tell you that, you know, theAfrican people left on their
own, you know?
And so that gave me a differentdynamic from being upset with
(17:51):
some of the Africans thattreated us funny.
And so I know that wasn't all.
But when you look at theEuropeans who just want to
continue trading with the NorthAfrican countries, they were
looking at it from a commerceperspective, passing poor
information, you know, and I'mnot making excuses.
(18:12):
This is just what I found out,you know, through my travels,
being able to travelinternationally.
And I found that interesting.
I found that history, yetagain, something that I had
never learned growing up.
So it doesn't, in my opinion,give Africans or North Africans
(18:32):
the right to mistreat or judgeus, by and large, to be taking
against our will as chattelslavery in the United States.
But it's a real situation withthe whole idea of how do I fit
in and how do I code switch tofit the situation?
(18:54):
I like the videos my wife willshow me walking through on
TikTok.
She'll just say, hey, checkthis out.
And some of them are funnywhere you'll see like a black
person walk into a coffeelounge.
And depending on who theyengage with, they literally
switch how they engage on thefly.
(19:14):
And so Keegan Peele was one ofthe comedy shows I always liked.
And they show Keegan Peele dothat so smoothly when he was
playing Barack Obama aspresident.
I don't know if you've seenthat skit, but it tickled me
where he was like, when heengaged with Black people, he
(19:36):
was dapping them up and doing,hey, pleasure to meet you,
pleasure to meet you.
And then he's like, what's up,what's up?
But I just love that because mywife tells me all the time, and
I didn't notice it until shebrought it.
She's Mexican.
She's of Mexican descent.
And she says, I love how Blackpeople greet each other.
You know, she said, you alllook at each other and you say,
it's like, it's almost unheardof the way you look.
(19:59):
You say, I see you.
And we'll smile and we'll nodto each other or we'll speak in
a way like, like, good to seeyou, brother, you know, good to
see you, sister.
And it's this family, thisfamilial connection.
And she said, we don't do that.
You know, you know, she's fromTexas and she'll say, we don't
do that.
I said, well, you do differentthings that I see that's very
(20:21):
family based, you know.
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (20:23):
And
James Bumpas (20:26):
so now how like the things that I admire in her
culture, when she said, you'reright, you're right.
We do that and we do this.
And like, she's very close withher sisters and her brother.
They just have such a tightunit and they've welcomed me in
as her husband into that tightfamily.
Dr. Shay (20:41):
That's amazing.
Yeah.
And, you know, there's so muchyou said I could unpack, but
that would be a completelydifferent episode.
Yeah.
But I will say, as far as thecode switching, I think to a
certain extent, too, there's,you know, it gets a negative
connotation or association withit.
I mean, there's a time andplace sometimes because, like
(21:01):
you said, there's nothing wrongto me with being adaptable.
I mean, different situationscall for different things.
James Bumpas (21:09):
You know, and it's a quality.
It's a characteristic that wehold in high regard, especially
as you move up the leadershipladder.
chain in your organizations orin your own when you when you
have a company and you have toengage with people with
different cultures and differentmindsets different backgrounds
and so you know socioeconomiceducation all the different ways
(21:29):
you know like me and you as anexample i would i would be
remiss to assume that there'snot diversity amongst me and
you.
And I need to be, I don't wantto assume, right?
I don't want to assumeanything.
And so I want to approach youproperly and be respectful and
not come up, what's up girl?
(21:50):
And all this, like, I don'tknow you're up, you know what I
mean?
And sometimes you'll see ittoo.
You'll see some people getoffended If you approach them
too casually and they look likeus.
Right.
Dr. Shay (22:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Case by case, you know, likewe're all individuals as well.
So absolutely.
So talk to me a little bitabout what strategies have
helped you stay grounded inspaces that expect you to
conform.
James Bumpas (22:16):
Yeah.
Good point.
Number one, my faith, my wife,remembering who I am.
One of the things my parents,it's funny.
I'm knocking on 54, right?
Dr.
Neshea, I'll be 54 in August.
And I think what's funny, thankyou.
I think what's funny is advicemy parents gave me at 17 years
(22:38):
old.
You know, like here I amleaving for bootcamp and my dad
told me one thing and my momtold me one thing and it wasn't
at the same time.
But right before I left, lefthome at 17, my dad said, always
have thick skin.
And my mom said, always bewilling to talk to people.
And so those two together at ayoung age really helped mold and
(23:03):
become almost a mantra for mein a sense of being able to
engage with any and everybody,even people I knew were racist
and they were proud of it.
And like I say, the servicethrows you all together and you
gotta make it work.
And so some people were verybold about it, but they were
willing to talk And noteverything they said was worth
(23:25):
hearing, naturally, but I waswilling to listen and not always
get so emotionally hijacked bywhat they were saying.
And it was a guy in my bootcamp in my company from West
Virginia.
And doctor didn't say I foundhim staring at me so many times.
It was awkward.
(23:45):
Like, what's up with this guy?
You know, like, he was staringat me.
And so finally, I approachedhim.
I said, hey, man, why you keepstaring at me?
And he was like, look, man, I'mfrom a small town in West
Virginia.
By the way, this is 1989.
I want to put it inperspective.
He says, in my small town, wehave one other Black family.
(24:07):
And you're nothing like mygrandmother said.
So here he is, raised by hisgrandmother, who went to New
York, had a horrible experience,right?
And poured all this negativityabout black people into her
(24:27):
grandson who then joins the Navyand he meets me and he's willing
to say that to me.
And I didn't know how to acceptit, but being from Tennessee,
growing up where you're theminority with a lot of white
people all around you, you know,I was like taking a back a
(24:49):
little bit, but then he openedup and we, we wound up having a
lot in common.
He was willing to reach out.
We wound up being, we bothboxed back then.
My dad was a golden gloves inthe Vietnam era of army.
And, uh, he boxed, he taughtall his boys how to box.
It was three of us.
I'm the middleman.
And, uh, And so this guy,Rodney, he boxed.
(25:13):
And so we kind of connected onthat, you know.
And so we would train togetherin the evenings and in our own
little time.
But the bottom line is in twoshort, you know, two and a half
short months, three months ofboot camp, you know, I totally
changed his opinion.
It wasn't the intent.
(25:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It was just being me, you know.
And so...
What I learned from that earlywas continue to be yourself to
your point, staying grounded,being willing to talk, having
thick skin, not being so easilyoffended, but also standing your
(25:55):
ground.
Don't roll over to fit in andbe abused by people.
Like I've never liked bullies.
Like, you know, I thought a lotgrowing up.
And now I fight with my brainlike corporate bullies and
people who have positions ofpower like the police or like
politicians or like people inpositions of leadership over you
(26:19):
in the workplace.
You know, that office bullyingand workplace mobbing, you know,
those are my targets now whenthey target and identify people
who are aren't necessarilystrong enough to stand up for
themselves.
And so I find myself with thatprotector spirit getting between
(26:44):
them and the people they'rebullying.
And so I find that the reason Ifocus so much on leadership as
it came out in my chapter in thebook that I became published on
was by good leadership and badleadership, I find that there's
a leadership deficit and it'shorrible across the world, the
(27:07):
globe.
And I found that that's thegift that God gave me to focus
on and dig into and learn.
So when people ask me, is agood leader made or is he born?
And I say, yes.
Both?
Yeah, both, because you have tocontinue to hone your craft.
(27:29):
You know, it's not all just Godgiven talent.
You also have to stay abreastof new techniques to engage with
people and meet them where theyare, you know, around the
introvert extrovert modelaround, you know, predictive
index around all the differenttools and techniques to allow
you to be successful and allowyour teams to be successful.
(27:50):
But all those aspects help mestay grounded and connected.
with people.
And remember that all peopleare leaders in their own house,
in their own homes every day.
And so meeting them where theyare and treat them with dignity
and respect is paramount.
Dr. Shay (28:08):
Amazing.
Yes.
That's so many things I want totouch on, but I'll start here.
Going back to the power of thestories that are handed down to
us that aren't even our own.
and how they become what leadsus.
That part really stuck with mebecause, again, I think that
happens so much where you findyourself, you almost wake up
(28:30):
maybe in your 30s or so, and youstart for the first time really
examining why you believeanything you believe, and you
realize half the time you don'tknow.
You were just taught that.
James Bumpas (28:41):
Yeah, and for me, it happened in the 20s because
of my military experience.
And when you have threats...
against your life at an earlyage, you do examine yourself
earlier.
You know, like whether it's thestreet life or the military
life or any situations ofdanger, you know, if given the
(29:05):
chance, a lot of people willanalyze or evaluate their life
at that point in time.
And so I did it earlier than alot of people did.
You know, like my kids, I saymy kids, my daughter, who's the
oldest, you know, she's 32 andshe's just now doing that.
Whereas my son who's, who justturned 29, he did nine years in
(29:29):
the army.
And so he's a bit more maturein this way of assessing his
life.
He's immature in other ways,but this, but the army kind of
accelerates that where you, youknow, that identity, who am I,
what am I about?
You know, what do I care about?
What I believe in?
In some ways, he's very stillimmature in that space.
(29:50):
Yeah.
In other ways, you know, thatthat morality, mortality
conversation you have insideyour head and start figuring it
out.
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (29:58):
Yeah, I like that.
And I actually want to have,I'll probably have to have you
back one later for a differentdiscussion about just military
because I actually, I haven'treleased it yet, but there's an
episode I'm going to remind youwhen it's out to listen to.
I interviewed another militaryguy who's also doing leadership
coaching.
And I would love for the two ofyou guys to hear two different.
Oh, that'd be nice.
Yeah, that would be reallyinteresting.
(30:19):
So, We kind of talked a littlebit earlier about, you know,
even those within the samecommunity, we have our
differences as well.
We're individuals.
So how do you and yourexperience sort of advocate for
representation withoutshouldering the burden of being
the spokesperson for an entirecommunity?
James Bumpas (30:39):
Well said.
Wow.
That's a mouthful.
Me and my wife talk about itall the time.
With her being Latina, she saysall the time, you know, as a
joke, well, when I go back to mypeople meeting, you know, when
we gather all my people, I'll besure to announce this at the
next meeting.
And we joke because, you know,I would do us a disservice as a
(31:02):
Black man if I ever thought Iwas speaking for anyone other
than myself.
So, I actually now tee it up assuch.
Anytime someone asks me aquestion, like why do you all
fill in the blank?
I make sure that when I answer,they understand I'm answering
(31:25):
from my perspective, myexperiences, the things I've
been through in my life and howI see things.
But to your point,representation does matter
because I don't want them tolean on me for that.
Especially as you move up inthe leadership ranks.
(31:47):
And I know it's taboo, but atoken.
I don't wanna be the only blackon the leadership team.
I don't wanna be the only manon the leadership team.
You know what I mean?
All those things add unduepressure on your shoulders And
if you don't recognize it,you'll fall into that place of
(32:11):
carrying that mantle.
And I'll give you an examplethat's more personal than
business, just to prove a point.
I was, this is my secondmarriage.
And I don't mind sharing this.
I mean, but because it's helpedme be a better man.
But with my first wife, she,you know, all of us carry a, a
(32:37):
little wagon of experiences andinto every relationship we have
of, I won't do that again.
And that ain't happening againon my watch, you know,
experiences.
And one of the things shebrought was this angst toward
men.
She'd been burned quite a fewtimes and hurt by men.
(32:57):
And I consider myself a goodman, but I was being constantly
penalized for what other mendid.
And so I kind of took it uponmyself to try to be this
Superman for all the wrongsevery other man in her past did.
(33:18):
And I got to tell you, Dr.
Neche, it is exhausting, right?
So not only was I beingpunished and penalized for
something that I had not done,it wasn't sustainable.
It was frustrating.
You know, I tried theunconditional love model of
Jesus.
I tried to be an understandinghusband.
(33:40):
And the bitterness got the bestof me.
You know, as a human, I failed.
I not only failed to fulfillthat image of a good man, I wind
up not being a good man.
You know, I actually, it almostbecame almost like a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
(34:00):
Wow.
You know, that when I faltered,it was like, see, I told you you
wasn't a good man.
Right.
And so what I learned when Ifound myself after the divorce
and I found who I was is that Ihad no business trying to take
on that mantle.
I have to be the best man I canbe and keep it at that and
(34:23):
honor my word.
Right.
And be the best I can be andcommit to what I can commit to
and and not try to be everythingfor everybody else.
And so taking it into theworkplace as leaders, I heard
something last week that was sopowerful because I still believe
in being mentored, even thoughI believe in mentoring.
(34:45):
Like,
Dr. Shay (34:46):
oh, absolutely.
James Bumpas (34:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it never stops.
Like.
That's the Owen Polish, by theway, objective mentoring, as you
saw in the chapter, is youcontinuously hone, you
continuously work and improve.
No one ever has it all puttogether.
And so one of the things Iheard last week from an advisor
(35:10):
was that as a leader, we thinkwe're supposed to solve
everything.
especially as we get higher andhigher, you know, especially
like senior manager, directorup.
We think when our team bring,bring us something, we're
supposed to interject and solve.
But in reality, we're supposedto actually serve almost like a
psychiatrist or a psychologist.
(35:32):
Like, well, what do you think?
What's the, you know, you'recloser to it than I am.
You're the subject matterexpert.
What would you, what do youthink should be done?
What are the best solutions?
And, and my engineeringmanager, um, taught me early in
my career come to me with threethree alternatives
Dr. Shay (35:50):
yes i heard someone else before today like if you
come to me with three problemsand also come with three
solutions yeah
James Bumpas (35:56):
and and and it was like three solutions for one
problem nine times out of ten istopped going to my manager
because i knew which of thethree were the were the best
option and i just i had i hadthe autonomy and power to
implement it so what happenedwas i got better and making
leadership decisions because Idid the work versus trying to
dump it on my boss's lap, right?
(36:17):
And it made me a better leaderas I moved up and I could pass
that knowledge and thatleadership lesson onto my team.
Because it does make you feelgood.
Like when you're a new leader,you want to be everything for
everybody.
Cause you're like, you wannademonstrate that, hey, I'm a
leader, I'm a good leader.
Let me show you how I can helpyou.
(36:37):
So in a mindset of beinghelpful, We can do too much for
people.
Exactly.
And hinder their progressbecause...
And hinder their progress.
Dr. Shay (36:49):
Yeah.
Wow.
I'm curious, again, given allyour experiences, how has your
definition of leadership evolvedover time?
James Bumpas (37:00):
Yeah.
Great question.
I kind of answered a piece ofthat in a previous response, but
now I'm learning when I was...
When I was in corporate beforeI formed my own business in
2021, I was much more of thethought leader, listening,
(37:21):
guiding, very in touch withpeople, but very situational
servant leader.
So never been a dictator, but Ican make a decision.
And I'm not afraid of making adecision with limited data.
You know, Six Sigma, I'vealways been the type to have
(37:45):
enough data to make a gooddecision.
And then when we get moreinformation, we pivot.
But analysis by paralysis orparalysis by analysis, no, no,
we're not going to do that.
We're not going to sit here andflounder.
So now I'm the type that Iexpect my team to do that, you
know?
And so I hold peopleaccountable without being, a
(38:09):
dictator or nasty, so to speak,you know, like holding my thumb
down on people or making themlook bad or, you know, I don't
have to beat my chest and say,hey, I'm the boss.
You know, I've had some leadersstruggle with my leadership
style when they're more like adictator because they felt like
they needed to know everything.
(38:30):
And I don't always feel like Ineed to know everything.
I know everything is goingwell.
I know the bottom lines.
I know my role.
I know that we're hitting thegoals and objectives.
And I know why we're hittingthem.
I'm not in the dark.
But I don't have to be asoftware developer to be a good
(38:54):
program manager.
Right, yeah.
And a lot of times when you seepeople ask for a CIO or a CTO,
If you read the job description,two lines down, they'll say,
must be able to code.
Why?
I've never been able.
I hated coding in college.
Hated it.
I knew right then I ain't gonnabe no developer or programmer.
(39:18):
You know, that's not clientfacing.
I like the people side ofthings.
I'm not going to be lockedbehind a door on a computer
coding.
And sliding the answer to worldhunger under the door and never
meeting the people I feed.
Dr. Shay (39:33):
Right.
I mean, it's so funny.
You know, my partner alwayssays, too, like he has a similar
philosophy where it's like he'sa leader who knows how to get
the right people in order to dothe job.
James Bumpas (39:46):
Yes.
Resourcefulness.
To me, that's a good CEO.
You don't have to knoweverything.
Like to me, you don't have toknow everything.
You just need to know the rightpeople.
You need to know where to go toget the answer.
Like when I was an intelligencespecialist, the admirals and
the colonels, they admired mebecause one or two things
happened.
Either I had the answer or Iknew how to get the answer.
(40:06):
How to get it.
And I followed up.
We had intelligent analysts whowould not follow up Dr.
Nishay.
They would say the right wordsin the briefing.
but they would not go get theresponse and follow up.
And they made the leader askagain.
I never did.
(40:26):
I was the king of follow up.
So that taught me how to betruly resourceful and close any
open doors or any gaps.
Like if there was a boss thatneeded information to make a
good decision, I made sure theyhad it.
Dr. Shay (40:42):
You know, everything you're saying is just, I think,
providing the definition thatseparates leadership management
and leadership.
I think there's an assumptionall the time that people in
management are natural leadersand that's rarely the case.
So many people are inmanagement positions who were
never taught any leadershipskills or don't have it
(41:03):
innately.
James Bumpas (41:04):
Yeah.
I'm glad you said that becauseI always look at management like
tasks and leadership aboutpeople.
Dr. Shay (41:11):
I like that.
I like that.
Absolutely.
James Bumpas (41:14):
I just find it that people who are proud
managers they go right past thepeople and ask, what tasks are
you doing?
So that they can micromanagethe tasks.
So to me, a leader will ask,what are your obstacles and what
(41:34):
are your impediments and whatdo you need for me?
But a micromanager or a managerwill say, what are you doing
today?
And start trying to get intothe weeds.
Yeah.
Oof, that's taken me to a darkplace.
Dr. Shay (41:53):
But wow, okay, that's amazing.
Remind us again, what's thename of your book?
Because you mentioned it acouple of times.
James Bumpas (41:59):
Yeah, the title of the book is called Triumph in
the Trenches, Navigating Successfor Black Professionals.
And I had the pleasure of notonly submitting and authoring a
chapter in that book, Dr.
Nishay, I had an opportunity topartner with the publisher, and
marketing manager, IlonaWashington, who is local here.
(42:22):
She's an indie publisher.
Amazing lady.
Look her up if you ever want towrite a book.
I recommend her highly toeverybody, but she's a
superstar.
But I also helped her edit.
Thanks to my background inintelligence and being an avid
reader, I had never written abook, but I've written a lot.
And so I was able to contributeby helping a lot of the other
(42:45):
authors properly tell theirstories.
story in a way to help usexpedite and get published on
time for Black History YearBefore Last.
And so it was extremelypowerful to do that and This
book resonated with so manypeople, allies included, of all
ethnicities, which was powerful.
Matter of fact, Australia istreating it as a reference for
(43:08):
anti-race campaigns, and that'spowerful.
We had Black people fromAustralia, UK, and all over the
US.
It wound up being, at the end,22 of us who contributed to the
book.
I say it was divine.
They just finished a secondchapter.
I opted out.
I was going to write a chapterabout leadership in the
(43:29):
military, to your point.
Yeah, I opted out for thatsecond volume because I had so
much going on.
I was burning a candle at bothends with my day job and my
consulting with my business thatI felt like adding a third
thing at the time was more aboutwanting to be a people pleaser
for the other authors and notnecessarily for myself.
(43:54):
So I backed out.
Dr. Shay (43:56):
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Well, yeah.
Thank you so much for tellingus about that.
I can't wait for your next bookthat comes out.
Can you let everyone know whereto follow you in your work?
James Bumpas (44:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So I am on LinkedIn.
I am on, and I will share thelink with you, but I am on
LinkedIn and my website isbtstriumphwithjames.com.
And don't hesitate to reach outto me.
All my contact information islisted on my website, including
the services that I offer.
Again, I do leadershipdevelopment, coaching,
(44:29):
professional speaking, and ITprogram and project management.
So I'm excited to partner withyou, Dr.
to Shay to get the word outthat, you know, we in this
thing, we doing it.
So thank you so much for thistime and sharing your platform
with me.
And I look forward to the nexttime we have a chance for a
great conversation.
Dr. Shay (44:49):
Me too.
Thank you so much.
James Bumpas (44:51):
Thank you.
Dr. Shay (44:51):
As always, thank you for joining me in the Resolution
Room.
If this conversation moved you,challenged you, or gave you
something to carry forward,consider supporting the show.
You can explore our wearablewisdom collection in our mind
shop, where each piece isdesigned to spark reflection and
(45:11):
dialogue.
You can also join our growingcommunity for behind the scenes
conversations, resources, andsupport of your own journey
through tension andtransformation.
And if you just want to saythank you in a simple way, you
can always buy me a coffee.
Every gesture helps keep thisspace going.
All the links are in the shownotes.
(45:32):
And until next time, Keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
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